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Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:06 AM Jul 2014

This is not a "war", it is a pogrom in a ghetto, the Gaza ghetto is like the Warsaw ghetto.

Last edited Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:34 PM - Edit history (2)

.....................

EDIT:

We are not alone:


"A Pew Research Center poll released Monday showed that a plurality of Democrats across the country, 35 percent, and liberals, 44 percent, said that Israel had “gone too far” in its response to its conflict with Hamas. Meanwhile 47 percent of Democrats told Gallup that Israel’s actions during the current conflict were “unjustified,” compared to just 31 percent who thought the opposite."

To be ignored and sent to jury.......ignored in the media, ignored by our own progressive heroes.....

-------------------------------


Israelis want a "final solution", having apparently forgotten their own history.

War is between relatively equal sides, no war ends up with 1300 civilians killed on one side and 2 on the other, anyone care to weigh in on the math?

Meanwhile cowardly American politicians hide behind chest beating symbolic votes and ship more ammo to Israel as a gift, hoping to keep their fundraising intact and not be attacked by the compliant media...as hundreds of children are torn part limb by limb in their sleep as they
lay in "protected" UN shelters.

As evil as the slaughter is the evil of the American media advancing evil lies and war crimes by the dozens. The human shield argument is so lame as to be a war crime itself, but criminals always have their own sick mind justifications, do they not?

Did you get the part where Israel gets to or has to, I have not figured that out yet, to buy more ammo and weapons.....directly from the American manufacturers? Because the hereto before secret stash of a billion dollars already in Israel, provided by you as a taxpayer, is not enough. Not enough to continue the killing at the pace Bibi wants. How sick is that!

America and Israel belong on the same psych ward, and in the same courtroom.

And yes, I am directly attacking Israel. Israel is wrong and the dead children are dead right, so take me to the jury for my whipping, I am man enough to defend myself and the dead at the same time.

This is not a "war", it is a pogrom in a ghetto, the Gaza ghetto is like the Warsaw ghetto. (Original Post) Fred Sanders Jul 2014 OP
That way of seeing it hadn't occurred to me get the red out Jul 2014 #1
Bullshit. Archae Jul 2014 #2
How many Israeli children dead? Math is not propaganda, never is, oh heartless one!? Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #3
Anyone who claims either side is free of the blood of children is an exploiter of dead children. Bluenorthwest Jul 2014 #10
Israel is free of the blood of children, even as it flows like wine in the Gaza Ghetto. Any evidence Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #12
Anyone who claims either side is free of the blood of children is an exploiter of dead children. Bluenorthwest Jul 2014 #17
a simple question was posed to you frylock Jul 2014 #27
so, Hamas' inability to achieve their goal of Israeli civilian casualties ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2014 #37
never said that.. frylock Jul 2014 #145
The Palestinians aren't nearly as proficient sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #165
so, again, because they suck at killing Israelis ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2014 #170
If the Israelis lift the blockade sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #178
if you believe that the attacks would stop ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2014 #197
Why wouldn't they? sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #204
yes... Hamas hates them that much n/t ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2014 #205
Considering what's been going on sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #207
The West Bank is mostly peaceful nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #213
the rockets stopped for nearly 2 years frylock Jul 2014 #253
so what have gay folk done to the likes of Hamas dsc Jul 2014 #221
Hell, I have neighbors sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #234
you say that if Israel just did what Hamas wants then Hamas wouldn't want to kill them dsc Jul 2014 #239
Hamas can want to kill all the Jews sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #246
Some questions are too hard to answer. Thankfully no Israeli children have died, yet. However sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #142
yes, i agree that is something we can all be thankful for frylock Jul 2014 #254
how many Israel children Billy Budd Jul 2014 #91
A quick google will tell you... stevenleser Jul 2014 #93
Still zero in the latest slaughter.....is all I said. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #94
I was referring to current Gaza slaughter Billy Budd Jul 2014 #101
Kind of obvious, right? Straw men are a dime a dozen these dark days. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #111
The above poster is heavily obfuscating superpatriotman Jul 2014 #117
Question asked was answered with verifiable facts. Zero opinion, spin or obfuscation nt stevenleser Jul 2014 #124
Re read. Agreed. superpatriotman Jul 2014 #128
The question asked was clearly about the current slaughter of Palestinian children in Gaza. And sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #144
No spin? Caretha Jul 2014 #225
28 people killed sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #168
How many Israeli children sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #162
And the Palestinians are the victims. I do not understand - are Hamas and Palestinian the same? No, jwirr Jul 2014 #22
Well, let's see now... Archae Jul 2014 #24
Why does the argument "Israel has a right to defend itself" work for Isreal, FourScore Jul 2014 #38
The argument does not work, it is just repeated ad nauseam. Old propaganda trick that the Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #47
Because Israel is using the old Bush/Cheney Reich-Wing playbook.... Galraedia Aug 2014 #307
Are you telling me that there were not people who cheered the US going into Afghanistan and 1monster Jul 2014 #81
yep, same reason conservapuke Christian Extremists here cheered the ginned up war BlancheSplanchnik Jul 2014 #177
And.... jberryhill Jul 2014 #90
ABC also Enthusiast Jul 2014 #120
Thank you. So many blinded by the blatant propaganda, the American media is a crime scene. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #121
+1 uponit7771 Jul 2014 #126
What was "faked up" about it? Common Sense Party Aug 2014 #286
The celebration was not for 911. Enthusiast Aug 2014 #290
Wrong. Common Sense Party Aug 2014 #292
Sorry. Enthusiast Aug 2014 #293
Hamas is about 1,100 men intaglio Jul 2014 #26
Just like the Native Americans were at war with the US, especially circa 1880s and beyond... 1monster Jul 2014 #75
BS lark Jul 2014 #86
You appear to be a great practitioner of the Ethics of Convenience. LanternWaste Jul 2014 #102
I just made that comment in the HOA thread Capt. Obvious Jul 2014 #105
So you are blaming other Palestinians for the actions of Hamas? treestar Jul 2014 #136
... BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #156
He's talking about half of Gaza. sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #186
Even if true, how does that justify killing civilians by the hundreds? nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #272
I'm impressed. Man enought to defend behing a computer screen. Ooh baby I'm impressed. HERVEPA Jul 2014 #4
Truth is gonna get you hurt, propaganda makes it go away, not thinking of the children brings sleep. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #7
"We" are not amused Caretha Jul 2014 #244
You have multiple personalities? HERVEPA Aug 2014 #294
Israeli military strength in part: Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #5
That is the stupidest OP I saw all day. Bonobo Jul 2014 #6
Stupid enough for you to point it out, guess others may have an opinion also. Take it to the jury, Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #8
It doesn't surprise me you would post that. n/t FourScore Jul 2014 #41
Whoa. arikara Jul 2014 #152
To some people, evidently, facts are stupid. BillZBubb Jul 2014 #248
Jury Result Liberal_Dog Jul 2014 #9
Every post that does not lick the boots of Israeli propaganda is referred to the jury, it is a given Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #11
I've been on here since they instituted that mikeysnot Jul 2014 #31
Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #70
Israel-->Nazi hyperbolic comparisons deserve hides. nt stevenleser Jul 2014 #82
Why? sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #206
Cavers make the same argument regarding why they should be allowed to participate here. stevenleser Aug 2014 #289
Then you are suggesting sulphurdunn Aug 2014 #291
The Jury System is being used Billy Budd Jul 2014 #103
+1 uponit7771 Jul 2014 #127
Agreed BillZBubb Jul 2014 #250
The Tactic of Calling People Anti-Semitic Galraedia Aug 2014 #308
The abused become the abusers vssmith Jul 2014 #13
Yes...it is sadly true Bettie Jul 2014 #14
The right wing reactionary government of Israel is not the Isrseli people, I get and accept that. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #16
I'm right with you there Bettie Jul 2014 #21
This is an incredibly important point hifiguy Jul 2014 #25
I'm sorry, but it appears the Israeli people are fully behind their murderous government. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #51
Thank you for pointing that out mazzarro Aug 2014 #260
Don't they have elections there? BobbyBoring Aug 2014 #266
And I'm likewise sickened by our Canadian government arikara Jul 2014 #154
Same here laundry_queen Aug 2014 #295
Nuanced positions. Exactly that. arikara Aug 2014 #296
K & R AzDar Jul 2014 #15
It is about the government RobertEarl Jul 2014 #18
Eric Hoffer described this phenomenon in one of his books. pocoloco Jul 2014 #19
The True Believer? BillZBubb Jul 2014 #252
I think Bibi (sic) PatrynXX Jul 2014 #20
Israel did support Hamas against Fatah. alfredo Jul 2014 #29
There are a number of Israeli politicians hifiguy Jul 2014 #23
Why doesn't Israel set up refugee camps in the exclusion zone if they are alfredo Jul 2014 #28
80% civilian deaths is not collateral damage! Dustlawyer Jul 2014 #30
80% according to who exactly? Mosby Jul 2014 #35
Do you wish to dispute that figure? Of course you do. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #52
ABC News, The Telegraph, just Google it! Dustlawyer Jul 2014 #135
the numbers come from hamas Mosby Jul 2014 #167
20% children by this articles admission. It assumes every male of a certain age is a Hamas soldier, Dustlawyer Jul 2014 #195
Just do the math. sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #202
1,000 combatants? Add a zero or two.. EX500rider Jul 2014 #256
I could be wrong about the number sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #258
So if it were, say, half that (40%) would it really make things so much better? nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #273
You claim you're just talking about Israel Mosby Jul 2014 #32
+1 YoungDemCA Jul 2014 #67
Wish we had the unrec feature on DU3. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #274
This message was self-deleted by its author lostincalifornia Jul 2014 #131
perhaps the NYT can re-do this Warsaw ghetto satire for today. Sunlei Jul 2014 #33
Excellent! nt COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #53
Wow. Fascinating. Even back then there was the false equivalency. n/t FourScore Jul 2014 #56
that is horrific frylock Jul 2014 #149
This should be an OP on its on n/t malaise Aug 2014 #263
Hey Fred... Did You Catch THIS: WillyT Jul 2014 #34
I dunno. Israel has its share of Palins, Cruz's and Bachmanns also, it draws them toomuch attention. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #39
Quick question JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #36
The are just "mowing the grass", flowers and weeds together, when it grows too tall, they want Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #40
I don't see the post by WillyT above JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #57
The 'mowing the grass' thing JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #58
Or perhaps this time it's the endgame. They may flatten it, expel the survivors and take it. CrawlingChaos Aug 2014 #277
Check Here: WillyT Jul 2014 #46
It's at least what some in the Knesset are advocating. stranger81 Jul 2014 #87
I read his article JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #104
I have a feeling sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #210
UN human rights official, 2009: Gaza evokes memories of Warsaw Ghetto muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #42
Agree Completely - The Oppressed Have Become The Oppressors cantbeserious Jul 2014 #43
agreed. just last night I was questioning the use of the word "war" magical thyme Jul 2014 #44
I agree. truebluegreen Jul 2014 #45
Bibi enid602 Jul 2014 #48
No coincidence that the slaughter began just after the chaos of the Malaysian jet shot down..... Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #50
Where is the outrage from the Arab world? Cary Jul 2014 #71
Same amount of outrage from the Western world GOVERNMENTS, correction added. The Arab people Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #72
I don't think you understand. Cary Jul 2014 #78
Israel's government is anything but "decent." [n/t] Maedhros Jul 2014 #83
Israel's government is a true democracy Cary Jul 2014 #88
By "government" I'm referring specifically to the right-wing Netanyahu regime, Maedhros Jul 2014 #114
It's not a democracy when some citizens are treated better than others. alarimer Jul 2014 #161
You shouldn't put sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #243
NO it is not democratic malaise Aug 2014 #264
backfire. enid602 Jul 2014 #96
"there are 1 million Arab Israeli citizens living in relative prosperity and peace" Capt. Obvious Jul 2014 #97
Yeah, living under an apartheid system, or else off to Gaza they go.....prosperity? Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #100
I started a similar thread a few days back and it was locked vssmith Jul 2014 #49
"Not news or information pertaining to this conflict"', that was the reason? Precious. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #55
I dunno, it's really bad but Nazi comparisons ? come on nt steve2470 Jul 2014 #54
It is a ghetto comparison, many more in history, you think the Nazis were a one off? Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #60
I object to direct comparisons with the Nazis... steve2470 Jul 2014 #61
Straw man arguments followed by self induced rage and victim hood, also well known in history. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #63
I don't think 'bad vs worse' precludes Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #74
A quibble (ok, more than a quibble) on the disparity issue. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #59
Also zero American children killed in both Iraq and Afghanistan, which is why both America and Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #62
Yup. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #64
And Nutty Yahoo as.....the Bibi Roy Serohz Jul 2014 #65
"Israelis want a 'final solution,' having apparently forgotten their own history." Cary Jul 2014 #66
Finally someone who wants objectivity! Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #69
So according to your "math"... Cary Jul 2014 #73
Another straw man argument, it is so very boring. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #76
Straw man argument? Cary Jul 2014 #84
That was a straw man fallacy you used. U4ikLefty Jul 2014 #110
I think that's a fair question JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #130
Given the reaction to the cafe and bus nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #180
What nonsense, once again the ad hominem fallacy at play. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #184
Nope, it is what it is nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #189
Followed by the slippery slope argument, and I thought some were better than that...... Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #192
Well that slippery slope is a fact nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #194
Your blase denial of the horror of my families past.. SQUEE Aug 2014 #300
Your blasť ability to put words in other people's mouths and then play the victim is surely the true Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #301
duly noted SQUEE Aug 2014 #309
I would be outraged Marrah_G Aug 2014 #306
I don't think so either JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #310
Same teacher who taught you logic but not logical fallacies, I would wager. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #146
And I might ask why you're so untroubled by the killing of children and other noncombatants? nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #275
No it isn't objective. sulphurdunn Jul 2014 #208
Ah yes, comparing Israel to the goddamn Nazis... YoungDemCA Jul 2014 #68
The straw man brigade has chosen its favorite straw man....be outraged now, it is all you got..... Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #77
You made the comparison to the Warsaw Ghetto YoungDemCA Jul 2014 #79
You do understand the difference between ghettos & gas chambers U4ikLefty Jul 2014 #113
You understand that the Nazis first starved the people for years and then liquidated them, right? stevenleser Jul 2014 #119
+1 JustAnotherGen Aug 2014 #265
+2 nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #276
I read another thread here - I think it was nadin's (?) about the "Samson Option." calimary Jul 2014 #80
MAD is the ballgame with nuclear weapons for everyone that has them. TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #92
Yeah. No kidding. calimary Aug 2014 #267
I don't think anyone who has thoroughly researched ghettos under the Nazis would agree. stevenleser Jul 2014 #85
Sorry to offend...no comparison was made, two truths are contrasted, the comparison is in your mind. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #95
The comparison is in your OP title, not my mind. nt stevenleser Jul 2014 #108
"Comparison" and "contrast" are different words, the subtle difference may be lost, the corruption Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #109
If I start an OP with the title saying "DUer Fred Sanders is like George W Bush" stevenleser Jul 2014 #112
Your comments interested me enough to post this: Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #116
You should spend more time reading the text at the link you provided. stevenleser Jul 2014 #125
Your responses in this and a few other threads on this topic... malokvale77 Jul 2014 #158
Good. And I mean that no matter which way you mean your comment. stevenleser Aug 2014 #285
Definitely not higher esteem... malokvale77 Aug 2014 #311
To compare means to highlight the similarities between two or more things Bluenorthwest Jul 2014 #151
stop it with comparison's to WW2. It is just wrong. You can disagree with Israel's foreign CTyankee Jul 2014 #89
There is another popular thread on the same thing, repost the same thing there..you are wrong. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #99
It is still not a good argument,no matter how many people post it. CTyankee Jul 2014 #141
I don't have to imagine: Last of Warsaw Ghetto Survivors Calls for Rebellion Against Israeli TalkingDog Jul 2014 #259
what a beautiful statement! CTyankee Aug 2014 #262
Glad you enjoyed it, but you didn't ask about a Jewish person making a direct comparison. TalkingDog Aug 2014 #268
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I think she has a real problem with the occupation, based on her CTyankee Aug 2014 #269
That is fantastic. Thank you. nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #278
Hamas is the reason Gaza is a ghetto Boom Sound 416 Jul 2014 #98
I love history, here is an account of the invasion of the Warsaw ghetto: Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #106
Apartheid South Africa is a better comparison than the Nazis LittleBlue Jul 2014 #107
With respect, both contrasts are applicable, the walled city of Gaza is a better contrast, but your Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #118
Not to go off topic, but.. westerebus Jul 2014 #132
The last thing Israel wants is a "final solution". This group currently in power want a never mulsh Jul 2014 #115
Hamas was democratically elected, as was the Israeli government, but only one is legit. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #122
They won't blow Gaza to dust because they want the land. randome Jul 2014 #134
you know it, I know it, analysts know it, Israel itself knows it: Bibithink is designed only for MisterP Jul 2014 #123
This message was self-deleted by its author lostincalifornia Jul 2014 #129
Some "Ghetto".. EX500rider Jul 2014 #133
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #137
Not a fan of Hamas, sorry...lots of places i don't want to live.. EX500rider Jul 2014 #139
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #148
So, one ghetto is bigger than another, and one was 80 years ago? Point taken, such as it is. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #138
No, the in the real Ghetto everybody starved, was shot or gassed. No positive pop. growth. EX500rider Jul 2014 #140
No... malokvale77 Jul 2014 #164
Maybe you missed the header of the OP "the Gaza ghetto is like the Warsaw ghetto." EX500rider Jul 2014 #169
I didn't miss anything malokvale77 Jul 2014 #174
Yes, the definition of the Warsaw Ghetto EX500rider Jul 2014 #176
So only Warsaw defines ghetto in your opinion... malokvale77 Jul 2014 #183
In the context of this OP we are only discussing whether Warsaw=Gaza, try to keep up EX500rider Jul 2014 #190
You keep up malokvale77 Jul 2014 #209
"The effect is what matters." EX500rider Jul 2014 #236
Israel is not done yet, are they? malokvale77 Jul 2014 #249
You may live in a ghetto. But your Ghetto doesn't resemble the Warsaw Ghetto onenote Aug 2014 #282
Bigger than Metropolitan Las Vegas. Some "ghetto". nt COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #153
War is not between equal sides AnalystInParadise Jul 2014 #143
You made me laugh, describing slaughter as a form of war....you really did. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #147
What the hell AnalystInParadise Jul 2014 #150
It is, but only on the sand table nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #182
Something for the deniers/apologists BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #155
You mean like this, although it is now the size of Las Vegas, some say, so can not be a ghetto.... Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #157
Could we see a map from 1957? oberliner Jul 2014 #185
Here you go: Maedhros Aug 2014 #302
In that map, Gaza is part of Egypt and the West Bank is part of Jordan oberliner Aug 2014 #303
Israel maintains effective control of Gaza and the West Bank Maedhros Aug 2014 #304
Not disputing that oberliner Aug 2014 #305
Rabid right wing sociopathy is a universal behavior felix_numinous Jul 2014 #159
Great opening statement emsimon33 Jul 2014 #160
Please forgive my naivete as a newcomer to DU cornball 24 Jul 2014 #163
we moderate posts via juries here, instead of moderators doing it steve2470 Jul 2014 #166
I think you got that right malokvale77 Jul 2014 #187
There is no comparison whatsoever and to say there is, is very disingenuous. William769 Jul 2014 #171
The Nazis were in a league all of their own, only Rwanda and Pol Pot come close steve2470 Jul 2014 #172
Agreed 100% William769 Jul 2014 #173
hey, did you see my lgbt thread in GD ? steve2470 Jul 2014 #179
No sorry I sisn't see it. William769 Jul 2014 #219
ok here ya go: steve2470 Jul 2014 #222
Thanks. William769 Jul 2014 #223
I agree. This kind of hyperbole doesn't help. n/t nomorenomore08 Aug 2014 #280
Yes, this is antisemitism and over the top nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #175
"Anti-semitic" has officially lost all meaning except as proxy for anyone not in lockstep. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #188
No it has not Fred nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #191
You may wish that were true, but it isn't. nt Codeine Jul 2014 #199
I have been a defender of you here on DU... malokvale77 Jul 2014 #201
Read this nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #203
I'm sorry nadin... malokvale77 Jul 2014 #220
That is not propaganda nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #231
It is propaganda when... malokvale77 Jul 2014 #255
Please quote the text from the linked Newsweek article that you claim to be propaganda. LTX Aug 2014 #261
No... malokvale77 Aug 2014 #270
It's not "research." It's a linked article. LTX Aug 2014 #271
Hard to link to what I see on the air waves. malokvale77 Aug 2014 #279
One more time. This isn't really that difficult. LTX Aug 2014 #283
Has nothing to do with what I was responding to malokvale77 Aug 2014 #284
A week ago I said the same thing and was told it was an unfair comparison. McCamy Taylor Jul 2014 #181
Gish Gallop bluestateguy Jul 2014 #193
Ninety-eight per cent of Warsaw's Jews perished oberliner Jul 2014 #196
Most as you know where deported to camps and murdered, you are a bit early to the comparison. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #198
Fred 50 of my family died at Treblybka nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #200
Yes, it is. How blind people can be. It is sad and very tragic... CTyankee Jul 2014 #211
Of course I am sorry for your loss and loss of all innocents, but labelling others who do not Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #214
Except that it is not just me pointing this comparison nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #216
Enlighten me, where is this charter, translated properly of course, you are exaggerating for affect, Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #227
Here, choice passage and link to full document at Yale Law School nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #229
The "kill every man woman and child part", where is that again, Nadine? Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #232
Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #235
One fourth of the population died of disease and starvation - not deported to camps oberliner Jul 2014 #212
The Gaza siege is not over yet, disease and starvation are next without power and water. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #215
In the years that the Gaza seige has been in place how many starvation deaths have there been? oberliner Jul 2014 #217
Well, there are around 2000 blown to bits deaths of children through the years, maybe they would Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #224
The number you are looking for is zero oberliner Jul 2014 #226
Interesting. Zero is also the number of Israeli children killed lately, not a one with a scratch. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #228
Have you looked up as to the role of Egypt in this? nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #218
Egypt is gripped by a dictatorial army general that overthrew a democratically elected government. I Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #230
You mean the fact that the border with Sinai is tightly sealed nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #233
Danziger agrees malaise Jul 2014 #237
And he is still wrong, just like the OP nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #238
Sis we agree on a lot of things malaise Jul 2014 #242
And the comparison is still wrong nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #245
She claimed I want Israel obliterated in above post.....she is not thinking right. Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #240
No Fred, I said Hamas wants it obliterated. nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #247
Pretty clearly written by you, quote " In my mind, you will not be happy until Israel is indeed Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #251
here - 840high Jul 2014 #241
, blkmusclmachine Jul 2014 #257
Ways in which Gaza is not "like" Warsaw Ghetto onenote Aug 2014 #281
And that is just the beginning of the differences. Such comparisons are disruptive flamebait aimed stevenleser Aug 2014 #287
Don't respond to creationists oberliner Aug 2014 #288
You want math. Here's some math. onenote Aug 2014 #297
The false equivalency is the outrage....the lies about missing soldiers as justification....your Fred Sanders Aug 2014 #298
The false equivalency is all on your part, not mine. onenote Aug 2014 #299

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
12. Israel is free of the blood of children, even as it flows like wine in the Gaza Ghetto. Any evidence
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:39 AM
Jul 2014

otherwise this past month? Even a scratch on a child not in the Ghetto?

Nope.

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
37. so, Hamas' inability to achieve their goal of Israeli civilian casualties
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:40 AM
Jul 2014

despite having fired about 1000 rockets into purely civilian targets (well, the devices aren't really 'aimed') makes everything ok in your mind?

sP

frylock

(34,825 posts)
145. never said that..
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:40 PM
Jul 2014

in fact I condemn those acts. do you condemn the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians, or is that just the cost of doing business?

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
165. The Palestinians aren't nearly as proficient
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 05:42 PM
Jul 2014

at killing Israelis as Israelis are at killing them. Neither are Palestinian rockets effective weapons of war relative to the armor, artillery and aircraft that have been pounding Gaza to rubble in retaliation for rockets that rarely hit anything.

ProdigalJunkMail

(12,017 posts)
170. so, again, because they suck at killing Israelis
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 05:59 PM
Jul 2014

they should be allowed to continue firing rockets into civilian areas?

sP

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
178. If the Israelis lift the blockade
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:16 PM
Jul 2014

of Gaza, end the occupation of the West Bank, accept the Palestinian's right to exist within their own state as was agreed to in its charter and either withdraws from or places its West Bank settlements under Palestinian governance, I'm confident the rockets will stop.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
204. Why wouldn't they?
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:49 PM
Jul 2014

Do you really believe that the Palestinians hate the Israelis so much that they'd pass up a chance for a homeland and peace just so they could continue being slaughtered by them?

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
207. Considering what's been going on
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:58 PM
Jul 2014

for the last 65 years, I can see why they might, but I doubt it. Very few people really want to sacrifice their children on the altar of their own hatreds, especially if the choice is that or a better life, and that goes for the Israelis too.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
213. The West Bank is mostly peaceful
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:12 PM
Jul 2014

Fatah gave up on destroying Israel. Hamas has that as part of it's charter. You noticed you mostly have heard nada out of the West Bank.

Let me fill a couple holes. There have been peaceful protests in the West Bank in support of civilians. Yes, a couple border police got more than just out of hand, but wonder why you have heard nada from the West Bank?

There are rumors of very serious anger at Hamas in Gaza...they are becoming a tad more concrete, but Hamas might face a very angry local population. One reason, the leadership is safely underground in sophisticated shelters. Far more sophisticated than, for example, the ad hock pipes that dot Israel and are fairly effective.

dsc

(51,989 posts)
221. so what have gay folk done to the likes of Hamas
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:20 PM
Jul 2014

in case you are wondering, Hamas also wants to kill all gays.

dsc

(51,989 posts)
239. you say that if Israel just did what Hamas wants then Hamas wouldn't want to kill them
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:39 PM
Jul 2014

so why, oh why, does Hamas wish to kill gays? Gays didn't take their land, gays didn't invade Gaza, gays didn't bomb any tunnels yet they are on record as wanting to kill all gays. So again, why should we think Hamas will change their opinion of Jews if Israel changes its behavior?

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
246. Hamas can want to kill all the Jews
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:53 PM
Jul 2014

and gays it wants, but that is never going to happen. Furthermore, there are Israeli parties that want to do pretty much the same thing to the Palestinians, gay or not. You argument is irrelevant to the issue at hand. It is a straw man.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
142. Some questions are too hard to answer. Thankfully no Israeli children have died, yet. However
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:33 PM
Jul 2014

if Israel's Cheney has his way, this will only escalate and more tragic deaths will occur, perhaps in Israel.

People of good conscience don't play tit for tat with dead children. Especially when there is zero on one side to back up that particularly reprehensible game.

Whoever starts a conflict bears the responsibility of all of its consequences. It is clear as day who started this one, under false pretenses, and why.

 

Billy Budd

(310 posts)
91. how many Israel children
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:56 AM
Jul 2014

have been slaughtered and how many Palestinians ...I think its zero Israeli children vs many many dozens of exterminated Palestinians little kids...like the four boys on the beach...I hope my posting privileges are not suspended for this post...

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
93. A quick google will tell you...
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:01 PM
Jul 2014
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#Effects

Missiles, rockets and mortars have killed 28 people within Israel as of 17 July 2014.[1] Most of those killed were civilians, including children.[19] The first casualties from the rocket fire were a 4-year-old boy and his grandfather, who were killed in June 2004.[136] Other victims include two small children, aged 2 and 4, who were killed while playing in the street later that same year,[136] and a teenage girl, Ayala-Haya (Ella) Abukasis, who was struck and killed while shielding her younger brother.[136] In addition, more than 1,700 have been injured.[27][137] Injuries have also occurred mainly among civilians, several of whom were injured very seriously.[19][137]

Misfired rockets have also killed and injured Palestinians within the Gaza Strip. However, due to harsh restrictions in information politics and a total lack of free press in the Gaza strip, precisely reporting the number of Palestinian victims is impossible. As far as it became known, the missiles, rockets and mortars have killed six Palestinians and injured dozens more. On June 8, 2005, rockets fired at the Israeli settlement of Ganei Tal killed two Palestinian workers and one Chinese worker in a packing plant. On August 2, 2005, a rocket apparently launched by Islamic Jihad killed a 6-year-old boy and his father in Beit Hanoun.[35] On December 26, 2008 a mortar aimed at Israel killed two Palestinian girls in the Gaza Strip, aged 5 and 12.[138]

Precisely counting the number of rockets fired is impossible, and differing estimates have been given. The injury figures and attack counts below are attributed to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs,[139] whilst the fatality figures have been independently compiled by Mondoweiss. Prior to September 4, 2005, the majority of attacks were against Israeli targets within the Gaza Strip.[139]
 

Billy Budd

(310 posts)
101. I was referring to current Gaza slaughter
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:20 PM
Jul 2014

You went back years. I am not aware of Israeli children in the current violence having been killed however since those figures change by the hour literally I did not want to say zero Israeli children had died in the current situation.

superpatriotman

(6,176 posts)
117. The above poster is heavily obfuscating
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:59 PM
Jul 2014

The cited civilian casualties are from 2004-2014. More kids have died in hot cars in my state since in the same period. Pretty dangerous.

superpatriotman

(6,176 posts)
128. Re read. Agreed.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:44 PM
Jul 2014

The Wiki piece is written to lead one to believe the casualty rate for 2014 is 28, which it is not.

Sorry.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
144. The question asked was clearly about the current slaughter of Palestinian children in Gaza. And
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:36 PM
Jul 2014
thankfully no Israeli children have been killed. I would think that would be something to be thankful for, not something to try to use for political purposes.

I hope it remains that way, as children are the most vulnerable victims of these horrors and no child, Israeli or Palestinian deserves to die because of the criminal actions of adults.

 

Caretha

(2,737 posts)
225. No spin?
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:23 PM
Jul 2014

Oh please....obvious is obvious. Surely you are smart enough to see that flew like a lead balloon.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
168. 28 people killed
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 05:54 PM
Jul 2014

and 1700 injured in 10 years. Is that correct? During that time did Israel ever lift the siege of Gaza? How many Palestinians have been killed and wounded by the IDF in the last 10 years? How many times has Hamas invaded Israel, destroyed its cities and slaughtered its people wholesale?

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
162. How many Israeli children
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 05:34 PM
Jul 2014

have been killed by Hamas lately? You are attempting to establish a false equivalency. No sale.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
22. And the Palestinians are the victims. I do not understand - are Hamas and Palestinian the same? No,
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:00 AM
Jul 2014

not anymore the same than Israel and Zionists. There needs to be a way to allow the Palestinians a place to live and survive.

Archae

(45,970 posts)
24. Well, let's see now...
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:06 AM
Jul 2014

ABC news showed video of Palestinian civilians laughing, cheering and celebrating the launch of Hamas rockets.

Hamas was (supposedly) elected to be the leaders of the Palestinians.

No one has yet been turned in for the murders of those 3 Israeli boys, while several are under arrest for the murder of that Palestinian boy.

FourScore

(9,704 posts)
38. Why does the argument "Israel has a right to defend itself" work for Isreal,
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:43 AM
Jul 2014

but not for the Palestinians? And how many people have the Hamas rockets killed since the fighting happened?

This "equivalency" bullshit that is propagated in the Israeli propaganda campaign is disgusting.

How many Palestinians have you seen interviewed on American TV compared to Israeli spokespersons?

The Israelis keep blurring the lines of Hamas so that Hamas and Palestinians become one, and they are not!

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
47. The argument does not work, it is just repeated ad nauseam. Old propaganda trick that the
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:57 AM
Jul 2014

the propagandized media regurgitates on command without question.

Galraedia

(5,001 posts)
307. Because Israel is using the old Bush/Cheney Reich-Wing playbook....
Tue Aug 5, 2014, 06:18 PM
Aug 2014

where everyone who opposes them is a terrorist or anti-semitic. Which is ironic considering Israel has been terrorizing and stealing land from the Palestinians for more than half a century.

1monster

(11,012 posts)
81. Are you telling me that there were not people who cheered the US going into Afghanistan and
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:45 AM
Jul 2014

Iraq? That there were not people RIGHT HERE ON DU cheering the death at US hands of bin Laden?

The Israelis are the enemy of the Palestinians. There can be no doubt about that. Just as bin Laden was the enemy of the US.

I didn't cheer for any of the above and find little to cheer about in any of the situations.

But to use that cheering to justify what is being done in Gaza just sickens me.

PS: The Israeli government acknowledged that Hamas had nothing to do with the kidnapping and murder of those three teens... so why should the Gazan be collectively punished for something they and Hamas were not guilty of?

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
177. yep, same reason conservapuke Christian Extremists here cheered the ginned up war
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:15 PM
Jul 2014

on the wrong nation in retaliation for the actions of a group of Islamic Extremists from a different country.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
90. And....
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:55 AM
Jul 2014


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/29/israelis-chant-there-are-no-children-left-in-gaza_n_5630601.html

Translated by HuffPost, the rabble sings: "There's no school in Gaza, there are no more kids left". The video concludes with the crowd chanting "Gaza is a cemetery".

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
120. ABC also
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:13 PM
Jul 2014

showed faked-up video of Palestinian civilians laughing, cheering and celebrating after 911.

ABC is certainly untrustworthy.
ABC has lost their credibility. I am surprised you do not know this. They are nearly indistinguishable from Fox News. My local ABC affiliate is the same as the local Fox.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
290. The celebration was not for 911.
Sun Aug 3, 2014, 01:34 PM
Aug 2014

Fox faked it, in their ignorance the others picked it up.

This was settled ages ago on DU. We have been though this before.

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
26. Hamas is about 1,100 men
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:17 AM
Jul 2014

That is an Israeli estimate. They are as much "at war with all Jews" as the Provisional IRA was at war against all Brits.

But go ahead posting Israeli propaganda for Israel is not all Jews it is not even a majority of Jews in the world and it is not even exclusively Jewish within its own borders

1monster

(11,012 posts)
75. Just like the Native Americans were at war with the US, especially circa 1880s and beyond...
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:38 AM
Jul 2014

The US had pushed the Native Americans into no man's land where there was next to nothing and still pushed until victory was total and the Native Americans were totally dispossessed. The parallels are there -- The N.A. were defending their lands, their peoples, and their ways of life; they were not the aggressors.

lark

(22,748 posts)
86. BS
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:51 AM
Jul 2014

Israel is at war with all arabs, especially the women and children - see the results of their war of choice. Funny that Hamas wasn't responsible for the 3 Israeli kids deaths, but that fact never stopped Israel from killing 13,000 folks in GAza. They are never one to let truth get in the way of their wars. Meet the new oppressor, same as the old one.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
102. You appear to be a great practitioner of the Ethics of Convenience.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:23 PM
Jul 2014

"Bullshit."

But you believe a mere home-owner's association is a Nazi dictatorship...

You appear to be a great practitioner of the Ethics of Convenience.

treestar

(82,352 posts)
136. So you are blaming other Palestinians for the actions of Hamas?
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:21 PM
Jul 2014

Hamas does not have any chance of eliminating Israel no matter how many charters they put out.

Israel does however have the capability to take more land. Their actions show their intent, even if they are too smart to put it in a charter.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
156. ...
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 03:59 PM
Jul 2014

"The Hamas leadership must be taken out," says coalition chairman Yariv Levin, considered one of the more influential MKs in the Likud party. "We can't leave the Gaza Strip as it is today. We need to create a wide swath of land beyond the border, that will be a no-man's-land that the Palestinians will not be allowed to enter. The area needs to be flattened, in the sense that there will be no houses that tunnels can be dug under."

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
186. He's talking about half of Gaza.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:28 PM
Jul 2014

This plan would effectively put 1.8 million people in an area of 70 sq. blockaded miles with their backs to the sea.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
272. Even if true, how does that justify killing civilians by the hundreds?
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 04:46 PM
Aug 2014

And I really dislike the Nazi comparisons myself, for the record.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
7. Truth is gonna get you hurt, propaganda makes it go away, not thinking of the children brings sleep.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:25 AM
Jul 2014

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
5. Israeli military strength in part:
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:24 AM
Jul 2014

4,000 tanks
10,000 armoured fighting vehicles
706 propelled artillery
350 towed artillery
88 multiple launch missile systems

680 aircraft

Need I go on? Now that is an army that can conduct both war AND a pogrom..made for both.

Hamas: 0 of everything above.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=israel






Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
8. Stupid enough for you to point it out, guess others may have an opinion also. Take it to the jury,
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:27 AM
Jul 2014

Complain about the stupidity, double dare.

Liberal_Dog

(11,075 posts)
9. Jury Result
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:30 AM
Jul 2014

On Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:20 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

This is not a "war", it is a pogrom in a ghetto, the Gaza ghetto is like the Warsaw ghetto, and
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025316146

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Use of "Final Solution". Fine to use when 6 million Jew, 11 million total people wiped out. In this case, abhorrent. (This is not a judgement on Israel's behavior)

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:27 AM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: So sick of this. This person has been non stop with the border line antisemitism. You know what makes DU suck? This kind of over the top hyperbole. Hide.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I agree with the post. Obviously, I am not going to hide it.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Since when do we alert on the truth?
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I was Juror #2.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
11. Every post that does not lick the boots of Israeli propaganda is referred to the jury, it is a given
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:33 AM
Jul 2014

Thank you.

The words "final solution" have not been given exclusive rights to anyone, even CNN used the term today, they are just words, trying to monopolize words is propaganda.

.................

Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Since when do we alert on the truth?

Thank you Juror # 5, you get it.

mikeysnot

(4,744 posts)
31. I've been on here since they instituted that
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:29 AM
Jul 2014

jury system and I have tripled my duties in the last two weeks.

Someone has an itchy trigger finger.

Making any accurate observation of the current plight of the Palestinians in Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto in Poland during WWII, is a big no-no to the "pro-slaughter of Palestinians in what's left of Palestine" crowd...

And the Israelis continue to push Palestine into the sea, all the while claiming victim hood.

Response to Fred Sanders (Reply #11)

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
289. Cavers make the same argument regarding why they should be allowed to participate here.
Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:38 PM
Aug 2014

The answer is because the admins and DU community have decided that racist, disruptive, regressive garbage does not belong here.

The Israel-->Nazi comparisons are disruptive flame bait aimed at slapping holocaust survivors and their families in the face.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
291. Then you are suggesting
Sun Aug 3, 2014, 01:54 PM
Aug 2014

than certain discourse should be censored? I would agree about some things, such as arguments furthering pedophilia or genocide, but not for comparisons to historical events that happened eighty years ago and have happened since. How many generations would you suggest pass before contemporary comparisons to genocidal fascism become acceptable, or is it just the use of the word Nazi that you object to when making such a comparison?

 

Billy Budd

(310 posts)
103. The Jury System is being used
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:25 PM
Jul 2014

, in my opinion, to suppress criticism of Israel. I believe it is done methodically and constantly at times like this when Israel is exposed....

Galraedia

(5,001 posts)
308. The Tactic of Calling People Anti-Semitic
Tue Aug 5, 2014, 06:40 PM
Aug 2014
The tactic of calling people "anti-semitic" who oppose Israel's actions is getting quite tired.

Is it your contention that we in the left should look the other way as Palestinians are oppressed, tortured and murdered, with the help of US tax dollars and US diplomatic cover? Are Palestinians not people? Don't they deserve equal rights? How is it acceptable that Palestinians cannot return to their native land, but have been living in refugee camps for nearly 60 years? Why do their lives not count?

Are we supposed to look the other way while Israel brutalizes the Lebanese, and leaves millions of cluster bombs on their land, left to kill and maim Lebanese children?

Let's just consider the facts on the ground, which lead people to oppose Israel, instead of trying to deconstruct the supposed reason for people objecting to Israel, and ascribing racist motivation for their opposition.

1. The State of Israel was built on land that had been populated by Palestinians as well as a small minority of Jews. This land was given to Zionists by Britain and the UN. No on asked the Palestinians what they thought of sharing their land, or what they would think of being ethnic cleansed and murdered in the process of building the new ethnic state. Of course there would be resistance by the indigenous people, and the response to the resistance would involve the usual methods of oppression, with the greater the response to the resistance, the more accumulated grievances, and the more persistant the resistance would become.


Read more: http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/old/War/Amy.htm

vssmith

(1,224 posts)
13. The abused become the abusers
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:39 AM
Jul 2014

“Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Bettie

(15,581 posts)
14. Yes...it is sadly true
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:40 AM
Jul 2014

And I'd also point out that disagreeing with the government of Israel doesn't make one an anti-Semite.

Israel's government is a right wing nightmare, with those currently in charge of it intent on exterminating the people they have designated as subhuman.

I don't know that the same is the majority opinion of the citizenry.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
16. The right wing reactionary government of Israel is not the Isrseli people, I get and accept that.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:43 AM
Jul 2014

It is the current Israeli government I detest, not the people in general, just as I would detest the German government of the 1930's who enslaved the German people with propaganda and domestic terrorism, now that job is done by the media.

Bettie

(15,581 posts)
21. I'm right with you there
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:58 AM
Jul 2014

I'm disgusted that our government (assuming you're in the US) is choosing to side with those who would commit genocide.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
25. This is an incredibly important point
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:06 AM
Jul 2014

and it cannot be made often enough. Thanks for making this crystal clear.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
51. I'm sorry, but it appears the Israeli people are fully behind their murderous government.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:02 AM
Jul 2014

Just like the Boers in South Africa. They benefit from the racist apartheid state and support it.

mazzarro

(3,450 posts)
260. Thank you for pointing that out
Fri Aug 1, 2014, 06:28 AM
Aug 2014

It appears that the Israeli people are always conveniently made out to be innocent and separate from the actions of their government and army at all times but such is never the case for the Palestinians who are always blamed for Hamas; and who are always required to throw out Hamas as a precondition for anything decent to be done for them.

arikara

(5,562 posts)
154. And I'm likewise sickened by our Canadian government
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 03:51 PM
Jul 2014

for taking the side of butchers. I'm well aware that many of the Israeli people do not hold with what is being done by their government.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
295. Same here
Mon Aug 4, 2014, 02:05 AM
Aug 2014

ugh, if I have to hear another disgustingly one-sided statement by John Baird I'm going to hurl.

Just like with the Iraq war, I think most people are able to separate the government with the people...and even with the people who support war and those who don't. During the run up to Iraq, I was able to be against the US government, be with the Americans that didn't want to go to war, and be angry with those who thought voting for Bush was a great idea. Some of us are able to hold nuanced positions.

arikara

(5,562 posts)
296. Nuanced positions. Exactly that.
Mon Aug 4, 2014, 12:31 PM
Aug 2014

Although when 911 first happened I was quite amazed at how many otherwise intelligent people believed the official story hook line and sinker and figured that first Afghanistan then Iraq needed to be bombed, and also thought Chimpy and company were saviors.

I haven't been watching the news lately at all, I can't stand listening to the so called "Harper government" pronouncements they make me sick too.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
18. It is about the government
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:54 AM
Jul 2014

We could have had a McCain or Romney here, and been making more war.

We could still have bush types like Israel does. But we don't, so we have 'relative' peace.

People attacking peace mongers as haters because the peacers don't cotton to some old testament religious types, are just talking crazy.

Carry on, Fred. You are on the correct path. Glad to stand with you.

 

pocoloco

(3,180 posts)
19. Eric Hoffer described this phenomenon in one of his books.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:55 AM
Jul 2014

Sorry, can't remember which one. He claimed an abused nation would act the same as an abused child and if they ever became in control they would abuse those they had power over.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
252. The True Believer?
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:59 PM
Jul 2014

I think that's the one. It's been a few years since I read it.

In it, there is a lot that would also explain so many self styled liberals who support Israel's brutal actions.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
23. There are a number of Israeli politicians
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:05 AM
Jul 2014

Netanyahoo (sic) first among them, who learned all the wrong lessons from Nazi Germany. I am not equating the two, so settle yer jimmies, but their methodologies grow ever closer.

alfredo

(59,994 posts)
28. Why doesn't Israel set up refugee camps in the exclusion zone if they are
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:20 AM
Jul 2014

concerned about civilian deaths?

Dustlawyer

(10,474 posts)
30. 80% civilian deaths is not collateral damage!
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:28 AM
Jul 2014

I don't care about this side or that. What I do see is what Israel is doing right now, with this over-the-top response is wrong! Many Jewish leaders and Rabbis feel the same way! The treatment of the Palestinians is causing them to be equally bad in actions, but not in volume or effectiveness. Israel is compounding their problems in the future unless they kill all Palestinians. It seems to be their goal here. They know the Palestinians will try to respond to this atrocity which Israel will use as justification to eventually wipe them out!

Dustlawyer

(10,474 posts)
195. 20% children by this articles admission. It assumes every male of a certain age is a Hamas soldier,
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:35 PM
Jul 2014

Not true. See the interviews with the doctors at Shifa hospital. None of this is ok. 20% children! At what percent of child deaths would YOU say is too much? Would your percentage change if they were Israeli kids?

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
202. Just do the math.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:46 PM
Jul 2014

Hamas has around 1,000 combatants. There are 1.8 million densely packed people in Gaza. The death toll has now surpassed 1,400. Hamas continues to offer stiff resistance on the ground to the IDF and fire rockets into Israel. Either Israel has pretty much wiped out Hamas and is not receiving stiff resistance, or the overwhelming majority of these casualties are non-combatants.

EX500rider

(9,719 posts)
256. 1,000 combatants? Add a zero or two..
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 08:59 PM
Jul 2014
In 2003, Hamas leaders estimated the number of troops in the Qassam Brigade’s ranks at around 20,000. However, some observers believe it is closer to 40,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades#Armed_strength
 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
258. I could be wrong about the number
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:48 PM
Jul 2014

of fighters. I'm not wrong about the percentage of military to civilian casualties.

Mosby

(15,585 posts)
32. You claim you're just talking about Israel
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:33 AM
Jul 2014

But then you use a term like "final solution" and compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto.

You're not fooling anyone.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
274. Wish we had the unrec feature on DU3.
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 04:54 PM
Aug 2014

Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza, and this isn't the first time. But fuck the Nazi comparisons - all it does is provide ammo to those who cheer on the mass killing of Arabs.

Response to Mosby (Reply #32)

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
39. I dunno. Israel has its share of Palins, Cruz's and Bachmanns also, it draws them toomuch attention.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:43 AM
Jul 2014

Mock them I will, but give them the attention they crave like vodka to an alcoholic, no.

JustAnotherGen

(31,083 posts)
36. Quick question
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:35 AM
Jul 2014

Is there evidence that the Israeli Government intends to engage in a mass deportation or series of them - to some sort of death camp after the Hamas folks finish the uprising?

I'm not being snarky - or a smart ass. It's a serious question.

Anyone know if this is the case? After the uprising to avoid in particular Treblinka - a death factory - folks still got deported. At the end of the war there were still about 11K jews that were able to survive in hiding on the Non Jew/Aryan side of Warsaw.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
40. The are just "mowing the grass", flowers and weeds together, when it grows too tall, they want
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:46 AM
Jul 2014

to keep the lawn though, it is the only thing keeping America compliant.

See WillyT post above.

JustAnotherGen

(31,083 posts)
57. I don't see the post by WillyT above
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:12 AM
Jul 2014

The other thing that - I think I recall - is that the Jewish uprising in the Warsaw ghetto did not have direct outside assistance. They did inflict severe well deserved casualties against the Nazis with some smuggled arms - but in general there was a great deal of smuggling to survive in those 1.3 square miles with a population of more 400K people.

Now the funny thing is - if I recall it correctly - The Nazis, when they showed up weren't even there to send the remaining 70K/80K to Treblinka. Down from the 400K due to being sent to death camps, starvation, illness, etc. etc. They were going to be forced out and into labor camps. At the end though - after weeks and weeks of resistance - some did end up going there. Yet others survived even the Polish uprising against the Nazis that the Russians made no effort to intervene in. That uprising was based upon the belief by the citizens of Warsaw that with the Russians on the horizon - they would intervene on their behalf.

JustAnotherGen

(31,083 posts)
58. The 'mowing the grass' thing
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:13 AM
Jul 2014

reminds me of 'Cut The Tall Trees' - when the Hutus (individual citizens) struck down their Tutsi neighbors, friends, work peers, etc. etc. in the mid 1990s.

CrawlingChaos

(1,893 posts)
277. Or perhaps this time it's the endgame. They may flatten it, expel the survivors and take it.
Sat Aug 2, 2014, 05:05 PM
Aug 2014

I just came across this chilling piece:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Into-the-fray-Why-Gaza-must-go-368862

Or they may be "mowing the grass" again. Either way, the Palestinians know, it means their destruction. It's a matter of slow death or quick.

It's so surreal to see DUers still defending Israel's actions. Fucking surreal.

JustAnotherGen

(31,083 posts)
104. I read his article
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:29 PM
Jul 2014

But I didn't see a mass extermination plan. I did see where this Rand Paul/Louis Gohmert/Ted Cruz wannabe wants to give advanced warning of impending attacks and move the Palestinians to Sinai - but I don't see the policy of extermination by any means necessary.

Funny - how right wing wingnuts around the world all walk the same walk and talk the same talk.

I remember in the late 80's the 'theory' amongstsome of my peers in the black community that the street lights in our communities were a 'different color' in order to readily target us. Crazy talk from some Farrakhan fans at my high school.

But it's the same kind of crazy talk ya know?

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
210. I have a feeling
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:05 PM
Jul 2014

that once this round is over, the people of Gaza will be living in an area about half the size it is now.

muriel_volestrangler

(100,491 posts)
42. UN human rights official, 2009: Gaza evokes memories of Warsaw Ghetto
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:47 AM
Jul 2014
There is evidence that Israel committed war crimes during its 22-day campaign in the Gaza Strip and there should be an independent inquiry, UN investigator Richard Falk said Thursday.

The mental anguish of the civilians who suffered the assault is so great that the entire population of Gaza could be seen as casualties, said Falk, UN special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
...
Falk said Israel had made no effort to allow civilians to escape the fighting.

"To lock people into a war zone is something that evokes the worst kind of international memories of the Warsaw Ghetto, and sieges that occur unintentionally during a period of wartime," Falk, who is Jewish, said, referring to the starvation and murder of Warsaw's Jews by Nazi Germany in World War II.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/un-human-rights-official-gaza-evokes-memories-of-warsaw-ghetto-1.268743
 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
44. agreed. just last night I was questioning the use of the word "war"
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:51 AM
Jul 2014

The civilians are not "collateral damage." They are targets.

The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence. The doctrine is named after a southern suburb in Beirut with large apartment buildings which were flattened by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the 2006 Lebanon War. Israel has been accused of implementing the strategy during the Gaza War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

enid602

(8,213 posts)
48. Bibi
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:57 AM
Jul 2014

I think Bibi has overplayed his cards. He chose the present time to go for broke, as he knows the US is engaged in other crises. The Shiites and Sunni are engaged in their own serious rift, and Bibi has the 'iron dome,' which has been spectacularly effective in repelling Gazan missiles. Why not go for the prize?

On the other hand, Israel is increasingly isolated. Sure, no American politicians will speak out for fear of losing donations, but the US is not in a financial or mental state which will allow it to commit any serious resources to an Israeli-Arab conflict, should it escalate. Teheran and Riyadh seem quiet now on the topic of Gaza; hard to tell, really, given media coverage. Still, could the 'iron dome' (which requires a $65K investment for each missile it repels) really protect Israel from a serious, concentrated Arab assault? Has Bibi chosen the right time in history for this Israeli assault, or are the Arabs merely biding their time? Bibi's given the Arabs motive . . .

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
50. No coincidence that the slaughter began just after the chaos of the Malaysian jet shot down.....
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:01 AM
Jul 2014

The pogrom was on the program, waiting for the right time to commence the attack on people and on the truth. You have to attack in both fronts when you are the clear aggressor.

Cary

(11,743 posts)
71. Where is the outrage from the Arab world?
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:33 AM
Jul 2014

Why is no one talking about how Egypt is blowing up the terror tunnels and isolating Hamas? Do you think ignoring how Hamas plays into the rest of the Arab world negates the reality of the 1,000 plus years of Sunni vs. Shiite?

Hamas is a proxy. Palestinians are pawns. We Jews, as usual, are made a scapegoat.

There is no decent government in the Middle East, aside from Israel and there are 1 million Arab Israeli citizens living in relative prosperity and peace. Where is the corresponding Jewish population in any of the 22 Arab piece of shit governments? While you're at it show me which one of those governments is fair to Druze and Kurds and other minority Arab communities.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
72. Same amount of outrage from the Western world GOVERNMENTS, correction added. The Arab people
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:35 AM
Jul 2014

are plenty outraged, but the Saudi dictators, the Arab dictators that also enslave their people, these dictators and religious freaks extraordinaire being proxy for the Arab people, you will have to do far better than that, my friend.

Cary

(11,743 posts)
88. Israel's government is a true democracy
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:53 AM
Jul 2014

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all others.

You just don't like it that Israel exists and that she will do what she feels she needs to do in order to survive. You think Israel is not a decent government unless it acts the way you want her to act, which is that you want Israel to cease being Israel.

To you that's "decency."

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
114. By "government" I'm referring specifically to the right-wing Netanyahu regime,
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:52 PM
Jul 2014

not generally to the structure of Israel's government.

I do not object to the existence of Israel at all. I do believe that Palestine presents no existential threat to Israel, and that as an occupying nation Israel has certain obligations to the Palestinians under international law. Israel is not meeting those obligations and is instead engaging in collective punishment of Palestinian citizens for the actions of a small minority (Hamas).

I think Netanyahu's government is not decent because it herds Palestinians into ever-shrinking ghettos and then pummels the general population with military force.

It's clear that you are an Israeli propagandist, so I will ignore you now.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
161. It's not a democracy when some citizens are treated better than others.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 05:31 PM
Jul 2014

There is rampant, legal discrimination in Israel against Arab-Israelis, in particular. It is systemic.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.550152

Based on our organization‘s ongoing monitoring of government policy toward Arab citizens, we see that 10 years after the report, not only has there been no redistribution, but the ongoing allocation of resources in almost all spheres is still very unequal. The result is acute inequality in all areas of life. We are not ignoring the areas in which the government has taken certain steps to reduce discrimination, such as the establishment of the Authority for the Economic Development of the Arab Sector in the Prime Minister’s Office, and the implementation of programs to increase employment of the Arab citizens. If these steps were to be expanded, they could bring about a change in the socioeconomic situation of Arab citizens and reduce inequality

But in parallel, the government has been promoting programs that are liable to reignite tensions across the country. The most prominent is the Prawer plan, or “The Plan for the Regulation of Bedouin Settlement in the Negev,” which will result in the uprooting of tens of thousands of Bedouin Arab citizens from their homes, forcing them to relocate and likely lose most of their land. At the same time, the government is promoting programs and offering incentives for young Jews to build new Jewish communities in the Negev, as it continues to offer generous benefits to a small group of Jewish citizens in the “private farms” program.

The commission made special mention of land, because it is a deep-seated factor in the contentious relations between the Arab citizens and the government. It courageously maintained that “the state must allocate land to the Arab sector in accordance with fair principles, as to other sectors of the population.” Here too it should be noted that in the past decade we have seen significant government investment in promoting master plans in Arab communities, but specifically in the important sphere of land allocation, there has been almost no improvement in the past 10 years.

In order to demonstrate the depth of discrimination we can point out that since the foundation of the state until this day, the two groups - Arabs and Jews - have grown at similar rates (eight to tenfold), but that the state has established 700 (!) new communities for Jews (including new cities) - and not a single one for Arabs, with the exception of permanent towns for Bedouin citizens who were removed from their homes. The result is a very severe housing shortage in the Arab communities and many thousands of house demolition orders in these communities. In addition, tens of thousands of Bedouin Arab citizens in the Negev continue to live in disgraceful conditions in unrecognized communities and they lack the most basic living conditions.

malaise

(263,585 posts)
264. NO it is not democratic
Fri Aug 1, 2014, 07:48 AM
Aug 2014

No democratic government bombs people when three citizens are kidnapped and killed.
They use the justice system. Notice that after starting this slaughter, they realized that Hamas did not kill those three youngsters.

You don't have democracy for your ethnic group and slaughter for others and call it a democracy. Carter is right - this is apartheid and I would add on steroids.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
55. "Not news or information pertaining to this conflict"', that was the reason? Precious.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:11 AM
Jul 2014

I expect the same lame reason for a lockout on my thread, too much attention being attracted to
the similarities.

When do the deportations begin?

steve2470

(37,434 posts)
61. I object to direct comparisons with the Nazis...
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:17 AM
Jul 2014

I think we could say it's a huge ghetto, but I think you need to go study the Nazis in depth as I have. When you start making Nazi comparisons, you lose people like me. YES IT'S FUCKING BAD. THE NAZIS WERE 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 TIMES WORSE. We agree to disagree, I'm afraid. Good bye.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
74. I don't think 'bad vs worse' precludes
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:37 AM
Jul 2014

pointing out that the same TYPE of activities are occurring in specific instances. Otherwise you simply lose the ability to compare ANY two situations that are not 100% identical in 'depths of badness'.

I think that's an argument made by people who want to offer up excuses for badness that is 'not bad enough'.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
59. A quibble (ok, more than a quibble) on the disparity issue.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:14 AM
Jul 2014

The Iraq war resulted in the deaths of up to half a million Iraqis in the years immediately following our destruction of a lot of their infrastructure, but only a few American civilian (contractor) deaths.

That jumps us right down to your point in the second to last paragraph.


America and Israel belong on the same psych ward, and in the same courtroom.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
62. Also zero American children killed in both Iraq and Afghanistan, which is why both America and
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:18 AM
Jul 2014

Israel are so at peace with it all.

No casualties, no body bags seen, ignorance is bliss.

Cary

(11,743 posts)
66. "Israelis want a 'final solution,' having apparently forgotten their own history."
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:26 AM
Jul 2014

This is not an objectively reasonable opinion.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
69. Finally someone who wants objectivity!
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:32 AM
Jul 2014

Math is objective, right?

Palestinians killed, about 1400, hard to keep up, so it is estimated.

Israelis killed.....I forgot, someone fill this in.

Palestinian children killed, 300 or so. Again, hard to keep up with the child slaughter stats.

Israelis children killed, 0, must be correct, because we would all know because the media would be bursting with the news.

I do love math, so objective.

Cary

(11,743 posts)
73. So according to your "math"...
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:37 AM
Jul 2014

... if an equal number were killed on both sides it would be okay.

I'm glad I learned math from a different teacher.

JustAnotherGen

(31,083 posts)
130. I think that's a fair question
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:46 PM
Jul 2014

I wonder - if Hamas were to say - take out a school full of Israeli children-

If there would be any anger at DU?

I'm getting the feeling that this wouldn't be the case.

I think it would be more along the lines of . . . "So sad - but but but but . . ." Like a tip of that - that's so (diminished) sad. Then cheering for Hamas at the blood shed/revenge/direct hit.

There really are very very few pacifists at DU.

I wasn't aware that I was in such a small minority until the past few weeks.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
180. Given the reaction to the cafe and bus
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:20 PM
Jul 2014

Bombings in the early 2000s it would barely register am afraid.

I want this madness to stop, for the sake of the kids in both Ashkelon and Gaza...but the OP is rank antisemitism disguised as anti Israeli

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
189. Nope, it is what it is
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:31 PM
Jul 2014

A reason why Jews are starting to flee France, because wearing a kipah is dangerous and can get you killed. Why a merchant in Belgium said dogs were ok, but Jews not so much. These comparisons to nazi Germany and South Africa are exactly antisemitism disguised as anti Israeli.

I wonder how long until "Jews to the Gas Chambers" and "Death to the Jews" or "Hitler was right" will happen regularly on American streets. Please proceed Fred. It is what it is. You are helping to get those flames going. And where do you think Jews will go? French Jews are taking one way trips to Ben Gurion out of well founded fear

How long until American Jews do likewise? Own it...

SQUEE

(1,315 posts)
300. Your blase denial of the horror of my families past..
Tue Aug 5, 2014, 04:40 PM
Aug 2014

And why we fear powerful groups of men.

People like you are why I am armed, and will remain so. Never again means something very different to this Jew and his family, and many many more like us.

You rely on reason, and explain away other peoples hatred because you can not fathom it. There is no reason attached to hatred just blind mindless animalistic need to hurt, kill rape and destroy. Your level headed and quite safe life hides that truth from you.
I have seen horror in this very world of ours and know that no people are immune, and that includes MINE, The GOVERNMENT of Israel is wrong in the lengths it is going, but you want to blame all the people of Israel, to make a blanket and broad brush indictment on an entire nation... that is bigotry. And it is what I was raised to not abide in any form, and to fight to my dying breath.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
301. Your blasť ability to put words in other people's mouths and then play the victim is surely the true
Tue Aug 5, 2014, 05:25 PM
Aug 2014

reason you say you are armed.

Strawmen attacks are boring as I have said often lately.

SQUEE

(1,315 posts)
309. duly noted
Tue Aug 5, 2014, 10:37 PM
Aug 2014

but I am not nor will not be a victim. Take that as you will, enjoy your night. Nothing I can ever say or show you will convince you anyway.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
306. I would be outraged
Tue Aug 5, 2014, 06:16 PM
Aug 2014

I am anti-war, anti-murder. I fucking hate what Israel has done. What we did in Iraq. What Isis and Syria are doing. What Russia is doing.

People are so good at killing each other. Will we ever evolve past the blood thirst? Somehow I don't think we will.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
208. No it isn't objective.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:03 PM
Jul 2014

The Israelis just want the land. They'd be happy if the Palestinians just went away, but since they won't, no Israeli government has had a problem slowly pushing them onto reservations and into ghettos.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
79. You made the comparison to the Warsaw Ghetto
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:43 AM
Jul 2014

I don't think you realize the full extent of the Nazis' evil. That, or you're being willfully obtuse.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
119. You understand that the Nazis first starved the people for years and then liquidated them, right?
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:02 PM
Jul 2014

And no, not all of them were liquidated by shipping them out to concentration camps and gassing them.

calimary

(79,155 posts)
80. I read another thread here - I think it was nadin's (?) about the "Samson Option."
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:45 AM
Jul 2014

Wonder if that's ... well ... I don't even want to think about it.

VERY disturbing. And it would be a "final solution" for more than just Israel and the Palestinians, I fear.



Found it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025312076

TheKentuckian

(23,947 posts)
92. MAD is the ballgame with nuclear weapons for everyone that has them.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:01 PM
Jul 2014

It is 100% deterrence that implies complete destruction if a line is crossed.

That goes for everyone which is why the things are an abomination and why anti - proliferation is a big deal, everyone knows that eventually someone will have a line too easily crossed and the world goes to Hell in a hand basket, there is no winning a nuclear war so they are by definition a doomsday device and nothing else.

Every country when push comes to shove will destroy the world rather than be destroyed alone, that is the game and it can only be won if no one plays at all.

calimary

(79,155 posts)
267. Yeah. No kidding.
Fri Aug 1, 2014, 11:01 AM
Aug 2014

Knowing some of these nutcases, deterrence isn't it. They don't care. If they're religious extremists, they're not GONNA care. It just means they think that will force the Hand of God and make Jesus come back, or hasten the Apocalypse as they think it's gonna be, or ensure their arrival at some sort of Valhalla in the sky with milk and honey and dozens of eagerly-waiting virgins or whatever-the-hell. Now, if you thought THAT was what was behind the ultimate "Door Number 3," why hesitate?

That's what worries me most. The dingdongs with their "closely held 'beliefs'" who are just sure their actions can force the Hand, and the Divine Schedule, of God.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
85. I don't think anyone who has thoroughly researched ghettos under the Nazis would agree.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:51 AM
Jul 2014

What you have done is reached for the most sensational and over the top comparison you can find in order to generate outrage.

I am not happy with Israel and have not been for several years. You will not see posts defending them from me.

Criticism of the Israelis on multiple fronts and issues is pretty easy to make if you take just a few moments to make good ones.

You don't need over the top ISRAEL=NAZIS!!!!11!1! arguments.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
95. Sorry to offend...no comparison was made, two truths are contrasted, the comparison is in your mind.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:11 PM
Jul 2014

"To lock people into a war zone is something that evokes the worst kind of international memories of the Warsaw Ghetto, and sieges that occur unintentionally during a period of wartime," Falk, who is Jewish, said, referring to the starvation and murder of Warsaw's Jews by Nazi Germany in World War II.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/un-human-rights-official-gaza-evokes-memories-of-warsaw-ghetto-1.268743

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
109. "Comparison" and "contrast" are different words, the subtle difference may be lost, the corruption
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:46 PM
Jul 2014

of language is a lot of the problem.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
112. If I start an OP with the title saying "DUer Fred Sanders is like George W Bush"
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:49 PM
Jul 2014

You are going to say I am comparing you to George W. Bush and suggesting you are similar to him. Any attempt to suggest otherwise you are going to regard as an attempt to dodge the real comparison I would have made with the title.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
125. You should spend more time reading the text at the link you provided.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:24 PM
Jul 2014

You use several logical fallacies with this OP.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
158. Your responses in this and a few other threads on this topic...
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 04:31 PM
Jul 2014

have caused me to rethink everything else you have posted on DU.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
285. Good. And I mean that no matter which way you mean your comment.
Sun Aug 3, 2014, 12:09 AM
Aug 2014

If you agree with me, I hope you hold my opinions in higher esteem as a result.

If you are the kind of person that thinks the Israel=Nazis comparisons is proper discourse, I hope you put me on ignore and never listen or watch me again. I have no need of the support of people who think that gross hyperbole aimed at slapping the victims of the holocaust in the face is a good way of dialoguing.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
311. Definitely not higher esteem...
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:26 PM
Aug 2014

but not because I'm the "kind of person that thinks the Israel=Nazis comparisons is proper discourse".

More because I find you to be a mouth piece for the most unholy.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
151. To compare means to highlight the similarities between two or more things
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 03:44 PM
Jul 2014

To contrast means to highlight the differences between two or more things. When one says 'this is like that' one is making a comparison, not a contrast. Let us compare and contrast a banana and a school bus. Both are yellow (compare) but the bus is much larger, has an engine and the banana is a piece of fruit (contrast).
The poster you are speaking with is fully aware of the meanings of both words.

CTyankee

(62,973 posts)
89. stop it with comparison's to WW2. It is just wrong. You can disagree with Israel's foreign
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:54 AM
Jul 2014

policy in very strong terms, but using WW2 events in comparison does not look good. Have some sensitivity here...

CTyankee

(62,973 posts)
141. It is still not a good argument,no matter how many people post it.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:31 PM
Jul 2014

Can you imagine how someone Jewish would feel about Israel being compared to the Nazis act of evil with the Warsaw Ghetto? Even those Jews who strongly disagree with Netanyatu's policies would be repelled. There better ways to state your argument.

TalkingDog

(9,001 posts)
259. I don't have to imagine: Last of Warsaw Ghetto Survivors Calls for Rebellion Against Israeli
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:04 PM
Jul 2014
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/04/09/last-of-warsaw-ghetto-survivors-calls-for-rebellion-against-israeli-occupation/

On Yom Ha-Shoah, one of the few remaining living survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto, Chavka Fulman-Raban, delivered a fierce denunciation of evil and injustice, including the Israeli Occupation.

CTyankee

(62,973 posts)
262. what a beautiful statement!
Fri Aug 1, 2014, 07:31 AM
Aug 2014

Not to be too nit-picky here, but what I read was not a direct comparison of the state of Israel with the perpetrators of the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto. I did not read her statement as wishing for destruction of the state of Israel, but she clearly stands for justice and peace, not at all the goal of the Nazis which was just destruction and obliteration of an whole population. I think she feels that Israel needs a different policy, led my Jewish beliefs and tradition. I think she wants to end the suffering caused by Israel, but not the wiping out of the Jewish state.

IMO, hers is a fine, eloquent statement, one that many in my largely progressive, Jewish neighborhood could heartily endorse. Ditto my stepdaughter, who is a rabbi, leading a Reform Jewish congregation in Arizona.

Thank you for sharing that statement! It has lifted my spirits today!

TalkingDog

(9,001 posts)
268. Glad you enjoyed it, but you didn't ask about a Jewish person making a direct comparison.
Fri Aug 1, 2014, 07:13 PM
Aug 2014

You asked how they would feel about it. Given that she was in Warsaw and she opposes Occupation, I don't imagine she'd have much problem with it.

CTyankee

(62,973 posts)
269. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I think she has a real problem with the occupation, based on her
Fri Aug 1, 2014, 07:17 PM
Aug 2014

religious beliefs. I think she feels it is in direct contradiction of what she considers Jewish teaching and faith. That is what I got from the clip you posted.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
106. I love history, here is an account of the invasion of the Warsaw ghetto:
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:35 PM
Jul 2014

April to May 1943Edit


Stroop Report original caption: "Forcibly pulled out of dug-outs". Captured Jews are led by German troops to the assembly point for deportation. Picture taken at Nowolipie street, near the intersection with Smocza.

Stroop Report original caption: "A patrol." SS men on Nowolipie street.

Stroop Report original caption: "Destruction of a housing block." Photo from intersection of Zamenhofa and Wołyńska.
On 19 April 1943, on the eve of Passover, the police and SS auxiliary forces entered the Ghetto. They were planning to complete the deportation action within three days, but were ambushed by Jewish insurgents firing and tossing Molotov cocktails and hand grenades from alleyways, sewers, and windows. The Germans suffered casualties and their advance bogged down. Two of their combat vehicles (an armed conversion of a French-made Lorraine 37L light armored vehicle and an armored car) were set on fire by insurgent petrol bombs.[35] Following von Sammern-Frankenegg's failure to contain the revolt, he lost his post as the SS and police commander of Warsaw. He was replaced by SS-Brigadeführer Jürgen Stroop, who rejected von Sammern-Frankenegg's proposal to call in bomber aircraft from Kraków and proceeded to lead a better-organized and reinforced ground attack.

The longest-lasting defense of a position took place around the ŻZW stronghold at Muranowski Square, where the ŻZW chief leader, Dawid Moryc Apfelbaum, was killed in combat. On the afternoon of 19 April, a symbolic event took place when two boys climbed up on the roof of a building on the square and raised two flags, the red-and-white Polish flag and the blue-and-white banner of the ŻZW. These flags remained there, highly visible from the Warsaw streets, for four days. After the war, Stroop recalled:

"The matter of the flags was of great political and moral importance. It reminded hundreds of thousands of the Polish cause, it excited them and unified the population of the General Government, but especially Jews and Poles. Flags and national colours are a means of combat exactly like a rapid-fire weapon, like thousands of such weapons. We all knew that – Heinrich Himmler, Krüger, and Hahn. The Reichsfuehrer [Himmler] bellowed into the phone: 'Stroop, you must at all costs bring down those two flags!'"


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

...........

Israel destroyed a power plant, a radio station and the HQ of the Hamas government....all claimed to be symbolic hits....symbols are important in the propaganda war.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
107. Apartheid South Africa is a better comparison than the Nazis
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:40 PM
Jul 2014

This post isn't directed at you, OP, but at the Nazi references in the thread. I feel comparisons to the Nazis are off the mark, and does a lazy injustice to the reality of this conflict.

It's much closer to apartheid South Africa. The West Bank and Gaza are clearly bantustans. The only difference is that Israel hasn't stripped Arabs of their citizenship, probably because it would cause sanctions from much of the western world. But they would consider it if Arabs became too numerous, hence the oft-repeated saying "Israel has to decide whether it wants to be a democracy or Jewish". That dilemma is not necessarily rhetorical. The Arab citizens are segregated and subject to race-specific laws.

Some of Israel's supporters live in a blind fantasy world where they think this can continue forever. Demographically, it can't. Secular Jews have held Israel together since its inception, now by 2019 most Israeli children in schools are either Arabs or haredi. Unless something is done soon while the secular Jews are still in control (although that's slipping fast), Israel is doomed to an outcome like South Africa: to be changed on the terms of others rather than on their own terms.

Report: More than half of new pupils will be haredi or Arab by 2019

According to the Central Bureau for Statistics, only 40 percent of students in 2019 will be enrolled in secular state schools • Data suggests growth rate for Jewish schools is higher than for Arab schools.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=11219

Israel will be politically paralyzed between extreme factions when this demographic grows up. The haredi in power will be unable to maneuver the international political waters due to being handcuffed by their extreme beliefs. The Arabs will cause a political paralysis. The time for a negotiated solution was 20 years ago, now it may be impossible. The solution will ultimately be imposed on them with things like sanctions.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
118. With respect, both contrasts are applicable, the walled city of Gaza is a better contrast, but your
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:00 PM
Jul 2014

contrast is also good, in a different way, more like the million Arabs living in Israel are treated.

westerebus

(2,976 posts)
132. Not to go off topic, but..
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:09 PM
Jul 2014

Israel was the primary supplier of arms to the apartheid government of South Africa during the UN arms embargo way back then. Small world.

mulsh

(2,959 posts)
115. The last thing Israel wants is a "final solution". This group currently in power want a never
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:53 PM
Jul 2014

ending process, If they wanted a "final solution" they'd employ the massive amount of arms and technology we continue to supply them and blow the large scale concentration camp that is Gaza into dust. They get to maintain power and popularity by selectively acting aggressive every few years, killing a thousand or so people and blaming Hamas.

Unfortunately the people in power in Israel appear to be fairly popular both there and with our government. Unlike the ones the Palestinians elected, you know Hamas the USA and Western Power have little objection to Likudnics.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
122. Hamas was democratically elected, as was the Israeli government, but only one is legit.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:23 PM
Jul 2014

And then they have the gall to trumpet how democratic respecting Israel is...the hypocrisy is
Monumental.....and Egypt...do not get me started.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
134. They won't blow Gaza to dust because they want the land.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:16 PM
Jul 2014

Thieves and murderers don't destroy what they covet.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
123. you know it, I know it, analysts know it, Israel itself knows it: Bibithink is designed only for
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:23 PM
Jul 2014

US consumption, to keep the impunity and dollars flowing, and keep the CIA buying Israeli experts and intel (like Ríos Montt did, in fact, though there the highland Maya were being reconcentrated without settlement--but it was based on how to treat Arab Israelis)

Response to Fred Sanders (Original post)

EX500rider

(9,719 posts)
133. Some "Ghetto"..
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:12 PM
Jul 2014

Gaza:
141 sq. miles
pop. 1.8 million (annual population growth rate of 2.91%)
GDP: $1.35 billion

Warsaw Ghetto:
1.3 sq. miles
Average food rations in 1941 were limited to 184 calories
pop. 400,000
-250,000 sent to Treblinka death camp, rest died of starvation or in the resistance.

Response to EX500rider (Reply #133)

Response to EX500rider (Reply #139)

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
164. No...
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 05:38 PM
Jul 2014

"A ghetto is a part of a city in which members of a minority group live, especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure.[1] The term was originally used in Venice to describe the part of the city to which Jews were restricted and segregated."

[1] ghetto - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary.

Gaza is a ghetto.

We have them right here in the USA. I live in one.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
183. So only Warsaw defines ghetto in your opinion...
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:22 PM
Jul 2014

even though the word was coined to describe another place.

It leads me to believe that you have no understanding of the world outside your tiny bubble.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
209. You keep up
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:05 PM
Jul 2014

Size is not the issue. The effect is what matters.

The destruction of "undesirables" and the usurpation of their property.

It is not that hard to understand. I'm sorry that you seem so hell bent on denying it.

EX500rider

(9,719 posts)
236. "The effect is what matters."
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:35 PM
Jul 2014

Yes and in Warsaw ALL 400,000 inhabitants ended up dead.
Gaza has a large population growth.
One thing is not like the other.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
249. Israel is not done yet, are they?
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:55 PM
Jul 2014

Let's keep providing them towards that goal. I'm sure with enough money and weapons that will be accomplished in due time.

With all the propaganda being spewed, one would get the idea that the Palestinians were responsible for the Holocaust, rather than the ones who's land was usurped to form Israel.

Whatever the case may be, I have lost interest in simple minded thinking. Have the last word, I will not be replying.

 

AnalystInParadise

(1,832 posts)
143. War is not between equal sides
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:36 PM
Jul 2014

You want to be able to decimate your opponent in war.

Or have you forgotten this little piece of poetry.

"Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not."

Ideally one side wants to be able to kill the other side at will without sustaining any casualties itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Omdurman

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
182. It is, but only on the sand table
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:21 PM
Jul 2014

Unfortunately people confuse the sand table and simulation for real life.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
155. Something for the deniers/apologists
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 03:59 PM
Jul 2014
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.608121

"The Hamas leadership must be taken out," says coalition chairman Yariv Levin, considered one of the more influential MKs in the Likud party. "We can't leave the Gaza Strip as it is today. We need to create a wide swath of land beyond the border, that will be a no-man's-land that the Palestinians will not be allowed to enter. The area needs to be flattened, in the sense that there will be no houses that tunnels can be dug under."

Concentrating the population into smaller and smaller cordoned off plots of land? Hmmm...

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
157. You mean like this, although it is now the size of Las Vegas, some say, so can not be a ghetto....
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 04:26 PM
Jul 2014


Israel has created a multitude of ghettos for the different levels of servitude to them.
 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
303. In that map, Gaza is part of Egypt and the West Bank is part of Jordan
Tue Aug 5, 2014, 05:44 PM
Aug 2014

Where do they figure in the "loss of Palestinian land" narrative? They don't make an appearance in Gaza or the West Bank on any of the four maps, even though Egypt and Jordan were occupying Gaza and the West Bank throughout the 1950's - as indicated in the map you provided.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
304. Israel maintains effective control of Gaza and the West Bank
Tue Aug 5, 2014, 05:49 PM
Aug 2014

and thus remains the occupying power as defined by Article 47 of the Hague Regulations.

Regardless of what happened in 1957, Israel is occupying Palestinian land.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
305. Not disputing that
Tue Aug 5, 2014, 05:57 PM
Aug 2014

Just disputing the sequence of maps as being an accurate representation of the history. I think they are manipulative propaganda pieces. I think it is enough to say that the occupation is wrong and that Israel should withdraw to the 1967 lines.

felix_numinous

(5,198 posts)
159. Rabid right wing sociopathy is a universal behavior
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 04:46 PM
Jul 2014

whether Nazi, Taliban, fundamentalist Christian, Jew, Hindu, Muslim--any ideology can be twisted by them. Sociopaths want power, land, domination, inequality, punishment--because they are broken inside, they see a fragmented world.

Sociopaths are cut off from their higher creative minds and their hearts because they are in a state like chronic fight or flight. When in this state blood is shunted toward the limbs for survival, and into the reptilian most primitive part of the brain.

So to overcome this social disease is to stay calm and unified WITHIN. When we are able to calm ourselves and bring blood and oxygen to our higher brains and to our hearts we unify ourselves to our full potentials. Any martial artist knows the importance of staying calm.

Sociopathy is a state if fear that is contagious--which is important---to recognize when we ourselves are triggered into this state--and RESIST fighting amongst ourselves, resist becoming part of the disease.

Because if we are to create a future where sociopaths can be driven from all the seats of power we need every able body to be in their full potential, with a fully activated calm higher brain function to do so. Because once we get out of our primitive lower brains and open our hearts, we can get a lot done. Working together doesn't mean we have to like or approve of each other--but we can find common ground.

Gaza has potential to create a new generation of terrorists--and Netanyahu knows this--he is only capable of creating more Hell. His right wing party, like all right wing hyper violent parties cannot be allowed to destroy any more life. This is a human disease.

Peace ~~~FN

emsimon33

(3,128 posts)
160. Great opening statement
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 05:17 PM
Jul 2014

"Israelis want a 'final solution,' having apparently forgotten their own history. "

cornball 24

(1,447 posts)
163. Please forgive my naivete as a newcomer to DU
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 05:36 PM
Jul 2014

but I fail to understand why a person is subjected to so much scrutiny (Fred Sanders) as in trial by jury, when that person is compelled to express his disgust with the situation in Gaza, the murder of innocent civilians by the region's super power, Israel. It seems to me that posters veer off this topic that should be of vital importance to the civilized world. Instead, I read so much back and forth hyperbole when the real issue seems to be negated. I am sure I will be chastised for my post. Frankly, my dear, I dont give a damn! My concern is that my country is aiding and abetting the killing of innocent civilians by supplying arms to Israel. This sickens me!

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
187. I think you got that right
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:29 PM
Jul 2014

Fred dares to challenge the status quo, so must be silenced.

Welcome to DU. We need more voices of reason here.

William769

(54,356 posts)
171. There is no comparison whatsoever and to say there is, is very disingenuous.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:00 PM
Jul 2014

Either you are not well versed in the history of the Warsaw ghetto or you just ... What the hell, why even try, you are going to carry on with that meme no matter what.

steve2470

(37,434 posts)
172. The Nazis were in a league all of their own, only Rwanda and Pol Pot come close
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 06:04 PM
Jul 2014

I can't believe anyone even entertains the comparison. Yes, the situation with Gaza is BAD but Nazis ? Jesus Christ.