I'm sorry Obama, those who sodomized Iraqi boys in front of their mothers, are NOT patriots

[Oilwellian]

“We tortured some folks,” Obama said to reporters during a news conference Friday. “We did some things that were contrary to our values.”

“You know, it is important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had,” Obama said. “And a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots.”

I'm trying real hard to put my sanctimony aside and embrace this new American standard of what a patriot is. I had no idea that includes child rapists, and those who cover up their crimes.


Seymour Hersh, shortly after the Abu Ghraib photos surfaced:

After Donald Rumsfeld testified on the Hill about Abu Ghraib in May, there was talk of more photos and video in the Pentagon’s custody more horrific than anything made public so far. “If these are released to the public, obviously it’s going to make matters worse,” Rumsfeld said. Since then, the Washington Post has disclosed some new details and images of abuse at the prison. But if Seymour Hersh is right, it all gets much worse.

Hersh gave a speech last week to the ACLU making the charge that children were sodomized in front of women in the prison, and the Pentagon has tape of it. The speech was first reported in a New York Sun story last week, which was in turn posted on Jim Romenesko’s media blog, and now EdCone.com and other blogs are linking to the video. We transcribed the critical section here (it starts at about 1:31:00 into the ACLU video.) At the start of the transcript here, you can see how Hersh was struggling over what he should say:

“Debating about it, ummm … Some of the worst things that happened you don’t know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib … The women were passing messages out saying ‘Please come and kill me, because of what’s happened’ and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It’s going to come out.”

http://www.salon.com/2004/07/15/hersh_7/

[xchrom]

1. du rec.

[Autumn]

2. They are sure as hell are not patriots, they are perverts.

And Obama has given them cover in this by calling them patriots.

[okaawhatever]

13. Obama didn't call the molesters (if that allegation is true) patriots. He said SOME people involved

in the CIA and military were patriots. I imagine he was thinking of the people who weren't doing the torture.

I find it hard to believe the allegations of molestation true. I don't believe for one second that Feinstein would have kept that out of the report. Fox news, Cheney, Rummey et ux wouldn't have been able to say squat after that came out.

[Autumn]

17. okaawhatever how are they separated? Like we tortured some folks? Some of them don't count?

keep thinking that.

[okaawhatever]

18. No when Obama was referring to the intelligence community as a whole, he called some of

them patriots. He didn't say all of them were, so it should be clear that he is saying that some aren't patriots. I will assume the people he didn't feel were patriots were those doing the torturing and those who were patriots were the ones who weren't involved in it. Obama by no means claimed that the people who tortured were patriots, as you claimed.

[Autumn]

25. What was clear is he was talking about how we tortured some folks.

“We tortured some folks,” “We did some things that were contrary to our values.” “You know, it is important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had,”“And a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots.”
You know, he's talking about the folks who tortured some folks. Who are those hard working folks?

See how that flows without the "Obama said"? And the Obama "said to reporters during a news conference Friday"? he did not refer to or qualify it by saying except for those who sodomized Iraqi boys in front of their mothers.

parse all you want to.

[mazzarro]

102. I was wondering if the hardworking ones were the patriots

While the non-hardworking (lazy) ones were the torturers.

[LawDeeDah]

64. Don't waste your time and breath. Obama called torturing rapists Patriots, and that is the end of

That! That is just the (evil) nature of his character.

[brush]

152. Read then stop the misinformation

"A lot of those folks". Not all, and certainly, not the ones who committed torture. Did most of the people in law enforcement and national security commit torture? The answer is clearly no. Many in the CIA objected, protested and left their jobs because of it. These people certainly are patriots. And there were a lot of them."

Does that not say the people who left their jobs are the patriots, but certainly not the ones who committed torture?

[LawDeeDah]

154. Absolutely it does.

But we have a fold here that attaches themselves to the hopes and dreams of bringing the President down. They don't have much to go on, so they nitpick his words, which are clear as a bell to anyone not affected with P.O.S.S. and announce it publicly (that's piece of shit syndrome, some here are proud to be in the POSS club). Must be hard times at the club if they have to go to this extreme - meaning unlearning everything they learned 'bout readin' and writin'. Guess rithmatic will be next.

How many years has this devil President been in office?
Oh, maybe a hunnerd. Sure feels like it.

That's the kind of rithmatic.

[zeemike]

66. If they knew about it and did or said nothing they are guilty.

Just as if you knew a crime was committed and did nothing...it is I believe called accessory to the crime.

How many of them knew about it?...are those the ones he called patriots?
It is a national shame, and we are all guilty because for 10 years now we have done nothing about it.

[rhett o rick]

92. Your point is sad. You are trying to justify what the President said by claiming

that some of the torturers were patriots. Help me out if I got that wrong. Here's is what the President actually said, “You know, it is important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had,” Obama said. “And a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots.”

That is crap. It's crap. The poor people were torturing people because they had a tough job and were under pressure. Really? That's justification? These people that hanged people from chains, beat them with sticks, tortured their children in front of them, pour water on their heads, etc. were/are psychopaths. How else can you explain it?

The torturers were not acting as patriotic. They were acting as psychopaths and deserve the stiffest punishments offered.

Pres Obama is complicit.

[okaawhatever]

94. I don't believe Obama was only referring to the torturers when he said "and a lot of those

folks...". I believe during the interview he was referring to the intelligence community as a whole.

[rhett o rick]

95. Really? Well if that makes you feel better about it, go for it. nm

[Odin2005]

143. What you "believe" is irrelevent.

You are just in denial that the man we all thought was the Second Coming of FDR turned out to be tool who thinks torturers are "patriots".

[okaawhatever]

145. What I believe is irrelevant, but not what Obama said is not and he did not say that torturers

were patriots no matter how many times you and your ilk tell that lie.
Even a person with average intelligence can read the statement and realize that:
1. Obama said "some of those folks" in "law enforcement and security services" were patriots
2. Only the CIA was involved in the torture program
3. The CIA is not considered law enforcement
4. Therefore, his statement could not have been that some of the torturers were patriots.

Never mind that the two statements were said separately and not connected.

[Odin2005]

148. LOL.

[brush]

153. Stop the misinformation

"A lot of those folks". Not all, and certainly, not the ones who committed torture. Did most of the people in law enforcement and national security commit torture? The answer is clearly no. Many in the CIA objected, protested and left their jobs because of it. These people certainly are patriots. And there were a lot of them."

Does that not say the people who left their jobs are the patriots, but certainly not the ones who committed torture?

[okaawhatever]

157. +100 nt

[Odin2005]

142. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

[KingCharlemagne]

21. I've never seen Hersh's reporting corroborated, although I have seen his allegations

repeated from time to time (including by yours truly).

That said, there is one way Feinstein would not have included this in her report for perfectly innocent, albeit bureaucratic, reasons. Please do remember that Hersh was reporting on the military\Abu Ghraib (his beat since My Lai), whereas Feinstein's Committee had coverage over the CIA. So the CIA may well not have sodomized children of captives, while the U.S. military or mercenaries employed by it in Iraq may well have.

Does that make sense? Or have I misread or misunderstood the torture-scape?

[okaawhatever]

23. It makes sense, but it doesn't make sense that the military would be involved with the

black sites.
If Hersch is saying it happened at a normal military prison that is one thing, but if he is saying it happened at a black site I doubt very seriously the military was involved.

I don't trust Hersch, so i'm going to let the allegation go until or unless something else comes up.

[KingCharlemagne]

24. That's fair. I do remember that when the batch of Abu Ghrab photos

were released, it was but a tiny sampling of the total. And I seem to remember Sen. Lindsey Graham (who, at one point, had served on the JAG Corps) seeing the full batch of photos and evidence and emerging from the viewing ashen-faced. I never heard anything more about that, so it has gone down the memory hole.

Just so we're clear:

CIA operated so-called 'black' sites at various sites around the world, including Poland and (IIRC) Uzbekistan
U.S. military operated detention facilities in Afghanistan and Iraq.

U.S. military would not have been involved in the day-to-day operations of the CIA's black sites, but might have been involved in the rendition of some captives to those black sites. By the same token, the CIA would not have been involved in the day-to-day operations of the detention facilities in Afghanistan or Iraq but may have supplied certain captives to the military for detention there.

[okaawhatever]

52. As to your last paragraph. Yes, I believe the CIA would not have been involved with legal, known

military prisons and the military wouldn't be involved with "black sites".

The military has different laws about what they can and can't do, also international law applies when they are engaged in warfare (as in Iraq and Afghanistan). The US gov't wouldn't have the military involved in something like a black site because it could cause too much trouble. Also, the military isn't as "off the books" as the CIA is. Soldiers have to be accounted for, they can't just go missing for a couple of months while they work at a black site. With some of the more elite special forces there is much less oversight, but they have different uses for them. It wouldn't make sense for them to be torturing or interrogating prisoners at a black site. It isn't their skill set.

I don't think the gov't/CIA would have soldiers involved in taking prisoners to a black site. Again, just because of the accountability factor and international law. I can see the CIA taking someone they captured to a legal military site (namely if the capture were known to the public).

Look at how the events at Abu Grahib came to light in pretty short order. The non-special operations people in the military have a hard time keeping secrets. If the regular military were involved in torture and extraordinary rendition we'd have known about it much sooner.

[Mbrow]

53. Please everyone, lets remember one thing,

My Lia was the norm, not the exception. Info is from the Nation, not some rumor mill. While I don't have hard evidence of boy sodomy and we do have to make sure we have our facts right, you have to wonder where they came from. The politicians act like this is news when we have been hearing this from many reliable sources for years.

[riderinthestorm]

75. They were feeding those boys! Rectally doncha know!! It was good care taking....

Those mothers just didn't understand the loving efforts of our interrogators!

[Scootaloo]

28. Where are the investigations and arrests?

[nichomachus]

44. "I imagine" "I find it hard to believe" "I don't think"

So you have no facts to back this up. It's just all your own wishful thinking.

[okaawhatever]

54. Well,, the story doesn't use facts. How can I dispute something that hasn't been proven? The author

Seymour Hirsch claims that this happened, but no one has corroborated it. Also, nothing about that came out in the report. Additionally, they are using a quote from where Obama was talking about the CIA interrogation program and then throw in an unfounded allegation and try to conflate the two.

Sorry, I think this post is just Obama bashing and using Obama's confession that we tortured some folks to make it sound like he's apoloogizing for child molesters. It's a ridiculous post and quite frankly, beneath DU.

[Demit]

69. Right. We wouldn't want "torturing some folks" to sound bad. That would be ridiculous!

[okaawhatever]

70. No, we wouldn't want someone to think that Obama was saying that child molesters were

patriots, even though that is what the poster is try to get people to believe.
First that claim hasn't been proven, or even seconded.
Second, Obama wasn't talking about child molesters when he made that comment.
It is a shame that you are co-signing the b.s. of this post

[Demit]

73. I was just struck by your apparent belief in degrees of torture.

I wasn't even referring to the OP. I am noting that you are protesting the idea that Obama would excuse child molesting, but are apparently fine with him excusing regular old torture if it is of adults.

[sunnystarr]

114. Well the facts are out there

because I was watching hearings about the pictures and other testimony on CSPAN at the time. They talked then about pictures/video of young boys being sodomized and the mothers hearing their screams. I didn't forget ... who could. They also said that these pictures wouldn't be released. This was Abu Ghraib testimony.

[Odin2005]

144. He's so deep in denial he is drowing in the river.

[lunasun]

160. +1 thank you

[helpmetohelpyou]

65. Nothing ever happens with state dept approval

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0cb_1291928219



Many of DynCorp's employees are ex-Green Berets and veterans of other elite units, and the company was commissioned by the US government to provide training for the Afghani police. According to most reports, over 95 percent of its $2 billion annual revenue comes from US taxpayers.






Bacha Bazi is a pre-Islamic Afghan tradition that was banned by the Taliban. Bacha boys are eight- to 15-years-old. They put on make-up, tie bells to their feet and slip into scanty women's clothing, and then, to the whine of a harmonium and wailing vocals, they dance seductively to smoky roomfuls of leering older men.

After the show is over, their services are auctioned off to the highest bidder, who will sometimes purchase a boy outright. And by services, we mean anal sex: The State Department has called bacha bazi a "widespread, culturally accepted form of male rape." (While it may be culturally accepted, it violates both Sharia law and Afghan civil code.)

[Sunlei]

74. Not sure if anything from Abu Ghraib horrors are in this report. They have not released any report

[obxhead]

109. I bet Obama could drown a puppy live on TV

And you would find a way to spin it and make it out to be a wonderful thing.

[QC]

134. That puppy looked like it might have some pit bull in it!

The president was protecting us from a potentially vicious animal!!!

[Odin2005]

141. Keep on spinning, bro!

[Capt. Obvious]

155. NOT ALL TORTURERS ARE SODOMIZERS OF YOUNG BOYS

Glad we got that out of the way

[bulloney]

110. Do you notice all of the TV ads referring to the military lately?

I get sick and tired of seeing these ads that paint this broad brush over EVERYONE serving in the military and calling them HEROES and proclaiming that they are PROTECTING OUR FREEDOM.

They're not all heroes and they are not protecting our freedom. If anything, they're jeopardizing our freedom in many cases. Many of them are the torturing perverts you referred to, Autumn. Most of them are not serving to protect our freedom. They are following orders and serving as mercenaries so that shipping lanes are protected and land is taken to lay pipelines and other less-than-noble missions that involve multi-national corporations exploiting people in other countries. Most importantly, in so doing, they're killing and torturing innocent men, women and children who get in their way.

It's been sickening.

[hifiguy]

3. K&R for TRUTH!

[Octafish]

4. And their bosses.

Those who said it was OK. Them, too.

[liberal_at_heart]

5. We have to face some ugly truths about what we have become.

[MissDeeds]

16. Yes we do

We are becoming what I never thought we'd be.

[MindPilot]

6. K & R

If that's patriotism, then I'm the most treason-est turncoat bastard around.

And if these "patriots" go free, then every sex offender in every jail and prison should be pardoned.

[AtomicKitten]

7. Hersh's reportage is devastating.

Thanks for reminding us that they are decidedly not patriots, they are criminals and should be prosecuted.

[MindPilot]

10. how many of the people who committed these acts

are now wearing police uniforms?

[AtomicKitten]

14. ... and work in our privatized prisons?

You raise a very interesting question.

[ellennelle]

36. just last week

i noticed that the police were behaving more like prison guards from baton rouge swamps than policemen.

this is the mentality of authoritarianism, the entitlement of power, the abuse of others with impunity.

it can be seen in rape and abuse of women and children, in racism, in nationalism (face it; that is how bush et al got away with all this for so long, with a hat tip to 24 and that ilk), in classicism.

it expresses that need to be in power and stay there, so everything is a threat. and just abusing that power is - in their eyes - the best way to maintain it.

it is so sick, it has infected so much of the population, thx to fox and the shock jocks.

our capitalist overlords invest in it so they can manipulate the rules to increase their power and keep it in place forever.

when government is in bed with business, you no doubt recognize it as fascism. may as well call it corporatism, mussolini said.

and every last one of them, the lot o' them, all driven by deep, relentless fear.

[ncjustice80]

91. Many.

Honestly, the only uniforms I respect anymore are EMS/Fire and Postal Workers. Fuck the military/police :/

[polichick]

8. Really. Sick beyond words. Wake up Mr. President. Redeem yourself and the country.

[nationalize the fed]

9. k-r the US does the Limbo

how low can it go



Sy Hersh's new book is overdue

[Indydem]

11. There is absolutely no proof that this occurred.

Seymour Hersh has said a lot of things about a lot of people, many of which were made up out of whole cloth.

[Oilwellian]

19. Please do give us some examples...

[Maedhros]

31. That's a very specific allegation - 'made up out of whole cloth'.

Such an allegation requires evidence to be believed.

[ellennelle]

39. yeah, what the heck are you talking about??

hersh is one of the most highly respected (and appropriately feared) journalists of the past century. winner of several awards, including the pulitzer.

you do know he broke the my lai story, right?

let me guess; YOU are made up out of whole cloth.

amirite?

[Indydem]

43. How much proof do you want?

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/features/11719/

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/09/seymour_hersh_obama_administration_nearly_lied_the_u_s_into_war_with_syria/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/08/seymour-hersh-syria-report_n_4409674.html

The guy has a track record of using anonymous sources, making things up, and then just saying "well it wasn't in print." The story about boys being raped never appeared in print and has no other evidence besides "Hersh said so."

Form your own opinions.

[Maedhros]

61. Hersh has more credibilty than you, I'm afraid. [n/t]

[Indydem]

63. So Barack Obama is a liar?

Because Hersh says he is.

[helpmetohelpyou]

67. Obama would never lie

[Maedhros]

68. I'm no fan of the President.

I dislike Presidents who claim the authority to kill anyone, anywhere without due process and based solely on his own discretion.

And I think it's fair to say Obama has uttered his share of lies.

[Odin2005]

146. You are naive and in denial of you think Obama ISN'T a liar.

[LiberalLovinLug]

123. Making things up?

From your first article:
"Sy is willing to tell a story that’s not quite right, in order to convey a Larger Truth. “Sometimes I change events, dates, and places in a certain way to protect people,” Hersh told me. “I can’t fudge what I write. But I can certainly fudge what I say.”

This method is part of a long tradition in journalism. His "lies" are only in altering smaller details to protect the greater story. Stories that he has found out by an anonymous (of course) source, but which he knows he has no actual proof other than the eye witness that won't come forward for fear of retribution.

Obviously putting unsubstantiated charges in print would be more legally risky than saying what he knows in speeches on campuses using coded names and places.

It bolls down to whether you believe a decorated journalist, and accept that he cannot always reveal his sources or details of a story....or you don't.

[riderinthestorm]

76. Yes there is. There's corroborated reports of "rectal feeding". That's code for RAPE imho nt

[Scuba]

12. Kick for pure disgust.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. They were "just following orders".

[Bluenorthwest]

20. Obama speaks for himself, he is the one who is ok with this, not the American people.

He's the one who thinks it is patriotic and understandable to do these things. Not me. Not anyone I know.

[Doctor_J]

22. Sanctimonious Sy strikes again!

Thank God there are still a few outlets where real patriots like Hersch can ply there trade. The president's stance is abominable but not surprising.

[Control-Z]

26. Is it possible that the president

was referring to the entire rest of the military that did not torture?

"a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots"

Is that possible? Is it?

President Obama has never shown a hint of the cruelty you are suggesting.

[Luminous Animal]

37. No. He was talking about the torturers.

Full linear 3 paragraph excerpt from the press conference.

With respect to the larger point of the RDI report itself, even before I came into office I was very clear that in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 we did some things that were wrong. We did a whole lot of things that were right, but we tortured some folks. We did some things that were contrary to our values.

I understand why it happened. I think it’s important when we look back to recall how afraid people were after the Twin Towers fell and the Pentagon had been hit and the plane in Pennsylvania had fallen, and people did not know whether more attacks were imminent, and there was enormous pressure on our law enforcement and our national security teams to try to deal with this. And it’s important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had. And a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots.

But having said all that, we did some things that were wrong. And that's what that report reflects. And that's the reason why, after I took office, one of the first things I did was to ban some of the extraordinary interrogation techniques that are the subject of that report.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/08/01/press-conference-president

[OrwellwasRight]

50. "ban some of the extraordinary interrogation techniques that are the subject of that report"

SOME

Says it all.

[nichomachus]

46. Then he should have made that clear

His best feature is making speeches. He's a lawyer. I wish people would stop trying to find some wiggle room in what he said. Your emperor has no clothes. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but you needed to hear it sooner or later.

You sound like the battered wife making excuses for why her husband beats her. As one woman told me one day when she was trying to get the restraining order rescinded, "He really loves me, but he drinks a lot. That'a why he does it. It's not his fault."

[bbgrunt]

79. exactly. STOP with all the excuses for deliberate political fog talk.

[wildbilln864]

27. k & fucking r! n/t

[arcane1]

29. Did evidence of this ever come out? I remember reading about it on DU at the time...

But I don't recall if it was ever corroborated

[NanceGreggs]

30. Fer fuck's sake ...

“You know, it is important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had,” Obama said. “And a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots.”

That's the quote. Plain English.

Obama did NOT say "and ALL of those folks are real patriots."

Obama did NOT say "and the TORTURERS are real patriots."

I keep seeing this statement dragged out on DU as some kind of proof that Obama called torturers "patriots". He clearly did not. Using the qualifier "and a lot of those folks" clearly indicates that he was NOT including everyone in the group he was referencing as being "patriots".

This kind of statement-twisting is the stuff FOX-News is made of.

[Oilwellian]

33. Oh for fucks sake

He threw a press conference to talk about torturers. It's not the patriots who were being investigated. "Those folks" he's referring to are the torturers and their enablers who were being investigated. The very fact that not one of these criminals has been prosecuted is all I need to know about what Obama THINKS.

[Andy823]

34. No matter what he says

No matte what he does, there are some here on DU that will "always" twist things to go along with their anti Obama agenda. I agree with you, this is the stuff fox news is made of ant spreading this kind of right wing BS is disgusting as hell.

[Odin2005]

149. You are engaging in what we in the Psych community call Denial.

You can't admit that the man you admired for so long is defending monsters so you rationalize and lash out at others.

[Luminous Animal]

40. He was referring specifically to the RDI and the torture and torturers it reveals...

With respect to the larger point of the RDI report itself, even before I came into office I was very clear that in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 we did some things that were wrong. We did a whole lot of things that were right, but we tortured some folks. We did some things that were contrary to our values.

I understand why it happened. I think it’s important when we look back to recall how afraid people were after the Twin Towers fell and the Pentagon had been hit and the plane in Pennsylvania had fallen, and people did not know whether more attacks were imminent, and there was enormous pressure on our law enforcement and our national security teams to try to deal with this. And it’s important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had. And a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/08/01/press-conference-president

[NanceGreggs]

49. Jesus Hussein Christ.

"... and there was enormous pressure on our law enforcement and our national security teams to try to deal with this. And it’s important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had. And a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots."

Clearly, in very plain English, "those folks" he referenced in the second sentence are "the law enforcement and national security teams" he referred to in the previous sentence. He then went on to say that "a lot of those folks" are patriots.

Here, try this one:

"DU has many folks participating on its site, and a a lot of those folks are college-educated white males who live in the northeast."

Now please explain how that sentence means that ALL DU participants are college-educated, white males living in the northeast.

As I said, this is the stuff FOX-News is made of - parsing, twisting, bending words and entire sentences into meaning something other than what they mean in plain, fuckin' English.

[OnyxCollie]

100. Wouldn't you rather spend time at your Democrats for Propaganda website?

I know that I would rather have you spend your time there.

[Capt. Obvious]

158. Is she an apologist for torturers?

[OnyxCollie]

159. Depends on how you define "apologist."

No Apologist Here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x103850

While there are dozens of epithets being thrown at those of us who still support the Democratic Party and President Obama – i.e. Kool-aide drinkers, blind loyalists, lock-stepping-marchers, etc. – the one that baffles me is the term “Obama apologists”.

The term implies that (a) we perceive Obama to have acted in a way that requires an apology – which we don’t – and (b) that the President himself owes some kind of apology to those who disagree with his conduct, his policies, his behaviour – which he doesn’t.

Nothing wrong with not prosecuting torture, and no need for the President to apologize for not prosecuting when nothing is wrong.

[Capt. Obvious]

163. That's such an amazing read

[OnyxCollie]

164. Isn't it, though?

You are not a victim and no one owes you an apology.

It's the Mitt Romney mindset.

[Capt. Obvious]

165. And that whole thread is 5 years old?

I read quite a few members on that thread who act the same way 5 years later.

[Babel_17]

112. "Sanctimonius" provides the context as to who is being referenced

Nobody is postulated as being sanctimonious to anyone except those accused of being involved in torture. It's an effort to think of any reason to be sanctimonious towards anyone else.

sanc·ti·mo·ni·ous
ˌsaNG(k)təˈmōnēəs/
adjective
derogatory
adjective: sanctimonious

making a show of being morally superior to other people.
"what happened to all the sanctimonious talk about putting his family first?"
synonyms: self-righteous, holier-than-thou, pious, pietistic, churchy, moralizing, preachy, smug, superior, priggish, hypocritical, insincere;
informalgoody-goody
"no one wants to hear your sanctimonious hot air"

The only wiggle room I can see is that arguably he was talking about the intelligence institutions, as well as the individuals. So, you might argue he was also alluding to collective guilt being hurled. Imo, the other word to focus on is "folks". I saw that as indicating President Obama was retreating to the time honored tradition of indulging in generalized bullshit.

I see no way of avoiding the conclusion that President Obama was smoothing things over for the intelligence agencies, and every person, connected to the choice to engage in torturing prisoners.

[proverbialwisdom]

129. Well done! (nt)

[pkdu]

151. Haters gonna hate , and the hate runs deep in many. ODS makes plain English say what you

want it to say apparently.

[Capt. Obvious]

156. You guys speak your own language

[okaawhatever]

56. Not to mention the poster is using two separate events and trying to conflate them. They are

taking Obama's admission of torture and then taking a story that is nothing more than hearsay about child molestation and pretending like Obama's remarks were about the child molesters. Talk about dishonesty. Geez.

[Number23]

81. I knew yesterday that some here would have to find a way to make this about Obama

And would search high and low for ways to slam him about this. Even though he ended the program within days of taking office.

And apparently, this is the way they're going to go about it. And the fact that most of the folks yelping over this are the same ones doing the "he sure talks pretty but doesn't do anything" when this is an unmistakable example of him doing something concrete and profound is just hilarious.

[okaawhatever]

85. No kidding. I'm waiting on one of them to say Benghazi. Using his statements about torture and the

military as if they are about child molesters is desperate and pathetic. DU is better than this.

[Bobbie Jo]

87. This is probably

one of the most intellectually dishonest threads that I've seen on this board.

That takes some real doing.

[Major Hogwash]

96. It goes without saying anymore, "Everything is Obama's fault" for a lot of members posting at DU.

Notice how I said "a lot of members", and didn't say ALL of the members.
That would be using a broad brush to make that kind of statement.

And, it is this quantification that has some up in arms over what President Obama said about "a lot" of the members of the CIA.
Of course, President Obama was not referring to the ones responsible for torturing other human beings.
But, people can be absolute assholes on the internet and claim that he did.

That's what the ignore function here at DU is for.
When absolute assholes say something so stupid, so illogical, so despicable about the President, it is very easy to just write them off as grandstanding, racist, pieces of white trash!!!!

Nevertheless, until Robert D. Novak outed Valerie Plame in August of 2003, she was an unknown officer of the CIA.
And if I remember correctly . . . and I think I do . . . she was once considered a hero at this forum.

Yet, I kind of doubt that anyone thinks badly of Plame just because some members of the CIA were responsible within that agency for the torture of other people -- the members of the CIA who were directly responsible for those horrible, despicable acts of barbaric depravity -- do not reflect on Plame's character, her humanity, or her integrity, simply because they were all in the same federal government agency at one time or another.

So yes, I do think that Valerie Plame was a patriot.
And she was an officer in the CIA.
The two are not mutually exclusive of each other in ALL instances.

[steve2470]

99. Obama could cure cancer, and would get lambasted for....

"WELL WHAT THE FUCK TOOK YOU SO LONG ?" smdh

[Odin2005]

147. Fuck, you've gone to the Dark Side, too, Nance?

[Not Me]

32. Jimmy Carter:

[billhicks76]

35. Like To See Hersch Chime In Again Now

Get him in Morning Joe and give us an update on this information. The time is ripe as it's back in the news.

[Oilwellian]

51. I would love to see him speak out again

I've always wondered if those videos were part of the Abu Ghraib photo dump.

[msongs]

38. how many of these torturers now have jobs in US police departments I wonder nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. Deos the definition of 'patriot' involve some minimum standard of morality?

I can't find one that does. It's possible to be a patriot and a rapist, torturer etc. at the same time. Maybe the word 'patriot' shouldn't be invested with so much respect.

[raouldukelives]

45. Very true. What makes them such patriots is they were able to follow orders.

As vile as they may have internally felt those orders to be, they completed the mission. Just like those who currently drone children and families. They are doing what they are ordered to do. Reminds of me of people I read about during the 30's and 40's who were just following orders. We sit and wonder how they could do that to other human beings. It is easy. Just be a good patriot and follow orders.

[Deny and Shred]

86. Nationalism vs Morality

Is is okay to abandon one for the sake of the other?

I thought the whole "30s and40s" episode had answered it, but this report has honed the re-awakened notion of morality as subservient to the Fatherland, or Homeland.

[Blanks]

77. That's what I've been thinking...

A lot of really horrific things have been done throughout history by patriots.

I'm not sure calling someone a patriot is always a compliment. Although from the context it looks like the president meant it as a compliment.

[doc03]

42. Sorry to say I have yet to find one person that thinks

there was anything wrong with torture. That includes people that are Democrats that support Obama, they are all
siding with Bush and Cheney. They say they should do whatever it takes. Same goes for the cop killings, they side with the cops.

[blkmusclmachine]

48. Open your eyes, "doc."

[doc03]

57. What is that supposed to mean? n/t

[G_j]

62. seems you ought to find some new friends nt

[doc03]

71. I live in eastern Ohio with West Virginia and western PA

within 20 miles, extremely conservative areas. This area voted Democrat until 2008 when Obama showed up.
It's a lonely place around here to be even a moderate when it comes to race. One Democrat this morning said
they should worry about all the illegal aliens instead of torturing terrorists. The same way goes with cops killing
people as long as they are black they deserve it. These people will praise Obama sometimes for the economy.
But Obamacare is making us to pay for insurance for people that don't work. COPS are always right when they shoot a black
guy, doesn't matter what the evidence is. Torture is OK for any Muslim.

[G_j]

89. I'm sorry

At least know not everyone everywhere is like that. There are many good people out there who aren't racists, etc.
I realize I am lucky to live in a progressive leaning area. Hang in there.

[Doctor_J]

117. "do whatever it takes" to do what?

These crimes were as useless as they were immoral.

[blkmusclmachine]

47. Sociopaths are in control in DC.

[Generic Other]

55. How incredibly evil do you have to be to even think up shit like this?

It's hateful and anyone who would defend it is a monster.

[sabrina 1]

58. Thank you, I was remembering Seymour Hersch, among other

journalists at that time, who revealed the first hints that there might be horrific things happening in Abu Ghraib.

One of the women who passed out letters was a woman named Noor.

People searched for her later but never found her. She was however featured in the videos even Rumsfeld and that hypocrite, Lindsey Graham, who saw them, that we never saw, admitted that was in them was horrific.

I remember Graham's words after he came from viewing them and Cheney was screaming at them to end the hearings: Mr. VP, please let us do our job, we are talking about MURDER here and RAPE!'

And then it all went away.

[Thespian2]

59. The sooner

all the criminals involved in these horrific crimes are caused to suffer the same inhumanities that they committed on others the better. Dick Cheney should be first in line for a little broomstick sodomy.

[99th_Monkey]

72. Proud to be the 100th REC. K*R nt

[heaven05]

78. Damn!!!

How evil. Out of control evil.....justified by bushco.......and a lot of americans..........

[malaise]

80. +1,000

He just needs to condemn all this madness - there is no other option.

[840high]

82. No words. Just a heavy heart and tears.

[RiverLover]

83. +1

[rhett o rick]

93. +2

[nilesobek]

84. All I know is that whenever I get scared

all I have to do is buy a bunch of flags, wave them around before I do something illegal and horrible. That way I get a pre-emptive pardon for anything I might do. Thanks for teaching me this Mr. President. I will emulate it and put it to good use.





*sarcasm?*

[lbrtbell]

88. These people were not "folks"

They were PEOPLE, human beings subjected to torture, and human beings who were sick enough to commit torture.

"Folks" is a word you might hear on a country music TV program. "Folks" is a cutesy word, unbecoming of a President, which makes me cringe every time I hear it because it reeks of a phony sentiment of, "I'm one of you little people." He's not. He's the President, the most powerful man in the world.

Most of all, "folks" is a word which minimizes the horrible reality of how one group of human beings buried their humanity to torture another group of human beings.

[woo me with science]

90. 142nd rec,

We are fighting for the soul of our nation.

[defacto7]

97. I HATE the word "Folks"

Can ALL the politicians stop using that highly tainted and weighted cliché? It's become tantamount to a tool to appease the stupid and uninformed.

When that word is used all I can think of is Bush and being treated like us poor underlings under the foot of our owners.

[Mkap]

98. To catch a predator

We have pedophiles that work at the CIA, we need stone Phillips to go to the CIA HQ and read the senate report

[merrily]

101. Gee, according to several posters on DU, he never called torturers "real patriots" and

people who said he did were liars and not "real Democrats."

No wonder DU is working overtime to show today's torture is not such a bad thing compared with torture in other times and lands and the real will of the American people (as if popularity makes it any less evil).

I remember the days when I'd actually learn things from DU posters, instead of having to unlearn falsehoods. Guess most of the ones I used to learn from have been purged or "self-deported."

[reddread]

107. conservatism never really stank so much as it does within the Democratic Party

does anyone need two conservative, war criminal Parties,
and ONLY the two?

[QC]

108. He was only referring to the nice torturers, not the meanies. n/t

[treestar]

103. "A lot of these folks" does not mean "all of these folks"

This is becoming a sure sign of ODS. People are jumping on this like it's the Last Word of Judgment Day.

[BubbaFett]

111. but it does mean MANY and not a FEW

[woo me with science]

104. kick

[woo me with science]

105. 167 recs,

the morally bankrupt attempted apologism of the Third Way notwithstanding.

[berni_mccoy]

106. Your Quote is misleadingly cut

Here is the full excerpt in context:

"With respect to the RDI report, even before I came into office I was very clear that in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 we did some things that were wrong. We did a whole lot of things that were right, but we tortured some folks. We did some things that were contrary to our values.

I understand why it happened. I think it’s important when we look back to recall how afraid people were after the Twin Towers fell and the Pentagon had been hit and the plane in Pennsylvania had fallen, and people did not know whether more attacks were imminent, and there was enormous pressure on our law enforcement and our national security teams to try to deal with this. And it’s important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had. And a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots."

[SpankMe]

113. Dang, this article is 10 years old.

I wish this horrifying video would come out and really force a revolution here.

[Oilwellian]

122. And there is still no justice for the victims

of these despicable crimes.

[woo me with science]

115. kick

[samsingh]

116. that's not patriotism accept to imbeciles like toby keith

[Central Scruitinizer]

118. President Obama must pardon the whole crew of the BFEE torture brigade.

Doing so would allow him to list every person, and their precise charge, with evidence thus publicly tying them to these charges making it impossible for them to travel where nations extradite to the Hague for war crimes trial.
I have not forgiven him for "looking forward" in 2009, and after years of trusting his rope a dope strategy only to see him getting outpointed in every round, we all must call the Whitehouse and demand this pardon.

[Autumn]

119. Kick

[woo me with science]

120. And again.

[Autumn]

121. There are many OPs that need to be kicked, this is one.

[woo me with science]

131. You said it.

And again.

[7962]

124. He's not referring to them.

Hes referring to the folks who didnt do anything wrong, yet continued to work hard at their jobs

[woo me with science]

125. kick. Stayed at the very top of the Greatest Page for a long, long time.

DU does not buy the amoral swill of the corporate/MIC propaganda machine.

[BootinUp]

126. Always assuming the worst of the President, explains your lack of comprehension...nt

[Oilwellian]

133. Well...it is hard to comprehend our president

He knows we sodomized Iraqi boys and has chosen to cover up the crime. Combine that with our just witnessing Obama whip the Democrats into voting for Jamie Dimon's latest pet Bill, is it any wonder why we assume the worst?

[woo me with science]

127. 214 recs

Nobody is buying the amoral apologist propaganda swill.

[BeanMusical]

128. Another thread infested with torture apologists.

Nauseating.

[bigwillq]

132. Because Obama!!!!!!111

We must stand with our leed-er.

[woo me with science]

130. kick

[Oilwellian]

136. Thank you for kicking this thread, Woo

It far surpassed the response I was hoping for, and for very good reason. I chose to highlight this crime that has gone unpunished for the past ten years, because I knew it couldn't be defended. Obama may think he can wrap up the issue of torture once and for all, but it is my hope that crimes like this will continue to fester in what is left of America's conscience.

[woo me with science]

140. IMO it's one of the most important threads on DU.

I see it as screaming "2+2=4" in a swill of propaganda, apologism, diversion, and minimization.

We all need to wake up at night with images of these torture centers and what they must look, smell, and feel like to those being sodomized and having their bones broken by the government of the United States.

Thank you for refusing to let this become abstract.

[Autumn]

135. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack

of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It’s going to come out.”
That's the important issue.
Everybody is upset at what Obama said, how he fucking said it and how Obama is being smeared. That is what people here are concerned about.

That is what the fucking government did. Our fucking government. The fucking politicians we elected are hiding this. This is fucking crazy If those tapes would come out and people could hear those boys shrieking Hell would break loose

[Oilwellian]

137. This story has had me seething for ten years

When Obama said I shouldn't feel sanctimonious about it, I lost it, and here we are. The ACLU has been trying to have the photos and videos released for the past ten years. In 2009, Obama said he would release them but that quickly changed and he's been fighting against their release ever since.

I agree with you, if the American people became aware of this particular crime, they may change their opinion on torture. Lofty, I know, but it will make a dent.

[Autumn]

138. Ten years and the outrage is focused on what Obama said and the way

different ways people parse it. What a fucking sick joke this all is.

[JonLP24]

139. That comment from Obama--I can see several different interpretations

One thing that is clear, he isn't condemning the torture because if he wanted to, he could express the outrage at those who engaged in the practice (instead he says "feel too sanctimonious in retrospect&quot . I know personally, I couldn't be engage--much less be a part of something so devastatingly cruel.

Look at it from this perspective--The Obama administration never held those accountable, concealed, fought for redaction & delay of the torture report. Actions speak louder than words.

Who will take charge and actually do something to end this shameful chapter in American history?

[benz380]

150. Rec n/t

[woo me with science]

161. kick

[benz380]

162. ditto

[JEB]

166. Once again.

http://rense.com/general37/char.htm

[woo me with science]

167. kick