HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » We're fucked for the fore...

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:08 PM

We're fucked for the foreseeable future...

Once upon a time, America (that mythical one) stood for something. That something was a square deal and the truth...as we saw it.

I love to quote Winston Churchill from time to time and one particular quote comes to mine, it goes something like this, "America always does the right thing...eventually".

On the world stage, with the release of the CIA torture documents, the U.S. now finds itself in a situation of caught between a rock and a hard place; as it has been played out today.

If nothing is done to bring the war criminals to trial, the world will look upon us (not that they already haven't but the memos only confirm what they believed) that we are nothing more than a two bit nation lead by sociopaths who believe that getting information (regardless if it didn't really help us at all) via any means necessary regardless of the consequences. And explaining it away as the only way to beat an "enemy".

Now, as some people have floated, ACLU in particular, that Obama should pardon the war criminals. Because, that would go on record as saying they are war criminals without the dirty work of actually, you know, bringing them to trail. Because, what a mess that would be!

If nothing is done or even if a "pardon" of sorts is issued, the damage is still done. Or a phrase I like to use, "you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube".

We will forever be known as a nation that tortures. We now join the illustrious ranks of various third world nations run by dictators and military juntas.

Not really great company, huh?

But for the moment, please put all the failing, hand wringing and angry pronouncements aside.

This nation is remarkably nimble. While at times we seem like stogy old men doing all we can to get up out of our chair to complain about the kids on the lawn, we will, as Mr. Churchill said, "do the right thing...eventually".

While I would love to see that happen in my lifetime, it might, I feel that in order to heal as a nation, as a world, they need/will be brought to trial. Perhaps not in the traditional sense, but they will.

I take examples from our recent history of Cambodia. Those murderous bastards during the Pol Pot regime were finally brought up on charges of crimes against humanity.

Granted, it was many years later and Pol Pot himself died before he was sent to prison or actually found guilty. But he, never the less, was indeed eventually found guilty as well as many many of his henchmen.

But some might say, "well, we aren't Cambodia". No we aren't but that doesn't make the crimes the bush* and his room full of dopes any less serious and despicable.

The pieces are certainly in place, but like anything that really matters, the moneyed interests have to consult their balance sheets to see if the loss profit margin can withstand this "ding" to their bottom line. That will be the ultimate deciding factor.

Then and only then if this were to go forward, the U.S. would regain a margin of it's "respectability". Because that very gigantic, "IF", is at the bottom of a very deep hole this nation has dug itself into.

41 replies, 7176 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 41 replies Author Time Post
Reply We're fucked for the foreseeable future... (Original post)
Javaman Dec 2014 OP
daleanime Dec 2014 #1
derby378 Dec 2014 #2
truedelphi Dec 2014 #9
subterranean Dec 2014 #18
Matrosov Dec 2014 #21
PAProgressive28 Dec 2014 #3
nichomachus Dec 2014 #10
upaloopa Dec 2014 #4
Javaman Dec 2014 #17
upaloopa Dec 2014 #19
hfojvt Dec 2014 #34
Javaman Dec 2014 #38
japple Dec 2014 #23
upaloopa Dec 2014 #24
hifiguy Dec 2014 #5
grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #6
Corruption Inc Dec 2014 #7
2naSalit Dec 2014 #11
adirondacker Dec 2014 #13
Throckmorton Dec 2014 #37
PowerToThePeople Dec 2014 #41
nichomachus Dec 2014 #8
2naSalit Dec 2014 #14
Scuba Dec 2014 #12
LiberalArkie Dec 2014 #15
chervilant Dec 2014 #33
deurbano Dec 2014 #36
chervilant Dec 2014 #40
blkmusclmachine Dec 2014 #16
tblue Dec 2014 #20
Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #22
Half-Century Man Dec 2014 #25
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2014 #26
Dreamer Tatum Dec 2014 #27
Hissyspit Dec 2014 #29
Javaman Dec 2014 #30
JawJaw Dec 2014 #28
JEB Dec 2014 #31
Babel_17 Dec 2014 #32
Triana Dec 2014 #35
Agony Dec 2014 #39

Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:15 PM

1. K&R....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:22 PM

2. Not to mention many of the Khmer Rouge received light sentences for their atrocities

At least Kang Kaek Iew eventually received a life sentence for his part in Tuol Sleng, although I'm not a big fan of retroactive sentencing.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to derby378 (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:33 PM

9. People here forget that Pol Pot was considered the USA's dear and trusted ally!

Circa 1975 and on, we employed the veto option whenever anything happened on the floor of the UN that might have made it harder for Pol Pot to destroy his nation and all those millions of people.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to truedelphi (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:53 PM

18. Just as Saddam Hussein once was.

Actually, in both cases, they were not so much an ally as the enemy of our enemy. As it has often done, our government turned a blind eye to their human rights abuses for geopolitical reasons.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to subterranean (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 06:05 PM

21. +1 nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:23 PM

3. Not to mention the racists and the ignorant

I fear very much for the future of this country and I'm only 24

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PAProgressive28 (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:39 PM

10. There are people on this site defending torture

You should fear.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:24 PM

4. America is not a torture report. America is much more.

To me America is that long stretch of beach I walk down. It is the friends I have that have something in common with me. It is the HOA that I was treasurer of. It's the people who live in my neighborhood. It's my co workers and it is the good we do for the poor and mentally I'll who need our programs.
Americans may agree with torture or hate it as we do but we are not torturers. They did not act in our name.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to upaloopa (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:46 PM

17. that's not how the world veiws us...sadly. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:54 PM

19. Not so sure you are right.

We haven't shown a good side of ourselves that's for sure.
I could not stop Bush and Cheney except to vote for Al Gore and Kerry.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 11, 2014, 12:29 PM

34. speculation

We are not the world and thus don't really have any idea how the world views us.

There is no "world" anyway. The 6.8 billion people who are not Americans will have a variety of opinions and information, and may have their own issues of integrity and compassion.

Germans were mentioned, as if somehow the torture of a few thousand people is morally equivalent to the brutal murder of six million and involvement in a worldwide conflagration that killed another 30 million or so. Really?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hfojvt (Reply #34)

Thu Dec 11, 2014, 05:34 PM

38. crazy thought here...

so it's confirmed that we torture people and we wonder and question how the world now looks upon us?

Huh, how about that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to upaloopa (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 06:14 PM

23. That is what the good Germans said, too.

I know this was not happening in the same epic worldwide scale as the Nazi empire before and during WWII, but we are going to suffer a collective guilt for this. It is a stain on our country, and it is up to us to bleach out those dark souls who contaminate the whole--the part that is good. And, they did act in our name. That is part that we should never, ever forget. There were people (Sy Hersh, for one) who spoke the truth, who told us what was happening. We (I) felt powerless to intervene. We (I) didn't know how or what to do to stop it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to japple (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 06:22 PM

24. We were powerless to intervene.

If you are honest with yourself you know as well as I that we could speak up but that is all.
Just as now you can't punish the perps. You can say what you will but you can't do anything about it then or now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:27 PM

5. K and Effin' R

 



Greed and imperialism never lead anywhere good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:30 PM

6. With prosecutions we can secure America's future. This is an opportunity for Dems to crush the R's

 

for a generation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)


Response to Corruption Inc (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:55 PM

11. ^^THIS^^

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Corruption Inc (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:00 PM

13. + a few trillion!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Corruption Inc (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 11, 2014, 04:31 PM

37. What he said!!!!! N/T

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Corruption Inc (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 12, 2014, 12:09 AM

41. rec

 



USA,

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:31 PM

8. Why didn't we pardon the Nazis at Nuremberg? Why aren't we pardoning them now?

For God's sake, Israel is still hunting down Nazis. The US is deporting 90-year-old men for crimes they committed 70 years ago.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nichomachus (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:09 PM

14. I would suspect that...

We didn't pardon the Nazis because we still had some semblance of a morality and human dignity back then. So we now have these modified terms due to progressed manipulation and redefinition of moral concepts since the middle of the last century.

Now-a-days we have:

Murikin xsepshenalism

"That was then, this is how it is now."

As for the deported elderly war criminals of past inhumanities, they get a new ID and go enjoy life as a pensioner on our dime, been happening for a long time. (some we actually pay Soc.Sec. $ to live outside the US it appears).


Jimmy Carter was right when he declared that the USA is no longer a functioning democracy. It also seems that very few who are holding elected office are aware of what a functioning democracy is or looks like let alone their specifically defined purpose/role within it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:00 PM

12. "... in order to heal as a nation ... they need/will be brought to trial."

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:32 PM

15. I will be 67 next month. I thought the US would have overcome the racism I got beat for protesting.

I thought we would have a station on the moon at least maybe one on Mars also. I thought that the protests for women rights would meant both sexes would have been wearing at most only bottoms on the beaches (yea). I thought for sure that there would be world wide medical care and very inexpensive drugs (because after all it would be for the public welfare). I knew for sure that there would not be any poverty or hungry people anywhere in the world. I thought that crime would not exist any where because there would be no need to lie and steal any more.

I can not help it, I grew up with news programs that promoted the good and showed us the bad in the world. I grew up watching a program with Rachael Carlson describing what DDT was doing to the birds. DDT got banned. I grew up with Star Trek. I believed in the public good. You know there used to be things like public hospitals. The idea of improving the public wellbeing was something that was growing.

Being almost 67 and things being worse than what I grew up with and envisioned is very hard thing to handle.

I am almost ready to unplug all sources of news, and just pick up books and movies and start living in a fantasy world. I just can't see things improving in what is left in my life time. (although through numerous things happening to me, I have been proven to be hard to keep dead).

So I guess it is up to the kids to start dreaming of how it could have been any may still be.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LiberalArkie (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 11, 2014, 12:08 PM

33. I will be 59 next month,

and I live in north Arkansas, in one of the poorest counties in the nation. I am not far behind you, and I've spent much of my life doing activism and advocacy--never for material gain.

I was wrongfully terminated the day before we were to go on Thanksgiving break. I think my new boss (of little more than two months) was acting on instructions from my old boss (who as much as admitted this) because I asked him to respect my right not to hear his (self-avowed) racism in the workplace. If they block my unemployment claim, I will again face homelessness. I have been having insomnia and anxiety because of this.

AND, that's on TOP of the distress I've been feeling about Trayvon, Michael, Eric, and too many other young Black men murdered by racist militarized police and police-wannabes. I've felt distress over what is happening to protesters around the globe, and distress over the radical income inequity that threatens the vast majority of humans on this planet.

A few years ago, I got slammed by a number of DUers who took exception to my laundry list of things I've witnessed during my tenure on this planet:

- heavy metal pollution of most of our groundwater, lakes, rivers and oceans.

- injurious over-fishing of all bodies of water

- massive "islands" of plastic debris in the Pacific and Atlantic oceans

- air pollution so bad, we now have 'reports' of the risks for anyone going outside

- nuclear testing and contamination

- Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima

- massive oil spills too numerous to list

- systematic degradation of the quality and inherent nutrition of basic foods

- increased incarceration of the marginalized and disenfranchised

- pernicious destruction of and/or "revisions" of public education, the post office, and our social safety nets

I could go on, but you get my drift. I had several DUers deride me and put me on their IL because of my longer list like this one.

I no longer watch television (on my list as an ubiquitous propaganda device), and I am vegan and still an activist and advocate. But, I have a Kevorkian option that I WILL exercise before I'll live on the streets.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to chervilant (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 11, 2014, 04:22 PM

36. Very sorry to hear about the termination. Harsh times for Labor.

I really hope things pick up for you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to deurbano (Reply #36)

Fri Dec 12, 2014, 12:06 AM

40. Thanks so much!

I do, too!

DUers help.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:40 PM

16. Lawless Nation

 

run by sociopaths

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 05:58 PM

20. Like Ferguson: No consequences => Blowback

The "no consequences" is what endangers us morally and physically. Not unlike when police kill unarmed people with impunity. It's not only the crimes they have committed; it's the impunity that burns. It damages us and pisses off people, and rightly so. And those scars don't heal.

Isis is loving this. No consequences for our torture? Oh there will be consequences.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 06:08 PM

22. I sure as hell hope Obama and the rest of the Democrats who have been kid gloving this shit do not

 

expect a shred of support or any future trust. I have spent years listening to the homophobic bullshit of all of these people who turn out to be either supportive of or nonchalant about hugely evil acts of violence specifically forbidden by the very faith they claim as reason for their bigotry. Enough.
I was raised by good people, the way these barbarians behave, Bush and Obama and Cheney and all of them is what my father said he fought WW2 to put an end to. We hanged Japanese for waterboarding, the office of the President of the United States did that, now that offices says 'we tortured some folks, don't get sanctimonious'.
And of course the mayhem in our streets is a result of this lawlessness at the top. Why would anyone expect differently?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 07:13 PM

25. If we do nothing

We lose whatever remaining creditability we have when trying to make any statement on morality.
We lose all creditability as a nation of laws.
We lose all control on our barely controlled intelligence golem.
We lose the right to lead any other nation anywhere.
We lose


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 07:14 PM

26. Republicans think there is no "hole we've dug ourselves into"...

 

They claim there's a "shining city on a hill" and accuse us of hating God, Reagan, and 'Merica.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 07:33 PM

27. Just for funsies: you equate Bush to Pol Pot? nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 09:56 PM

29. You have a problem with that?

You want to go through and nit-pick the numbers? Let's start with one million Iraqi orphans...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 10:58 PM

30. And your point is?

are you trying to equate me with a new version of Godwins law?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Wed Dec 10, 2014, 07:45 PM

28. The World is Watching

TOP story on UK's ITV News programme was the call for PROSECUTION of those responsible for torture. Short clip of an interview with the UN's spokesman for torture, Juan Mendez.

Normally, ITV News plays things a little safe, but the message was clear tonight.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Thu Dec 11, 2014, 12:11 AM

31. Prosecute all fucking ready! eom

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Thu Dec 11, 2014, 10:15 AM

32. Instead of just pardoning

Contact some, at the lower levels, who were involved and who were known to have been ambivalent about their participation and who currently feel a level of guilt/responsibility. Offer them pardons in exchange for an apology and coming clean, in general, about what went on.

Then announce that the offer will be extended to higher ups in exchange for asking for it, apologizing, and coming clean. The great unsaid is that after making such a generous offer the government won't see much of an uproar over it exploring other options.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Thu Dec 11, 2014, 12:50 PM

35. America doesn't value its own people (except the corprat ones)

 

Last edited Thu Dec 11, 2014, 01:23 PM - Edit history (1)

It's no surprise that it doesn't value any other people either.

The country is morally bankrupt and corrupt all the way to its rotten core.

I can only see things getting worse from here. Socially, legally, economically, morally, and diplomatically, America hasn't a leg to stand on.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Javaman (Original post)

Thu Dec 11, 2014, 07:05 PM

39. Historically we have gotten away with supporting Latin American dictators and others

who torture. TRAINING them to torture! The only difference here is that we are doing it directly in our name.

That is the problem with ignoring the wake we leave behind in the name of National Security.

For a long long long time we have been training torturers and ignoring those that try to pry our collective eyes open.

this statement from the School of Americas Watch lays it all out.
"Since 1946, the SOA has trained over 64,000 Latin American soldiers in counterinsurgency techniques, sniper training, commando and psychological warfare, military intelligence and interrogation tactics. These graduates have consistently used their skills to wage a war against their own people. Among those targeted by SOA graduates are educators, union organizers, religious workers, student leaders, and others who work for the rights of the poor. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, “disappeared,” massacred, and forced into refugee by those trained at the School of Assassins."

Agony

http://www.soaw.org/about-the-soawhinsec/what-is-the-soawhinsec

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread