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Fri Jan 16, 2015, 08:24 AM

If you have a strong moral objection to criticizing, satirizing or mocking deeply held beliefs

why are you posting on DU?

The entire point of this site is to rally people with like beliefs, point out what is wrong with Republican ideology and mock, satirize and criticize those whose very deeply held beliefs differ from our very deeply held beliefs.

Serious question: what's so very different about doing the same with religion? Why is it so taboo to some to do the same with religion?

Religion is deeply entrenched in politics and that's a serious problem for many of us. In fact, the bulk of us would probably refrain from most of it if it weren't.

Discuss...

187 replies, 27318 views

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Reply If you have a strong moral objection to criticizing, satirizing or mocking deeply held beliefs (Original post)
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 OP
DLevine Jan 2015 #1
peacebird Jan 2015 #3
TheKentuckian Jan 2015 #184
Fumesucker Jan 2015 #2
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #5
bvf Jan 2015 #8
dumbcat Jan 2015 #67
bvf Jan 2015 #74
alp227 Jan 2015 #163
MattSh Jan 2015 #126
bvf Jan 2015 #131
The CCC Jan 2015 #55
BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #97
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #99
BlueCaliDem Jan 2015 #104
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #112
ieoeja Jan 2015 #7
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #11
ieoeja Jan 2015 #15
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #18
B Calm Jan 2015 #4
whathehell Jan 2015 #6
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #9
whathehell Jan 2015 #46
lame54 Jan 2015 #73
whathehell Jan 2015 #75
ucrdem Jan 2015 #10
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #12
Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #19
Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #91
Jappleseed Jan 2015 #13
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #17
Jappleseed Jan 2015 #23
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #24
Jappleseed Jan 2015 #25
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #26
zeemike Jan 2015 #35
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #39
zeemike Jan 2015 #48
Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #57
wavesofeuphoria Jan 2015 #61
zeemike Jan 2015 #70
Skittles Jan 2015 #149
greiner3 Jan 2015 #153
BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #151
whathehell Jan 2015 #77
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #80
whathehell Jan 2015 #83
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #20
Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #21
Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #52
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #22
Surya Gayatri Jan 2015 #28
treestar Jan 2015 #69
whathehell Jan 2015 #87
Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #101
treestar Jan 2015 #105
Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #107
Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #129
Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #135
treestar Jan 2015 #182
Warren Stupidity Jan 2015 #128
treestar Jan 2015 #181
Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #100
BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #152
treestar Jan 2015 #183
Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #185
Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #118
Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #14
Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #168
woo me with science Jan 2015 #16
freebrew Jan 2015 #33
Duppers Jan 2015 #88
smirkymonkey Jan 2015 #148
BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #154
NancyDL Jan 2015 #176
Surya Gayatri Jan 2015 #27
brer cat Jan 2015 #29
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #30
brer cat Jan 2015 #37
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #38
brer cat Jan 2015 #41
classykaren Jan 2015 #68
Skittles Jan 2015 #147
BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #165
Skittles Jan 2015 #166
BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #169
OnlinePoker Jan 2015 #180
BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #186
brer cat Jan 2015 #170
Skittles Jan 2015 #172
brer cat Jan 2015 #174
Skittles Jan 2015 #175
Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #51
djean111 Jan 2015 #109
Rex Jan 2015 #31
Silent3 Jan 2015 #59
Rex Jan 2015 #138
Silent3 Jan 2015 #142
Borchkins Jan 2015 #32
Roy Rolling Jan 2015 #34
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #40
wavesofeuphoria Jan 2015 #63
Duppers Jan 2015 #90
Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #92
SidDithers Jan 2015 #36
mountain grammy Jan 2015 #58
BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #155
BeanMusical Jan 2015 #179
sinkingfeeling Jan 2015 #42
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #43
MoonRiver Jan 2015 #44
Tommy_Carcetti Jan 2015 #45
Prism Jan 2015 #47
Tommy_Carcetti Jan 2015 #53
Prism Jan 2015 #56
whathehell Jan 2015 #89
Prism Jan 2015 #103
whathehell Jan 2015 #108
Prism Jan 2015 #111
MatthewStLouis Jan 2015 #62
lame54 Jan 2015 #72
Jesus Malverde Jan 2015 #49
pipi_k Jan 2015 #50
olddots Jan 2015 #54
ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #60
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #65
ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #76
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #78
ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #81
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #82
ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #84
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #85
ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #86
Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #66
ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #79
Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #96
ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #98
treestar Jan 2015 #64
Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #71
treestar Jan 2015 #94
nolabels Jan 2015 #93
ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #102
nolabels Jan 2015 #113
ismnotwasm Jan 2015 #114
nolabels Jan 2015 #136
ND-Dem Jan 2015 #95
MisterP Jan 2015 #150
Duppers Jan 2015 #106
Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2015 #110
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #115
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #116
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #117
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #119
LittleBlue Jan 2015 #120
MellowDem Jan 2015 #121
LittleBlue Jan 2015 #123
MellowDem Jan 2015 #125
LittleBlue Jan 2015 #130
MellowDem Jan 2015 #144
alp227 Jan 2015 #171
sabrina 1 Jan 2015 #122
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #124
kelliekat44 Jan 2015 #187
SidDithers Jan 2015 #127
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #132
SidDithers Jan 2015 #134
gollygee Jan 2015 #133
cpwm17 Jan 2015 #140
TeamPooka Jan 2015 #137
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #139
Corruption Inc Jan 2015 #141
colsohlibgal Jan 2015 #143
oberliner Jan 2015 #145
NanceGreggs Jan 2015 #146
jtuck004 Jan 2015 #164
BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #156
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #157
BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #162
uriel1972 Jan 2015 #158
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #161
alp227 Jan 2015 #159
uppityperson Jan 2015 #160
PeaceNikki Jan 2015 #167
uppityperson Jan 2015 #173
C Moon Jan 2015 #177
blkmusclmachine Jan 2015 #178

Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 08:38 AM

1. I agree with you.

I see nothing wrong with criticizing an ideology that wants to take away my rights, or anyone else's rights.

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Response to DLevine (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:04 AM

3. Exactly. I usually post mocking blatant hypocrisy in various situations rather than blanket

Condemnation. But I fully understand the desire to vent sometimes, it is so sad to watch our lawmakers pass religious "freedom" laws in a sideways attempt to codify fundy beliefs (or more likely to appease their fundy followers)
And I use the term fundy intentionally. I work with a biblical literalist. She is my boss. There is nothing rational, no grey. It is black and white. Except she parses out bits that don't support her desired belief, and she picks and chooses WHICH bible is the right one. A total fundy, who sees the bible as something to berate and belittle others with, and condem whole classes of people. (Glbt)
I mention that Christian is a Christ follower, has she read the sermon on the mount, she constantly reverts to old testament. Not Christ, at all. Fundy. About as unchristian as one can be. Sorry for venting. Fwiw I use fundy not Christian because I know a lot of good Christians who walk the walk and forgo the self righteous talk.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:45 PM

184. A Branch Levitican

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 08:41 AM

2. We even mock each other

In fact I sometimes think we mock each other more than we do anyone else.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:12 AM

5. Good point.

I dunno, to me it's hypocritical to say or imply that religion is off limits.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:21 AM

8. Agreed.

 

Everything--everything--should be open to discussion here.

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Response to bvf (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:32 AM

67. No, it shouldn't

We should not be open to discussion on the economic benefits of slavery, or racism, or sexism. Do we allow discussion of the advantages of right wing republican ideas? Do we allow David Duke to post here and discuss his viewpoints? Cheney? Shrub? There is a whole section of the Terms of Service of things we will not discuss.

No bigoted hate speech.
Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic. To be clear: This includes any post which states opposition to full equal rights for gays and lesbians; it also includes any post asserting disloyalty by Jewish Americans, claiming nefarious influence by Jews/Zionists/Israel, advocating the destruction of the state of Israel, or arguing that Holocaust deniers are just misunderstood. In determining what constitutes bigotry, please be aware that we cannot know what is in anyone's heart, and we will give members the benefit of the doubt, when and only when such doubt exists.

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #67)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:41 AM

74. I stand corrected.

 

That was rash of me.

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Response to dumbcat (Reply #67)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:33 AM

163. Exactly. We are a PROGRESSIVE board. We SCRUTINIZE reactionary nonsense and nonsense in general.

There are 1000s of other places where right wing trash is welcome. Like a website with the F.R. initials.

Being open minded doesn't mean your brain should fall off.

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Response to bvf (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:51 PM

126. Though it seems many people forget that there may be consequences....

Some pretty nasty consequences, in fact...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026093391

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Response to MattSh (Reply #126)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 03:33 PM

131. Thanks.

 

Fairly dense read, but will revisit.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:13 AM

55. Good point.

Agreed, So should anti-religion.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:20 PM

97. Criticizing even mocking religion should never be off limits. Criticizing and mocking PEOPLE who

hold those deeply held beliefs should be.

Attack the message, not the messenger. But all too often that's what any conversation on religion and beliefs devolve into. Let's not get the two confused.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:22 PM

99. Yeah, though everyone is guilty of sometimes crossing lines.

Like I posted downthread:

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #99)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:29 PM

104. LOVE it. It's what I believe, too.

NO idea is above scrutiny, and no people are beneath dignity. I love that phrase.

Thanks, PeaceNikki! Love your avatar, too.

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Response to BlueCaliDem (Reply #104)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:42 PM

112. Thanks. I had the supreme pleasure of being in a NOH8 photo shoot a few years ago.

It was awesome.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:20 AM

7. If you'd paid closer attention maybe you would have noticed we mostly just mock you.

 




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Response to ieoeja (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:24 AM

11. So you're a Fumesuckeraphobe?

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:31 AM

15. Unofficially. I found the meetings kind of silly so stopped going. n/t

 

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Response to ieoeja (Reply #15)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:33 AM

18. :)

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:07 AM

4. BINGO! k&r

 

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Response to whathehell (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:23 AM

9. I replied to her thread. I was going to rewrite it and replace "religion" with

"Political ideology" but I think I would have gotten bored after the first 74,000 words.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:00 AM

46. That's nice.

It didn't see it in a thread of over 100 responses, so I'm afraid I just got bored.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:37 AM

73. I doubt it

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Response to lame54 (Reply #73)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:53 AM

75. Whatever floats your boat, Rig

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:23 AM

10. Sneering at the poor and rubbing their faces in it is not what DU is all about. nt

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:25 AM

12. Since when are religious organizations "the poor"?

That's ridiculous.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:41 AM

19. So you claim the Saudis are 'the poor'? To criticize billionaire autocrats is to sneer at the poor?

 

Today in Saudi Arabia a blogger will get his second set of 50 lashes, first set last Friday. His 'crime' was being critical of the religious clerics.
The actual question is this: Do you stand with the blogger being beaten, or do you stand with the man with the whip?
The rest of this discussion is distraction.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:15 PM

91. Oh, darn. You figured out our nefarious plot!

 

Curses!

Yes, sneering at the meddling, repressive, misogynistic Roman Catholic Church, which literally sits on piles of gold, is EXACTLY the same as sneering at the poor and rubbing their faces in it. Same with sneering at the theocratic Saudi royalty who run the show!

You're just too darn smart for us to get away with this anymore!

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:28 AM

13. My question to you is if you would not do it to a person face to face.

 

Then why do it here? I find your avatar to be utterly ironic by the way.

Another issue is that there are religions that are off limits here. There is no way someone could get by satirizing the Jewish faith by using racial stereotypes and isolated cruelty. Could you image a cartoon showing all of the Jewish faithful bombing a family for the heck of it? It would be canned and the poster would be pizza'd in a heart beat.

It is that selective application that proves this hatred to be nothing more than bigotry. If you want to go there, that is ok. For myself as a person who has spent a lifetime as a minority, it just does not seem that attractive.

Confirmed Atheist and Redskin,
Jappleseed.

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Response to Jappleseed (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:32 AM

17. My avatar... ironic?

Bullshit. I am a strong ally of LGBT and women and it's the primary reason why I criticize religion and its barbaric tenets.

Also criticism does not equal "hate" so I reject your framing.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:47 AM

23. It is easier to reject than to consider.

 

That is for sure.

If I am reading your post correctly you find fighting hate with hate to be a tenet that you follow. Well since there is no hope to change your mind on this, or at least to get you to consider what others are saying then I wish you Peace Nikki.

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Response to Jappleseed (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:48 AM

24. Again - criticism is not the same as hate. I reject your framing.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:54 AM

25. Last post from me on this.

 

But your OP is about Criticism, mocking, and satirizing. Not even a cursory mention of constructive criticism just plain criticism.

Anyways hope you find a way to one day give to others what you are demanding of them.

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Response to Jappleseed (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:55 AM

26. Still *totally* not hate.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:43 AM

35. What would you say if someone criticized LGBT or women?

Would you not claim it was because of hate?...and would that post not be banned?

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Response to zeemike (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:50 AM

39. I bite back when conservatives AND religions threaten autonomy and human rights.

I could give a shit if they 'criticize'. The issue I have stems from the religious trying to push their beliefs into our society and laws.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:04 AM

48. Well so do I.

I don't want ANY religion or any anti religion trying to push their belief into our laws.
But no one here to my knowledge has ever suggested that...and I would bite back if they did.
So this is a straw man.

But there is a double standard at play here...some groups cannot be criticized at all and will be called hate speech, and some can be criticized at will and the posts will never be hidden.

If you want peace then examine your own self first because that is where it starts.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #48)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:15 AM

57. And yet when Rick Warren called LGBT people some terrible names and got rewarded by being

 

invited to the Inaugural as the official Minister, many member of DU harshly criticized LGBT posters for objecting to the denigrating language of Rick Warren, who had called us all pedophiles the month before. We were told that to object to public insults was 'poutrage' and that we just 'wanted our pony'.
Today, when some stone cold murderers declare that they were 'offended at denigrating language, many members of DU have vast empathy for them and instead of saying it is 'poutrage' to object to denigrating language they say that while they don't condone murder, anyone who insults others should expect a strong reaction....so for the killers, empathy. For denigrated LGBT people, insults and mockery.
That's just the facts. Sorry if they bother you, but the people who taunted LGBT for objecting to insults from religion who are now saying religion has the right to object to insults even with violence are wandering all over the ethical meadows, hither and yon, taking one position with great certainty one day, the opposite position with equal certainty the next.

And yes, that is a double standard. A glaring, homophobia shaped double standard.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #57)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:27 AM

61. !!! +1

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #57)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:35 AM

70. Well I know that when people start dragging up old hurt feelings

As a reason to do it themselves the conversation is over...and only the fight remains.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #57)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 12:22 AM

149. AGREED

I was sickened by DUers defending Rick Warren's inclusion in the inagural

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Response to Skittles (Reply #149)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 12:47 AM

153. " I was sickened by DUers defending Rick Warren's inclusion in the inagural"

 

I was too, and unfortunately it was mostly the same old members who go around poking sticks in most of the other DU members, but that's a whole other story.



BTW, most of 'those' DU members seem to always be on my block list; just sayin.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #57)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 12:44 AM

151. And those same people who are saying religion must not be criticized

posted the equality avatar you have for months! Such hypocrisy is glaringly obvious.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:57 AM

77. No, but vicious, sneering ridicule bears a remarkable resemblance to it.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #77)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:59 AM

80. Still *totally* not hate.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #80)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:00 PM

83. Still I *totally* disagree.

Hate can be expressed in many ways.

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Response to Jappleseed (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:45 AM

20. Also

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Response to Jappleseed (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:45 AM

21. I find is worth noting that many of the posters who defend the worst of religious acts using

 

'us and them' tropes claim to be 'long time atheists' and such. I have to say, I do not believe that is the case.
I note for example that you snark at the OP's pro equality avatar, but that you yourself don't speak any support for LGBT people or for the equality of women in all things. 'I am an atheist' you say but your rhetoric is divisively religious in nature.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:06 AM

52. I do not ascribe it to religion because the absence thereof would remove the effect.

As you correctly observed those claiming an atheist worldview can have the same predilection.

I think the phenomenon we are confronting isn't one of ideology but rather tribalism.

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Response to Jappleseed (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:47 AM

22. And...

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Response to Jappleseed (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:11 AM

28. Well, I for one can imagine a political cartoon skewering Benyamin Netanyahu

 

as a pompous, bulbous windbag, with exaggerated ugly features, exploiting his Jewish faith and manipulating religious Israelis for political gain.

Yes, I can easily see that in my mind's eye. For sure...

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Response to Jappleseed (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:33 AM

69. Yes. It's like bigotry and hate are OK so long as directed at the "right"

group.

Liberals are not really supposed to be that way. It is how we are different from the fundies. Naturally it is human nature to want to make fun of the more extreme of them, in return for the things they would say about those not religious. But while they will not tolerate us, we tolerate them. It's one of the main differences. We live and let live. They want to control everyone.

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Response to treestar (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:04 PM

87. Ding!..We have a winner!

You are correct.

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Response to treestar (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:26 PM

101. So when we criticize Republicans is that bigotry and hate too? Should we refrain from that?

 

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #101)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:32 PM

105. Of course not.

Criticizing is not mocking and most Republicans are quite deserving of mockery.

It's not either/or, and we all decide for ourselves.



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Response to treestar (Reply #105)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:34 PM

107. I don't see how mixing supernatural beliefs into something makes it off limits.

 

If anything, it makes it less deserving of protection from criticism, because there's no basis for the conviction other than "faith" in clearly fictional/made-up nonsense.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #107)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 03:00 PM

129. No if you believe made up nonsense is real, that is MORE deserving of respect.

 

I don't see how that is confusing at all.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #129)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 04:05 PM

135. Good point, Warren. Thank you for the clarity.

 

Also, if someone like, really, really, REALLY believes something religious, like, they double super-duper believe it times infinity, then their belief is the most protected and deserving of respect, like EVER!

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #107)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:39 PM

182. Usually DU is all about letting the offended decide what is offensive

So what is the difference here. There has always been religion and few people will go along with the idea it is made up nonsense. I guess it is a matter of societal acceptance - we'd make fun of a cult that thought that Michael Jackson was God, because it has only a few people in it. It's a matter of whether you want to be seen by society as a person who gets along or one who wants to be isolated.

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Response to treestar (Reply #69)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 03:00 PM

128. I am totally bigoted against homophobic idiots. I hate them too.

 

I'm also bigoted against racist asswipes. For example the racist geezer who runs the only gas station in my town opined to me on the day that somebody took a pot shot at the white house a few years ago, that it was too bad the he didn't "kill that n*". Yup, that is what he said. Right out loud. In public. In front of customers. Or actually a former customer. I absolutely won't use his services anymore. Fuck that piece of shit. I am totally bigoted against his sorry racist old ass.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #128)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:37 PM

181. I submit that it is not bigotry

It is because they are intolerant that you are opposing them. Don't give into their claims that they are being discriminated against. They've managed to twist that argument into something if you're going to call yourself a bigot over that.

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Response to Jappleseed (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:25 PM

100. Are the anti-women policies of major religions also bigotry?

 

If not, why not?

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #100)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 12:46 AM

152. Oh no no no!

When religious people do it, it's ok. Go Pope!

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #100)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:40 PM

183. The religions didn't cause that

the society did. Primitive societies developed over time roles for the sexes and the religions may reflect that.

We're never going to now as history is full of religions. Yet other institutions limited women, too. Religion isn't alone on that.

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Response to treestar (Reply #183)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:45 PM

185. Ahh, that's right, nothing is ever the fault of religions.

 

And, it's not like religion was made up by humans for the purposes of controlling other humans. No, no, no. Nothing could be further from the truth, of course!

How could I forget that?

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Response to Jappleseed (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 01:28 PM

118. There are things still totally off limits even for precious free speech and satire in America.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:29 AM

14. I think most of those people just can't stand the idea of LGBT people and women having anyone

 

speak in our favor. They seek to paint pro gay sentiment as 'blasphemy and racism' because they despise LGBT people. The very same lot who is affecting great 'offense' about cartoons about a religion they do not profess employ plenty of extreme rhetoric around their own issues. They do not hesitate to paint entire groups of people in a negative light, ever.
The folks who spent years telling LGBT people to endure all insults and not 'want a pony' who then declare that some other group must never be criticized AND declare that perhaps criticism of that group does excuse violence are employing a double standard that indicates a total contempt for LGBT people.
People who have defended anti gay rhetoric out of various religious figures, out of Rick Warren (who attacked gay people in vile terms days before all of this Party cheered for him and prayed with him, our new President called the hate speaker 'brother') and the rest of them who now declare that is is always just wrong and terrible to use any form of critical language about others are homophobes and hypocrites.
Because they say we must accept denigrating language out of religion, but religion must never be subjected to the same treatment it gives to others. Because they can find no empathy for insulted gay people but they have floods of empathy for stone cold murderers who claim to be religious.
It's just contempt for LGBT people, pure and simple.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #14)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:43 AM

168. That's a whole lot of assumptions & straw men all balled up together.

I was one of the most vocal people criticizing the inclusion of Rick Warren in the inauguration - e.g. here and here (as well as an advocate for same gender marriage long before most people on DU jumped on the band wagon e.g. here (one of many times I explained why civil unions were not synonymous with marriage - as the tax follow-up to Windsor proved), and in real life I have been active in the realm of LGBT rights on both the state and national level for 30 years. Our adoption case was the first appellate case in our state, and our marriage is the first in our faith community - two decades ago.

You are way off base when you categorize everyone who is not reciting the "je suis Charlie" meme as having spent years opposing LGBT rights.

It has nothing to do with contempt for LGBT people. I just don't happen to believe that the "je suis Charlie" meme is a constructive response to the murders.

That does not mean I have empathy for the murders - beyond the empathy I have for any human being. It means that I believe part of what is required to be more than just increasingly isolated and polarized tribes with violence a hairs-breadth away is to stop being offensive merely for the sake of offending. The world is a very small place, filled with a multitude of diverse people. We can choose to denigrate and mock others (as people have done to the LGBT community for pretty much forever), or we can choose to try to understand each other and be part of figuring out how to live together peacefully. The latter is, as far as I'm concerned, the more progressive response.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:31 AM

16. There is a creeping, deliberate authoritarian movement in this nation.

It needs to be mocked to death.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:40 AM

33. +1000 nt

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:08 PM

88. same here..

+1000

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 12:13 AM

148. I could not have stated that any better.

 

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 12:48 AM

154. And obviously on this board

Wow.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 03:56 AM

176. Unfortunately, mocking isn't going to do the job.

It doesn't accomplish anything. What's lacking among progressives is unity. Mocking doesn't facilitate that.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:59 AM

27. Aye, there's the rub and the crux of the conflict:

 

"Religion is deeply entrenched in politics and that's a serious problem for many of us."

CHARLIE, to my knowledge, does not gratuitously mock any religion or creed purely for the sake of ridiculing a particular code of beliefs and its followers.

Their editorial mission is to skewer the egregious "amalgame" as the French call it, between religion and politics.

They even have a verb in French for this regrettable phenomenon: amalgamer!

j'amalgame, nous amalgamons
t'amalgames, vous amalgamez
il/elle amalgame, ils amalgament


"NON l'amalgame !" is all over the French-speaking press right now.

CHARLIE are political satirists and it is in the political arena that they wield their rapier of parody and caricature.

Enfin, soyons clair sur ce point !

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:26 AM

29. So DU is not just for progressive, liberal democrats...

it is for, and only for, people who share YOUR deeply held beliefs.

DU should be a uniting force to be a counter point to republicans, not an arena where bullies run off people who don't adhere to every single view of one group of posters. The diversity of people on DU is a big part of the appeal of this forum.

To disagree is not the same as mocking and ridiculing someone's beliefs. I have never seen a DU OP that attempted to convert non believers. I have never seen a post where believers ridicule atheists. I have never seen a DU post where believers say it is ok to discriminate against people of color or gays or any other group because of their religion.

To use "freedom of speech" as an excuse to demean others is intellectually dishonest and entirely self-serving.

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Response to brer cat (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:28 AM

30. You see mocking and ridiculing of conservative ideology all the time. It's the core of our existence

Why is that acceptable and the same with religion as the subject not?

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:46 AM

37. This is not a conservative site.

Equating democrats of faith with conservative ideology is insulting.

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Response to brer cat (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:48 AM

38. Equating ideology I find horrible with ideology I find horrible is fair.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:52 AM

41. That certainly makes good sense. LOL

Have a nice day.

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Response to brer cat (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:33 AM

68. +1000

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Response to brer cat (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:29 PM

147. if your faith endorses misogyny and homophobia HOW is it different?

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Response to Skittles (Reply #147)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:35 AM

165. I'd like to see the answer too

The offended people of faith in these threads have yet to explain how their support for misogynist, homophobic, racist institutions is somehow not misogynist, homophobic, and racist.

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #165)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:37 AM

166. they CANNOT defend it

which is EXACTLY why they start the bullshit ATTACKING THE PERSON as opposed to the religion bullshit meme

it's HYPOCRISY AND COWARDICE

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Response to Skittles (Reply #166)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:48 AM

169. I find it INCREDIBLE the world's largest religions with billions of members needs kid gloves

I mean shit, let's talk about the Buddhists! I mean, they've done....wait...um...shit, they haven't done anything lately in the name of Buddha.

By the rationale that "faith" or "deeply held beliefs" are not to criticized, then the KKK, NAMBLA, and Nazis cannot be criticized. And I have a deeply held suspicion that the board monitors only really mean THEIR beliefs.

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #169)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 08:47 AM

180. I guess it depends on what you call lately...this happened last year but began earlier

U.N.: Dozens of Muslims massacred by Buddhists in Burma

The United Nations has confirmed that at least 48 Muslims appear to have been killed when Buddhist mobs attacked a village in an isolated corner of western Burma, a massacre that has been the vehemently denied by the government since it was first reported by The Associated Press just over a week ago.

Presidential spokesman Ye Htut said he "strongly objects" to the U.N. claims and that the facts and figures were "totally wrong."

Burma, a predominantly Buddhist nation of 60 million people which is also known as Myanmar, has been grappling with sectarian violence since June 2012.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/un-dozens-of-rohingya-muslims-massacred-by-buddhists-in-rakhine-burma/

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Response to OnlinePoker (Reply #180)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 03:13 PM

186. It sounds like a rather poorly written article to be sure

I guess they are assuming that it is driven by religion, but I think they are just using the default because the majority of the population is Buddhist. If they had shouted verses from a book or a rallying cry, then I would think it would qualify. But from what I know, there is nothing in Buddhist texts that advocates any kind of violence.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #147)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:49 AM

170. Faith is my personal belief,

and I can assure you I don't endorse misogyny or homophobia. Some religious organizations, and certainly many individuals who are members of religious organizations, do support such offensive positions, but that doesn't describe all people who are religious. Just as some atheists are bigots and racists, those terms should not be used to describe all atheists. Not all people of faith are associated with a organized congregation at all. To hold all people of faith accountable for every asinine statement made by some religious leader is ludicrous; we don't make all DUers justify the rantings of trolls who become members of DU.

When the all-knowing DUers mock all religion, they are demeaning a vast number of people who earnestly try to follow the teachings of the prophet or Christ in whichever "good book" best defines their faith, and who work within their religion to achieve a culture that is compatible with liberal and progressive ideals. Jimmy Carter is a very good example.

imo, mocking people because they believe in a deity does not reflect progressive values but is simply verbal harassment. If that is what it takes to make some people feel vastly superior, then I guess DU will become just another place where bullying is accepted.

I am not including you as a bully, Skittles. I know you only beat up people who genuinely deserve a thrashing.

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Response to brer cat (Reply #170)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:54 AM

172. you don't need religion to achieve such things

so please cease with that meme

I am not attacking the religious - I am attacking the ridiculous idea that religion and faith should be free from criticism, end of story

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Response to Skittles (Reply #172)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 02:21 AM

174. Criticism isn't the same as mocking

or ridiculing.

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Response to brer cat (Reply #174)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 03:33 AM

175. it is according to many people, including on DU

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Response to brer cat (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:06 AM

51. When Obama was campainging with hate preachers and then employed Rick Warren

 

DU circled the wagons to defend the folks who said things like 'gays are like pedophiles' and 'this is way, gays are trying to kill our children'. Many people here subjected LGBT people to extreme ridicule for objecting to that denigrating language and the endorsement of it by this Party. Our objections to being denigrated were mocked as 'poutrage' and 'wanting a pony' and 'wanting a fabulous pink pony'.
For objecting to being denigrated and called criminals, we were ridiculed by those who felt religion should have the right to denigrate us. 'It's just Church talk' one DU poster told me 'get over it'.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #51)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:39 PM

109. Oh, I remember that very well.

 

Extremely eye-opening. And, well, honestly - disgusting. Servile.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:29 AM

31. If someone mocks what I believe in, I must be doing something right.

 

It is indifference that does real damage imo, not mocking.

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Response to Rex (Reply #31)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:22 AM

59. And maybe doing something wrong too.

It's a far too common error to assume that being mocked is a badge of honor, a sign that the mockers are wrong and the mocked are right.

There is much that is mocked that wholeheartedly deserves it.

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Response to Silent3 (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 04:35 PM

138. And it is a far too common error to assume that being mocked means you did something wrong.

 

So easy it should be a crime. NEXT.

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Response to Rex (Reply #138)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:46 PM

142. It may be a common error, but so is the badge-of-honor interpretation.

The important lesson is to leap to no conclusions at all based on the simple question of whether one is or isn't being mocked.

Certainly you can be overly sensitive and fail to defend what's right in the face of mockery, but it is also far too common to dig in and double down and miss valid points of criticism. Make no mistake mockery often does carry a valid message, and its shock value can offer more insight at times than gentle, patient explanations.

Even if mockery doesn't directly change the minds of those who have dug in on what's being mocked, it often creates an environment (for better or worse) where those who haven't taken up the mocked viewpoint are less likely to do so.

I'm pretty certain that the huge swing in public attitudes toward gay rights and gay marriage has been made not through careful argumentation and logic for the most part, but through emotional appeals and by making bigots look like idiots.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:34 AM

32. Amen

Oops, is saying amen blasphemous? Probably. Okay, then . . . Amen!!!

Go Pack!!
B

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:43 AM

34. Beliefs

Insulting people for their religious faith lumps everyone into one convenient group to skewer. In reality, people and groups are not so homogenous.

Atheism is a belief system the same as theism. And I'll tell anyone who mocks others' beliefs the same thing I tell religious zealots: you have no proof of life-after-death, so why are you so close-minded?

The straw man argument is in full force here: "...why is it taboo." It is not "taboo", it is just bad manners. Which doesn't matter to some, and I can respect that. But if you want to be taken seriously, separate religion from politics.

Politicians who try to govern and prosthelyze constituents are idiots. But the shared belief of DUers is for progressive and democratic policies that enlighten and advance a society, not a shared belief that spiritual beliefs are the enemy.

Stay on the "offense" of promoting progressive ideas DUers, playing "defense" against the zillions of flawed belief systems is a perpetually unwinnable battle.

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Response to Roy Rolling (Reply #34)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:52 AM

40. I will separate religion from politics the day that the religious separate their beliefs from it.

Until then, it's on.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:30 AM

63. !!! +1

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:14 PM

90. +1000

Btw, I wondered why that poster is even lurking here.



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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:16 PM

92. ...

 

PeaceNikki --

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:45 AM

36. DU rec...

As I posted in Nance's thread:

Religion is a set of ideas and ideas should never be immune from mocking and ridicule.

If ideas are seen as immune from ridicule, soon they'll be immune from criticism. And that way lies madness and tyranny.

And murder.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #36)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:17 AM

58. Amen! (old habits die hard)

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #36)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 12:51 AM

155. I AGREE WITH SID!

Never say never!

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #155)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 06:37 AM

179. And he wrote more than one short snarky sentence!

Isn't it one of the Signs of the Apocalypse?

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:53 AM

42. I will continue to criticize, satirize, and mock things and people that I

believe are destroying America.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #42)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:54 AM

43. Me, too. As we should.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:55 AM

44. The only group I routinely mock and insult is Republicans.

I don't deliberately avoid mocking religions. I just don't have a serious beef with any of them.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:58 AM

45. I understand what you're saying, but religion is on a different plane than politics.

Here at DU, all of us who are here genuinely (and not as trolls) lie somewhere on the left side of the political spectrum.

But ideally, religion is in a completely different sphere than politics. Or at least it ought to be (despite some of the best efforts who seek to blend the two). We've got Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, Hindus, Universalists, Agnostics and Atheists here at DU, as well as countless other belief systems. And the people who subscribe to those beliefs have strongly held reasons for their beliefs.

But this is first and foremost a political website, and not a religious website. Or a sports website. Or a music appreciation website. And mocking people's deeply held beliefs is a pretty big distraction and an unnecessarily divisive matter that detracts from the overall purpose of this primarily political website, not adds to it.

Honestly, what good is gained out of that type of behavior here? I just don't see it. Why create schisms where they ought not exist?

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:03 AM

47. They're intersecting planes

 

Gay marriage, for example, may be a political matter, but we cannot pretend that the animus against it is not religiously derived. So it is with a whole host of issues, from abortion and women's rights to the environment and science to clarion calls by Republicans about liberal godlessness. "San Francisco values!" the religiously inclined declared.

Religion and politics are so intermarried, we had to go out of our way to create a Constitution specifically designed to separate them. And even then, it never entirely took.

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Response to Prism (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:08 AM

53. Well, ideally they are on seperate planes. Practically, not as much.

But the criticism in those instances ought not to be directed at the religion itself, but instead only those who seek to bring it into the same playing field.

You can be critical of people who falsely insist that we must be a "Christian Nation" without attacking the Christian belief system itself. All it takes is a little nuance. Unfortunately, some people lack such nuance, even here at DU.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:13 AM

56. But the religion births the policies

 

And so in order to show why the policies should be invalid, the religion necessarily incurs similar invalidation. When religious belief holds the power and creates the foundation for political ideology, it is by default a necessary object to attack when attempting to defeat those policies.

When your political policy is based on what God wants, there's little recourse but to point out how ridiculous God is.

And I say this as an utterly indifferent agnostic. I don't hate religion or the religious. My family is very Catholic. But, you know, when shit goes down, shit needs to be said.

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Response to Prism (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:09 PM

89. How then do you explain

the animus against Gay Rights by atheistic communist regimes like those

in Cuba and the formerly communist Russia?..Their records on Gay Rights are

much worse than the more "religious" US and Europe.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #89)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:28 PM

103. Oh, it's still religion

 

Russia is not a massively atheistic nation. The government may have attempted to scrub religion from itself officially, but the people themselves still cleave to the Orthodox Church as a national symbol and a vehicle of political power. If you're an opportunistic politician, you will exploit the hell out of that. It's a squicky place where it doesn't seem very religious on the surface (something like a third only identify as very religious), but scratch it and you'll find all kinds of weird strings still being yanked about by the church.

Similar in Cuba. There is a reason the Pope inserted himself into the recent deal between the administration and Castro.

But even if it weren't religion, religion is a major expression of tribalism. Any minority is subject to attack on account of it. Remove religion, and people will find other reasons to hate the Other. It's baked into our flawed human cake.

Outside of race/ethnicity, I'd say the second biggest expression of tribalism in our world is religion.

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Response to Prism (Reply #103)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:34 PM

108. Oh, really, lol?

I think the Russians and Cubans would disagree mightily with that

statement.

You did better with your last sentence in which you pointed the finger at

"tribalism" which is closer to "culture" and much closer to the truth, I'd say.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #108)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:40 PM

111. If you haven't, read up on religion in Russia and the role of the Orthodox Church

 

It's actually a really interesting subject. I spent a little time poring through it when the homophobia in Russia really ramped up, because I also always thought of the place as fairly irreligious. But the play between the Church, Stalinism, and public religious belief is a strange and unique blend. Really, uniquely Russian.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:29 AM

62. I like your point.

And what people need to keep in mind is that the thing we are all against here is INTOLERANCE. And unfortunately, oftentimes the extreme fringes of many religions practice intolerance. So as liberal minded people it's not always useful to condemn entire religions, when what you are fighting is just a particular ugly faction of a religion.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #45)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:36 AM

72. religion is first and foremost political...

not merely a fallout or afterthought

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:05 AM

49. DU Rec



Jesus

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:06 AM

50. I'm on the fence with this...

I don't think it's fair to mock the people who believe.

I do think it's fair to mock the beliefs themselves, especially if those beliefs are insanely illogical.


But also...

I do think that nobody should be immune, and that even goes for the beliefs rampant in one's own political party. Or, I should say, mocking the hypocrisy that oozes from the cracks.

From both parties.

People always think it's someone else's beliefs that should be mocked but their own should be held sacred.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:12 AM

54. huge DU rec

 

seems like people are arguing about arguing then complaing about complaining .

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:24 AM

60. I have a moral objection to bigotry and broadbrushing

Hidden behind criticism of religion.

I have a moral objection for those who go out of their way to hurt and damage others whether it's from a religious standpoint or a secular one.

I have a personal distaste for pack mentality.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:31 AM

65. neat. and I to barbaric tenets, misogyny and violence in the name of religion.

I have a moral objection to religious beliefs bring forced into a secular society and laws.

And a deep moral objection to the way many religious ideology treats women, LGBT and those who don't subscribe to their beliefs.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:57 AM

76. Sure, me too

Doesn't change my thinking one bit. Can I still post here?

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #76)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:58 AM

78. That's entirely up to you, isn't it?

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #78)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:59 AM

81. Exactly.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #81)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:00 PM

82. amen and hallelujah.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #82)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:02 PM

84. Are we really going there?

Would you like the last word, or your thread kicked?

I'm an atheist. I don't do amens.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #84)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:03 PM

85. pssst

I was mocking.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #85)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:04 PM

86. Sorry

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:31 AM

66. I have an objection to bigotry and broadbrushing hidden behind religions.

 

The whole anti gay chorus, which uses the divine as a disguise and a mask for their own agendas, who then take the place of the divine and demand that their bigotry be worshiped as a deity. I do not think that people have some right to abuse others if they say 'it is God's will' before they release their venom or lock that jail cell or worse, hurl the fist stone.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #66)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:59 AM

79. Of course

I did say a secular or a religious standpoint.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #60)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:19 PM

96. Pack mentality? You mean like this pack?

 

This is a pack of religious leaders -- all with penises. Their conclusion? Birth control = bad.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #96)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:21 PM

98. Sure that pack

And any other pack that lost critical thinking skills, provided they had them in the first place.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:30 AM

64. It doesn't do any good

Makes the division deeper.

Mocking Mohamed because we can and to annoy the Muslims seems immature to me and unlikely to lead to any understanding.

It's not an easy line to draw, though. You know it when you see it. Mock Palin and Bush all day and it seems deserved and funny.

Mocking religious people will put you in a category of unable to get along with your fellows, since there are enough of them. And you may need some of them, at least, as allies, for progressive causes. We can only isolate ourselves so far if we want to be part of a society. I can mock everyone who disagrees with me on anything and end up all by myself.

This world now has a Muslim/Not Muslim terrorist problem. Making fun of Mohamed, while it should be legal and all that, isn't constructive in making peace.

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Response to treestar (Reply #64)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 11:36 AM

71. So will you petition the 'faith communities' to stop mocking and denigrating others?

 

Because I do not accept that one group of humans has some right to trash talk other equal humans while being protected from any criticism by law or by social pressure that says the bully gets to be a bully for God.
It's just hard to deal with religious people who spew so much contempt for various others claiming that they must never reap what they sow. Jesus said 'you reap what you sow'. Take it up with him.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:18 PM

94. I probably would, yeah

If I found them to be making fun of people. As Christians, at least, they should never be doing that. Which doesn't mean some of them don't.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:17 PM

93. Religion is an idea invented for and by weak and lazy people

It solves a the big problem for them having to get out and investigating what is really out there in world wide universe and their own backyard.

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Response to nolabels (Reply #93)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:27 PM

102. Actually you are wrong about that

Religion was the forerunner for science. A way to describe the world. If human beings had entirely outgrown the need for magical thinking, we'd have a few billion less people of faith.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #102)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:44 PM

113. Thanks for the information

I should have known magic could solve my problems

I am not saying people should not believe and have religion but more to effect that many use it as a cop out.

Also i can accept you think i am wrong by your definitions and your view. Yet to say I don't really understand what is so great about a bunch people who follow each other around and let others do their thinking is so great would be my response

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Response to nolabels (Reply #113)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:54 PM

114. I was talking historically

It's a fascinating and well documented human journey. The bigger question is why there still are so many people of faith. There are well educated people in the sciences, who still hold strong beliefs in Dieties.

I don't have whatever it takes to be a person of faith, the whole topic is slightly remote from me. I object to human rights violations and I object to church being in state business in any capacity.

But I share a world with so many others, if a point of view is not outright hateful, bigoted, racist, sexist et al.--Then I'm willing to listen.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #114)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 04:06 PM

136. Everybody's bodies are different to one degree or another as everyone knows

I like history too, the study of evolution also seems important to me. As for following the mystic, i once heard a speculation with neanderthals cranial apparatus had a slightly larger frontal cortex which might have led them to be a little more superstitious or looking for supernatural issues.

If you have not read about this before or there has been some evidence and theory we have part of brains that have been wired into being religious in certain ways. It make sense that they do it, sort of like spots on leopard. Being lucky enough to born not to have too much of that kind of thing seems only makes me think i just think about other kinds of things other than that.

Remembering that others think about things differently and in different orders can sometimes be fun in the discussion

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:18 PM

95. There are lots of people posting here who have strong objections to criticizing or mocking

 

their deeply held beliefs. You may be one of them.

It's all just a question of who has power and whose ox gets gored.

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Response to ND-Dem (Reply #95)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 12:25 AM

150. after all, is there any bigger sacred cow than something that's turned into a marketing phenom

overnight national identity, and hashtag-bait?

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:32 PM

106. k&r

And, btw, there's the correlation of religion believers with anthropogenic global climate change denialism. To me, that's a huge deal.



http://www.pewforum.org/2009/04/16/religious-groups-views-on-global-warming/

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 12:40 PM

110. One can be critical without mocking. Satire, is usually best left to a professional.

It is not easily done and walks a very fine line.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 01:18 PM

115. I had no idea that was the entire point of the site.

And I don't consider pointing out the flaws in conservative ideology and suggesting better political solutions to be anywhere near the same as mockery.

Do people here also engage in mockery? Sure. But it's not productive, it's just a way of amusing themselves.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #115)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 01:21 PM

116. Ever hear of "The Top 10 Conservative Idiots"?

That's mockery.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #116)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 01:26 PM

117. As I noted, mockery does take place on the site.

I just don't think it's actually the 'entire point of the site'.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #117)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 01:35 PM

119. Re-read the OP.

If "mockery" was the only thing I said in that statement, you'd have a point.

But it wasn't.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 01:47 PM

120. I try to avoid mocking religious beliefs. To me, there is a difference between

 

faith and politics. Politics is and has always been open to debate. We have a long-held belief that healthy politics encourages debate. The two are intertwined so tightly that they can't be separated.

We also have a long-held belief that religion, at least in my family, is impolite to debate. "Live and let live" is the foundation of a tolerant country. I have an interest in changing your politics, but I am indifferent as to which faith you choose. If one of the components of that religion is offensive to me, like homophobia, I will debate that in the general sense, but not as an attack specifically against one religion. Finding the dividing line between religious and cultural influence is often difficult anyway, and almost every problem within a given religion exists in regions where that religion isn't even practiced.

So to answer your question:

If you have a strong moral objection to criticizing, satirizing or mocking deeply held beliefs why are you posting on DU?


Because I like to discuss politics. Religion? Not so much.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #120)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:08 PM

121. Let me shorten it for you...

You uphold religious privilege.

Religions should be treated with special care compared to other ideas according to what you said.

Why? Sounds like a terrible and unfair idea to me.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #121)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:16 PM

123. Because when my ancestors came to this country

 

They left because they were persecuted for their religion. And before that Europe had incidents like the Thirty Years' War where whole regions of Europe were depopulated Genghis Khan style. We came here so that we could live and practice in peace, not having to be bothered about it.

Debating religion isn't worth the bother. And most importantly, it is a counterproductive waste of energy and time.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #123)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:39 PM

125. It is another idea...

And it is inherently political, like all ideas. It's not a waste of time to debate any more than other ideas.

Religion is an idea. It can't be separated as different from any other idea. It is impossible, and doing so doesn't help keep religious peace, it allows for religious privilege and oppression.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #125)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 03:03 PM

130. Then debate on

 

I'm not trying to stop you in your futile and pointless debates on religion. The thread asks why I'm at DU if I don't believe in challenging religious belief, and I have answered.

Much like religion, I don't care how you waste your free time. I consider it juvenile, so I avoid it

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #130)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:34 PM

144. People change their mind on religion.

So it's not a waste of time, and religion is political.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #120)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:51 AM

171. Can polite disagreement coexist with "live and let live"?

There's no such thing as an idea that's immune to disagreement.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:14 PM

122. Because mockery is not something decent people do to other human beings. Bullies use mockery

to denigrate others, but who wants to be a bully?

Far more effective is to prove someone wrong.

Mockery is a substitute for people who are unable to uphold their own opinions.

Why would anyone want to deliberately hurt people?

It generally has the opposite effect anyhow. And only creates even more hatred and resistance and has never, to my knowledge changed a single person's mind, unless they do so just to get away from the bullies.

Torture is another example of using tactics that don't achieve anything other than more hatred.

But if mockery is all someone can think to do, then that is what they do.

Those who actually made positive changes in this world did not resort to mockery, see MLK eg, however those who tried to stop them, did.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #122)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:21 PM

124. yeesh, someone should tell EarlG!!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #122)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 04:12 PM

187. I'm with you Sabrina 1. Very nicely put. nt

 

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 02:56 PM

127. Tim Minchin from "White Wine in the Sun"...

which became one of my favourite Christmas songs over these past holidays.

"I don't go in for ancient wisdom. I don't believe just 'cause ideas are tenacious, it means they are worthy."


And if anyone knows how to mock religion, it's Tim Minchin.



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #127)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 03:37 PM

132. Thanks, and one of my favorites, Patton Oswalt on respecting beliefs.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #132)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 03:44 PM

134. He's awesome...

I usually post his bit about that awful Christmas Shoes song every year, but didn't this year. If you haven't seen it, here it is a bit late:






Sid

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 03:41 PM

133. I'm not at all opposed to mocking ideas

such as X belief held by a great number of Islamic people. No problem.

But there are a lot of Islamic people where I live and therefore I know a lot of Islamic people and I know many of them are liberals, who are pro-choice, pro-gay rights, etc. You can be an Islamic bigot just like you can be a Christian bigot, and many people of each group are, and that bigotry should absolutely be mocked.

What concerns me is that Islamic people are racialized in this country and are a minority, and the same is true in Europe. Yes Islam is not a race the same way that Asian is a race, but race is a social construct and we have absolutely constructed a racialized version of "Muslim." For instance, I've heard people complaining about "Muslims" who don't even practice Islam, or who do only in the most superficial level in the same way as Catholics who only go to church on Easter and Christmas, and in some cases whose families have been secular for generations. But people still call them "Muslims" and say it isn't specifically about their religion. Many people treat "Muslim" as a race.

I guess to me this is not a dichotomy. I agree with the specifics - we should feel free to mock stupid beliefs - but there's a big picture issue here involving discrimination of people that I think we need to be careful of at the same time.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #133)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 04:38 PM

140. +1,000,000 n/t

 

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 04:34 PM

137. The internet is not a safe zone for sensitive people.

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Response to TeamPooka (Reply #137)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 04:35 PM

139. i heard that there might be *porn* on it, too.

Could that be true!?!??!

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)


Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 08:18 PM

143. The Big Lie

They say it over and over, the religious holy roller right, that the US was founded as a religious nation, or however they say it.

That could not be more wrong, many left to come here to flee religious intolerance and persecution, we were founded to be a secular society.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 09:54 PM

145. We are very much on the same page

 

I tried to make the same point with my post this morning as well. Been interesting to read the responses - some agreeing, others not. Definitely been a fruitful discussion though, in my opinion.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Fri Jan 16, 2015, 10:31 PM

146. I have no problem with ...

... "criticizing, satirizing or mocking deeply held beliefs".

I DO have a problem with mocking an individual solely on the basis that they practice a religion.

As far as I'm concerned, the distance between Church and State can never be wide enough a gap. I abhor proselytizing, or anyone shoving their religious beliefs in my face. I especially abhor those who use their religion as an excuse to belittle or create enmity against those who do not share their faith.

But at the same time, calling an individual an "idiot who believes in fairy tales" simply because they believe in their religion serves no purpose, other than to be demeaning.

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Response to NanceGreggs (Reply #146)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:35 AM

164. Absolutely agree. They should leave the word "idiot" out. It's not helpful. n/t

 

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:08 AM

156. If liberals no longer have the stomach to stand up to power or the oppressors,

of which the major religions of the world are some of the strongest, then who will speak for the victims? Who will speak for the woman about to be stoned? Who will speak for the homosexual man who will be drawn and quartered? Who will speak for the woman lying in a hospital bed in Ireland dying because she can't get an abortion? Why do "Democrats" want to abandon them? Because they want to stay warm and safe and never be offended?

Democrats have neutered themselves and the right has taken over the gap. We no longer fight for justice if we are too afraid to offend. If that were true then Gandhi, MLK, and Mandela should have all stayed silent. Because religion has been the justification for oppression for thousands of years. As I said in that alarming thread, religion is supposed to promote peace and love between people. I have never in my life seen someone mocking a religious person as they did good works. Never, not once.

Religion has made itself a target by all of the horrible, awful things that it has done. And those who go to church/temple/mosque and give money to it are supporting what that institution does. So we have many Catholics on this board who complain of being persecuted whenever they post a Pope PR thread. But most of the time I see people pointing out that the church condemns homosexuality and works very hard to strip rights from women. That is true and while the religious person may have cognitive dissonance about it, it is not any less true. Our neighbors are a lovely Muslim family from Egypt, very warm and kind. I do not have anything against them in the slightest, but I will speak out whenever possible that the religion is oppressive and needs to change in its orthodox state.

As you and I have both said repeatedly for the past few days: if they kept their religion to themselves I would shut up about it.

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #156)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:10 AM

157. Thank you.

After some very heated discussions this week, that was a good read.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #157)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:32 AM

162. Thank you for this thread

I am becoming more and more horrified by the authoritarianism on DU. The commandment that religion is above criticism because it is a "deeply held belief" is a fucking frightening slippery slope. I have no idea why we have forgotten this.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:20 AM

158. If someone gives me "After-Death" threats

because of who I am, who I love or what I believe, I consider them valid targets of mockery. Mockery is perhaps one of the last weapons of the powerless and it's use should never be forbidden to them.

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #158)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:32 AM

161. "After death threats". I like that phrase.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:32 AM

159. Well said. Basically if you can't take the heat, don't go to the kitchen.

I thought being progressive = being open-minded and willing to make an argument behind your opinions. I consider CRITICAL THINKING an important value, being able to filter the bullshit from the merely disagreeable.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:32 AM

160. Read my sig line. It is a deeply held belief and mocking it does nothing but hurt.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #160)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:39 AM

167. You're a kind and compassionate voice of reason in this whole passionate

discussion, uppity.

I just wanted to say that.

I just started reading "Radical: My Journey Out of Islamist Extremism" by Maajid Nawaz. It looks very interesting and I've been very interested in his take on the Paris attack.

And the book won't call me names like some here have.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #167)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 01:56 AM

173. that looks like an interesting book

And thank you. I do not understand people a lot of the time. Life is hard enough without treating each other like crap and when you (royal you, not you Nikki) treat each other bad, the joy of doing so doesn't last long.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 04:51 AM

177. I replied to a thread some time way back when I was new to DU...

stating my opinion that religion was the cause of many ills on this planet. I wasn't being specific to anyone in particular, I didn't use bad language.
Someone reported it, and it was voted banned.
One of the jurors wrote (something like): "By banning this, maybe this person will learn not to be so insensitive to other DU'rs."
Yeah, I learned alright: I learned not to put down religion on DU...and haven't since. But I also lost a lot of respect for DU.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Original post)

Sat Jan 17, 2015, 05:51 AM

178. I'm not walking on egg shells around the bible thumpers. They whine and yell all the time; so can I.

 

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