This is what a police state looks like folks

[Kelvin Mace]

I wish I had the time to run down every person over the last ten years who told me I was being an "alarmist" for saying that the U.S. was a de facto police state so I could show them this picture.

More here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/13/ferguson-photos_n_5674573.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics

[brooklynite]

1. Want to know why it's NOT a Police State?

Because you can post a message online saying it's a Police State.

[djean111]

2. For now. It's not like everything isn't being collected for future use. n/t

[RKP5637]

101. Someone someplace is recording every F'en thing said on DU ... for future use IMO. And I'm NOT

referring to the admins, but rather the open Internet.

[Kelvin Mace]

3. There are varying degrees of

a police state. And while we may still be allowed to make statements such as this, we are at the level of police state that this opinion has been captured, noted and filed for future use, courtesy of the massive surveillance system currently operating with total impunity in the U.S.

[stevenleser]

7. We don't need the US government for that. The private wayback system also does that for websites. nt

[Kelvin Mace]

11. The Wayback Machine

is not comprehensive, and may be thwarted by the inclusion of a single in a file called robot.txt, if memory serves.

[sabrina 1]

66. How so? We choose to write online and know it is going to be public and saved. Are you trying to

compare voluntary acts by the people to publish their views, to a vast, Government surveillance network that is spying on their non public communications? I don't care what the wayback machine has regarding all of my comments, I knew they were public.

But I sure as hell do not want some Government Peeping Toms or their Private Contractors, listening in like the perverts they are to MY phone conversations or reading my personal mail.

If they were caught looking in your window, they would be arrested. They ARE doing that, as we now know. To even try to compare people's public statements to the snooping and sick spying on private individuals, if that is what your are doing, is just simply ridiculous.

I wonder what kind of sick perverts apply for these jobs. Women especially are at risk from having these strangers KNOWING their personal information. What a sick society this is. And to think it actually has some defenders.

[Louisiana1976]

79. I'd bet potential stalkers apply for surveillance jobs.

[RKP5637]

102. Bottom line, as you said, I agree ... "What a sick society this is!" It has

degraded vastly since I was a kid. I feel more like I live in a jail anymore than a country. The noose tightens more and more each day around well meaning citizens ... and they don't even know it ...

[Chimeradog]

147. i agree

with this 200%.

and surveillance drones now can be purchased, there's not many laws protecting citizens from it either...The potential for abuse and outright predatory spying by anyone who buys a small drone (they cost 1,000.00 and can be bought by anyone at present)

Yes, this society is NOT what my Dad fought in the war for.

Money and greed trump all personal liberties now.

I don't even recognize this country anymore when I turn news on.

[Enthusiast]

167. +1

[Orsino]

8. And yet, as the OP states, this is what a police state looks like. n/t

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

9. Pft.

Like they care? The reality on the ground is that police departments the country over are becoming ever more militarized, carrying ever-heavier armour and weaponry. Wandering around more often in gear that hides their identities. And gunning down unarmed people more often, breaking up peaceful protests with violence, using military tactics in attempting to arrest people for minor amounts of marijuana.

Heck, even legalization isn't about people wanting 'recreational use'. It's about people wanting to avoid having SWAT teams destroy their homes and murder their pets.

So no, the folks enacting the police state don't give a flying f... if you can post online about what they're doing, as long as they can keep doing it.

[Kelvin Mace]

13. In much the same way the Police

don't really care about the seas of guns in circulation.

The 2nd Amendment is honored because despite all the guns, it has in no way impeded the evisceration of the remainder of the Bill of Rights (specifically the 1st, 4th-8th Amendment). In fact, the presence of the guns is a justification for the ever-escalating police violence.

[Crunchy Frog]

29. I often wonder if that's the real motivation of the NRA types.

[Octafish]

19. Not quite.

You can post online in order for the Police State to record what you know, who you know, what your politics are, etc. Perhaps not today, but eventually that can and will be used against you.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175795/

[easychoice]

85. You win

They can and will harm us anyway they deem necessary to retain control of us.We are slaves.

[Octafish]

89. Writing about the Third Reich, Hannah Arendt pegged our situation today.

Via Chris Hedges:

The goal of wholesale surveillance, as Arendt wrote in “The Origins of Totalitarianism,” is not, in the end, to discover crimes, “but to be on hand when the government decides to arrest a certain category of the population.” And because Americans’ emails, phone conversations, Web searches and geographical movements are recorded and stored in perpetuity in government databases, there will be more than enough “evidence” to seize us should the state deem it necessary. This information waits like a deadly virus inside government vaults to be turned against us. It does not matter how trivial or innocent that information is. In totalitarian states, justice, like truth, is irrelevant.

PS: This one I'm sorry to win, easychoice.

[easychoice]

92. I,too am sorry to be on the right side of reality...

No one will listen.The answer is always,that's horrible, the government wouldn't do that! Well that is what they say until the guns are aimed at them.Then the party is over.
thanks for the response,it means a lot to me...

[ReRe]

130. ^^^^^This^^^^^ n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

139. Plus you get to sow fear in the population

by letting them know they are being watched.

[woo me with science]

165. +1

[Ed Suspicious]

166. Thank you for this.

[RKP5637]

104. Exactly! n/t

[Cleita]

111. ...

[woo me with science]

151. Thank you. nt

[ReRe]

27. Guess you missed the scoop about the NSA...

... snooping on us. OK, so how would you describe the OP picture? Knowing of course that this was taken in the St Louis environs in the last couple days after the shooting of Mike Brown. Explain the picture. Thanks.

[historylovr]

37. They just wanted to give him some milk.

Denial makes people feel safer, I think. Or at least better about what's going on.

[ReRe]

39. Here's some more news ...

... just heard that there's a "no-fly" zone above the town; only day protests allowed now, no night protests; kicking the media out...

I think it's about time somebody calls the National Guard out before more people get killed. This could be a spark that lights a fire across this country, and I don't mean like the forest fires out in the west/southwest. The governor, I guess, is the person that needs to step in and get this situation under control, no?

[historylovr]

44. Yes.

Very worrying what's going on there, especially with this news blackout now. One would hope the governor steps in, yes, and quick.

[Louisiana1976]

80. +1 million

[RKP5637]

105. Yes, agree, the adults need to step in and stop the out of control police behavior. n/t

[ReRe]

131. They tried to ban the media...

... but they failed miserably. One thing you don't do is announce a no-fly zone and that the media is banned before a protest. As it turned out, media swamped Ferguson last night and it will be all over the news later this a.m...probably fresh relief news crews on there way right now as I speak, setting up for morning news shows.

[Kelvin Mace]

62. Seems to me at this point that the entire police department

should be relived of duty and replaced with state police under FBI supervision. Not that I trust either of those two groups, but at least if people start to think they could lose their job...

[markpkessinger]

75. The official reason . . .

. . . (see http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/12/3470567/why-theres-a-no-fly-zone-over-ferguson-missouri/ ) is "TO PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITIES," the logic being that there were too any helicopters operating in the area for it to be safe to do so.

TRANSLATION: TO MAKE THE ENVIRONMENT SAFE FOR POLICE BRUTALITY.

Just my opinion, of course.

[ReRe]

129. Thanks for that link, markpkessinger! n/t

[glinda]

116. And who gave the order for "A no-fly zone". Seems that has to come from higher up?

[ReRe]

128. St Louis Police Dept...

... asked the FAA for it. See reply #75 this thread for link to more info.

Latest news from CNN overnight (1:20am EST): no school tomorrow for local schools, until Mon; Governor on the way to Ferguson finally gets off the pot); 18 arrests; people still at police station protesting and trying to get friends/family out of jail; tear gas canister exploded within inches of AJA media crew. Media treated like they are elsewhere in the world in a war zone.

[nxylas]

38. As long as people are gullible enough to believe that...

...then the state has more to gain by allowing such posts than by criminalizing them. It's the difference between a Huxleyan and an Orwellian dystopia.

[Nay]

55. You beat me to it -- I was going to comment on the Huxley/Orwell difference,

too. The state has more to gain by just letting all us useless eaters bloviate on the internet. We can feel like we're 'doing something' when we are actually just talking to ourselves -- they don't give a flying shit what we think or how we feel, because they have us by the groin hairs anyway.

[nxylas]

59. There's a myth that police states can't tolerate the slightest dissent

In reality, they don't care about complaints that pose no real threat to their power. I recently read a review of a book about humor in totalitarian regimes, from Nazi Germany to modern North Korea. The author found that toothless Letterman/Leno-style jokes about dictators were not only tolerated, but positively encouraged, as a lightning rod for real dissent.

[Louisiana1976]

81. Very interesting.

[cui bono]

96. Interesting. What book was that? n/t

[nxylas]

133. I wish I could remember the name of it

The review was in the Times (London), and I happened to be reading it when I was visiting my parents. I thought it seemed interesting, but didn't make a note of the title or author, and I now wish I had.

[Eleanors38]

112. Standard stuff. Even totalitarian states can't and won't

act on every person or event critical of the state; it is neither competent nor powerful enough to cherry-pick everything, and its apparatchik is often corrupted by those who want to make a problem go away. The state works to neutralize true threats because even its own resources and legitimacy are limited.

When/if the deal goes down, and civil order goes feral, local LEO will show itself supremely impotent against local disruption, witness the 60s when the various Guards were called in as advocated in some of these threads. The results there ranged from chaotic shootings to brutal suppression.

"...there's always mother" -- Lori Anderson

[Kelvin Mace]

140. Also, there is an advantage to being inconsistent

on attacking critics and dissenters. An oppressor that always cracks down is predictable and can be countered. A wildly unpredictable enforcement of police power creates a pervasive atmosphere of terror. This is the tactic favored by the Kims in North Korea for decades.

[Eleanors38]

143. Arbitrary actions by design.

[deutsey]

137. Yes, it's only when enough people begin to turn off the computers and TVs

and mobilize together in the streets that those in power feel threatened.

[malaise]

149. Precisely n/t

[Jackpine Radical]

40. Do you know why GI's are allowed to gripe about the Army?

Because it don't mean jack shit.

[PatrynXX]

43. zzzzz

meanwhile I still remember the horror coming out of what was twitter's beginnings from the Twin Cities police state. and know more that this started happening in 2004... right now whats happening in MO is extremely tame compared to lets beat up the paramedics crap in the twin cities 2008

[H2O Man]

47. Respectfully disagree.

The photo in the OP is not of a person sitting in the comfort of their living room or den, posting on-line about outside conditions. It's of a person outside the comfort of their home, yet still in their own community.

In other words, if the OP stated that it's raining outdoors, and I say, "Can't be -- I'm happy and dry here in my living room," it is still raining out.

[CrispyQ]

49. While the NSA siphons ever letter we type.

I feel so free.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

57. So, what do you call what is happening? nt

[Jack Rabbit]

58. Dissenting

I think it is perfectly possible for a police state to allow some, even most, citizens to make the observation that it is a police state. One may even make the observation while not condemning the state, e.g., "Thank God this is a police state; the police should have free reign to do what is necessary to protect law-abiding citizens from criminal elements."

The sticking point is that "free reign to do what is necessary" clause. In a real police state, "what is necessary" is interpreted in a way to mean "excessive." What is excessive? In the specific case at hand, it is when the police -- or a neighborhood watchman -- treat any young black man as a criminal suspect. It should have been a wake up call that some thirty years ago when patrolman stopped a young black male driving a car only to find out the "suspect" was television star LaVar Burton. That incident only raised some nervous laughter -- it was clear that Mr. Burton was stopped only because he fit an overly broad profile of a criminal and, beyond the inconvenience of having to explain to an officer that he was only his own business, didn't suffer any harm -- but there was still something wrong with that picture. We knew that this happened all the time, but the only reason we heard about this instance is that the young man randomly stopped was a Hollywood celebrity.

I don't believe the patrolman who stopped LaVar Burton had any specific crime that he was investigating, but in the time that it happened to now I may have forgotten a detail or two. In much less time, I can't recall any specific crime for which Trayvon Martin was suspected when he was killed by a neighborhood watchman or last week when Michael Brown was killed by a uniformed police officer. Messrs. Burton, Martin and Brown were not suspected of any crime; they were suspected because they were simply being.

Now consider this: is there any one here who thinks that officer who killed Michael Brown won't walk, assuming that he is even brought to trial? More than that, is there any one here is isn't expecting a barrage from the right wing claiming that Michael Brown was a thug who got what he deserved? Some of us might like to think that the Koch brothers or other right wing oligarchs are manipulating that sentiment, and perhaps that is partly true. Scapegoating young blacks helps keeps the masses divided, making it less likely the masses will come together to oppose them. Let's not get to conspiratorial in our thinking. Much of the ugly right wing sentiment will be spontaneous. The Koch brothers were not around when the KKK was founded.

The elements at work here are scapegoating, oligarchs who finds that scapegoating useful to maintaining their own power and police officers who are instructed to believe that a whole class of individuals are thugs and should be treated as such. The police officers come from the same general population as George Zimmerman and his defenders. Of course, so do you and I, my fellow DUers. Don't get too proud. If one's survival defended on a career and one's career depended on doing as one is told and one is told to treat any young black man as a criminal suspect, then even one who is not inclined to that kind of scapegoating will damned sure act as if he is.

That's how police states are made.

[Louisiana1976]

83. Exactly. The oligarchs are scapegoating blacks the way the Nazis scapegoated Europe's Jewish

people.

[RKP5637]

106. Yes, seems quite similar! n/t

[sabrina 1]

65. Wrong, that is in no way proof of anything. What tells us we live in a police state is when

the police look like a Military Goon Squad from some third world dictatorship. When they shoot at and sometimes kill protesters who are unarmed.

When they target certain sections of the population, spy on them, beat them up, throw them in jail for simply having opinions.

We live in a Police State and it's only getting worse.

I imagine other places when they saw the signs thought the same thing, 'hey, well some of us can still say things, WOW, they give us PERMISSION to say a few things about them, so no, we don't live in a police state'. And then there they were, living in a full blown police state.

Killing civilians at will, rarely if ever held accountable, THAT is a police state. I don't need more than that, with their tanks and their militarized weapons. And their 'fusion centers' and their spy apparatus etc etc.

It's gone plenty far enough for my taste, thank you.

[Kelvin Mace]

72. Killing people is on the extreme end

and they have done precisely that. But, they have also covered the bases in between.

1st Amendment: Unless you worship a state-approved religion you may be investigated, arrested and detained without trial. Freedom of the press? Reporters have been arrested and assaulted. The corporate media pretty much is an organ of the state. The right to peaceably assemble and petition government for redress of grievances? Ask the Occupy folk how that worked out. Freedom of expression? Government is very quick to harass anyone saying things it doesn't approve of. Arrest and detention (and possible execution during arrest and detention) are possible.

4th Amendment: Warrants are no longer required, just "security letters", and many times not even that.

5th Amendment: You may be forced to incriminate yourself under torture. You may be deprived of life or liberty by fiat.

6th Amendment: Guantanamo is filled with people denied a "speedy trial" and the government may present secret witnesses and/or evidence which you are not allowed to examine. You may be detained and tortured without charge or access to counsel.

7th Amendment: If you are declared an "enemy combatant" by fiat, you have no right to a jury trial

8th Amendment: You may be imprisoned and/or tortured and/or murdered by fiat, and this will not be considered "cruel or unusual punishment".

Oh, and then there's this right, found in the actual unamended text of the Constitution:

"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."

We have not been invaded nor is the country in a state of rebellion, thus this right should still be in play. However, the Patriot Act apparently outranks the Constitution.

So, I think we have a VERY compelling case that we are a "police state" by any reasonable definition of the term, yet we still have people out there who want to argue the point.

Your guess is as good as mine as to why.

[sabrina 1]

76. I believe now that the Patriot Act was intended to replace the Constitution.

There was a time when the Left at least was opposed to all this stuff, but for some inconceivable reason now, we have people on the Left who defend it.

We are indeed a police state, and anyone who denies it is either willfully blind or complicit.

[Louisiana1976]

84. Exactly.

[glinda]

118. double exactly

[woo me with science]

161. Editing...Responded wrong place.

I think you're exactly right, and I wish Kevin's post and your response could be an OP together.

[woo me with science]

162. This post, and Sabrina's response below

should be an OP together IMO.

[Rockyj]

67. We are slowly allowing our rights to be taking away...

we think we are free but we're not as the NSA is busy collecting your meta data.


14 warning signs of fascism:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disregard for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forgo civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


http://thewarmongerreport.blogspot.com/2012/03/14-signs-of-fascism-us-gets-perfect.html

[Louisiana1976]

86. Most of those describe the US to a tee.

[Enthusiast]

135. We are there.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

82. Yeah, but I've seen pictures of Gaza in rubble, and I've seen your support of that action.

You're most assuredly not the go-to person for what does and does not constitute a police state.

[HooptieWagon]

87. Micheal Brown can't. nt

[whereisjustice]

90. Not true. A true police state couldn't care less if you called it a police state.

In China/Russia/etc no one cares.

However, organize a mass citywide protest in America (or China), then you learn we are a true police state. Exercise your rights against search and seizure and you learn we are a police state. The highest per capita prison population in the world says we are a police state.

500 deaths a year by cops, 40,000 swat team assaults per year and police budgets bloated with military weapons.

More Americans per year are killed by cops than troops per year by Afghan or Iraq terrorists.

We have a militarized border and para-military local police, we spy on the press, we spy on all citizens.

Just because you aren't tripping over dead bodies on your way to work, doesn't mean we are not a police state.

We are, in fact, living in a police state. It might be a kinder gentler police state, but it is still a police state.

Besides those facts, do you really think these weapons are being developed to fight anything other than a class war in the United States?

http://www.cracked.com/article_16710_6-non-lethal-weapons-thatll-make-you-wish-you-were-dead.html

[myrna minx]

108. ...Said a person of privilege. One who frequently brags online about one's wealth and access

to the top of the political echelon such as luncheons with Harry Reid, Al Franken, Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton perchance isn't one to brush with the great unwashed of Ferguson Mo and the Police State therein.

[brooklynite]

114. ...and who actually grew up in a Police State...

...with military checkpoints on the road, press censorship, suspension of civil rights, etc.

[rhett o rick]

115. Dang, once again you are going to make us guess your point. My guess is that you are saying

that cops dressed in military gear shooting some poor slob 120 times because he wouldn't stop his car, isn't really anything to worry about. Well, I would say to you that apparently you've found out that rationalization is the key to happiness. Carry on.

[MurrayDelph]

127. We can post

but we're not in Ferguson.

[awoke_in_2003]

132. You can still do that...

because they know that the bulk of Americans will come up with a statement like you just made.

[billhicks76]

134. Wrong

You can do that in police states genius. And these comments are monitored.

[Cal Carpenter]

142. Hmm, I doubt the people in Ferguson can hear you

They are too busy facing down militarized cops and avoiding tear gas and rubber bullets.

Maybe you'll just have to post about your freedom more loudly.

[oldandhappy]

4. Having heavily militarized police is a step towards a police state in my mind.

The violence of the recent responses by police is scary to me. I am glad I can say so, smile. And we have moved further along a continuum towards more control.

[L0oniX]

5. "Fuck the police" on the mail box ...perfect.

[PatrynXX]

45. yeah

course when Ice T said it in Copkiller he meant this sort of cop. it was a cop. he kills people. copkiller. So the song Copkiller probably should be blasted at the killers home

[L0oniX]

78. I have that CD.

[Sissyk]

6. No, the U.S. is NOT a police state. Far from it.

What we are is a "shoot first, ask questions later of young black men" state.

[Kelvin Mace]

10. Not just black people are being attacked

See "Occupy" movement.

Also, the police have murdered a number of elderly Americans for the crime of being non compus mentis.

Though certainly your odds of dying are directly proportional to your skin hue.

[glinda]

119. Training at Military Bases for "Crowd Control" is not race exclusive.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

36. The two are not mutually exclusive. n/t

[MrMickeysMom]

107. It would seem that way, wouldn't it?

Pockets of professionalism exist… but a STANDARD, that is NOT.

I'd characterize it as PS, and un-ending racism in America.

[Bandit]

12. Why would any police need camo fatigues?

Are they on jungle patrol? What ever happened to "the boys in blue"?

[Kelvin Mace]

14. Police departments employ too many bullies

with badges. Now they like to play soldier a well.

[liam_laddie]

15. Kelvin, "Bullies" not quite accurate

I propose "psychpaths" to describe such police. No conscience, no moral sense; simply animals.

[zeemike]

18. Well most of them came from the military.

That has been the career path for them and they bring it with them to the job.
The ugly truth is that those attracted to law enforcement are those the love the feeling of power they have over people...and being trained in the military to be killers they bring that with them too.

In the past those kind of people would be weeded out of police departments, but now they seem to be the ones in charge.

[ReRe]

20. That's right...

... it's like they give them a psych test and if they flunk it, they're in!

[jwirr]

26. My young grandson wants to be a policeman and his mother and I are trying to convince him that

the military is not the way. I quoted a young man who came home to visit from Iraq on his second time there. He said, "I wanted to be a policeman (like his dad) but I did not count on two being in a war this long."

[theHandpuppet]

70. It's ridiculous

Camos are supposed to blend in with the surroundings. Look how well it works in an urban setting.

[glinda]

120. Because they are trained at Military Bases in Military tactics. They are Militarized.

[Zorra]

16. Yes, that is what a police state looks like. nt

[Walk away]

17. I am frankly more worried about people who AREN'T police.....

who are armed to the teeth and want to walk around our children while the are playing in parks or eating in restaurants. This photo is awful but what do you expect when there are 3,000,000 guns out there? The second amendment has armed thousands of angry and unstable people and this is the kind of reaction it breeds in law enforcement.

[Kelvin Mace]

22. Yes, but at least there is a CHANCE

of them being prosecuted if they kill someone. The police pretty much kill at will and RARELY even charged with a crime, never mind convicted.

[bullsnarfle]

28. Charged with a crime?

Hell, apparently they aren't even going to NAME the cop who did the shooting, much less charge him.

All the news sources I have been checking say that the Ferguson P.D. is refusing to name the cop, release autopsy results, or any other damn thing. Anybody but me smell a 'whitewash' in the works?

There's your "police state" right there.

[Kelvin Mace]

34. Well, I believe that was my point

that If you are NOT a cop, there is a chance you will be charged with a crime and convicted (but can still get off thanks to legalized murder permitted under SYG laws). If you are a cop, it is rare that you would even be charged, never mind convicted. So far, the FPD is upholding my opinion.

[bullsnarfle]

46. Yes, I was agreeing with you.

Just wanted to point out that the police were doubling down on that by refusing to even say who the cop is.

[CrispyQ]

53. Often times they get suspension with pay.

With pay??? I know the suspension is on their personnel record, but crap, it's almost like extra vacation days. Kill a citizen, get some time off with pay & be back at your post when the hubbub dies down.

[Walk away]

69. I doesn't change the fact that the unfettered gun insanity in this country...

Is the reason this shit even exists. You can't arm 3 million potential shooters and not expect the police to become just as paranoid and trigger happy as the civilians they are supposed to be protecting.
If you want civilization then you have to start acting like civilized countries and take the guns away from everyone...police and the public. Until then, expect more of the same.

[PeoViejo]

24. More than 300 Million guns.

Odds are, there are always a few nuts to use them.

[TheKentuckian]

25. Simple bullshit, the 2nd amendment didn't just pass. Lots of people have ever had guns

It is 99.99% failed drug war and fake war on terror.

You need to stop lying to yourself based on personal fear of a totem and deal with the facts, the danger of being a cop is wildly overstated and would be close to nil minus the drug war without which I would estimate the biggest danger to a cop would be accidentally getting hit on the side of the road at a traffic violation stop.

Violent crime is way down, without the failed drug war it would be down by leaps and bounds as the gangs decline without the profit motive.

Stop making excuses for these fucking roided out bullies and psychopaths and their quasi military build up, your theory is flat false.

The only time I've had a gun pointed at me is by cops, not doing a damn thing rather than "non cops".

[Zorra]

33. For dark skinned people, and/or people who don't conform to the lily white conservative ideal

of how "a normal person" is supposed to look, any interaction with a cop has the potential to be life threatening or freedom threatening.

I personally have the T-shirts to prove it.

[markpkessinger]

50. If you cannot see the complex, inter-relationshiop between the two, you are blind n/6

[Eleanors38]

113. Actually, well over 300,000,000. Held by approx 90,000,000 citizens.

[libodem]

21. Looks like a military force to me

We are a Plutocracy not a Democracy. This is not power to the people. It's power for the 1%.

We are fucked.

[jwirr]

23. Armed to the teeth to confront one girl who is not resisting at all. Sad. They should be ashamed of

their cowardice.

[RKP5637]

109. They should, but they really don't give a F. It's sport for these cops, I really think they

are having a fun time doing this ... it's the type of individuals the job attracts.

[glinda]

121. Like when they shoot people's dogs.

[RKP5637]

124. Yep, how far we have sunk. I lost respect for cops long ago, so many are really asses in

uniform.

[glinda]

126. try NRA members in uniform.

[Initech]

30. Police, military, what's the difference?

[noiretextatique]

31. fucking asshole cowards

Really?! You need all those people and weapons to deal with one unarmed black guy?! I guess we are magical.

[Kelvin Mace]

35. That has kind of been my view

What kind of sad excuse for a "man" are you when you can't handle 90+ year old citizen who is delusional, even if they are armed with a knife? In situations like this, call a hippie, at least they aren't in a hurry and can probably talk through the situation without resorting to violence.

[noiretextatique]

94. they formenting violence

To justify their existence. Who created all the problems at the Occupy protests? 99% of them were ubercops in disguise

[santamargarita]

32. That fucking George Bush started this shit of making SEAL teams

out of Cops. And we're al-Qaeda. They were intended to be Bush's SS.

[EX500rider]

61. No, SWAT Teams go back to the reaction to the Texas Clock Tower sniper in 1966.

aka Charles Joseph Whitman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Though the SWAT Team established by the Philadelphia Police Department actually goes back to 1964.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWAT

After the 1974 Symbionese Liberation Army shootout in L.A., everybody jumped on the bandwagon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbionese_Liberation_Army

[santamargarita]

77. I'm not talking about swat teams, but thanks for the history lesson.

Before that fucking Bush stole office, police Departments didn't have tanks or Blackhawk helicopters. Both of which I've seen articles about. Of course he used 911 as an excuse.
In general, there is a police state, just like the post says.

[bigwillq]

41. I love the mailbox

[toby jo]

42. I was on my way to a criminal justice degree at the University of Akron

- wanted to work in the park services - and one day some of the guys opened up about how much 'fun' they had working at an Indian Reservation. I recall comments like ' man, the power', 'those fucking drunks', 'it was fun, they all just ran'. It wasn't even the comments but their attitude, like a bunch of pigs rutting away on power over people. Still remember how disgusted I was. No doubt they're cops somewhere.

I got out, went back to pre-med, bought a farm.

[OnyxCollie]

48. I went to the University of Akron for poli-sci (which has some overlap with criminal justice.)

You were wise to get out; that department sucks.

[JEB]

51. Armed thugs. With get out of jail free cards.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

52. Watch the Vice documentary on Camden New Jersey.

Police state.

[PoutrageFatigue]

54. That was an incredible piece....

...especially when the cop said he didn't think that what was going on was symptomatic of a police state, and when asked for his own definition of what he thought a police state was described, almost to a tee, what the Camden NJ Police Dept had done.

We are, indeed, fucked.

[Louisiana1976]

95. True. And welcome to DU.

[terdheadur]

56. what a tragedy. Young man died for nothing.

We have witnessed an increased militarization of every alphabet agency. We fall right in line too. We are guilty of trying to pick and choose our battles according to party lines. This isn't political but both sides are trying to make it that way to pull the cover over our eyes quickly. Bundy ranch same thing hurry up and make it political to take eyes off of the real problem. Say what you will but i for one am guilty of it and i think we should make it a point to not get in a pissing contest over issues like this with the wingnuts other wise we are no better.

[Strelnikov_]

60. Police state . . . or occupation?

One country for the wealthy, another for the rest of us.

[glinda]

122. We have a winner!

[Progressive dog]

63. Ferguson isn't a state.

[Kelvin Mace]

73. Seriously?

Tell me your are being facetious.

[Progressive dog]

74. I am being truthful

This is an aberration and while it happens far too often, it does not make a whole nation into a police state.
The actual nation "state" has nothing to do with what happened in Ferguson.

[glinda]

123. Ferguson is the test run.

[Progressive dog]

145. Of course it is, of course it is,

just remain calm.

[Kelvin Mace]

138. Apparently you haven't noticed

but this type of abuse is widespread in this country. At state and federal levels the 1st, and 4th-8th Amendments are null and void. The right of habeus corpus has been suspended in direct contravention to the EXPLICIT guarantee that it cannot be suspended by the Constitution.

The police routinely wear military uniforms and use military weapons up to and including APCs. What will convince you? Swastikas and German accents?

This is a police state.

[Progressive dog]

144. Apparently you have3n't noticed

that none of the amendments are null and void except in your imagination.
"Habeus corpus?" lol

[Kelvin Mace]

146. If they are ignored

then they are null and void. You are telling me you won't believe we are a police state until we pass a law saying we are a police state.

What you find amusing about the The Great Writ, I have no idea.

[Progressive dog]

148. Do you really not understand what I wrote?

North Korea is a police state, China is a police state, Syria is a police state.Iin fact most countries are closer to being a police state than the USA.

[Kelvin Mace]

150. The differance between us and, say North Korea

is a matter of degree.

We are yellow belt police state to North Korea's black belt.

But we are still a police state.

We torture people, and we made it legal. Our police departments murder and beat people on a weekly basis with ZERO accountability. Our government has ignored pretty much all laws against domestic spying or claimed legality under the same twisted logic that declares torture legal. Our president says he may assassinate people by fiat and it is legal.

We are daily violating 60% of the Bill of Rights and somehow you don't see that as a problem. I have laid out examples of how our rights have been violated in this thread and your response so far has been essentially "Nuh uh, have not." Thanks for the edifying debate.

[Progressive dog]

152. We are one of the few

nations with a written bill of rights. I don't see that as a problem, in fact I see it as a solution.
You keep making outrageous claims, supported by other outrageous claims. Did you just make up the 60% claim or can you support it with actual data?
In a country of 300 million people, anecdotal accounts of crimes do not prove a police state.

[Kelvin Mace]

153. Gave you a link with an detailed explanation of my rational

How many times must the government violate civil rights without penalty before we can assume that the rights no longer apply? I would think that once you have legalized torture, your admission into the Police State Fraternity is automatic.

A written Constitution is meaningless if the rights are not observed.

1st Amendment violation: The right of the people to peaceably assemble and petition government for redress of grievances has been violated over and over again, with Ferguson as the most recent example.

4th Amendment violation: U.S. Customs may seize and search your computer without a warrant.

4th Amendment violation: The police can force you to submit a DNA sample without a warrant.

1st Amendment violation: The government has made it much easier to declare any area, such as political conventions, government buildings, or practically any venue that might attract political/civil protest, as subject to special enforcement, lowering the threshold for arresting people. (The article talks about the bill as pending, but it was signed into law by Obama in 2012).

We lock up more people per capita than police states that I assume meet your definition of a police state.

USA - 707
Russia - 470
Iran - 284
China - 172
Cuba - 510
Burma - 113
Pakistan - 41
Syria - 60

North Korea is estimated between 600-800, so we may be in second place.

4th/5th Amendment violation: The government under the PATRIOT Act may issue "National Security Letters" which are not warrants to conduct searches, but are used as if they were warrants. The courts have ruled NSLs unconstitutional, but ordered people to comply with them anyway.

8th Amendment violation: Prisons are being "outsourced" to private corporations to run for profit and who routinely violate the most basic of human rights, like serving maggot-ridden food.

You may be arrested and imprisoned for non-criminal acts like failing to pay your rent.

5th/8th Amendment violation: You may be sent to prison for life for shoplifting or $10 worth of weed.

4th Amendment violation: You may be sexually assaulted by police as long as they call it a search. The police may search repeatedly even after it is proven beyond doubt that you possess no contraband. The search may include surgical procedures. (And yes, some of these cases result in law suits, but none have resulted in criminal prosecution).

These are crystal clear police state tactics in use in America. I could go on, but, I am not going to convince you no matter how many examples i give, so we are pretty much done.

[Progressive dog]

154. Half a dozen anecdotes do not prove anything

and neither does a handful of opinions. You don't seem to realize that people are not infallible or that people in law enforcement may not be honest. That comes nowhere near a police state.
At least one of your anecdotes doesn't even support your claims.The first sexual assault one in Texas didn't play out the way you and the original poster would like to believe. Somehow the indictment of the police was ignored. In other words, the law was enforced on the "police state" police.
There are lots of anecdotes out there and even more opinions, but forming opinions about a nation, based on a handful of anecdotes doesn't seem reasonable to me.

[Kelvin Mace]

155. There are far more than a what I cited

And I don't think I would change your mind no matter how many cases I used to prove my point.

Again, the government declared torture is legal in this country and I have yet to see a court ruled otherwise. But apparently such things are not a deal-breaker for you.

We are done.

[Progressive dog]

156. I don't doubt that, so what

does that mean. A few more anecdotes are exactly that, a few more anecdotes.
BTW The memo legalizing torture was revoked when a new man became president.
Unless you can rewrite reality, no, you will not change my mind.

[Kelvin Mace]

157. Torture was legalized

the practice can be brought back by the next guy, or the guy after him. No one was prosecuted.

[Progressive dog]

158. Lots of things could change for the worse

and they could also change for the better. None of us are going to become perfect. The idea is to limit the opportunities and motivations to do wrong. Revenge is not always the best way to do that.

[Kelvin Mace]

159. But I am sure that no matter how bad it gets

you will never admit that we are a police state. Crimes, especially war crimes, that go unpunished are sanctioned and will be repeated in the future with the past as "precedent".

[Progressive dog]

160. Of course I won't make a claim of the US being a police state

because we are not. We are not even very proficient at the war crimes business.
A legal precedent requires a court ruling, so there is no precedent that has meaning. As far as sanctioned, torture has not been sanctioned since early 2009.
Prosecution would accomplish exactly nothing worthwhile.

[Glassunion]

64. Oh for fuck sakes... How the fuck ARE the police supposed to react in this situation?

Someone defaced that USPS letterbox. See... Look it has some graffiti on it... That's a federal crime! You have to get all Rambo / Black Helicopter / "rescue" tank / forest camo (in an urban area) / machine gun'ed up for this kind of travesty. What kind of world do we live in where folks go around defacing "government" property.

Title 18, Section 1705 of the U.S. Code, a collection of federal laws, "Whoever willfully or maliciously injures, tears down or destroys any letter box or other receptacle intended or used for the receipt or delivery of mail on any mail route, or breaks open the same or willfully or maliciously injures, defaces or destroys any mail deposited therein, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both."

[Uncle Joe]

68. Precisely, it's disgusting what the U.S. has done to its police forces.

Thanks for the thread, Kelvin Mace.

[Generic Other]

71. One of my foreign relatives sent me an email today

with a pic of his daughter, so now all of everyone's raw data on this thread has officially been swept up by the NSA. And you didn't even get to see my cousin's little girl's picture.

That's close enough to a police state if you ask me.

Also, when you can't tell a cop from a soldier in a war zone...it's a police state. Cops wearing camo, footwear designed for Desert Storm, carrying combat assault weapons, flak jackets, stun grenades...invading and occupying the hood.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

88. What is it that you don't get about this picture??!!

They were just bringing the dude a couple of gallons of milk is all.

[sulphurdunn]

91. Who might gain from from a massive

military intervention to restore order in American cities?

[imthevicar]

93. Yet Many here

Would accuse folks like us of being tin foil hats. Then I wear it with honer.

[blkmusclmachine]

97. ,

,

[liberaltrucker]

98. Ice T was right

[sendero]

99. I get the distinct feeling..

... that the recent murders of innocent civilians by police and the carefully orchestrated lack of accountability is designed and created to send a message.

[RKP5637]

110. Yep, like they also did with OWS. I know it sounds like CT, but some of this could be

orchestrated at least on a local level.

[cantbeserious]

100. To Protect And Serve The Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks

eom

[Dawson Leery]

103. The police also overreacted to the Boston situation too.

There was no need to shut down entire towns. Police state indeed.

[Warpy]

117. Suburban morons think it's OK as long as they're black

or scruffy looking young kids who need to be taught a lesson.

That's the problem. Until it happens to their kids or in their neighborhoods, they won't think it's a problem.

Sadly for them, it likely will start happening to their kids and/or in their neighborhoods. The only question is how soon.

[glinda]

125. U R %400 correct.

[Enthusiast]

136. Kicked and recommended!

[woo me with science]

141. K&R

[woo me with science]

163. kick

[woo me with science]

164. kick