Spanish Imam Prays for ‘Destruction of Jews’ Near Madrid

[Rhinodawg]

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/spanish-imam-prays-for-destruction-of-jews-near-madrid/2014/08/28/


Spain’s Sheikh Shaleheoldine al-Moussaoui, imam of the municipality of Azuqueca De Henares near Madrid, longs to see God “destroy the plundering Jews.”

In a Friday sermon posted to the Internet this week, translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), the imam prayed, “Do not spare a single one of them.”

The anti-Semitic sheikh called the Jewish People ‘treacherous, war-mongering killers.’

[COLGATE4]

1. Spoken like a true man of God. nt

[Wella]

2. A rabbi is a man of G-d

I don't see a rabbi speaking like this unless he was mentally ill.

[COLGATE4]

7. I didn't think I needed to add the sarcasm

thingy. Apparently I was wrong.

[Wella]

10. So you think he is not acting like a man of G-d.

OK.

[COLGATE4]

13. You catch on really fast.

[Wella]

14. Thank you!

[delete_bush]

128. I think you forgot the

thingy.

[COLGATE4]

132. Yeah. That happens...

[shaayecanaan]

18. Unless he is the Chief Rabbi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_Eliyahu#Views

State-sanctioned revenge

In March 2008, he called for "state-sanctioned revenge" against Arabs. According to Haaretz, in an article for the newsletter Eretz Yisrael Shelanu ("Our Land of Israel&quot , Eliyahu proposed "hanging the children of the terrorist who carried out the attack in the Mercaz Harav yeshiva from a tree."[6]

Prime Minister

Eliyahu has called for a "religious" Prime Minister of Israel, saying that earlier prime ministers (presumably referring to Ehud Olmert) had been "without faith... without credibility... [and] without values."[7]

Propaganda pamphlet

Eliyahu was involved in publishing the conspiracy theory pamphlet "On Either Side of the Border" in cooperation with the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America (The OU asserts that its connection with the pamphlet was unauthorized by senior management).[8] The pamphlet cites the personal account of a recent convert to Judaism who had previously been a member of the Lebanese organisation Hezbollah. It asserts that the Pope and the Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church help organize tours of Auschwitz for Hezbollah members to teach them how to wipe out Jews. The pamphlet was distributed to IDF troops.[9] According to Danny Orbach, a Harvard-based Israeli historian, the pamphlet, which was supposedly written by a Lebanese, contains gross factual errors that no Arab could have made. In addition, there are also numerous other blatant geographical and cultural mistakes, proving that the author of the pamphlet is an ultra-orthodox Jew from Israel who knows very little about the Arab world. Orbach's conclusion is that Eliyahu took a part in a forgery, clearly in order to propagate hatred against Arabs and Muslims.[10] Eliyahu failed to answer the accusations,　but his spokesmen stressed the authenticity of the pamphlet in a conversation with Haaretz.[9][11] Furthermore, Eliyahu had widely quoted from the pamphlet in a subsequent article.[12]

Renting to Arabs

Main article: December 2010 Israeli rabbi letter controversy
Eliyahu has urged Jewish residents of Safed not to rent housing to Arabs, leading to calls for his suspension and for prosecution on grounds of racial incitement.[13][14][15] In July 2012, Israel's Ministry of Justice closed the investigation into allegations of incitement on the grounds of lack of evidence that the statements could be attributed to Eliyahu.

[oberliner]

36. 1,000 Rabbis Sign Letter Opposing The Appointment Of Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu To Chief Sephardic Rabbi

The letter states that Eliyahu has a long history of anti-Arab behavior, including charges that he “made a halakhic ruling barring Jews from renting apartments to Arabs, opposed military service for women, and characterized Arabs and Muslims in racist and humiliating terms.”

http://www.vosizneias.com/160604/2014/04/03/jerusalem-1000-rabbis-sign-letter-opposing-the-appointment-of-rabbi-shmuel-eliyahu-to-jerusalems-chief-sephardic-rabbi/

[shaayecanaan]

48. I was merely pointing out...

the error implicit in the post above that rabbis are "men of G-d" and never stoop to the levels of imams.

And racism is hardly uncommon amongst the chief rabbinate:-

In his first week in office, Lau caused a firestorm of controversy after using a biblical yet more currently derogatory word for black people ("kushim&quot in a discussion about foreign African-Americans who play basketball on Israeli teams. Ethiopian-born MK Pnina Tamanu-Shata condemned the comments as racist and expressed worry that he might discriminate against Ethiopian Israelis in the future

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lau

http://972mag.com/israels-rabbinate-the-rot-of-racism-and-a-return-to-african-roots/77476/

[leftynyc]

82. Not really

They're no closer to G-d than anyone else. Rabbi means teacher.

[seveneyes]

3. How many followers does this Spanish Imam have?

Is the ignorant piece of shit doing a "Westboro" or is he speaking for Islam?

[Aerows]

16. Good question

I'm betting on the former. Heaven knows (no pun intended) we have plenty of bat shit crazy evangelicals in the US that say all kinds of bigoted things. Crazy fundies are crazy fundies no matter what religion they follow.

[raven mad]

53. +200

Crazy is as crazy does; religion tends to make the crazies crazier, though for the life of me, I don't understand why. From the Crusades onward, it's all just gotten to be too much.

[samsingh]

4. it's wrong moving to another country and then bringing all your crap with you

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

5. What deity is he expecting to answer such a prayer?

It must be a god in a religion he made up, where Adolph Hitler is a patron saint.

[Rhinodawg]

6. “Do not spare a single one of them.”

Where , oh where have I heard that before.

[Archae]

8. Gee it wouldn't be spelled H-A-M-A-S, wouldn't it?

Seriously, some of the "Palestinians can do no wrong" apologists sound as bad as this "imam."

[Rhinodawg]

9. Hamas wants royalties... This Imam stole that line.

[malaise]

11. One anti-Semitic fool prays for the destruction of a people

Another war criminal blows up the homes of Palestinians and kills 2000 of them.

What a planet.

[Kurska]

15. Tell me something.

What would you say is happening whenever someone says something bad about a minority group, you reflexively have to attack that minority group in your "criticism" of that statement.

"Racism is horrible, man black people sure commit a lot of crimes am I right?!?!?"

Ever single thread about anti-semitism on DU is now filled with people saying something bad that jews half a world a way did. Why is that?

[Aerows]

17. Tell me something.

What would you say is happening when someone criticizes a person as an anti-Semitic fool for wishing ill on a people, then criticizes another person who does something that can be classified as a war crime?

I mean, hell, I've criticized George Bush plenty - what would you say was happening there if I also say Westboro church members are lunatics?

[Kurska]

19. Let me be blunt.

I'm not calling the situation equivalent at all, but if you someone was calling for the murder of all Russians and someone responded with "That is horrible, but so was the Katyn massacre". How could you construe that as anything but at minimum an attempt to deflect from the hatred in the first place? Why would you even bring it up if you weren't trying to inject it into a conversation? It isn't some random aside and you know that so don't yank my chain, I've seen several people do this several times already. It is never some unrelated massacre or crime, it is always something bad that jews did.

Why does every single thread about jew hatred need to be filled with people talking about bad things a jew did? And would we accept anyone doing this for any other minority group?

[Rhinodawg]

20. "And would we accept anyone doing this for any other minority group?"

nope...only jews.

[Kurska]

21. Yup, exactly my point.

Imagine the uproar if someone had responded to a thread about someone calling for the extermination of all chinese people with "Awful, Tienanmen square was too, what a world!"

[Aerows]

24. I must be forgetting

all of the instances of people calling for the extermination of all gay people or all black people. And some call for the extermination of all Muslims.

I guess I'm just imagining things.

Except that wasn't what happened here. Malaise accused Netanyahu of being a war criminal. Plenty of us around here have accused Bush of being a war criminal. That does NOT mean anyone is calling for the extermination of all Jews, all Americans or all dumb people from Texas.

[Kurska]

27. Um, that is excatly what the Iman in the OP is doing. Did you read it?

And Malaise's response to that is "How awful, quickly let me bring up something bad a jew did."

Maybe once, but when this is happening in every single thread that is about jew hatred something is rotten in Denmark.

[malaise]

93. Not only that while we are willing to condemn

war criminals, you will never see condemnation of the genocide of Palestinians from the same people who are always first to condemn anti-Semitic words - as opposed to Bibi's deeds.

[Aerows]

109. Condemning words

instead of deeds.

That, my friend is profound.

[malaise]

112. They are ugly words but words are not genocide

They are not the destruction of families, homes, schools, hospitals, etc.
I've had enough sis.

[Aerows]

117. You got attacked in this thread

and then your post in this thread was contorted and mis-quoted.

More smears against you, Malaise. I cannot abide by a decent person getting smeared in this fashion.

[Aerows]

23. REALLY?

After the Michael Brown shooting, are you REALLY going to sit there and say that many didn't say that he deserved it?

REALLY?

[Kurska]

30. Wait, are you saying that this is equivalent to people saying Michael Brown deserved to die

And you're DEFENDING the person who responded in a situation where the topic at hand is "all Jews deserve to die".

My jaw is on the floor.

I mean, I'm not saying he is defending that statement, but you seem to be implying that here.

[Aerows]

38. I'm defending a person where the topic at hand is "all Jews deserve to die"?

What? I'm not sure what thread you are in or what you comments you are responding to, but Kurska, you just smacked the implication and insinuation ball right out of the park if that is your take away from anything I've ever posted anywhere on DU.

Wow.

We're obviously done here if you are trying to twist what I've said into some rendition of that. Good day, and Good Luck.

[Kurska]

41. The thread is about all jews deserving to die. Read the OP

Someone mentioned the behavior of someone else in this thread, saying it never happens like this to other minority groups.

You then brought up people saying Michael Brown deserved to die as an example of it happening. Which anyone could realize was accidentally linking one behavior to another.

It is hilarious how you're now looking for any kind of out, given you still haven't responded to the basic premise of "Why is it okay to respond to thread about minority hatred with posts of what that minority has done wrong?"

If you want to quit playing games and actually respond properly to that idea, fine, but otherwise, it is probably best if you do just go away.

[Aerows]

22. Unfortunately

The situation in Gaza is still very fresh in people's minds. It is going to be brought up.

The Imam is a nutjob. It's what nutjobs do - they capitalize on current events to further their brand of nutjobbery and bigotry. It doesn't make what George Bush (or some of Obama's policies, for that matter) any less horrible. It also doesn't make Netanyahu's decisions palatable or justifiable, either.

Every single thread where someone criticizes Netanyahu and the actions that took place in Gaza ALSO has people leap to chime in about how horrible this group is or that group is, or what somebody said, so honestly, this line of reasoning isn't garnering much sympathy anymore. Let me know when someone in this thread doesn't condemn what the nut Imam said, then we can talk about how awful that DUer is about bashing minority groups - I'm not seeing it.

[Kurska]

25. Can we please cut out the BS?

Don't pretend it is just some random commentary on some unrelated event. You're above that and literally no one buys that. No would believe that someone responding to a thread about wanting to murder all serbian with "That is so wrong, just like the Srebrenica massacre" was just pulling a random event from their head. No one is that naive.

Hatred for jews, followed up by posts on DU that trumpets the sins of Jewish people.

Come on, be real.

[Aerows]

26. George Bush is a war criminal.

There I said it.

I'm NOT, by the way, calling for the extermination of dumb people from Texas, nor the dissolution of the United States of America.

[Kurska]

28. No one accused him of saying that, literally what thread are you reading?

The situation would be equivalent to SOMEONE ELSE calling for the murder of all Texan and another person responding with "That is awful, just like that Texan war criminal George Bush!"

Not a hard concept.

[FrodosPet]

32. It is noble that you are not calling for the extermination of dumb people from Texas

Can you convince Sheikh Shaleheoldine al-Moussaoui to follow that standard towards the Jews of Madrid?

[Aerows]

34. Probably not anymore than I could convince

a Freeper to stop supporting the shooting of unarmed black men by the police.

Could you do that?

[FrodosPet]

42. With many, if not most of them, in a one on one conversation

Yes, I believe I could, since I would be civil, and not starting out by calling them a stupid ratfucker who fornicates his sister.

First, I would start about talking about the power differentials, and how state power is too frequently used to support a small number of people. Trust, there are a lot of people on the right who worry about too much government. So I would use that as the foundation.

They would undoubtedly start talking about the higher crime rate, etc. I would concede that point because I think it is useless in the long run to make points, regardless of how noble, using lies. But I would counter that every group has problems with crime.

Somewhere I would find a chink in their racist armor and while I doubt I would turn them into true progressives, I can say that many would soften their opinions.

I know because I've done it in the past.

Obviously, I could not do it on their turf - I would be PPRed on the first post.

[Aerows]

43. Well then

I'm sure you could take on the challenge with said Imam.

[FrodosPet]

44. Challenge accepted!

Now where did I put his phone number?

"Hello? Sheik? Ya, cool name. There was a famous wrestler back in the 60s and 70s called The Sheik, and another one in the 80s called The Iron Sheik. They were awesome villains, just like you. Any relation? No? Sorry, my bad."

"Listen, I know you have this hard on against The Jews. Lots of people seem to. I have nothing against them myself, but like any group of people, there are some annoying individuals. But there are also some wonderful people who have really helped me and my family and the world in general out."

"Anyhow, I was wondering, any chance you can chill on the whole Kill The Jews thing? I mean, come on... has any Kill The Jews group ever NOT been effed over and lost in the end? Thinkaboutit... maybe Allah is not against them after all!"

[Aerows]

46. Hey, you never know :)

Every little bit of sanity helps!

[Rhinodawg]

47. + infinity !!!!

[HERVEPA]

29. What's happening in Gaza is opening up the opportunity for barely disguised anti-semitism from some

on this site.

[Aerows]

33. Or it could just be

that some people are sickened by what happened in Gaza. Ever thought of that? Hell I'm always sickened when people die for no good reason. I'm sickened by what is happening in Syria, by what my own nation - the US is doing in who knows how many countries killing people with drones, and the things occurring in the Ukraine. I'm sickened by what happened in Ferguson, MO.

Being sick of killing doesn't make you despise the race, religion, orientation, or creed doesn't make you automatically opposed to the people of those races, religions, orientations or creeds, it just means you are sick of the actors doing the killing and those who support the killing and/or try to excuse it.

I'm white, but I sure as hell don't excuse gunning down an unarmed black man. That doesn't make me anti-police, but it sure does make me question those that support the actions of Darren Wilson and the Ferguson police.

[HERVEPA]

35. It's what you say for most people here, anti-semitism for many

[Aerows]

39. So you are accusing "many" on DU

(and honestly, I can't figure out if I'm somehow included in that number, but whatever) of being anti-Semites?

[HERVEPA]

45. Not including you, am including many, obviously not naming names.

[840high]

49. Noticed.

[Scootaloo]

54. Unlike anti-black and anti-Arab hate, which is refreshingly open on DU

And usually coming from the same people who claim to see antisemitism from all quarters.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. Yup.

Then there are those who like to further distract by making other claims. Never stay on topic if the topic is anti-Semitism.

[Aerows]

57. I'd like to think that many people

on DU see beyond the prism of homophobia, racism, bigotry and anti-Semitism when they make arguments.

Many of us on DU have been targets of all of them, so it wears a bit thin when a discussion breaks down into nothing but "You hate ____ because you disagree with me" - or worse "You hate ____ because you disagree with a particular policy or politician."

That's a one-sided discussion.

No one gains anything from it.

I'll step up to the plate. I disagree with Netanyahu and his actions/policies in Gaza. Does that mean I want the dissolution of Israel, destruction of Jews and every other foul thing said by radical Islamic clerics?

If you are an absolutist, sure. That is exactly what I said.

Sane discussion would simply say "Oh, Aerows disagrees with Netanyahu and isn't calling for the murder of all Jewish people in Israel." Much like "Oh, Aerows disagrees with George Bush and isn't calling for the murder of all Americans and the dissolution of the United States."

Too much hyperbole gets thrown around to the point where it is irrational.

[Behind the Aegis]

59. And many use those prisims to their advantage, then claim "foul" when called on it.

Too much anti-Semitism is rationalized.

[Aerows]

60. Examples

I'm not saying they don't - I'm just asking for examples.

Criticism of the policy of a State leader does not mean you feel maliciously towards all who support that person, their policies or share the same ethnic background.

[Behind the Aegis]

61. Why?

There was one which was deleted when it was shown the video he posted was anti-Semitic. He later went to post a lovely cartoon about people falsely claiming anti-Semitism when criticizing Israel. Ironic? No, reality.

Again, the TOPIC of this thread is about someone calling for the destruction of JEWS and yet, someone decided to, once again, make it about Israel.

[Aerows]

62. The objection, then

is based upon the fact that someone called out the leader of the Jewish state as a war criminal after calling out a two-bit nutjob Imam for being a hateful prick?

As for the cartoon, I didn't see it so I can't render an opinion.

[Behind the Aegis]

63. The objection is simply this...

"Homophobia is bad, but pedophilia is a crime." Does that even sound remotely like a condemnation of homophobia or making an excuse by distracting (by conflation) from the topic at hand? If you can't answer that question honestly, then I can't help you.

[Aerows]

64. Yes it does

It is trying to conflate one thing with another - and I see that a lot in these threads along with a heaping helping of hyperbole.

I'm going to bed. I'll reply in the morning with something more energetic.

Peace, BtA

[Behind the Aegis]

65. Yes, and it was that "heaping helping of hyperbole" above that started this subthread.

You don't seem to see it.

[Warren DeMontague]

71. At least it was acknowledged as anti semitism.

Unlike the drunks who attacked the schoolbus full of jewish kids, which might not technically have been anti-semitism because, ah, gaza

Or something.

[Behind the Aegis]

72. You noticed that too?

Progress!

[JustAnotherGen]

89. + 10000

[Warren DeMontague]

69. No, it's just that when someone advocates killing all Jews, that's the PERFECT TIME

To immediately bring up Gaza, because, you know, it's totally unrelated but still "fresh in peoples minds".

Or something.

[JustAnotherGen]

88. Thank you

I've wondered the same thing. Let each situation globally - stand on its own.

[Aerows]

134. Frankly, I believe DU is

better than knee-jerk reactions in the I/P debate.

There are a lot of parallels between young black men in our country automatically designated as guilty, and is true in the case of a confrontation between Israelis and Palestinians.

[Spider Jerusalem]

66. Israel is not a "minority group"

Your comments remind me of the late Tony Judt's rather incisive commentary on this issue:

The habit of tarring any foreign criticism with the brush of anti-Semitism is deeply engrained in Israeli political instincts: Ariel Sharon used it with characteristic excess but he was only the latest in a long line of Israeli leaders to exploit the claim. David Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir did no different. But Jews outside of Israel pay a high price for this tactic. Not only does it inhibit their own criticisms of Israel for fear of appearing to associate with bad company, but it encourages others to look upon Jews everywhere as de facto collaborators in Israel's misbehavior. When Israel breaks international law in the occupied territories, when Israel publicly humiliates the subject populations whose land it has seized - but then responds to its critics with loud cries of "anti-Semitism" - it is in effect saying that these acts are not Israeli acts, they are Jewish acts: The occupation is not an Israeli occupation, it is a Jewish occupation, and if you don't like these things it is because you don't like Jews.

http://www.haaretz.com/general/the-country-that-wouldn-t-grow-up-1.186721

[Behind the Aegis]

67. But Jews ARE a minority group and the Iman wasn't calling for the destruction of Israel.

Claiming to "condemn" anti-Semitism, then immediately "criticizing" Israel is a perfect example of the problem your quote from that person, but in the opposite direction.

[Spider Jerusalem]

68. Muslim anti-Semitism is largely a reaction to Israel's actions against the Palestinians.

It's deplorable but it isn't the same thing as traditional European anti-Semitism. Israel claims to be "the Jewish state", and carries out policies that amount to de facto apartheid and ethnic cleansing. Is it any wonder that some people blame "the Jews" rather than Israel? Especially when this conflation of "Jews" and "Israel" is encouraged by the Israeli state and accepted by many Jews? (You can't have it both ways, by the way. Either Israel = "the Jews" or it doesn't. If it's the latter then it's perfectly coherent to condemn anti-Semitism while criticising Israel.)

relevant further commentary from the same writer:

Today, non-Israeli Jews feel themselves once again exposed to criticism and vulnerable to attack for things they didn’t do. But this time it is a Jewish state, not a Christian one, which is holding them hostage for its own actions. Diaspora Jews cannot influence Israeli policies, but they are implicitly identified with them, not least by Israel’s own insistent claims upon their allegiance. The behavior of a self-described Jewish state affects the way everyone else looks at Jews. The increased incidence of attacks on Jews in Europe and elsewhere is primarily attributable to misdirected efforts, often by young Muslims, to get back at Israel. The depressing truth is that Israel’s current behavior is not just bad for America, though it surely is. It is not even just bad for Israel itself, as many Israelis silently acknowledge. The depressing truth is that Israel today is bad for the Jews.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2003/oct/23/israel-the-alternative/

[Behind the Aegis]

70. Anti-Semitism is still anti-Semitism.

"Is it any wonder that some people blame "the Jews" rather than Israel?"

Does it make it any less anti-Semitic? NO.

"Especially when this conflation of "Jews" and "Israel" is encouraged by the Israeli state and accepted by many Jews? (You can't have it both ways, by the way. Either Israel = "the Jews" or it doesn't. If it's the latter then it's perfectly coherent to condemn anti-Semitism while criticising Israel.) "

Seems to work when comments like the above are made. The only time people seem to squeal is when a Jew is making the comparison. Funny, that.

Calling for the death of all Jews is anti-Semitism and making a comment about Palestinians and Israel is irrelevant and doesn't make the anti-Semitism any more palatable, well, at least not to most.

[Spider Jerusalem]

73. It seems to be rather wilfully ignorant...

to act as though there's no possible connection between Israel's actions in the occupied territories and expressions of Muslim anti-Semitism elsewhere. I don't think it's at all helpful for people to not distinguish between "Israel" and "Jews", and to not understand that the actions of the state of Israel are not the actions of the Jewish people...but neither is it helpful for Israel and Jews themselves to fail to make that distinction. (I don't find the anti-Semitism palatable or acceptable, but I find it at least as understandable as Iranians chanting "death to America" or black South Africans singing "Kill the Boer", when certain contexts are considered.)

[Behind the Aegis]

74. It seems to me to be wilfully ignorant...

to act as if a reason for anti-Semitism somehow negates or lessens the fact it is anti-Semitism. It is "understandable" in that it is used as an excuse for some to take any act of anti-Semitism and make an excuse for it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

75. There's a difference between an explanation and an excuse

and the connection between Israel's actions and Muslim anti-Semitism has been widely noted by many commentators (including Jewish and Israeli commentators). For instance: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4156355,00.html

See also Gen. Yehoshafat Harkabi (former chief of Israeli military intelligence; later professor of international relations at the Hebrew University), "Arab Attitudes to Israel" (1974):

It should be stated with the utmost emphasis that Arab anti-Semitism is not the cause of the conflict but one of its results; it is not the reason for the hostile Arab attitude toward Israel and the Jews, but a means of deepening, justifying and institutionalizing that hostility. Its rise is connected with the tension created as a result of Zionist activity, and especially of the traumatic experience of defeat, the establishment of independent Israel and the struggle against her. Anti-Semitism is a weapon in this struggle. It is functional and political, not social: it presents the Jews mainly as a political, not a social threat.... Hence it describes the Jews, not as passive, shrinking parasites, but as aggressors. Unlike Western Christian anti-Semitism, it is not the result of generations of incitement which have created an archetype in the popular consciousness, although there are elements in Islam on which anti-Semitism could build.

[Behind the Aegis]

76. Yes there is.

Then, by your "logic", Islamophobia by Jews is "understandable" because of the constant attacks against Israel and Jews around the world by Muslims. So, using your "logic", how does this sit with you:

Spanish Rabbi Prays for ‘Destruction of Muslims' Near Madrid

One Islamophobic fool prays for the destruction of a people

Another terrorist blows up a bridal shop/Sbarro/school of Israelis and kills scores of them.

What a planet.

So, does Jewish Islamophobia get an "exception" as well?

[Spider Jerusalem]

77. It's not just "my" logic, as the examples provided amply illustrate

And I haven't said anything about an "exception" or giving anyone a pass. Muslim anti-Semitism whatever its causes is not something I find acceptable (there's a difference between "understandable in context" and "acceptable&quot ; I don't find Israeli anti-Arabism to be acceptable either, however (and no, it doesn't get a pass either). I'm sorry you have such difficulty with nuance.

[Behind the Aegis]

78. The nuance issue seems to be yours.

The OP is about anti-Semitism, NOT Israel. Commenting on anti-Semitism and then saying "but" negates what was said before. Do you understand that?

[Spider Jerusalem]

80. Nope, it's entirely yours

since you seem to be the one who insists on looking at things in a context-free manner while conflating criticisms of Israel with anti-Semitism.

[Behind the Aegis]

81. No, it is actually all yours.

You seem to be the one who claims that

I don't think it's at all helpful for people to not distinguish between "Israel" and "Jews", and to not understand that the actions of the state of Israel are not the actions of the Jewish people

Yet, continue to "excuse" the comment made to which another poster responded. I am not the one conflating anything, post #11 is. I can't wait for your comment to that post to read:

I don't think it's at all helpful for people to not distinguish between "Israel" and "Jews", and to not understand that the actions of the state of Israel are not the actions of the Jewish people

I am guessing it will never happen. But I certainly "understand" your strawman.

[Spider Jerusalem]

84. I have't commented on that post, one way or another...

except indirectly through my comments in this subthread. (You can read that comment as applying to the above, as well; however the fact that I don't find such conflation at all helpful doesn't mean people won't do it, which is something I can't do anything about...especially not when some of the people doing the conflating are Jewish. Just like I can't stop people from conflating criticism of the policies of the US government and hatred of Americans generally.)

[Behind the Aegis]

85. Of course you haven't commented on that post.

(It is obvious from your first strawman post.)

Despite the fact that it fits your supposed claims. Ignored it? It isn't a matter of controlling peoples' comments or not, but it does speak to your other posts. It isn't ME conflating Israel and Jews, it is another poster.

[Spider Jerusalem]

87. What "strawman"?

The person I was responding to interpreted criticism of Israel as criticism of Jews. I quote:

What would you say is happening whenever someone says something bad about a minority group, you reflexively have to attack that minority group in your "criticism" of that statement.

Israel is not a minority group, and criticism of Israel, or of Netayahu, is not critcism of Jews.

[Behind the Aegis]

104. Yes, it is a strawman, but seemingly an accidental one.

Kurska was talking about Jews, not Israel, that was you and malaise. What he responded to was the irrelevant caveat of "but Israel did such and such" in response to a thread about ANTI-SEMITISM.

[Spider Jerusalem]

106. Hardly irrelevant.

Not when Israel proclaims itself to be "the Jewish state" and enforces policies of de facto apartheid and ethnic cleansing against an occupied and largely Muslim minority population within territory under its control, it seems to be to be the height of wilful blindness to imagine that those actions can't possibly have anything at all to do with a rise in Muslim anti-Semitism. And yes, Kurska was talking about ISRAEL. Since Malaise criticised ISRAEL and Kurska clearly read it as "an attack on a minority group".

[Behind the Aegis]

118. You're still wrong.

He was saying do not use "the Jewish State" to distract from the anti-Semitic remarks made by the Iman. You can't say "racism is bad, but what about that black-on-black crime?" It is using a caveat to attack the very group which you are proclaiming to say discrimination against is bad. Malaise's "criticism" was used to "justify/excuse" the anti-Semitism from the original remark, to which Kurska was responding. However, given your other posts, it seems you will never see this and this is just yet one more example of 'splaining to a minority from a majority.

[JustAnotherGen]

91. See my response below BTA

Why does this man's words need to be dissected for meaning? It's all right there. He laid out his true nature for all to see. It's his truth - and he must stand on it.

[Aerows]

115. What in the FUCK?

BtA that is BENEATH you and everyone on DU.

Malaise said nothing of the sort, and taking her words out of context is disgusting, dehumanizing and an attempt at deception that is beyond LOW.

This is the post:

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10025456382#post11

She said, and I quote from that post:

"One anti-Semitic fool prays for the destruction of a people

Another war criminal blows up the homes of Palestinians and kills 2000 of them.

What a planet."

You should be ashamed of yourself for distorting a good DUers statements into something that is a vile lie.

Shame on YOU!

[Behind the Aegis]

119. Thank you for 'splaining.

[Aerows]

122. Thank you for being rude

We certainly could do with more rudeness of this sort in the community.



That out of the way, please illustrate my "splaining" posts. I am open-minded, my friend, and I welcome an example of such. It helps us all if we get *specific* *pointed* examples of our bigotry.

I would welcome weeding such out of my life.

[Behind the Aegis]

124. It started with your rude post.

You were so "offended" by my re-working of malaise's post, but not offended by your "sis'" original post. Strange. Well, not really, but I am being "polite."

I suggest you do some actual reading about anti-Semitism before commenting on it.

[Aerows]

125. When you "rework" someone's post

to put words in their mouth ... I don't think it is me that needs to research polite, honest debate.

I mean, really, re-wording a person's post to claim they said something that they didn't, BtA? That's the antithesis of fair, honest and well-reasoned debate.

[Behind the Aegis]

126. Then you totally missed the point!

The conversation being had with SJ was about something else, as well as malaise's post. So yes, Aerows, I "reworked" the post by substituting, word for word, to see if he thought the new version would be acceptable. You didn't think it was, yet you think the original was. Hmmm. So, you are WRONG as to why I re-worded it. It wasn't to CLAIM anything, Aerows, it was to DEMONSTRATE the absurdity of saying something is bad, then providing a caveat in which the affected group is now "bad." (see the homosexual example I gave you again!!!) It seems, Aerows, you are the one trying to make claims about someone's posts (mine) which are not[/I being made.

[Aerows]

127. I have never missed the point

when someone alters another persons post as though they are claiming that said person said something that they didn't.

It's dishonest. Yes, I stopped right there, because if you are going to quote someone, then quote what they said

That bucket holds no water for me.

[Behind the Aegis]

129. Oh, but you did and continue to do so.

I asked if it would be acceptable, apparently it is not, yet the original is. That is the point. I didn't alter it to claim anything about malaise's post. I never, despite your continued claims, asserted what I wrote was what malaise said in response to the post, I used her exact format for a hypothetical OP and asked SJ if that version would be acceptable. Your hyperbolic response demonstrates it wouldn't be, yet the original is "a-ok."

[Aerows]

130. Let me get this straight

someone makes a post. You disagree with that person.

Later, as an argument you change the wording of that person's post. Now it means something other than what they said, since you out-right edited it - and NOW you get affronted because somebody else notes that you misquoted that person and their post?

If we are all going to be on a message board together, we need to argue with what we ACTUALLY said, not what we IMAGINE someone said and then alter people's posts into our IMAGINATION to make a point.

If you wish to dispute that criteria, have at it.

[Behind the Aegis]

131. No, get it CORRECT.

Someone made a post, ANOTHER poster disagreed (Kurska), then ANOTHER poster, (SJ) made an inadvertent strawman and then explained how some anti-Semitism in "understandable." My comments were directed to SJ correcting his incorrect assumptions about Kurska's remarks to malaise's post. I then created a hypothetical and asked if it would be acceptable. He has yet to respond. I didn't CLAIM , as you keep falsely claiming, it was a QUOTE of malaise's post. I paraphrased her response to the hypothetical response. I, at NO POINT, claim it a "quote" of another person or claim anything.

If we are all going to be on a message board together, we need to argue with what we ACTUALLY said, not what we IMAGINE someone said and then alter people's posts into our IMAGINATION to make a point.

Then stop telling me what I "claimed" and "did" when it isn't even remotely close!

[Aerows]

133. I don't think anyone

on any fora, would not step in to correct a person that misquotes another poster.

It's wrong. It casts suspicion on your argument.

Why? You are using deception instead of discourse in good faith.

[Behind the Aegis]

137. You have already explained in another post why you won't get this.

Your position is obvious. Cognitive Dissonance.

[Aerows]

140. No.

If you quote someone, quote them accurately.

It is a big no-no to alter a person's statements then purport that they said it.

Not cool, never will be.

Should I quote you with something you didn't say?

You wouldn't like it anymore than anyone else would. I'm rather puzzled why you don't get something so fundamental. You *never* co-op a person in a quote by linking it then changing the post.

It is basic etiquette.

[Behind the Aegis]

142. You really DO NOT GET IT.

I was NOT quoting anyone! PERIOD! I NEVER claimed anyone said the QUOTE. It was a HYPOTHETICAL.

You do NOT get it. I will make this VERY simplistic:

GAY MAN IS BASHED (This is a hypothetical).

Poster comes along and says: Homophobia is bad, but it doesn't justify what Jeffrey Dahmer did!

Do you GET IT now?!

[oberliner]

95. No it's not

Muslims are killed in much larger numbers around the world by countries and entities that have nothing to do with Israel. In fact, more Muslims are killed specifically for their religion by other Muslims who don't think they are the right kind of Muslims.

Jews have been widely persecuted throughout the Muslim world over hundreds of years prior to Israel's existence.

Maybe read up on Mehmed IV and the Jews of Yemen in the late 17th century? Or the massacre of the Jews of Baghdad in 1828?

[malaise]

94. 100% correct

[Kurska]

102. The thread was about jew hatred.

Last edited Fri Aug 29, 2014, 05:16 PM - Edit history (2)

But hey, whatever, since when do facts matter.

I mean, it isn't at all suspicious when people reflexively link criticism of jew hatred to the bad actions of jews or jewish lead nations. If you say the magical word "it is about Israel!" it fixes all those troubling implication.

[840high]

50. You disappoint me.

[GitRDun]

52. Best comment by far! +1

[Aerows]

58. Implying that YOU

are a bigot, a racist and an anti-Semite for blaming the leader, Netanyahu, and not the people as a whole takes the cake.

I stood up for you, and will continue to stand against anyone that implies that criticizing a political leader means you despise the people. That's nonsense and a disgusting smear. I don't mind saying it as it is, Malaise because you are a kind DUer and to see you be smeared like that makes me mad.

[malaise]

96. You know my convictions sis

Do not do unto others what you do not want done to you.
When they condemn the deeds of Netanyahu, they can get back to me. I'm tough!!

[AverageJoe90]

12. Please, Madrid, do the Spanish people a favor and exile this motherfucker.....

or jail him for trying to incite violence against a minority group.....I don't care which.

[ZombieHorde]

31. My stepdad used to say:

We have enough religion to hate each other, but not enough to love each other.

[oberliner]

37. Well said

Sad but true.

[Aerows]

40. Profound

and I wish more people thought of that.

[still_one]

51. That sure isn't very Christian of him. Opps....

[Scootaloo]

55. Asshole religious man says asshole stuff

Never before have i heard the like!

[sakabatou]

79. Oh yay

As if we Jews aren't hated/scapegoated enough.

[leftynyc]

83. I'll wear the hatred

from this clown as a badge of honor.

[JustAnotherGen]

92. I will stand right next to you

And jump in front of you if he throws a punch.

[leftynyc]

97. Awww

That made my morning.

[JustAnotherGen]

99. I'm glad

I don't know how anyone can excuse that vile statement. And not for nothing - I don't like when Netanyahu makes statements so vile either.

But he's one man leading ONE country. I don't know a single Jewish person Brit friend or family in America that wouldn't choose to save President Obama's life if he and Netanyahu were both drowning and they could only save one. So I'm hostile towards the imam for THAT alone.

Not my neighbors over the bridge.

[leftynyc]

101. I too would save Pres Obama

in a heartbeat. I voted for him twice and think, considering what he's had to put up with, he's doing a very good job. Bibi is an asshole.

[Exposethefrauds]

86. BFD, American Christian Leaders regularly pray for the death of and encourage the death of:

Last edited Fri Aug 29, 2014, 06:10 AM - Edit history (1)

Doctors
The President
Gays
Liberals
Non Christians

Just to name a few that the America Christians want dead.

Praying for the death of those who do not believe in your religion is what all religions do.

Religion ALL Religion needs to be banned.

American Christians murder Doctors in Church's, ISIS Blows up Mosques, which interestingly enough that was what America Christians did all over the south to Black Churches.

Guess ISIS is just following the lead of their American Christian counterparts.

[leftynyc]

98. Let me know when those

Christians in this country start beheading people for being a different religion or gay or liberal or a doctor. Then you'll get my attention. The vermin that killed Dr. Tiller got the death penalty for it.

[JustAnotherGen]

90. Do not spare a single one of them

Where have we heard that before?

So - he wants Americans that are Jews destroyed? Canadians? British?


Let's just take his statement for what it is.

That's clearly calling for the destruction of my friends, neighbors, and a branch of my very diverse family tree. Those are words of hate and destruction. Just thinking of two of my innermost circle of girlfriends - those two have not done a damn thing to this man, the citizens of Gaza, anyone - anywhere. Neither would hurt a fly.

Yet - he wouldn't spare them - even though they both have been quite vocal publicly about their anger towards Netanyahu and as one of them called it - His house of horrors.

This man is leading people - to harm other innocents around the world.

[Rhinodawg]

100. Gee, he seems like a warm friendly guy.

[jwirr]

103. It seems that bigotry is alive and active in all its phases. This is really sad. I understand the

anger at the war with Gaza but what good does more hate do?

[Initech]

105. George Carlin was right - religion is the leading cause of death on this planet.

[Comrade Grumpy]

107. Christianity produces some nutball, hate-filled preachers, too.

[Rhinodawg]

108. I knew you'd say that, buddy.

You know any preachers who give sermons wanting to kill another group ?

[Aerows]

110. Yes

would you like examples?

Hmm. Death to fags. Death to Muslims. Death to "liberals" (whatever that means). Death to Democrats. Death to blacks. Death to immigrants.

Above is an excellent example of why I lost faith in religion. When killing means more than loving, you are not on the right path.

[Marrah_G]

111. Like LGBT people?

[Behind the Aegis]

120. Think people would "excuse" it away but providing examples of "bad gays"?

[Marrah_G]

121. Some people probably would

I'm still pondering whether religion causes violence or is a convenient excuse for violence. I keep wondering if we will ever evolve as a species and leave behind the violent gene.

[Behind the Aegis]

123. Hopefully, if that happened, there would be people to condmen it.

My vote is "convenient excuse" and no, I don't think we will ever evolve beyond violence.

[Aerows]

135. Plenty of people step up to the plate

and vociferously oppose racism.

The problem, in some instances, comes from people that think they *aren't* behaving in a racist manner, while operating in a blind spot.

We all have them, but when twenty people tell you that you missed the target and you see a group of arrows in the bales of hay instead of the target, you aren't going to get much mileage out of calling yourself an expert marksman.

[Behind the Aegis]

136. You summed it up

"comes from people that think they *aren't* behaving in a racist manner, while operating in a blind spot. "

[Aerows]

138. Yep

We only learn how to get along with each other when we realize we are staring in the mirror.

[Behind the Aegis]

139. And sometimes they think the mirror is their opponent.

[Aerows]

141. Food for thought

Food for peace.

I value both highly.

[m-lekktor]

114. ummm yeah.

christians quote leviticus from the bible and claim LBGT are worthy of death on occasion,

[hollowdweller]

113. Yeah stuff like this is so hard to get your head around.

I mean we hear this in the news and then it's hard to know how to take it.

On one hand as several reality checks in this thread have said, really nasty stuff said by religious people is not limited to Muslims.

Then while there are good reasons for doing it there is a media narrative of the crazy and warlike Muslim faith and is this just picking one guy out and then putting it in the national news to fit into the narrative?

Then on the other hand it really does seem like with a lot of Islamic people in the middle east really hate the Jews.

On one hand I can understand it because of the whole Israel Palestinian issue.

On the other hand West Bank used to be part of Jordan, Gaza Egypt, those countries never gave it to the Palestinians when they owned it. Then you don't see that many loving on the kurds and they are like the Palestinians.

[JI7]

116. do people really think this idiot gives a shit about the palestinian people ?