Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why can't they convene a 2nd grand jury ? (Original Post) Rhinodawg Nov 2014 OP
I have been saying all night, that wilson should at least lose his gun rights - he hollysmom Nov 2014 #1
He did a shitload of shooting before killing the unarmed boy. Yes, he did. delrem Nov 2014 #3
I believe they can aint_no_life_nowhere Nov 2014 #2
He can AFAIK Recursion Nov 2014 #4
The feds can open a grand jury now davidn3600 Nov 2014 #5
McCulloch could also choose to forgo the GJ decision justiceischeap Nov 2014 #6
If the first grand jury was presented ALL the facts . ... badtoworse Nov 2014 #7
It might help if you have a Prosecutor that avebury Nov 2014 #9
I didn't get that from the press conference badtoworse Nov 2014 #10
What have you read about McCulloch up to this point? annabanana Nov 2014 #12
A prosecutor sways a grand jury, big-time. lovemydog Nov 2014 #13
"he presented 'all the evidence' rather than only the evidence that might lead to an indictment" badtoworse Nov 2014 #14
A grand jury hearing is not a trial. lovemydog Nov 2014 #15
Given that the facts did not persuade the grand jury to indict on any charge,... badtoworse Nov 2014 #16
Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. lovemydog Nov 2014 #18
A Grand Jury's sole responsibility is to decide whether there is probable cause KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #23
The Proseuctors that were on after his speech avebury Nov 2014 #20
a single autopsy without pictures? 50+ witnesses disregarded? bettyellen Nov 2014 #21
The Governor has already made it pretty clear that he avebury Nov 2014 #8
The Governor has no authority to remove McCullough Lurks Often Nov 2014 #17
He did have the authority to appoint a Special Prosecutor, he faile avebury Nov 2014 #19
They can - but would you really TBF Nov 2014 #11
I have question about the prosecutor(s) ctaylors6 Nov 2014 #22

hollysmom

(5,946 posts)
1. I have been saying all night, that wilson should at least lose his gun rights - he
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 03:36 AM
Nov 2014

committed reckless endangerment of the whole neighborhood - didn't the prosecutor (and I use that word loosely) say that there were no witnesses because they were running for cover? Sounds to me like Wilson was shooting every which way

aint_no_life_nowhere

(21,925 posts)
2. I believe they can
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 03:44 AM
Nov 2014

Double jeopardy (being tried twice for the same offense) is prohibited by the 5th amendment. But jeopardy attaches when a regular jury is empaneled prior to trial. Jeopardy doesn't attach to a would be defendant when the grand jury fails to indict. I think if the governor wanted to appoint a special prosecutor, he could go before a grand jury all over again to seek an indictment or, better yet, seek a preliminary hearing regarding probable cause before a judge and avoid the grand jury altogether.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
5. The feds can open a grand jury now
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 05:27 AM
Nov 2014

..but not for the murder since the federal government doesn't have jurisdiction.

A federal grand jury would have to limit their scope to civil rights violations.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
6. McCulloch could also choose to forgo the GJ decision
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 07:46 AM
Nov 2014

and charge Wilson if he wanted to. However, it was obvious from the outset that he didn't even want to convene a GJ on the matter. He'd made up his mind that it was a good shoot before even HE saw all evidence.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
7. If the first grand jury was presented ALL the facts . ...
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 07:55 AM
Nov 2014

...what reason is there to believe a second grand jury would reach a different conclusion given the same facts?

avebury

(10,946 posts)
9. It might help if you have a Prosecutor that
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 08:02 AM
Nov 2014

actually looked to indict and not serve as Wilson's personal attorney. It is amazing how all the witnesses whose testimony was unfavorable to Wilson were discounted and only those who supported Wilson were given credence by the Prosecutor. Given the Prosecutor's established record of refusing to indict police officers no matter what credible evidence against the cops this guy has no business being a prosecutor.

The Ferguson legal system reminds me of what you would expect to see in a banana republic dictatorship, not an American city.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
10. I didn't get that from the press conference
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 09:11 AM
Nov 2014

McCulloch pointed out that a number of witnesses changed their story after the results of the autopsy were made public. He also stated that in a number of cases, the witness's account just did not match the physical evidence. That is not discounting testimony you don't like; it's objectively looking at the facts. Should McCulloch have not presented facts that supported Wilson, so that an indictment was more likely?

As a practical matter, what McCulloch thought didn't matter. Only the twelve jurors got to vote and if they had all the facts, we should respect their decision.

annabanana

(52,791 posts)
12. What have you read about McCulloch up to this point?
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 09:21 AM
Nov 2014

From a petition drive earlier
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/appoint-a-special-prosecutor


McCulloch's decision not to charge officers who murdered two unarmed African-American men in 2000 by shooting into their car 20 times, especially in the face of the U.S. Attorney's independent investigation finding that those officers lied about their actions, gives us no confidence that his office can provide a fair and impartial investigation into this current matter. 


That failure, coupled with McCulloch's recent participation in one of the most racially polarizing elections in the history of St. Louis County, means that his office's continued oversight of this tragedy will only sow further distrust and discord in our community. 


lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
13. A prosecutor sways a grand jury, big-time.
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 09:21 AM
Nov 2014

As has been famously said 'any decent prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.'

McCulloch made at least two highly unusual decisions prior to convening the grand jury. First, he did not advise any charge. Second, he presented 'all the evidence' rather than only the evidence that might lead to an indictment. In doing so, he essentially acted as Wilson's defense attorney.

I watched the press conference too. I saw a man who did not want any indictment, on any charge.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
14. "he presented 'all the evidence' rather than only the evidence that might lead to an indictment"
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 09:36 AM
Nov 2014

You seriously think that would have been fair? Sorry but that's BS in my book. A grand jury should get an objective, fair presentation of the facts and leaving out the stuff that supports the accused falls well short of that.

A couple of inaccuracies in your post. First, the grand jury had been convened well before the incident took place and second, five potential charges were given to the grand jury.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
15. A grand jury hearing is not a trial.
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 09:52 AM
Nov 2014

Sorry about the first inaccuracy - my bad. Regarding the second one, I stand by it. It's highly unusual for a prosecutor to not recommend any charge to a grand jury. How many times in his professional history do you think this prosecutor has not recommended a charge, prior to this case? I'll guess zero.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
16. Given that the facts did not persuade the grand jury to indict on any charge,...
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 10:09 AM
Nov 2014

...I think it's likely that McCulloch saw it the same way and thus could not recommend any specific charge. I'm not a lawyer, much less a prosecutor, but it seems to me that district attorneys and county prosecutors would only take cases to a grand jury where they believed the facts would support an indictment. To do otherwise would be wasting the grand jury's time and that is why a return of no true bill is rare.

In this case, I believe it was such a high profile case that McCulloch believed that exercising his discretion not to present the case would have created the appearance that the county was not seeking justice for Brown. By presenting all of the facts, McCulloch took any personal biases he might have out of the decision making process and left it up to the twelve grand jurors. To me, that seems reasonable.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
18. Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 10:19 AM
Nov 2014

I can see why you feel that way.

I lean more toward believing that McCulloch faced incredible pressure from the public (and as he repeated numerous times, the media) and felt he had to do something. And that he steered the grand jury toward no indictment because as a prosecutor he relies on police information, and would have been shut out of it if he had gone for an indictment. Maybe subconsciously, but prejudiced toward the police all the same. The evidence that supports my opinion is all the highly unusual steps he took in this case, things he does not do in any other case in which he actually acts solely as a prosecutor.

But, to each their own opinion. I enjoy discussing the case and appreciate your thoughts. Have a wonderful day badtoworse.

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
23. A Grand Jury's sole responsibility is to decide whether there is probable cause
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 01:50 PM
Nov 2014

that a crime was committed. There was enough evidence to constitute probable cause. It's the burden of the defense in a criminal trial to rebut state's evidence. In this Grand Jury, though, McCulloch did the defense's work for it. He presented evidence to the GJ that rebutted state's evidence.

What McCulloch did is not unprecedented but it is highly unorthodox. You refuse to acknowledge that which renders your post at best dissembling.

avebury

(10,946 posts)
20. The Proseuctors that were on after his speech
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 01:37 PM
Nov 2014

were all saying that he delivered a Defense Attorney's speech not a Prosecutor's speech. They also pointed out that apparently all the witnesses that did not support Wilson's story were discounted and only those how supported Wilson's version were deemed credible.

I don't know if you realize it but this Prosecutor has always refused to prosecute andy cops. His past actions are on

But numerous local leaders have teamed up against McCulloch, a Democrat who has been prosecuting attorney of St. Louis County for 23 years. Many of them point to a 2000 incident in which McCulloch opted not to charge two undercover drug officers who shot and killed two unarmed black men.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/prosecutor-michael-brown-case-has-deep-family-ties-police-n183911

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/09/21/ferguson_and_fairfax_profiles_in_official_cowardice_124041.html

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/15/1321904/-Ferguson-police-beat-a-man-and-then-charged-him-with-destruction-of-property-for-bloody-uniforms#

avebury

(10,946 posts)
8. The Governor has already made it pretty clear that he
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 07:58 AM
Nov 2014

had no desire to seek justice for the Brown family. If he was not going to boot McCullough off the case and appoint a Special Prosecutor the first time around he most certainly will not do so now. I do not know if Missouri had term limits but the people need to make that he never wins an election again.

 

Lurks Often

(5,455 posts)
17. The Governor has no authority to remove McCullough
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 10:17 AM
Nov 2014

whether he would have if he did have the authority is another question.

TBF

(31,921 posts)
11. They can - but would you really
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 09:20 AM
Nov 2014

expect that full-of-himself prosecutor to do so? He was playing defense attorney on this one.

ctaylors6

(693 posts)
22. I have question about the prosecutor(s)
Tue Nov 25, 2014, 01:44 PM
Nov 2014

I started to post this somewhere else but decided this thread may be better place. I've started reading the transcripts, and McCulloch isn't the one questioning the witnesses; two other people are - Ms. Whirley and Ms. Aliadeh.

After some googling, I found and read this article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/in-atypical-approach-grand-jury-in-ferguson-shooting-receives-full-measure-of-case/2014/09/07/1dec6ffe-339b-11e4-8f02-03c644b2d7d0_story.html

It says: "McCulloch declined to step aside, but he is not presenting evidence to the grand jury, which usually means he won’t try the case himself, Magee said. But he is supervising the two attorneys in his office — Sheila Whirley and Kathi Alizadeh — who are presenting to the grand jury."

The article is dated 9/7. Does anyone know if Whirley and Alizadeh presented all the evidence or if McCulloch stepped in at some point? I'm not saying it made difference to outcome, but it just surprised me that I hadn't heard about this before today.

Thanks!

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Why can't they convene a ...