Are we the new Rome?

[sarisataka]

Let's compare

Hereditary emperors- Since 1988, our leader has come from one of three families and is conceivably true through at least 2024

Senate of the elite class concerned more about power than people- Congress

Rich merchants can buy influence- PACS

Political advancment via assassination- attack ad character assassination

Legions battle barbarians around the world- military battles terrorists around the world

Chariot races- NASCAR

Gladiator fights- WWE, NFL

We also share a decadent upper class with a politically disconnected lower class kept distracted by banal entertainment.

It was who said the mob controls Rome, is not the effort put into swaying public opinion just a high tech way of controlling the new mob?

[hobbit709]

1. There are quite a few similarities.

And the Goths sacked Rome because the Senate broke their promise to them after serving in the Legions.

[jwirr]

5. Wow. I get that one. Osama ben Ladin.

[hobbit709]

6. Nope. Fucking over their troops

[jwirr]

9. Okay our own troops. That is also true. But once a long time ago Ben Ladin was fighting with us and

bush turned his back on them. 9/11 That is what I was thinking of.

[villager]

2. Art Hoppe: The Mightiest Nation

A column written for the SF Chronicle, in the Watergate era. Probably more applicable today:

<snip>

...because it was the richest nation, it worshiped wealth and the things wealth bought. But the rich grew richer and the poor grew poorer through unfair tax laws. And in the capital 1 in 5 were idle and on welfare.

When the poor grumbled, they were entertained by highly paid athletes and the firing of expensive rockets into the air which sometimes fizzled. But the poor often rioted and looted and burned in their frustrated rage.

Many citizens lost faith in their old religion and turned to Oriental mysticism. And the young, wearing long hair and sandals, became Jesus freaks. Bare-breasted dancers, lewd shows and sex orgies were increasingly common. And the currency was debased again and again to meet the mounting debts.

Worst of all, the citizens came to learn their leaders were corrupt -- that the respected palace guard was selling favors to the rich and sending spies among the people, creating fear and distrust.

So it was that the people lost faith. They lost faith in their leaders, their currency, their rockets, their postal system, their armies, their religion, their laws, their moral values, their country and, eventually, themselves...

<snip>

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/The-Mightiest-Nation-2919632.php

[world wide wally]

3. Politically motivated, out of control courts

[JNelson6563]

4. Yes, but I see one big difference.

The reason Rome had bread and circuses is because they knew they needed to keep the mob from getting too hungry. I don't think the 1% apply that kind of foresight. If enough people get hungry enough I fear we will see things the Caesars feared enough to work to avoid.

Julie

[jwirr]

7. Exactly. The politicians seem to think we are all going to take this laying down. Especially the Rs.

[Maedhros]

16. We have mass media and marketing psychology, which greatly increases the effectiveness of circuses

to compensate for the lack of bread.

[JNelson6563]

21. In the end, hunger trumps all.

I have studied history for many years, that's how it goes.

Julie

[closeupready]

8. In the run up to the Iraq War, pukes like Krauthammer trumpeted

how like Rome we were - I forget the precise argument or the aim of this rhetoric, but in general, he was rolling around like a pig in shit how the US could throw its weight around the globe anywhere it wanted.

The analogy was apt in many ways.

[Agnosticsherbet]

10. We are not an hereditary system. Our leaders continue to be elected. There are powerful families

who can manage to put one of their own in a position of power, but the system is no hereditary. Now, we have operated like an empire since Truman.

All your other arguments are valid.

There is an appearance of similarity with Rome. For the most part, I think your arguments are valid.

[Cleita]

12. As a Republic that is partially true. Many of the prominent families did rise from

less illustrious lineage by sheer acquisition of wealth, political marriages and other means of social climbing. Caesar, himself, was of such peonage risen to better heritage. Many such persons claimed divinity or lineage from some god to get the better families to ignore their humble origins. Caesar claimed to be a descendent of the goddess Venus. It was almost impossible though for the freed slave, foreigner become citizen, or other of humble birth to get up there.

I find we are very much like them in that respect. Our patricians don't claim nobility, but they sure act like Romans because they can pretty much buy their elected offices and groom their children to follow in their footsteps like their heirs. Foreign wars enhance their prestige like George W. Bush thought Iraq and killing Saddam would enhance his. It does seem like it got him a second term and now has paved the way for Jebby to run for office. If that isn't quintessentially Roman in spirit, I don't know what is.

[Cleita]

11. We sure are displaying all the elements, updated of course.

Last edited Fri Nov 14, 2014, 03:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Reading a historical novel called "Conspirata" about Cicero the orator right now. We apparently learned our politics and scheming ways from the Romans. The author claims to have based it on the writings by and about Cicero that have survived to this day so it should be pretty accurate. I don't know if the mob controlled Rome. Most prominent Romans kept well trained legions on their payrolls, who were just as able in quelling rebellions as they were in raiding and sacking barbarian territories. That was what was said in the movie, "Gladiator", but the Romans did have the concept that occasionally they had to keep the plebs happy enough or they would riot. That's how the concept of bread and games came about. The Patricians not only used B&G as bribes to the populace for votes when needed for some elected offices, but they also knew it would keep them quiet.

They also had a concept of public health. Most towns hired a municipal doctor to minister to the sick poor, a kind of national health care. The purpose of the aqueducts and public baths and latrines was to keep away plague and epidemics. Even though they didn't know about bacteria and viruses, they did know that pollution in water and soil caused disease. They knew that mosquitos caused malaria and some of their public projects were about draining swamps. I wonder how they would have dealt with climate change?

About public opinion. Although they had their public speakers to sway the mob, much of what happened was spread by gossip, at the fountain getting water, in taverns and at the baths so there was an informal way of spreading news among the masses. The patricians had allies and slaves who spied on other patricians. I don't know if our system of disseminating news of current events is worse than theirs.

[GreatGazoo]

13. or are we closer to these guys...?

The Romans assimilated other cultures, made the conquered want to be Romans. When their military empire crumbled it was replaced by the Holy Roman Empire -- an empire of thought and culture controlled by the Roman Catholic Church.

[Cleita]

14. We aren't allowed to talk about Nazis, Godwins law and all that jazz.

However, I agree with you. Most totalitarian regimes parading as Republics and Democracies, including Nazi Germany, have a lot in common with the ancient Romans so they are safe to make comparisons.

[hobbit709]

15. My attitude has always been that if it resembles a duck, then we can talk about waterfowl.

[Maedhros]

17. The term "fascism" refers to the Roman fasces, a bundle of rods and an axe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces

Fasces (/ˈfæsiːz/, a plurale tantum, from the Latin word fascis, meaning "bundle&quot [1] is a bound bundle of wooden rods, sometimes including an axe with its blade emerging. The fasces had its origin in the Etruscan civilization, and was passed on to ancient Rome, where it symbolized a magistrate's power and jurisdiction. The image has survived as a representation of magisterial or collective power. Fasces frequently occurs as a charge in heraldry, as well as on the US dime, as the symbol of a number of Italian socialist parties, including the Unione Sindacale Italiana, and the namesake of fascism.

A fascination (no pun intended) with Rome could be considered a common factor in totalitarian regimes. Russian tsars took the Roman title of "caesar" as their own. Mussolini coined the term "fascism", and Hitler adapted the Roman military salute for his Third Reich.

[UglyGreed]

18. I agree and like

all empires when spread too thin they collapse.

[Orsino]

19. Rome not yet sacked.

Still projecting power, but being taken over by barbarians.

[bvar22]

20. The New Rome?... No.

We more resemble the Old Roman Empire in the later stages of its decline.

[randome]

22. Those who see EVERYTHING through the lens of history...

...are doomed to never see the present clearly.

Trends may repeat over history, but there are actually few out-and-out repetitions of civilization or cultures.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[baldguy]

23. History never repeats itself. But it often rhymes.

[randome]

25. Yes, I've seen that before. Very apt.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Ink Man]

28. He saw it.

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

Thomas Jefferson.

[brooklynite]

24. Funny thing, most Emperors weren't hereditary...

In the early years, the Emperor usually adopted an adult with the presumed ability to run things when the Emperors died; in the later years, the Emperor usually cam from whichever military legion had the most strength.

[mikehiggins]

26. Yup!

[ZombieHorde]

27. This too shall pass.

I don't know the timeline you're considering, but Earth has always had an expiration date.

[oldandhappy]

29. continual destruction of those not rich