HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Terrorists would never at...

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 11:39 PM

Terrorists would never attack subways or trains. Who ever heard of such a thing?

August 4, 1974

San Benedetto Val di Sambro, Italy



A bomb explodes on the Italicus Express train. Responsibility was claimed by the neo-fascist terrorist organization Ordine Nero.



March 20, 1995

Tokyo, Japan



The Tokyo subway sarin attack, usually referred to in the Japanese media as the Subway Sarin Incident (地下鉄サリン事件 Chikatetsu Sarin Jiken?), was an act of domestic terrorism perpetrated on March 20, 1995 in Tokyo, Japan by members of the religious movement Aum Shinrikyo.

In five coordinated attacks, the perpetrators released sarin on several lines of the Tokyo subway, killing 13 people, severely injuring 50 and causing temporary vision problems for nearly 1,000 others. The attack was directed against trains passing through Kasumigaseki and Nagatachō, home to the Japanese government. It is the most serious attack to occur in Japan since the end of World War II.


March 11, 2004

Madrid, Spain



The 2004 Madrid train bombings (also known in Spain as 11-M) were nearly simultaneous, coordinated bombings against the Cercanías commuter train system of Madrid, Spain, on the morning of 11 March 2004 – three days before Spain's general elections and two and a half years after the September 11 attacks in the United States. The explosions killed 191 people and wounded 1,800. The official investigation by the Spanish judiciary found that the attacks were directed by an al-Qaeda-inspired terrorist cell, although no direct al-Qaeda participation has been established. Though they had no role in the planning or implementation, the Spanish miners who sold the explosives to the terrorists were also arrested.


July 7, 2005

London, England



The 7 July 2005 London bombings (often referred to as 7/7) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks in central London, which targeted civilians using the public transport system during the morning rush hour.

On the morning of Thursday, 7 July 2005, four British Islamist men detonated four bombs—three in quick succession aboard London Underground trains across the city and, later, a fourth on a double-decker bus in Tavistock Square. As well as the four bombers, 52 civilians were killed and over 700 more were injured in the attacks, the United Kingdom's worst terrorist incident since the 1988 Lockerbie bombing as well as the country's first ever suicide attack.


11 July 2006

Mumbai, India



The 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings were a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai, the capital of the Indian state of Maharashtra and the nation's financial capital. The bombs were set off in pressure cookers on trains plying the Western line of the Suburban Railway network. 209 people were killed and over 700 were injured.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_involving_railway_systems

--------------------------------------------------------

We cannot go back in time. We cannot undrop the bombs. We cannot unfire the missiles. We cannot uninvade Iraq, we cannot unvote for the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

I hope the Iraqi PM is a lying sack of shite. I hope that everyone who is essentially saying, "No problem. No one is going to attack trains or subways. They don't have the capability or desire" is right. I absolutely hope I am merely some blowhard paranoid asshole worried about imaginary boogeymen.

But bombing, and even gassing, trains and subways is not that far fetched. It has been done by terrorists of various ideologies several times in the past.

We have to deal with people who would deliberately harm the innocent, be they Islamic terrorists, right wing or left wing American terrorists, whoever they are and whatever they believe, in an effective manner.

49 replies, 7810 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 49 replies Author Time Post
Reply Terrorists would never attack subways or trains. Who ever heard of such a thing? (Original post)
FrodosPet Sep 2014 OP
Scootaloo Sep 2014 #1
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #2
delrem Sep 2014 #3
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #12
Scootaloo Sep 2014 #4
zappaman Sep 2014 #7
Scootaloo Sep 2014 #28
Electric Monk Sep 2014 #5
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #13
Autumn Sep 2014 #48
bobduca Sep 2014 #6
zappaman Sep 2014 #8
Electric Monk Sep 2014 #9
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #15
pinboy3niner Sep 2014 #16
Electric Monk Sep 2014 #19
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #21
pinboy3niner Sep 2014 #23
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #22
TexasMommaWithAHat Sep 2014 #47
JayhawkSD Sep 2014 #10
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #18
JayhawkSD Sep 2014 #32
snooper2 Sep 2014 #33
tenderfoot Sep 2014 #11
grahamhgreen Sep 2014 #38
SomethingFishy Sep 2014 #14
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #17
SomethingFishy Sep 2014 #20
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #24
Nobel_Twaddle_III Sep 2014 #25
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #27
cali Sep 2014 #26
Donald Ian Rankin Sep 2014 #29
FrodosPet Sep 2014 #30
cali Sep 2014 #34
Donald Ian Rankin Sep 2014 #40
951-Riverside Sep 2014 #31
KurtNYC Sep 2014 #35
hobbit709 Sep 2014 #36
Iggo Sep 2014 #37
Jamastiene Sep 2014 #39
MohRokTah Sep 2014 #41
Jamastiene Sep 2014 #43
MohRokTah Sep 2014 #45
tenderfoot Sep 2014 #46
MohRokTah Sep 2014 #49
MohRokTah Sep 2014 #42
RedCappedBandit Sep 2014 #44

Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 11:43 PM

1. No doubt you will be enlisting to protect us, yes FrodosPet?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #1)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 11:46 PM

2. I'm afraid I can't. Ineligible (unless you can cover my back surgery and have some connections)

I am too old and too broken down. And I already have enlisted and served, when I was much younger and healthier.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 11:50 PM

3. well, don't be *too* terrified about using the subway.

Unless it's like "orange alert" and GWB is baiting the airwaves, and you're too upset to think.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to delrem (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:24 AM

12. I plan on taking an Amtrak to Chicago, maybe in early December, maybe next year

I might get killed in a car wreck on the way to the station. The train might derail in a pure bit of bad luck. I may have a heart attack or stroke in the lavatory. I could trip over my own feet and hit my head. Maybe I'll get food poisoning or Ebola. Who knows, a meteor or chunk of blue ice might fall from the sky and take me out. Something sometime is gonna kill me. Hopefully much later than sooner. I'm still going to Chicago on Amtrak for a couple days when I can afford it.

It's not about personal fear. I've been blessed to already have lived a pretty full, pretty cool life. Very little cash in my pocket for most of it, and some severe heartbreaks and disappointments. But I still found friends. I found smiles and adventure. I still found pride and purpose even when I was homeless in Houston and walked around picking up garbage because it was the right thing to do. So I'm good with my own life.

My fear is for civilization. Not only here in America, but in London and Paris and Baghdad and Raqqa. Alas, some people who want to deliberately cause death and destruction will have to die in a horribly brutal way to protect the largest number of innocents in this world. Yes, innocents too close to the enemy will also die in the process. But I believe, with a heavy heart and not some oooh rahhh bloodlust, that certain people and resources have to be disabled to stop the very real threat of terrorism.

I'm sorry I feel that way. I wish I didn't. It sucks a lot more than anyone here will ever believe.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 11:52 PM

4. Oh, that's okay. I'm sure that you can go join up with the "rebels"

 

GO man. Protect us fro mthe things you want us to shit our pants in terror over.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scootaloo (Reply #4)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:00 AM

7. Or perhaps you could re-enlist?

Seems to me he explained why he couldn't re-enlist.
What's your excuse and when did you serve?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to zappaman (Reply #7)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 02:36 AM

28. I'm not the one squawking about how terrified we all need to be

 

If you people are really so worried, I'm sure your local recruiter would love to hear from you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 11:58 PM

5. You're still more likely to have a car accident on the way to or from the station.

 

EVERYBODY PANIC!!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Electric Monk (Reply #5)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:29 AM

13. You are absolutely right! The chances of ME personally dying from terrorism are pretty small

For a detailed explanation of what I am really scared of:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025586609#post12

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Reply #13)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 02:47 PM

48. This is a detailed explanation of what I'm terrified of.

The thought of terrorism, is nothing as far as I am concerned, in fact it doesn't even rank on my list of frightening things, the last one one of which is haunted houses on Halloween.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024576897

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Thu Sep 25, 2014, 11:59 PM

6. No Scaremongering please

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:05 AM

8. I guess all the DUers laughing at these threats

Would agree with Bush when he dismissed the PDB that said Bin Laden was determined to attack the US.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to zappaman (Reply #8)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:15 AM

9. Please point to previous replies that are laughing it off.

 

I see:

No doubt you will be enlisting to protect us, yes FrodosPet?

You're still more likely to have a car accident on the way to or from the station.

and

No Scaremongering please



and then there's you, making shit up and defending ShrubCo.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Electric Monk (Reply #9)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:40 AM

15. I can't re-enlist

I'm a midwestern White/Native American guy with degenerative disc disease and probably diabetes who would be a combat liability, not an asset. So I don't think the FSA or Shia or Kurds are in any hurry for me to join up.

And I am well aware the list of shit that is more likely to kill me is a pretty long one. I'm not going to quit living. But I am not going to take unnecessary risks, either.

As for scaremongering: I don't want people shitting their pants. I want them opening their eyes to a legitimate problem that must be dealt with.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Electric Monk (Reply #9)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:45 AM

16. I've seen posts ridiculing the notion that subways would be terrorist targets

So pointing out accurately that subways have been terrorist targets is a valid point.

How serious this purported threat is to the U.S. is debatable, but dismissing subways as a realistic target is not. It doesn't help the case when someone begins by mocking something that is a proven fact. That's not a good starting point.

And no, I didn't save links to those posts, but they shouldn't be hard to find.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #16)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 01:11 AM

19. Anywhere people congregate, or any bottleneck is a potential target. This isn't BreakingNews™. nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Electric Monk (Reply #19)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 01:17 AM

21. That's why the post is in GD, not LBN n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Electric Monk (Reply #19)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 01:24 AM

23. Which makes it all the more WTF when some ridicule that

Which was my point, in case you didn't notice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Electric Monk (Reply #9)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 01:20 AM

22. "Well, is everyone afraid of the subway threat, yet?"

"Please point to previous replies that are laughing it off."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025585337

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Reply #22)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 02:39 PM

47. I don't think anyone doesn't understand that the subway

can be and has been targeted.

And people here do have weird senses of humor.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:16 AM

10. Bill Maher had a point.

 

I'm not really a big fan of the man, but I think he had it right when he said, "America needs to stop shitting in its pants."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JayhawkSD (Reply #10)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 01:08 AM

18. He also said the following

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Reply #18)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 09:38 AM

32. Which does not negate the point that...

 

when someone voices a threat to us it is not necessary for us to shit our pants, dig a foxhole, climb into it and demand that the president bomb the shit out of everybody who doesn't look like us.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Reply #18)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 09:42 AM

33. And he was 100% correct

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:16 AM

11. Republicans have done more damage to train travel and public transportation than terrorists could...

dream of.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tenderfoot (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 09:59 AM

38. + 1,000,000

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:30 AM

14. The fact that it's not that far fetched is why it's being used to scare you..

With ISIS reporting numbers of 30,000 on the high side, it's amazing to me the amount of supposed destruction they are going wreck upon us. Lindsay Graham said "If the President doesn't do something they will come here and kill us all". Sorry, not gonna get all worked up over it, and I'll be on public transportation tomorrow.

Oh and BTW this "threat" was debunked not an hour after it was made:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/iraqi-report-isis-subway-threat-knocked-down-n211496

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #14)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 12:56 AM

17. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Like I said, I hope it turns out that the Iraqi PM is full of dung. Maybe the danger was diffused by the attack against Khorasan. If so, fantastic. I need an affordable vacation. I want to go nerd out at the Museum of Science and Industry, and catch some blues and beer and deep dish in peace and safety.

The fact remains. Terrorists have attacked trains and subways in the past. They are cheap and easy targets for a small splinter cell, or even an ambitious lone wolf. We shouldn't live in paranoia, but we need to stop people who want to do it again.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Reply #17)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 01:17 AM

20. You want to stop them? We have been killing terrorists for 11 years now.

Invasions, drone strikes, Black Ops, air strikes. All we've done is create more terrorists.

The fact remains. We are doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. And the fact remains that when it suits us, terrorists are our allies.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #20)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 01:52 AM

24. The problem is not 11 years old. It is 1382 years old.

The Origins Of The Shiite-Sunni Split

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2007/02/12/7332087/the-origins-of-the-shiite-sunni-split

~ snip ~

The original split between Sunnis and Shiites occurred soon after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, in the year 632.

"There was a dispute in the community of Muslims in present-day Saudi Arabia over the question of succession," says Augustus Norton, author of Hezbollah: A Short History. "That is to say, who is the rightful successor to the prophet?"

Most of the Prophet Muhammad's followers wanted the community of Muslims to determine who would succeed him. A smaller group thought that someone from his family should take up his mantle. They favored Ali, who was married to Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah.

"Shia believed that leadership should stay within the family of the prophet," notes Gregory Gause, professor of Middle East politics at the University of Vermont. "And thus they were the partisans of Ali, his cousin and son-in-law. Sunnis believed that leadership should fall to the person who was deemed by the elite of the community to be best able to lead the community. And it was fundamentally that political division that began the Sunni-Shia split."

~ snip ~

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 02:05 AM

25. My government wants me to be afraid of ISIL or ISIS.


I am more fared of those hire with my tax dollars to protect and serve me then I am muslin men halfway around the planet. Our police, Deputy’s and State Patrol have killed more of us then terrorist has since 9/11.
It is time to demand a change.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nobel_Twaddle_III (Reply #25)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 02:24 AM

27. No, they want you to not have to be afraid of the Daesh

I may be wrong - I have been many times in my life - but I suspect they are far more interested in degrading the capabilities of the Daesh and other armed extremists than they are of scaring you.

Hmmm, wild thought, but perhaps the fact that we have been watching them and sometimes bombing them might be a big part of the reason that they have not been successful attacking us? It definitely was not from a lack of desire on their part.

As for power hungry trigger happy racist cops? Yes, that's fuqqed up and needs to be fixed as well. I am not about to argue against that. But it is not an either or thing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 02:16 AM

26. If it's so damned easy, why have we spent a fucking trillion on homeland security?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 02:42 AM

29. There are a lot of trains, so the threat *per person* is negligible.

Yes, more attempted terrorist attacks on the West at some point in the next 10 years seems like a near certainty.

Yes, some of those attacks may succeed.

Yes, some of those attacks may be on trains.

But the number of people likely to be killed by terrorism in the West in the next 10 years, barring use of WMD (which is not a completely safe assumption, but seems unlikely) is tiny compared to the likely death toll from, say, traffic, or guns, or cancer, or even horses.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #29)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 02:59 AM

30. They ALL need to be dealt with

Like I said in another reply, it's not an either/or thing.

We need intelligent, well trained, committed people to advance medical science so we can find effective cures and treatments for the various types of cancers (it's not one singular disease with one singular cure, folks).

We need well designed roads, safe cars, and well trained attentive drivers who are not intoxicated to reduce the daily massacre on the streets of Earth.

We need a culture that is not angry and not greedy and not hostile and dismissive of the socially awkward so that perhaps people will quit shooting each other.

And when someone, be they Hassan in Tikrit or Joey in Des Moine, decides they want to shoot, bomb, behead, etc innocents, we need well trained people with a commitment to serving the common good to stop them ASAP.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Reply #30)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 09:47 AM

34. it damned well is an either/or thing.

 

we are spending obscene amounts of money on war and security related stuff, and comparatively little on all kinds of urgent problems.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Reply #30)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 11:08 AM

40. No, you're wrong, because every proposed mitigation measure has a cost.


"Need to" is meaningless in this context. We can't reduce any of these risks to zero; what we can do is choose to use or not use various
measures to reduce or mitigate risk.

These measures are a long-way from cost-free.

And many measures to mitigate terrorism will cost more than the likely benefit.

So yes, basically it is "either/or": either we can spend money on mitigating the risk of terrorism, or we can spend it on other things; either we can impose onerous restrictions on people to reduce the risk of terrorism, or we can have those freedoms at the cost of increased risk of being murdered.

And in the USA, measures to mitigate the risk of terrorism have already gone far further, and cost more, than is sensible.

That's *not* to say that there might not be other, more cost-efficient, steps worth taking. But it *is* to say that the total amount of money and "imposition" spent on reducing the risk of terrorism should probably be reduced, not increased.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 03:02 AM

31. Here's the thing FrodosPet

 

We have to deal with people who would deliberately harm the innocent, be they Islamic terrorists, right wing or left wing American terrorists, whoever they are and whatever they believe, in an effective manner.



All the intel in the world didnt stop the Boston Bombing, The Sandy Hook Elementary School Massacre, The LAX Shooting, The Chris Dorner Rampage so yeah bad shit happens in an open and free society but no amount of curtailing freedoms, checkpoints, patdowns or fear mongering is going to prevent someone from doing something bad.

Accept it and move on.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 09:51 AM

35. Attacking, even threatening to attack, electric powered public transit will get more people to burn

more gasoline commuting by car instead of train.

Oil is the primary reason we are so concerned with the ME so if the terrorists really want us out of the ME, why promote more use of gasoline?

Many parts of the story we are being given about ISIL/ISIS/IS/Daesh don't add up.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 09:54 AM

36. 35 times more likely to be killed by the police than in a terror incident-especially if you're black

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 09:58 AM

37. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand I'm STILL not afraid of terrorists.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 11:07 AM

39. "left wing American terrorists" ???

Do what now? I was giving your paranoia a bit of my time and consideration until you uttered that phrase. No such animal.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jamastiene (Reply #39)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 11:14 AM

41. "no such animal"

 



Terrorists come from ALL extremes, regardless.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MohRokTah (Reply #41)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 11:16 AM

43. He was as far from left wing as they get. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jamastiene (Reply #43)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 11:18 AM

45. Ted Kazinski was a left wing terrorist

 

That is an undeniable fact.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MohRokTah (Reply #45)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 02:31 PM

46. Based on what... that he didn't like technology.

He sounds like a luddite as opposed to a liberal.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tenderfoot (Reply #46)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 02:57 PM

49. Read his manifesto, he was extreme left. eom

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 11:15 AM

42. The police and security presence in Chicago based public transport has been stepped up.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FrodosPet (Original post)

Fri Sep 26, 2014, 11:18 AM

44. Gosh, you're right. Let's all live in perpetual fear!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread