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DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » I'm done, too.

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:17 PM

I'm done, too.

If anyone wants to keep in touch PM me.

No opus from me, those who know me know why.

Take care.

583 replies, 52684 views

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Reply I'm done, too. (Original post)
redqueen Aug 2014 OP
el_bryanto Aug 2014 #1
ChisolmTrailDem Aug 2014 #2
1000words Aug 2014 #3
closeupready Aug 2014 #4
leftstreet Aug 2014 #5
TwilightGardener Aug 2014 #7
Maven Aug 2014 #20
leftstreet Aug 2014 #45
hifiguy Aug 2014 #49
merrily Aug 2014 #230
hifiguy Aug 2014 #264
merrily Aug 2014 #266
AgingAmerican Aug 2014 #333
QC Aug 2014 #52
secondwind Aug 2014 #92
uponit7771 Aug 2014 #104
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lonestarnot Aug 2014 #564
Snotcicles Aug 2014 #170
SoCalDem Aug 2014 #529
Nye Bevan Aug 2014 #6
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Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #26
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Gormy Cuss Aug 2014 #86
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #90
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daleanime Aug 2014 #194
blackspade Sep 2014 #578
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dionysus Aug 2014 #143
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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:20 PM

1. Good luck with everything.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:20 PM

2. Peace to you, redqueen. :( nt

 

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Response to redqueen (Original post)


Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:22 PM

4. No, please don't go, just take a break, if necessary.

 

Your voice is important here - at least to me.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:24 PM

5. WTF is going on around here?!



May I ask, are you going somewhere else?

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #5)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:26 PM

7. That is my question...what is up today?

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #5)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:51 PM

20. The party goons who've been allowed to run roughshod over everyone else

(with the tacit approval of the DU admins)

...have finally ruined the site.

DU used to be a place to find a wealth of valuable and useful information.

Now it's just a platform for "look at me" posts by a vocal few.

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Response to Maven (Reply #20)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:25 PM

45. We need a DLCTurdWay Resistance Movement

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Response to Maven (Reply #20)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:29 PM

49. I don't think this has one thing to do with the Paulbots

 

or the Turd Way crowd. Not for a nanosecond.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #49)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 08:25 AM

230. You think it's the fault of liberals, then? Or something else entirely?

These are not rhetorical questions. I have no clue what is happening.

I always seem to show up in time to see threads like this, but not in time to see what caused them.

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Response to merrily (Reply #230)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:04 AM

264. It was all about an argument

 

Over a comic book cover and it started last Saturday.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #264)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:09 AM

266. Thanks. I appreciate your reply. As I kept reading down the thread, that started to seep in.

Maybe I should learn to read the entire thread before making my first post on it!

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #264)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:49 PM

333. Lordy

 

nt

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Response to Maven (Reply #20)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:33 PM

52. Bingo. n/t

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Response to Maven (Reply #20)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:49 PM

92. I have to agree..n/t

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Response to Maven (Reply #20)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:00 PM

104. +1

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Response to Maven (Reply #20)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 11:59 PM

179. Help me understand....

 

Can you lists links of a couple of examples?

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Response to Maven (Reply #20)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:54 AM

188. Yup. nt

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Response to Maven (Reply #20)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 09:56 AM

564. No shit. Are people waking up to it after months and months now?

 

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #5)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 10:56 PM

170. There is no comity here anymore. nt

 

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Response to Snotcicles (Reply #170)

Sat Aug 30, 2014, 07:05 PM

529. Amen to that

I read daily, but do not feel compelled to comment or post much, because the vitriol is rampant these days..

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:26 PM

6. Is this in some way related to Spiderwoman's buttocks? (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #6)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:29 PM

8. OK, I had to LOL.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #8)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:01 PM

26. That actually wasn't a joke.

There was a big kerfuffle over the way in which an 'alternate issue one' spiderwoman cover was drawn a few days back. For some reason, a lot of folks thought that was an important enough issue to fight over that a lot of anger and taunting went back and forth among the participants.

I think there are a lot bigger battles to fight in the war on cultural misogyny, and that that particular one wasn't helpful in changing how feminism is viewed on DU, much less the wider world. rq even posted another diary about it I saw pop up on the list again just this morning, with a picture of how it 'could have been drawn instead', and I think most comic book readers wouldn't have cared or even noticed whether it was drawn as originally, or in the 'hawkeye initiative-approved' way.

When you're fighting to even get people to notice misogyny is a problem in society, I think it's more helpful to focus on the more obvious fights, rather than those involving a change of 10 or 20 degrees of angle of a drawn character's rear end. Get people to recognize the more blatant problems, and you can slowly get them to recognize more and more subtle problems. Start with subtle ones, and you end up just getting more people set against you.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #26)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:24 PM

44. I see your point ... to some degree but,

I saw redqueen's point, too.

What is the target audience for comic books these days anyway.

A lot of niche groups have sprung up over the years, I think.

meh.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #44)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:58 PM

62. I didn't, at first.

I had to sit back and think about it from a female perspective before I could see why I was supposed to think it was a 'sexy' pose. I think the thread wound up being a lot of people talking past each other, rather than any sort of useful lesson for anyone. But I also think it's simply going to change over time on its own, now that more females are working in the comic book industry. People who have direct input are going to make stylistic changes, and, tbh, I still don't think most comic readers will care about those changes in pose or costume being made. As others noted, the average comic reader of today is not the reader of 20 years ago, and anyone who wants 'porn' can simply grab plenty of it straight out. So changes can be made, and readers won't actually care that they are, because they're not reading comics to look at drawings of poorly-clad women in contorted poses.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #62)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:37 PM

86. If the readers aren't drawn to the comics because of those drawings

why are they used?

They're use to draw readers to the comics, else some other image would be used.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #86)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:49 PM

90. Because the guys who draw the comics like them?

When you look at the titles that do the best in sales, I don't think you're going to find a lot of them are female-body-centric.

Most people don't look for the comics with the 'sexiest females'. They read specific series - Spiderman, Iron Man, the Avengers, Superman, etc, etc. (In my case, back in the day, Blue Devil, who, apparently, wasn't like by anybody but me.) Whether or not there even are any females shown in any given issue probably doesn't even affect sales from issue to issue. You're not going to 'not buy' an issue of a series you read simply because there are no 'sexy females' drawn in it.

What's going on here is two different things - First, an argument that the overall way in which women are drawn in comics falls in line with misogynistic standards. And the answer to that is yes. But second, the argument that it's driven by current demand. And I think the answer there is no. I think it's driven by a small number of artists, who created the styles that are used as guidelines by most artists. Get more artists in who don't hyperexaggerate human bodies, don't use weird contorted poses, but keep the storylines going, and I really don't think you're going to see any real drop in sales.

That's why I think people were 'talking past each other'.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #90)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:54 PM

97. The guys who draw the comics aren't volunteers, are they? Someone is paying for the art

and that someone has a fiduciary interest in making sure the product has the best market potential. If Jessica Rabbit heroines didn't sell, they'd try something else. IOW, it's a business decision.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #97)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:01 PM

107. It's highly probable that there's a business decision in there

but that doesn't mean it's based on reality. A lot of business decisions aren't, even in businesses that make millions of times more money than in the comic book industry. A few people decide they 'know' what people want, and that's what consumers get, whether they care or not.

One of the biggest hits of the last few decades was an indie title about four giant mutated turtles. Sure, they threw a female reporter in, but she's certainly not what propelled TMNT to business nirvana. Give people more choices, and they'll read them.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #107)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:06 PM

109. Yep.

 

No one was ever more surprised to become multi-millionaires than TMNT creators Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird. No one in the history of the world. They started it as an independently published spoof.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #109)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:10 PM

115. I actually bought the first half dozen issues or so when they first came out.

And I wish to heck I'd held onto them longer. Ended up selling them for $300 or so I think, back before the real boom in popularity and thinking I'd scored a nice profit.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #115)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:20 PM

123. I cashed mine out at the first top of the market

 

in '90-91 and got $600 in store credit for them. Didn't have to pay for a comic for months.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #115)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 06:13 PM

142. i have issues 2-4 somewhere in my collection, gathering dust :)

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #90)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:11 AM

194. I can think of at least one more Blue Devil fan....

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #90)

Mon Sep 1, 2014, 06:39 AM

578. I think your spot on here.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #86)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:06 PM

110. As yes, that pesky invisible Hand of the Market!

 



Comic art is generally fucking awful. Comic fans are generally the first to point this out. They purchase the series for story and character - it really is a case of "reading it for the articles." If you think anyone picks up and issue and goes "Rad, look at ll this Rob Liefeld art!" you've never spent ANY amount of time among comic dweebs

comic art persists the way it does not because the "market demands it" but because the industry itself is mired in the Tits-and-Ass pose, vacuumed spandex, and MusclesEverywhereWithPouches style of comic art. The market is quite willing to accept "atypical" looks in its heroes and heroines, it's just that the industry doesn't want to take the "risk" of shedding its 50 year-old art style.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #110)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:09 PM

113. Liefeld has been a one-man blight on comic art

 

for going on 25 years. The guy can not draw. And he has spawned legions of copycats. Go back and look at some John Byrne, Neal Adams or George Perez if you want to see what GOOD comics art looks like.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #113)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:12 PM

117. Actually he does quite well, for a man who draws using only his nose and upper lip

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #117)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:19 PM

122. Give a chimp a Rapidograph

 

and you will get art that looks like Barry Windsor-Smith compared to Liefeld's.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #110)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:27 PM

127. Tits-and-Ass pose etc. apparently sells.

The one trend in comic art that seems positive is that female characters now may have well-defined muscles too -- the old ones apparently only had well-defined gluteus maxima.

Comic dweebs aren't the only audience. There are others who may want to read comics but aren't regular readers yet. That's market potential. Decisions on cover art in particular should be geared to that potential audience as well as appealing to regular readers. Somehow I doubt that the big publishers ignore new market potential when art is considered.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #127)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:53 PM

132. The only thing that DOESN'T sell is poor storytelling

 

And even then, established lines will carry on (I'm looking at you, Superman.)

Enough comic titles and producers have made the effort to change the art style to something less, well, stupid to show that this sells just fine. It doesn't harm their market at all, and in fact gets good publicity - because it actually broadens their market - Turns out people are more likely to pick up a comic book if it DOESN'T have softcore porn on the cover.

Thus the ruckus over the spiderwoman cover - Marvel already knows that it doesn't need to vacuum-pack its female characters in order to sell comics. It is in fact leading the industry on the issue, along with various other inclusive changes. The spiderwoman ready-to-be-mounted cover is actually a step backwards for the company standards. And your - and perhaps their - line of thinking on this is actually pretty insulting to the target audience.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #132)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:41 AM

197. It's not the main cover, though, scoot.

It's a special edition they commissioned and are making available, probably on a limited basis.

So how much you want to bet that the "controversy" around the cover drives demand for what one suspects will be a limited release, through the roof?

Why, a conspiratorial mind might think they drummed up the controversy just for that reason.

Hmmm.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #110)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 06:14 PM

143. you had to mention Rob Liefeld. i now nee to go drink some bleach. gee thanks...

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Response to dionysus (Reply #143)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 06:19 PM

144. Might want to save some for your eyes!

 

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #144)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 06:24 PM

145. now i need to poke my eyes out! you owe me a braille monitor and keyboad dude.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #86)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:11 AM

243. A lot of things draw customers that decent people would refrain from.

For just one example, porn involving minors. Another example, US networks showing the fall of the twin towers wiped out images of people throwing themselves out of windows. I am not equating either of those things with a comic book drawing, just trying to make a point.

This post not about the spiderwoman drawing specifically. I did not see it or the thread about it. I just wanted to say that drawing customers is not always the be all and end all and suppliers, vendors or whatever do limit themselves all the time even if something is a sure seller.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #26)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:45 PM

56. I saw that thread, and stayed out of it.

But the absurdity was neatly encapsulated in Nye Bevan's question.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #26)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:50 PM

60. Well, see, that's part of the issue re: the misogyny on this site--

seems a lot of men feel they can evaluate/criticize/belittle feminists, and advise feminists--women, in particular--about what battles should be fought, and where, and why.

I suggest you review some art history texts to see how the portrayal of a specific comic strip woman might torque those of us who continue to fight for respect, autonomy, and equality.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #60)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:04 PM

66. Shrug.

I've watched a lot of people fight for change over the years, and seen which sorts of fights work well, which sorts work poorly.

I don't think the fact that I've got a different chromosome prevents me from being able to generalize what I've learned from one type of fight to another.

I'm not going to shut down your voice, but I'm also not going to simply let you proclaim that no one can understand something unless they're the person being victimized in a given fight. Oddly enough, men can understand something about the fight against misogyny, just as it's possible for white people to understand something about the fight against racism, or straight people to understand something about the fight against homophobia.

I won't make any suggestions to you as to what you should read, but I'll note I did enjoy the art history I took back in college.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #66)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:07 PM

68. Bleh...

It's not your chromosome that's the issue here.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #68)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:11 PM

71. Really?

Well, see, that's part of the issue re: the misogyny on this site--

seems a lot of men feel

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #71)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:15 PM

118. So,

your 'maleness' is defined by a chromosome? Your socio-cultural milieu in which you reached your majority has had no part in shaping you?

I think that's rather sad.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #118)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:26 PM

126. Unfortunately, this is why

I always have the impulse to reply to pop cultural drivel like this, "Oh, you're a radical feminist. That's so cute."

You've just had the gall to call him "sad" but seem unable to realize that the socio-cultural whatever it fits under is "incredibly rude." It deserves little but a reply of the same caliber.

It's for this lack of any manners coupled with incredible arrogance that causes a great deal of resistance, mostly because I don't want to be forced to assume exactly the same level of perpetual outrage. It gives me a headache and takes time away from the family.

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Response to Treant (Reply #126)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 05:27 PM

135. Pop cultural drivel?

Lack of any manners?



Perpetual outrage seems to be code for anti-feminism. I'll just have to welcome you to my IL.

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Response to Treant (Reply #126)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:12 AM

202. Perpetual outrage?

This place is in outrage over one thing or another all the time. The difference is the popular outrage is dictated by what is on cable TV. Redqueen's is not. Gaza, once the burning issue. is now entirely forgotten. Concern for Ferguson has been replaced by jury hides based on concern about the oppression of white men. Redqueen's posting didn't follow Cable TV programming, and you don't like the fact she has the nerve to care about issues you think unimportant. Just because someone posts an opinion doesn't mean you are required to agree with it. Yet you are outraged that she dared to post about issues that don't pass your approval.

This load of excuses about "perpetual outrage" is transparent. We get the point. You don't want to hear about anything as inconsequential as misogyny. There is a lot of stuff I don't like hearing about either, like fantasy presidential politics. I trash the threads. You, however, are OUTRAGED that someone has the nerve to interrogate cultural images. What you call "pop culture drivel' has been the subject of academic analysis for decades. The rest of the site is not going to bow to your refusal to acquaint yourself with intellectual developments of the past thirty years. You don't want to be exposed to such ideas. That is your choice. But don't for a second think your little pretense about outrage is even mildly convincing. You are plenty outraged. You're outraged at challenges to power and patriarchy. As irritating as you find it, not everyone feels compelled to promote capital over human rights.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #202)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:20 AM

203. Sustained applause and a standing ovation with some cheering. n/t

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #202)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 08:07 AM

222. +1,000,000

Nailed it!

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #202)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:40 AM

253. Mmmmm-hm.


"You, however, are OUTRAGED that someone has the nerve to interrogate cultural images."

....

OK let' take attempt to take "interrogate cultural images" seriously.

Yeah.

The problem is, you see, that the cultural images typically under interrogation of this kind have nowhere near a fraction of the power in affecting society that people like you attribute to them.

They fascinate YOU ... because you're interrogating them. That's why they seem like such a big significant fucking deal. You've chosen to treat them as if they are, that's all.

That doesn't mean that they have any inherent value to anyone else, any more than your interrogation of them.

It's not "outrage" being directed at this ludicrous waste of time, I;m afraid, it's mostly bafflement and mirth.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #253)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:23 PM

314. Fine, then don't read about it

No one asked you to. You are not everyone, and the fact that other people do care is demonstrated by responses to those threads and the fact there are thousands of books and even more articles published on those subjects. Go focus on whatever it is you care about and leave others to talk about what interests them. Capital, power, and privilege can survive without your efforts to shut down critiques of them. Corporate media's profits remain safe. You don't need to fret so that some feminists who read academic analysis are doing awful things like thinking.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #202)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:39 PM

361. Now is a good time as any to mention that you

 

are very good at communicating your ideas. Excellent always to read what your opinions are as you make them pointy sharp and clear.

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Response to JaydenD (Reply #361)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:41 PM

363. she creates a lot of dots to follow that simplifies the whole process for many. i agree.

 

analytically.... always. without emotion. which is fun. and kinda surprising it is so hard for many, that claim inherently this would be a gift of man.

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Response to JaydenD (Reply #361)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:50 PM

367. Thank so much

That's very kind of you to say.

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Response to Treant (Reply #126)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:33 AM

275. "Lack of manners and arrogance"

 

That is it in a nutshell. How you frame and advance an argument is a Big Deal and civility and reason are much more convincing that perpetual outrage. Style counts.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #275)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:55 AM

282. yet, using comments like perpetual outrage is and passive aggressive insults is an

 

acceptable "style". it is those that do not buy into the slights and insults, and calls them out, that are being rude.

a person suggested to me, if only i learned how to be passively aggressive, i would not get as many hides. personally, i see passive aggressive as cowardly and dishonest. i do not buy into cowardly or dishonest, and will not do it.

it is about "style". though i do not necessarily agree how you get to your conclusion

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #282)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:40 AM

292. truth.

the passive aggressive Tone usually wins out on DU3.

They think they are subtle with it.

They are not.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #292)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:56 AM

298. actually, the people that are in the know, because of following conversation....

 

clearly see. what the passive aggressive counts on, and are confident in (and they have reason to be confident cause it is successful. little risk. the risk is calling it), is... we will clearly see the insult. jury will be clueless. the insult slides. though still. insult. how many times has your sexuality or sex life been challenged on du, and not a single hide in saying it. how many times have you been called an hysterical woman. and that is fine. almost... always. man hater. always.

we see, we know. and those not playing do not.

the odds are in the passive aggressors favor. that is why i fail.

ironic, huh?

now, though this picture does not feel comfortable on the passive aggressor, they can alert. and it may or may not be hidden. depends solely on the make up of four duers that fit so many of those angles. hate for me. hate of women. not participating. passive aggressors. this is cool and too funny. love life woman. so... what perfect manner for a passive aggressive person to be the most effective? why, participation of jury. lol. and what better manner of a just reason for passive aggressive, that would effect you and i the most.

conclusion.

a jury can read this very post, that is mostly for me understanding what is happening on du. not wanting redq or bigtree to walk. because i value both voices. whether one agrees with me or not. it is merely looking at the issue we are talking about. me in my blunt out there manner. because i do not feel it is honest to walk the passive aggressive. and it could be hidden. i am rolling the dice.

that is was saying last night.

cause really. all skineer is asking i be civil. my challenge is trying to gauge what is civil. i never had that issue for a lifetime. literally. not only have i ever and only been considered civil in real life. people actually see me as loving. nice. the good girl with a boy (rollin eyes), not the bad girl in leather riding a motorcycle.

all in how others create us. funny funny. i enjoyed this thread. it took me all over the place. a decade of my life. now. i am outta of here to enjoy. something all these time outs have so created for me. love you woman.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #282)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:28 PM

320. It's not about style, it's about content

The style argument is simply a variant on the tone argument. The point is male privilege shall not under any circumstances be questioned.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #320)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:34 PM

323. it SHOULDNT be " about style, it's about content" but it consistently is...

 

is my argument.

The point is male privilege shall not under any circumstances be questioned.


that would be the point. i agree. and as a feminist, i have to call it out. i do not have a choice. hence our risk. this is all very pragmatic conversation. it should be very easy to follow.

the odds. risk. rolling the dice.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #275)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:27 PM

317. Redqueen does not have a single hide

You were saying?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #317)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:45 PM

330. Sigh. So beside the point.

 

I am on the far left in terms of US politics - an anti-militarist democratic socialist who is adamantly pro-equal rights for ALL and anyone familiar with my extensive posting history, going back to 1995 as MN ChimpH8r, knows this, yet in the now-infamous comic book thread was called a "neoliberal" and likened to Breitbart for my comments on the subject matter therein. What is the point of that? It's a ridiculous assertion.

Insulting people who probably agree with 95% of your views and policy preferences because of their genuinely principled disagreement on the rest is counterproductive in the long run IMO.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #330)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:53 PM

337. I'm constantly insulted

in far worse ways, so you'll have to forgive me if I don't feel a lot of sympathy. Every woman who criticizes rape porn or human trafficking is compared to the far right. You yourself rec'd a thread by a now PPR'd RW troll calling me out as "imaginary."

I would guess that RQ doesn't see you in 95% agreement with her. I would guess she might see that agreement closer to 5%. Your very contention that the differences are minimal reveals the extent to which you trivialize issues that are important to her. People seem to give themselves a lot of credit for simply posting on a Democratic discussion board, that doing so is supposed to come with some sort of assumption of allied status. It does not.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #337)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:59 PM

343. Pardon me for assuming that

 

People on a "Democratic" board would generally share liberal or leftist views. Dopey me.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #343)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:01 PM

344. "Dopey me.". ya. hence the constant clarification. pointing out, with the hope a poster will listen

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #344)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:03 PM

346. Whatever.

 

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #346)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:05 PM

347. kinda like... so, no listening? is that your point of whatever?

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #347)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:08 PM

348. I said what I have to say.

 

And stand by it. Bye bye

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #348)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:09 PM

350. yes. as did i.

 

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #343)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:24 PM

357. All it means is someone has an account

It tells you nothing about their political ideology. That is disclosed through their views on issues.

When you make a point of telling people their rights, indeed their existence, is insignificant, you can hardly be surprised if they don't see you as on their side. Isn't the point of such statements to erase women like me, RQ, and ism from political discourse? You then turn around and claim you agree on 95%, which makes clear you our rights as so insignificant that they can't be conceived of as more than 5 percent. I would suggest if I held positions that were liberal in most areas but opposed gay marriage, you wouldn't think that amounted to a mere 5%. Yet you imagine we should think so little of ourselves, that we should gleefully accept the fact that you can declare us imaginary and irrelevant and still be an ally? No. It doesn't work that way.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #357)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:03 PM

377. Presume away

 

I would try and persuade you to modify your opposition with logic and extrinsic evidence. I would still welcome you as an ally on those issues where we share common ground. I am not much for all-or-nothing purity tests. That isn't the way my mind, or the world, works.

Other than your gay rights analogy I can't make head or tail out of the rest of the word salad.

And I am now DONE with this thread.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #343)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 06:36 PM

444. Yet you find it acceptable to insult feminists as right-wing

and declare their life experiences "imaginary." But I think we got the point. YOU are too important. The rest of us, not so much.
You're willing to accept us as an ally in fighting for your rights, while you declare ours insignificant. That is not what allies are.

I didn't submit you or anyone else to any test. I commented on your whine about redqueen and your assumption that I or others owe you something for posting here.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #444)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 06:48 PM

445. You seem to be mistaking me for someone else.

 

It was not I who pointed out the similarities between some of the positions rq took and the Meese Commission's so-called findings. I will own up to, and own, what I have said, but not to things I haven't said even if I agree with them.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #445)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 07:19 PM

447. Is that not your name rec'ing this thread?

http://election.democraticunderground.com/10025361657

You'll have to excuse me if I take that rather personally. The OP, now PPR'd as a RW troll, declares my experiences "imaginary." Seeing as I don't exist, I'm not sure how much use an "imaginary" ally such as myself could be.

Aside from my self-indulgent hurt here, the way this relates to your complaint about redqueen is that it shows that insults are directed toward feminists too, and quite often. This one is hurtful to me personally because it ridiculed some very unpleasant personal experiences I had with prostitution. I recall you responded similarly to a post I made pointing to Ism's post about her reunion of street kids, mostly sex workers who are now dead. Those are real human lives that count. Dismissing them as imaginary or nonsense is about as insulting as it gets.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #447)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 07:31 PM

448. Yeah, I rec'd it. So did 18 other DUers. And I am proud to share that rec with La Lioness,

 

one of my favorite people here. I recognize some other very good DUers on that rec list as well. I had no idea that poster had been tombstoned, not that it makes that any difference to me. So all 19 of us are bad?

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #448)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 07:49 PM

450. What it shows is you thought it a good idea to ridicule me as imaginary

and that you consider people caught up in the sex trade as insignificant. It shows that you proudly participate in insulting others, me in particular, but then for some reason expect me to care that RQ pointed out your views were neoliberal. It shows that you expect to be treated as above reproach despite your treatment of others.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #450)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 07:58 PM

453. It remains that

 

18 other DUers rec'd that thread. Yet you single me out. To call me a neoliberal is to twist the word beyond all meaning. I value language, am a professional writer and care about its accurate usage. I don't care if I am insulted by someone on a message board. My ego isn't that fragile, but if you're going to insult me use an insult that is at least in the same universe of relevance to what I say.

And you do not have one damned idea what I do or do not think other than the actual WORDS I type on this board, and your claim to do so is exactly the arrogance I was referring to upthread. You are free to claim omniscience. I refrain from doing so. My posts represent my own viewpoint only unless I specifically state that I am agreeing with another poster. I never claimed to be the Last Word on anything, unlike some people.

And at this point I am ending this exchange.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #453)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 08:33 PM

457. I single you out because you are the one complaining about being insulted

by redqueen. You are the only one of those people whining to me about how you have been mistreated. You hold Rq up to scrutiny but object to it when directed against you.

Your reaction again shows your double-standard, that some people count and not others, which really is at the heart of the substance of the issues debated.

The common view of prostitution on this board is neoliberalism as critiqued through theory of social reproduction. The entire "choice" excuse is a neoliberal argument. http://www.democraticunderground.com/125548526 It posits the marketplace as the ultimate determinate of rights.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #450)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 08:03 PM

455. Your name isn't mentioned in that OP. /nt

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #275)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:35 PM

324. Good Luck

making this argument around here. I'm amazed at how many people don't understand this, what I always thought was fairly obvious to most adults, concept. I always wonder, Do these people work for a living?

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Response to RobinA (Reply #324)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:38 PM

326. "Do these people work for a living?" wow. an insult.

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #66)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:36 AM

206. How old are you.

 

Please answer.

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Response to LeftOfWest (Reply #206)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 08:27 AM

231. Um, ok.

45 this year. And you, since you demanded it of me?

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #231)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:57 AM

300. Sounds like a come-on, or an insult.

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #26)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 08:15 AM

228. If that caused a lot of outrage, and caused some one to leave,

 

Then DU is pretty much useless anyway.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #26)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 08:32 AM

234. Was that why big tree left, too? Or are people leaving

for a variety of reasons and it just coincided as to time accidentally?

Sorry for asking but when I see threads like this, I always feel as though I walked into the theater three minutes before credits began to roll. And sometimes, curiosity gets the better of me.

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Response to merrily (Reply #234)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 08:52 AM

239. I think different, but tbh, we don't even

know for sure that that fight was why rq is out, although the timing suggests it. Someone had posted an OP about bigtree's leaving in which a commenter had linked to fairly blatant hate speech of some sort or other, but I can't recall if it was racist or misogynistic.

As someone posted either there or here, people just get ground down over time over what seems a neverending fight. I think they need to rest and recharge, and decide if it's the fight they want to keep fighting. Anything worth fighting for almost invariably takes a lot more time anyone fighting for it would like. I think you can take pointers from other fights too - examine how the gay community and the mj legalization folks started winning more fights. And see which strategies and tactics last, and which create backlashes. I think over time, if you look at the different fights it's become plain that leading people into change creates less backlash and lasts better than trying to impose change upon people or tell them how they must change. And this is pretty constant whether on a national level or a one on one relationship. Socialize, gain respect, and convince people one step at a time, and you change them. Piss them off, and they refuse to see what you're trying to tell them simply out of spite.

The catch 22 of that, of course, is that people who have the most 'fire' for a given fight are also more likely to carry a lot of anger about the status quo. So to be most effective, you end up having to harness that anger to give you energy, and not simply let it loose on those who seem most ignorant, or even invested in the status quo. When you let the anger and other negative emotions out, you harm your own cause, lose respect, and help those trolling you.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #239)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:05 AM

241. What a wonderful reply to a simple question! Really great.

Thanks, Erich.

While I am at it, I add that I always like your posts--and not only because I agree with a lot of them politically.

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Response to merrily (Reply #241)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:23 AM

246. I try to take people more seriously these days.

In my early blogging days over on Daily Kos, I was a lot more sarcastic, more impressed with my own 'wit'. It actually took going through some of my psych-related nursing classes for me to realize how less than helpful those sorts of postings were. No matter how far apart you are with someone on an issue, your individual stances don't simply come out of a vacuum. They come out of pain, out of fear, out of anger, out of hope, out of love (whether of self or others), all informed by the very different lives we've all lived. Just like everyone else, I get frustrated when people don't 'see' what I think they 'should', but I try not to simply go at them head on. Find places you agree with others, establish respect that you each can reason, and then push your argument with at least that modicum of respect, trying to find the shift in thought that is the key to allowing them to see things as you do. I don't want people to simply adopt what I think is 'right', I want them to be able to see what I do, and to decide to make that change because they can now see more.

And I realize that it IS a neverending fight, even within oneself. There are parts of me that are still blind to various struggles of women, of people of colour, of homosexuals, of transgendered. And denial is a reflex. But I like to think that I remember AFTER the initial denial, to try and examine the issue in question from more angles, to see it from more eyes. Sometimes I get there quicker, sometimes slower, and once in a while, I decide whatever it is has more influences than just racism, just sexism, etc, and that while they might feed in in part, they may not actually be the prime motivator.

I think what's important is that we actually do end up with change for the better for those who come after us, not that we 'win points' individually in blog fights.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #246)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:04 AM

263. As a woman, I have had some pretty bad experiences on the job. However I

believe that whatever I had to endure does not compare with what people of color and members of the GLBT community have had to endure. But, that is not the point. I don't want to quibble about which suffering is greater or more pervasive. Point is, to one degree or another in the US, most members of those groups have had to endure things they never should have had to endure. And, if I think my issues at work were nothing at all compared with rape or having your unarmed teenaged son shot to death, they were still enough that I can relate on some level to being treated as less than simply because of what you were born.

However, if you have never been subjected to anything of the kind, I guess it may be hard to relate to. So in that case, I would put a thumb on the scale of what members of those groups are saying.

I don't spend a lot of time in single issue forums, including the women's forum. However, from what I have seen here and there, women often get mocked when they try to explain their issues. And alerts on posts about women's issues are treated differently from alerts on stereotyping and bigotry of other groups. I am neither defending those things or attacking them. There may be reasons to put women's issues in a different class, just as I put my own negative experiences in a different class. I am just stating my opinion about what I have observed.

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Response to merrily (Reply #263)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:17 AM

269. the little that happens in the work force permeates thru out society

 

and is arrived at from society in a much bigger picture. of disrespect. entitlement. privilege. these things are what allows the "bigger". be it the acceptance of rape, even using it as an entertainment value. domestic violence, thumb rule, wife knowing her place, to flat out murder.

our society is so use to this treatment of women that we tend to suggest that it is not on the same scale as gays and blacks. but, i suggest that we are so accustomed to the denigration of women, humiliating, shaming that it is hard for us to see a lot of it. whereas with gays and black.... in your face denigration will often be called out. though as i type, we allow a lot of the ism of all groups in blindness, cause it is just little, perpetuating the larger.

the point though. i think it is important that we speak about the little stuff for awareness and a greater understanding to how we get to the point of the bigger stuff.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #269)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:43 AM

277. I agree seabeyond and I don't mean to belittle the things that women endure either.

Things that happened to me on the job, both physical and financial, did not seem little. And I should not have had to go through them at all.

However, I cannot equate them with rape or being shot to death. However, it's the mindset about what it is okay to say or do to women or people of color or members of the GLBT community that pervades society and leads to the more heinous things done to members of those groups. That mindset has to be nipped in the bud every time it crops up.

Mocking, snark, dismissiveness as to any of those groups does not belong anywhere in the Democratic Party, including DU. Candor compels me to add that I have to question whether people who do that are actually Democrats, even in name.

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Response to merrily (Reply #277)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:12 AM

285. exactly. how we like to dismiss a black youths experience of being followed in a store,

 

whereas the white counterpart is not. huge deal, related to ferguson? some would argue not even close to being the same level. YET, without the mentality of the young black person followed in the store, the killing of mike would not have happened, or allowed all thru the nation. it ties in.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #285)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:35 AM

290. Again, I agree. All of it has to nipped in the bud.

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Response to merrily (Reply #290)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:41 AM

293. which is all redq was saying. the battle fuggin assumed. she was told she needed

 

sex, and it would all be better, per a long timer. shit like that.

why wouldnt it be called out. from each and every duer.

why isnt redq allowed to simply make that statement without harassment.

and how fuggin ironic.... that this is exactly what we talk about in hof, what feminists are talking about, that happens with interaction of womens issues on the net.

all of this basic.

all of this obvious.

and the insults we must endure, simply to have the right to say.... only that.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #293)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:46 AM

294. I have not seen the thread yet Still trying to make my way through this one.

However, based on the threads that I have seen, what you say does not surprise me.

Not correct at all, to say the least.

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Response to merrily (Reply #294)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:03 PM

304. this is when i started walking away. i was kicked off myself. i read the thread

 

after it had already hit 50 or more. i get to a regular poster that sneakedly implies redq or hof member simply needs to be laid. i alert. it was clear to the jury. though a few pretended otherwise. but. the post stayed. it should have been an easy hide, for a progressive board. do not tell women we should just be laid, and life is good. not only is that bad. but, it implies or goes further to the rape joke. about just laying back and enjoying.

as feminists. it is my responsibility to say. no. you are not allowed to say that to me. you are being a sexist. and let me tell you the many reason why.

i should not have to endure sexist and misogynist slurs, in order to say something very basic, simple, that we all know.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #304)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:08 PM

308. i digressed. after the post was not hidden, i too decided i was done.

 

i trashed the thread. unlike i have ever done in my history of du. i was done. every thread that popped up, that was merely a feeding ground to insult women, i trashed. i stopped reading. i stopped coming on du. it was redq walking that brought me back. the people she is speaking out, merely insulting. about half have been hidden. i assume our friendly (many) anti feminist troll easy to kick off. yet about half, that is only about insult stand.

more, many more valued her voice whether agreed or not. to me, that says a hell of a lot. that is why i do not accept the walk out, lol. interesting. i am outta here. thanks. and have a good day.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #308)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 05:10 PM

435. Thank you. You have a good day as well.

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Response to merrily (Reply #263)

Sat Aug 30, 2014, 11:15 PM

551. "never been subjected to anything of the kind"

Is there anybody in the world who has never been mistreated? I find that hard to believe. And I do not think it goes by various classes either.

I think of a GLBT classmate of mine who recently got married. Has he suffered a lot of abuse in life by virtue of his sexual orientation? I have not lived his life, obviously, any more than he has lived mine, but from where I sit his life does not look that bad.

Same with my black co-worker. Same with almost all of the women I know. If they are experiencing some sort of daily or weekly or monthly or bi-yearly outrages, then they are not sharing them with people they know.

I have no doubt they have experienced some crap, because I think everybody has, and it can be really bad for some people, but horror can cut across all categories. I think of my white male classmate whose whole family died in a fire when he was 14. It's a mean old world and there's a number of mean people in it.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #551)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 07:21 AM

557. You miss the point. It's not simply being mistreated.

Sure, we are all mistreated for reasons having nothing to do with the way we were born. For the sake of discussion, let's call that ordinary mistreatment. Of course, I realize everyone experiences ordinary mistreatment. It's not an esoteric point. As everyone seems to love to tell us life is unfair.

But on top of those ordinary mistreatments, members of certain groups get an extra portion of mistreatment simply because of the group into which they were born. White males, especially WASP's, never had that extra portion simply because of how they were born.

I am not sure why you seem to be trying to educate me about people of color and members of the GLBT community being mistreated because I mentioned both those groups in very beginning of the post to which you are supposed to be responding.

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Response to merrily (Reply #557)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 11:02 AM

566. what I am trying to say

is that I do NOT see any extra portion, whatever that means.

I can think of some white males, Kurt and Dan, who received all kinds of "extra" portions that I know I never had to put up with. Kurt was tormented daily through junior high - because of his glasses I guess. Sam with Dan, although he later became a bit of a bully with my little brother and almost picked a fight with me one day, but there he was getting the crap beaten out of him while a circle of guys stood around cheering and one guy yells out "I've got him next".

It does not necessarily take orientation, skin color or gender to get an extra portion.

My black co-worker, for example, is ridiculously good looking, and I think it might take surgery to get the smile off his face. If life deals him an "extra portion" of anything, it seems to be an extra portion of "good things". Has he experienced some racist bullsh*t in his life? I do NOT doubt it, or excuse it, but put it on a scale and the good things will probably far, far outweigh the bad. At least from where I sit, having known him at work for almost ten years.

I just don't see this simplistic view where male WASPs supposedly have it easy in life, and most of the adherents of that theory have not really flown a mile with the wings of a WASP, or they grew up upper class and have stayed there and think most other white people are rich too.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #566)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 11:05 AM

567. If you do not see that extra portion, you are wrong. And maybe willfully so. nt

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Response to merrily (Reply #567)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 12:04 PM

569. possibly

or maybe I am right, and wilfully so.

You believe in the extra portion, because you believe you have experienced it, but having only lived ONE life, how much have you really experienced? Ultimately no more than I have, and I am an observer and a social scientist.

One other thing I observe about supposed handicaps, is that they can be used in defense. I had a co-worker who was being critical of something I was doing and I responded "Leave me alone, I have Aspergers". This was partly in jest, but suddenly I went from a villain who was being scourged into a "victim" who was receiving sympathy.

It's much nicer to receive sympathy than excoriation, don't you agree?

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #569)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 12:09 PM

570. Until I know you better, I am going to drop this particular discussion with you.

If you are willfully ignorant about women and minorities getting an extra portion then any effort to try to convince you otherwise is nothing but a waste of time. I have other things to do I'd rather do with my posting time.

If you are not, but are sincerely unaware, we can always pick up this discussion another day.

You are not right about this, I know that.

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Response to merrily (Reply #570)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 12:49 PM

571. you know you are right

but it is too much work to try to prove it.

I, on the other hand, expended a fair amount of wasted effort to bring you to my point of view.

But of course, given a choice between a) changing their mind and b) proving that there is no need to do so, most people will get busy on the proof.

But if you did make the definitive argument for your case, you might want to save it for posterity http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/160

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #239)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:29 AM

248. redq can thoroughly run circles around this issue, she is so well informed. the men

 

that regularly attack her know this to be true. they do not enter the thread arguing the issue, or specifically what she is talking about. what they do is throw out snide comments like, ... maybe that woman duer simply needs to get laid. a tired and old insult sexist men enjoy throwing at women to insult, shame and shut up. and jury allows it to stand. that is what the issue is. not a comic strip.

when we have hides and pile ons by the same group of men, then we watch months and years later kicked off for being a troll, rw'er, misogynist. yea... but, we dealt with the disruption for years. the insults for years. and administration is just getting to it.

what you are suggesting is the issue is not even close.

at this point, i have to ask, did i reply in a fashion that was soft enough, kind enough to meet your level of being listened to? respectfully? does the direction i took the issue meet your level of worthiness for discussion?

do you see the flaw in your criticism?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #248)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:42 AM

255. 'At this point, i have to ask, did i reply...'

Yes you did, which is why I'll respond seriously. And because I do have some respect for you, based upon your writings. And btw, I was wondering where you were, since I just yesterday checked your transparency when I saw I hadn't seen you post anything lately.

If you reread what you just wrote, and sum it up, it comes down to 'everyone posting against her are trolls'. You're saying that no matter how 'soft' or 'kind' or with whatever approach you take, it doesn't matter. Nothing will change. And if you honestly believe that, I don't even understand why you would waste your time in posting.

I do believe you can create change, here and there, a poster or two at a time. And what you say is a 'flaw in my criticism' is what I would simply call a disagreement about the tactics employed in attempting to create that change. You don't feel my tactics are worthwhile, while I feel the tactics that employ a more aggressive or even 'angry' tone are counterproductive.

Do you think the Ferguson police handled the protests well? Or Israel and Gaza? Meeting anger with anger? Force with force? Aggression leads to aggression. It only 'feeds' the trolls when you respond to the insults.

I'm not disagreeing on 'the issue', simply disagreeing with the efficacy of the chosen tactics.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #255)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:02 AM

262. thank you for taking my post seriously, and addressing respectfully.

 

i think you will find, consistently, with respectful posts, conversation ensues.

secondly.

If you reread what you just wrote, and sum it up, it comes down to 'everyone posting against her are trolls'. You're saying that no matter how 'soft' or 'kind' or with whatever approach you take, it doesn't matter. Nothing will change.


no. that is your interpretation of what i wrote. that is how YOU sum it up. that is not what i am saying at all. there are people that disagree the cover was meant to be offensive to a group of women. there are people that clearly saw their intent was to use a woman, in a sexual manner, to get the $. evidence being that buy so many, and you get this. they knew what they were doing. redq knew what they were doing. and one poster in particular admits that was the purpose. but no.... that is NOT saying everyone that disagree is a troll.

redq and i have been on here for over a decade. we are well aware of the posters and have had enough cnversation to know their position, and their style. and the same goes for our manner of posting and our issues. when we have the same old posters, using that thread to dismiss, insult, shame feminists on du, we get that HANDFUL of merely trolls (well, personally, i do not like using the term troll. i think there are many democrats that just participate and reinforce patriarchy for their own rewards, and they are not particularly troll.)

over the years i have heard from a great number of posters that have developed awareness from our posts. i absolutely do not think it is for nothing. those people go into their real life and interact in a non sexist, aware manner and the abuse is worth the reward i get.

so, no... i did not sum it up, as you summed it up for me.

what you say is a 'flaw in my criticism' is what I would simply call a disagreement about the tactics employed in attempting to create that change. You don't feel my tactics are worthwhile, while I feel the tactics that employ a more aggressive or even 'angry' tone are counterproductive.


this is where i do better with questions, then telling another "what they are saying". again, many times i merely see it as a disagreement also, as i can read me state, in this very post. yet, when a man, who always enters these threads, merely to throw a jab, and dismiss or insult the feminist on the board, makes a statement that a hof member simply needs to be laid, that is not worthy of "merely disagreeing", we clearly get what the intent is. we are to going to nicely discuss. we know it is a waste of time. and jury will allow to stand... i have my own theory on that. that is what is tiring to the point of enough, done.

we women have been told often, consistently, regularly that if we only spoke nicely, gently, stroking ego, we would accomplish more. do you know how many men immediately say.... i am angry, hateful, ect.. when there is nothing in a post to suggest that? it is merely used to dismiss what i say. at the point of someone on the net telling me my emotional position, i stop listening. why take that person seriously. he/she are clueless and it is an ignorant manner to interact.

we cannot get the "tone" right enough for many. we cannot have conversation about a lot of issues that meets the uneducated, unaware, dismissive level of importance. is the cover stupid ass shit? ya. not my battle but, i am aware it is not the surface argument we never get past, and that the more important conversation that effects all of us in this society is way beyond a simple cover to sell magazines.

Do you think the Ferguson police handled the protests well? Or Israel and Gaza? Meeting anger with anger? Force with force? Aggression leads to aggression. It only 'feeds' the trolls when you respond to the insults.


um. wrong side here. we are not the oppressor as you positioned women, but the oppressed. the correct analogy would be... do you think the anger of the protesters in fergusen over the killing of a black young man, ANOTHER killing of a young black man, was worth getting angry about? do you think it was effective?

ya. i do.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #262)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:23 AM

271. That's a lot to reply to, but here we go.

First, I stand corrected, that was indeed how I interpreted what you wrote, not what you meant - now that you've expanded upon it a lot more, I understand much more what you actually meant the first time around. So better that I had specifically said, something along the lines of 'Here is what I get from what you wrote' rather than 'what you said', which was a lazy way for me to try and restate what you were trying to transmit to me.

'We women have been told, consistently, regularly...' Why? From whom? "it is merely used to dismiss what i say."

Not from me it isn't. From me, it's coming directly from my own observations of how I actually get my own points across far more easily, and with greater force when I speak respectfully, without anger or sarcasm. And from my nursing textbooks on dealing with difficult patients, and generally improving 'therapeutic communication'. Every single day in a clinical setting, you're dealing with scared people, with angry people, with ignorant people. People who don't want to do what you need them to, even what's good for them. Responding with negative emotions only escalates situations and leads to greater discord, and will eventually get you fired.

And, I think if you reread my comments, you won't find the words 'gently', 'nicely' or 'stroking egos'. There's a difference between 'coddling' ignorance, and injecting negative emotions into your messages.

Finally, I wasn't specifically trying to choose situations with 'oppressor' and 'oppressed' for my examples - again, I was lazy enough to simply grab off easy and recent examples of conflict. If you want to flip the sides around, that's fine.

Do I think it 'was worth it'? I think we have yet to see if it was. Is there going to be any real change that comes out of it? Or will it be just fade back into the status quo? We saw a lot of anger after Trayvon Martin, and nothing changed. We saw a LOT of anger after Newtown, and guess what? Nothing really changed. More 'pro-gun' laws were passed in the wake of the Newtown Massacre than 'anti-gun' laws.

So will what happened in Ferguson actually change anything? Has it been 'effective'? The polls don't seem to be showing any real change. I don't know, but if it does, it will be because of the work of people who know how to harness their anger, like Reverend Sharpton.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #271)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:33 AM

276. you are a man. in the feminst circle, one of the things we would bring to your awareness that as a

 

man, especially a white man you sit in a privilege that allows you to be heard in your calm manner. and if you were to speak in a more aggressive manner? that would be alright too, cause as a man, that is simply innately who you are and you are being a good leader. yes.... you will find that speaking in a calm manner will gain more attention.

now, a couple things.

as a woman, i am told i am hysterical, when there is no hysterical there. i am told that i pulled out a fainting couch for merely making the statements i did. people would be all over that post to you, stating what a manhater i am, how angry and hysterical i am. when there is nothing there.

i have had times when talking to a poster, and tell him three or four time my perspective and i am insulted. a man steps in and uses my exact words. the poster then backs down and says.... oh, so reasonable and your "tone" was respectful. now i get it.

this has happened regularly, though not often. the man and i will sit and look at each other and say, ya.... perfect example of our patriarchy.

that is why i do not buy the whole tone issue. there are certain people that will characterize and dismiss not cause it is valid, but cause they cannot argue the issue.

i doubt that you have had the same experience as a man, that i have as a woman, interacting with men.

a fun experiment to experience what we women do. go into a discussion forum, use a woman name, present yourself as a woman, and see the response to you

the same things you say now, that you say is well received, and the difference in the reaction to you cause the person thinks you are a woman.

i have been called frigid, my old uterus would never produce two boys, anti sex, sex negative, manhater (a fav), and so many many other nasty names. yet. on du, we are told we should be more nice.

personally, i think i am damn nice.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #276)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:45 AM

279. Actually, I use female names in MMOs all the time.

About half and half of my characters. And I've seen a dramatic shift over the years in how those characters have been treated. In the 90s, my characters got a lot more sexual suggestions, or treated like they needed 'help'. In the last decade, they've largely been treated neutrally by other players, who are more focused on the game, and also seem to be older on average.

And although I hear other people think 'aggressive' men are 'good leaders', I tend to think they're just asses. A boss who is 'aggressive' is not a good boss, no matter what their gender. So if you switched out a female who acted like that male...she'd still be an ass to me, not hysterical.

But yes, I understand a lot of people do still buy into the decades-old (centuries-old?) ignorant stereotypes. And the trolls are going to be dismissive no matter what the tone. And again, I'm not asking you or suggesting to you that you be 'nice'. Just saying I think you hand the haters fewer chances to sway the merely ignorant when you respond to them in kind.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #279)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:52 AM

281. And the trolls are going to be dismissive no matter what the tone.

 

and it is not all. it is not most. there are only a handful in sight, much more in jury service, unseen.

i agree. we probably agree on most of it.

and thanks for the story of your experience and how you see it. i think you are right about the difference of then and now. and i think a lot of it would be thru awareness alone. and i think that was the purpose of the comic strip thread. nothing more.

thanks for the conversation. it was a good roll.

i am good with my position, reputation, how people perceive me on du. cause really. that is not in my control. i walk with integrity. a person can see it. or not see it. has nothing to do with me.

thanks

you have a good day.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #255)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:08 AM

265. oh. like the 10th time i was kicked off. this one? a poster has a sarcastic tag in his sig

 

he made a comment in support of a misogynist. i called out the misogynist he was supporting, giving examples of his misogyny. both the alerter, and the only jury comment that i should have realized that poster was being sarcastic. cause he had sarcasm in his post. that is in every one of his posts. because it is in his damn sig line. cute... huh?

the hide before that that got me kicked off was cause i used the word bullshit, as in, bullshit argument. the hide was literally for using the word bullshit.

personally, i think i have been damn patient with du. i was gonna walk myself after this last hide. until i read the same ole men jumping up and down on their tippy toes cause redq had enough.

that is the purpose and intent on creating an hostile environment for women, that we have been fighting since implementing the new and improved du.

i am the baddest of the bad... me.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #265)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:31 AM

274. I certainly don't think you are.

'the baddest of the bad'.

I think you are frustrated enough to put more of your anger into posts than I think is helpful for your own goals, especially since it gives exactly that sort of troll the ability to silence you. You're handing them the tools they need to shut down your voice entirely.

Laws, or on blogs, rules, aren't really about justice, and certainly not about fairness. And they will be used to enforce the status quo. Those who want to create change have to be even more careful in how they act to avoid falling foul of them. And it's not about being 'kind', or 'gentle'. It's about simply making sure you maintain your ability to keep your overall message heard.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #274)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:44 AM

278. see. here is the thing. once again, you are defining my emotional state. let me ask

 

when a poster cheers flynt. standing with flynt. in a thread cheering porn. what would you expect as a response? a nice sugar coated sweetness of "pretty woman" wrapped in a bow not to offend so it is easily digested by those defending? or reality.

a thread cheering prostitution and porn is good. women are not allowed to not only not be offended, but they are not even allowed to call it out to be good liberals and all, and not a prude, frigid, anti sex. this is the position i am working from. and in giving the example of why flynt is a misogynist ass.... one would have to state what he has done and said. like. putting women in a meatgrinder.

now. that is simply a factual statement. yet.... another would say , you are so angry. not really. i am stating a fact. has nothing to do with my emotional state.

you will not find me defining anothers emotional position. i merely made a statement. no anger involved. you defined me as angry. that is not my reality. what i was, was blunt.

what i am often, is blunt. i do not do the tipy toe nicety to make it more easily digested. i do give facts. and when talking about a misogynist, or an industry of degrading women, why would one insist i sugar coat it to make it more easily digestible? totally defanging my argument. it is the very degradation i discribe that is the very issue we are talking about.

do i feel angry here and now?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #278)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:56 AM

283. Do you feel angry here and now?

No. But how people 'define your emotional state' in a text based messaging system depends largely on your choice of words and how you state things. When you say something like 'Bullshit' as per your earlier example, people tend to interpret that as anger.

Why would one insist i sugar coat it to make it more easily digestible?


Once again, I'm not insisting on anything. I'm offering up suggestions for ways I think might help you get your message across to people like ME, especially me of a decade or two back. Men, who have not lived the same experiences as you.

Do you want your messages digested? What is your actual goal in posting? Are you merely venting? Throwing words out into the vacuum for their own sake? Or would you actually like men who are blind to the problems created by pornography and prostitution to 'digest' your words and just maybe start changing how they think about them? Who is the target audience for your message? And what will allow you to most effectively get your message not only across to them, but allow them to actually think about what you're saying, and change what they believe?

When you talk to a child, who is ignorant, do you jump right in and start teaching them calculus? Or do you 'sugar coat' it by starting with addition and subtraction?


(Btw, I have to leave the house for a while, so I'm not going to be responding to other comments for probably a few hours.)

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #283)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:18 AM

286. firstly, i do not go on the presumption these men are ignorant, having listened to them for a decade

 

i can easily seen when one is interested in conversation and i adapt my message to the poster. especially the well known posters that tell me i simply need to be laid, or put me up against the ugliest picture of dworkin, suggesting i am saying what i do cause i am just so ugly, or cause i do not like sex.

these are regular, long time posters on du.

you again, attributed in inaccurate portrayal of "venting". once again, defining my message. again, i will suggest, that any poster can read this, and see i am merely "venting" when in reality i am having a very serious conversation, hoping to respectfully convey a message that is important to me.

what i know, is i have NO power in influencing how others want to perceive me.

as i said. i have had over a decade of messages from people that do hear what i am saying. i seldom post to simply the one i reply to. i often post to those simply reading and lurking or a feel of a thread.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #274)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 10:48 AM

280. and... why shouldnt i get angry with a man that tells me i need to get laid? why am i not allowed.

 

are we now hiding posts simply cause we are angry? when the content meets rules, when factual, cause i am angry, we validate a hide? cause i gotta tell you, that is kinda like shifting the responsibility of integrity and honesty away from the juror. not only must i watch what i say, i must also hide what i feel in order not to get a hide.

meh.

not worth it. truly. obviously.

i got a hide because someone had a sarcasm tag in his sig line.

line up the right jury, and only takes four, and i will get the hide. think how many times the right jury was not lined up. how many of my posts to you have already been alerted on. and passed jury. all in the odds.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #280)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:47 AM

295. again, truth.

the *getting laid thing* is used by women on this site, too.

That is a double whammy when that happens.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #295)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:26 PM

316. "the *getting laid thing* is used by women on this site, too. " yes.

 

and there are all kinds of language that let us know, that is what a poster is saying to us. like. sex positive/negative. we are thinking adults. we know what we are doing. when we call it out. we are the meanies. my father in law. almost two decades. the many family gatherings that i did, because i wanted that for my boys and what my husband needs/wants. would tell me one, two, three sexist joke eveyr visit. every visit for almost two decades. in front of a crowd. always. hmmmmm. lol. passive aggressive. all these educated, diverse, liberal family would look the other way. he would position himself, look me in the eye and tell me the joke.

everyone knew.

the game though. was in if i said something and if i did not. i knew the not losing was in being quiet. now winning by any means. but not losing. the losing was.... even in respect, and nice, and coddle, and gentle (and rarely implemented, only in cases of particularly bad, in front of my young boys. it was more important for me to teach my boys, that it was not allowed, and i as a woman was not allowed to be insulted without me saying). if i said no, at all/in anyway, i was the bad guy.

this is a family of smart. but, it was more important to protect/allow father. that is what i as a feminist call out. and it is not what i grew up with. they also found out they had two gay sons. and walked from the catholic church and no longer tell gay jokes. that would be wrong. they also found out a couple decades ago, FIL has black blood. from new orleans. a sister that was denied an education. there was a large age spread and he did not know she was denied education. she changed her birth certificate. she was defined as lack. we do not tell black jokes any more, either. (not we in me. as a whole by allowing even) i am not the one to allow. in all these things. i have consistently not allowed. and that makes me the bad guy. it shuts me up also. then, i am done.

meh

lol. gotta go.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #316)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:31 PM

322. Yes. to all of that, especially this =

but, it was more important to protect/allow father.


that is Patriarchy in a nutshell.

Thanks.

Nice to see you back on the board again.

Sorry, that it has to be in redqueen's Bye Thread.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #322)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:37 PM

325. it is not a goodbye thread to me. it is a reflective thread, allowed by her OP.

 

allowing us to look at what we create. and whether it is worth it. i still think it is worth it. i think she may feel the same. and i hope, beyond hope, bigtree does also. cause, while i was away, i was sittin with him in many of his OP. his voice matters.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #325)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:43 PM

328. I hope you are right in both cases. I appreciate both of them and their input and contributions

to this site.

Like someone else said - The signal to noise ratio just went way down.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #265)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:17 PM

352. *hug*

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #352)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:18 PM

353. ya, that. exactly. thank you for participating and being my example. perfectly

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #255)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:53 PM

370. Fuck the tone argument.

 

For crying out loud. You must have something better than that.

I am so fucking sick and goddamn tired of this bullshit. Be polite little ladies and surely that will get our attention.

Fuck. That. Noise.

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Response to JTFrog (Reply #370)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:57 PM

373. fug the tone... lmfugginao. lol. i hear ya sistah.... actually, if one listens well,

 

my tone... is very harmonious. good to see you.

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Response to JTFrog (Reply #370)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:21 PM

384. Does it work for you in any other relationship in your life?

Do you interact with coworkers with negative emotions? Relatives? Teachers or students?

Does it work well? I find you get out of any relationship what you put into it, or worse. Rarely do you get better.

Trolls will be trolls, no matter what, but you're going to turn off just regular people as well when they see lots of 'chip on the shoulder' posts.

I don't ask 'women' to be polite. I point out that being polite helps every single human being, male or female, to get their particular messaging across.

You don't win voters for your candidate by telling them that they're stupid, or converts to any mindset by insulting people.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #384)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:34 PM

393. Let me ask you this =

Do you address your coworkers in a passive-aggressive, condescending, snide tone and, does it work for you ?

You see, the tone argument works both ways.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #393)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:38 PM

397. No, nor am I using such a tone here.

It's interesting that's that's how you interpreted what I was saying. I'm not trying to be snide or sarcastic in the least, and certainly not 'passive-aggressive'. I'm often told I come across as too 'stuffy', which, if people are looking to be offended, could come across as condescending, I suppose.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #397)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:41 PM

398. isnt it constantly condescending telling women we must watch our tone and the subject we address

 

in order to be effective and taken seriously, heard, when you personally are not in the experience?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #398)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:54 PM

403. I'm not 'telling women' anything.

I'm suggesting to human beings that in both my anecdotal experiences and in the classes in communication for nurses that I have gone through (with textbooks written by women, in classes taught by women), people respond better to more professional communications than they do to accusatory or insulting ones.

And I am 'personally in the experience' of being part of the audience to whom you're communicating. I don't have the experience of seeing how well such 'tones' work between women, but I certainly have the experience of seeing how well various types of communications are viewed by males. If I wanted to sell a product to a particular group of people, I would test my marketing messages on groups who were composed of members of that group. If you want to get a message across to men, then just maybe you might actually try and ask a few men how well the message is getting across, and which message phrasing works best. If you want to get a message about racism across to white people, you would test your messaging with a white focus group. I can't simply go into a group of non-nurses and use the same language and phrasing I would use when talking with other nurses about a disease process. I have to fit my message to the audience to be best understood. and that's not something that's specific to 'women' or 'men' or any other group. It's a universal in messaging, not tied to the topic under discussion, whether it's misogyny, racism, or even raspberry cane grafting or diabetes.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #403)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:02 PM

405. you are not telling but suggest... women. no. it is not human beings. it feels to me that what

 

not happening, is you listening. i think that is one of the things that piss men off so much. i listen. no only speak. but listen. i am suggesting... that you are not listening.

the poster you commented to stayed quiet about personal experience for a lifetime. when she finally came out, said it out loud, there were people that called her a liar. she has been told often that she will be heard, if only.... but. thru personal experience she knows that is not true. people will call her a liar, in a very real personal experience, as an insult, to be mean and hurtful. and she knows that people use tone.... as most people recognize and certainly feminists, is merely a ploy from many, to shut women up.

and that men will often pretend to be on our side, support us, if only.... we adjust our tone.

seeing how we all so often walk this path would suggest... we have experiences you do not.

right?

btw. being informed. know the history knowing her experience. i suggest she fuggin speaks out however she feels the need to speak out. and i will respect her for it. each. and. every. time.

i guess that is the difference of knowing and not. listening and not.

you really are fine tuning my argument, so i do appreciate the civility in it. whether we agree or not.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #405)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:19 PM

406. I am indeed listening as well.

And I also support you in speaking up. My support is not based on your 'tone'. In fact, my support is not based on you personally, at all, or any particular individual. My point is simply that you can more effectively message with certain changes to how you message. I'm not going to change how I feel about the greater sexism in society based upon your tone at all. Nor am I going to tell you that there won't be trolls who simply call you (or her, or whoever) a liar outright, no matter what your 'tone' is. There will. But there are also 'waffly' people, who can be turned one way or another by tone. How do I know? I am one. I didn't at first believe in 'white privilege', but thanks to people on Daily Kos who took the time to treat me with respect, despite my ignorance, who walked me through from the most basic concepts to more complex ones, I evolved into a better ally. Not a great one, but I keep trying. And that same lesson carries over across other fights. Some people are more open, some are less. And some will respond to what they see. If they see reason, they'll be open to being reasoned with.

Some. Not all. Like I said, some will always be hostile and trollish, and no change in 'tone' will change that. But it seems to me that larger societal change will come more quickly, the more of the 'waffly' people you can convince.

If you don't agree, you don't agree. And that's your choice, and I'm listening to you when you tell me why you feel I'm wrong.

And whether you feel I'm 'on your side' or 'pretending to be on your side' or 'not listening' has nothing to do with either your tone, or my continued feeling that patriarchy is harmful to both men and women. It may keep me from interacting as much with the subject on DU, but I try not to let negative individual interactions negatively impact my feelings about larger issues.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #406)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:22 PM

407. My point is simply that you can more effectively message with certain changes to how you message.

 

i disagree. i guess that is what we are bottom lining. i disagree. having experienced it a lifetime, and lived, i disagree. i have tried to articulate it in a number of ways, why your suggestion is not correct.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #407)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:27 PM

408. Which is fine.

You have as much right to disagree as anyone else. We disagree, and neither of us is injured by the fact that we disagree on a given messaging strategy.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #408)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:29 PM

409. agreed. lol. nt

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #397)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:44 PM

400. Actually, No ... to me, You do Not Come off that way. However, others on here do and

then act surprised when they get pushback on it. When they are questioned about the sincerity of their post.

Sarcasm and Sincerity are both sometimes hard to convey on a message board.

I actually deal better with the stuffy and pompous because I can detect the sincerity and the fact that the person is trying to use their best manners.

Sometimes, it takes watching a poster and their replies before I can get the vibe for the TRUTH of HOW they are saying something which (to Me) is just about as important as WHAT they are saying.

saying things with love can excuse almost any word ... For me.

nice chatting with you, Erich
gotta run. ciao!

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #400)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:57 PM

404. Just checking.

Actually, thinking back, 'pompous' is indeed one of the adjectives I've gotten tossed at me more often. I think it rubs off on you when you spend too much time in school. I fall into the same sorts of cadences I learned from scores of professors.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #404)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:30 PM

410. As a feminist, and a woman on this board, I appreciate your efforts. nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #410)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:33 PM

412. as do i. hence, a long and productive conversation and exchange of ideas.

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #412)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:39 PM

415. I hope you take his advice to heart. nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #415)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:41 PM

417. your sincerity with no agenda is so very clear. all one would have to do is read my position,

 

from all of my replies, to know how i feel.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #417)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:46 PM

419. now eric. for clarity. this is what i am talking about. Ms and i are talking about a whole lot

 

of other stuff in these very few exchanges. it is an example of what i speak, being informed, following posters over the years, we talk in a short hand. what may not be clear to one person, is absolutely clear to Ms and i. there is a reason she jumped onto your post, saying what she did, in this thread. it really had nothing to do with you, though.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #417)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:48 PM

420. I dislike discerning 'feelings' from people's posts. Since, though, you have invited me to

 

do so, I will only note that you seem to be feeling a bit hostile to some very excellent and well-thought out advice.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #420)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:50 PM

422. you discerned, incorrectly. i prefer to stick to not discerning, especially as i hate it so....

 

it leads to being inevitably wrong. as you would note, in my posts, that exactly addresses this sort of "discerning".

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #422)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:55 PM

425. Well...you cannot have it both ways. You cannot invite people to discern, and then tell them they

 

should not.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #425)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:57 PM

427. yes, Ms. i can say, i really really can say, that you are not correct how you discerned. one would

 

think that would be enough, you listening.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #427)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 04:02 PM

428. Why not just say how you feel if you think it important to the discussion, rather than asking people

 

to discern your feelings?

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #428)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 04:14 PM

430. you made a guess. i stated you were wrong. that should e enough. but, it is not. not for you.

 

i am not sure what you are referring back to, but i really do not care and am not going to waste my time backtracjing, seeing how i clearly corrected you assumption and misstatement.

you Ms, have a good day.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #430)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 04:16 PM

432. Let's not be coy here, SB. If what you feel is important to the conversation, why not just state

 

it?

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #432)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 04:25 PM

433. no coy Ms. as a matter of fact, the complete opposite. you are holding onto something tight,

 

that i am not gonna dig back to figure out wtf you are talking about. i do not know why.... me stating a fact, not remembering or caring what you are talking about, is coy. there is nothing coy.... in my statement. see how one is continually wrong with a guess? hence, why i do not do it.

if you want me to address, you go back, copy, paste and link, so i can see what sparked your interest. i simply do not care enough to take the time to try and figure out your "gotcha"

steppin out the door. as we speak.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #26)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 08:38 AM

236. P.S. The drawing of Spiderwoman's buttocks may be a reason to stop buying comics, not

a reason to leave DU. I don't know redqueen very well, but enough to know she would not cut off DU's nose to spite a comic book's face, so to speak.

If redqueen is leaving DU, I suspect it is because she feels she encountered persistent sexism (or persistence of something else she did not want) from DU posters and not because of the drawing.

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Response to merrily (Reply #236)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:08 AM

242. I think people believe

it was 'the straw that broke the camel's back'.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #242)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:13 AM

244. Yes, but the posts on the thread, not the drawing itself.

And maybe also the way that alerts get treated by jurors and/or the admins. What am I trying to say is, her reason for DU has to be the events at DU, not the cartoonist's angle.

I guess I should go find the drawing and the thread before I say any more. But first, I want to finish this one.

So many DU intrigues, so little time.

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Response to merrily (Reply #244)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:24 AM

247. Correct. nt

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Response to merrily (Reply #244)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:31 AM

249. it isnt about a stupid ass (ya) drawing on a cover meant to be controversial for $. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #249)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:34 AM

252. Agree--and I have not even seen the drawing yet.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #249)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:49 PM

332. Nobody buys comic books because of what's on the cover.

 

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Response to Iron Man (Reply #332)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:58 PM

340. way to mess the point dude. lol. of course not. and it has been proven. and yet, pr firms,

 

advertisers, media and entertainment continue to think that is the only way to get a sale. hence, us discussing the issue so people get it. you will find many that on that thread that state, the IS the reason as a selling point. argue with them. not me.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #6)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:00 PM

63. Jury Results: 6-1 to keep

 


On Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:47 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Is this in some way related to Spiderwoman's buttocks? (nt)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5450590

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

It could be, and it's rude to bring this up, since redqueen has been outspoken about this & other women's issues on DU. This post is insensitive to redqueen's concerns about DU's attitude towards women.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:59 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There are many problems with this alert. The first is, the question makes sense. It is a recent conflagration that redqueen was in the middle of that could conceivably have caused her to want to leave. The second is, its not over the top or an attack. You can't wish a comment into the hide-able category because you don't like it.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There is absolutely no reason to "alert" on this. People need to grow up.
H2O Man
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't think this is worthy of a hide.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster made it clear their point was serious, not meant to be hurtful.

Try to be adults with the alert button.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #63)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:30 PM

82. The jury system should be done away with. If it is a threat the admins should take it down.

If not, let the words fly.

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Response to EEO (Reply #82)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:57 PM

100. Ever taken a look at the comments on sites like Youtube? (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #100)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:07 PM

111. Oy, what a sewer that is.

 

Lots of newspaper sites, too. Ugh.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #100)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:10 PM

114. I have. A free exchange of ideas is messy. Is that Adams in your avatar?

I find that amusing. I assume you know about the Alien and Sedition Acts? Among other things, Federalists made it illegal to criticize the federal government, and many liberals around DU want to do the same when it comes to their sacred cows. You cannot profess to be a liberal and tout how much you support civil rights then in the same breath limit speech that is non-threatening because it offends your sensibilities.

Feel free to bitch about this post and/or send it to the joke of a jury system.

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Response to EEO (Reply #114)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:15 PM

119. I'm pretty sure that John and Abigail Adams would not allow people to spew racism in their house.

Which is very different, of course, from wanting people to be prosecuted for expressing such opinions.

I would find it appalling if someone was criminally prosecuted for expressing abhorrent views on the internet. But people like the owners of DU are free to run their websites how they wish.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #119)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:49 AM

257. I encourage you to investigate John Adams' words on Crispus Attucks. n/t

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Response to EEO (Reply #114)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 04:14 AM

211. The "free exchange" sites actually have no exchange

They are filled with spam, porn links, racism, homophobia, and misogyny. Look at the Yahoo groups, for example. There is no discussion for that reason. That is what you are advocating. There are plenty of places you can get your fill of that. DU is not supposed to be one of them. At any rate, the reason the administrators won't abolish the jury system is not the level of hides but because it frees up their time. That ship has sailed. The jury system allows far more right-wing hate speech than existed under the system of moderators, and that is usually what people mean when they talk about free speech. I've seen that shit a million times. Free speech requires not only free expression of homophobia, racism, and misogyny, it requires censoring and banning anyone critical of such views.

You agreed to TOS when you signed up a whole three months ago. The jury system had been effect three years at that point. If you didn't want to abide by that, you shouldn't have made an account. Now you are pissed off there isn't enough "freedom" to keep you happy. Too bad. There are plenty of places you can go for that. Try Discussionist. While they have juries, there is plenty of contempt for women, LGBT Americans, and people of color. Or there is always Yahoo or Stormfront. There are plenty of places you can go to express what you feel you can't say here.

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Response to EEO (Reply #114)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:32 AM

250. The Alien and Sedition Acts did not last long, and Federalists were not liberals, but

what is your point in bringing that up here?

It's 2014 and no poster seems in danger of being tried for treason this week. And if they are, what does that have to do with redqueen's departure?

Please excuse my candor, but you don't seem very observant or precise. DU is not made up solely of liberals. Neither is the Democratic Party. At DU are conservadems, like Baucus, aka Pub Lites, center right Dems, center left Dems, liberals and socialists, among others.

Some at DU criticize only Republicans. Those at DU who are more left of center criticize both the Democratic and the Republican sides of government.

Either way, you don't get posts hidden at DU just for criticizing government. Being a center left Democrat who has been disappointed by Obama and has said so many times on DU, I can attest to that.

I am not saying the jury system is perfect, but your comments are not consistent with my DU experience or observations.

Please link me to a post that you think got hidden by liberal DUers solely because it criticized a "sacred cow" of a liberal.



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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #100)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 09:17 AM

245. And? No one, including the board owner, seems to want to see DU looking like You Tube comments.

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Response to merrily (Reply #245)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:52 AM

296. we have sunk very low if that is our measure of discourse here ... that we compare ourselves

to YouTube comments and pride ourselves on being better. and only, not by much ... wow.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #296)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 11:58 AM

301. I don't think that we have sunk that low. That is why I asked why You Tube is even relevant to bring

the You Tube comments section into a discussion of how DUers should post. If that's what someone considers any kind of posting standard, maybe he or she should be posting at You Tube instead.

Apparently, we have sent at least two long time DUers, clearly not RW trolls, running away from DU in the last couple of days. I am still trying to find out why. But I bet it's NOT because DU needs lower standards.

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Response to merrily (Reply #301)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:07 PM

307. I agree with you but, evidently someone else thought YouTube was relevant in comparison to DU3

and That is WHY they brought up YouTube and evidently They have concluded that we are better than YouTube so, everything here is just Hunky Dory.

because Why?

Because we are better than YouTube?

that is their reasoning. Not Mine.

I am one of those people that think there is always room for improvement and the strive toward perfection.

That YouTube is even entered the discussion gives me pause to reflect.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #63)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 08:49 PM

166. Call out to H2O man:

 

Putting a name on your jury service is awesome. If I ever get jury service back I might do the same.

As yet I am forbidden because I called ebola deniers ignorent and stupid. So I AM an asshole.

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #166)


Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #299)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:54 PM

338. ?

 

What are you talking about?

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #338)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:56 PM

339. I am deleting. sorry. n/t

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:31 PM

9. What?

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:32 PM

10. There may not be much to stay here for...

... anymore. Looks to me like we've been divided and conquered. Gonna miss you redqueen. Take care and be happy. I hope it was nothing I had a part in. If so, I wish you would PM me and tell me off.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)


Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:33 PM

12. well

fark.



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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:34 PM

13. Peace

 

Best wishes

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:41 PM

14. Perhaps

 

Perhaps all these DU people leaving should get together and start their own website. If they are leaving because of health reasons or job, family, type trouble, I can get completely behind them, but if they are leaving because things on this site are leaning right or not progressive enough, or not happy news all the time, then I can't get behind that. That's what we fight for, that's what our typed, written words are for. Are most of the leaving DU'ers leaving for that reason? Health, family, job issues, or just political issues? I hope not political, but if health etc, then please stay away, get better and come back.

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Response to rtracey (Reply #14)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:47 PM

18. Well I think she is leaving because of the rampant Misogyny women face here every day.

 

It's getting worse by the day.

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Response to trumad (Reply #18)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:04 PM

28. At least these goodbyes are not always forever.

In fact 9 out of 10 tend not to hold up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125533830

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #28)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:09 PM

33. Sorta like Mark Twain said about smoking--"It's easy to quit.

I've done it thousands of times."

I think Pitt may hold the record for DU quits, though.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #33)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:10 PM

35. I was thinking "you can check out anytime you like....." (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #35)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:32 PM

84. Lol

But they'll never leave!

No matter who it is.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #84)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:40 PM

88. Pro wrestlers, boxers, classic rock bands, and DUers

 

always come back. I was gone for more than a year and just came back a month or so ago after thinking I wouldn't return.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #33)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 08:14 AM

226. is Pitt currently in a "quit"? there is a god

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #28)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:11 PM

36. Nine out of ten you're aware of, or nine out of ten with unbiased sources to validate the premise?

Nine out of ten you're aware of, or nine out of ten with unbiased sources to validate a rather shaky (at best) premise?

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #36)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:14 PM

39. Jeez, talk about overkill on an off-the-cuff remark!

9 out of 10 times people say something like that, they're just using a colloquial expression.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #39)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:55 PM

61. However, 10 out

of every nine times I say something like that, I mean it.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #39)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:28 PM

81. A petulant off-the-cuff remark would be more accurate...

A petulant off-the-cuff remark would be more accurate... hence, the overkill.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #28)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:18 PM

76. True dat.

When I get annoyed here, I just leave.

Come back when I feel like it.

It's a damn internet site for crying out loud.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #76)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:23 PM

124. agreed

 

I totally agree with you.....it's just an internet site. If someone is sick, or job loss, or family issues and want to convey this to their friends here, so be it, but to say I'm quitting because of or trying to prove a political stance, well, are they hurting us for leaving or are they hurting themselves for leaving.....ITS JUST AN INTERNET SITE..

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Response to trumad (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:01 AM

180. What post triggered it? Nt

 

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Response to trumad (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 08:09 AM

224. Exactly right, Trumad

And it IS getting worse by the day.

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Response to trumad (Reply #18)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:03 PM

303. There's no misogyny on DU.

Last edited Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:01 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm told that every time I mention it. No racism either. Also, no Randian politics.
It's all good here.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #303)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:57 PM

374. And, we just have our hair on fire...

Or, we're wearing our tinfoil hats...

Or, we have our panties in a bunch...

(I understand that many of us are finding these derisive, condescending types tiresome.)

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:41 PM

15. Auwe!

 

No translation necessary.

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #15)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:30 PM

50. Auwe Kaimuki!

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Response to panader0 (Reply #50)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:32 PM

51. I assume Kaimuki has another meaning

 

besides the neighborhood in Honolulu that is home to Leonard's malassadas and the world's largest Safeway.

edit: This is confusing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaimuki,_Hawaii#History

Kaimukī is an ancient Hawaiian name. Its name comes from Ka imu kī meaning "The ti root oven" in the Hawaiian language. The area was known for the many ovens used to bake kī Cordyline fruticosa, or ti roots, into a sweet food similar to candy.


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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:43 PM

16. Reading your posts have made me a better person.

 

Reading your posts have made me a better woman. Reading your posts have changed how I view things.

I can only say that about two people on this board. You are clearly you are one of them.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #16)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:57 AM

189. +1 nt

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #16)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:04 PM

305. Me too. I"ve learned a lot from RQ

and I will miss her a great deal.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:44 PM

17. I don't believe you. See you later, I'm sure.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #17)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:55 PM

23. You have to say you are leaving so you can say "I'm Back!"

 

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #23)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:02 PM

108. Oh my.

Peeps should just take a break if needed.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #17)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:58 PM

24. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you: Exhibit A.

You stay classy.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:48 PM

19. Recognize what the racism, misogyny, and homophobia for what it is.

The little white man-boys are terrified.

I'm certain you won't be silenced, you are merely moving on to other fronts.

Take care.

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Response to hunter (Reply #19)


Response to hunter (Reply #19)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 11:51 PM

176. Without doubt, your post is one of the most racist, Misandric, and rude posts I've ever seen here

Ranks right up there with 'All them black folk love they watermelons and fried chicken'.

Incredible.

I guess them white man-boys have it coming, eh?

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Response to Saboburns (Reply #176)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 05:14 AM

213. Feeling opressed?

Must be difficult with the whole world attacking and making life hard for little white men that anytime someone comments on white man-boys it is hurtful, offensive and reminds you how hard life is for white guys?

I am a white guy, but tell you what when you are a minority and the system you live in has you at a significant disadvantage due to history and stereotypes than maybe your offense can be taken seriously. Until then may I remind you this isn't free republic and you are expected to understand the intricacies of the post you were so "offended" by.

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Response to Saboburns (Reply #176)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:16 PM

311. Look at that. You found a place on du to use your favorite phrase....

 

in a way that won't have consequences. How cute.

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Response to Saboburns (Reply #176)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:28 PM

319. Have what coming?

Suffering the horror of having their privilege pointed out? Dastardly!

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Response to cyberswede (Reply #319)

Sun Aug 31, 2014, 06:47 AM

556. That choice of words does strike me as a bit... paranoid... n/t

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 01:51 PM

21. damn.

Be well redqueen.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:01 PM

25. DU needs a GBCW forum...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #25)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 03:54 PM

96. Truly. That would be great

or we could all post GBCW threads at once!

I have nothing against either goodbye poster of today, but why does it have to be announced when one leaves?

Curious

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #25)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 11:48 PM

175. !

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:03 PM

27. Oh no.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:05 PM

29. Have I missed something? Seems a lot of people are leaving......why ????? nt

 

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Response to clarice (Reply #29)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:10 PM

34. Kids are going back to school this week

 

You haven't noticed the flashing yellow lights are back in operation? Oh, and everyone is back to work now from taking vacations with their kids the past couple weeks. Parking lot back to full capacity!


As an aside-

I can't get the damn Silence of the Lambs movie out of my head everytime I see your handle

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Response to clarice (Reply #29)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:19 PM

40. Some of us will now be spending more time on campaigns and GOTV.




And regretably there will be less time for DU.



(And I can't speak for anyone else or their OPs)


Seeya redqueen. Make it a quick break.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:05 PM

30. Another good one lost. Peace redqueen, you'll be missed.

 

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:06 PM

31. You take care too.

More and more, DU is becoming irrelevant. It's so filled with little white men that refuse to accept progressive ideals, the site is pretty much destroyed. I have usually had a tab open on DU since 2001, but increasingly, I don't bother.

And as long as the angry white men and those who want to curry their favor get to disrupt every serious discussion, derail every good thread, DU will lose its soul.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #31)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 05:41 PM

139. with white men and the dozen sock accounts they set up to agree with themselves

ugh.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #139)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 05:43 PM

140. Hmm...

 

I only know of one person who was caught red-handed with a sock account, yet is somehow still allowed to be here... and it wasn't a white man, by any stretch.

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #140)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:32 PM

411. Why no, no it wasn't. nt

 

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #140)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:41 PM

416. you were on MIRT and never saw any others?

and yet they have never denied it and admins KNOW and have allowed the original account to remain a member in good standing.

but you keep on keeping on, that beast may win a race yet.


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Response to Kali (Reply #416)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:49 PM

421. Reading is fundamental...

 


I only know of one person who was caught red-handed with a sock account, yet is somehow still allowed to be here...


Indeed, I did see many socks show up during my time on MIRT. Including a few who were vociferously defended by your pals. But they were all given the boot they had so richly deserved. Interestingly enough, they were not white males either.

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #421)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 06:20 PM

441. I am sure we have all defended a troll, sock, or zombie at one time or another...

even me. my point was the horse isn't going to go anywhere. everybody who would care knows. and they don't care.



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Response to Kali (Reply #441)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 06:31 PM

442. Defending trolls and zombies is one thing...

 

Especially when the charges of homophobia are laughable at best. Going off-site and offering advice on how to get around IP checks, well that's a different kind of duckie altogether.

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Response to opiate69 (Reply #442)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 06:36 PM

443. some people are obsessed with DU, others are obsessed with them

the internets are an interesting universe

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #31)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 07:38 PM

155. It's nice to see someone that actually understands what the problem is.

I can't tell what's worse -- the needless snark directed at the OP or the jaw dropingly clueless comments that it's the "Third Way" that's driven so many people from DU.

No, it has nothing to do with the (not so) casual racism, the open misogny and the blatant dismissal of everyone's problems or concerns unless you're a white man. No, that's not part of the problem at all.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #31)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 08:18 PM

162. Agreed. But don't think they aren't celebrating this, either.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 02:08 PM

32. I'm sorry you had to deal with so much crap here.

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Response to bullwinkle428 (Reply #32)

Wed Aug 27, 2014, 04:41 PM

131. She gave as much crap as she got.

 

Exhibited too little of the tolerance that she would have liked from others.
There are misogynists here and there are also men who disagreed with her on some things but were not close to misogynists. All got the same treatment: "If you're not a woman, you can't understand anything on the subject being discussed".

And yes, Goddammit, I'm a feminist, whether you care to believe me or accept my use of the term or not.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #131)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 12:59 PM

341. ^^^^ +1000

She was one of the most intolerant people on this site.

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Response to Atman (Reply #341)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:02 PM

345. ya. she did not like women being called "skank", and she said so. bad redq.

 

how are you doing, dude????

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #345)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:40 PM

362. bullshit. That's not what I'm talking about and you know it.

 

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #362)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:44 PM

364. i didnt reply to you. did i? and i got a hide for saying bullshit. it does not meet

 

community standard and it is not "nice". just saying. that would be a reply to you... as opposed to atman.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #364)

Thu Aug 28, 2014, 01:49 PM