This is not a "war", it is a pogrom in a ghetto, the Gaza ghetto is like the Warsaw ghetto.

[Fred Sanders]

Last edited Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:34 PM - Edit history (2)

.....................

EDIT:

We are not alone:


"A Pew Research Center poll released Monday showed that a plurality of Democrats across the country, 35 percent, and liberals, 44 percent, said that Israel had “gone too far” in its response to its conflict with Hamas. Meanwhile 47 percent of Democrats told Gallup that Israel’s actions during the current conflict were “unjustified,” compared to just 31 percent who thought the opposite."

To be ignored and sent to jury.......ignored in the media, ignored by our own progressive heroes.....

-------------------------------


Israelis want a "final solution", having apparently forgotten their own history.

War is between relatively equal sides, no war ends up with 1300 civilians killed on one side and 2 on the other, anyone care to weigh in on the math?

Meanwhile cowardly American politicians hide behind chest beating symbolic votes and ship more ammo to Israel as a gift, hoping to keep their fundraising intact and not be attacked by the compliant media...as hundreds of children are torn part limb by limb in their sleep as they
lay in "protected" UN shelters.

As evil as the slaughter is the evil of the American media advancing evil lies and war crimes by the dozens. The human shield argument is so lame as to be a war crime itself, but criminals always have their own sick mind justifications, do they not?

Did you get the part where Israel gets to or has to, I have not figured that out yet, to buy more ammo and weapons.....directly from the American manufacturers? Because the hereto before secret stash of a billion dollars already in Israel, provided by you as a taxpayer, is not enough. Not enough to continue the killing at the pace Bibi wants. How sick is that!

America and Israel belong on the same psych ward, and in the same courtroom.

And yes, I am directly attacking Israel. Israel is wrong and the dead children are dead right, so take me to the jury for my whipping, I am man enough to defend myself and the dead at the same time.

[get the red out]

1. That way of seeing it hadn't occurred to me

But it is true. So ironic and sad.

[Archae]

2. Bullshit.

Hamas is at war with all Jews.

But go ahead and post some more pro-Hamas propaganda.

[Fred Sanders]

3. How many Israeli children dead? Math is not propaganda, never is, oh heartless one!?

[Bluenorthwest]

10. Anyone who claims either side is free of the blood of children is an exploiter of dead children.

nt

[Fred Sanders]

12. Israel is free of the blood of children, even as it flows like wine in the Gaza Ghetto. Any evidence

otherwise this past month? Even a scratch on a child not in the Ghetto?

Nope.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. Anyone who claims either side is free of the blood of children is an exploiter of dead children.

nt

[frylock]

27. a simple question was posed to you

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. so, Hamas' inability to achieve their goal of Israeli civilian casualties

despite having fired about 1000 rockets into purely civilian targets (well, the devices aren't really 'aimed') makes everything ok in your mind?

sP

[frylock]

145. never said that..

in fact I condemn those acts. do you condemn the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians, or is that just the cost of doing business?

[sulphurdunn]

165. The Palestinians aren't nearly as proficient

at killing Israelis as Israelis are at killing them. Neither are Palestinian rockets effective weapons of war relative to the armor, artillery and aircraft that have been pounding Gaza to rubble in retaliation for rockets that rarely hit anything.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

170. so, again, because they suck at killing Israelis

they should be allowed to continue firing rockets into civilian areas?

sP

[sulphurdunn]

178. If the Israelis lift the blockade

of Gaza, end the occupation of the West Bank, accept the Palestinian's right to exist within their own state as was agreed to in its charter and either withdraws from or places its West Bank settlements under Palestinian governance, I'm confident the rockets will stop.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

197. if you believe that the attacks would stop

you are not paying attention...

sP

[sulphurdunn]

204. Why wouldn't they?

Do you really believe that the Palestinians hate the Israelis so much that they'd pass up a chance for a homeland and peace just so they could continue being slaughtered by them?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

205. yes... Hamas hates them that much n/t

[sulphurdunn]

207. Considering what's been going on

for the last 65 years, I can see why they might, but I doubt it. Very few people really want to sacrifice their children on the altar of their own hatreds, especially if the choice is that or a better life, and that goes for the Israelis too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

213. The West Bank is mostly peaceful

Fatah gave up on destroying Israel. Hamas has that as part of it's charter. You noticed you mostly have heard nada out of the West Bank.

Let me fill a couple holes. There have been peaceful protests in the West Bank in support of civilians. Yes, a couple border police got more than just out of hand, but wonder why you have heard nada from the West Bank?

There are rumors of very serious anger at Hamas in Gaza...they are becoming a tad more concrete, but Hamas might face a very angry local population. One reason, the leadership is safely underground in sophisticated shelters. Far more sophisticated than, for example, the ad hock pipes that dot Israel and are fairly effective.

[frylock]

253. the rockets stopped for nearly 2 years

[dsc]

221. so what have gay folk done to the likes of Hamas

in case you are wondering, Hamas also wants to kill all gays.

[sulphurdunn]

234. Hell, I have neighbors

who want to kill all the gays. What's the point again?

[dsc]

239. you say that if Israel just did what Hamas wants then Hamas wouldn't want to kill them

so why, oh why, does Hamas wish to kill gays? Gays didn't take their land, gays didn't invade Gaza, gays didn't bomb any tunnels yet they are on record as wanting to kill all gays. So again, why should we think Hamas will change their opinion of Jews if Israel changes its behavior?

[sulphurdunn]

246. Hamas can want to kill all the Jews

and gays it wants, but that is never going to happen. Furthermore, there are Israeli parties that want to do pretty much the same thing to the Palestinians, gay or not. You argument is irrelevant to the issue at hand. It is a straw man.

[sabrina 1]

142. Some questions are too hard to answer. Thankfully no Israeli children have died, yet. However

if Israel's Cheney has his way, this will only escalate and more tragic deaths will occur, perhaps in Israel.

People of good conscience don't play tit for tat with dead children. Especially when there is zero on one side to back up that particularly reprehensible game.

Whoever starts a conflict bears the responsibility of all of its consequences. It is clear as day who started this one, under false pretenses, and why.

[frylock]

254. yes, i agree that is something we can all be thankful for

[Billy Budd]

91. how many Israel children

have been slaughtered and how many Palestinians ...I think its zero Israeli children vs many many dozens of exterminated Palestinians little kids...like the four boys on the beach...I hope my posting privileges are not suspended for this post...

[stevenleser]

93. A quick google will tell you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Effects

Missiles, rockets and mortars have killed 28 people within Israel as of 17 July 2014.[1] Most of those killed were civilians, including children.[19] The first casualties from the rocket fire were a 4-year-old boy and his grandfather, who were killed in June 2004.[136] Other victims include two small children, aged 2 and 4, who were killed while playing in the street later that same year,[136] and a teenage girl, Ayala-Haya (Ella) Abukasis, who was struck and killed while shielding her younger brother.[136] In addition, more than 1,700 have been injured.[27][137] Injuries have also occurred mainly among civilians, several of whom were injured very seriously.[19][137]

Misfired rockets have also killed and injured Palestinians within the Gaza Strip. However, due to harsh restrictions in information politics and a total lack of free press in the Gaza strip, precisely reporting the number of Palestinian victims is impossible. As far as it became known, the missiles, rockets and mortars have killed six Palestinians and injured dozens more. On June 8, 2005, rockets fired at the Israeli settlement of Ganei Tal killed two Palestinian workers and one Chinese worker in a packing plant. On August 2, 2005, a rocket apparently launched by Islamic Jihad killed a 6-year-old boy and his father in Beit Hanoun.[35] On December 26, 2008 a mortar aimed at Israel killed two Palestinian girls in the Gaza Strip, aged 5 and 12.[138]

Precisely counting the number of rockets fired is impossible, and differing estimates have been given. The injury figures and attack counts below are attributed to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs,[139] whilst the fatality figures have been independently compiled by Mondoweiss. Prior to September 4, 2005, the majority of attacks were against Israeli targets within the Gaza Strip.[139]

[Fred Sanders]

94. Still zero in the latest slaughter.....is all I said.

[Billy Budd]

101. I was referring to current Gaza slaughter

You went back years. I am not aware of Israeli children in the current violence having been killed however since those figures change by the hour literally I did not want to say zero Israeli children had died in the current situation.

[Fred Sanders]

111. Kind of obvious, right? Straw men are a dime a dozen these dark days.

[superpatriotman]

117. The above poster is heavily obfuscating

The cited civilian casualties are from 2004-2014. More kids have died in hot cars in my state since in the same period. Pretty dangerous.

[stevenleser]

124. Question asked was answered with verifiable facts. Zero opinion, spin or obfuscation nt

[superpatriotman]

128. Re read. Agreed.

The Wiki piece is written to lead one to believe the casualty rate for 2014 is 28, which it is not.

Sorry.

[sabrina 1]

144. The question asked was clearly about the current slaughter of Palestinian children in Gaza. And

thankfully no Israeli children have been killed. I would think that would be something to be thankful for, not something to try to use for political purposes.

I hope it remains that way, as children are the most vulnerable victims of these horrors and no child, Israeli or Palestinian deserves to die because of the criminal actions of adults.

[Caretha]

225. No spin?

Oh please....obvious is obvious. Surely you are smart enough to see that flew like a lead balloon.

[sulphurdunn]

168. 28 people killed

and 1700 injured in 10 years. Is that correct? During that time did Israel ever lift the siege of Gaza? How many Palestinians have been killed and wounded by the IDF in the last 10 years? How many times has Hamas invaded Israel, destroyed its cities and slaughtered its people wholesale?

[sulphurdunn]

162. How many Israeli children

have been killed by Hamas lately? You are attempting to establish a false equivalency. No sale.

[jwirr]

22. And the Palestinians are the victims. I do not understand - are Hamas and Palestinian the same? No,

not anymore the same than Israel and Zionists. There needs to be a way to allow the Palestinians a place to live and survive.

[Archae]

24. Well, let's see now...

ABC news showed video of Palestinian civilians laughing, cheering and celebrating the launch of Hamas rockets.

Hamas was (supposedly) elected to be the leaders of the Palestinians.

No one has yet been turned in for the murders of those 3 Israeli boys, while several are under arrest for the murder of that Palestinian boy.

[FourScore]

38. Why does the argument "Israel has a right to defend itself" work for Isreal,

but not for the Palestinians? And how many people have the Hamas rockets killed since the fighting happened?

This "equivalency" bullshit that is propagated in the Israeli propaganda campaign is disgusting.

How many Palestinians have you seen interviewed on American TV compared to Israeli spokespersons?

The Israelis keep blurring the lines of Hamas so that Hamas and Palestinians become one, and they are not!

[Fred Sanders]

47. The argument does not work, it is just repeated ad nauseam. Old propaganda trick that the

the propagandized media regurgitates on command without question.

[Galraedia]

307. Because Israel is using the old Bush/Cheney Reich-Wing playbook....

where everyone who opposes them is a terrorist or anti-semitic. Which is ironic considering Israel has been terrorizing and stealing land from the Palestinians for more than half a century.

[1monster]

81. Are you telling me that there were not people who cheered the US going into Afghanistan and

Iraq? That there were not people RIGHT HERE ON DU cheering the death at US hands of bin Laden?

The Israelis are the enemy of the Palestinians. There can be no doubt about that. Just as bin Laden was the enemy of the US.

I didn't cheer for any of the above and find little to cheer about in any of the situations.

But to use that cheering to justify what is being done in Gaza just sickens me.

PS: The Israeli government acknowledged that Hamas had nothing to do with the kidnapping and murder of those three teens... so why should the Gazan be collectively punished for something they and Hamas were not guilty of?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

177. yep, same reason conservapuke Christian Extremists here cheered the ginned up war

on the wrong nation in retaliation for the actions of a group of Islamic Extremists from a different country.

[jberryhill]

90. And....

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/29/israelis-chant-there-are-no-children-left-in-gaza_n_5630601.html

Translated by HuffPost, the rabble sings: "There's no school in Gaza, there are no more kids left". The video concludes with the crowd chanting "Gaza is a cemetery".

[Enthusiast]

120. ABC also

showed faked-up video of Palestinian civilians laughing, cheering and celebrating after 911.

ABC is certainly untrustworthy. ABC has lost their credibility. I am surprised you do not know this. They are nearly indistinguishable from Fox News. My local ABC affiliate is the same as the local Fox.

[Fred Sanders]

121. Thank you. So many blinded by the blatant propaganda, the American media is a crime scene.

[uponit7771]

126. +1

[Common Sense Party]

286. What was "faked up" about it?

And it wasn't just ABC showing it. It was also CNN and MSNBC:

[Enthusiast]

290. The celebration was not for 911.

Fox faked it, in their ignorance the others picked it up.

This was settled ages ago on DU. We have been though this before.

[Common Sense Party]

292. Wrong.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp

[Enthusiast]

293. Sorry.

I didn't know. I'm glad that we have the Snopes resource.

[intaglio]

26. Hamas is about 1,100 men

That is an Israeli estimate. They are as much "at war with all Jews" as the Provisional IRA was at war against all Brits.

But go ahead posting Israeli propaganda for Israel is not all Jews it is not even a majority of Jews in the world and it is not even exclusively Jewish within its own borders

[1monster]

75. Just like the Native Americans were at war with the US, especially circa 1880s and beyond...

The US had pushed the Native Americans into no man's land where there was next to nothing and still pushed until victory was total and the Native Americans were totally dispossessed. The parallels are there -- The N.A. were defending their lands, their peoples, and their ways of life; they were not the aggressors.

[lark]

86. BS

Israel is at war with all arabs, especially the women and children - see the results of their war of choice. Funny that Hamas wasn't responsible for the 3 Israeli kids deaths, but that fact never stopped Israel from killing 13,000 folks in GAza. They are never one to let truth get in the way of their wars. Meet the new oppressor, same as the old one.

[LanternWaste]

102. You appear to be a great practitioner of the Ethics of Convenience.

"Bullshit."

But you believe a mere home-owner's association is a Nazi dictatorship...

You appear to be a great practitioner of the Ethics of Convenience.

[Capt. Obvious]

105. I just made that comment in the HOA thread

[treestar]

136. So you are blaming other Palestinians for the actions of Hamas?

Hamas does not have any chance of eliminating Israel no matter how many charters they put out.

Israel does however have the capability to take more land. Their actions show their intent, even if they are too smart to put it in a charter.

[BlindTiresias]

156. ...

"The Hamas leadership must be taken out," says coalition chairman Yariv Levin, considered one of the more influential MKs in the Likud party. "We can't leave the Gaza Strip as it is today. We need to create a wide swath of land beyond the border, that will be a no-man's-land that the Palestinians will not be allowed to enter. The area needs to be flattened, in the sense that there will be no houses that tunnels can be dug under."

[sulphurdunn]

186. He's talking about half of Gaza.

This plan would effectively put 1.8 million people in an area of 70 sq. blockaded miles with their backs to the sea.

[nomorenomore08]

272. Even if true, how does that justify killing civilians by the hundreds?

And I really dislike the Nazi comparisons myself, for the record.

[HERVEPA]

4. I'm impressed. Man enought to defend behing a computer screen. Ooh baby I'm impressed.

[Fred Sanders]

7. Truth is gonna get you hurt, propaganda makes it go away, not thinking of the children brings sleep.

[Caretha]

244. "We" are not amused

by you

[HERVEPA]

294. You have multiple personalities?

[Fred Sanders]

5. Israeli military strength in part:

4,000 tanks
10,000 armoured fighting vehicles
706 propelled artillery
350 towed artillery
88 multiple launch missile systems

680 aircraft

Need I go on? Now that is an army that can conduct both war AND a pogrom..made for both.

Hamas: 0 of everything above.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=israel

[Bonobo]

6. That is the stupidest OP I saw all day.

And I saw lots of OPs today.

[Fred Sanders]

8. Stupid enough for you to point it out, guess others may have an opinion also. Take it to the jury,

Complain about the stupidity, double dare.

[FourScore]

41. It doesn't surprise me you would post that. n/t

[arikara]

152. Whoa.

There's stupid here but it isn't the OP.

[BillZBubb]

248. To some people, evidently, facts are stupid.

The OP contains facts.

[Liberal_Dog]

9. Jury Result

On Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:20 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

This is not a "war", it is a pogrom in a ghetto, the Gaza ghetto is like the Warsaw ghetto, and
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025316146

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Use of "Final Solution". Fine to use when 6 million Jew, 11 million total people wiped out. In this case, abhorrent. (This is not a judgement on Israel's behavior)

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:27 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: So sick of this. This person has been non stop with the border line antisemitism. You know what makes DU suck? This kind of over the top hyperbole. Hide.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I agree with the post. Obviously, I am not going to hide it.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Since when do we alert on the truth?
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I was Juror #2.

[Fred Sanders]

11. Every post that does not lick the boots of Israeli propaganda is referred to the jury, it is a given

Thank you.

The words "final solution" have not been given exclusive rights to anyone, even CNN used the term today, they are just words, trying to monopolize words is propaganda.

.................

Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Since when do we alert on the truth?

Thank you Juror # 5, you get it.

[mikeysnot]

31. I've been on here since they instituted that

jury system and I have tripled my duties in the last two weeks.

Someone has an itchy trigger finger.

Making any accurate observation of the current plight of the Palestinians in Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto in Poland during WWII, is a big no-no to the "pro-slaughter of Palestinians in what's left of Palestine" crowd...

And the Israelis continue to push Palestine into the sea, all the while claiming victim hood.

[stevenleser]

82. Israel-->Nazi hyperbolic comparisons deserve hides. nt

[sulphurdunn]

206. Why?

If they're hyperbolic and false they should be easy to refute.

[stevenleser]

289. Cavers make the same argument regarding why they should be allowed to participate here.

The answer is because the admins and DU community have decided that racist, disruptive, regressive garbage does not belong here.

The Israel-->Nazi comparisons are disruptive flame bait aimed at slapping holocaust survivors and their families in the face.

[sulphurdunn]

291. Then you are suggesting

than certain discourse should be censored? I would agree about some things, such as arguments furthering pedophilia or genocide, but not for comparisons to historical events that happened eighty years ago and have happened since. How many generations would you suggest pass before contemporary comparisons to genocidal fascism become acceptable, or is it just the use of the word Nazi that you object to when making such a comparison?

[Billy Budd]

103. The Jury System is being used

, in my opinion, to suppress criticism of Israel. I believe it is done methodically and constantly at times like this when Israel is exposed....

[uponit7771]

127. +1

[BillZBubb]

250. Agreed

[Galraedia]

308. The Tactic of Calling People Anti-Semitic

The tactic of calling people "anti-semitic" who oppose Israel's actions is getting quite tired.

Is it your contention that we in the left should look the other way as Palestinians are oppressed, tortured and murdered, with the help of US tax dollars and US diplomatic cover? Are Palestinians not people? Don't they deserve equal rights? How is it acceptable that Palestinians cannot return to their native land, but have been living in refugee camps for nearly 60 years? Why do their lives not count?

Are we supposed to look the other way while Israel brutalizes the Lebanese, and leaves millions of cluster bombs on their land, left to kill and maim Lebanese children?

Let's just consider the facts on the ground, which lead people to oppose Israel, instead of trying to deconstruct the supposed reason for people objecting to Israel, and ascribing racist motivation for their opposition.

1. The State of Israel was built on land that had been populated by Palestinians as well as a small minority of Jews. This land was given to Zionists by Britain and the UN. No on asked the Palestinians what they thought of sharing their land, or what they would think of being ethnic cleansed and murdered in the process of building the new ethnic state. Of course there would be resistance by the indigenous people, and the response to the resistance would involve the usual methods of oppression, with the greater the response to the resistance, the more accumulated grievances, and the more persistant the resistance would become.

Read more: http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/old/War/Amy.htm

[vssmith]

13. The abused become the abusers

“Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

[Bettie]

14. Yes...it is sadly true

And I'd also point out that disagreeing with the government of Israel doesn't make one an anti-Semite.

Israel's government is a right wing nightmare, with those currently in charge of it intent on exterminating the people they have designated as subhuman.

I don't know that the same is the majority opinion of the citizenry.

[Fred Sanders]

16. The right wing reactionary government of Israel is not the Isrseli people, I get and accept that.

It is the current Israeli government I detest, not the people in general, just as I would detest the German government of the 1930's who enslaved the German people with propaganda and domestic terrorism, now that job is done by the media.

[Bettie]

21. I'm right with you there

I'm disgusted that our government (assuming you're in the US) is choosing to side with those who would commit genocide.

[hifiguy]

25. This is an incredibly important point

and it cannot be made often enough. Thanks for making this crystal clear.

[Comrade Grumpy]

51. I'm sorry, but it appears the Israeli people are fully behind their murderous government.

Just like the Boers in South Africa. They benefit from the racist apartheid state and support it.

[mazzarro]

260. Thank you for pointing that out

It appears that the Israeli people are always conveniently made out to be innocent and separate from the actions of their government and army at all times but such is never the case for the Palestinians who are always blamed for Hamas; and who are always required to throw out Hamas as a precondition for anything decent to be done for them.

[BobbyBoring]

266. Don't they have elections there?

N/t

[arikara]

154. And I'm likewise sickened by our Canadian government

for taking the side of butchers. I'm well aware that many of the Israeli people do not hold with what is being done by their government.

[laundry_queen]

295. Same here

ugh, if I have to hear another disgustingly one-sided statement by John Baird I'm going to hurl.

Just like with the Iraq war, I think most people are able to separate the government with the people...and even with the people who support war and those who don't. During the run up to Iraq, I was able to be against the US government, be with the Americans that didn't want to go to war, and be angry with those who thought voting for Bush was a great idea. Some of us are able to hold nuanced positions.

[arikara]

296. Nuanced positions. Exactly that.

Although when 911 first happened I was quite amazed at how many otherwise intelligent people believed the official story hook line and sinker and figured that first Afghanistan then Iraq needed to be bombed, and also thought Chimpy and company were saviors.

I haven't been watching the news lately at all, I can't stand listening to the so called "Harper government" pronouncements they make me sick too.

[AzDar]

15. K & R

[RobertEarl]

18. It is about the government

We could have had a McCain or Romney here, and been making more war.

We could still have bush types like Israel does. But we don't, so we have 'relative' peace.

People attacking peace mongers as haters because the peacers don't cotton to some old testament religious types, are just talking crazy.

Carry on, Fred. You are on the correct path. Glad to stand with you.

[pocoloco]

19. Eric Hoffer described this phenomenon in one of his books.

Sorry, can't remember which one. He claimed an abused nation would act the same as an abused child and if they ever became in control they would abuse those they had power over.

[BillZBubb]

252. The True Believer?

I think that's the one. It's been a few years since I read it.

In it, there is a lot that would also explain so many self styled liberals who support Israel's brutal actions.

[PatrynXX]

20. I think Bibi (sic)

is secretly in cahoots with Hamas. did they buy him off??

[alfredo]

29. Israel did support Hamas against Fatah.

[hifiguy]

23. There are a number of Israeli politicians

Netanyahoo (sic) first among them, who learned all the wrong lessons from Nazi Germany. I am not equating the two, so settle yer jimmies, but their methodologies grow ever closer.

[alfredo]

28. Why doesn't Israel set up refugee camps in the exclusion zone if they are

concerned about civilian deaths?

[Dustlawyer]

30. 80% civilian deaths is not collateral damage!

I don't care about this side or that. What I do see is what Israel is doing right now, with this over-the-top response is wrong! Many Jewish leaders and Rabbis feel the same way! The treatment of the Palestinians is causing them to be equally bad in actions, but not in volume or effectiveness. Israel is compounding their problems in the future unless they kill all Palestinians. It seems to be their goal here. They know the Palestinians will try to respond to this atrocity which Israel will use as justification to eventually wipe them out!

[Mosby]

35. 80% according to who exactly?

[Comrade Grumpy]

52. Do you wish to dispute that figure? Of course you do.

[Dustlawyer]

135. ABC News, The Telegraph, just Google it!

[Mosby]

167. the numbers come from hamas

http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/

[Dustlawyer]

195. 20% children by this articles admission. It assumes every male of a certain age is a Hamas soldier,

Not true. See the interviews with the doctors at Shifa hospital. None of this is ok. 20% children! At what percent of child deaths would YOU say is too much? Would your percentage change if they were Israeli kids?

[sulphurdunn]

202. Just do the math.

Hamas has around 1,000 combatants. There are 1.8 million densely packed people in Gaza. The death toll has now surpassed 1,400. Hamas continues to offer stiff resistance on the ground to the IDF and fire rockets into Israel. Either Israel has pretty much wiped out Hamas and is not receiving stiff resistance, or the overwhelming majority of these casualties are non-combatants.

[EX500rider]

256. 1,000 combatants? Add a zero or two..

In 2003, Hamas leaders estimated the number of troops in the Qassam Brigade’s ranks at around 20,000. However, some observers believe it is closer to 40,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades#Armed_strength

[sulphurdunn]

258. I could be wrong about the number

of fighters. I'm not wrong about the percentage of military to civilian casualties.

[nomorenomore08]

273. So if it were, say, half that (40%) would it really make things so much better?

[Mosby]

32. You claim you're just talking about Israel

But then you use a term like "final solution" and compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto.

You're not fooling anyone.

[YoungDemCA]

67. +1

Sick of this crap .

[nomorenomore08]

274. Wish we had the unrec feature on DU3.

Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza, and this isn't the first time. But fuck the Nazi comparisons - all it does is provide ammo to those who cheer on the mass killing of Arabs.

[Sunlei]

33. perhaps the NYT can re-do this Warsaw ghetto satire for today.

[COLGATE4]

53. Excellent! nt

[FourScore]

56. Wow. Fascinating. Even back then there was the false equivalency. n/t

[frylock]

149. that is horrific

[malaise]

263. This should be an OP on its on n/t

[WillyT]

34. Hey Fred... Did You Catch THIS:

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025316020

[Fred Sanders]

39. I dunno. Israel has its share of Palins, Cruz's and Bachmanns also, it draws them toomuch attention.

Mock them I will, but give them the attention they crave like vodka to an alcoholic, no.

[JustAnotherGen]

36. Quick question

Is there evidence that the Israeli Government intends to engage in a mass deportation or series of them - to some sort of death camp after the Hamas folks finish the uprising?

I'm not being snarky - or a smart ass. It's a serious question.

Anyone know if this is the case? After the uprising to avoid in particular Treblinka - a death factory - folks still got deported. At the end of the war there were still about 11K jews that were able to survive in hiding on the Non Jew/Aryan side of Warsaw.

[Fred Sanders]

40. The are just "mowing the grass", flowers and weeds together, when it grows too tall, they want

to keep the lawn though, it is the only thing keeping America compliant.

See WillyT post above.

[JustAnotherGen]

57. I don't see the post by WillyT above

The other thing that - I think I recall - is that the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw ghetto did not have direct outside assistance. They did inflict severe well deserved casualties against the Nazis with some smuggled arms - but in general there was a great deal of smuggling to survive in those 1.3 square miles with a population of more 400K people.

Now the funny thing is - if I recall it correctly - The Nazis, when they showed up weren't even there to send the remaining 70K/80K to Treblinka. Down from the 400K due to being sent to death camps, starvation, illness, etc. etc. They were going to be forced out and into labor camps. At the end though - after weeks and weeks of resistance - some did end up going there. Yet others survived even the Polish uprising against the Nazis that the Russians made no effort to intervene in. That uprising was based upon the belief by the citizens of Warsaw that with the Russians on the horizon - they would intervene on their behalf.

[JustAnotherGen]

58. The 'mowing the grass' thing

reminds me of 'Cut The Tall Trees' - when the Hutus (individual citizens) struck down their Tutsi neighbors, friends, work peers, etc. etc. in the mid 1990s.

[CrawlingChaos]

277. Or perhaps this time it's the endgame. They may flatten it, expel the survivors and take it.

I just came across this chilling piece:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Into-the-fray-Why-Gaza-must-go-368862

Or they may be "mowing the grass" again. Either way, the Palestinians know, it means their destruction. It's a matter of slow death or quick.

It's so surreal to see DUers still defending Israel's actions. Fucking surreal.

[WillyT]

46. Check Here:

DULink: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025290438

[stranger81]

87. It's at least what some in the Knesset are advocating.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15326

[JustAnotherGen]

104. I read his article

But I didn't see a mass extermination plan. I did see where this Rand Paul/Louis Gohmert/Ted Cruz wannabe wants to give advanced warning of impending attacks and move the Palestinians to Sinai - but I don't see the policy of extermination by any means necessary.

Funny - how right wing wingnuts around the world all walk the same walk and talk the same talk.

I remember in the late 80's the 'theory' amongstsome of my peers in the black community that the street lights in our communities were a 'different color' in order to readily target us. Crazy talk from some Farrakhan fans at my high school.

But it's the same kind of crazy talk ya know?

[sulphurdunn]

210. I have a feeling

that once this round is over, the people of Gaza will be living in an area about half the size it is now.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. UN human rights official, 2009: Gaza evokes memories of Warsaw Ghetto

There is evidence that Israel committed war crimes during its 22-day campaign in the Gaza Strip and there should be an independent inquiry, UN investigator Richard Falk said Thursday.

The mental anguish of the civilians who suffered the assault is so great that the entire population of Gaza could be seen as casualties, said Falk, UN special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
...
Falk said Israel had made no effort to allow civilians to escape the fighting.

"To lock people into a war zone is something that evokes the worst kind of international memories of the Warsaw Ghetto, and sieges that occur unintentionally during a period of wartime," Falk, who is Jewish, said, referring to the starvation and murder of Warsaw's Jews by Nazi Germany in World War II.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/un-human-rights-official-gaza-evokes-memories-of-warsaw-ghetto-1.268743

[cantbeserious]

43. Agree Completely - The Oppressed Have Become The Oppressors

eom

[magical thyme]

44. agreed. just last night I was questioning the use of the word "war"

The civilians are not "collateral damage." They are targets.

The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence. The doctrine is named after a southern suburb in Beirut with large apartment buildings which were flattened by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the 2006 Lebanon War. Israel has been accused of implementing the strategy during the Gaza War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

[truebluegreen]

45. I agree.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5297675

[enid602]

48. Bibi

I think Bibi has overplayed his cards. He chose the present time to go for broke, as he knows the US is engaged in other crises. The Shiites and Sunni are engaged in their own serious rift, and Bibi has the 'iron dome,' which has been spectacularly effective in repelling Gazan missiles. Why not go for the prize?

On the other hand, Israel is increasingly isolated. Sure, no American politicians will speak out for fear of losing donations, but the US is not in a financial or mental state which will allow it to commit any serious resources to an Israeli-Arab conflict, should it escalate. Teheran and Riyadh seem quiet now on the topic of Gaza; hard to tell, really, given media coverage. Still, could the 'iron dome' (which requires a $65K investment for each missile it repels) really protect Israel from a serious, concentrated Arab assault? Has Bibi chosen the right time in history for this Israeli assault, or are the Arabs merely biding their time? Bibi's given the Arabs motive . . .

[Fred Sanders]

50. No coincidence that the slaughter began just after the chaos of the Malaysian jet shot down.....

The pogrom was on the program, waiting for the right time to commence the attack on people and on the truth. You have to attack in both fronts when you are the clear aggressor.

[Cary]

71. Where is the outrage from the Arab world?

Why is no one talking about how Egypt is blowing up the terror tunnels and isolating Hamas? Do you think ignoring how Hamas plays into the rest of the Arab world negates the reality of the 1,000 plus years of Sunni vs. Shiite?

Hamas is a proxy. Palestinians are pawns. We Jews, as usual, are made a scapegoat.

There is no decent government in the Middle East, aside from Israel and there are 1 million Arab Israeli citizens living in relative prosperity and peace. Where is the corresponding Jewish population in any of the 22 Arab piece of shit governments? While you're at it show me which one of those governments is fair to Druze and Kurds and other minority Arab communities.

[Fred Sanders]

72. Same amount of outrage from the Western world GOVERNMENTS, correction added. The Arab people

are plenty outraged, but the Saudi dictators, the Arab dictators that also enslave their people, these dictators and religious freaks extraordinaire being proxy for the Arab people, you will have to do far better than that, my friend.

[Cary]

78. I don't think you understand.

You ought to study some history.

[Maedhros]

83. Israel's government is anything but "decent." [n/t]

[Cary]

88. Israel's government is a true democracy

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all others.

You just don't like it that Israel exists and that she will do what she feels she needs to do in order to survive. You think Israel is not a decent government unless it acts the way you want her to act, which is that you want Israel to cease being Israel.

To you that's "decency."

[Maedhros]

114. By "government" I'm referring specifically to the right-wing Netanyahu regime,

not generally to the structure of Israel's government.

I do not object to the existence of Israel at all. I do believe that Palestine presents no existential threat to Israel, and that as an occupying nation Israel has certain obligations to the Palestinians under international law. Israel is not meeting those obligations and is instead engaging in collective punishment of Palestinian citizens for the actions of a small minority (Hamas).

I think Netanyahu's government is not decent because it herds Palestinians into ever-shrinking ghettos and then pummels the general population with military force.

It's clear that you are an Israeli propagandist, so I will ignore you now.

[alarimer]

161. It's not a democracy when some citizens are treated better than others.

There is rampant, legal discrimination in Israel against Arab-Israelis, in particular. It is systemic.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.550152

Based on our organization‘s ongoing monitoring of government policy toward Arab citizens, we see that 10 years after the report, not only has there been no redistribution, but the ongoing allocation of resources in almost all spheres is still very unequal. The result is acute inequality in all areas of life. We are not ignoring the areas in which the government has taken certain steps to reduce discrimination, such as the establishment of the Authority for the Economic Development of the Arab Sector in the Prime Minister’s Office, and the implementation of programs to increase employment of the Arab citizens. If these steps were to be expanded, they could bring about a change in the socioeconomic situation of Arab citizens and reduce inequality

But in parallel, the government has been promoting programs that are liable to reignite tensions across the country. The most prominent is the Prawer plan, or “The Plan for the Regulation of Bedouin Settlement in the Negev,” which will result in the uprooting of tens of thousands of Bedouin Arab citizens from their homes, forcing them to relocate and likely lose most of their land. At the same time, the government is promoting programs and offering incentives for young Jews to build new Jewish communities in the Negev, as it continues to offer generous benefits to a small group of Jewish citizens in the “private farms” program.

The commission made special mention of land, because it is a deep-seated factor in the contentious relations between the Arab citizens and the government. It courageously maintained that “the state must allocate land to the Arab sector in accordance with fair principles, as to other sectors of the population.” Here too it should be noted that in the past decade we have seen significant government investment in promoting master plans in Arab communities, but specifically in the important sphere of land allocation, there has been almost no improvement in the past 10 years.

In order to demonstrate the depth of discrimination we can point out that since the foundation of the state until this day, the two groups - Arabs and Jews - have grown at similar rates (eight to tenfold), but that the state has established 700 (!) new communities for Jews (including new cities) - and not a single one for Arabs, with the exception of permanent towns for Bedouin citizens who were removed from their homes. The result is a very severe housing shortage in the Arab communities and many thousands of house demolition orders in these communities. In addition, tens of thousands of Bedouin Arab citizens in the Negev continue to live in disgraceful conditions in unrecognized communities and they lack the most basic living conditions.

[sulphurdunn]

243. You shouldn't put

words in other people's mouths in an attempt to discredit them.

[malaise]

264. NO it is not democratic

No democratic government bombs people when three citizens are kidnapped and killed.
They use the justice system. Notice that after starting this slaughter, they realized that Hamas did not kill those three youngsters.

You don't have democracy for your ethnic group and slaughter for others and call it a democracy. Carter is right - this is apartheid and I would add on steroids.

[enid602]

96. backfire.

Just hope the plan doesn't backfire. If it, does, it may be a severe blow.

[Capt. Obvious]

97. "there are 1 million Arab Israeli citizens living in relative prosperity and peace"

Wow.

[Fred Sanders]

100. Yeah, living under an apartheid system, or else off to Gaza they go.....prosperity?

[vssmith]

49. I started a similar thread a few days back and it was locked

[link:http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025269938|

[Fred Sanders]

55. "Not news or information pertaining to this conflict"', that was the reason? Precious.

I expect the same lame reason for a lockout on my thread, too much attention being attracted to
the similarities.

When do the deportations begin?

[steve2470]

54. I dunno, it's really bad but Nazi comparisons ? come on nt

[Fred Sanders]

60. It is a ghetto comparison, many more in history, you think the Nazis were a one off?

[steve2470]

61. I object to direct comparisons with the Nazis...

I think we could say it's a huge ghetto, but I think you need to go study the Nazis in depth as I have. When you start making Nazi comparisons, you lose people like me. YES IT'S FUCKING BAD. THE NAZIS WERE 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 TIMES WORSE. We agree to disagree, I'm afraid. Good bye.

[Fred Sanders]

63. Straw man arguments followed by self induced rage and victim hood, also well known in history.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

74. I don't think 'bad vs worse' precludes

pointing out that the same TYPE of activities are occurring in specific instances. Otherwise you simply lose the ability to compare ANY two situations that are not 100% identical in 'depths of badness'.

I think that's an argument made by people who want to offer up excuses for badness that is 'not bad enough'.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

59. A quibble (ok, more than a quibble) on the disparity issue.

The Iraq war resulted in the deaths of up to half a million Iraqis in the years immediately following our destruction of a lot of their infrastructure, but only a few American civilian (contractor) deaths.

That jumps us right down to your point in the second to last paragraph.

America and Israel belong on the same psych ward, and in the same courtroom.

[Fred Sanders]

62. Also zero American children killed in both Iraq and Afghanistan, which is why both America and

Israel are so at peace with it all.

No casualties, no body bags seen, ignorance is bliss.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

64. Yup.

Israel is learning all of the wrong lessons from 'Big Brother' America.

[Roy Serohz]

65. And Nutty Yahoo as.....the Bibi

" src="

[Cary]

66. "Israelis want a 'final solution,' having apparently forgotten their own history."

This is not an objectively reasonable opinion.

[Fred Sanders]

69. Finally someone who wants objectivity!

Math is objective, right?

Palestinians killed, about 1400, hard to keep up, so it is estimated.

Israelis killed.....I forgot, someone fill this in.

Palestinian children killed, 300 or so. Again, hard to keep up with the child slaughter stats.

Israelis children killed, 0, must be correct, because we would all know because the media would be bursting with the news.

I do love math, so objective.

[Cary]

73. So according to your "math"...

... if an equal number were killed on both sides it would be okay.

I'm glad I learned math from a different teacher.

[Fred Sanders]

76. Another straw man argument, it is so very boring.

[Cary]

84. Straw man argument?

I'm glad I learned about logical fallacies from a different teacher too.

[U4ikLefty]

110. That was a straw man fallacy you used.

[JustAnotherGen]

130. I think that's a fair question

I wonder - if Hamas were to say - take out a school full of Israeli children-

If there would be any anger at DU?

I'm getting the feeling that this wouldn't be the case.

I think it would be more along the lines of . . . "So sad - but but but but . . ." Like a tip of that - that's so (diminished) sad. Then cheering for Hamas at the blood shed/revenge/direct hit.

There really are very very few pacifists at DU.

I wasn't aware that I was in such a small minority until the past few weeks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

180. Given the reaction to the cafe and bus

Bombings in the early 2000s it would barely register am afraid.

I want this madness to stop, for the sake of the kids in both Ashkelon and Gaza...but the OP is rank antisemitism disguised as anti Israeli

[Fred Sanders]

184. What nonsense, once again the ad hominem fallacy at play.

[nadinbrzezinski]

189. Nope, it is what it is

A reason why Jews are starting to flee France, because wearing a kipah is dangerous and can get you killed. Why a merchant in Belgium said dogs were ok, but Jews not so much. These comparisons to nazi Germany and South Africa are exactly antisemitism disguised as anti Israeli.

I wonder how long until "Jews to the Gas Chambers" and "Death to the Jews" or "Hitler was right" will happen regularly on American streets. Please proceed Fred. It is what it is. You are helping to get those flames going. And where do you think Jews will go? French Jews are taking one way trips to Ben Gurion out of well founded fear

How long until American Jews do likewise? Own it...

[Fred Sanders]

192. Followed by the slippery slope argument, and I thought some were better than that......

[nadinbrzezinski]

194. Well that slippery slope is a fact

Here you go Fred

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/08/08/exodus-why-europes-jews-are-fleeing-once-again-261854.html

I don't expect you to own it. I really don't.

[SQUEE]

300. Your blase denial of the horror of my families past..

And why we fear powerful groups of men.

People like you are why I am armed, and will remain so. Never again means something very different to this Jew and his family, and many many more like us.

You rely on reason, and explain away other peoples hatred because you can not fathom it. There is no reason attached to hatred just blind mindless animalistic need to hurt, kill rape and destroy. Your level headed and quite safe life hides that truth from you.
I have seen horror in this very world of ours and know that no people are immune, and that includes MINE, The GOVERNMENT of Israel is wrong in the lengths it is going, but you want to blame all the people of Israel, to make a blanket and broad brush indictment on an entire nation... that is bigotry. And it is what I was raised to not abide in any form, and to fight to my dying breath.

[Fred Sanders]

301. Your blasé ability to put words in other people's mouths and then play the victim is surely the true

reason you say you are armed.

Strawmen attacks are boring as I have said often lately.

[SQUEE]

309. duly noted

but I am not nor will not be a victim. Take that as you will, enjoy your night. Nothing I can ever say or show you will convince you anyway.

[Marrah_G]

306. I would be outraged

I am anti-war, anti-murder. I fucking hate what Israel has done. What we did in Iraq. What Isis and Syria are doing. What Russia is doing.

People are so good at killing each other. Will we ever evolve past the blood thirst? Somehow I don't think we will.

[JustAnotherGen]

310. I don't think so either

[Fred Sanders]

146. Same teacher who taught you logic but not logical fallacies, I would wager.

[nomorenomore08]

275. And I might ask why you're so untroubled by the killing of children and other noncombatants?

[sulphurdunn]

208. No it isn't objective.

The Israelis just want the land. They'd be happy if the Palestinians just went away, but since they won't, no Israeli government has had a problem slowly pushing them onto reservations and into ghettos.

[YoungDemCA]

68. Ah yes, comparing Israel to the goddamn Nazis...

I don't see ANYTHING objectionable about that...

[Fred Sanders]

77. The straw man brigade has chosen its favorite straw man....be outraged now, it is all you got.....

[YoungDemCA]

79. You made the comparison to the Warsaw Ghetto

I don't think you realize the full extent of the Nazis' evil. That, or you're being willfully obtuse.

[U4ikLefty]

113. You do understand the difference between ghettos & gas chambers

don't you?

[stevenleser]

119. You understand that the Nazis first starved the people for years and then liquidated them, right?

And no, not all of them were liquidated by shipping them out to concentration camps and gassing them.

[JustAnotherGen]

265. +1

[nomorenomore08]

276. +2

[calimary]

80. I read another thread here - I think it was nadin's (?) about the "Samson Option."

Wonder if that's ... well ... I don't even want to think about it.

VERY disturbing. And it would be a "final solution" for more than just Israel and the Palestinians, I fear.



Found it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025312076

[TheKentuckian]

92. MAD is the ballgame with nuclear weapons for everyone that has them.

It is 100% deterrence that implies complete destruction if a line is crossed.

That goes for everyone which is why the things are an abomination and why anti - proliferation is a big deal, everyone knows that eventually someone will have a line too easily crossed and the world goes to Hell in a hand basket, there is no winning a nuclear war so they are by definition a doomsday device and nothing else.

Every country when push comes to shove will destroy the world rather than be destroyed alone, that is the game and it can only be won if no one plays at all.

[calimary]

267. Yeah. No kidding.

Knowing some of these nutcases, deterrence isn't it. They don't care. If they're religious extremists, they're not GONNA care. It just means they think that will force the Hand of God and make Jesus come back, or hasten the Apocalypse as they think it's gonna be, or ensure their arrival at some sort of Valhalla in the sky with milk and honey and dozens of eagerly-waiting virgins or whatever-the-hell. Now, if you thought THAT was what was behind the ultimate "Door Number 3," why hesitate?

That's what worries me most. The dingdongs with their "closely held 'beliefs'" who are just sure their actions can force the Hand, and the Divine Schedule, of God.

[stevenleser]

85. I don't think anyone who has thoroughly researched ghettos under the Nazis would agree.

What you have done is reached for the most sensational and over the top comparison you can find in order to generate outrage.

I am not happy with Israel and have not been for several years. You will not see posts defending them from me.

Criticism of the Israelis on multiple fronts and issues is pretty easy to make if you take just a few moments to make good ones.

You don't need over the top ISRAEL=NAZIS!!!!11!1! arguments.

[Fred Sanders]

95. Sorry to offend...no comparison was made, two truths are contrasted, the comparison is in your mind.

"To lock people into a war zone is something that evokes the worst kind of international memories of the Warsaw Ghetto, and sieges that occur unintentionally during a period of wartime," Falk, who is Jewish, said, referring to the starvation and murder of Warsaw's Jews by Nazi Germany in World War II.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/un-human-rights-official-gaza-evokes-memories-of-warsaw-ghetto-1.268743

[stevenleser]

108. The comparison is in your OP title, not my mind. nt

[Fred Sanders]

109. "Comparison" and "contrast" are different words, the subtle difference may be lost, the corruption

of language is a lot of the problem.

[stevenleser]

112. If I start an OP with the title saying "DUer Fred Sanders is like George W Bush"

You are going to say I am comparing you to George W. Bush and suggesting you are similar to him. Any attempt to suggest otherwise you are going to regard as an attempt to dodge the real comparison I would have made with the title.

[Fred Sanders]

116. Your comments interested me enough to post this:

http://www.csun.edu/%7Edgw61315/fallacies.html#Introduction

on another thread

[stevenleser]

125. You should spend more time reading the text at the link you provided.

You use several logical fallacies with this OP.

[malokvale77]

158. Your responses in this and a few other threads on this topic...

have caused me to rethink everything else you have posted on DU.

[stevenleser]

285. Good. And I mean that no matter which way you mean your comment.

If you agree with me, I hope you hold my opinions in higher esteem as a result.

If you are the kind of person that thinks the Israel=Nazis comparisons is proper discourse, I hope you put me on ignore and never listen or watch me again. I have no need of the support of people who think that gross hyperbole aimed at slapping the victims of the holocaust in the face is a good way of dialoguing.

[malokvale77]

311. Definitely not higher esteem...

but not because I'm the "kind of person that thinks the Israel=Nazis comparisons is proper discourse".

More because I find you to be a mouth piece for the most unholy.

[Bluenorthwest]

151. To compare means to highlight the similarities between two or more things

To contrast means to highlight the differences between two or more things. When one says 'this is like that' one is making a comparison, not a contrast. Let us compare and contrast a banana and a school bus. Both are yellow (compare) but the bus is much larger, has an engine and the banana is a piece of fruit (contrast).
The poster you are speaking with is fully aware of the meanings of both words.

[CTyankee]

89. stop it with comparison's to WW2. It is just wrong. You can disagree with Israel's foreign

policy in very strong terms, but using WW2 events in comparison does not look good. Have some sensitivity here...

[Fred Sanders]

99. There is another popular thread on the same thing, repost the same thing there..you are wrong.

[CTyankee]

141. It is still not a good argument,no matter how many people post it.

Can you imagine how someone Jewish would feel about Israel being compared to the Nazis act of evil with the Warsaw Ghetto? Even those Jews who strongly disagree with Netanyatu's policies would be repelled. There better ways to state your argument.

[TalkingDog]

259. I don't have to imagine: Last of Warsaw Ghetto Survivors Calls for Rebellion Against Israeli

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/04/09/last-of-warsaw-ghetto-survivors-calls-for-rebellion-against-israeli-occupation/

On Yom Ha-Shoah, one of the few remaining living survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto, Chavka Fulman-Raban, delivered a fierce denunciation of evil and injustice, including the Israeli Occupation.

[CTyankee]

262. what a beautiful statement!

Not to be too nit-picky here, but what I read was not a direct comparison of the state of Israel with the perpetrators of the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto. I did not read her statement as wishing for destruction of the state of Israel, but she clearly stands for justice and peace, not at all the goal of the Nazis which was just destruction and obliteration of an whole population. I think she feels that Israel needs a different policy, led my Jewish beliefs and tradition. I think she wants to end the suffering caused by Israel, but not the wiping out of the Jewish state.

IMO, hers is a fine, eloquent statement, one that many in my largely progressive, Jewish neighborhood could heartily endorse. Ditto my stepdaughter, who is a rabbi, leading a Reform Jewish congregation in Arizona.

Thank you for sharing that statement! It has lifted my spirits today!

[TalkingDog]

268. Glad you enjoyed it, but you didn't ask about a Jewish person making a direct comparison.

You asked how they would feel about it. Given that she was in Warsaw and she opposes Occupation, I don't imagine she'd have much problem with it.

[CTyankee]

269. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I think she has a real problem with the occupation, based on her

religious beliefs. I think she feels it is in direct contradiction of what she considers Jewish teaching and faith. That is what I got from the clip you posted.

[nomorenomore08]

278. That is fantastic. Thank you.

[Boom Sound 416]

98. Hamas is the reason Gaza is a ghetto

[Fred Sanders]

106. I love history, here is an account of the invasion of the Warsaw ghetto:

April to May 1943Edit


Stroop Report original caption: "Forcibly pulled out of dug-outs". Captured Jews are led by German troops to the assembly point for deportation. Picture taken at Nowolipie street, near the intersection with Smocza.

Stroop Report original caption: "A patrol." SS men on Nowolipie street.

Stroop Report original caption: "Destruction of a housing block." Photo from intersection of Zamenhofa and Wołyńska.
On 19 April 1943, on the eve of Passover, the police and SS auxiliary forces entered the Ghetto. They were planning to complete the deportation action within three days, but were ambushed by Jewish insurgents firing and tossing Molotov cocktails and hand grenades from alleyways, sewers, and windows. The Germans suffered casualties and their advance bogged down. Two of their combat vehicles (an armed conversion of a French-made Lorraine 37L light armored vehicle and an armored car) were set on fire by insurgent petrol bombs.[35] Following von Sammern-Frankenegg's failure to contain the revolt, he lost his post as the SS and police commander of Warsaw. He was replaced by SS-Brigadeführer Jürgen Stroop, who rejected von Sammern-Frankenegg's proposal to call in bomber aircraft from Kraków and proceeded to lead a better-organized and reinforced ground attack.

The longest-lasting defense of a position took place around the ŻZW stronghold at Muranowski Square, where the ŻZW chief leader, Dawid Moryc Apfelbaum, was killed in combat. On the afternoon of 19 April, a symbolic event took place when two boys climbed up on the roof of a building on the square and raised two flags, the red-and-white Polish flag and the blue-and-white banner of the ŻZW. These flags remained there, highly visible from the Warsaw streets, for four days. After the war, Stroop recalled:

"The matter of the flags was of great political and moral importance. It reminded hundreds of thousands of the Polish cause, it excited them and unified the population of the General Government, but especially Jews and Poles. Flags and national colours are a means of combat exactly like a rapid-fire weapon, like thousands of such weapons. We all knew that – Heinrich Himmler, Krüger, and Hahn. The Reichsfuehrer [Himmler] bellowed into the phone: 'Stroop, you must at all costs bring down those two flags!'"


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

...........

Israel destroyed a power plant, a radio station and the HQ of the Hamas government....all claimed to be symbolic hits....symbols are important in the propaganda war.

[LittleBlue]

107. Apartheid South Africa is a better comparison than the Nazis

This post isn't directed at you, OP, but at the Nazi references in the thread. I feel comparisons to the Nazis are off the mark, and does a lazy injustice to the reality of this conflict.

It's much closer to apartheid South Africa. The West Bank and Gaza are clearly bantustans. The only difference is that Israel hasn't stripped Arabs of their citizenship, probably because it would cause sanctions from much of the western world. But they would consider it if Arabs became too numerous, hence the oft-repeated saying "Israel has to decide whether it wants to be a democracy or Jewish". That dilemma is not necessarily rhetorical. The Arab citizens are segregated and subject to race-specific laws.

Some of Israel's supporters live in a blind fantasy world where they think this can continue forever. Demographically, it can't. Secular Jews have held Israel together since its inception, now by 2019 most Israeli children in schools are either Arabs or haredi. Unless something is done soon while the secular Jews are still in control (although that's slipping fast), Israel is doomed to an outcome like South Africa: to be changed on the terms of others rather than on their own terms.

Report: More than half of new pupils will be haredi or Arab by 2019

According to the Central Bureau for Statistics, only 40 percent of students in 2019 will be enrolled in secular state schools • Data suggests growth rate for Jewish schools is higher than for Arab schools.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=11219

Israel will be politically paralyzed between extreme factions when this demographic grows up. The haredi in power will be unable to maneuver the international political waters due to being handcuffed by their extreme beliefs. The Arabs will cause a political paralysis. The time for a negotiated solution was 20 years ago, now it may be impossible. The solution will ultimately be imposed on them with things like sanctions.

[Fred Sanders]

118. With respect, both contrasts are applicable, the walled city of Gaza is a better contrast, but your

contrast is also good, in a different way, more like the million Arabs living in Israel are treated.

[westerebus]

132. Not to go off topic, but..

Israel was the primary supplier of arms to the apartheid government of South Africa during the UN arms embargo way back then. Small world.

[mulsh]

115. The last thing Israel wants is a "final solution". This group currently in power want a never

ending process, If they wanted a "final solution" they'd employ the massive amount of arms and technology we continue to supply them and blow the large scale concentration camp that is Gaza into dust. They get to maintain power and popularity by selectively acting aggressive every few years, killing a thousand or so people and blaming Hamas.

Unfortunately the people in power in Israel appear to be fairly popular both there and with our government. Unlike the ones the Palestinians elected, you know Hamas the USA and Western Power have little objection to Likudnics.

[Fred Sanders]

122. Hamas was democratically elected, as was the Israeli government, but only one is legit.

And then they have the gall to trumpet how democratic respecting Israel is...the hypocrisy is
Monumental.....and Egypt...do not get me started.

[randome]

134. They won't blow Gaza to dust because they want the land.

Thieves and murderers don't destroy what they covet.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[MisterP]

123. you know it, I know it, analysts know it, Israel itself knows it: Bibithink is designed only for

US consumption, to keep the impunity and dollars flowing, and keep the CIA buying Israeli experts and intel (like Ríos Montt did, in fact, though there the highland Maya were being reconcentrated without settlement--but it was based on how to treat Arab Israelis)

[EX500rider]

133. Some "Ghetto"..

Gaza:
141 sq. miles
pop. 1.8 million (annual population growth rate of 2.91%)
GDP: $1.35 billion

Warsaw Ghetto:
1.3 sq. miles
Average food rations in 1941 were limited to 184 calories
pop. 400,000
-250,000 sent to Treblinka death camp, rest died of starvation or in the resistance.

[EX500rider]

139. Not a fan of Hamas, sorry...lots of places i don't want to live..

That don't make them "ghettos".

[Fred Sanders]

138. So, one ghetto is bigger than another, and one was 80 years ago? Point taken, such as it is.

[EX500rider]

140. No, the in the real Ghetto everybody starved, was shot or gassed. No positive pop. growth.

[malokvale77]

164. No...

"A ghetto is a part of a city in which members of a minority group live, especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure.[1] The term was originally used in Venice to describe the part of the city to which Jews were restricted and segregated."

[1] ghetto - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary.

Gaza is a ghetto.

We have them right here in the USA. I live in one.

[EX500rider]

169. Maybe you missed the header of the OP "the Gaza ghetto is like the Warsaw ghetto."

[malokvale77]

174. I didn't miss anything

I was responding to your definition of a ghetto.

[EX500rider]

176. Yes, the definition of the Warsaw Ghetto

[malokvale77]

183. So only Warsaw defines ghetto in your opinion...

even though the word was coined to describe another place.

It leads me to believe that you have no understanding of the world outside your tiny bubble.

[EX500rider]

190. In the context of this OP we are only discussing whether Warsaw=Gaza, try to keep up

[malokvale77]

209. You keep up

Size is not the issue. The effect is what matters.

The destruction of "undesirables" and the usurpation of their property.

It is not that hard to understand. I'm sorry that you seem so hell bent on denying it.

[EX500rider]

236. "The effect is what matters."

Yes and in Warsaw ALL 400,000 inhabitants ended up dead.
Gaza has a large population growth.
One thing is not like the other.

[malokvale77]

249. Israel is not done yet, are they?

Let's keep providing them towards that goal. I'm sure with enough money and weapons that will be accomplished in due time.

With all the propaganda being spewed, one would get the idea that the Palestinians were responsible for the Holocaust, rather than the ones who's land was usurped to form Israel.

Whatever the case may be, I have lost interest in simple minded thinking. Have the last word, I will not be replying.

[onenote]

282. You may live in a ghetto. But your Ghetto doesn't resemble the Warsaw Ghetto

and neither does Gaza.

[COLGATE4]

153. Bigger than Metropolitan Las Vegas. Some "ghetto". nt

[AnalystInParadise]

143. War is not between equal sides

You want to be able to decimate your opponent in war.

Or have you forgotten this little piece of poetry.

"Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not."

Ideally one side wants to be able to kill the other side at will without sustaining any casualties itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Omdurman

[Fred Sanders]

147. You made me laugh, describing slaughter as a form of war....you really did.

[AnalystInParadise]

150. What the hell

do you think war is? If it is a contest of equals, then you are doing it wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

182. It is, but only on the sand table

Unfortunately people confuse the sand table and simulation for real life.

[BlindTiresias]

155. Something for the deniers/apologists

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.608121

"The Hamas leadership must be taken out," says coalition chairman Yariv Levin, considered one of the more influential MKs in the Likud party. "We can't leave the Gaza Strip as it is today. We need to create a wide swath of land beyond the border, that will be a no-man's-land that the Palestinians will not be allowed to enter. The area needs to be flattened, in the sense that there will be no houses that tunnels can be dug under."

Concentrating the population into smaller and smaller cordoned off plots of land? Hmmm...

[Fred Sanders]

157. You mean like this, although it is now the size of Las Vegas, some say, so can not be a ghetto....

Israel has created a multitude of ghettos for the different levels of servitude to them.

[oberliner]

185. Could we see a map from 1957?

That'd be interesting to include.

[Maedhros]

302. Here you go:

What point would you make with this?

[oberliner]

303. In that map, Gaza is part of Egypt and the West Bank is part of Jordan

Where do they figure in the "loss of Palestinian land" narrative? They don't make an appearance in Gaza or the West Bank on any of the four maps, even though Egypt and Jordan were occupying Gaza and the West Bank throughout the 1950's - as indicated in the map you provided.

[Maedhros]

304. Israel maintains effective control of Gaza and the West Bank

and thus remains the occupying power as defined by Article 47 of the Hague Regulations.

Regardless of what happened in 1957, Israel is occupying Palestinian land.

[oberliner]

305. Not disputing that

Just disputing the sequence of maps as being an accurate representation of the history. I think they are manipulative propaganda pieces. I think it is enough to say that the occupation is wrong and that Israel should withdraw to the 1967 lines.

[felix_numinous]

159. Rabid right wing sociopathy is a universal behavior

whether Nazi, Taliban, fundamentalist Christian, Jew, Hindu, Muslim--any ideology can be twisted by them. Sociopaths want power, land, domination, inequality, punishment--because they are broken inside, they see a fragmented world.

Sociopaths are cut off from their higher creative minds and their hearts because they are in a state like chronic fight or flight. When in this state blood is shunted toward the limbs for survival, and into the reptilian most primitive part of the brain.

So to overcome this social disease is to stay calm and unified WITHIN. When we are able to calm ourselves and bring blood and oxygen to our higher brains and to our hearts we unify ourselves to our full potentials. Any martial artist knows the importance of staying calm.

Sociopathy is a state if fear that is contagious--which is important---to recognize when we ourselves are triggered into this state--and RESIST fighting amongst ourselves, resist becoming part of the disease.

Because if we are to create a future where sociopaths can be driven from all the seats of power we need every able body to be in their full potential, with a fully activated calm higher brain function to do so. Because once we get out of our primitive lower brains and open our hearts, we can get a lot done. Working together doesn't mean we have to like or approve of each other--but we can find common ground.

Gaza has potential to create a new generation of terrorists--and Netanyahu knows this--he is only capable of creating more Hell. His right wing party, like all right wing hyper violent parties cannot be allowed to destroy any more life. This is a human disease.

Peace ~~~FN

[emsimon33]

160. Great opening statement

"Israelis want a 'final solution,' having apparently forgotten their own history. "

[cornball 24]

163. Please forgive my naivete as a newcomer to DU

but I fail to understand why a person is subjected to so much scrutiny (Fred Sanders) as in trial by jury, when that person is compelled to express his disgust with the situation in Gaza, the murder of innocent civilians by the region's super power, Israel. It seems to me that posters veer off this topic that should be of vital importance to the civilized world. Instead, I read so much back and forth hyperbole when the real issue seems to be negated. I am sure I will be chastised for my post. Frankly, my dear, I dont give a damn! My concern is that my country is aiding and abetting the killing of innocent civilians by supplying arms to Israel. This sickens me!

[steve2470]

166. we moderate posts via juries here, instead of moderators doing it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus

Read that please.

[malokvale77]

187. I think you got that right

Fred dares to challenge the status quo, so must be silenced.

Welcome to DU. We need more voices of reason here.

[William769]

171. There is no comparison whatsoever and to say there is, is very disingenuous.

Either you are not well versed in the history of the Warsaw ghetto or you just ... What the hell, why even try, you are going to carry on with that meme no matter what.

[steve2470]

172. The Nazis were in a league all of their own, only Rwanda and Pol Pot come close

I can't believe anyone even entertains the comparison. Yes, the situation with Gaza is BAD but Nazis ? Jesus Christ.

[William769]

173. Agreed 100%

[steve2470]

179. hey, did you see my lgbt thread in GD ?

[William769]

219. No sorry I sisn't see it.

Fast way is to link me.

[steve2470]

222. ok here ya go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025315843

[William769]

223. Thanks.