If the most extreme Christian Fundamentalist could set up law as they wish?

[alphafemale]

They would behave EXACTLY like Islamic extremists.

You damn well know they would.

The ONLY thing holding them back is that we have a separation of church and state.

We are ruled by the rule of governed law.

Not by the rule of any g-d.

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. I'd be put out to pasture for becoming nonreproductive well before the expected age...

...or possibly imprisoned for three miscarriages.

[alphafemale]

4. Yeah there was that "Prove it was really as miscarriage"

They've floated that more than once.

I am sorry that you loved and adored and then lost those people you never got to know.

[Fumesucker]

2. Heh...

This is an interesting thread from that point of view, the only ones who seem to give a shit are the atheists.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218176249

[F4lconF16]

46. Yuuup.

That was a fun one. Really sums it up well. Hypocrisy, thy name is (obligatory *some*) christians.

[Nye Bevan]

3. Most Christian countries do not have a consitutionally mandated separation of church and state.

Last edited Fri Jan 9, 2015, 10:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Take Ireland, for example. A deeply Catholic country, with no "separation of church and state". Yes, the abortion laws there suck, but they are not "behaving EXACTLY like Islamic extremists". As far as I know, people don't get stoned to death there for being gay, for example.

[cwydro]

5. And in Ireland, women are not second class citizens.

Gay folks are embraced and loved for the most part.

I have both relatives and friends in Ireland, and I visit frequently.

[alphafemale]

10. gotcha.

I don't need to see the sarcasm tag to see it.

[cwydro]

12. Um no.

That was not sarcastic.

I have many gay friends there.

Much less closeted than here.

And women? I'd love to see someone treat an Irish woman poorly and live to tell about it.

What part did you think was sarcasm?

[alphafemale]

16. If a woman was raped and needed an abortion?

Raped by her father and the child would never survive and she had cancer.

Tough luck.

That fetus is way more important.,,than you.

It might be male.

[cwydro]

21. Their abortion laws are archaic.

But that hardly makes Ireland comparable to a Muslim country where women are covered head to toe, where they must ride in the back seat of a car, where they cannot be seen by other men, where they can be murdered for any stupid transgression.

I cannot give respect to a religion that subjugates women. One that considers being gay punishable by death.

I agree with you that fundamentalists of any stripe are horrid.

But the countries that subjugate women are almost entirely Muslim.

The West shunned South Africa for years (rightly) because of apartheid.

But the West ignores the plight of women and girls, kidnapped, shot, genitally mutilated, stoned, gah, I could go on, but I can't think about it anymore.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'll be in Ireland again soon. You could not PAY me to visit a country that treats women as less than camels.

[Warpy]

35. Yeah, and they still saw a woman's pelvic bones apart rather than do Caesarian sections

because the latter might limit the number of future children she could pop out. It's a procedure that has been labeled savage in the rest of the world. The church approves, of course. She might have all boys, you know.

If you want to find out what Christian theocracy really means, ask any Irish woman over 75 who survived the Magdalene Laundries. You think the Protestants are going to be any better? Really?

You're kidding yourself. Likely they will be even worse.

[ReRe]

45. That's a new one on me, Warpy

... is that in Muslim countries or in Ireland where they saw women's pelvic bone apart rather than performing a Caesarian? That is effing barbarian.

[Warpy]

70. Ireland.

I think they might have gotten that one stopped, but it's only been within the last couple of years.

An article about it was in medical literature a couple of months ago.

Ireland has been a horror for women for a very long time. They're only now beginning to break free with divorce and contraception, the priests' death grip loosened by the pedophile scandal.

[ReRe]

82. I can only imagine...

... what my Irish grandmothers/female cousins suffered through. How I'm alive, I'll never know.

[alphafemale]

17. You still know closeted friends in the US? Are they in a church? Or middle school hell?

You're funny.

[cwydro]

23. If you don't think there are not closeted gay folks here in the US,

then you are living in a fantasy land.

I don't get it. I came out in 1975 (before it was cool), and urged everyone I knew to do it.

I got a lot of blowback. No regrets.

But yes, there are gay folks in the closet.

Pro tennis, soccer, NFL, baseball...just to begin...but also folks who are RIGHTLY afraid of being fired because it is still legal to do that in MANY states.

[alphafemale]

49. Didn't mean to be glib about it.

I went to HS with out folk since about 78. They were some of the most popular people there.

Yeah. You are right.

There is much acceptance and welcoming now (don't ever say tolerance, hate that.)

But we gotta work on those pockets.

I think middle school will always be hell no matter what, though.

That first injection of hormones is quite a game change.

I think I cried myself to sleep many nights. I also think crawling through those awful rocks and thorns and emotions is part of what makes us human.

[cwydro]

53. Agreed.

For some reason, I was happy when I finally figured it out.

I was out of high school before it came to me (kind of slow on the uptake lol)

I was so thrilled I wanted to tell everyone. Since I was in the Air Force at the time, that didn't work out so well.

Cannot believe that you can be openly gay in the military now. Though even in those days, EVERYONE knew who was.

[alphafemale]

68. Why wouldn't you be happy?

You finally figured out the where you liked to put your stuff.

I'm sorry was that too blunt?

I am not really good at self censoring sometimes.

[cwydro]

69. Well, I'm female lol

So I have no stuff to put - so to speak.

Not offensive. I'm giggling.

[F4lconF16]

47. I can think of at least 3 off the top of my head.

One is a mormon, the others are just worried about jobs and family issues. I'm sure I know more that I don't know about.

What a post.

[PeaceNikki]

20. A recent UN report says Irish women are being denied human rights

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/irish-women-are-being-denied-human-rights-says-un-report-1.1877329

Who needs human rights as long at they're "nice" to us, huh?

Plus there was that whole enslavement thing in which more than 10,000 women were imprisoned in Catholic run laundries for 70+ years until 1996.

[cwydro]

25. I can only speak for the people I know there ok?

And my experiences there.

I travel to Ireland quite often, and have since I was a child.

My great aunt lives there...in her late 70's - free as a bird and quite unenslaved last time I checked.

I know many many other Irish women (and girls) from age 3 to age 40 +. Some are wives and mothers, some are gay. One is a black belt karate champion who competes all over Europe at the age of 19. Are we talking about the same country????

They seem to have all their rights.

Goodness gracious though, don't let this get in the way of your view of Ireland as some sort of horrid place.

[PeaceNikki]

29. I don't think it's a horrid place. You brought them into the conversation.

The discussion is about religion in society and government. You said that women are not second class citizens there. I contend religion is still a major reason why they are not to be lauded as an example of Christianity and government being A-ok is all.

[cwydro]

32. No, actually another poster did.

I just chimed in.

I totally will agree with you about religion.

Religion has caused nothing but strife in this world.

Catholicism is another religion that would like to subjugate women. They're losing though. And they don't genitally mutilate them, nor do they stone them. (They might want to - but they don't)

Several of my friends in Ireland identify as Pagans. Hilariously, they had their children christened in the church anyway. I was there at one of the christenings and ribbed them all mercilessly.

Being Irish, they laughed too. It's a running joke between us all.

I wish we could all learn from them. Life is to be enjoyed. Friends are fun, and there is nothing wrong with a good argument as long as we all buy a round during the discussion.

[PeaceNikki]

34. I am 100% certain that it's a beautiful place full of wonderful people

from whom we could learn a lot. Many places still need work when is comes to the rights of women and LGBT, the US obviously included.

I know a large number of Brits - and they are all atheists.

Here, here... this round's on me

[cwydro]

37. My parents are English.

Came here in the 50's so I'm first generation with a dual nationality.

My dad was an atheist...as is my mom.

They took us to the Unitarian church as children, where we learned evolution WAY before we learned it in our southern school.

I'm pretty much agnostic I guess. I always believe in a god/goddess on an airplane lol.

Otherwise, I just believe in the spirits that live in the trees and the animals and in nature. Pagan? Animistic? Who knows. I feel at peace in nature.

Next round on me.

Now, I'm taking my tired butt to bed.

Hey, thanks to you and Alphafemale for the discussion.

[alphafemale]

7. Have you ever been to Mississippi? nt

[NaturalHigh]

9. I have. What does that have to do with Ireland?

[alphafemale]

15. Mississippi horrified the ever loving fuck out of me.

And I have lived in the south....granted just GA and SC mostly coastal....which isn't REALLY the SOUTH south.

People just seemed hostile to difference in MS.

[Nye Bevan]

18. It was really that horrifying?

=======================================================================================

[cwydro]

28. Have you been to Ireland???

I highly recommend it.

You will come back smiling like the Irish eyes of song fame.

[drmeow]

19. I can't remember

if it was a study or just a hypothesis - but I remember reading a paper which suggested that, ironically, the separation of church and state contributed to the extreme fundamentalism of American Christians. In states where there is a state religion, the very religious do not see the government as a threat to their religion and have no call or grounds to feel persecuted so they are less likely to get rabid about the laws. But when you have a proscribed separation, the very religious see the government as a direct threat to their religion, convince themselves they are persecuted, and get rabid. I could very much see the current American extremists, in the paranoid delusion fostered by the manipulative right wing politicians which fell on fertile ground due to the existing perceived threat, behaving much like Islamic extremists if they were every able to truly and completely take over this country. I would see:

mandatory religious education
mandatory church attendance at least until 18
re-criminalization of all sorts of "non-Christian" behavior
religion listed on identification
destruction of other religions places of worship (and eventually other sects)
relegation of non-Christians to second class citizens

Oh - and a massive, bloody, lengthy civil war which I doubt this country would survive!

[Nye Bevan]

22. In the UK, 2 out of the 3 major party leaders are atheists, and nobody gives a shit.

It simply is not an issue. Also, there is essentially no religious input into abortion laws there. And of course there is an official state religion, so absolutely no separation of church and state.

I am not sure what the message is, but I do find this interesting.

[cwydro]

27. I give up Nye.

It's my Friday, but good luck to you on this one. They won't listen.

Next time I'm in Ireland, I'll remember my chador.

[drmeow]

31. That's part of my point

The Brits don't care because they have an official state religion so the religious fanatics perceive that they have power that others don't. As a result, they aren't threatened by non-religious politicians and don't feel that they need to impose their religion through the laws. But in the US, because they don't have that power (of a state religion), non-religious politicians and laws which go against their religion freak them out because those things highlight that lack of power (at least, that's what the theory/study says). Our separation of church and state when combined with the manipulation of the religious arm of the right wing over the past 30 years (something which wouldn't work as well if there was a state religion) has fostered a degree of political fundamentalism which would be harder to achieve in a place with an official religion - when there is a state religion people of that religion feel secure and people who are not of that religion know they can't change it. it is a bit like the swinging of a pendulum - if it doesn't go very far off center in one direction, it won't go very far the other direction. But if you pull it back to the extreme, it is going to hit the extreme on the other side, too. That's why I think if you put the extreme religious in control here they would take this country much further down the road of religious control than you see in places like Ireland or England - or, at least, they would try.

[cwydro]

38. As my father would have said (English),

"What utter rot."

[drmeow]

85. My response to your father would have been

Whatever

[cwydro]

86. lol

He became fond of that response himself before he died.

[madokie]

6. You know it

[alphafemale]

8. Handmaid's Tale within weeks if they ever got their way. nt

[madokie]

13. No doubt

Not much worries me but religion of any kind is at the top of what list I do have

[brooklynite]

11. But I have it on good authority that Moses wrote the Constitution...

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/10/all-patriots-know-that-moses-wrote-the-constitution/65353/

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. Good grief

[alphafemale]

30. I am just saying that if the most extreme right wing Christians breached the seperation

And gained control.

There would be little difference between that and extremist Islam.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

40. Really?

You think the folks who long for the days of Ozzie and Harriet are no different than folks who would have you living under sharia law?

I don't want to go back, either, but it's ok to have a little perspective.

[alphafemale]

42. They would drag us back to that by force.

Yes they would.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

52. Actually I replied to the wrong poster. I was agreeing with Nye. I think the OP is

febrile fear mongering with an unhealthy dose of trying to stir up animosity.

[ileus]

57. And wants to equate Christians with terrorist...

There's nothing stopping Christians from being the terrorist they deep down sincerely desire to be now.

Oh wait....they're not because they're not even a miniscule percentage of Christians.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

58. This sort of fear-mongering relies on the exact same mechanisms of bigotry it claims to reject.

Moreover, the Bible has been around for centuries in its current form but we're supposed to reject it. Why? Because we're not supposed to believe in fairy tales that do nothing but frighten people with threats of damnation.

But let's take a two-bit sci-fi story and elevate it to the level of prophecy to justify screeds against entire groups.

All without the slightest hint of self-awareness or irony.

[OKNancy]

24. But they can't and they won't. Western culture wouldn't tolerate it

It's a matter of culture more than religion in my opinion.

[Duppers]

39. agreed

And American culture has changed over the centuries, re: Salem witchcraft trials.

[Dreamer Tatum]

26. So you're saying that they respect law because there is law.

The only thing holding back Christian fundamentalists from pulling off shit like Paris is the LAW?

Wouldn't that make them, oh, LAW ABIDING?

Face it: it gives you agita that Islamists do this shit regularly and Christians don't follow suit. That's all that's going on here.

[cwydro]

33. Oh my.

Thank you.

Do people still say "Snap?"

[Nuclear Unicorn]

44. Post rec

[Fumesucker]

48. Recognize these faces?

Two Christians who have killed for that ideology, I and my family were present at the site of one of the killings only 24 hours before the deadly bomb blast.

[alphafemale]

61. The laws they would impose would be just as restrictive of women and "the unclean"

The laws they would impose against all that were not male and straight would be harsh as hell.

[Dreamer Tatum]

71. So you're saying that if they COULD change the laws

they'd behave like radical Islamists do RIGHT NOW, despite laws.

But they don't (with a comparatively rare exceptions), because of the law.

I wonder if you see the hollowness of your argument.

[alphafemale]

72. I am saying.

That if the most extreme right wing Christians had the opportunity to form their OWN laws.

A Theocracy

Rather than being forced to live in a Constitutional Republic.

Where they have to follow those laws.

It would be mighty grim for women and many other people.

[Dreamer Tatum]

73. And I'm saying that in the meanwhile, with the usual caveat to appease the moral accountants,

they seem to be doing pretty well within the law.

[alphafemale]

75. You missed my point entirely.

They are too craven to be suicide bombers...with few exceptions like Eric Randolph and the freak that actually shot the doctor in a church.

I said if they had the power to make the laws....

[Dreamer Tatum]

76. No, it's that I think your point is vacuous. nt

[alphafemale]

77. You think if the extreme right wing religious nuts

Got to make the law.

They would be just?

[Dreamer Tatum]

78. No, I don't.

So what? What does that matter?

Are you behind the front lines in the Second Civil War? Do you need a supply drop? Did 12 people get murdered in your office by Christian zealots for ridicule?

I have heard this argument before: if X got to make the laws, things would be worse. Well, they're not. And while they're not making the laws, they're comparatively docile about the ones they don't like.

Where is the beef in your argument?

[Flatulo]

36. There's much more at work in Islamic extremism than just religion.

The culture of most Middle Eastern countries is extremely patriarchal and authoritarian. Also, marrying one's cousin is common, and even one's niece, making genetic diversity less than healthy.

I'm not sure what your point is, other than religion, taken to the extreme and then mixed with the State, is a bad thing.

I'm sure glad we don't have that here.

[nomorenomore08]

41. I think of folks like Gary North or the late, unlamented John Lofton, and I can't say you're wrong.

But of course, it's not "only" the law holding them back - it's a host of social and economic factors. None of which are necessarily permanent or guaranteed, mind you.

[cherokeeprogressive]

43. Yeah; genital mutilation of women is high up on the list of things Christian fundies pine over.

Fuck me to tears.

EXACTLY and ONLY are words that should be off-limits to some people.

[Skidmore]

50. The fundamentalists have been chipping away at

that wall for some time now. It needs to be shored up. Sone of the pols essentially admit that theocracy is their goal. This is not the time to be respectful of this mindset.

[randr]

51. The separation of church and state is the elephant in the room

Whenever a discussion of the responsibility Muslim states have to rein in their terrorist elements takes place, such as on Bill Mahres show, it is the lack of this separation that is never brought up. The hold religion has over state/governing functions is the problem.

[ileus]

54. Of course Christians want to coordinate suicide bombings and terrorist attacks.

No wait.....they're not and they don't.

There's nothing stopping them from doing the same thing any terrorist group does, it's not like terrorist attacks are legal ANYWHERE.


Simply put there aren't millions of Christians willing to die for their god.

[alphafemale]

56. They wouldn't have to.

My statement was that if the extreme right wing imposed the religio lead state they want they would be just as ruthless against those they hate.

[Bluenorthwest]

59. But your comparison is incomplete without contrast, and it is there that your form of argument might

become difficult. You say Christian right wing is comparable to Muslim right wing, and I agree. I have even posted about a terror attack in Paris against a movie done by right wing Christians offended at the portrayal of their object of worship. Very comparable.
But you keep saying 'if the right wing imposed the religio state' without addressing how they might do that here, why they have not, and why in some other countries they do in fact have religion lead states. If our extremists and theirs are very similar, but only one allows extremists to lead, this brings up many questions.
It seems to me that somehow, many countries that have extreme right wing religionists do not let them run the government and yet some others do. If the religionists are similar in both groups, then the thing preventing them from being in charge must lie in the larger culture.
If my neighbor would stone gay people but does not, and my friend's neighbor would stone gay people and does, what does this say about the two neighborhoods, if the bigoted neighbors are exactly the same?
To compare, one must also contrast. And when discussing theocracies that might be if bad people were allowed, we have to discuss theocracies that actually exist and discuss how and why that is allowed.
Or not. Depending on your agenda.

[goldent]

55. This is a beaut

Especially like how you write EXACTLY and ONLY in caps - just to make sure everyone knows how extreme the statements are. Just a hint - I don't think the Onion uses that style.

[alphafemale]

65. Ooooh a Grammar Cop! Cool! nt

[goldent]

67. Funny you would see it that way.

Seriously, it was funny.

[LadyHawkAZ]

60. Indeed they would

Interesting that this gets said every time the wingnut dominionists introduce yet another law to regulate women's reproductive organs with near universal agreement from DU, but now here's this thread with a huge rush of #notallchristians and walk-back.

[alphafemale]

63. I am slowly shaking my head

My point was that if the most extreme Christians the likes of Pat Robertson and James Dobson were able to implement their dream of a US theocracy. It would be just as extreme of any other fundamentalist based bation.

[libtodeath]

62. If the most extreme anything could set up law as they wish

it probably would not be a nice place to live.

This place is getting weird.

[Throd]

64. What's stopping them from doing the crazy, violent shit jihadis do?

[smirkymonkey]

66. Yes, but they haven't.

When was the last time a Christian extremist murdered a number of innocent civilians in the name of their god?

[Dreamer Tatum]

74. It happens. Just not nearly as often or as intensely, despite what many would have you believe. nt

[Ink Man]

79. Sorry, but

I think your paranoid.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

80. Essentially true, but utterly misleading to the point of being dishonest.

The important comparison is not "the most extreme" vs "the most extreme", it's by centiles.

There are far *more* Muslims far *more* conservative than is true for Christians.

The thing holding back the most extreme right-wing Christians, or even moderately extreme right-wing Christians, is being a tiny minority. By contrast, there are far more right-wing and far fewer left-wing Muslims, which is why there is such a strong correlation between "countries with awful far-right governments and laws and appalling human rights records" and "Muslim-majority countries".

[alphafemale]

83. I don't know that that is true at all

I think most people in Muslim countries obey those laws in public because they are compelled to do so at fear of severe punishment or death.

There are jeans and modern dress under those drapes.

[rstanleyj2918ca]

81. Exactly. Both Christian and Muslim fundies are nutjobs, and should be kept well away from the public

I'd leave America if the RW fundie nuts took over the government. They'd gladly take this country back to the 19th century.

[ToxMarz]

84. So that's the attraction of the Wall Street corporate inversions to Ireland

It's not JUST the tax rate, they really like the social climate there.