Dominant Male Atheist Leaders Seem to Have a Problem with Women

[LexVegas]

Many of the most prominent leaders of New Atheism are quick to express sexist ideas.

http://www.alternet.org/belief/dominant-male-atheist-leaders-seem-have-problem-women

[brooklynite]

1. We have leaders?

Did I miss a memo?

[tridim]

5. My first reaction as well. I do not want or need a leader to follow.

Nobody speaks for me, my atheism is my own business.

[trotsky]

9. Many religious minds can't picture atheism as anything BUT a competing "religion."

We see this on the right wing a lot, but unfortunately there are more than a few Democrats that cling to the notion as well.

Thus atheism, has "leaders" and "dogma" and all that jazz.

[LanternWaste]

38. Heck, some people even believe that white is a color...

Heck, some people even believe that white is a color...

[hifiguy]

41. Yep. There are "prominent" atheists

who are publicly outspoken, but the idea of "atheist leaders" bounces off the brain at a strange angle.

[Initech]

11. Did you get the memo? I didn't.

[Warpy]

24. Apparently we also have dogma and a Pope

who happens to be any uppity atheist who has written the most recent book on the subject.

Atheist bashers are disappointingly unoriginal.

[JHB]

33. We have memos?

[Orrex]

39. They were handed out at the meeting

Wait. We had a meeting?

[edgineered]

42. Yes, we had a meeting

It was a meeting of the minds.
Everyone made a mental note.
Some came by proxy.
No one was there in spirit.

Remember?

[JHB]

87. Apparently it had faith-based meeting minutes, and I disbelived them

[elleng]

60. Heck, I wouldn't READ a 'memo.'

By definition 'we're' NOT organized!

[MohRokTah]

2. I've followed some pretty outspoken atheists on Youtube for some time.

AronRa is cool.

I was amazed watching Thunderf00t become a raging misogynist, though. Never would have thought it of him.

[sharp_stick]

3. One of the nice things about being an atheist

none of these pricks leads me. In fact the idea that atheism needs leaders is pretty much opposite to the idea of atheism to begin with. Why would the denial of existence of something need some douchebag to be a leader.

[madokie]

47. I don't believe in any of it

so I'm not even sure I can be called an atheist. They'll be no difference between my death and the death of a bug that hits the windshield, I truly believe that.

Had a friend who died from cancer and he said if there was anything out there he'd send me a signal. Been years and I still haven't got anything LOL

[LittleBlue]

4. Are these like cardinals?

Archbishops?

As an atheist, I recognize no leader and no movement. Those in the OP represent small groups who organize like theists, sell their books and pretend to represent us when they don't. Most of them seem like they're trying to make a buck from it. Sound familiar?

The words "atheist leaders" should never, ever be in a headline because we have none.

[whatthehey]

6. Leaders?

American Atheists is the major organization which actually has leaders, (people actually elected and chosen to you know, lead, as opposed to people who give talks about atheism.)

Founded by a woman, it has had female leaders for 45 of its 51 years. Neither male leader is mentioned in this predictable hit piece.

[immoderate]

7. Some men have problems with women. Atheists are not excluded.

Being an atheist does not imply enlightenment about women's rights. Sorry about that.

--imm

[temporary311]

8. I always thought

that one of the perks of being an atheist was that we didn't have any leaders or Popes or Caliphs or Grand Poobahs. Certainly nobody that we have to twist ourselves into apologetic pretzels over whenever they say or do something stupid. That and sleeping in on Sundays.

Still, it's sad that while some folks are able to shake off the superstitious/supernatural aspects of religion, they can't shake off some of the cultural stuff like the ingrained misogyny.

[NCTraveler]

10. So do some DUers. What's your point?

Why would anyone think Atheists are above the fray. Makes no sense. They can be ignorant jackasses just like everyone else. Why would Atheists be any different? Atheists, just like other groups, have the best of the best and the worst of the worst. Some even use their lack of belief in religion to do some pretty brutal things. Some take that understanding to do beautiful things.

[Yavin4]

12. Atheism is a rejection of a theism. It's not a group or organization.

So, how can it have leaders?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. Well, imagine that. Whoda thunk it.

[BillZBubb]

14. Too funny! Atheist leaders!!!!

Where do people come up with crap like this?

[cyberswede]

21. I preside over all the non-stamp-collectors in my area.

they just don't know it.

[edhopper]

15. Do the Submissive

Male Atheist Leaders have a problem as well.

[gollygee]

16. "Some prominent athiests"

Would have been a better headline, to keep people steering off into the "athiests don't have leaders" lane.

Yes, athiests don't have leaders. But it's still worth noting that religion isn't what causes misogyny - athiests can hold these views too, and some prominent (though I think that just means LOUD in this case) athiests do.

[Scootaloo]

19. It could be argued...

That these people, while not religious themselves, grow up and live in a world that is still strongly, strongly shaped and informed by outlooks and opinions derived from religious bases. Absolutely they should know better, but like racism, this shit gets hammered into the head constantly, from your first day in the world.

[liberal_at_heart]

25. well of course religion isn't the cause of misogyny. It's just a tool that has been used by

many over the centuries to gain power and money by means of misogyny, racism, fear, anger, and hatred. There are millions of quiet, kind hearted, peaceful religious people all over the world. The reason we don't hear from them is because they are not the ones trying to gain power. Religion is just one tool that people use to gain power. There are many tools in which to instill fear and hatred into people to acquire power. I am not going to comment on the OP. It's an inflammatory post and the poster only has a few posts under their belt. Enough said.

[edgineered]

26. Not so sure about the infallatory part, there seems to be agreement here.

As for the poster only having a few posts, I salute him or her with a rec.

edit him // him or her. sorry

[snooper2]

28. It's Alternet LOL,

[Sheldon Cooper]

34. Yes, as always, it becomes a quibble about a single word, rather than a consideration of

the overall picture. No better way to derail!

[Orrex]

40. What exactly is the overall picture, in this context?

Since there's no "overall group" of atheists, the article is dishonestly creating the impression of a godless organization of he-man-woman-haters.


It's sensationalist click-bait.

[Marr]

78. Your contention is that atheism is, generally speaking, misogynistic?

I look forward to your brilliant insights on this topic.

[Hosnon]

82. Easy solution:

Don't use sloppy language.

[edgineered]

17. There are some atheists who are followers.

Lets exam them for a moment and ask a few questions.

The 'self proclaimed atheists' who follow a leader show the world that they still have issues with belief in a god or gods. They are still attached to the structures of religious belief, but by whatever discontentment they hold from their own experiences with churches, the belief in god(s) still exists. They are merely unhappy, doubting members of the religious society and use the term atheist as a means to show displeasure. Consider it like a scolded child refusing to eat a hot dog because he wanted pizza.

Every atheist I know can tell the difference, unlike the media and other ill advised and unknowing person or entity. For the latter we suggest you read the article because it says what you want to hear, and it tells us who you really are.

[Iggo]

18. Dominant males seem to have a problem with women.

News.Fucking.Flash.

[edgineered]

20. Would you like to hear a sexist atheist idea? Here's a good one.

When the time arrives that our species is nearly gone, and only a few hold the key to the survival of humans, all of them will also eventually die. At the point where only one person is left alive the odds of continued survival are either 1 or 0. If the last one alive is a woman, we may make it.

Is that sexist enough?

[Warpy]

22. All "domintant male leaders" seem to have a problem with women.

After all, the organizations most concerned with keeping women silent, repressed and obedient are our religions, all of them.

Atheist woman haters are small potatoes in comparison with the ones who cite the power of a god backing up their woman hating.

[Feral Child]

23. "Outspoken Male Atheist" has a problem with women, perhaps.

Two things:


1. Atheist don't have leaders; there's no need for someone to teach or preach.

2. I'm an atheist, have been for @ least 55 years. I like women, respect women, and enjoy the company of women.


We're not a movement, we're just individuals that reject the premise of a deity.

[The2ndWheel]

27. It's sort of like right-to-work vs. union

[Feral Child]

29. I'm struggling with your reply.

Your example is extremely partisan, mostly R2W supporters are Republicans, at least in my view (but I began life as a Union-Democrat).

The only connect I can make is The Saved (tm) versus The Realists. Am I missing something?

Seriously, not trying to pick a fight or insult you, I'm just not getting it.

[The2ndWheel]

37. Any kind of individual/collective situation really

I just picked one that's always talked about. To show, what I think, is the complex make up of a human being. Different mindsets at play.

With unions/religions, you have to pay your dues, go to meetings, participate in that community, etc. With atheists/r2w's, you reject that, and you go your own way.

It's not the world's most perfect analogy, but that's why I said it's sort of like it. A small slice of life's pie. Always different contexts and variables and all that included in anything.

[Feral Child]

46. Oh, I get it now.

Yes, an imperfect analogy, but valid.

[mr blur]

30. There IS no movement!

Atheist don't have or need leaders to tell us what to do. You're thinking of religion. If you're concerned about sexist, misogynistic attitudes then, again, you're talking about religion. Worst are the followers of Islam. Not far behind are the Catholics and the Jewish religion (NOT Jewish people, the religion, designed to keep women in what is considered their place).

Yes, no doubt some atheists are sexist or misogynist (just as some of us are black, Asian, Russian, gay, transgendered, old, young, smart, stupid - you know... people). It is a problem with societies as a whole not one instigated by Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris. And yes, it should be pointed out where it occurs but to act as if society as a whole treated women fairly until a couple of people who happen to be atheists said something insensitive is not only to ignore the real problem but to play right into the hands of those pushing this agenda.

It's not atheists who are keeping women down and treating them as inferiors; it's not atheists who are beheading people or stoning 'adulterous' women to death or abusing children and protecting the rapists.

[procon]

59. THIS!

Very well writ indeed.

[seabeyond]

31. they now have evo psych, the new religion in the name of science, to promote their patriarchy.

no different than any of the religions we study. just for the non believer.

[tkmorris]

36. Who does?

[YoungDemCA]

48. A group of people who pride themselves on being enlightened and rational

and intellectually superior to the rest of the population, because they happen to reject all religion.

No, this is far from all atheists, but it's enough to make a note of it.

[Orrex]

58. Again, you're telling atheists what they think *as a group*

Atheists aren't a "group of people" in the way that you're trying to pigeonhole them, and atheists don't need you to tell them what they think.

Ultimately, the only generally unifying characteristic among atheists is that they don't believe in a god. The rest of what you're claiming (that they "pride themselves on being enlightened and rational and intellectually superior to the rest of the population&quot is simply a lie.

No, this is far from all atheists, but it's enough to make a note of it.

Really? Have you taken a poll? Performed a census? What's your source? How big is your sample size?

[Feral Child]

52. Won't get much traction, I believe.

No appeal for most of us, it's too much like what most of us don't want any part of.

I certainly won't be signing up, much less tithing.

I guess, as with most philosophies, some folks just need to be in the club, and some-one will want to be the Boss. Human nature.

Shame that they (those mentioned in the article) are misogynists. I don't think there's a "connect"; ie, I don't think those views are any more widespread than in the population at large. I certainly hope that most male atheists, since the overall philosophy is tied to realism, skepticism, and belief in science as the most accurate view of reality, would not be mired in hatred for females. Still, I'm surprised that someone like Dawson, generally a very smart man, is caught up in that. Misogyny is based on emotion rather than logic, and I guess some folks are just "infected".

Emotion, especially hatred, seems to trump logic everytime.

[seabeyond]

55. thank you for a reasoned post. one that can argue against, yet acknowledge.

the atheists i knew prior to the last five years, were not a part of it. a lot of what i have heard the last couple years on du, lead me to suggest the "group" is larger than i expected.

thanks for your post.

as far as atheism, i am right there with you in the experience you express, if not a part of.

i am neither here, nor there.

[Feral Child]

62. Apparently some organizations do exist.

I'm not a "joiner" and have no interest in them.

I will state that any atheist, leader or not, that tries to incorporate misogyny into atheism is simply trying to sneak in their own stupid prejudice. There's no logical connection.

[seabeyond]

64. i agree. but then, that is the harm of the evo psych, is they see it as factual base, science. nt

[chrisa]

32. Thunderf00t and AmazingAtheist aren't "Atheist Leaders."

Atheism has no leaders, just thinkers.

[alp227]

74. Unfortunately their videos have millions of views on youtube.

So their brand of toxic bigotry is sold to many impressionable teenagers and uncritical sites as what atheism is, hence making them a dominant voice in secular thought in america.

[seabeyond]

75. thank you alp. yes. simply the reality, so it behooves atheist who disagree to speak up

on the issue. not whether they have leaders.

[Marrah_G]

35. I wasn't aware there were "Athiest leaders"

[Orrex]

49. What am I? Chopped liver?

By the way, you're late with your membership dues. Step up!

[Marrah_G]

51. Shit- I thought you were on vacation!!!!!

[Dr. Strange]

66. THERE ARE NO ATHEISTS ON VACATION!

No wait, that's in foxholes.

Never mind.

[Yavin4]

68. I'd like an audit of where my dues are going

Remember, we don't operate on faith.

[JHB]

90. Have you looked in a mirror lately?

I'm telling you, you're coming down with something awwful!
Two words: Hot water bottle, and chicken soup! And no making fun of the "words" thing, you know what I meant!

[arcane1]

79. "Dominant" ones at that!

[seabeyond]

43. google seems to recognize leaders of atheists. nt

[yortsed snacilbuper]

44. What is google?

[LostInAnomie]

83. Google also has links to people that claim to have fucked Bigfoot.

Doesn't mean they really are though.

[hifiguy]

91. OK, you win the thread.

[Rex]

45. Yes, dominant male leaders seem to have a problem with women.

I agree.

[YoungDemCA]

50. Look at all the defensiveness and whitewashing

It's reflexive, reactionary dogma...but free from being called a religion! Because atheists are the enlightened ones, you see.

[Orrex]

53. Do you typically let people speak on your behalf and tell you what you think?

[Logical]

54. Atheists don't believe in made up stuff. Nt

[seabeyond]

56. but, in the name of science, it is not made up, it is merely biology, so they say. nt

[LostOne4Ever]

86. Correcting misconceptions about what one believes or does not believe

Is not defensiveness or white washing. Its an effort to keep people from trying to smear us with falsehoods and stereotypes.

Dogma, on the other hand, is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. All atheism entails is not believing in any particular god.

There is no principle there.

However, the term dogma is linked to religion. So I guess what you are trying to do is insult atheists by linking them with something that they have completely rejected in an effort to be offensive to a group you don't like.

How very progressive of you.

[bravenak]

57. They ain't my damn leaders!!

I'm the damn leader. Now everybody, pay up!! I need 10% of your moneyz for the 'building fund'.

Just to let you know, they are not leaders, just sexist atheists. Also. Many prominent and not so prominent PEOPLE are prone to expressing sexist ideas. It's the patriarchy.

[edgineered]

61. Conditional payment remitted,

If you grant indulgences some of the faithful might also join!

link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

an indulgence is "a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".

[bravenak]

67. Indulgence granted upon receipt of payment.

Sign up as a bundler today!! Sainthood granted to prolific tithe collectors. Act fast! Offer ends soon.

[edgineered]

69. Grabbing my beads and shekels now!

AND I just found 30 silver pieces that you may find useful.

[bravenak]

76. Hey, Judas!

Ain't seen you in a while!

[edgineered]

84. Unfortunately,

the stone age coroners' report did not include the wounds received by swords and spears and ruled it suicide for me. Using large rocks we then smashed the analog stone modem I was using and I entered witness protection. It was a scary experience being among hordes of fishermen and shepherds infused with all their godly powers and testosterone driven rage to prove their worthiness for eternal life.

[LawDeeDah]

63. Until they get to what the RC church is, I'm not going to spend energy worrying.

Their are schmucks everywhere, in gender, race, occupation, income ranges, Everywhere.

[procon]

65. Ah... It's connect-the-dots with a power sprayer

The sloppy logic fails:

1). Many male atheist leaders have sexist ideas. Therefore the many men with sexist ideas must be atheists.


I don't know why people think that atheists are somehow a magnet for their silly, stupid and irrational personal foibles. The author is trying to tar the rest of us by dropping some celebrity names in an attempt to bolster the notion that somehow atheists must be "bad", straining any reasonable person's modest critical thinking abilities.

Its more likely that we atheists are quite opposed to concepts like misogyny, racism and most of the other prejudices that dominate the sacred texts of fundamentalist beliefs found in the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, so maybe its just another example of conservative projection.

[alarimer]

70. What this refers to is organized skeptical/atheist groups.

A lot of posters are saying that they don't have leaders. That may well be true, but there are a number of organizations (the James Randi Educational Foundation, the Center for Inquiry and others) which hold conferences and meetings in which women in particular do not feel welcome because many well-known speakers who appear at these things year after year behave abominably towards women particular.

A lot of this has been argued and rehashed on the Freethought blogging network, in particular by bloggers such as PZ Myers and Ophelia Benson, among others, who have detailed the reprehensible actions of such prominent skeptics as Michael Shermer, who is at least guilty of serial sexual harassment, if not worse, at these conferences. And then responses by such prominent atheists as Richard Dawkins, who is at the very least tone-deaf, especially on Twitter, to the concerns of women generally.

Organized skepticism and atheism (I separate these because they are not the same thing) are currently quite toxic. There have been a number of incidents in which prominent (within these two movements) women have been harassed (by the followers of Dawkins and Shermer and others- not that they are responsible for the actions of their fans, necessarily) to the point where many receive daily rape threats or worse any time they try to engage online. But the harassment is not restricted to online activities, so I don't just blame the anonymity of the internet for it.

Atheism and skepticism have long been bastions of white male privilege. Now that women want to participate, that is threatening to some.

[seabeyond]

71. they are responsible when say, a dawkins dismisses and scorns the woman that speaks up and his

followers then mock, harass and further, because they got the cue from... yes.... wait for it.... their... leader.

he was the voice that had the ability to lead others to mock, harass, and more or.... nip it in the ass. dawkins chose to mock, scorn. and his followers, followed.

[alarimer]

85. I agree.

And ironically, they are becoming the thing they supposedly rail against. Even so-called atheist leaders should not be immune from criticism. What's the point of getting rid of God, only to replace him with another kind of god?

I see no reason why the tools that we used to become atheists should not also be used on the so-called leaders' beliefs and behaviors.

[seabeyond]

88. exactly. and there are two that acknowledge this. all the rest ignore, joke, dismiss.

that builds no more confidence than the christians that ignore their own going on's within their religion.

[peace13]

72. Please don't tell me that...

There's a collection basket too!

[yortsed snacilbuper]

73. Leading Atheist's is like,

herding cats!

[Marr]

77. Some prominent Christians are murderers.

Some prominent ice skaters are child abusers.

Some prominent businessmen are crooks.

[valerief]

80. Wow, I'm an atheist and not once have I attended Atheist Mass. I'm a bad atheist.

I didn't think atheists had to actually do things our "leaders" want. I thought I just had to NOT BE A THEIST.

LexVegas, you know so much about atheism. Is there an atheism bible?

[Arugula Latte]

81. Yeah, it's a shame they're not enlightened like those Catholic, Baptist, Mormon & Orthodox Jewish

leaders who are so very progressive in their views towards women.

[juxtaposed]

89. I'm an atheist leader and I have no thoughts on women atheist leaders pro or con?

know quiet a few women leaders?

Been an atheist for over 50-yrs.

[eShirl]

92. Well they *are* a product of our culture and time, like any others.