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Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 11:36 AM Jan 2015

Let's test when a cartoon is free speech vs hate & blasphemy

The Torah (˜ Christian Old Testament) and the Quran say: death to blasphemers.

PC people (press, some at DU) are squeamish to state that fact when it applies to Islam.


the following cartoon expresses that Torah/Quran doctrine + the PC squeamishness.

My question: is this cartoon free speech and satire, or is it racist blasphemous hate speech?


36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Let's test when a cartoon is free speech vs hate & blasphemy (Original Post) Albertoo Jan 2015 OP
There's no such thing as blasphemy ... Scuba Jan 2015 #1
That's heresy! Renew Deal Jan 2015 #2
No heresy either. Scuba Jan 2015 #10
That's apostasy! MrBig Jan 2015 #31
We want Barabbas! FSogol Jan 2015 #3
Free speech and satire. nt LexVegas Jan 2015 #4
A work can be both free speech and satire as well as racist hate speech. MohRokTah Jan 2015 #5
My opinion is it's free speech, and it wouldn't matter what cartoon it was either dissentient Jan 2015 #6
.... 840high Jan 2015 #7
Holy books are just ink on paper. upaloopa Jan 2015 #8
true. But the pen dipped in that ink commands armies of swords. Or nukes. nt Albertoo Jan 2015 #13
nothing about those categories is mutually exclusive fishwax Jan 2015 #9
You know what I meant Albertoo Jan 2015 #15
I didn't know what you meant, exactly...but i meant what I said fishwax Jan 2015 #27
The media isn't an optometrist. Johonny Jan 2015 #11
There's an actual message there. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #12
We can disagree with what is said, while defending the right to say it. hedgehog Jan 2015 #14
^this^ Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2015 #17
Absolutely. But can you disagree with facts? Albertoo Jan 2015 #18
and I also can choose not to engage in proof-texting. hedgehog Jan 2015 #30
Problem of religion: the supposed deity does such a poor job of "inspiring" writers of scripture... brooklynite Jan 2015 #32
Problem of religion #2: 'God' can't make 'sacred books' without murderous soundbites. nt Albertoo Jan 2015 #33
Which is why they should all be viewed with an equal amount of disdain LordGlenconner Jan 2015 #35
you are throwing out diversions. The cartoon doesn't incite hatred or violence KittyWampus Jan 2015 #16
How does one know if a cartoon will incite hatred or violence? oberliner Jan 2015 #19
No. My subtext was that massacres in the name of religion are not an anomaly Albertoo Jan 2015 #21
So how culpable should believers feel, assuming they didn't support or participate in massacres? nt el_bryanto Jan 2015 #23
Not feel guilt, review their beliefs. nt Albertoo Jan 2015 #24
OK - and if their personal beliefs don't condone violence, but other members of their religion el_bryanto Jan 2015 #26
Appropriate response = educate about the violent lunacy of the texts they think are 'holy'. nt Albertoo Jan 2015 #34
So a Christian or a Muslim who believes himself or herself to be peaceful is kidding themselves? nt el_bryanto Jan 2015 #36
I don't think the concept of free speech inherently or necessarily denies either hate or blaspheme LanternWaste Jan 2015 #20
Please see my comment #15. nt Albertoo Jan 2015 #22
Islam person #1 says behead infidels treestar Jan 2015 #25
The distinction there is that people don't choose their race. el_bryanto Jan 2015 #28
I see that as a grey area treestar Jan 2015 #29
 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
5. A work can be both free speech and satire as well as racist hate speech.
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 11:47 AM
Jan 2015

Blasphemy, however, is a victimless crime.

 

dissentient

(861 posts)
6. My opinion is it's free speech, and it wouldn't matter what cartoon it was either
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 11:49 AM
Jan 2015

It's all free speech, even if its hateful, racist, etc. The first amendment protects it.

Regarding this cartoon, I'd say its mediocre, but that is my opinion.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
8. Holy books are just ink on paper.
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 11:59 AM
Jan 2015

People are the ones who commit acts.
Stop blaming ink on paper and put the blame where it belongs. On people who act out of ignorance and learned bigotry and hatred! Be they of what ever religion they are responsible for their actions not some ancient text.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
15. You know what I meant
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:16 PM
Jan 2015

Clearly, I was trying to draw the line between
• criticism of religions, even if disrespectful of said religion = free speech
• attack on the people followers of such or such faith = hate speech

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
12. There's an actual message there.
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:10 PM
Jan 2015

It's one that many people would disagree with while many also agree with it, but it encapsulates a set of ongoing arguments.

It's not simply an insult. So yeah, this particular cartoon, for instance, could be satire, while a picture depicting a holy figure with dripping genitals is not. And there's nothing 'PC' squeamish about pointing out that the other cartoon was not 'satire'.

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
18. Absolutely. But can you disagree with facts?
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:19 PM
Jan 2015

The 'three religions of the Book' have passages of their texts calling for death to blasphemers.

And it's problematic. See Charlie Hebdo.

That's why I cringe when I hear any religion is a religion of 'peace'.

Their texts are anything but peaceful.

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
30. and I also can choose not to engage in proof-texting.
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:39 PM
Jan 2015

For those who don’t know what proof-texting is – it is finding passages of scripture that supports whatever position you want to uphold. Typically what happens is that an assertion is made, which generates disagreement. The opposer will list a passage of scripture or a string of passages as proof that that assertion is wrong. I have noticed this to be a common occurrence in the blogosphere. But I do believe it happens quite often in face to face conversations.

......

Problem of interpretation: isolating passages by themselves does not address the meaning and how that relates to what is being refuted. Passages must be considered in their rightful context and then correlated to the overall witness of scripture. For example, the issue of Christians and alcohol came up recently, which generated a host of passages that either supported either the acceptance of alcohol or its prohibition. Proof-texting can allow support for both sides but something has obviously gotten lost if that is so. Also, a word doesn’t necessarily mean the same thing everywhere it’s used, which is why context is so important. To interpret properly, the word has to be examined according to how the author is using it. If we throw out a string of passages simply because we think it aligns because it is using the same word or the same concept, it is quite possible that we are comparing apples with oranges.

Problem of communcation: proof-texting does not really promote dialogue. It does not address where the differences are occurring. When passages are identified that seem to conflict with our understanding, there needs to be a dialogue about why the passages listed stand in opposition to whatever position is being refuted and specific points of difference. And dialogue does not mean, ‘let me tell you why you’re wrong’. It goes back to understanding. Moreover, the interpretation and understanding factor ought to compel an examination of how we are communicating particular topics or passages.

Problem of arrogance: by throwing out a series of passages, especially if there is no explanation offered, can exude a confidence in one’s position that does not need explaining. It can communicate the idea that the proof-texter has it all figured out and the position that is being refuted would certainly not be made if the presenter really had an understanding of what the bible is saying regarding the topic. It can paint the proof-texter in light of having a superior knowledge of the topic.

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/09/the-problem-with-proof-texting/

brooklynite

(94,384 posts)
32. Problem of religion: the supposed deity does such a poor job of "inspiring" writers of scripture...
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:54 PM
Jan 2015

...that they can't be clear about what the "correct" interpretation of god's will is.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
19. How does one know if a cartoon will incite hatred or violence?
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:21 PM
Jan 2015

What are the qualities necessary for a cartoon to incite hatred or violence?

 

Albertoo

(2,016 posts)
21. No. My subtext was that massacres in the name of religion are not an anomaly
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:24 PM
Jan 2015

I just can't stand hearing that killings like the Paris one are due to fringe lunatics.

The stereotypical comment is that it's got nothing to do with religion. Baloney.

So I'm not diverting from anything, just reacting to the empty banalities of the Press.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
26. OK - and if their personal beliefs don't condone violence, but other members of their religion
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:33 PM
Jan 2015

do commit violence in the name of religion - what is the appropriate response then?

Bryant

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
20. I don't think the concept of free speech inherently or necessarily denies either hate or blaspheme
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:23 PM
Jan 2015

I don't think the concept of free speech inherently or necessarily denies either hate or blaspheme in its construct. A given statement, or even the cartoon provided could be any one of the three, any two of the three, or any three of the three.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
25. Islam person #1 says behead infidels
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:29 PM
Jan 2015

and even acts on it.

Islam persons #2 - 3,000,000 may not agree with that, see? It is a religion of peace for them.

I don't know why it is hard, since we as liberals already condemn right wingers for calling people-group violent because some other persons of their same race did something violent.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
28. The distinction there is that people don't choose their race.
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:35 PM
Jan 2015

people do choose their religion.

Bryant

treestar

(82,383 posts)
29. I see that as a grey area
Fri Jan 9, 2015, 12:37 PM
Jan 2015

One can "choose" to drop the religion one was raised on, but it's not that easy. Plus it must not be easy in an Islamic state. I don't expect 1.2 billion Muslims to drop the religion because of what these guys did. It's part of their culture.



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