Saudi Blogger Sentenced To 1,000 Lashes May Not Withstand 2nd Round Of Flogging, Says Wife

[trumad]

A quick note to say that Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahyan walkked in the Paris March---Fucking hypocrites!

A Saudi Arabian blogger imprisoned for starting a liberal online forum to encourage discussion and debate in his country may not be able to withstand a second flogging this Friday, his wife says.

Raif Badawi was sentenced last May to 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes by a Saudi court for “insulting Islam.” Last Friday he endured the first round of lashes -- 50 strikes on the back of his body by a long, hard cane -- in a public flogging held in the city of Jiddah. This Friday, he will reportedly be subjected to a second round of 50 lashes.

“Raif told me he is in a lot of pain after his flogging, his health is poor and I’m certain he will not be able to cope with another round of lashes,” Badawi’s wife, Ensaf Haider, told Amnesty International.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/15/raif-badawi-saudi-blogger-flogging_n_6478520.html

[shenmue]

1. Forgiveness?

Anybody? Wanna try it? Maybe once?

[leftynyc]

2. 1000 lashes for a website

trying to encourage discussion and debate. May they all burn in hell (which I suddenly fervently wish I believed in).

[Bonx]

5. Everyone should have the right to a website, but

Ha, no buts. This is really awful.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. No doubt because the Omnipotent Deity whined and cried because it was insulted.

Of course, being not just Omnipotent, it is also Omniscient, so it already knew it was going to be insulted.

What's wrong with this picture?

[KansDem]

4. Once again, our allies...

...and friends and business partners of the Bush Family.

No surprise here...

[arcane1]

7. Has there been any official condemnation of this from our government?

If there has, I missed it.

[Boreal]

12. Just the usual bunch of nothing

The U.S. State Department has called for Saudi Arabia to “review Badawi’s case” and stop its “inhumane” punishment.

They are US allies and therefore absolved from all wrongdoing. Fuck, they chop off people's heads and other body parts in the public square.

[randys1]

26. You arent wrong, but I imagine the reason we continue as allies has to do with our survival

[Boreal]

32. The US doesn't need

The House of Saud for anything - unless you're talking the US as an aggressive militaristic neo colonial murder machine, then yes, the Saudis are extremely helpful in that quest!

[randys1]

33. I asked in another thread if we rely on them anymore for oil, I take it the answer is NO?

[Boreal]

37. All oil is sold on the international market

so I don't know how it's determined who is buying whose oil. That's one of reasons that the story floated about the Keystone pipeline is a lie (that we would be getting all of this oil from Canada). The tar sands oil will go to the Houston area for refining and then put on the international market and shipped off in tankers.

[LittleBlue]

6. Barbaric cruelty

Can't believe they were allowed to march in Paris. Makes the whole thing a political farce.

[Boreal]

38. It WAS a political farce

but I had no idea the Saudis showed up for the show. All the more absurd. I was very glad our president didn't go.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. Where are the 'I'm not sure where I come down on this' folks, the 'dont' condone murder but' crowd

needs to explain to us how Badawi had it coming. I wonder if the Pope thinks it is ok to lash this man for 'insulting religion'? I assume he does from his pro violence rhetoric.

[Boreal]

14. This was said after the massacre in Odessa

EU and the US have both supported the Kiev government’s operation. President Barack Obama called it “a move to restore order,” while EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton said "the state's monopoly on the legitimate use of violence needs to be respected."

http://rt.com/news/156596-moscow-kiev-bloodshed-responsible/

[stevenleser]

19. You're comparing a verified story to RT Bullshit? LMAO!

[SidDithers]

40. I wish there was a Vladimir Putin Group at DU...

just so I could trash it.

Sid

[HERVEPA]

55. Fuck your Russia Today trash

[Rex]

9. One of the last countries to outlaw slavery. In 1962.

Good friends with the BFEE.

[Bluenorthwest]

10. Founders of the African slave trade, they were the first in and the last out of that evil

nt

[Boreal]

15. I know the Arabs were deep into the slave trade

but I think it was the Dutch, followed by the British, who began running the slave ships. Sadly, slavery is a huge part of human history and still going on

[Bluenorthwest]

17. You are extremely incorrect. The Arabic Slave trade started in the 800's or so. Islam allowed

slavery, but not the enslavement of those who were already Muslim, so they took Africans as slaves. It was hundreds of years before the European/Atlantic slave trade joined the eastern trade. Look it up. Centuries, hundreds of thousands of captives, the works. First in, last out.

[Boreal]

20. Okay, thanks for that

I didn't know. I was thinking of the western/Atlantic slave trade with the Dutch and British but didn't even think further back. I'll bet Arab invaders took slaves wherever they went, like most invading hoards and colonizers.

[PeaceNikki]

29. Women are still slaves there.

[hifiguy]

11. Our eternal friends, the Saudis.

Scratch a lunatic Sunni group anywhere in the world and the Saudi money and connections burst out. Medieval barbarism, check. Intolerance, check. Sickening treatment of women, check.

With friends like the Saudis who needs enemies. Yet we continue to kneel and kiss the anus mundi because there is Money to be Made.

[Egnever]

13. I bet he will surprise her

Our bodies can take a lot more abuse than we think they can.

His sentence is barbaric none the less.

[Boreal]

16. I don't see how anyone can survive that

After fifty whips ones skin would be shredded. By the time it starts to heal then back for fifty more - for twenty weeks. A slow death sentence by torture.

[hifiguy]

39. Maybe Darth will stop in to visit his BFFs in the Saudi monarchy.

Sounds like it would be right up his alley.

[Boreal]

43. Well, sure, but

don't discount that our current president bowed to the Saudi king. Saudi Arabia is a solid part of the real axis of evil (US, UK, France, Jordan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar) who are responsible for using takfiri maniac terrorists as proxies in the war for global domination. The Saudis are integral to the economic warfare being waged, right now, against Russia. I'm worried about the next move they'll make as they claim to control the Chechen Wahabbi terrorists and a former Clinton administration official, Strobe Talbott, recently made a veiled threat, to Russia, to expect trouble from Chechnya. Yep, the Bush family are personal friends of these House of Saud monsters but it's US foreign and economic policy that has them in bed with Washington.

[randys1]

52. Should Obama have flipped him off?

[Bluenorthwest]

18. There are several DUers who I'd love to see comment on this. But they won't.

They are hypocrites and cowards.

[Boreal]

21. Why is that?

Is it because they support US foreign policy and the US's Gulf states partners in atrocities by extension?

[BainsBane]

25. You really don't get it

Opposing Islamophobia and disrespect of 1/3 of the world's population doesn't mean failure to acknowledge that Muslims do bad things. It is that not all Muslims do bad things. It is that not all Muslims are evil because of what you see on cable TV. The poor Algerian immigrants living in the ghettos of Paris are not exactly the same as the
Saudi royal family, but for you they are indistinguishable because your government has taught you Islam is evil.

Shall I blame you for the next mass shooting because you are American? Shall I blame you for most of the murders that occur around the world since some 85 percent are committed by men and you are male? If not, then why do you insist all of Islam and all Muslims are to blame for different acts committed by different governments and different people?

Add that to the fact you are finger wagging while living in the only industrialized, Western nation that still has the death penalty.

[Bluenorthwest]

27. I'm talking about the Saudi government and people on DU who have claimed it is just like San

Francisco, open gay lives and everything. It is you who suggests that the shit done by the House of Saud is shit done by 'Muslims' and that criticism of that government's abuses is the same and saying something about 'all Muslims'. That's pretty insulting to the Shiites, among other things.

[BainsBane]

31. Indeed it is not

Yet you were just in my thread denouncing all of Islam. So who did you have in mind when you said you wanted to hear from certain DUers? Are there many people here defending the House of Saud? I have not seen it.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. Excuse me, I am not religious, I think they are all of them bunk, but I have never 'denounced all of

Islam' in any way that I do not denounce religion in general. And I already said I would like to hear from the DUers who present Saudi Arabia as a fairly liberal place. I did not say they defend the House of Saud. I said they say gay life there is as open as Castro St, which is exactly what one DUer said.
I'd really, really like to see what you think is me 'denouncing all of Islam' in some xenophobic way. It is a religion that preaches against me, obviously I do not agree with it. I denounce that dogma fully, openly and with no reservations. That has nothing to do with human beings who are Muslim, which is a different subject than the school of thought called Islam.
You speak to me as if you think I am an inexperienced idiot. I have been to many Muslim holy places, I know many Muslims. I have a friend who is, please try to follow, a Muslim born Palestinian atheist who gave up his Israeli citizenship to become an American along with his fairly devout Muslim wife from Sudan. I have lived next to a Halal market. You misread and misjudge featuring a huge amount of basic cultural prejudice. Of the few famous American Muslims who have spoken out around the recent hubub, I have been to weddings with two, including the really super famous basketball Muslim. I just don't even know how to deal with your baseless characterization of my life, my experience and my knowledge.
Another one of you 'I'm afraid of this subject because it is new to me and I am not secure' posters angered about cartoon insults first accused me of knowing 'nothing of religions' and when I offered that one some background materials and travels, he then accused me of claiming to 'know all things'. Hard to win with a crowd working an agenda they do not understand and about which a year ago they knew not a bloody thing.
I have friends in Paris. Algerians even. Have you been to Paris? How many mosques have you been to? Your 'all images are forbidden' OP did not seem aware of Shiite views at all, and your comments about my criticism of the Kingdom again indicates you do not have a very complete view of the Muslim community, the Shiites are oppressed by the Saudis. For the most part, every single victim of the oppressive Gulf governments is a Muslim, expect for the imported labor perhaps, which is another issue for another time. You fail to grasp that advocacy for a Saudi blogger is advocacy for a Muslim. It is you who sees people advocating for a suffering Muslim and says 'but what about the rights of the man with the whip' thinking that you are being liberal, or 'tolerant of Muslims'. It's insipidly reductive. The victims of the House of Saud are Muslims. It's crazy making, what you are doing, it is not useful, not helpful and frankly stunning to see you advocate for Partriarchy so staunchly, out of the blue after all that rhetoric against it. Because you know, feminism is actually counted as an offense to Islam in the Kingdom. Can you apply your mind to this?
I'm a world fucking citizen, Bain. I'm not some hater of any group or anything like that. It is cheap and uncalled for that you would attempt to frame me as such. It is you who has the limited view here. No matter what the faith of the people involved, there is still right and wrong. You can not be ok with the patriarchy there and rail against it in general. It's just wrong. It is just wrong to punish gay people, or those who question authority or religion. That is always wrong. Not sometime s right.
You take this starkly Sunni, Wahhbist view, name it Islam and think that's informed but it is not. It's you grabbing onto to some narrative you think is important. But you lost your way.
Your views on that thread, amoral and frankly not very informed about world religions.
Posturing will not cut this mustard. I can and will have any fucking discussion anyone wishes about it. This arch insinuation routine is not only nasty, it is forbidden by Islam.
My positions are correct, informed and righteous. Yours are phrase book bullshit. Repeated from some Sunni nut you thought spoke for all Muslims.
So don't mistake the fact that I reject these theologies for some lack of knowledge about them or as some contempt for the people who are associated with them.
I will not respect nor fear your faith for you. It is your job to fear your faith. Feel free. But expect nothing from me and most assuredly do not expect to bully me with second rate poses and wiki photos of places I've been to.
I strongly object to your baseless characterizations of me and my opinions. But of course those who are so sensitive to insults toward them are always prone to say all sorts of shit about others.

[BainsBane]

47. I never claimed to know about your life

I only know what you write about issues. I've already responded to most of your points about Islam in the other thread. The main difference is you think denouncing all of Islam is essential to opposing homophobia. I will leave that decision to you, but when it comes to issues like feminism and equality more generally, that I have a problem with. When you call me a hypocrite for saying I dislike disrespect of Muslims, that tells me you see something wrong with not hating. The tenor of your posts toward me and many others also leave a definite impression of your emotional outlook.

I think it possible to denounce particular practices and aspects of a religion without indicting an entire faith, which you seem to think can be separated from the people who practice it. In your previous post you talked about religion "asking for respect." Religion doesn't ask for respect. People do. I already addressed that issue.

You think your positions are correct and informed because you can imagine no separation between yourself and absolute truth. That, i submit, is problematic. I have seen you make many errors of fact and refuse to read information that corrected you. I make plenty of mistakes and there is a lot I don't know, but I try to learn as I go along. I also don't have a problem acknowledging when I am wrong, which I have yet to see you do.

It is interesting you say people praise gay life in Saudi Arabia. That strikes me as a very strange argument for anyone to make. If so, it would seem your anger should be directed at them rather then me. Let's just say I don't find your explanation terribly convincing.
The heated nature of your reply tells me I hit a nerve in my last, very brief post. Perhaps you should reflect on that rather than proclaiming how you already know everything.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. I did not address you in this thread. You addressed me. You also mischaracterize what I say

and that is very much not appreciated.
Tomorrow in Saudi Arabia they will give that blogger his next 50 lashes. That should be criticized in every possible way, including any way that would anger those doing it to him.
You stand with the beaten man or with the man with the lash. Those are the actual choices. That is what is really going on here. Your rhetoric is about all of the wrong things. The blogger or the lash? The critic or he who punishes the critic?
Pick one and act accordingly.

[Warren DeMontague]

49. You mean like how Elliot Rodger was the fault of "#Yesallmen"?

http://flavorwire.com/459699/yes-all-men-every-man-needs-to-understand-internalized-misogyny-and-male-violence

[BainsBane]

50. We agreed to not waste each others time

and you're violating that agreement. You clearly have no intention of understanding my views, so explaining them would be a colossal waste of time, little Kiss aside.

I will only point out I did not post about the issue that resulted in the murders. My point was different, and you are either unable or unwilling to understand it. I used to think these repeated misunderstandings were due to the former, but I'm starting to consider it may well be the latter.

Anyway, our resident herbivore insisted those killings were the fault of feminists who wouldn't put out.

[Warren DeMontague]

53. We did?

Anyway, I'm addressing a general philosophical point, namely the folks vociferously defending the proposition of blaming the Isla Vista shooting on shit like Seth Rogen movies one month--- then claiming that it's unfair to suggest that the Charlie Hebdo massacre had anything to do with radical Islam, the next.

The cognitive dissonance there just blows me away.

[BainsBane]

56. Well, then talk to those people

because I am not them. I cannot answer for arguments I don't make. I don't know a thing about Seth Rogen movies. And BTW, I don't believe people are saying that radical Islam had nothing to do with the murders, but that all Muslims are not radicals. Islam is not one thing. I happen to work with a number of Muslims and live in a community with a sizable Muslim population, and I have only met one radical. He scared the shit out of me because I heard him speak a few days after sitting across from him at a dinner party, but I have met scores of other Muslims before and since who were totally cool.

[Fumesucker]

22. Most of the Saudi elite are Western educated these days, the best schools

They know better than what they are doing, they've experienced a more egalitarian atmosphere and you know what..

They hate it, I have my hypotheses as to why but it's clear they hate egalitarian society.

[Boreal]

34. So, what is your hypotheses?

I'm very curious.

I was just thinking back on the 70s when there was obviously some official policy of shipping Saudis into the US. I knew a bunch of them, all students. I'd not sure who was responsible for that but I think it may have had something to do with the Saudis buying US debt and accepting the USD as the medium of exchange for oil (the pertrodollar).

[polly7]

51. What Drives Blasphemy Charges in the Middle East? (It's Not Just Religion)

Using religion as “a pretext for settling political scores”

Whitaker indeed points to a broader trend across the Arab world. Saudi Arabia and Tunisia, which differ widely both politically and culturally, have seen similar cases in recent years.

Under a theocratic system of government, like that of Saudi Arabia, the lines that separate the religious from the political are blurred. As a result, those who question the status quo or criticize the authorities can face serious accusations on religious (not political) grounds.

How does a regime get rid of political opponents and critics in countries where religion plays an important role in the lives of the majority? One way is to throw them in jail and say they insulted Islam and its Prophet. That way (almost) no one will come to their rescue.

Last spring, Saudi Arabia sentenced blogger Raif Badawi to 10 years in prison and 1000 lashes for “insulting Islam” after he launched Saudi Liberals, a website hosting content critical of the country’s senior religious figures and its religious police. The site did not focus on Islam per se, but rather on specific political and religious figures and their actions. Nevertheless, Badawi was convicted of “insulting Islam."

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/01/08/what-drives-blasphemy-charges-in-the-middle-east-its-not-just-religion/

What are your thoughts on this? I just got it in an email today and thought it was interesting and made some sense. Though many everyday religious followers absolutely do feel that these punishments are 'deserved', I fear the punishments in the name of religion by those in positions of power who are so afraid of losing it, are just going to get worse in some of these places.

[Boreal]

58. I'm in agreement with it

“Arab rulers act as if Islam is in danger…maybe they are afraid of the collapse of their thrones,” Tunisian blogger Khaoula Frehcichi wrote in a blog post. “They know very well that criticising the religious institution is the first step to unsettle their regimes.”

I'm surprised he used the word "maybe" because it's most definitely the case - probably more so in some Muslim countries than others. With the Saudis, where you have a so called "royal" family who cooperated with foreigners to sell off local resources and get rich, themselves, in the process, using knuckle dragging fanatics (who are probably rewarded) to do the dirty work of oppressing the population makes sense. It's a hierarchy of slaves, if you will. The fanatics keep their favored positions by keeping everybody else down but those fanatics are slaves to that role lest THEY end up with their heads getting chopped off.

Here's the thing, though: Most governments work like this. Not using religious fanatics but the hierarchy that keeps those lower down the ladder under control. In other countries, bogus prosecutions are used to get, destroy or punish political enemies in order to protect the corrupt establishment. Catherine Austin Fitts was attacked/prosecuted like that for daring to expose criminality in HUD. Certainly nothing to the degree of Saudi Arabia, though, which is really barbaric, like something out of ancient times.

You can bet your ass that the United States, UK and Netherlands have always approved of this Saudi method to keep any opposition under control. Not only would a free and independent Arabian public threaten the House of Saud but some very lucrative multinational oil business.

[polly7]

59. I was surprised at that too .... it seems like a no-brainer to me.

They are keeping millions of people trembling at the thought of retribution in the name of religion, when in fact, it's probably a hell of a lot more to do with the fear of losing control ... in a world that's got the advantage of social media, information at their fingertips never before available to their own. Karma's going to deliver some heavy lashes of its own when all people realize just what it is they're doing, and why. imho.

And ... you're right, it's nothing new. Thanks for the reply.

The Badawi case is a cruel message to the people of Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabi Salafist dictatorship fears for its existence. There is unrest in the Saudi Kingdom, which takes place behind closed doors. On 5 January, jihadist fighters from Iraq entered Saudi Arabia and killed three border guards. The rebellion in Yemen also represents a major threat to the country. The future of the Saudi dictatorship looks grim. An “Islamic State” without the control over the holy places of Islam doesn’t make much sense. The Saudi leadership is ailing and calcified. But real hope for reform is not in sight because the line of succession takes place in camera. A successor can only be a Wahhabi fundamentalist from the house of Saud.

.......The most sickening hypocrisy was the participation of the Saudi ambassador in the protest march against the killing of 17 Frenchmen in Paris. At the same time, Badawi received 50 slashes in public. One female protester confronted the ambassador in Paris with a sign “Je suis Raif Badawi”.

Lashes of Expression in Saudi Arabia
by Ludwig Watzal / January 14th, 2015

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/01/lashes-of-expression-in-saudi-arabia/

[JI7]

46. because they don't want to Give up their own

Position in the country ?

[Octafish]

23. 20 X 50 = Death Sentence

Nice people, our friends.

[cpwm17]

24. When I was growing up, the news media and others called Saudi Arabia a moderate Arab state.

It was of course propaganda, promoted by several special interests. The secular Arab nations were supposed to be the radicals. It was because they didn't play well with Washington DC.

[Boreal]

35. And those secular Arab states

were the ones scheduled for take down by the Project for a New American Century. They pose(d) the strongest opposition to Israel plus AngloAmerican hegemony. The exception being Iran which is not Arab nor secular.

[cpwm17]

42. That's certainly true and you understand who the propagandists are. nt

[Boreal]

45. Yep, I do

and there's a bunch of them right on DU.

[randys1]

28. Islam is the state religion there.

I wonder what the percentage of the population in that country agrees with this punishment.

Cuz this is the kind of shit that makes it ALL about religion, which is tribalism, etc., but this needs to go away and now

[PeaceNikki]

30. The prosecution demanded that Raif Badawi be tried for apostasy, which could have carried a death

death sentence. And these lashes could very well kill him.

This is the exact same ideology that spawned the attacks in Paris. Denying the involvement of the ideology is ridiculous and dangerous. The idea that disrespecting Islam is a crime worthy of death is certainly not universally held by all (or likely even most) Muslims but it's a FAR fucking cry from completely unique.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/reuters/2014/05/07/world/middleeast/07reuters-saudi-activist-sentence.html?referrer=

In a separate ruling on Tuesday, the court also convicted the administrator of a website on charges of supporting Internet forums hostile to the state and which promoted demonstrations, Sabq reported on Wednesday. It said he was sentenced to six years in jail and a 50,000 riyal fine.

...
Also in April, a Saudi court sentenced an unidentified activist to six years in jail on charges including taking part in illegal demonstrations and organizing women's protests.

Another was sentenced to three years in jail for spreading lies against King Abdullah and inciting the public against him.

[hifiguy]

41. Excellent post

As I noted, scratch any Sunni fundamentalist group in the world and the Saudi money and connections are just below the surface. Worst Country In The World. Yet we stoop to kiss their festering, medieval behinds in the name of Money.

[LeftishBrit]

44. Amnesty International have a petition against this

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/

[Denzil_DC]

57. Thanks.

I've tried to sign a few times, but the intertubes are a bit screwed up by the weather here recently, so tonight's the first time I've been successful.

Might be worth making that link an OP?

[madokie]

54. Barbaric to say the least

[libodem]

60. It is no less than torture

And should be held as such. Disgusting. Barbaric. Sadistic.