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Mon Dec 15, 2014, 01:12 PM

Let Justice Flow ......

This morning, John Yoo appeared on CNN to attempt to deny and justify torture. Yoo is, of course, the primary author of the “legal opinion” that allowed the Cheney-Bush administration to torture individuals they deemed “enemies.” I have found that either watching Yoo on television, or reading his writings, extremely troubling for years.He is an easily-identified enemy of that which I consider Good in our nation.

Yet today, there was a spark of hope -- the hope that this treacherous being will be held responsible for his crimes. Despite the current policy of the Obama administration, there is a possibility -- though small -- that the tide could be turning. It was almost enjoyable to see this smug, self-righteous shithead looking very uncomfortable.

As is well-documented, Yoo was one of Dick Cheney’s lap dogs, who -- when the military and intelligence community was given a green light to torture “suspects,” and they requested legal authority to do what they knew was highly illegal -- took pride in writing an opinion he believed would secure his place in history. For years, Yoo had attacked President Bill Clinton for claiming authority (according to Yoo) that went well beyond that provided for in the US Constitution. From the warmth and comfort of Cheney’s lap, however, Yoo would claim that the Bush administration did not need to be concerned with the Constitution, federal law, international law, or international treaties.

Many here will remember the 2005 debate, between Yoo and Notre Dame law professor Douglas Cassel. In the debate, the following exchange took place:


DC: “If the President deems that he has to torture someone, including by crushing the testicles of the person’s child, there is no law that can stop him?”

JY: “No treaty.”

DC: “Also no law by Congress -- that is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo?”

JY: “I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.”


Yoo and fellow Cheney lap-dod David Addington would testify before Congress on the topic of torture in June, 2008. That meeting became ugly at times, as Yoo and Addington flaunted their knowledge that there was no plan to ever hold them responsible for their crimes. The Cheney-Bush era was a dark time in this land -- hell, on this planet -- and those here on this forum will remember the disappointment that the pair were assured, before the ‘08 election, that they were golden.

This morning, Yoo seemed a tad bit less cocky. When asked directly about some of the information documented in the Senate report, he claimed that this was a questionable source -- that the committee that investigated was dominated by Democrats, and that thus, any claims made were not “proven.” When confronted with the fact that the information was documented by CI records (and not simply democratic guesses), Yoo went from babbling about a lackof witness testimony to saying that “if any of those things happened,” it went beyond the law of the land.

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

This afternoon/evening, I was at a high school girls basketball tournament. I sat with a couple, both doctors, as their daughter was engaged in the finals of the junior varsity contest -- they won! -- and we were discussing politics. The husband is my oldest brother’s age, and was active in the anti-war efforts of the 1960s and early ‘70s.

His younger sister was in the “Weather Underground.” Some of their social group went to prison for some of the crazy shit they did back then. Two of my uncles, who were legendary detectives, had busted them back in the day, and so she was always hostile to me, simply because of my last name. So I was surprised to learn that, when this guy moved back east after living in California for decades, she had spoken highly of me in terms of socio-political activism.

This fellow was not only outraged by the Senate’s releasing part of their investigation on torture, but also feeling that our nation has become so corrupt that it cannot be set on the right path. He expressed his frustration that, despite so many technologies (such as the internet), people are less organized today than they were 40 years ago. It would be accurate to say that he voiced the combined hopelessness and helplessness that defines so many Good People’s outlook today.

I, of course, disagreed with him. Respectfully. I understand and appreciate exactly why so many people think and feel what he thinks and feels.

And so it began: this gentleman began asking me questions, to see if I was familiar with a wide range of issues and theories that have influenced him. I think he was surprised that I am very familiar with literally every bit of the esoteric radical thought that influenced his generation. So much so, that he invited me and my daughter to his home after the games. He had a couple of friends coming over, and he said they would “find (me) fascinating.“ I explained that, while I’d love to continue the conversation, there were several boxing cards on television, and that I had guests coming over. (He laughed and said he hadn’t associated me with my family’s addiction to what he considers a brutal sport.)

His daughter, in the 9th grade, looks up to my daughter, a senior. She asked her parents if she could stay to watch my girl play? They said that, with company expected, they couldn’t; more, she wouldn’t have transportation. (She’s a “transfer” student from another town in another county.) So I said that she could get a ride with my daughter and I. Some day soon, we’d continue our conversation …..

The last topic we had discussed was the Nation of Islam, and specifically Minister Malcolm X. That got me thinking about one of the messages that remained consistent throughout Malcolm’s career -- which, although being short, covered a lot of territory associated with individual human evolution.

Someone’s been lying to you and I. In fact, a whole lotta people have been lying to us. Most of them are actually parroting a lie they believe, but it’s still a lie. And a few of them have been purposely lying to us.

That first group is afraid of the truth. They are scared of their best potential. Now that’s important for us to fully understand : most people are afraid of their best potential as human beings (which includes as “citizens”).

That very few also fear the truth. They hate the truth. And they fear that if you learn the truth -- if you and I learn the Truth -- it will bring forth our better potential. And maybe even our best potential as citizens.

As I view things in the context of “systems,” I’d say that our society is not unlike a large high school classroom. A shithead like Yoo, Cheney, and/or Bush are simply the kids we couldn’t stand, and wanted nothing to do with. They were convinced they were “superior,” simply because of their family’s economic status. They acted as if our lives were insignificant, and of no value. And they expected us to accept their view, and submit to their rule.

By no coincidence, these are that minority -- say, the 1% -- who continue to lie to you and I. They want us to believe that there is nothing that we can do alter the course they have determined for everyone else. The path that creates comfort for their ilk, and causes suffering for us. I’m guessing that you can remember the one-percenters from your high school. I surely remember those from my grade.

Two cousins, from the “family” that runs one of the biggest energy corporations in the northeast. I had spoken on DU last week about one’s “secret meeting” with Senator Clinton in Sidney. When I began speaking out against hydro racking a few years back, they had the audacity to try to hire me as their corporation’s “environmental consultant.”

No, that wasn’t going to happen. I will not submit to the John Yoo-types. I will not be bought by anyone. And I will not be silenced. In fact, I’m going to continue to speak out, and encourage others to re-evaluate the current system. I agree 100% with the doctor I sat near: things are actually far worse today, than they were in 1968. Our nation is being severely damaged, and I’m not talking about foreign enemies. No, it’s those kids we couldn’t stand in high school.

Let’s get back to organizing our classmates. Let’s get working on having the shitheads facing some consequences for their vile behavior. Let’s regain our Power.

Thank you for reading this.
H2O Man

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Arrow 82 replies Author Time Post
Reply Let Justice Flow ...... (Original post)
H2O Man Dec 2014 OP
mmonk Dec 2014 #1
H2O Man Dec 2014 #16
napkinz Dec 2014 #2
H2O Man Dec 2014 #17
napkinz Dec 2014 #23
Journeyman Dec 2014 #26
sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #20
H2O Man Dec 2014 #49
sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #77
spanone Dec 2014 #3
H2O Man Dec 2014 #18
spanone Dec 2014 #19
Zorra Dec 2014 #4
Dont call me Shirley Dec 2014 #6
Dont call me Shirley Dec 2014 #7
sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #21
H2O Man Dec 2014 #24
Zorra Dec 2014 #60
sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #68
H2O Man Dec 2014 #69
sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #70
2banon Dec 2014 #37
H2O Man Dec 2014 #50
CaliforniaPeggy Dec 2014 #5
malthaussen Dec 2014 #12
H2O Man Dec 2014 #28
Dont call me Shirley Dec 2014 #8
H2O Man Dec 2014 #29
Dont call me Shirley Dec 2014 #30
H2O Man Dec 2014 #32
Dont call me Shirley Dec 2014 #43
LineReply ,
blkmusclmachine Dec 2014 #9
H2O Man Dec 2014 #33
woofless Dec 2014 #10
H2O Man Dec 2014 #34
Enthusiast Dec 2014 #11
H2O Man Dec 2014 #35
Thespian2 Dec 2014 #13
H2O Man Dec 2014 #36
Thespian2 Dec 2014 #47
AzDar Dec 2014 #14
H2O Man Dec 2014 #39
BobbyBoring Dec 2014 #15
H2O Man Dec 2014 #44
Octafish Dec 2014 #22
H2O Man Dec 2014 #45
voteearlyvoteoften Dec 2014 #25
H2O Man Dec 2014 #51
sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #78
Scuba Dec 2014 #27
H2O Man Dec 2014 #52
sabrina 1 Dec 2014 #79
Scuba Dec 2014 #81
riqster Dec 2014 #31
H2O Man Dec 2014 #53
2banon Dec 2014 #38
H2O Man Dec 2014 #54
2banon Dec 2014 #75
niyad Dec 2014 #40
H2O Man Dec 2014 #55
sammy750 Dec 2014 #41
H2O Man Dec 2014 #57
shanti Dec 2014 #42
H2O Man Dec 2014 #58
byronius Dec 2014 #46
H2O Man Dec 2014 #59
Beowulf42 Dec 2014 #48
H2O Man Dec 2014 #63
rosesaylavee Dec 2014 #56
H2O Man Dec 2014 #64
rosesaylavee Dec 2014 #82
Hekate Dec 2014 #61
H2O Man Dec 2014 #65
gordianot Dec 2014 #62
H2O Man Dec 2014 #66
Liberal_Dog Dec 2014 #67
H2O Man Dec 2014 #72
underpants Dec 2014 #71
H2O Man Dec 2014 #73
burrowowl Dec 2014 #74
calimary Dec 2014 #76
G_j Dec 2014 #80

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 01:34 PM

1. + a million.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 05:00 PM

16. Thanks a million!

And how are things your way?

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 01:41 PM

2. ...











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Response to napkinz (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 05:06 PM

17. Thanks for this!

Much appreciated.

Yoo is such a smug slug.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 05:40 PM

23. he's on THE LIST ...





see full-size image:

https://www.aclu.org/national-security/infographic-torture-architects (Hover over a former government official ... to learn more about their role in the torture program.)





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Response to napkinz (Reply #23)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 05:55 AM

26. Thanks for the link. Very useful to share with the uninformed . . .

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Response to napkinz (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 05:13 PM

20. That man is monster. All the more so because he attempts to cloak his

evil heart under the cover of 'civility'.

He was on the list of six of Bush/Cheney's torturers in Spain to be prosecuted.

I had some hope it might happen back then. But then we learned from the Wikileaks cables that this administration put pressure on the Spanish Court to end their case against them.

The case is still open. Perhaps now the climate is better for justice to be done.

I know one thing, as H20 Man says, the rats are running scared, they aren't as cocky as they used to be.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:07 PM

49. That "gang of six"

seem to lack that which separates human beings from machines. And I say that, as someone who believes in human redemption -- I have witnessed the change in some "very bad" people, who end up "very good" people. But in those cases, the seed of character was in place, to begin with.

In the sport of boxing, there's a wonderful saying about character: "Those born round don't die square." I think that applies to these six mutant necroconservatives.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #49)

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 03:23 AM

77. I believe in redemption also, but these people, and I would add some more, though

I think the goal of the court was to start with the 'underlings' and then move up, assuming testimony and witnesses would provide a basis for the eventual prosecution of the higher ups who orchestrated these abominable torture policies.

I do not believe any of them are redeemable. None have shown any sign of remorse.

Perhaps if they had to come face to face with the victims of their brutality, a few might begin to see them as human beings.

But I think I am being too kind.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 01:42 PM

3. k&r...

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Response to spanone (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 05:06 PM

18. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 05:12 PM

19. you're welcome.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 02:25 PM

4. Primarily working outside the system appears to me to be our only option.

Things really are far worse than they were in 1968.

Our primary direct action power, at this time, lies in not giving the shitheads our power. They need to control us in order to control us, they need us to run their unequal, unjust profit system in order for them to maintain and increase their power.

The way for us to manifest our power is to simply not participate in their game. I see organizing and engaging in a massive general strike and boycott, and flash protests as our only real option for bringing about change at this point. If we are simply staying home, not buying anything, not driving, not buying anything, not paying any bills, not participating in the system at all, we can collapse it. The billionaires will rapidly lose billions of dollars. The system will collapse, and there will have to be a plan in place that will enable the 99% to survive tolerably until our demands and goals are met.

When I was participating in Occupy actions, it occurred to me that the major flaw in sustaining our action was exposing ourselves to police brutality, and that eventually this brutality would force us out of the parks and off the streets. And naturally, it did. it's not rocket science, there simply are not enough people in the US who are willing to risk getting beaten up and imprisoned to support and sustain a non-violent movement that is countered by authorities who can commit acts of violence against protesters with impunity.

We tried to shut down the ports on the west coast, but by that time the media had perfected its propaganda attack brainwashing of the general public, and they successfully turned public opinion against us at this time. Here at DU, the mouthpieces for the status quo were busy denouncing us, in every way possible, day after day. This is something we will have to deal with if we organize, and act.

However, if we are simply staying home and shut down the talking heads, taking some extended family holiday time as a form of protest and non-violent resistance, it would be quite a while before the 1% owned government mandated that the police could legally force us out of our homes and go back to work. By the time they got to that point, terminal damage would already be done to the system.

If we could sustain the strike/boycott long enough, the PTB would be forced into negotiation long before things got to the point where the police would be forcibly taking people from their homes, and forcing them to go back to work.

Two weeks of a focused, dedicated, truly massive general strike and boycott would collapse the markets. The overall effect on the economy would be devastating; we would have to have some type of hopefully workable plan in place in order to ensure continuity of supply lines after transition. If necessary, the 99% might have to assume control of the factors and means of production. etc. Drastic, necessary, critical change will require pain and sacrifice at first; there's no way around this.

A non-violent revolution of this nature would take long term careful planning,critical mass support, massive numbers of participants, and dedicated organizers.

I believe you are correct, starting to organize now is what will make non-violent revolution successful when circumstances deteriorate to the point where enough people realize, and are done with, putting up with having no other options for ending the corruption, injustice, inequality, and oppression that is imposed upon them by the PTB with impunity.

This is a simple idea for developing complex plan. If anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it. Whatever the case, it is crystal clear that things must change, because our government is publicly supporting torture with impunity, and the torturers are practically bragging about their accomplishments in the torture arena on public television nationwide.

And not only have our leaders not taken any action whatsoever to punish the ghouls who sanction and commit acts of torture, they make excuses for them similar to justifications such as "they were just doing their job".

Organization.

From Fire to Autonomy: Zapatistas, 20 Years of Walking Slowly

On January 1, 1994, the NAFTA free trade agreement entered Mexico with vigor, promising foreign investment and economic prosperity at the expense of the plunder of natural resources. NAFTA is largely credited for flooding the Mexican market with subsidized corn from the United States, which decimated farmers' livelihoods and provoked massive migration to the United States. Two years prior to NAFTA's implementation, former President Carlos Salinas opened the floodgates to land privatization by reforming Article 27, which had protected communally owned land known as ejidos, created during the Mexican revolution. Thus, the introduction of NAFTA provided the perfect context for the uprising of the indigenous guerillas who formed the EZLN.

However, the 1994 uprising was not a spontaneous endeavor. Twenty years before, Marxist-inspired guerillas arrived in the Lacandon jungle in Chiapas to unite with members of marginalized indigenous communities. In 1983, they formally created the EZLN. They drew inspiration from Emiliano Zapata, who fought in the Mexican revolution in the early 20th century, declaring that the land belonged to those who worked it. Continuing his revolutionary tradition, the EZLN rebelled to demand work, land, shelter, food, health, education, independence, democracy, freedom, justice and peace for all the Mexican people. Their ideas rapidly gained traction as a confluence of indigenous cosmo-vision, Marxist philosophy and progressive theological thought to counter dispossession and poverty. The EZLN germinated the seed of "Ya Basta - Enough Already!"

Chiapas, is rich in flora and fauna, containing between 50 and 80 percent of Mexico's biodiversity, water reserves and mineral resources. However, the richness of natural resources has never translated into prosperity for the population, especially the indigenous people who often live in extreme poverty in marginalized communities. It is estimated that 40 percent of the state's population speak an indigenous language, and the EZLN is composed of Tzotzil, Tzeltal, Chol and Tojolabal communities. The Zapatistas denounced their marginalization in the first declaration of the Lacandon Jungle: "We have been denied the most elemental preparation so they can use us as cannon fodder and pillage the wealth of our country. They don't care that we have nothing, absolutely nothing, not even a roof over our heads, no land, no work, no health care, no food nor education."

In the communiqué released by the Zapatistas to celebrate the 20th anniversary, Subcomandante Marcos described the motivations that prompted their rebellion: "It was not the struggle to survive, but a sense of duty that put us here, for better or for worse. It was the necessity to do something in the face of millennial injustice, the indignation we felt was the most overwhelming characteristic of humanity."

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/21427-from-fire-to-autonomy-zapatistas-20-years-of-walking-slowly


"The global power of the financial centers is so great, that they can afford not to worry about the political tendency of those who hold power in a nation, if the economic program (in other words, the role that nation has in the global economic megaprogram) remains unaltered. The financial disciplines impose themselves upon the different colors of the world political spectrum in regards to the government of any nation. The great world power can tolerate a leftist government in any part of the world, as long as the government does not take measures that go against the needs of the world financial centers. But in no way will it tolerate that an alternative economic, political and social organization consolidate. For the megapolitics, the national politics are dwarfed and submit to the dictates of the financial centers. It will be this way until the dwarfs rebel . . " ~ Marcos



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Response to Zorra (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 03:46 PM

6. Refuse to participate. Hit the rich where they listen, their money stream.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 03:46 PM

7. Refuse to participate. Hit the rich where they listen, their money stream.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 05:22 PM

21. What an excellent post, Zorra. I wanted to highlight a few things, but people

should read ALL OF IT.

I see organizing and engaging in a massive general strike and boycott,


Yes! Don't buy their stuff. Starve the Beast. Cut off their source of power.


This however echoes my own thoughts so clearly, about street protests giving them the power to beat people literally over the head, imprison them, send out their military, I mean 'police' with their military toys to show off, and they get OVERTIME also.


When I was participating in Occupy actions, it occurred to me that the major flaw in sustaining our action was exposing ourselves to police brutality, and that eventually this brutality would force us out of the parks and off the streets. And naturally, it did. it's not rocket science, there simply are not enough people in the US who are willing to risk getting beaten up and imprisoned to support and sustain a non-violent movement that is countered by authorities who can commit acts of violence against protesters with impunity.

We tried to shut down the ports on the west coast, but by that time the media had perfected its propaganda attack brainwashing of the general public, and they successfully turned public opinion against us at this time. Here at DU, the mouthpieces for the status quo were busy denouncing us, in every way possible, day after day. This is something we will have to deal with if we organize, and act.

However, if we are simply staying home and shut down the talking heads, taking some extended family holiday time as a form of protest and non-violent resistance, it would be quite a while before the 1% owned government mandated that the police could legally force us out of our homes and go back to work. By the time they got to that point, terminal damage would already be done to the system.


YES!! Deny them the opportunity to earn their overtime and to show off their military toys.

Way more effective is to cut off the source of their power, without any risk at all.

I'm sure after a while, they will find a way to invade people in their homes, they've already eliminated the 4th Amendment, but it won't matter if their money stops flowing.

So a huge campaign to boycott their garbate, we don't need any of it.

I can picture a huge demonstration at some point where everyone BURNS THEIR CREDIT CARDS. Sort of like burning draft cards.

Great post, it should be an OP.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 05:53 PM

24. Very interesting, thoughtful response!

Thanks for this -- although I must admit that, when I first read it, I was a little confused: had I just woke up to DU circa 2003, when the discussions on this forum were at this level so frequently that DU:GD was essential for sharing insights with like-minded people? (Those who were here then know exactly what I mean!)

Perhaps the most interesting of the points you raise -- by no coincidence, my favorite -- sheds light on the concept of "power." Your post reminds me of one of the long letters that Rubin "Hurricane" Carter wrote to me in 1979, about that same concept. The word "power," he noted, came from the Latin root "posse," meaning "to be able ..."

The 1% is convinced they have "power," and are capable of controlling others. In fact, while they may have the self-discipline to earn a university degree, and be in a position that impacts a wide circle around them, they have not harnessed the true power-potential. Rather, they are both channeling, and being channeled, by destructive energy. And that is distinct from the cleansing destructive power of nature.....

True power for an individual can only come by the self-discipline that makes mastering one's self possible. And then being able to navigate the natural world, of which humanity is simply one part. Thus, in the context that goes with your comments, that discipline involves -- no, requires -- not only that non-cooperation with the current political malignancy that is poisoning our nation, but preparing to anticipate the very serious dangers that will arise rapidly, when the system shits the bed. And preparing to move forward, in a direction that benefits humanity.

I think that the Occupy Movement represents the updated Poor People's Campaign that King was planning in late 1967 and early '68. King's Poor People's Campaign was recognized, at the time, as a great threat to the comfort of the 1%, and the ability of their machine to run. The machine was not running smoothly, by any means, and King's plan was revolutionary. It was non-violent, patriotic, and held the promise of real change in how the nation functioned. Call it "mere speculation" on my part, but I think the 1% see Occupy in that same light.

It can be difficult to identify the best territory between participating in the machine, versus simply withdrawing from the larger society. Now, I respect individuals and groups that function in that margin -- the hermits and the people of communes, etc. But a large-scale transition to a different cultural reality will include all the pain and suffering of a birthing experience, even under the best of circumstance. We need people who understand a lot of the sub-systems that are required for survival.

I really hope that you keep going with this conversation, and that others add their thoughts, as well.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:40 PM

60. I agree with all of that. Having an effective "organization" in place and accurately anticipating

the problems that will arise when the factors and means of production are shut down is primary to long term success.

Things are not yet to the point where enough of the people will say "Enough already!" and consent to having their comfort systems are disrupted by extreme political and economic change. But as fascism progresses unchecked, things will eventually get to that point. If we are adequately prepared when "Bastille Day" comes, instead of angry mobs breaking out the guillotines, we can take over the factors and means of production and simply replace the 1% as the administrators of the systems necessary for group survival.

It's going to take a lot of long term effort and imagination to cover all the bases, but having a people's alternative organization ready to take over and keep things running, and running in a positive, constructive direction will be critical to keeping the 1% from regaining control.

There are a few things we know for sure about the 1%: they are insatiable, destructive, ruthless, and conscienceless. They won't take being usurped well.

Unfortunately, I am strapped for time and can't post much this week but thanks for your fine OP, and saying that my post was like a post from 2003, that's a big compliment in my world.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:03 PM

68. I agree with this completely as it was more than obvious how frightened they

were during the street protests:

I think that the Occupy Movement represents the updated Poor People's Campaign that King was planning in late 1967 and early '68. King's Poor People's Campaign was recognized, at the time, as a great threat to the comfort of the 1%, and the ability of their machine to run. The machine was not running smoothly, by any means, and King's plan was revolutionary. It was non-violent, patriotic, and held the promise of real change in how the nation functioned. Call it "mere speculation" on my part, but I think the 1% see Occupy in that same light.


I believe they are equally frightened now by the protests against Police Brutality, against THEIR ARMY who they depend on to protect THEM against the 'mob' if and when it rises up against them.

The poor and minorities are their biggest threat in a way. They have left them with little to lose.

FDR understood that to prevent what the 1% is so afraid of it was necessary to create a fair and equal society where the people were not so desperate they would be driven to rise up in anger.

While I believe he deeply cared about the people, I think he also had in mind that his own class, who hated him and who apparently weren't smart enough to understand his philosophy and how his policies would protect them also, would also survive more happily if EVERYONE had the means to have a decent life.

We have had lots of brilliant leaders, like MLK and FDR eg, appear at critical times in history. I think such a person or persons, will appear again.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #68)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:38 PM

69. Great points.

One of the "dangers" that the 1% sees in the current marches against police brutality -- which was also a factor in Occupy -- was that the good cops (and there are good cops) listen to those protesting. It puts these good cops in touch were their humanity, and sense of community. And those are not what the powers-that-be want.

When we consider the militarization of domestic police forces, perhaps the single greatest dangers is that it instills a sense of "us-versus-them" in the police's consciousness. Indeed, it cannot be other than this, because they become an occupying force. Even a small breakdown in that wall of separation is recognized as a significant threat to the 1%, for it threatens to connect police and community in a good way.

Now, another thing about Occupy: it was largely a movement without identified "leaders." This creates both good and bad potentials. The media sure became cranky when reporters couldn't interview the "leaders," for example. Yet this was because everyone involved was beginning to follow themselves -- they were able to think for themselves! Now, that concept upset the 1% to no end, for reasons so obvious that they need not be stated here.

When average citizens are able to identify their internal MLK and/or RFK, it creates a dynamic capable of tumbling walls.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #69)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:45 PM

70. The MSM could not tolerate the 'no leader' concept. One of the reasons why

OWS chose to take that route was because they knew that those who would be waiting to crack down on the movement, would take out any leader first. That would be the strategy with the idea that once the leaders are gone, the movement would be over.

As for your points about the police, I absolutely agree.

One Police Chief had the audacity to join the protesters to say that 'Black Lives Matter'. The reaction to him has been fierce for his fellow cops, but so far, he has held firm.

Hopefully that will give courage to others who may feel the same way, but are afraid to say so.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 11:44 AM

37. Excellent post, needs to be it's own OP. :)

 

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Response to 2banon (Reply #37)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:08 PM

50. Definitely!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 03:09 PM

5. I make it a point, my dear H20 Man, to always read what you have to say...

You have joined a very select group. Your writing is always clear, to the point, and correct.

Thank you.

K&R

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 04:10 PM

12. Ain't dat da trut.

You might say that H2O man is one of those who are not afraid of their potential.

-- Mal

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 08:27 AM

28. Well, thank you!

I appreciate hearing that! Especially because I had debated "trashing" this essay after I completed it, because I was unsure of if it made any sense or not.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 03:52 PM

8. They, the uber-rich, are working very very hard at promoting the lie that they are not the ones

causing and promoting all this misery and suffering. When a critical mass refuses to believe the lies of the uber-rich, whoo, the uber-rich will be in some heap of big mess.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 08:56 AM

29. Right.

My late friend Rubin used to tell me that I should move my family to Canada, where he had re-located. (He joked that it wouldn't be as big a move for me, as it was for him, as I live in NYS while he was from NJ.) He often said that it wouldn't be long before the American tax-payers realized that had been had, and that this would cause the empire to tumble.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:06 AM

30. But we cannot move away from the problem. The R.E. are like invasive kudzu, they invade everywhere

and are difficult to eradicate. We must stand our ground where we are. We must refuse to participate in the lies of the uber-rich. We must refuse to participate in their violence, their thievery, their abuse. We must spread the truth about this wherever we are until critical mass is met.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #30)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 11:32 AM

32. Exactly!

I remember one evening, when Rubin was talking about this with my sons and nephews. The oldest of the three nephews (they are brothers) said that as young adults, they recognized the truth in what he was saying, but that they believed it was their turn to carry on the Good Fight to bring about positive change in America. And I remember Rubin looking at me, with that beautiful smile, and saying, "Damn, Brother Pat, you've done a good job!"

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 12:49 PM

43. You, H2O Man, are so lucky to have children who listen to you and are willing to pick up the torch.

My kids are stuck in the "it's all about me" mentality. I keep trying, though. Maybe someday, after many hard lessons, they will hear.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 03:54 PM

9. ,

 

,

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Response to blkmusclmachine (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 11:33 AM

33. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 04:03 PM

10. Right on Pat.

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Response to woofless (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 11:34 AM

34. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 04:05 PM

11. Kicked and recommended!

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 11:36 AM

35. Thanks!

Much appreciated.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 04:18 PM

13. Thank you, H2O Man

Yes, I remember the days when we all worked hard to stop a cruel war in Viet Nam. And continued to work hard on other issues.

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Response to Thespian2 (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 11:42 AM

36. Right.

It was a strange, dangerous-but-beautiful time. I recognize that I may be prone to selective memory, but despite the seriousness and horror of the situations, there was a real belief in the possibility of positive change. The music and art said "Yes!" to life.

This might sound odd -- coming from me, that's no surprise -- but even the "substance use and abuse" tended to be an effort to expand consciousness, whereas today, most of it seems to be to block feelings and pain.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #36)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 02:30 PM

47. Again

Thank you, sir. I really appreciate the depth of your understanding. I believe music and art, plus a bit of substance abuse, is all that keeps us sane.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 04:23 PM

14. Prosecute ALL War Criminals!!

 

We are illegitimate until we do.

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Response to AzDar (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 11:48 AM

39. I agree.

I just came home from a medical appointment. We talked a lot about "current events." I do not think that the shining a light on the torture will enrage America's enemies; it's not a surprise to them. Rather, it will upset all of the decent folks we consider friends.

The failure to prosecute will enrage others. It should. And it should enrage everyone in this country who believes in the rule of law.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 04:47 PM

15. Kick! Rec!

As always, beautifully stated and I'm in 100% agreement. The most discouraging thing to me is the huge number of complete lunk heads that continue to swallow the lies. These poor saps are led to believe that they are well "Informed" and are "Critical thinkers". They haven't drunk the Look Aide like we " Low information " libtards. They stay in the bubble and are constantly bombarded with bull shit that reinforces their wrongheadedness.

If only they would take a month or two of and just think, it's possible they could see the truth. It's really sort of obvious IF, you THINK!

I have a couple of personal wing nuts I've been working on for a while and I'm slowly making sense to them. As difficult as it is, I encourage everyone to adopt one or two and give it a try. If we end the division that has been so cleverly crafted, it's all over for the PTB. That's the only way I can see out of this mesa.

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Response to BobbyBoring (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 01:19 PM

44. That was the

approach that the great Cesar Chavez advocated: one person at a time. I love that you reminded us of that! Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 05:23 PM

22. Thank you, H20 Man for grokking the infinite potential of each human being.

“Someday, after mastering the winds, the waves, the tides and gravity, we shall harness for God the energies of love, and then, for a second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.” ― Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

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Response to Octafish (Reply #22)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 01:23 PM

45. I was lucky

to have two mentors -- Dr. Rubin "Hurricane" Carter and Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman -- who patiently taught me that the Power of Ideas fuels human growth.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Dec 15, 2014, 06:23 PM

25. Question Authority

True now more than ever.

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Response to voteearlyvoteoften (Reply #25)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:21 PM

51. Right!

" A ship's captain has the moral obligation to his passengers to avoid a ship-wreck, if he can; and a civilized person has the same moral obligation -- not only to themselves -- to be skeptical and to demand the proof of any and all statements that claim to be of fact! Because in the final analysis all tyranny rests in fraud and deceit, in convincing people to accept a false assumption on face-value, and any people or person who for on moment abandons or suspends that questioning spirit, has -- at that very moment -- actually betrayed all of humanity!"

-- Rubin "Hurricane" Carter; letter to H2O Man (from solitary confinement); February 20, 1979.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #51)

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 03:27 AM

78. Beautiful quote. He appears to have been an amazing man. You were fortunate to have known

him.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 08:10 AM

27. Another great post from one of DU's finest posters. Thanks H2O Man.

 

Never give up.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #27)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:22 PM

52. Thank you very much!

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Response to Scuba (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 03:40 AM

79. 'One of DU's finest posters'! I remember when I first came here, H20 Man

was one of the reasons I stayed. And there were others, the conversations here were different then, the writing far superior to what it is today. With a few exceptions. I don't come here the way I used to, knowing I will find thoughtful, intelligent writing, and ACTIVISTS who worked so hard to get Democrats back in power.

I am still here only because of people like H20 Man and a few others.

So yes, I agree with you, H20 Man is not just one of DU's finest posters, he puts his body where his words are.

And today we got the news that Fracking in NY is to banned. I was not happy with Cuomo, I am surprised he has taken this stand, as he appeared to be for the Fracking industry.

It was a shock frankly, I thought it would be a long fight to stop fracking here.

H20 Man was active in the fight here to stop Fracking. He deserves a lot of credit for the role he played in helping Cuomo to understand the dangers of that industry to our environment.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #79)

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 07:16 AM

81. Thanks sabrina. You're another of our finest.

 

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 10:55 AM

31. Damn, you can write.

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Response to riqster (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:25 PM

53. Thanks!

My editor/ lady friend often tells me that I need to write shorter essays. But that's not my style; I have a big mouth! So I was wondering if this was too long to be of interest to anyone but me. I'm glad that others enjoyed it. So I sent her the link; she responded with, "Kick-ass article!"

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 11:48 AM

38. Great Post, H2O Man, what happened with the case against that bad cop? Did the judge let him post

 

bail? I missed the update on that story.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #38)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:27 PM

54. No bail.

The creep's attorney stated that they were not seeking bail "at this time," but reserved the right to ask in the future. He was given 45 days; if they make the request, we'll again flood the Court with e-mails and letters.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #54)

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 02:20 AM

75. interesting, do you ya think the atty was tipped him off regarding demands to deny bail?

 

thanks for the report back on this. keep us posted for the next round.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 11:52 AM

40. a most heartfelt k and r

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Response to niyad (Reply #40)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:28 PM

55. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 12:12 PM

41. I am a feeling that in years to come all these people responsible for

torture will be capture and tried. They will be charge with war crimes. While the current climate in the USA is to protect those GOP members responsible, they can be captured when they travel outside the USA. In fact I think they could be captured in the USA and flown to another nation if those other nations have the individuals that can make the arrests.

The world is upset by the actions and mood of the USA to allow this to happen.

Lets see what happens in years to come.

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Response to sammy750 (Reply #41)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:32 PM

57. I sure hope so.

One of my favorite teachings from Martin Luther King, Jr., was that social justice never arrives upon the wheels of inevitability -- it only comes about by the hard work of Good People.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 12:23 PM

42. K&R

Your posts are always thought provoking, H2O Man. One of DU's best and why I've been reading here over 12 years.

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Response to shanti (Reply #42)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:33 PM

58. Thank you!

That means a lot to me.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 02:17 PM

46. You so rock, sir.

Thanks for this.

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Response to byronius (Reply #46)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:34 PM

59. I am glad

to be on the same team with you. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 05:59 PM

48. What Should Be Done?

This treacherous lying piece of treason must be remove from the faculty at Berkley. What was the university thinking and who bought the chair for him? I'm not religious and this proves that there is no God. If she did exist this asshole would be dead and lodged for eternity in the 11th pit of Dante's Hell.

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Response to Beowulf42 (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:06 PM

63. That's both a

good question, and an important point. "What should be done?" can include "what can we do?" And that includes "we" as individuals, members of our own communities, and -- I would hope -- as the DU community.

Among the areas of focus for us to concentrate upon could be his position at Berkley. It seems obscene to me, that he is employed there.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:29 PM

56. Thank you for this...

I have been speaking out about a number of issues here locally - easy ones like Race Relations and Climate Change ... and have been 'put in my place' a few times - this past week especially. I had thought the past few days to to just 'pack it in'...

However, your post has given me something to think about and has reminded me that I do not want them to win. Ever. At any level. I just need to regroup, take a break, and step back into it.

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Response to rosesaylavee (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:11 PM

64. Good!

I certainly want you to stay here. I have long respected you, and recognized the value of your contribution to the DU community.

Likewise, I'm aware of some others here who, no matter what their motivation, I wish would move on along to other places. If they lack the capacity to "move" internally to that higher ground that includes treating others with respect, I'd hope they move on to another web site.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #64)

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 04:33 PM

82. ...

Actually, or unfortunately, I meant here, meaning where I live physically. But, I guess I need to learn to deal with the live trolls living about me in my town/county in addition to the online ones. I was pretty low when I wrote the above but picking up the pieces now and will be moving forward again.

Thanks Pat.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 04:23 AM

61. I'm kicking this, and hoping someday John Yoo gets his butt kicked. Thank you, H2O Man

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Response to Hekate (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:11 PM

65. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:20 AM

62. Torture and war crimes have been around for a long but the advocates of torture in America are unique

The American Government under the Bush Cheney regime advocated torture in public and when they acted on what they promoted as confirmed years later people are shocked or go into full denial. Name one modern nation that stated publicly they had the right to torture? Our Constitutional safeguards failed Congress could have stopped this; impeachment of the monsters who advocated this never happened. On some level the entire nation shares this guilt unless future generations makes certain this will not continue they too will share in the guilt. Maybe trials for American war criminals could be held in Germany and Japan that would come close to justice. It is too bad justice is out of favor in twenty first century America.

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Response to gordianot (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:16 PM

66. Interesting.

It's important to note that a number of types of torture have been practiced in our state prisons, for a long, long time. I don't think that it is a coincidence that the prison reform movement of the 1970s was strongest around the time that the post-Nixon congressional committees' investigated abuses by the intelligence community. The election of Ronald Reagan put the brakes on that.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 12:26 PM

67. K & R

Wondering how I missed this earlier.

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Response to Liberal_Dog (Reply #67)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 11:35 PM

72. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 10:49 PM

71. Yoo is horrible

not YOU ... Yoo

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Response to underpants (Reply #71)

Wed Dec 17, 2014, 11:41 PM

73. I agree!

Yoo is horrible.

And I am bad. Just got off the phone with my editor/ lady friend. She is working on the first "social activism" case that she's ever taken the lead on. And damn! She's good!

As I reached my old age, I knew I would met a young person, who I would invest the time to teach to carry on the Good Fight. It's nature's way. Human nature, in this case. I had long expected my student to be a young man. Life still holds surprises.

I'm hoping that within 4 to 6 weeks, I'll be able to speak openly about this case. It's a good one.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 01:25 AM

74. K&R!!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 02:25 AM

76. Didn't read it.

SAVORED it!

And it was truly YUMMY!!!!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 03:58 AM

80. K&R!

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