Ukraine's former President &Prime Minister to formalize and strengthen alliance with Neo-Nazi groups

[newthinking]

Things in Ukraine are getting incredibly ominous.

Yes, this is a shocking headline but this is what is happening. There are no longer any doubts that the new Ukrainian leadership wasn't allied with Svoboda and Right sector (Neo Nazi groups) as a "necessary temporary situation", but is so aligned with them that they are taking part of the "fatherhood" party and binding with Svoboda and Right sector to create a larger, more powerful coalition.

Facism, having been emboldened from the recent coup in Ukraine, is growing significantly there as the country further splits politically. This is only one strong front for Facism there, there are also other parties such as PM Lyashko's "Radical Party, which has been growing in influence as well; (Lyashko is the Parlimentary member that Amnesty International warned on):

Link to Amnesty's info:
Impunity reigns for abductions and ill-treatment by pro-Kyiv vigilantes in eastern Ukraine
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/Impunity-reigns-for-abductions-ill-treatment-eastern-Ukraine-06-08-2014


There was always a problem with the new government that came into power in Kiev having brought in Neo-Nazi "commanders" into the executive branch and in many other positions in government. But they claim all along was that it wasn't a significant thing, and not demonstrative of the major personalities involved.

But this is clear evidence that not only was is it a considerable problem, but power players in the existing government are going to actually **increase** the prominence of these groups by forming a parliamentary collation and running together in the elections. This is a serious development and needs to be exposed.

From the Kyiv Post:

Turchynov, Avakov, Parubiy and commanders of special battalions included in military council of People's Front

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/turchynov-avakov-parubiy-and-commanders-of-special-battalions-included-in-military-council-of-peoples-front-364326.html

Parubiy is one of the heads of "Svoboda". This alliance also includes Andriy Biletsky, the head of the “Azov” battalion, the most openly fascist of the paramilitary battalions. Biletsky is also the leader of the Social-National Assembly of Ukraine and it’s paramilitary wing Patriot of Ukraine, (essentially the most violent and militant of the neo-nazi groups in Ukraine).


From wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_of_Ukraine)

"The Patriot of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Патріо́т Украї́ни is a Ukrainian nationalist organization with racist and neo-Nazi political beliefs. It constitutes a paramilitary wing of the Social-National Assembly of Ukraine (S.N.A.), an assemblage of neo-Nazi organizations and groups founded in 2008 that share the social-national ideology and agree upon building a social-national state in Ukraine. Both the “Patriot of Ukraine” and the S.N.A. engage in political violence against minorities and their political opponents. The leader of the “Patriot of Ukraine” and of the Social-National Assembly is Andriy Biletsky."

Here is a picture of the collation meeting. (Notice the banner in the background).
The former President and PM in the foreground.

[jwirr]

1. And who's side are these guys supposed to be on?

[newthinking]

2. Is that a Rhetorical question?

or sarcasm?

These are the guys Nuland wanted in power. What are we thinking?

The question to be answered... now that it is becoming much more open, will we continue to support these guys? Will President Obama reject them and now that we have helped open a pandora's box, is there anything we can do to close this component back down a bit? Who will we align with? The Oligarch Poroshenko (who at least to appearances seems more moderate) or do we continue to support these folks?

[jwirr]

5. I am not sure what kind of question it is. There is some sarcasm in it but I really wanted to know

the answer. I am a German American and this makes me kind of sick to my stomach. I guess you could say I am upset. Thank you for the info.

[sabrina 1]

22. I believe they are part of the Kiev Coup Government. The Neo Nazi party has been part of that

government from the beginning. Worse, our own government represented by two US Senators, one Republican and one Democrat were meeting with the leader of that party last December, posing for photos with them.

My question at the time was 'do they KNOW who these guys are'?? I still can't tell if they knew but nothing that has happened since then that shows they had any problem with these far Right thugs.

It makes a lot of people sick to their stomachs, but here shamefully, on DU of all places, the alliance with the Neo Nazis has actually been defended.

Here's a little info on who we are apparently associated with:



U.S. Republican Senator John McCain, Democratic senator, Chris Murphy, second left, and the leader of the Sbvoda Party, Oleh Tyahnybok,

John McCain Went To Ukraine And Stood On Stage With A Man Accused Of Being An Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi

However, the [Svoboda] party's past is seriously murky. When it was founded in 1995, the party called itself the Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), and it had a swastika-like logo. While it eventually split from its more right wing members, the party remained focused on celebrating Ukrainian ethnic identity in opposition to Russia and Communism.

Tyahnybok himself was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction in 2004 after giving a speech demanding that Ukrainians fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia" (he later clarified this by saying that he actually had Jewish friends and was only against to "a group of Jewish oligarchs who control Ukraine and against Jewish-Bolsheviks [in the past]&quot . In 2005 he wrote open letters demanding Ukraine do more to halt "criminal activities" of "organized Jewry," and, even now, Svoboda openly calls for Ukrainian citizens to have their ethnicity printed onto their passports.

Tyahnybok is a prominent leader in the Ukrainian protests, so perhaps it was only right that McCain met with him as he did with the others (we reached out to McCain's office to find out how much he interacted with Tyahnybok, but have not heard back at the time of writing). You can defintely understand, however, why Jewish leaders in Ukraine and abroad are concerned about him.

In the past, McCain has sometimes revealed a simplistic, Cold War viewpoint of Russia. You have to wonder if, by going to Ukraine and standing on stage with a man accused of being an anti-Semitic neo-Nazi, he may have shown that trait again.

http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12#ixzz3DXZ5a47z

Disturbing is putting it mildly.

[The Magistrate]

3. This Bloc, Sir, Polls At About 7%

About a quarter of what the President's bloc manages.

The former prime minister was not a leading politician, but one of those figures described as 'a technocratic care-taker'. This simply demonstrates he has no real political footing on his own, and why this is so.

[newthinking]

4. Nope, that was just the polling for one group and when the various groups were more disparate.

And nice job deflecting from the President and PM, whom you swore up and down were not really allied with neo-nazi's in a significant way.

You ready to come down to earth yet? This is serious stuff.

In my understanding it will all depend on Poroshenko. It is still a question how moderate he is... If he is indeed moderate, we choose him over Yats (who has a foundation supported by NATO etc), and if the elections are not irregular and the return of Party of Regions (which is reforming) balances things out, then they will have a coalition that can likely get things back into normal territory.

So are you saying you would support Yats/Tymonshenko at this poiint??? After this?

[The Magistrate]

6. You Are Wrong, Sir: The Figure Refers To The Groupings

And since this one is in opposition to the President in coming parliamentary elections, all you manage to do is demonstrate you have very little grasp of the political situation in Ukraine. But that is nothing new, you have made that clear throughout your comments on the subject.

My comments, which I stand by, were that the extreme right elements were not dominant in the government in Kiev, and that their members appointed as ministers were not in control of their bureaucracies, but mere figure-heads. That was accurate. What you are hyperventilating about now is simply one more demonstration of the poor political footing these groups enjoy in Ukraine.

[newthinking]

7. No use

arguing with you. I already know how it goes.

It is a laugh that you think you know more about Ukraine than me. I am not going to expose personal information, but you are way off and should not be so sure of your armchair debating.

[The Magistrate]

11. True, Sir: Until You Can Demonstrate Grasp Of Facts And Logic, And Mature Understanding...

...you will have no joy crossing words with me.

[newthinking]

14. You are saying

I don't reflect a mature understanding? Nice swipe from a man who uses an anonymous false authority persona in conversations with others? That is absolutely hilarious.

[Union Scribe]

17. +1

I'm certain your post was or will be alerted on though. It's what happens whenever someone points out how contrived that affectation is.

[newthinking]

19. It is only stating the obvious.

But hey, I already considered it. Depends on the jury. But even if they don't get it and it gets removed it is worth it.

[independentpiney]

60. Well played, Sir nt

[karynnj]

61. If you are that knowledgeable, why the rambling OP that does not prove its subject heading

Your use of links is interesting, but they do not back the ideas you are expressing.

I do think you likely may know a huge amount about Ukraine ... and Russia. That is not a negative, but it also does not mean that your claims are correct. As to not divulging personal information - that is perfectly ok, but it then means that you can not use it as a reason you know more. In addition, don't be surprised on line if someone giving no personal information will be given less weight than others who have shared enough personal information that people understand who they are and where they are coming from.

You might also note that there is at least as high a percent of fascists in the Russian government, which you seem to have no problem with.

[sabrina 1]

32. The neo nazis won 10% of the vote in Ukraine giving them a place in the Parliament. THAT

should scare the hell out of anyone who has been watching the rise of these far right wingnut nazis who BULLY and Threaten other members of the Parliament.

The fact is that 'our guy Yatz' to use State Dept rep Victoria Nuland was lauded here by a few who themselves clearly knew little about him, 'a worm' as we called him, or the plot behind the coup, and yes, it was a coup.

Right now Kiev is once again in turmoil, with the neo nazis once again prominent in the furor.

I guess 'our guy' turned out to be what we knew he was after all.

As for the current president, he is no moderate. He has proven that with his brutal military assault on his own people. Now he has been forced to call it off, too late for all those who have unnecessarily died, because of opposition in the WEST and the COST while his country is so deeply in debt. So who paid for his failed military assault on the country?

Now he has purged the government who we were told were 'legitimate' btw, and this has caused even more turmoil in that sad country.

The US had no business helping those neo nazis, see my post above for evidence of our involvement. In fact the US has no business there at all.

Time to bring our military home from all over the world, we ARE NOT AN EMPIRE and start developing alternate energy sources. Because all these military operations, backing some of the worst and most brutal regimes because we have 'interests', everywhere it seems, is endangering THIS COUNTRY.

[The Magistrate]

36. To Translate This Into Calm English, Ma'am

A party which manages ten percent in an election in a democratic polity has made a poor showing, and cannot be viewed honestly as dominant or in control of the government.

Yatsenyuk was supported as a caretaker prime minister by the State Department because he was considered person with little political footing and with conventional views on economics, and so would be both reliable on economic legislation and only temporarily in power. These calculations were more or less correct, as events have shown.

Under the pressure of armed secession and invasion by a foreign power, any government, under any leader, will employ its military to assert its legitimate authority and defend its territory. To view this as proof someone is 'no moderate', which, by clear implication, is to call him an extremist at the least, is nonesense.

Dissolving the parliament elected before the flight of the former president and collapse of his regime in face of a broad popular uprising, and which, while it still represented legitimate authority in its actions, was no longer representative of persons loyal to Ukraine, was a proper action for a newly elected President. As in most parliamentary systems, the chief of state has not only the right but the duty to call for elections at appropriate junctures.

Russia has committed an act of aggressive war against Ukraine in furtherance of imperialist ambitions. These center on restoration of the old Russian land empire, but include control of energy resources located in the inland seas of the area.

[reorg]

41. You are obviously not familiar with electoral systems in Europe

with proportional representation.

10 percent for a new party is a major success. The German Liberals, now practically defunct, have been one of the most important political forces in Germany in the last four or five decades, they held major cabinet positions (Vice Chancellor, Foreign Office, Economic Affairs etc.) and were in government for three decades in a row, plus a number of cabinets before and after. Their best result in a federal election was 14.6 percent, their lowest 4.8 percent (last election), on average they had about 8 percent, always including "loan votes" from the CDU; their real electoral base was always closer to 3 percent or so.

A party which manages ten percent in an electoral system with proportional representation has not made a "poor showing". The ten percent mark is generally seen as a sign that they are here to stay. Other examples of influential parties with generally less than 10 percent: Greens, Left Party. Newest addition, not yet in the federal parliament: AFP, an anti-EU split-off of the Christian Conservatives, latest result in a state parliament: 10 percent.

Having reached about 10 percent, in a representational system such parties are considered significant. They can usually make or break a coalition government since grand coalitions are seldom sought or preferred.

To date, all countries in Europe have succeeded to exclude outright fascist parties from government coalitions. It has always been a "consensus among democrats" to keep it this way. Unfortunately, that seems no longer to be the case in Ukraine.

[The Magistrate]

42. The Threshold For Represntation Is Five Percent, Sir

To make or break a coalition one must be invited into it. Parties which are outliers to the system, as the Svoboda is, will not be invited in unless conditions are extraordinary. In the up-coming election for Parliament, Svoboda may well not meet the threshold campaigning on its own. Much of what might be its vote will go to the Radicals, also something of an odd duck, a personal party whose strength comes from its taking an anti-Russian stance ( understandably popular in Ukraine just now ) without mixing it up with symbols out of a past most Ukrainians do not much like either. The far right parties together would net perhaps twenty percent of the vote if they formed a unity bloc, which they probably will not do. President Poroshenko's bloc has a dominant share of the electorate at present, around forty percent, and there are several 'Christian Democrat' center-right parties he could readily assemble a majority from should his own group fail of achieving one on its own.

[reorg]

46. If the Americans are lucky

the fascists will split up once they have outlived their usefulness, but perhaps they won't.

[sabrina 1]

69. All that would be fine, if it was accurate. When people choose to take control of their own

future, which btw, did NOT HAPPEN, until 'our guy Yatz' and what we once were told, the 'legitimate' government, took over, one of their first aggressive acts was to make a language spoken by a large segment of the people 'illegal'. That sparked outrage, and btw, the new president has acknowledged the wrong headedness of that aggressive act and passed a bill legitimizing Russian.

So our man Yatz was in no way a good choice, it was his actions against people who were not part of any kind of uprising, just ordinary people trying to live their lives, that prompted Crimeans to VOTE to leave Ukraine, a very wise decision as it turned out, considering the brutal assault on the rest of that region who didn't succeed in doing the same thing. No one died in Crimea, no one was driven from their homes.

Russia never needed to invade, our guy Yatz DROVE the East out of Ukraine.

Let's stick to facts and not try to pretend that an aggressive, brutal govt headed by our disastrous choice of a 'temporary (I guess he didn't know he was temporary) steward of the nation was the cause of the rightful fear of the people of E.Ukraine that they were being targeted unfairly by this new government.

Yatz stalked out of the Government recently, and has now proven what everyone was trying to warn about. His alliances were questionable FROM THE START.

Unless the facts are acknowledged such as 'our guy Yatz was a DISASTROUS choice', nothing is going to get any better in that country.

To make it simple, there was no invasion by Russia because NONE WAS NEEDED. Our 'allies' in Kiev did all the work for Russia even if they HAD considered invading.

Boroshenko appears to have FINALLY acknowledged all of this. And it is HIS bill, giving special status to the regions of E. Ukraine who were only asking for that in the first place, that has now sparked the all too familiar violent protests once AGAIN in Kiev.

When you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

And please do not try to change the facts about the tossing out of the previous government. The West was LAUDING that government, claiming it had done 'the right thing' with NO indication that it needed to go, until NOW.

Most of us here do not suffer from amnesia. I was told, right here on DU by supporters of 'our guy Yatz' that my opposition to the coup government was wrong. Why? Because the Parliament was elected and therefore it negated the claims of 'coup'.

Well, that appears now to have been untrue, no surprise. That 'legitimate' government they were hanging their hats has now been disbanded.

It's hard to keep up with the way the supporters of this coup keep changing their minds and their stories.

But simply put, the coup Govt in Kiev, led by our man Yatz, DROVE Crimea out of Ukr and prompted those other regions to OVERWHELMINGLY vote of autonomy, NOT to annex to Russia, in order to save themselves from the brutal military and neo nazi roving gangs of thugs that were sent by Yatz to attack them.

Iow, he, this 'choice' we made, saved Russia from having to invade at all, if that was there intention.

[Xolodno]

8. Sorry, but its 7% too much.

The former PM was just useful idiot in the context of history. The fact he isn't a leading politician actually reinforces that position. Poroshenko has thus far proven a pragmatist....in my worthless opinion, his best option is to not choose any side. Make Ukraine neutral as Switzerland, trade with both EU, Non-EU and Russia...and firmly point to all opposing sides...Ukraine is not going to be an outpost to either side.

[MohRokTah]

9. If we had a parliamentary system in the US, white supremacists would poll higher than 7%

You can bank on that.

[Xolodno]

16. See my post here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5547110

[newthinking]

20. It would be more like if the Republicans openly supported KKK leaders and gave some of them

executive positions in the government, and made a special army out of KKK members. Also formed a new party with them and helped them to gain popularity.

Now, imagine how much people here would change their tune if it happened here..... That would definitely bring people into the streets.

oh, and it is more than 7%. Svoboda is 12 percent (of Parliment) alone. That is only one of many groups. Then there is right sector,UNA-UNSO, Radical Front, etc. These groups are indeed growing. Right Sector alone just formed last winter, they formed inside of maidan.



http://www.dw.de/ukrainians-veer-toward-right-wing-nationalism/a-16446159

And this is larger in Ukraine despite what a couple of posters are saying. People there are very afraid and the propaganda has been enormous in their media.

[NuclearDem]

25. ...otherwise known as the Tea Party.

[LanternWaste]

37. you keep making that unsupported claim. Your premises appear to be little more than irrational guess

"And this is larger in Ukraine despite what a couple of posters are saying. .."

You keep making that unsupported claim. Your premises appear to be little more than irrational allegations predicated wholly on bias. Sorry.

[The Magistrate]

10. Seven Percent Is Far From Dominance, However, Sir

And well within the parameters of what crops up in fairly healthy democracies with multi-party structures, as demonstrated most recently in Sweden and France, among others.

[Xolodno]

15. Sure...

...But its still too much. Any ultra-right wing bloc (or even left wing) makes a tempting target for a "unity government"...and they will always demand some influence in exchange for their support. And lets be frank, a portion of Ukraine does not favor, trust, etc. this group or any political group associated with them. And given history...can't blame them.

This is DU...were supposed to in "theory" favor progressive ideals. Not be apologist for right wing governments or governments with right wing tendencies.

Granted this 7% has a right to be represented. However, that doesn't mean they are right...in a perfect world...they would be ignored in there demands...but sadly...it doesn't work that way.

But regardless, we should be in opposition of these type of groups...if...for nothing else encourage, others not to fall in line.

Its ok to be against Putin for being anti-gay, anti-democracy, etc. But at the same time, its ok to be anti-imperialism, anti-forced ideology, etc. Its not one side vs. the other....its human rights vs. human rights. Each side battling what is acceptable in society. However, governments, media, etc. make it to be two sides...even if you don't agree with everything on one side.

We were given two choices, side with the USA narrative or the Russian narrative. I don't subscribe to either and here is my proof:

1. The USA funded and provided the overthrow of a Russian favored PM.

2. They then next "helped" a government that was anti-Moscow...and pro west that would yield to their demands.

3. Russia invaded Crimea...and area strategically important....an area the USA swore off as a cost for a friendly government on Russia's doorstep.

4. Russia encouraged and financed the revolts in eastern Ukraine.

5. Russia has forced the USA to recognize that they will not be able to incorporate Ukraine into NATO...and depriving them of access to their energy resources........

Yes....this is all about energy. If Somalia had significant oil...I guaran-damn-tee we would hold control of the nation. But Ukraine does have energy resources....hence "our interest" in a nation that was part of the Russian Empire before the USA existed. If they had no energy resources...I'd doubt the get a footnote in American Media.

In the first Gulf War...I marched with others at my college...saying "no blood for oil". My wife's family lost much in having to flee from Persia when the Shah took over. The Ukraine issue is all about energy and who controls it....the loser will be Ukraine.

[The Magistrate]

18. If By 'Apologizing For', Sir, You Intend The Classic Definition Of 'Explaining'

Then you might have something.

For I have had occasion to explain that, despite a good deal of hyperventilation and regurgitation of Russian propaganda, the government in Kiev is not dominated by neo-nazi fascists, nor do these types represent a great slice of Ukraine's population. The item being flogged above actually illustrates this: Yatsenyuk thought he was going to be standard-bearer of a real political party, the Fatherland party, in which he had been a functionary, but they went with their real, long-term leader, Ms. TYmoschenko, as most anyone could have predicted. Yatsenyuk bolted, and has sold himself as a figurehead to a collection of extreme nationalists, because no one else would have him. Neither he nor they will get much benefit from it.

As to your numbered points, I am not willing to expend the energy to go over what actually happened yet again, at this moment; I have other things to do. Even if one were to accept your presentation as fact ( which in most instances it really is not ), it remains the case that Russia has no right to political and economic dominance over Ukraine, that Russia is engaged in an overt war of aggression by any standard definition of the term in Ukraine, and that Russia is an imperialist and fascist power. Further, it is a fact that a large majority of the population in Ukraine prefers closer ties to the EU than to Russia.

[The Magistrate]

21. Here, For The Record, Is The Latest Polling Data

PoR 1.9

Batkivshchyna 8.1

Svoboda 4.5

CPU 2.9

Poroshenko Bloc ( includes UDAR ) 45.7

Radical 13.7

Civil Position 8.1

SU 4.4

Samopomich 2.0

PF 5.6


Note the commanding position of the Poroshenko Bloc, with ten times the strength of Svoboda. PF is the splinter Yatsenyuk has joined.


( edited for clarity of presentation )

[newthinking]

13. The former PM and President would not be forming this alliance if they thought

they were marginal. The arguments here, aside from being poorly informed, defy logic.

[sabrina 1]

33. 'Our guy Yatz'! Hard to admit when you are wrong, I suppose. I would rather have

been wrong. Yatz stormed out of the government not so long ago. I guess he wasn't happy to learn that he was just a puppet after all and the West preferred the WEALTHY puppet over him.

What a mess. But then everywhere we've been lately is a mess, tragic messes. See the collapse of Libya eg, Afghanistan, Iraq, and we are in Somalia btw. Another tragic mess. And now, we add another one to our long and growing list.

[Union Scribe]

12. Huge shock to see people excusing this.

[malaise]

35. +1,000 n/t

[newthinking]

23. I am curious why nobody has mentioned the "Iron Cross" that the former President and PM have on

their new party banner? No-one recognizes it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross

[The Magistrate]

27. Doubtless It Means They Are Pawns Of Prussia's Kings, Sir

Or possibly they are hinting at the emblem of the border patrol, a natural enough association for a party proclaiming itself nationalist and exclusionary, and incorporating a reclamation of conquered territory as part of its platform....

In any case, your fretting about it says more about you than it does about politics in Ukraine.

[newthinking]

28. Personal personal tusk tusk.

thanks again though for bumping the OP so more can make their own determination.

[stevenleser]

24. Once again, we Jews are touched by this sudden concern about antisemitism in eastern europe.

It has been there for a long time and is worse in Russia.

We are deeply suspicious that people who have never before seemed concerned about the rampant antisemitism in eastern europe only seem concerned now in a way that dovetails with their politics.

This reminds me of how pinkwashing is used regarding LGBT rights and various countries.

[newthinking]

29. Respect for the truth please. Antisemitism is lower in Russia than Ukraine and much of Eastern Europ

Here is a link you can use to compare. Now since you are a pundit will you not spread this false claim on the air?

http://global100.adl.org/#map/eeurope

[stevenleser]

30. As I said, we are touched by your sudden concern. I have other sources that show Russia is worst

we are touched by your sudden concern.

http://archive.adl.org/russia/russian_political_antisemitism_3.html#.VBkSZfldWSo

http://www.adl.org/press-center/c/russia-plays-the-anti-semitism-card.html

For the Anti-Defamation League, we like to say that it is as important when we say something is not anti-Semitism as when say it is. This is partly a moral principle of getting it right and partly a pragmatic perspective, a matter of credibility, wanting leaders and individuals to stand up when real anti-Semitism arises and not be turned off by false claims.

That is why it is so important to say that Russia's claims about anti-Semitism in Ukraine's revolution are simply not true. They are an effort to delegitimize the actions of the Ukrainian people and to win sympathy for Russia's defiance of international law.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26786213

Russian Jews fear anti-Semitism amid Crimea fervour
By Stephen Ennis
Members of Russia's Jewish community are voicing concern about tolerance of anti-Semitism in the media and other areas of public life, amid patriotic fervour generated by the Sochi Olympics and annexation of Crimea.

One state TV presenter even accused Jews of helping to bring about the Holocaust.
.
.
.
Evelina Zakamskaya, a presenter on state-owned news channel Rossiya 24, also got into a Holocaust controversy over a remark she made in an interview with Aleksandr Prokhanov, editor of the nationalist newspaper Zavtra.

Speaking about Jews who supported the "fascist" opponents of Mr Yanukovych in Ukraine, Prokhanov said: "Don't they realise that with their own hands they are hastening a second Holocaust?"

To which Zakamskaya replied: "They also hastened the first one."

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/the-new-russian-anti-semitism/480498.html

The New Russian Anti-Semitism
By Victor DavidoffMay. 27 2013 00:00 Last edited 18:17

Sometimes you're sorry that the Nazis didn't turn the ancestors of today's liberals into lampshades."

That shocking phrase wasn't printed in an obscure neo-Nazi newsletter but was the subheading of an article in the web version of one of the country's most widely read newspapers, Komsomolskaya Pravda. The author, Ulyana Skoibeda, is also widely read and notorious. She first came into the public eye when she proposed euthanizing newborn infants with disabilities and then took the spotlight with her fight for "racial purity" in the Russian state. She criticized the practice of inviting African soccer players into Russian teams and said "foreign citizens" like journalist Vladimir Pozner and writer Mikhail ­Veller, should be banned from television. Not long ago, Skoibeda got another 15 minutes of fame when she demanded that a text by the Russian writer Dina Rubina should not be used in a nationwide contest because "a citizen of Israel has no right to teach us" about Russia. Skoibeda, with the help of the popular newspaper Komsomolskaya Pravda, has helped take the centuries-old phenomenon of anti-­Semitism mainstream.

This time Skoibeda's ire was ignited by a post on LiveJournal by the liberal politician Leonid Gozman, who also happens to be Jewish, like most of the other subjects of Skoibeda's attacks. Gozman wrote a critical post about the television series "SMERSH," an acronym for the Soviet wartime military counterintelligence agency, because it portrayed the agency's activities in a rosy light.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Russia is notoriously the most antisemitic country in eastern europe. Nothing has changed that.

[newthinking]

31. I see you have learned to spin well. Not interested in dishonest discussion. Clearly

you are trying to save face here, or maybe you are used to the most important characteristic is not to lose an argument. I gave you a link to the definitive source. Is a forum really so important? Come on now.

So you cherry pick a paragraph to try and make the ADL look like it is arguing against it's own surveys. And what? To win a point against an anonymous poster?

In the same link:
I think of that now as the situation in Ukraine deteriorates. There is no doubt that Ukraine, like Croatia, was one of those places where local militias played a key role in the murder of thousands of Jews during World War II. It is also true that anti-Semitism has by no means disappeared from Ukraine. In recent months there have been a number of serious anti-Semitic incidents and there are at least two parties in Ukraine, Svoboda and Right Sector, that have within them some extreme nationalists and anti-Semites.

He is simply saying do not use anti-semitism in Ukraine to justify what he considers to be Russia's aggression.

My post was about the situation in Ukraine. I am anti-war and pro-truth. Not pro Putin. You are so emotionally engaged in your view that you can't even understand why I post here. So since you seem to not be interested in an even discussion and want to paint me with your own bias there is no reason to continue to engage.

Maybe you can just be a little more mannered next time you respond to one of my OPs and make your case without making personal comments about someone you know nothing about?

[stevenleser]

34. Yes, multiple links with proof shows "I'm not debating honestly". Nice try, not

[reorg]

38. Perhaps we can hold in your favor that you didn't check your sources

But I am still struggling to figure out what you are trying to say ...

1. A Russian TV presenter remarks that "they" ((some) Jewish organizations) "hastened" or "advanced" the (first) Holocaust, in response to the statement of someone she interviews: "It is strange that Jewish organizations – European and Russian – support Maidan. They do that? They do not realize that they are, with their own hands, closer to the second Holocaust?" and who paraphrases the interviewers remark "until 1933 in Europe many liberal organizations were feeding Hitler". (1)

2. A fascist party in Ukraine which received 10.44 percent of the votes in the last election joins the government after a violent uprising in which fascist militants play a decisive role. For the first time in Europe after WWII, a fascist party joins a government, receiving four ministerial posts.

So, the first point demonstrates in your opinion the dangerous prevalence of anti-Semitism in Russia, whereas the second is nothing to worry about?


(1) Far from blaming the Jews for "bringing about" the Holocaust, this remark points to the naiveté of those who would not recognize the danger poised by the Nazis at the time and remained supporters of "liberal" parties (DVP, DNVP) while they were drifting to the extreme right. Many Jewish citizens did, of course, support anti-fascist parties such as the Communists or the Social Democrats instead.

[stevenleser]

39. You struggle because you are trying to adjust facts to fit your theories instead of vice versa

ADL and other Jewish organizations, including Ukrainian Jewish organizations categorically reject that the Ukrainian revolution was primarily promulgated by neo nazis or that neo nazis were a significant group of the temporary or permanent government afterwards.

Your choice is to either say that these Jewish organizations are stupid or accept that what you have been led to believe is wrong.

[reorg]

43. I note that you didn't answer my question

Is the fact that fascists hold government positions in Ukraine less worrying to you than the fact that a journalist is pointing out a standard argument about the rise of fascism in the Weimar Republic?

[stevenleser]

52. You yourself admitted you are struggling. As a result, your question doesnt make sense. nt

[reorg]

57. I am struggling to make sense of your posts, yes

If I understand correctly, you are putting forward two points of Western propaganda:

1. Russians = very bad anti-Semites (as the example of the remark falsely twisted into "Jews made the Holocaust happen" purports to demonstrate)

2. anti-Semitic Neonazis in Ukraine's government = not that bad, insignificant, fleeting accident of history, let's talk about something else.

However, you just post these without wasting any thought, apparently. If you take a step back and check the sources, you will find it is utter nonsense, hard to believe anybody can take these propositions seriously.

[stevenleser]

64. Probably because I am neither an antisemite nor a Russian apologist like your other sources

As the Magistrate keeps telling you

[reorg]

68. I'll take your word for it

that you're not an anti-Semite.

But why do you keep playing down and distracting from the fact that Neonazis are currently members of the government in Ukraine? The Vice Prime Minister, The Minister of Defense, The Minister of Agrarian Policy and Food and the Minister of Ecology and Natural Resources of Ukraine. Also, I have not seen one word of concern or condemnation from you about the violence used during the uprising and the massacre in Odessa, nor about the manhandling of opposition representatives and TV editors we have watched with consternation, nor of the views these Neonazis in Ukraine hold, like "Ukraine is for Ukrainians, the Russians, the Poles and the Jews can go elsewhere".

Instead, we are treated with misinterpretations of some interview or other that didn't get enough media attention to be corrected later with the sorry excuse of "translation mistake" like in other such cases.

Svoboda (political party)

...

Social conservatism

Svoboda supports conservative values, and opposes abortion and gay rights.[138][139] In 2012, Human Rights Watch condemned Svoboda for disrupting a gay rights rally, called "a Sabbath of 50 perverts" in an official statement by Svoboda.[140]

Svoboda opposed legislation in 2013 that would have barred employers from discriminating against workers on the basis of their sexual orientation.[141] Journalist David Stern describes the party as a "driving force" behind anti-gay politics in Ukraine, but states that many of its members may not share all its controversial positions.[142]

In April 2013, three Svoboda MPs sponsored a bill banning abortions except in cases involving severe pathology, a medical risk to a woman's life, and rape when proven in court.[143][144] Future Vice Prime Minister Oleksandr Sych, who has long opposed abortion, was one of the authors of the bill and responded to a question about what a pregnant woman should do if she failed to prove the rape in court by encouraging women to "lead the kind of lifestyle to avoid the risk of rape, including refraining from drinking alcohol and being in controversial company."[143][144][145][146]

Allegations of neo-nazism and political extremism

Svoboda has been described as an anti-Semitic and sometimes a Neo-Nazi party by some journalists,[36][125][131] organizations that monitor hate speech,[147] Jewish organizations,[148][149] and political opponents.[55]

Svoboda advisor Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn established a "‘Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" in 2005, later changing "Joseph Goebbels" to "Ernst Jünger."[2] Mykhalchyshyn wrote a book in 2010 citing works by Nazi theorists Ernst Röhm, Gregor Strasser and Goebbels.[53][131][150] Elsewhere Mykhalchyshyn referred to the Holocaust as a "period of Light in history".[151]

...

Statements by Jewish organizations

Thirty members of the Israeli Knesset condemned the party in a signed letter addressed to the President of the European Parliament. In the letter the Israeli politicians accused Svoboda of "openly glorifying Nazi murder" and "Nazi war criminals".[163] In May 2013 the World Jewish Congress labelled the party as "neo-Nazi" and called for European governments to ban them.[164]

Ukraine’s chief rabbi Yaakov Bleich said “Svoboda is an enigma in many ways,” calling it “a right-wing, nationalist party with anti-Semitic elements in it.”[165] Vyacheslav A. Likhachev of the Eurasian Jewish Congress, said that the “party has a very anti-Semitic core in its ideology,” and that it leads to “symbolic legitimization of neo-Nazis and anti-Semitic ideology in the eyes of society.”[83]

Member of parliament with the pro-presidential Party of Regions,[165] and president of the Jewish Committee of Ukraine Oleksandr Feldman criticized Svoboda as a "party which is notorious for regularly injecting anti-Semitism into their speeches and public pronouncements" and accused the party of "rallying behind this recognition and exploited mistrust of Jews to gain popularity among some in the lower class who painfully welcomed the chance to be a part of campaigns of hate".[166][167] Feldman also writes that Svoboda has helped erode the shame associated with open expressions of anti-Semitism and other ethnic hatreds.[168

...

In 2012 international human rights organization The Simon Wiesenthal Center placed Svoboda party leader Oleg Tyahnybok fifth in its list of the top 10 anti-Semites and haters of Israel, based on his previous comments regarding Jews in Ukraine.[169] ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ukrainian_Union_%22Svoboda%22

[The Magistrate]

40. Given Your Defense Of 'Vineyard of the Saker', Sir, As A Legitimate Source Of Fact And Commentary

You are hardly the right person to take up the gage in discussing degrees of Anti-Semitism, let alone posture as a foe of it....

Here is a sample from the 'thinker' you have endorsed and defended:

"I am fully aware of the role which Jews played in the horrors of the 20th century, I am aware that they declared war on Russia first, and on Germany after that (both times the order came from organized American Jewry and Jewish banks), I loathe both Rabbinical Judaism and Zionism because both are based on self-worship and racism. I don't need lectures on all the bad things Jews have done or are still doing. Believe me, I have read more anti-Jewish books than most people here (if only because I read them all not only English, but also in Russian which has at least 10 times as many anti-Jewish books as there are in English).

I will go as far as saying that Rabbinical Judaism is, in my sincerely held conclusion, Satanic at its core and at least as evil as Wahabi Islam."

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/05/ukrainian-news-two-phone-call-leaks.html

( scroll down to the blue text )

[reorg]

44. Are you associating yourself

with the fascists in Ukraine?

You know very well that I never "endorsed and defended" any single statement by this blogger which you seem keen to repeatedly quote and link here on DU while claiming that everybody who does the same is "associating" himself with any and all statements found at this blog including the anonymous troll posters' comments.

[The Magistrate]

45. Put Bluntly, Sir, I Know You Have Defended That Blog As A Legitimate Source

You have in fact accused me of being dishonest in presenting excerpts from it which establish the character of its proprietor.

The rest of your poor attempt at diversion is not worth engaging; my comments nearby are sufficient to make the matter clear.

[reorg]

47. I have shown that you presented

excerpts from anonymous troll comments without mentioning that the owner had expressly distanced himself from such posts. Feel free to draw any appropriate conclusions yourself.

[The Magistrate]

48. For The Record, 'reorg' On 'Vineyard of the Saker'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025491094#post97

"You feel comfortable making such a claim

based on nothing else than these two quotes?

I think what he may be going on about in your first quote is the "singularity" claim, when he says "the only case of mass murder in history which always has to be attached to a number of victims". He obviously doesn't deny the mass murder.

As to the exact numbers, there seems to be some disagreement even among serious researchers, since estimates are involved:

Early calculations range from about 4.2 to 4.5 million in The Final Solution (1953) by Gerald Reitlinger (arguing against higher Russian estimates), and 5.1 million from Raul Hilberg, to 5.95 million from Jacob Lestschinsky. Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust estimate 5.59–5.86 million. A study led by Wolfgang Benz of the Technical University of Berlin suggests 5.29–6.2 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.540880

Holocaust deniers don't say the exact number of victims may be disputable or not be important, they say the Holocaust didn't happen and claim that a comparatively much smaller number of camp inmates, one million or so, may have died of typhus or other diseases. That's very different from what this "Saker blogger" says in your quote.


The second quote is taken out of context. He is distancing himself from Nazi troll posts, and the part you quoted is the introduction, where he acknowledges some of the typical Neonazi claims (the Jewish boycott of German goods, I suppose) only to demolish their relevance in the following paragraphs, which you chose not to quote.

That he loathes religious fundamentalists (I think he mentions elsewhere his similar hatred for Wahhabism) and political ideologies based on religion and/or race is an attitude that he shares with a lot of people. Perhaps you believe they are all anti-Semites, but I would take exception to that. Personally, I don't "loathe" religious people, as long as they leave me alone I don't care. But if somebody does, I don't "loathe" them either, as long there is room for rational discussion and they don't proselytize to join their club."


This is a full-throated defense, and a knowing one.

The most humorous element of it is that he actually seems to think this amounts to distancing oneself from Nazi trolls:

"I am fully aware of the role which Jews played in the horrors of the 20th century, I am aware that they declared war on Russia first, and on Germany after that (both times the order came from organized American Jewry and Jewish banks), I loathe both Rabbinical Judaism and Zionism because both are based on self-worship and racism. I don't need lectures on all the bad things Jews have done or are still doing. Believe me, I have read more anti-Jewish books than most people here (if only because I read them all not only English, but also in Russian which has at least 10 times as many anti-Jewish books as there are in English).

I will go as far as saying that Rabbinical Judaism is, in my sincerely held conclusion, Satanic at its core and at least as evil as Wahabi Islam."

A fair summary would be, then, something like this: 'Hey, don't mix me up with those Nazi whackos; I'm just a salt-of-the-earth, feet on the ground kind of guy who knows perfectly well all the evil Jews get up to in this world.'

( edited to add the 'first quote' referred to in the above defense of blatant Anti-Semitic commentary )

"I am disgusted by the modern media in which no criticisms of Jews is possible or, not without at least 3 paragraphs of disclaimers. I hate the modern "Holocaust Industry" ( As Norman Finkelstein called it) for constantly rubbing it in over and over and over and over again with the "Holocaust" and its absolutely mandatory figure of "6 millions" (the only case of mass murder in history which always has to be attached to a number of victims, the only one. Ever wondered why? )."

[reorg]

54. For the record

The part always left out in the quotes by certain posters (who are trying to deflect the discussion about fascists in Ukraine by making incoherent accusations):

(From directly above the blue print, link available upon request):

We declare that the world Jewish community, first: has nothing to do with Mr Kolomoisky, second: does not support (the actions) in Odessa, or Mariupol or any of those involved and expresses sincere sympathy. And third, says that if a Jew is involved in Nazi crimes, we will fight first him.

I find this very interesting because it perfectly illustrates something which I have been trying to hammer into the heads of the pathological Jew-haters out there for what seems like forever: YES there are Jewish oligarchs out there who are almost a perfect caricature of the loathsome Jewish plutocrat-thug and they are very bit as bad as the worst anti-Jewish propaganda likes to portray them. But NO, they are not typical of a Jewish community which is every bit as complex and diverse as any other.

and, notably:

Personal announcement: dealing with Nazis and other racist trolls
With the recent sharp rise of readers of this blog (well over 1'000'000 visits in total and 10'000+ visitors per day) a equally sharp rise of Nazi and other racist troll clearly happened. My policy in the past has been to either crush their sophomoric and ignorant views by posting rebuttals, but now I simply do not have the time to play Kindergarten cop with these obsessive-compulsive Jew haters. And yet, I cannot simply censor their posts because that would contradict the core value of my blog - complete freedom of thought. This, of course, puts me in front of a dilemma: do I let these cretins pollute my blog, or do I give up on my ideal of freedom of though and speech? I wish I had a "virtual sandbox" were I could send these folks and let them play together, talking about Jew-this, Jew-that, Hitler-this, Hitler-that, but I don't have that. So what I propose to do here is to post a short appeal to them and to the rest of you, mentally sane and educated commentators, in the hope that this will help. ...

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.de/2014/03/personal-announcement-dealing-with.html

[The Magistrate]

56. Do, Please, Continue, Sir

Because all these comments do is emphasize just how deep in the slime he is, since he imagines it is not Jew-hate to say this:

"I am fully aware of the role which Jews played in the horrors of the 20th century, I am aware that they declared war on Russia first, and on Germany after that (both times the order came from organized American Jewry and Jewish banks), I loathe both Rabbinical Judaism and Zionism because both are based on self-worship and racism. I don't need lectures on all the bad things Jews have done or are still doing. Believe me, I have read more anti-Jewish books than most people here (if only because I read them all not only English, but also in Russian which has at least 10 times as many anti-Jewish books as there are in English).

I will go as far as saying that Rabbinical Judaism is, in my sincerely held conclusion, Satanic at its core and at least as evil as Wahabi Islam."

As I said, his 'defense' boils down to something like this: 'Don't mix me up with some extreme Nazi, for heaven's sake! I'm just a well-informed fellow who knows all the devilry Jews get up to in the world!'

[reorg]

58. You can debate this with the blogger in question

your opinions or his don't affect me in any way.

[The Magistrate]

59. Nothing To Debate, Sir: He Is A Raving Anti-Semite, You Defend Him

You might as well suggest debating whether the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

[reorg]

62. I linked a map and a video

neither of which were original content from this site (the blogger only provided English translations).

Then you proceeded by claiming I "associated" myself with everything posted at this site by providing these links.

I never "defended" any statement by the blogger, I simply pointed out, in response to your and similar attacks by others that these statements have been taken out of context or were mischaracterizations. That is not a defense, that's clarifying. I never "supported" these statements and don't see why I should.

Getting back to the actual topic at hand: why do you even bring up the blogger in this thread when we are discussing the role of Neonazis in Ukraine? You seem eager to belittle their significance whereas others are ashamed and worried that the "West" is largely ignoring them. What is it, are you against Neonazis in general or do you make exceptions?

[The Magistrate]

63. And You Repeat Your Defense Here, Sir, Even As You Say You Do Not Defend Him

To state that something is taken out of context, or mis-characterized, is to defend. One need not even get into the question of whether anything was actually taken out of context, in a manner that would distort its meaning, or was in any way mis-characterized, to recognize that your claims such was done are a defense of the person. Defending him, claiming he is not really an Anti-Semite, when it is abundantly obvious from his own words that he is, is supporting him. People who defend and support a raving Anti-Semite cut a poor figure decrying Anti-Semitism in other directions. Such persons can rightly be regarded as having no real objection to the bigotry, but rather simply find it a convenient cudgel to try and use in belaboring people they dislike for other reasons, because they think use of it will gain some mileage with people who are genuinely affronted by bigotry. This is elementary stuff, and your blindness to it only makes it more likely that you over-look a good many other things, and so calls into serious question the worth of your opinions and analysis, and whether things you take to be facts, or state to be facts, actually are.

In regard to the political situation in Ukraine, I have simply stated facts. It is a fact that the neo-nazi parties have only small footing in the Kiev government, and in the voting public loyal to the Kiev government. This fact makes claims that the Kiev government is a Nazi government false, and in most cases knowingly false, or in short, deliberate lies. This is in no way defense of the expressed views of neo-nazis present in Ukraine, nor in any way a defense or vindication of their character.

[reorg]

65. loyal to the Kiev government with its Neonazi ministers, yes

which you continue to belittle as having "small footing" when they actually represent 10 percent of the electorate.

These Nazi thugs have free reign in parliament when they are pushing other representatives away from the lectern, beating them up in front of cameras for everyone to see while the president of that parliament was watching and at the same time evicting from parliament the victims of such attacks. That president is the same person who is a founding member of the new "People's party" which intends to compete with the Nazis for the nationalist vote.

No, the main proponents of this government are Neoliberals. But they welcomed the Nazis to join because they were needed. For getting a majority and for the violence. I understand this is a major embarrassment for the "West" and they would like to see the Nazis go away quickly, or at least be more quiet about their beliefs and methods and concentrate on attacking Russia. We'll see how this plays out under worsening economic conditions for the people.

[The Magistrate]

66. To Call The Kiev Government A Nazi Government, Sir, Remains False To Fact

And will continue to be false to fact no matter how often you repeat it, and how deeply you desire it to be taken as true by people who read your deliberate mis-statements of fact.

The fact that you claim a group commanding ten percent of the vote has a dominant position certainly demonstrates something, though whether it is numeric illiteracy or desperation at the flop-sweat level, I cannot yet say for sure.

The only demonstrated acts of imperialism in Ukraine, or of foreign subversion of it, are the actions of Russia, in establishing an armed secessionist movement in the east using special forces infiltrators, who in some cases openly established themselves as chiefs of self-proclaimed governments, leading first to the annexation by conquest of Crimea, and then to civil war, in which the secessionists were only sustained by Russian arms and soldiers, eventually brought in formed units at brigade strength.

[stevenleser]

67. Which the ADL and other Jewish groups says is a lie and Russian apologia.

Why are Jewish groups, which would have the most to lose from NeoNazi's taking power, saying that what your are talking about is B.S.?

[leftynyc]

51. Same here

Really, really touched. The fact is both sides in this conflict have rabid anti-semites. Arguing which side has more is juvenile nonsense.

[nationalize the fed]

49. The US does not have any moral authority to involve itself

in what Ukraine does or does not do

regardless of what Joe Biden's son feels.

[The Magistrate]

50. Neither Does Russia, Sir

So do please let us know when you have a point.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

53. Parubiy hasn't been a member of Svoboda in over 10 years.

So your claim that "Parubiy is one of the heads of Svoboda" is inaccurate/misleading right off the bat.

The truth as to the situation is far more muddier than the black and white picture you attempt to paint:

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Alleged-links-to-neo-Nazi-groups-of-fighters-on-both-sides-of-Ukrainian-civil-war-374981

[The Magistrate]

55. 'Zombie Facts', Sir, Shamble Ever Onwards...

That is a very interesting article.

Worth noting, in regard to Russian neo-nazi participation, that there is a sturdy rumor Yatsenyuk is of Jewish ancestry. There has been a common presentation of the Kiev government as being composed of Jews, even as it is accused of being dominated by Nazis. Consistency is not a strong-point in the agit-prop.

Mr. Parubiy has joined himself to some pretty unsavory characters here, though, and does himself no favors by membership in that body. The party is largely a splinter off 'Fatherland', and so could have some claim to respectability on its own, but these junior-league 'freikorps' types may be bent on trouble and destabilization aimed at Kiev in the future. I expect they will be contained, but otherwise respectable people ought not to lend them countenance.

[Purveyor]

70. kick. Thanks for posting. +1 eom