General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDo men understand rape?
As with the Bill Cosby scandal and many others involving sexual assaults I often see a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking on what the victim should have done during and immediately after the rape. Their criticism seems so casual and flippant it's hard to believe they have considered how traumatic sexual assault can be.
I would ask you to consider the following scenario:
You attend a holiday office party and have one drink too many. When I say one too many I really mean one. You get pulled over on your way home and you barely fail a sobriety test. You are not stumbling, black out, drunk. You are just past the limit. You are arrested and taken to jail. Due to circumstances beyond your control you are held over night and get raped in a holding cell.
What would YOU do? Immediately report the rape to the police, your current jailers? What do you think their reaction is going to be when you tell them you've just been raped and demand to be moved to a more comfortable cell? You get released the next morning. What's your first order of business? Check into a hospital and get a rape kit? Go back to the police station and report your rape? Start telling all your friends, family, and business associates you've been arrested for drunk driving and got raped in jail last night? Hire a lawyer to sue the police?
Think about it. Would you want your name and picture in the paper as the drunk driving guy suing the police because in the middle of criminal activity you got caught, jailed, and raped? You know there would be those who would claim you got what you deserved because you were drunk driving in the first place. Just like the rape victim in a short skirt.
How many times would you like to describe the intimate details of your rape over and over to perfect strangers like hospital staff, police officers, your lawyers, lawyers representing the police, court officials, etc. How would you like everybody on your job and in your neighborhood to know you are a dui driver who has drunken, gay sex, in jail?
And if by a long shot you could get through all that, do you really want to describe your rape in open court? All the orifices penetrated and for how long? All the foreign objects used. All the laughing and cat calling of the other inmates?
Would you really go through all that or just thank your lucky stars you weren't killed and try to forget about it as soon as possible?
Please men think twice about going down your laundry list of what rape victims are supposed do and how they are supposed act if they want other to believe they have been raped because if you told me you were raped in jail I wouldn't ask you what you were wearing or insinuate you were asking for it or lying for attention.
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hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I just wanted to forget it but I never forgot it. I live with the emotional pain and distrust till this day.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)As a person of color I understand White guilt over racism because as a man I feel guilty when when I hear of men sexually assaulting women, men, children, etc. For the life of me I cannot understand how anyone can violate another human being like that.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)I feel guilty for a week if I'm in a rush and don't hold the door for someone. Consciously and seriously hurting someone I just can't imagine.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)never know the terror and horror of it. Racism, rape, child birth. They talk about it but they will never know it until it happens to them and for most of the horrors of this world, they will never experience it. But they talk about it with authority which makes me want to pick up a fucking chair.
When I was about eleven or twelve the grandfather of a friend of mine decided that he wanted to molest me. I had no clue and neither did my family. he chased me around whenever he saw me because he had had strokes and his personality warped. I know if he had been lucid he would have hanged himself.
He actually came to my house when he thought I was alone. My old grandpa was there, why I don't know because he wasn't earlier when I came home. He knew this man from other times. Grandpa came into the kitchen and told me to go out the back door and go to where mama worked. i was washing dishes and didn't know what he was talking about. I did and was spared. My grandpa sat on the front porch talking to him about the old days and finally the old man left. He never chased anyone again because my family told his. My grandpa was my guardian angel and I will love him forever.
No man will ever understand the horror of that childhood memory that I have never told anyone including my family until I am sitting here telling you. My grandpa got it. He was my hero. Charles Augustus Paxton saved my life and kept it on the good path. It could have been so different had he not known and acted.
I am used to good men in my life. Bad men mystify me. I don't know why anyone would speak with 'authority' over something that they will probably never know. I know men get raped but its not like the epidemic that afflicts women.
I wish it was different but this is what it is.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Aware of the situation, so he served as your protector.
I had a relative who was actually a childhood hero of mine, until the day he "acted funny." When I reached the age of eleven, he suggested he and I go to a hotel. I had no idea of the fact that people had sex at hotels, so I agreed, knowing the hotel he suggested had the best hamburgers and cherry cokes in the area.
Luckily for me, I reacted strongly to his stroking my knee on the drive there, and at a stop sign, I jumped out of the car and made it back to where my parents were staying.
But I didn't tell my parents about this for seven years. It seems ridiculous to me now, but I kept quiet because he had said that no one would believe me, and he also said that he would hurt my younger sister, so I kept quiet..
What made me finally spill the beans on this relative was the summer I found out he was planning on staying with my family. Since my sister was around 12 then, I finally told my mom. She was horrified, but it turned out this pervert had also made passes at her many times over the years, and of course she believed me.
But there is so much shame about something like this. A person does feel they did something that "made" the other person act badly. Being only a kid doesn't help much either.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)except I would have believed you. By what little I know of you from here you sound like a trusting and kind person, that was not taken from you.
tblue
(16,350 posts)
Sending you healing vibes.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)because it's too horrific and humiliating to even countenance getting raped raped in the first place (I believe that scenario usually involves another guy).
Behind the Aegis
(53,938 posts)I thought about it for years again after my youngest brother was raped. Men DO think about rape. Men can also be raped by women!
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Lack of empathy, I'm afraid.
Behind the Aegis
(53,938 posts)How did you reach such a conclusion?!
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)That comment was not directed toward you, I apologize if the point didn't come across well.
Behind the Aegis
(53,938 posts)I apparently misunderstood. I got it now. Thanks for the clarification!
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Remember that thread? I will NEVER forget that thread, nor who was involved. 
Behind the Aegis
(53,938 posts)It added fuel to the fire in my other post. I even referenced it.
KentuckyWoman
(6,679 posts)
MrScorpio
(73,630 posts)Males don't. Please don't think the two are the same.
Xipe Totec
(43,889 posts)Rape cannot be understood. It is beyond the grasp of reason.
politicman
(710 posts)its not that we don't understand rape, its that we find it too easy for any woman to accuse a man of rape years later and ruin his reputation instantly.
We see with our own eyes how women can easily and many times do go to go to court and get a restraining order for something small, and we find it hard to believe that a women who has been raped (something huge) won't go to the police or some authority and report the rape.
Many women do get raped, we acknowledge that and accept it completely, but for me at least, I won't just believe a women automatically if she says she was raped, whether she does it the same day or 30 years later.
I wont believe automatically because even though it has never and probably will never happen to me, I view rape as one of the worst crimes imaginable, and as such cannot understand how any women can stay silent about a crime as big as that one that will affect them for the rest of their lives.
I will be attacked for this, but I firmly believe that any woman can accuse someone of rape simply to get back at them for something.
I'm not saying that it happens frequently, or that it happens at all, but the fact that it can possibly happen that way makes me wonder whether everytime there is an allegation, that maybe it could be real or it could be a ex-lover getting revenge.
Also, it could possibly be a woman that did something with someone in the spur of the moment when she was feeling good and the next morning regrets it and so to make herself feel better she convinces herself that she didn't want it to happen and accuses rape.
AGAIN, I am not accusing anyone or suggesting anyone does this, just the mere fact that it has the possibility of happening is enough to give me pause and wonder whether to believe a certain accusation or not.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)Reread the OP and think about it. How willing are you to go public, especially when you know full well that a lot of people -- especially a lot of men -- won't believe you, will assume you were "asking for it", will have your entire sexual history brought up to "prove" you really couldn't have been raped because of all the times you engaged in consensual sex.
The notion that most accusations of rape are women trying to get back at some men is insulting. Yes, there are women who falsely accuse. But there are far more times men get away with non-consensual sex (otherwise known as rape) than the tiniest fraction of the false accusation.
I think if you were ever raped you'd understand better.
politicman
(710 posts)Again, let me reiterate that I firmly believe that many women are raped and think staying silent about it is the best course of action.
But I cannot accept that as an excuse, I'm sorry but acknowledging that rape is a despicable thing only make me believe that any women that decides not to report a rape only has herself to blame.
Take for example Bill Cosby allegations, apparently none of the women had the courage to report the rapes for nearly 30 years, yet suddenly out of nowhere, 30 years later one gets the courage that she lacked for 30 years and suddenly many more women get the courage as well.
What change between the time they allege the rapes happened to now, 10680 days or so passed where the women apparently didn't have the courage to report or speak, yet suddenly on the 10681 day one wakes up with more courage than any day in the past to speak out.
Look I am of the opinion that rape is a despicable act, a horrendous act that should never occur, but I am also of the opinion that being accused of a rape that you did not commit is also a despicable act.
And unless all allegations are tested in court with trials, then I am of the opinion that every many is innocent until proven guilty even if there are plenty of women that stay silent after being raped by some of those men.
Women need to take responsibility, if you were really raped then report it even if it comes with a hell of a lot of problems because no one can help you if you wont help yourself.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)what it takes to report it. It's bad enough in the first place, but if the perpetrator is someone well-known and "beloved", such as Bill Cosby, it's infinitely more difficult. Yes, I agree that a false accusation is despicable, but just because those occur is no reason to start with the assumption that any accusation is probably false.
To say that women need to take responsibility and report rapes is easy, but the reality is that they mostly need to report to male cops, who are very likely to assume they're lying, and a court system that puts them on trial. When a woman's entire sexual past is considered fair game, why should any woman who wasn't a virgin in the first place, even bother?
And then there are the lawmakers who apparently believe that pregnancy can never possibly occur from rape. Or that the only reason for an abortion is if you've been raped and you'd better have reported it as soon as it happened.
Recently, in my city (Santa Fe), there was an article in the local newspaper about a man who'd been picked up on rape charges, and in the text of the article information about an old rape was reported, including the name of the woman who'd been a minor at the time. I happen to know someone who is related to that woman, and my friend was spitting nails at the printing of the victim's name. She was being forced to relive a very traumatic incident from some years ago.
Rape is not something most women get over easily.
politicman
(710 posts)And I am fully supportive of the fact that in a trial everything is considered fair game.
Considering that a man who is convicted of rape can spend a hell of a lot of time in gaol, I think it is a good idea to make the process of getting a conviction as hard as possible.
Again, what would you prefer, a justice system where a woman alleges rape and is automatically believed by the cops and court and the guy goes straight to jail, or a justice system where everyone accused gets the presumption of innocence and evidence and testimony are required to get a conviction?
Because I myself subscribe to the 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'better to let 100 guilty people go free than to let one innocent person go to jail'.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)But the almost automatic assumption that a claim of rape is false is offensive. And wrong. I just want to reiterate the point that far more women don't go to the authorities about a rape, than those who falsely claim one
And there really are gray areas. situations that involve a "he said, she said", or other ambiguities. I know. The two times I found myself in such circumstances, I did not report anything. Both times there were the kinds of ambiguities that would have made a claim of rape impossible to prove. But the sex was not consensual, trust me on that. So I know that the circumstances that lead to a charge of rape are far less ambiguous than my particular circumstances. And so I understand all too well that the actual claims of rape are far less than the actual rapes out there.
Here's what I want to say. Rape is a terrible, awful crime. But aside from the circumstances that all of us would agree constitute rape, are very many situations in which the sex is less than fully consensual. And I'm guessing that the latter circumstances involve all of those situations that make the men here so anxious, the less than obvious rape conditions.
I do acknowledge that there is a very gray area here. Yes, there are times when a woman consents and then changes her mind afterwards. That's not very nice, to put it mildly. If you really do consent, then changing your mid afterwards isn't very nice, to put it mildly. But I do think those situations, while real, are a very tiny minority of rape claims.
And please believe me, that women can take a very long time to go public with these things. I am, in this post, alluding to things that happened to me more than forty years ago, that I've never spoken to anyone about, and I don't think that's as uncommon as you men want to believe.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)As a male, in college, I was dating a girl. I had a party at my apartment, got extremely drunk and ended up having sex with a woman I knew for a couple days. Obviously, among 19 year olds, I had cheated, was an asshole and we broke up. But, under the definition of rape, I was clearly raped as I was in no position to give consent and would never had consented if sober.
I have raised that situation here before (if both parties are drunk) and been called a rape apologist, sexist and been told it could only be the woman who was raped (if both were drunk and gave consent). I have been told the occurrence of this situation is so small, it is no comparison. Well, the fact is that it has happened to 100% of people currently typing this post.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)
ProfessorGAC
(64,971 posts)I'm a little stunned by those posts. I guess you were too.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)What about children sexually abused in the church, scouts, and little league?
"if you were really raped then report it even if it comes with a hell of a lot of problems because no one can help you if you wont help yourself."
Seems a bit cold. It really does.
politicman
(710 posts)It may seem cold, but its harsh reality, how is anyone supposed to help women who are raped if the women themselves wont speak up and report the rape when it happens.
And even though it sounds harsher, I am content with the issues women end up facing when accusing someone of rape, because I subscribe to the notion of our justice system, that it is better for 100 guilty people to go free than one innocent person to be found guilty.
If all we needed for an allegation to be believed was the word of the person alleging such a thing, then we would not have a justice system but a kangaroo court.
So if women want guys like me to understand how bad rape is and how much it occurs, then women themselves need to be the ones that speak up first and deal with all the issues that come with speaking up, because as I said earlier, one cant be helped if they wont start helping themselves.
And yes, I hold prison rape to the same standards.
The only ones I don't hold to the same standards are children that are abused, because children are children and don't have the mental capacity of an adult to know that they cant be helped if they don't speak up.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)we are fortunate enough never to have to experience it, but we shouldn't judge something we don't really know about and haven't experienced.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Surviving Suvival is a great book that goes into life after a traumatic event which is often more difficult for a lot people than the actual event itself. It is also one of the best books in general that explains how the brain works.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)psychologist for trauma he experienced as a child.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)As I said, I got extremely drunk in college and had sex with a woman. I had no ability whatsoever to give consent and never would have if sober. But I have had many posters on DU tell me that I was a rape apologist and couldn't have been raped (it appears because I was the male). When it happened to me, society had conditioned me that, as a male, it was my fault and if I shouldn't report anything because, if she was also drunk, it was in fact I who was the rapist.
politicman
(710 posts)I agree we shouldn't judge those that are raped but don't report it, but by the same token we shouldn't judge anyone that is accused of rape simply because a woman accuses them.
When a man (or woman) is found guilty in a court of law for raping someone, then and only then will I accept a rape has happened, and that's not to say that woman are not raped everyday without men being found guilty, its saying that I wont tar anyone with the brush of a rapist UNLESS they were found guilty in a court of law.
So if women want more men to be punished for raping them, then women have to be the ones that speak out first and report their rape, even if it comes with many issues they will need to deal with.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)that speak out first and report their rape, even if it comes with many issues they will need to deal with." You just don't get it. Some of them CAN'T report it because of the trauma they have experienced. I agree that when someone is accused of a crime they are innocent in the eyes of the court of law until found guilty. However, the statistics for false rapes is around 2-8%. That is probably why on a public forum like this you will find that public opinion usually sides with the alleged victim.
politicman
(710 posts)Ok the statistics for false rapes are 2-8%, I accept that.
Now if you would be so kind as to give me the statistics for rapes that are never reported?
(oh keep in mind, that a woman saying she was raped isn't a fact, its just a woman saying she was raped, a fact occurs when a trial happens and a conviction is handed down)
Look, I am not saying that women don't get raped and decide to not report it, what I am saying is that I will not label any one at any time of being a rapist UNLESSS a court of law finds them as such after testing the evidence.
Keeping in mind that people still get found guilty for stuff they didn't do.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)That's my nice version. I would get my first hide ever if I called you what I really think of you.
politicman
(710 posts)Why because I wont believe any woman that alleges a guy raped her without first seeing the evidence tested in court?
Do you really have a problem that I subscribe to the theory that everyone is innocent until proven guilty? That I wont automatically take the word of a woman that alleges rape or frankly of anyone that alleges or says anything.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Cannot believe the posts thus far--right to my IL he goes.
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)in this thread. Uff da!
whopis01
(3,504 posts)But you should be 92 - 98% confident that any woman who claims to have been raped was actually raped.
I get the point that out of every 100 men accused of rape there are 2 - 8 of them that are innocent.
However, to believe that a man accused of rape is innocent requires one to believe that the accuser is a liar and guilty of false accusation.
So, if we wish to protect the innocent 2-8% of men accused of rape by not assuming they are rapists, should we not also want to protect the innocent 92-98% of women accusing a man of rape by not assuming that they are liars?
It seems to me that the only way to do that is to say, in every case of accused rape, that this needs to be fully investigated. Not to say things like "any woman can accuse a man of rape for revenge" or "some women have consensual sex, regret it the next day and accuse the man of rape to feel better about it" or "he is a rapist" or anything else of that sort. But rather to just say "this is a serious accusation and we need to bring all the available criminal justice resources we have to investigate and prosecute as needed."
(btw - a fact does not "occur" because of a trial and conviction being handed down. A fact is a fact from day one. Obviously anyone with even the feeblest critical thinking skills would realize that someone merely stating or claiming something does not make it a fact. Trials determine a groups belief in what is and is not fact. However a conviction (or lack of conviction) is not what makes someone guilty (or innocent) of a crime.)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)fbi, scotland yard.
the 8% covers unfounded and that is not false claim. just saying. i know what you are arguing. but today in our police force, unfounded only means they do not want to look into the accusation.
whopis01
(3,504 posts)I was using the statistics that politicman provided just to point out the ridiculousness of what he was saying even assuming his numbers were accurate.
It is probably a useless argument with him as his theme seems to be "a man can't possibly be a rapist unless a court finds him guilty of rape and even then courts sometimes convict people of things they didn't do" combined with "well, if there is any possibility that a woman could lie about being raped, I just don't see how we can ever believe any woman that claims rape".
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)nothing to do with the number. i had just seen it one too many times without clarification, so posted on you, .... so the info is out there.
thanks.
i agree with you. there are too many things wrong with that posters argument for me to even put an effort forward, corrrecting his misthinking.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)bitches, they be lying. you know, for all the cool shit that happens to rape victims.
ZX86
(1,428 posts)When they don't report rapes for the VERY SAME reasons adults don't report rapes?
I think you are simplifying a very complex problem into either/or absolutes.
politicman
(710 posts)Because like I said, children are children, they don't have the same mental capacity as adults to know what is right and what is wrong most of the time, they don't have the same support structures that they can turn to if they want to report abuse or rape.
But most of all, children's minds are not fully formed as to know if what is happening to them is right or wong, etc.
Ino
(3,366 posts)You would never understand.
Somehow I don't think even a trial would convince you someone had been raped. After all, maybe she liked it rough and now regrets it. Maybe she invited it just to accuse him unjustly. Maybe she beat herself up. Funny, she doesn't look bruised... maybe it wasn't "legitimate" rape. There is no evidence that would counteract all the maybes you could come up with.
Women can't be helped if they don't speak up? Hell, they can't be helped even if they do, as you so adroitly point out.
politicman
(710 posts)Again I ask you:
What is it that you think is a satisfactory outcome if a woman alleges rape.
Do you want everyone to believe her automatically and send the guy straight tot jail without testing the evidence in court?
Ino
(3,366 posts)politicman
(710 posts)But the way our justice system works is that it is the accuser that needs to prove their case, whilst the person being accused is accorded the presumption of innocence until the case is proven against them.
If a guy is being accused of a rape then it is the guy that can end up in jail, so it is the guy that needs to be believed first until enough evidence or testimony is gathered to indicate that the guy should be taken to trial and that evidence against him tested.
Not too mention that allegations on their own can ruin someone's reputation, so forgive me if I don't automatically want to give the benefit of the doubt to the accuser and not the defendant.
Ino
(3,366 posts)What a quaint notion, that a court of law is the be-all and end-all of truth. Plenty of innocent people get jailed. Plenty of guilty ones go free.
You go on living in Justice La-La-Land, that mythical country where OJ is innocent and these guys are guilty; where cops always tell the truth and lawyers are entirely ethical; where judges are never corrupted and juries have no prejudices; where rape kits are always tested; where any evidence can be mansplained away with some form of "she asked for it"; where if a rape doesn't fit the legal definition, well then it wasn't rape.
Meanwhile, in the court of public opinion, a lot of people will go on thinking Bill Cosby is a creep. It's the least we can do. Don't worry though. He won't see a day of jail. He'll joke about it.
Quote from Patton Oswalt:
http://fansided.com/2014/12/07/patton-oswalt-says-comedians-knew-bill-cosby-always-rapey/
Response to politicman (Reply #70)
Post removed
alarimer
(16,245 posts)People who are drunk CANNOT consent. Period.
Rape does not require force, Sen. Akin.
He'll never get it. Sounds to me like he's trying to justify some pretty questionable behaviour.
Probably something along these lines...
Logical
(22,457 posts)On Sat Jan 10, 2015, 11:07 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
no one can help if women wont help themselves by reporting it....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6070360
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
This is victim blaming from somebody who clearly has a serious hatred of women. We wouldn't make any other group on DU read this sort of bilge about them as a class. If any poster said that black people routinely lie about police brutality they'd be bounced on their ear, and this is at least that awful.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jan 10, 2015, 11:15 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerter is extrapolating what the post in question actually wrote. Asserting that women should report rape is not outrageous.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Don't like some if the wording but raises a point for discussion
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: FFS, I am so sick of dumb alerts.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I find I cannot comment, because commenting on what this says is more likely to get me juried than what the original alerts were about, lol.
I wonder if anyone else has noticed some of the older DU women's advocates are now missing. I wonder why...
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)like what has been alerted on sails through w "Leave it alone" by clueless (can't even say what I want to say) who have no idea what it feels like to be one one who is raped vs. the one who rapes.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)politicman
(710 posts)Its not that I have lack of empathy for victims, its that I don't know who is a victim that deserves empathy and who is not, simply because women wont report the rape and deal with the issues that arise with it, thus how can I feel empathy for someone that suffered something that I don't know about.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)for a victim that is dealing with an aftermath of a traumatic event that for whatever reason isn't ready or prepared to deal with the issues that come up with it. I do know this, whether they choose to do so or not, it doesn't change the reality of what took place for victims.
politicman
(710 posts)about it.
Again, how can I feel empathy for a victim of a crime if that victim never alerts anyone that a crime has been committed against them?
How can anyone know a crime has been committed if no one ever reports that a crime has been committed?
I feel empathy for every one that suffers from anything, whether I know about it or not, so if there are (and I agree there are) women out there that have been raped and haven't reported it then I also feel empathy for them.
But to feel empathy for a specific woman that has been raped, I'll need to know there has been a rape in the first place and that starts with them reporting to.
Response to politicman (Reply #43)
JonLP24 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)The most common reasons given by victims for not reporting rapes are the belief that it is a personal or private matter, and that they fear reprisal from the assailant. A 2007 British government report says "Estimates from research suggest that between 75 and 95 percent of rape crimes are never reported to the police.
And the followup is even if reported, it may not be investigated. Then if it is investigated, the person has to relive the trauma. Rape charges are often not taken seriously.
So even if a woman decides to try to get help, the cards are stacked against her.
politicman
(710 posts)That's fine, but if I was mugged in the street, and there was no one around to see it happen, would I just carry on home or would I go to the police station and report it?
If I got home and my house had been burgled, would I just clean up and act like nothing happened and never tell anyone, or would I call the police and report it in the hope that they could find some evidence against the burglar.
Go look at the courts, they are chock block full of women (and men) applying for restraining orders against someone they fear, these women don't fear the same kind of reprisal that women who are allegedly raped fear of their assailants? The reason people apply for restraining orders is to use the law to try and protect themselves, yet rape victims refuse to use the law to protect themselves.
So all I'm saying is that if you don't report a rape, then no one can help you or even protect you from your assailant.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)or there can be no justice. However there is trauma involved which affects the mind, and that is a reason along with the fact that even if reported, may be dismissed, that a person may not report it.
But I do agree, without bringing charges, no one else can bring justice onto the rapist.
politicman
(710 posts)And that's all I'm saying, if women want guys to understand how widespread and disgusting rape is, then women need to step up and report the rapes when they happen and then have their evidence or testimony tested in court, otherwise doing it 30 years later wont achieve anything but make many guys not believe the next women that alleges rape.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)Yes, women should report rapes (as should men as in the OP's example) -- but we can't leave it at that. If nonreporting isn't just an idiosyncratic decision by some individuals, but is a predictable consequence of systemic factors (as I believe it is), then just sitting back and saying "women need to step up and report the rapes when they happen" is unrealistic. Society needs to consider how to address the problems that deter some women from doing so.
Of course, it's easier to note the problem than to craft effective solutions. For example, the trauma of going through a criminal prosecution as the witness against the defendant could be alleviated if we let a mere accusation constitute proof, but I think everyone here would agree with you in rejecting that solution. Still, we'll make no progress toward a societal solution if we pretend it's solely an individual problem.
politicman
(710 posts)But there is no other way around it, as we will always have men that want to abuse and control women through rape.
Look, there are only 2 options, either women report the rape and put up with what they will go through at trial, or you relax the standards for getting a conviction to simply believing an allegation and throwing the guy in prison without letting him exhaust his avenues of defence.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)First, you really ought to stop inveighing against the proposal that a mere allegation be enough for imprisonment. No one here has proposed that, so it's a straw-man argument, and your constant invocation of it lowers your credibility.
Second, as to the specifics, here's another alternative that occurs to me just off the top of my head. It's obvious that a woman who reports a rape is often in great emotional turmoil, and is at risk of finding the interview very traumatic. We might conclude that pretty much any police officer can handle the initial complaints of assault, robbery, and the like, but that a woman who presents with a rape complaint should be referred to a specialist -- an officer who, by virtue of natural temperament and with training in such interviews, is better able to discharge the basic police functions without further traumatizing the complainant. We might reach a similar conclusion about the choice of the assistant district attorney who will work with her in presenting the prosecution's case in court.
That procedure wouldn't entail the slightest retreat from the presumption of innocence or from any of the defendant's rights under the Fifth and Sixth Amendments. It might, however, increase the percentage of rape victims who initially report the rape, as well as the percentage who are willing to persevere through the trial that you and I both think should occur.
That's just one example of why "women should report their rapes" is true but is not the end of the story.
CrispyQ
(36,445 posts)you would not be asked by the police & family & friends, what you were wearing, why were you out at this time of night alone, & why did you wear a $10k watch in this neighborhood. Your report would be taken seriously, no one would suggest that you were lying, & you would not be made to feel like some or all of the crime was your fault. None of us can know how we would react to such a horrific & stigmatized event, but I can certainly understand why rape victims don't come forward.
A Little Weird
(1,754 posts)
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)I made a rational decision that the circumstances made the chances he'd face any consequences approximately zero, and that reporting the act would cause me a lot of additional grief and trauma while offering no benefit whatsoever.
I was still raped. He's still a rapist. I don't need a notarized seal of victimhood approval from the ER, the state or from you. I was there and I know what happened to me.
Now keep your ignorant opinion to yourself, you woman-hating asshole.
politicman
(710 posts)I don't know if you were raped or not, but if you were then I am sorry you had to go through that.
But do you want a world where you or anyone else can say they were raped and people like me believe you automatically without ever questioning you or anyone else?
(Not being an ass-hole, just trying to show that we have a justice system for a reason, and that reason being to decide which version of the story is true, your version of the guys version)
Again, I'm not trying to offend you as I think rape is a horrific thing, I just don't want a world where every one is automatically believed when they say or allege something without it being tested in court because that would a dangerous world.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)JTFrog
(14,274 posts)You should be ashamed of yourself. No one gives a fuck what "people like you" believe.
And most people who use the "I'm not trying to offend" line know damn well that they are trying to do just that.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)As I said above, I was piss drunk in college and a woman had sex with me. I would NEVER had consented to sex had I been sober (I don't even remember it, she told me about it). However, she was also drinking.
When I laid out a scenario like this MANY times on DU, mostly female posters told me I was a rape apologist, a woman hater and a rapist.
If I did the same thing to a female in the position I went through, I would be excoriated (if not tombstoned).
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)but in this case, I'm willing to be juried right along with you due to the crass and hurtful nature of what this person has been posting.
You are absolutely right, and it is horrible that it happened to you. A person such as the one you are responding to will not ever get it unless it happens directly to them or someone they love.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)justice system when it comes to rape. Most of them, they do not even try to investigate. They leave the rape kits covered in dust, when all evidence shows there are serious serial offenders who could- and should- be serving longer terms. WHy the fuck do they put women through all of this if they are doing nothing?
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Rape survivors do NOT need to be patronized. They do not need to be shamed for not telling. As far as the time that elapses between an act of rape and when the survivor feels empowered to speak out--that is a variable about which you have very little understanding.
I encourage you to read Susan Brownmiller's iconic book, "Against Our Will." I encourage you to refrain from crass and judgmental remarks about rape survivors.
politicman
(710 posts)Yes, like I said 'if a women was really raped'.
I say that because I don't accept as fact straight away that a woman was raped simply because she says so.
There is a reason we have a justice system, without the courts to test the validity of claims, this would be a dangerous world where anyone can say anything and allege anything and be believed automatically.
I am not against women, I despise rapists as much as anyone, I just refuse to label anyone a rapist if they have not been found guilty of rape.
And because of this, I will not believe any woman that alleges rape until she and the authorities can convince a jury that a man raped her as she alleges.
Its why we have a justice system in the first place.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Do you say you need to wait for the car thief's side of the story, because maybe he was entitled to drive the car after all?
No, you say "that sucks, is insurance going to pay for it?"
You assume women are liars. You don't make the same assumption about victims of other crimes.
You have issues with women.
adirondacker
(2,921 posts)politicman
(710 posts)Ah see, if someone's car was stolen, the insurance will never pay out a cent if the owner of the car doesn't report it as stolen.
And in many cases, even if the owner does report the car as stolen, the insurance still tests the validity of the claim before they pay out any insurance.
Add to that that the cops will not just take your word that you know who stole your car and arrest that person without having any evidence at all.
Woman that allege rape are making a very serious accusation against a man that can cost him his freedom for decades, thus I won't automatically believe them just because they say it, they will need to convince a jury that a rape occurred and then I will believe them
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)My point is that if somebody tells you that they're a victim of a crime other than rape, presuming you're not a generally anti-social dickwad,you express sympathy rather than skepticism. In other words, you assume, for purposes of generalized social interaction, that their account is truthful.
But for rape you want to wait until there's a complaint, a prosecution and a conviction. Very few rapes go that far in the process, and those that do take a very long time. So you want to disbelieve almost all rapes and force the very few victims you're willing to concede aren't liars to wait for years for their stamp of virtuous victimhood approval.
There is literally no other crime you would treat this way.
Because you have issues with women.
Response to LeftyMom (Reply #79)
Post removed
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)A few years ago my sister was a juror on a cold case rape and murder. The crime had happened several decades beforehand. The rapist and murderer had been convicted of another crime shortly after the crime in question and had sat in the state pen on those other charges (and a few more he racked up in prison) until a match was found between his DNA sample and evidence from this very old crime. He was convicted of that rape and murder after a very short trial, which he conceded he only contested at all so he'd get a few days out of prison.
By your standards he wasn't a rapist and that dead girl wasn't a rape victim until 12 jurors said so.
Your standards are either insane or malicious. I'll let the reader decide.
Response to LeftyMom (Reply #91)
A-Schwarzenegger This message was self-deleted by its author.
LiberalLoner
(9,761 posts)politicman
(710 posts)Exactly, he wasn't a rapist and that dead girl wasn't his rape victim until 12 jurors said so, that's the way our justice system works, innocent until proven guilty.
Its odd to say this, but yes he would have raped and killed that little girl several decades ago, but because there was no way of proving he was the one that did it until DNA evidence as available, then up until the 12 jurors believed the DNA evidence, it could have been anyone that raped and murdered that poor little girl.
I think that guy is complete scum and should rot in jail for the rest of his life, but the moment I let my emotions cloud my judgments on who is guilty and who is not, then that's the moment that the next time I serve on a jury I wont be able to give the defendant the beyond reasonable doubt threshold.
Look, allegations to me are just that, allegations, they could be true or could not be true, but I wont start labelling and convicting every man every time a woman alleges he raped her simply because the allegations have a possibility of being true.
The only way that could ever happen is if we knew for certain that every woman that makes a rape allegation is completely truthful, and we already know that that will never be the case as there people in the world who can easily tell lies (both men and women) and no one deserves to be believed merely because they make an allegation which can ruin someone else's life.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)that she wasn't really raped (presumably you do think she was dead, at least) and her murderer wasn't a rapist.
And then, decades later, a computer went *ping* and a jury was formed and a week and a half later he was a rapist and she was in fact raped?
This is outright bizarre. Somebody could make a career out of sitting your loony ass down and writing a paper about the shit that comes out of your mouth.
Response to LeftyMom (Reply #96)
Post removed
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)A rape occurs if it occurs whether or not the legal system recognized it as such.
I was raped by a neighbor as a child (I'm a man). I was ashamed, because the older boy who did it told me it was my fault. I never reported to the police, and I never even reported it to my parents. I was ashamed. I even had medical problems associated with the assault, and I STILL didn't say anything.
Don't you DARE tell me I wasn't a rape victim, or that my rapist isn't a rapist until some court says so.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Someone can really and truly rape, murder, or do any other thing you can imagine, and not be found guilty. It doesn't mean they aren't a rapist, or muderer, or whatever else. Reality exists regardless.
The way our system of justice works, some guilty people will always be found not guilty. That doesn't mean that reality ceases to exist.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Apparently, I didn't get you on my IL fast enough.
Rape is a crime for which RAPISTS are solely responsible. Until and unless we prosecute rapists to the fullest extent of the law--and the law needs to be revised to provide SERIOUS incarceration times for rape--women will continue to be raped by men who refuse to accept that NO means NO. We need to prosecute rapists WITHOUT PUTTING RAPE SURVIVORS ON TRIAL!
I sincerely hope you never have to support a friend or family member who has been raped. IMHO, you would seriously suck at it.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)You obviously don't get it and you are just trying to stir up shit. I can't even say what I actually think of you.
Behind the Aegis
(53,938 posts)"any women that decides not to report a rape only has herself to blame."
WRONG! She (or he) has the RAPIST to blame. PERIOD!
"Women need to take responsibility,"
WRONG! No, the RAPIST and SOCIETY need to take responsibility!
DO NOT blame the victim! EVER! This includes blaming them AFTER THE FACT!
politicman
(710 posts)What you don't understand is just that because a woman says she was raped, it doesn't meant that she was raped.
That's what we have the justice system and courts, to test the validity of allegations and to test the states case against the accused.
So yeah, when a woman says she was raped and doesn't report it then she has only herself to blame for the alleged rapists not having to defend himself in court.
So yeah, when a woman alleges rape, I wont automatically believe her just because she says so, I wait until I see the evidence tested in court to see which side of the story a jury believes.
Behind the Aegis
(53,938 posts)So no, when a victim claims to have been raped and doesn't report it, s/he only has the RAPIST to blame! PERIOD!
politicman
(710 posts)By the same token, if something is not been proven to have happened, then how do we know it happened at all.
How can there be a victim of a crime if a crime was never reported or proven to have occurred?
Why should the rapist be to blame for a woman not reporting her rape if we have no way of knowing that there was an actual rape in the first place?
Behind the Aegis
(53,938 posts)"How can there be a victim of a crime if a crime was never reported or proven to have occurred? "
That is BEYOND stupid! That isn't even a logical statement!
"Why should the rapist be to blame for a woman not reporting her rape if we have no way of knowing that there was an actual rape in the first place?:
BECAUSE S/HE RAPED SOMEONE! That is why s/he is to BLAME!
politicman
(710 posts)You know what a crime is don't you? Its when someone breaks the law.
So if we a woman doesn't report that a crime has occurred, how on earth can you be so sure that a crime realty did occur?
And even if a woman does report that a crime against her was committed, it still is not proof that an actual crime was committed. And even if the state believes her and a trial results, that still does not mean that a crime was committed.
People have beaten charges against them in court, so the only time that we can 100% sure that a crime was committed by a specific person after that have been found guilty of the alleged crime.
Are you really that obtuse?
How can you know a rape has been committed against a woman if she doesn't speak up and say she was raped?
You want to blame a rapist for his victim not reporting the rape when we have no way of knowing if a rape occurred because the unknown victim never tells anyone or reports it?
How can you assume there is a rapist without a victim accuses someone of raping them?
Think before you answer again.
Behind the Aegis
(53,938 posts)"You know what a crime is don't you? Its when someone breaks the law."
You do understand that a crime can happen without being reported, right? Oh wait, do you think it magically isn't a crime if no one reports it?! If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?
"Are you really that obtuse?
How can you know a rape has been committed against a woman if she doesn't speak up and say she was raped? "
Are you?! Rapists have and do brag about their rapes. Are they really not rapes if no one has reported it?
"You want to blame a rapist for his victim not reporting the rape when we have no way of knowing if a rape occurred because the unknown victim never tells anyone or reports it? "
Uh, yeah! If s/he hadn't raped the person, there would be NO rape! DUH!
"Think before you answer again. "
I won't ask the same of you, as your posts have made that a seemingly impossible request.
H2O Man
(73,528 posts)how can we really be sure a murder has been committed, if the dead victim doesn't report it to the police?
Think before you answer!
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I guffawed, snort laughed at your post.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)Say I was beaten to pulp and it's pretty damn obvious someone did it to me. By the logic you have presented thus far, you will question it in this way: "Did it really happen or is she just accusing someone to get revenge on someone?" "Was it possible that she made it up and wasn't actually beaten?" "I shouldn't believe her because she's probably lying that she's been beaten up."
Better yet, if I report what happened later than when it happened because I could be at risk of being killed, your conclusions go to: "She deserved being beaten up because she was possibly lying about it and she shouldn't be trusted until she faces a judge."
That is absolutely the message you've shown thus far to this thread.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)George Zimmerman still murdered Trayvon Martin, Regardless of what the courts said.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)ZX86
(1,428 posts)Men shouldn't date psycho-women who would pull such a stunt. I've dated a lot a women and come across, many with serious character flaws. Gold diggers, birth control liars, husband cheaters etc. I drop them like a bad habit. It's not a fool proof plan but better than no plan at all.
I don't think all rape accusations should be taken at face value regardless of all other circumstances but I'm willing to bet there are a lot more rapes than false rape allegations.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)No, you do not understand. Classic mansplaining.
politicman
(710 posts)Ok then, let me ask you, if someone wont speak up and alert us that they are a victim, why should I or anyone else think of them as a victim?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Trauma does not result in a logical, calm and ordered mind.
politicman
(710 posts)That fine, I can accept that statement, it actually makes sense.
So let me ask you, what is it that you hope for then.
Do you want every woman that makes a rape allegation against a man to be believed automatically?
Do you want rape allegations to be enough to put a man behind bars without the need to test the evidence in a court of law?
Do you want women to report their rapes more often?
Because if you want the last one, then I think you would do more good to encourage women to report their rapes and deal with the issues that arise with it.
Response to politicman (Reply #33)
Post removed
politicman
(710 posts)See, you cant handle reasonable questions and statements that don't fit your idea of what is good and bad, and then you resort to name calling and insults.
But I wont even bother to report your post, as it makes no difference to me how unreasonable and incapable of civil discussion you are, all you do is show that you can handle anyone challenging your view on things.
Quixote1818
(28,926 posts)Please read this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/sandy-garossino/jian-ghomeshi-women-report-sex-assault_b_6059124.html
What kind of woman doesn't report?
So what kind of woman is reluctant to report sexual assault? Anyone who consumed drugs or alcohol before the incident, who was intoxicated; who flirted with, has a relationship with, knows, or has significantly lower status than the perpetrator.
Any woman who's had an abortion or messy divorce. Anyone who might be in a custody battle. Anyone with a sketchy social media history. Anyone who's sexted nude photos or has unorthodox sexual tastes.
Any sex worker. Anyone who initially consented to sex. Anyone with addiction issues. Anyone afraid of her assailant. Any First Nations woman. Anyone from a minority or immigrant community. Anyone who's been raped before and not been believed.
Anyone without a strong support network. Any woman who waits too long. Anyone who's seen a shrink, or been prescribed medication for mental or emotional conditions. Any woman who doesn't want her medical records or psychiatric history disclosed. Or who has family members and a community who could be hurt or shamed by disclosure or publicity. Anyone with a criminal record or who is on public assistance.
Any woman with a past. Any woman with a future she doesn't want derailed by the stress of reporting.
In short, the kind of woman who doesn't report a sexual attack is almost any normal rational woman.
politicman
(710 posts)And how would you distinguish between a woman that was genuinely raped as compared to one that consented to sex but regretted it later and alleged rape because she thought rape would not ruin her reputation as much?
(Keeping in mind that I readily accept that the first scenario happens a lot more than the latter scenario)
Point being that how would you distinguish between the 2 scenarios if you don't have a trial to know which scenario (or other scenario) actually occurred? Just by believing the woman automatically because men are evil and women never tell lies to cover up things?
Not too mention that if a woman doesn't report the rape at all, then what evidence can you point to that she was actually raped? I know how you are going to answer this question, but I'm asking how you know for certain a rape occurred if the woman never admitted to anyone that she was raped.
Quixote1818
(28,926 posts)which may come sooner or later. It's not my job or your job to distinguish between 2 scenarios, if she was raped she was raped. Our job is to raise awareness that most women are not going to admit they were raped because it's a dirty process and even if they were raped they will probably lose. So instead of you spending all this time arguing that you don't have an obligation to believe a women who tells her best friend from childhood she was rapped and no one else, maybe spend a bit more time being sensitive to how extremely difficult this is for anyone, woman or male and raise awareness for these tortured souls so in the future they feel more comfortable coming forward and justice can be served.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i thought maybe the reaction may be over the top in their defense of me, with their lifetime boisterous claims of maleness.
i say this in love and understanding with the complexity of the issue.
emotionless, without the drama or trauma of the situation, i was imparting relevant information to a discussion. i felt that i would bring up past personal experience, for better understanding.
i wasnt asking anything from these men, in support. that was not a position i was coming from. so, they did not have to deal with the recent of the event as it was a couple decades after. they did not have to deal with the emotion of it, cause meh.... i do not take any kind of blame or responsibility of it, and it is simply for me personally to not feel attached to the experience. and htere was no need for them to provide any empathy or sympathy for the experience.
two said nothing as if they did not even hear. and one said, why would you tell me this?
in the discussion all i said was i had experienced rape.
i did not go into it in anyway. just that simple statement.... in a discussion. two were silent, and one said... do not say that out loud.
yet. i see on this subthread, a man, telling me how i am suppose to do it. when clearly, every step of the way, we women are told to shut the fuck up about it, lay back and enjoy if inevitable.
very offensive.
yet i see posters that bluntly and less than civilly challenge that, get a hide.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)are exhausted? repelled? challenging this stuff. it should well be behind us. yet it is not. it is more and more shoved in our face. du use to be a space where the acceptance was not so readily allowed.
So your relatives are fine, upstanding women
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6070503
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
The poster never said these things. Also, it is very rude and ott to insinuate that someone has psychological issues.
JURY RESULTS
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Jan 11, 2015, 01:58 AM, and the Jury voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Since du now allows the MRA trolls, our regulars have the leeway to be blunt in rebuttal.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Inappropriate.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I agree with the alerter that the previous poster "never said these things." The alerted post is monumentally stupid in its misreading. I agree with politicman's response in #52. I'd add that there's some middle ground -- in fact, a fairly large middle ground -- between not believing that every rape accusation is truthful and believing that every woman on the planet (other than one's own relatives) "is a horrible bitch". Nevertheless, neither this lack of reading comprehension nor the "You have issues" crack strikes me as being enough to justify a hide.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
MineralMan
(146,284 posts)Apologists for rape don't do well on DU.
Hekate
(90,624 posts)We've been mansplained
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Thanks. I am too f**ing angry to say what I feel like saying to this troll.
Raster
(20,998 posts)... when your mother, your wife, your sister or your daughter gets raped, why don't you come on back and 'splain to us how you "... won't just believe a women automatically if she says she was raped, whether she does it the same day or 30 years later." Why don't you come on back and again reiterate your rationale du jour for blaming the victim.
politicman
(710 posts)If my relative was raped, I would believe her because I know and trust her, I give her the benefit of the doubt and believe her because I know and trust her.
When a woman that I don't know and have built no trust with says she was raped, I don't automatically believe her because I have nothing no relationship with that woman to base my trust on.
Whereas the law will not and should not believe just anyone that makes any allegation because the law doesn't build relationship based trust with people, the law should test that allegation through a trial, and I'm glad it does.
Response to politicman (Reply #45)
Post removed
politicman
(710 posts)Don't put words in my mouth that I never wrote or said.
What I said was that I would believe my relatives because they earned me believing them through building a trusting relationship between us.
I would give the benefit of the doubt to my relatives only because I have built trust in them.
With a woman I don't know, I haven't built any trust with her, so I wont automatically give her the benefit of the doubt when she makes an allegation.
That's how the world works, trust is a hard thing to earn simply because you don't have to question anyone anymore if you believe they are trustworthy. And that's the same reason why you don't build trust with every person you ever meet, only those close to you deserve the trust you place in them,.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)an idiot like YOU to believe her. You are of no consequence. You are obviously a misogynistic troll and not worth arguing with.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)a user of MRA talking points and, worst of all, I was the rapist.
Sorry, but the bullshit flows every which way here,
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)ALERTER'S COMMENTS
This is victim blaming from somebody who clearly has very serious issues with/an active hatred of women. This sort of hatred addressed at any other group would not be permitted on DU: we would bounce a poster who said that black people lie about police brutality for example. Women should not have to see this kind of garbage said about them.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jan 10, 2015, 11:22 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster is simply saying that people are sometimes falsely accused of rape, which we know is true. He says that's usually not the case. I'm told that people accused of rape are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, which seems consistent with what the poster is saying, that the burden of the proof is in showing that the rapist is guilty.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The post is ignorant and and wrong, but it shows where a lot of men's minds in this country are in regards to the issue. It doesn't mean he hates women necessarily, just that he's clearly ignorant about how horrific it is to be raped and then be afraid of what you'll have to endure if you report it. he's ignorant to the psychological damage the crime inflicts on the victim, which makes you already scared and feeling dirty and wrong for having been raped. If he new these things, if he understood what the crime really does to a person, well, he wouldn't be the ignorant person he is saying B.S. like this. If you're interested in discussion on the topic, then that includes taking up the task if educating ignorant people. Not deeming them women haters and putting them in a box with a label, but trying to reach them. Hiding this post just ends a chance for you to educate him.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: As a woman I find the comment distasteful, but it is strictly opinion and this poster should be able to post such opinions. I'm quite certain contrasting views will soon share their opinions too.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: lol load of stereotype BS and fantasies foisted off as "facts". Can't hide this fast enough.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)alarimer
(16,245 posts)You clearly do not understand the subject all.
Over 90% of all rapes go unreported, a fraction of the reported ones are prosecuted and even fewer convictions happen. Yet you focus on the very, very few cases of false accusation? So, yes, bullshit.
They are silent, when they are, because of the things you just mentioned. The fucking judgmental bullshit, the victim-blaming, the automatic assumption that she must be lying.
If I said what I really wanted to right not, this post would be deleted.
whopis01
(3,504 posts)Since there exists a possibility of a woman falsely crying rape, you wont believe any woman who does so.
"just the mere fact that it has the possibility of happening is enough to give me pause and wonder whether to believe a certain accusation or not."
"the fact that it can possibly happen that way makes me wonder whether everytime there is an allegation, that maybe it could be real or it could be a ex-lover getting revenge."
Unless the man is found guilty in a court of law.
"I just refuse to label anyone a rapist if they have not been found guilty of rape.
And because of this, I will not believe any woman that alleges rape until she and the authorities can convince a jury that a man raped her as she alleges."
But let's not forget that even though the jury says that he is guilty, there is still a chance that he is innocent.
"Keeping in mind that people still get found guilty for stuff they didn't do."
And on top of that, even an accusation may be going to far.
"Not too mention that allegations on their own can ruin someone's reputation"
It certainly all seems to point to a picture of attempting to discourage women from coming forth at all by repeatedly stating that they are not going to be believed unless they can meet an ever increasing standard of proof. It sounds to me like someone might be trying to intimidate and discredit all women who come forth to challenge their rapists.
And just so you don't get the wrong idea about me accusing you of attempting to discredit or intimidate women, I'll use another of your quotes -
"I am not accusing anyone or suggesting anyone does this, just the mere fact that it has the possibility of happening is enough to give me pause"
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)And the DA refuses to convene a grand jury because the victim "acted like a typical victim".
In the case of a serial sex offender. And the sheriff's office has a victim talking to the perp on tape about all the stuff he does as a public service to help women. Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
Gotta protect good ole boys at any cost.
mythology
(9,527 posts)But taking this logic outside of the emotionally loaded environment of rape makes me not believe the logic's validity.
For example, by your logic, I can't criticize the military because I've never been in it. I can't criticize a parent who beats their kid because I'm not a parent and so I don't know the stress of caring for a kid.
Yes having experience in something does give one a better understanding of a situation, but it's also not a necessity to have an informed opinion on a subject.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)understand what rape does to the psyche. Unless a person has a psychology degree or have been raped I doubt they understand rape. My husband saw the immediate aftermath of two rapes so he saw it on their faces. Not only does he understand what it did to them, it is one the reasons he is now seeing a psychologist. He has seen many things in his life that have been traumatizing and is just now getting the help he needs.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)it may very well not be prosecuted, and just ignored regardless of evidence.
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/11/20/overlooking-rape
The news came in the wake of a city Inspector General’s report released last week, which found that between 2011 and 2013, only 14 percent of the 1,290 sexual assault cases referred to the Special Victims Section of the New Orleans Police Department were investigated. Over 1,000 of those cases were reclassified as “noncriminal” events or given only a cursory write-up, with no accompanying investigation.
Among the un-investigated cases in New Orleans were those of a 2-year-old child who arrived in a hospital emergency room with a sexually transmitted disease, and a woman who told a hospital nurse that her rapist was sending her threatening text messages. In the case of the toddler, a detective closed the investigation, citing a lack of evidence. In the case of the adult woman, a detective declined to submit the victim’s rape kit for testing and did not investigate her cell phone records; in a departmental log, the detective classified the sex as consensual.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)
prairierose
(2,145 posts)biggest reasons women and men do not report rape. These reports are legion. All over the country police departments refuse to have rape kits tested, reclassify rapes as a lesser charge or no charge or noncriminal, or some other euphemism for "we're not going to bother with this". People know this is what happens to many reports of rape. If a rape is prosecuted, the horror gets worse and people know about that too. Most people do not want to voluntarily go through that.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I know they exist in the media or places like message boards but most of the people I run into male or female, have serious problems with rape. I think a lot of people view it as something worse than murder.
The only thing I really remember which was a view more similar to your describing was overhearing 2 men, one saying to the other that he couldn't (and forgive for the language, I didn't use these words or agree with their views) understand why someone would because the area would be dry & 'uncomfortable'. The other said, he maybe they get into being raped. (That kind of thing I don't hear very often but probably because wouldn't admit beliefs like this around mixed company)
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It is not acceptable to rape her, and I will NOT question her choices in being there. There is NO action she can take that makes her more 'guilty' in my mind, for being the victim of rape.
If a person doesn't consent, it's rape. End of story. Male, female, whatever your gender identity/sexuality, I don't care. No consent? It's rape.
Edit; and if you can make a credible case that you've been raped, the rapist does NOT want me in the jury pool, I can promise you that. I'm sorry that's the best I can do, but I do what I can.
Behind the Aegis
(53,938 posts)Like millions of men, I too am a survivor of rape. Your net was too specific, and frankly, your post was quite insulting to those of us who have been victims and have gone on to survive our traumas.
flvegan
(64,407 posts)Not based on what someone that was raped, male or female, might go through, but on the general assumption. Okay, I'm not in the hot seat on this, but if it were me, I'd tell it 1,000 times over. I'm sorry if that's wrong.
And with that, an answer:
No, I don't "understand rape" as the post asked. Don't really know anyone that does. I don't really see how that's gender specific, but okay, I'll play the game posted by the OP, regardless.
What would I do if raped, as a man, in prison for a DUI.
Not really sure why the charge matters, but whatever...the intent of the OP isn't to get to the bottom of anything anyway. So here goes:
Damn fucking right I report it. Don't care the reaction from them. Don't care about the status of the folks I tell. Strangers or whatever. I'm not a (your words) "a DUI driver who has drunken, gay sex, in jail" because I'm not. So that's not what they would know.
What WOULD I do? File charges immediately. That provides me benefits. I know everything about my rapist through reporting. Who they are, where they live, etc. Then, I destroy them. I know all about him, his family. I know about his home, his property. Piece by piece I ruin everything he has, and take it away. I destroy his family. I SHAC his business. It's punishment. You want shame? Live with this, rapist.
And lastly, I'd leverage my friends. I won't put anything additional on that, except: BE one of *those* friends. Please, if you can.
Kevin from WI
(184 posts)You seem to be implying that all men victim blame based on some rotten comments written about Bill Cosby by trolls. If trolls are what you use to make your decisions about what all men think I doubt there is much I can do to change your mind. I will just say I don't do any of the things you've accused men of doing.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)being raped in jail is not the same as "drunken gay sex." Rape is rape, even if the person doing the raping is of the same gender. Drunken gay sex is a different thing entirely. That part of what you posted disturbed me, because the rest of what you were saying was spot on about how rape victims are blamed for the crimes committed against them (us, I was raped years ago).
arthritisR_US
(7,286 posts)are so smart and so all knowing, I'm sick,
I'm done.
trumad
(41,692 posts)because 99.9 percent agree with the Op and .1 percent push back with subtle caveats that pretty much give them away.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)"Do the men who have never been raped understand rape?"
I know all about the statistics, no need to lecture me that men commit rape more than women do.
Igel
(35,293 posts)If this happens, I empathize. Perhaps not as heartfelt as others would wish.
After dealing with the emotional and physiological trauma, the question the next minute is, What to do about it? The trauma is going to affect what people think the right course of action is. But that's not going to change the law or how to make the process fair to everybody in all possible relevant situations.
Whatever we make the right course of action for your scenario is also going to have to be the right situation for the girl or guy who has one drink too many and asks a partner to bed only to regret it two days later. Or the person who's badgered until consent's given after one drink too many. It's going to have to be the right course of action for the person who's drugged and gang raped by 5 guys in the alley and left bleeding. It's going to have to be the right course of action for the guy who has too much to drink, goes home with a woman out to spite her husband, and is accused of rape when hubby finds out. And for the woman and guy both of whom get completely wasted and wind up in bed together the next morning. And for the stone-sober woman who makes out with a stone-sober guy, strips, gets into bed with him naked, participates, and next morning regrets it but recalls that at no point did she ever say "yes". Going back to some advocatorial definition of rape and getting all the semen recipients in those situations to all say they were raped is specious. Not all were. Some clearly were. Some are in the middle, both responsible or neither responsible.
There are all wildly different scenarios. But the law's going to be pretty much the same for all of them, even if there are different levels of guilt and responsibility. Some want the semen donor to always be held responsible--sober or drunk; and the recipient to always be held as the innocent victim. Even if that's true 99.9% of the time, it's not always true and we don't knowingly crush the innocent just to be sure to exact punishment from the guilty. Some want the recipient to be able to make an accusation 3 years later with no evidence at all and for the accused to be punished just as much as if the incident was on video with iron-clad DNA tests and real-time blood-alcohol level monitoring of all parties.
Often what we have now is asymmetrically unfair. The woman typically bears the brunt of the trauma, with the legal burden of starting the criminal process, providing evidence, and testifying that's placed on her further traumatizing her. How society treats the woman makes things no less traumatic--being robbed is humiliated, being raped is much worse. At the same time, the burden of responsibility for being "his sister's keeper" is often shifted entirely to the guy who often has a serious conflict of interest and is expected to be responsible even if he's intoxicated. If my blood alcohol level is 0.16 I'm to be held to a higher degree of responsibility than my 0.081 partner? What if I don't remember the night in question--she says she said "no", but she may have a conflict of interest.
The way that we argue by anecdote instead of logic and reason doesn't help. It mixes emotion and compassion for a specific real or hypothetical victim with how to handle the general case and write the law. Use mercy and compassion in individual cases, not in writing the law.
What happens is that there's often no justice and there is absolutely no way to make sure that all and only the guilty get punished. This violates our sense of morality and justice. Often the woman has to bear the burden not just of being the victim but being seen as a victim or hussy, and making her victimization public. If the woman doesn't do this soon after the incident often there's a lack of evidence so she can't get justice. But we still have high standards for evidence, which constitutes a kind of burden. I can and do empathize with the unfairness of the first, but it's a standard kind of unfairness. The victim has to give evidence. I understand the need for the latter kind of unfairness, as well, because it's also standard: murder cases can be hard to crack when they're old because of a lack of evidence.
As an anecdote to show what *can* go wrong, take the case of a priest in the early '00s at the height of the Catholic child-abuse scandal. A woman accused a priest of raping her. Repeatedly. Gave dates and times and locations. Was adamant that this guy coerced her into having sex. It made the news nationally--this was in Los Angeles, he was suspended pending inquiry, his picture splashed over the national news. I heard it in west New York State. Turns out the guy wasn't in California on any of the dates she listed, and had been reassigned to another state before many of the dates so he no longer had an office. Somebody leaked her psych records and she'd been getting professional psych help. She tended to confabulate to justify her delusions. Some pointed out the guy was exonerated after having been libeled nationally. Others went back to saying the woman was the real victim: she'd been violated by having her medical records made public.
In your scenario, yes, the claim has to be made: a lawyer contacted to arrange for rape testing. Police may dislike it because it's an easy way to run up charges against the budget and disrupt things if it's falsely claimed too often. The innocent on both sides need protecting and rights are, after all, still rights. That may sound cold and uncaring, but justice is the application of the law to protect not just the rights of the perceived victim or the real victim, but everybody. It's inherently imperfect and in every case inherently biased against the plaintiff and in favor of the defendant (who's presumed innocent).
But the alternative--the claim against the UO basketball player and some of the demands that the lawsuit seems to make--are equally bad, if not worse.
Threedifferentones
(1,070 posts)This OP implies that women "understand" rape and men do not. However, tt is quite common for the victim blaming and slut shaming of rape victims to be other women.
Being male or female does not automatically grant one empathy, nor does it enable one to see all the reasons why a victim would be too afraid or too stressed to come forward and attempt to press charges.
Now, I certainly believe that if you take a given person who does not "understand" rape it is more likely to be a man, and if you take a given person who does "understand" that person is more likely to be a woman. But, this OP seems to imply those differences would be like >99% vs <1%, ie pretty much all women "understand" and pretty much all men don't.
Now, obviously no matter how empathetic and aware we are no one can really understand what it is like to be raped without having been assaulted. Since women are much more likely than men to be raped in this sense we can say that many more women understand the reality of a rape victim's choices than men.
Still, the OP seems oblivious to the fact that many women who have not been raped will go down the same "laundry list" of what a rape victim should do, I guess because she is under the mistaken impression that all women "get it" and pretty much all of us men don't. I don't buy that for a moment, because it clearly is not true!
Response to ZX86 (Original post)
Kablooie This message was self-deleted by its author.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)would have an intellectual reaction, but no emotional understanding of his rape and no feelings of trauma.
I call bullshit. You need to raise your game about humans and human emotion. Or maybe you just forgot that men can be raped by men.
Veilex
(1,555 posts)Perhaps you are unable to connect emotionally... but you hardly constitute "most men".
Men are subject to emotional trauma just like women are because they are *gasp* human.
Take your sexist self somewhere else.
Response to Veilex (Reply #149)
Kablooie This message was self-deleted by its author.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Veilex
(1,555 posts)I'd agree that our culture tends to inure men against considering the situation women deal with after this style of assault.
Those who have experienced it, or who have loved ones or friends who have gone through it, tend to have a dramatically different view on it.
Its hard to be able to understand a particular type of affliction unless you've been there, or know someone who's shared some of that understanding with you. Point of example: I expect few here know what its like to lose a brother in arms while on deployment. Rape is similar in that you cannot possibly know what its like to deal with unless it impacts your life directly, or the person who was impacted by it shares their experiences with you.
Rape steals away your choice... and not just in the one instance. It affects the rest your life. You end up having to fight against your own inner turmoil every single time you deal with someone of the gender who assaulted you... and sometimes, the other gender as well. Everyone becomes a potential rapist, in your mind. It makes it very very hard to get close to people. It also does more insidious things, like inserting doubt into your every action. You question your value as a person and you begin finding fault in everything you do. Suicide is fairly common among rape victims. at least, that's one perspective.
http://www.suicide.org/rape-victims-prone-to-suicide.html
Response to Veilex (Reply #160)
Kablooie This message was self-deleted by its author.
Blue_Adept
(6,397 posts)Just... man, I cannot even wrap my head around it.
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)We can have some idea, but it is almost impossible to fully imagine the horror.
It is not just a gender issue: although women are more likely than men to be rape victims, men and boys are raped too, and can also be treated with horrible insensitivity and cruelty if they report the crime.
Some people, even nowadays, seem to forget that rapists are guilty of a crime, and victims are NOT the people guilty of the crime.
CTyankee
(63,900 posts)sexual assault. Because it IS an assault, an aggravated sexual one. It violates one's body and one's soul and mind.
Orrex
(63,191 posts)My experience with a "potential rapist."[hr]In my senior year I was in pretty good shape but was of slight build and didn't have much power in my upper body. A good friend of mine graduated a year earlier. She excelled in the "strength" events--shot put, discuss and javelin—and in fact held the school's records in each. She was considerably overweight and not conventionally attractive. She was also shy and a bit of a geek, which is part of why we were friends.
While on a visit home from college, she came to the school to watch the track team practicing, and afterward she offered to give me a ride home in her VW Bug. We stopped by McDonalds and drove to some back road to chat and catch up.
During that conversation she lamented that she had trouble making friends, that she had never kissed a guy, and that she didn't understand why guys didn't give her a chance even though she was kind and funny and smart. She expressed feelings of profound loneliness, and she confessed that she felt closer to me than to any other guy.
She paused and looked away for a moment, and in that moment I had an ugly and entirely unfair thought: she out-massed me by at least 70 pounds, and she was much stronger than I was. If she had tried to force herself on me, I absolutely wouldn't have been able to stop her.
Let me stress that she hated violence and was as gentle a person as you could hope to meet. I had no reason to think that she would ever try to harm me in any way, nor has she ever done so. I was ashamed even to think of it, and she would have been deeply hurt if I'd revealed it to her.
Still, I have to admit that I thought of it.
The experience was very brief, lasting just a few seconds, but it utterly transformed my thinking in a way that lingers to this day. I don't pretend to know how a woman feels when a strange man passes too closely on a dark sidewalk, or when a guy makes unwelcome physical contact or stands too near or leers in a way that makes her uncomfortable. Certainly I don't know what it's like to be constantly aware of potential threats in seemingly innocuous settings.
But for a moment I felt what I believe was a similar (though lesser) anxiety, and I think that it helps me understand why men should quit whining about the term "potential rapist." It's not a commentary on the individual male as much as it's a reasonable description of the awareness of real possible danger.[hr]As to whether or not I, as a man "understand rape?" Well, all I can say is that I can't speak on behalf of other men.
Beringia
(4,316 posts)
De Leonist
(225 posts)I think I might have a clue or two. Not that I want to mind you but well....sometimes life throws you a pretty painful curve ball. So as much as it hurts you deal as best you can.
I remember opening up about this during a sort of group therapy session back in middle school. My story, as bad as it was, was far from the worst and yet the other (at the time) boys in the group choose to spread it around school. The following ridicule was pretty heinous.
This making light of rape, molestation, and sexual assault starts pretty early for most young boys. That it follows into adulthood is tragic.
Female victims of rape have it bad and so do Male victims. Survivors of sexual assault of either gender in this country are constantly blamed and shamed.
Women and Girls because their "sluts" and Men and boys because their "fags" or "pussies".
It's rarely ever the victimizer who feels the brunt of the shaming, it's almost always the victim. This culture or false maschimo needs to fucking stop already.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)
Great post and it took a lot of courage and grit to write it. I couldn't have done it. I suggested to the OP that she should change the subject line as it is male-bashing and flame bait to boot. If it was educational flame-bait, to arouse outrage and get stories, I dunno. I never cared much for trying to pit men and women against each other. As if all women are angels. HAH. As a woman, I've had women use their power against me to hurt me and take more pleasure in it than any man ever did.
I did remind the thread that men can be raped and the OP was absurd.
Veilex
(1,555 posts) Raster
(20,998 posts)Sexual assault is NEVER sexual. The sexual aspect is just the thin veneer that masks the violent, hateful, scornful and demeaning dark center.
Men as well as women can be and are sexually assaulted. And you are correct, it is rarely the victimizer who feels the negative repercussions. It is usually the victims themselves.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)The first will ask someone who has experience with rape to tell them about their experiences. The second may also do this. The third will tell rape victims how they should feel, and will go around pretending to be an expert on rape victims despite having no experiences with rape.
I cringe when I see men demanding that women "not see them as a potential rapist," or get all offended when a woman doesn't want to talk to them in an area with no one around. Like usual for this type of guy, it's all about them.
