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pampango

(24,692 posts)
Wed Aug 20, 2014, 05:50 PM Aug 2014

Krugman: new study shows Americans think income is much more equal here than in Europe. The opposite

is true.

Inequality Delusions

Via the FT, a new study compares perceptions of inequality across advanced nations. The big takeaway here is that Americans are more likely than Europeans to believe that they live in a middle-class society, even though income is really much less equally distributed here than in Europe. I’ve truncated the table to show the comparison between the U.S. and France: the French think they live in a hierarchical pyramid when they are in reality mostly middle-class, Americans are the opposite.



As the paper says, other evidence also says that Americans vastly underestimate inequality in their own society – and when asked to choose an ideal wealth distribution, say that they like Sweden.

Why the difference? American exceptionalism when it comes to income distribution – our unique suspicion of and hostility to social insurance and anti-poverty programs – is, I and many others would argue, very much tied to our racial history. This does not, however, explain in any direct way why we should misperceive real inequality: people could oppose aid to Those People while understanding how rich the rich are. There may, however, be an indirect effect, because the racial divide empowers right-wing groups of all kinds, which in turn issue a lot of propaganda dismissing and minimizing inequality.

Interesting stuff.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/inequality-delusions/

At other times, Krugman has said that the US would have to adopt European fiscal, tax, regulatory, labor and social policies in order for us to achieve European levels of income equality. That seems a long way from happening.

It is interesting that Americans say they want a degree of income equality similar to what Sweden actually has, but we are not willing to adopt the taxation, labor and economic policies that Sweden has used to accomplish this.
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Krugman: new study shows Americans think income is much more equal here than in Europe. The opposite (Original Post) pampango Aug 2014 OP
I'm often astounded at how ignorant thucythucy Aug 2014 #1
There are idiots everywhere but we do seem to be overrun with them here. redqueen Aug 2014 #3
Yes. Thanks to a corporate owned media and the lack of curiousity mnhtnbb Aug 2014 #4
I'm never astounded anymore. It simply upsets and depresses me now. stillwaiting Aug 2014 #5
We are looking forward LittleGirl Aug 2014 #16
If the US could convert its hifiguy Aug 2014 #18
I've Discovered RobinA Aug 2014 #25
k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t Laelth Aug 2014 #2
Why are Americans so effing ignorant? Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #6
By choice. nt Mnemosyne Aug 2014 #7
We're so effing religious compared to other industrialized countries. nt valerief Aug 2014 #9
Yeah, I think religion is a huge part of the ignorance. Arugula Latte Aug 2014 #12
Most of the dumbest forms hifiguy Aug 2014 #20
because it is drilled into them from a very early age... CTyankee Aug 2014 #22
well, to be honest zipplewrath Aug 2014 #24
The only thing exceptional about America is its propaganda. nt valerief Aug 2014 #8
Of course they do, it is social engineering on a mass communications scale. Rex Aug 2014 #10
here is a possible answer DonCoquixote Aug 2014 #11
interesting take on this subject LittleGirl Aug 2014 #17
as a half Scotch-Irish, half German rogerashton Aug 2014 #26
I humbly ask you to read DonCoquixote Aug 2014 #27
I miss Joe B. hifiguy Aug 2014 #28
The majority of white Americans are of English/British ancestry, in fact Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #32
For certain areas, but not the Red state ones DonCoquixote Aug 2014 #33
Nope, for "red states" as well Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #34
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Aug 2014 #13
My guess is that America is Type C or B but is evolving toward a Type A society bklyncowgirl Aug 2014 #14
That's because the American 1% keep teaching that and telling that in their talking points. nt kelliekat44 Aug 2014 #15
Commercials work. All TV is a commercial for the interests of the wealthy Taitertots Aug 2014 #19
DURec leftstreet Aug 2014 #21
Nobody does propaganda anymore like we do.... Horse with no Name Aug 2014 #23
The American experiment is polynomial Aug 2014 #29
There are people who pay more for a lunch than what some make in a month.... Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2014 #30
One quick point about the Sweden thing caraher Aug 2014 #31
Too many americans want "the goodies" SoCalDem Aug 2014 #35

thucythucy

(8,038 posts)
1. I'm often astounded at how ignorant
Wed Aug 20, 2014, 06:28 PM
Aug 2014

so many Americans are about Europe, not to mention the rest of the world. But I've heard not unintelligent people say the most ridiculous things about Europe, and it's way worse on-line. People saying that Germany, for instance, is "a socialist hell hole" where no one has any rights (what? they think it's 1934?) or that millions are "starving" in France. And then there's the delusion that all Swedes are terminally depressed alcoholics, etc.

Granted, Europe has problems, some of them quite serious, but I always feel safer, healthier, happier when I'm in Scandinavia or western Europe. Not to mention, European rail makes Amtrak look downright pathetic. I tell American friends about European rail, or the German health care system, and they downright refuse to believe it. These are folks, of course, who never actually travel to the places they like to diss.

It's a shame, really. Sad, how the American middle class is getting screwed by its own delusions.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
3. There are idiots everywhere but we do seem to be overrun with them here.
Wed Aug 20, 2014, 06:31 PM
Aug 2014

To say it's depressing is putting it mildly.

mnhtnbb

(31,373 posts)
4. Yes. Thanks to a corporate owned media and the lack of curiousity
Wed Aug 20, 2014, 06:31 PM
Aug 2014

from Americans about other countries, we have an amazingly ignorant population.

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
5. I'm never astounded anymore. It simply upsets and depresses me now.
Wed Aug 20, 2014, 06:39 PM
Aug 2014

Many Americans NEED the U.S. to be #1 in any and everything in life. There is no room for any information that counters that need, and there is definitely no desire to look outside our borders at how other countries do things so that we can possibly improve our lives in the States. People that think and live like this drive me crazy.

LittleGirl

(8,279 posts)
16. We are looking forward
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 09:30 AM
Aug 2014

to returning to Europe. We should be there by xmas and living the socialist dream like we did a few years ago. We've had enough with America. Cheers.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
18. If the US could convert its
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 11:31 AM
Aug 2014

superabundance of ignorance and sheer stupidity into energy we would have enough for 100,000 years and warp drive in three weeks.

RobinA

(9,886 posts)
25. I've Discovered
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 01:09 PM
Aug 2014

the same thing over the years. I had a friend tell me that the government opens and censures mail in Europe. When I innocently asked her how she knew that she told me that it is well-known. She seemed surprised that I didn't "know" that, and wasn't buying it when I said that I was pretty sure that wasn't the case.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
12. Yeah, I think religion is a huge part of the ignorance.
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 01:24 AM
Aug 2014

You embrace magical thinking, you'll swallow anything ...

CTyankee

(63,889 posts)
22. because it is drilled into them from a very early age...
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 12:12 PM
Aug 2014

"USA! We're #1!" is what we hear in our ads and from all of our politicians (even those who know better).

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
24. well, to be honest
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 12:23 PM
Aug 2014

I've been to Europe plenty-o-times. They aren't exactly all rocket scientists either. There are some huge misconceptions over there about us.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
10. Of course they do, it is social engineering on a mass communications scale.
Wed Aug 20, 2014, 08:54 PM
Aug 2014

The M$M has a certain narrative to keep most of the populace ignorant of many key facts about this country.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
11. here is a possible answer
Wed Aug 20, 2014, 09:11 PM
Aug 2014

Never forget that two major ethnic groups made up those whose children would be called American "white people", Scotch-Irish and Germans. Both cultures had a hisotry of kings that would espouse a whole lot of poetic bullshit er political policy as a pretext to screw people over. The Scotch-Irish had their lands in Scotland taken, then got put in Ireland so they could dilute the native Catholic Irish. The Germans were used to kings that were outright nutters, and who were more than happy to emply religious prosecution. Both were used to having their lands and labor taken from them, by states that would emply some pretext. It did not help one whit that both the German and Scotch-Irish were those that embraced the "anabaptist" teachings that were horribly prosecuted. Yes, there was a time when to be a Baptist or Methodist meant you would walk past several of your friends being hung in the square.

The Scotch-Irish went to Dixie, indeed, it is no accident that the stars and bars is a modiefied Union Jack, with the cross of the Irish saint (patrick) the scotch saint (andrew), and the English cross of St George part TAKEN OFF. It is also why, to this day, Southerners are very concerned about land, especially farmland.

The north got many Germans (remember, German missed being our language by ONE vote), and they were also skeptical of any government. Keep in mind, that while Germany has an old Culture, it has a history of governments rising and falling, and a mistrust of said governments that was around long before the Weimar Republic, the Third Reich or the Berlin Wall.

So we have two cultures, both of whom are used to religious persecution, and both of whom think of the government as "those people that will steal from you." Granted, Canada has a similar mix, but in their case, the French helped to add a crucial, non anglo-saxon x factor.

rogerashton

(3,920 posts)
26. as a half Scotch-Irish, half German
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 01:18 PM
Aug 2014

descendant, I suggest that the writer his her/his facts wrong. The elite of this country trace their ancestry to the English "Country party," probably the only social group more anti-intellectual than Americans.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
27. I humbly ask you to read
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 11:04 PM
Aug 2014

Joe Beagant. He identified as Scotch Irish, and wrote eloquently about their influence, good and bad, on this nation.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
32. The majority of white Americans are of English/British ancestry, in fact
Sat Aug 23, 2014, 07:22 AM
Aug 2014

the English arrived first and in relatively greater numbers and have more descendants. As recently as the 1980 census "English" was the largest self-identified ancestry; most of the people who so self-identified their ancestry then now define themselves as "American", it seems. And the "Scots-Irish" didn't have their lands taken; they weren't Highlanders. They mostly came from the Scots Lowlands and the border country in the north of England; many of them got sent to Ireland in the Plantation of Ulster under James I and their descendants came to America. I'd recommend "Albion's Seed", by David Hackett Fisher, as being a better overview of the continuing cultural influence of distinctive regional British cultures on America.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
33. For certain areas, but not the Red state ones
Sat Aug 23, 2014, 01:49 PM
Aug 2014

Yes, there were many English in Dixie, but again, as folks like Joe Beagant could tell you, the vast majority of Dixie, whose descdentants populate the "Red States" were the Scotch-Irish.

http://www.archives.com/experts/garstka-katharine/the-scots-irish-in-the-southern-united-states-an-overview.html

"The Scots-Irish, as well as large numbers of German settlers, followed the Great Wagon Road that traversed the 600 miles from Pennsylvania to Georgia, many settling along that path. While the Germans and the Scots-Irish were not openly hostile to each other, they were separated by culture and religion and thus tended not to intermarry. Gradually the Scots-Irish moved south to the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, which became a launching point for further migration to the Carolinas, Georgia, Tennessee, and Kentucky. Eventually, with so many Scots-Irish settling in the south, Charleston became the second most important arrival port (after New York) for ships from Ireland."

"The Scots-Irish played a large role in the settlement of America, particularly in the southern United States. Their experiences in settling new lands in Ireland, and then again in the American colonies, helped to develop a hard-working, fearless, and sometimes brash, spirit. Occasionally lawless and violent, the Scots-Irish nevertheless had a big influence on the history of the United States; their descendants populated many frontier areas, and aspects of their culture, customs, and speech are still visible in parts of the south today."

Dixie, aka Red State land, was mostly Scotch irish, and of course, much of the West was also settled by descdenants who came from Dixie.

That article seemed fitting as it reference your reference of David Hackett Fisher. I found it while looking for him online

The reason I say this is because, again, The Scots-Irish brought along hisotrical baggage. Call it scars, call it prejudice, call it a mix of both, but they were used to the government being the enemy.

http://www.irishgenealogy.com/surnames/migration-scotch-irish.htm

"The first migration, then was touched off by a combination of drought, rack-renting, diminished trade in woolen goods, depression, and also religious discrimination and “persecution.” When the fourth successive year of drought ruined the crops in 1717, serious preparations began to be made for a migration. Ships were chartered, consultations were held, groups were organized, and property was sold. More than five thousand Ulstermen that year made the journey to the American colonies. There were but two real drawbacks--the perils of an ocean crossing and the expense of that passage. The practice of indenture has long been a familiar device."

"In 1717, when the leases on the large estate of the Marquis of Donegal in county Antrim expired, the rents were so greatly advanced that scores of tenants could not comply with the demands, and so were evicted from the farms their families had long occupied. During the next three years nearly a hundred vessels sailed from the ports in the North of Ireland, “carrying as many as 25,000 passengers, all Presbyterian.” Thousands of the Scoth-Irish began their New World careers as servants. In 1728, it was estimated that “above 3,200” persons had come from Ulster to America in the previous three years, and “that only one in ten could pay his own passage.” Going to America came to mean, by the middle of the century, not launching out into a vast unknown, but moving to a country where one’s friends and relatives had a home. It offered the very exciting chance to own one’s own land, instead of holding it on a lease that might end in rack-renting; it meant a heady freedom from religious and political restrictions; it even promised affluence and social prominence to those who were truly ambitious. Every group who went made it easier for others to follow. and so by 1775, probably 200,000 Ulstermen had migrated to America."

Also about the Census, keep in mind, Americans are not always the best judge of their own history, as you often point out. To lay my cards on the Table, I am American, of Puerto Rican descent. That means that when I go to St. Augustine, Florida, founded in 1565, I can laugh at the idea of the Pilgrims and Plymouth Rock. We were here long before the English had to steal food from the Indians in masschusetts, which they were stuck in because their navigator failed to arrive in Jamestown, Virginia. Yet every schoolboy and girl is taught that Plymouth Rock in 1620 was the birth of European settlement, which makes Florida annoyed (and I would assume it also that annoys those Scotch-Irish in Virginia too.)

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
34. Nope, for "red states" as well
Sat Aug 23, 2014, 05:18 PM
Aug 2014

and the early Virginians weren't Scots-Irish (not "Scotch"; Scotch is whisky). I had ancestors at Jamestown; they were from Somerset...which is about as far from the Scottish borders as you can get without falling into the Atlantic. Most of the early settlers of Virginia were from the southwest of England. The major wave of Ulster Scots settlement didn't start until c. 1720--and a significant number of the people called "Scots-Irish" were still English; some of my ancestors were what would probably be called "Scots-Irish", culturally, from a border reiving family in the north of England in the Scottish border country. I've seen estimates that Ulster Scots accounted for 10% of the population of the colonies in 1776 (which is a long way from a majority); and considering that a) there were more people of English and not Ulster Scots ancestry already in the colonies and b) those people of English ancestry intermarried with the descendants of Ulster Scots emigrants, saying "more Americans have English ancestry than any other" is still accurate.

bklyncowgirl

(7,960 posts)
14. My guess is that America is Type C or B but is evolving toward a Type A society
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 07:18 AM
Aug 2014

We are not or never have been type D.

As for why Americans are so ignorant about the facts in Western Europe I'd point out two things.

1. Physical distance, it costs a great deal of money to go to Europe and therefore most Americans will never actually go there. If they do go there, it is usually on tours where they will have little contact with actual Europeans aside from tour guides. Tour guides concentrate on dead Europeans--not the living. They know their audience--leave the politics behind. The few who actually get an in depth experience usually lose their faith in American exceptionalism rather quickly.

2. Americans are quite proud and stubborn and even if they know that things are better elsewhere they will often double down on defending why our way is better than theirs. "Why do they all want to come over here then?" Is a common response.

3. The American media does not give a true picture of what life is like in other countries. Fair enough. The media is in the business of selling entertainment. The fewer Americans offended the better.

I am really concerned about the future of my country. We seem to be stuck on stupid which is a very bad place to be.

 

Taitertots

(7,745 posts)
19. Commercials work. All TV is a commercial for the interests of the wealthy
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 11:36 AM
Aug 2014

As long as Americans continue to watch TV, they will remain ignorant.

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
23. Nobody does propaganda anymore like we do....
Thu Aug 21, 2014, 12:15 PM
Aug 2014

Intellectual curiosity isn't a trait that I would identify with a lot of Americans. They are more interested in American Idle than researching something told to them by an entertainment media source to independently validate if it is true or not.

polynomial

(750 posts)
29. The American experiment is
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 01:41 PM
Aug 2014

Not working too well...

Check this video about the banking system...it takes about twenty five minutes to play out the end is very good, so get a strong cup of coffee or a hard drink what ever you prefer...

It shows the basic interesting financial system Americans are in. It just might be true another war is around the corner. The thing is the real people that will loose a great deal of money are that very one percent.

This type of common knowledge is what the one percent do not want you to know...especially main stream media...Will Krugman ever have the wherewithal to talk about the American banking system like this...

Rothschild Conspiracy International Banking Cartel and The Federal Reserve



 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
30. There are people who pay more for a lunch than what some make in a month....
Fri Aug 22, 2014, 06:56 PM
Aug 2014

Then they try to deduct that lunch.

caraher

(6,278 posts)
31. One quick point about the Sweden thing
Sat Aug 23, 2014, 06:50 AM
Aug 2014

The paper everyone gets this from is quite dishonest about Sweden because most of the paper is about wealth distribution, but for their survey they substituted Sweden's income distribution figures:

We used Sweden’s income rather than wealth distribution because it provided a clearer contrast to the other two wealth distribution examples; although more equal than the United States’ wealth dis- tribution, Sweden’s wealth distribution is still extremely top heavy.


I'm really irked with the authors over this because I think otherwise their work is very important and highlights the vast gulf between Americans' perceptions and values regarding inequality and the reality. They introduced an apples-to-oranges comparison deliberately just so they could write things like "Americans want to be more like Sweden" at the cost of giving critics cover for dismissing their work as "bogus."

SoCalDem

(103,856 posts)
35. Too many americans want "the goodies"
Sat Aug 23, 2014, 11:53 PM
Aug 2014

without realizing that goodies are never free..

They think "their taxes" are too high, but they never truly understand that the many things in their lives are paid for by taxes, and they need them every day.

And when they have deductions from paychecks for health insurance, it's rarely for health CARE (which costs extra).

If people were willing to really pay more to GET more, they would have money left over for spending in "the economy", which would require more jobs created and more money for more people to spend.

The civilized nations have some version of "free health care/education/unemployment/old age pensions" and even though many pay a lot of taxes, they DO see real benefits coming to them and their families.

We just moan & groan and struggle until we die

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