Updated2! Why I mock religion; chicken-fried steak, pie and the Flat Earth Society

[genwah]

Last edited Sun Jan 18, 2015, 11:40 AM - Edit history (3)

Update 2.0 sorry to all of you who hear voices in your head but I've moved on to the real world here. To those of you who don't hear voices, you may still be psychotic, but what the heck, come join us in actually doing something. Or not doing anything, but whatever. To those commenters I didn't answer, I'll be looking over the stack later, but if I don't, thanks for all the fish.

I really know better than to post here, but what the hell, it's Saturday, I'm bored and good enough at my job so that people aren't yelling at me or diverting the conversation to totally irrelevant stuff. I kinda miss it.

So here's Our Hero (that's me) about 20-25 years ago driving to Death Valley. There's a good reason why it's called Death Valley, but fossils, sex and research stuff; I was driving to Death Valley. On a two lane blacktop since before dawn, at 11-ish I see a needed gas station in a six building town next to a diner that says "World's Best Chicken Fried Steak!" I gas up and go into the diner.

My waitress was smart, and the chicken fried steak was as advertised, real pounded not chopped and formed, freshly fried with real sausage gravy. Okay the grits were instant, but we're headed into Death Valley. As she's taking my plate, the waitress says , "We make two pies a day, they're always fresh." and I really had to say no. Then she says, "Are you here for the Museum or just passing thruogh?" Museum? What?

As it turns out, the Flat Earth Society has their California Regional Museum and Study Center just across the street. Not sure about the "California Regional" part, but they had a big name posted out front. It might have been National HQ or something, but whatever.

To understand my youthful arrogance at this point, I sould tell you, gentle reader, that I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Chemistry. I had no background in Astronomy, Astrophysics, Geology, or anything related to whether the earth was in fact, actually flat. But I foolishly thought that, as Lewis Black would later describe, I could just pull out of my pocket the geographic equivalent of "FOSSIL!" and that would end the argument. I tried to find a shorter clip that makes my point, but here's what I found;

?t=3m21s

Let me tell you how wrong I was. This grey-haired, grey-bearded guy had every "fossil" that I was ready to throw. Pictures of the astronauts on the moon? Navigational charts? Maps of time zones? He had 'em ALL, and using a two-value either/or logic he could back his arguments up. In the same way that you can use algebra to prove that 1=2, he had an answer for everything. In a way, I'm grateful to him; I took up a study of logic that lead me into some really interesting Nerdland stuff for about a year.

Four hours later, I stumble my confused Mensa-member brain back to the diner and ask if there's any pie left. Coffee and pie promptly dispatched, the waitress asks if there's anything else I wanted. I said something to the effect of, "that guy across the street is amazing" And she says, "Yeah, Dad's crazy, but I sell a lot of pie."

Did I mention that my waitress was smart?

Yes, I tipped her a lot.

Which brings me back to my point. Yes, I mock religion, and the Flat Earth-ers, and the birth certificate-ers and the climate change denial-ers. But not without an audience. John Fugelsang said on the Stephanie Miller Show something to the effect of (soft quote); 'You never want to confront these people without an audience because you'll never change their minds. What you can hope for is to influence the people watching you.'

My mistake was in falling into the trap of smart-woman-who-sells-pie. Which is why I mock religion. There will never be a convincing, evidence based logical argument that will convert a TRUE BELIEVER into accepting what lead me to post here, of all places. It was a comment by uppityperson, I think this is how you link here, but I don't really want to spend enough time here to know for sure, so here's the recap.

4. I find it incredible that people do not understand a positive reason for spirituality[break]
That they must continue to be nasty to those who may believe in something more than scientific provable pragmatism.

I'm sorry, what more do you want? This is the world as we know it, that's not enough? Why the fuck not? The answer to 'we don't know enough about the world we live in' is to LEARN MORE ABOUT THE WORLD WE LIVE IN!!! What the Hell is wrong with scientifically proven pragmatism that you find it insufficient for your needs? Do you need an Invisible Friend in the Sky? Because there are professionals looking into why people feel that particular need. And maybe there is a genetic/evolutionary.biological need that we as a species have for an Invisible Friend in the Sky, but can we at least make one that doesn't call for killing abortion providers and journalists and cartoonists? I mean we as a species have made Invisible Friends that are telling us to do all of this crappy stuff, can we make one that feeds and clothes the poor among us? One that says taxes are okay because what is Caesar's should be accountable to Cesar? Oh, wait, I've heard that last one somewhere...it would be nice to fix some roads and bridges and the Caesar stuff

So, yes, I mock religion, in part because we have people in space who have never seen a rainbow bridge carrying a particulary brave Nordic individual to Asgard. And a large city with golden walls whose streets are lined with gems has not yet been apparent, maybe it's past our satelites and probes and Voyager and stuff. And maybe God is real and he just needs a star-ship

I will continue to mock whatever, God, Jebus, Mohammed, but only in front of an audience, because I will never convert the by now must be deceased Flat Earth guy who ran the museum and study center, but because there will be an audience and maybe a few of them will look into actual science and maybe even math and logic. Peace.

P.S. IOKIYAR but I'm not so in for all of you, here's my background. There is a scene in the movie "The American President" where the Rethugs rejoice over q pic of the president's girlfriend behind a burning US flag. I've never been at the burning of the flag, but I have been at protests in the Center of thee World, San Francisco, against the wars on Afghanistan and Iraq. I keep a low profile in election staffers because my sign said "Yet another Chinese-American Jewish Bisexual Sado-Masochistic ex- porn star for PEACE" I keep a low profile when I work for a campaign, I walk precincts and phone bank, but I'm allergic to B-roll.

I only point this out because DU is really a bunch of whiny people who will follow any OP to snark and distract from what the OP's author intends, instead of actually DOING SOMETHING.

I get it,doing stuff is hard. And I know better than to post stuff here, but saying reality isn't enough? There are rooms with soft walls for people who aren't so fond of reality.

Anyway, it's not as if anyone will see this, because an OP needs what 4-10 Recs to make it to the Greatest thread? I've never gotten that nany recs and I doubt I ever will because I'm not a member of the club.So, whatever, but how can scientifically provable stuff be not enough? What, you want ice cream on top of that?


UPDATE! Okay all of you listen up! Really, yikes! This is why America can't have nice things! Because my one little post managed to drag the Democratic Party, Jon Stewart, and some kind of supposed difference between religion and spirituality because if you're the only one hearing the voices in your head you're spiritual, but if you have a gang then it's a religion, or something. Whatever, just don't kill people, okay?

My point was, and still is, that I had an encounter with a smart waitress and her smart father whose opinions could not be changed with facts. My point is that there is no point in trying to reason with religion and/or spirituality on their side is worth attempting because reason doesn't enter into the equation. When faith or spirituality or karma or whatever enter into the discussion, there's no winning with facts, science or truth. That stuff just doesn't matter. Or the earth is really flat. Which actually wouldn't bother me, since I can't afford to go anywhere if the earth was round anyway.

So my bigger point is what are we doing here? I can't believe that the one thing I post that gets any kind of attention is about the woo-woo stuff.

This place is called the Democratic Underground. When you're underground, that kinda means you're DOING SOMETHING. And the Democratic part would, I hope mean something, too.

Who here is organizing and registering voters? Why is there not an organized effort to actually DO SOMETHING? Is it here and I haven't found it? I don't spend much time here, it's just mostly a link dump and not an action kind of place. Am I wrong? Is there a secret room here that organizes voter registrations, letters to the editors, and maybe even outright street actions? Is there a secret password to get into the DU action people? Because if the only post I get any response to is whether religion/spirituality/tofu and not what can a bunch of us do to actively change the political crap that is happening then really this is not a Democratic Underground.

P.S. Whatever. I've been banned by bigger paces thqn this/ The racist Big Bad Orange baned me more than once, their internal stalkers are really good

[PeaceNikki]

1. I just did my part to get your heathen ass to the Greatest Page

Great story.

[genwah]

3. Thank you!

[Autumn]

2. Well now it only needs three more recs to make it to the Greatest

Great story.

[genwah]

4. Thank you!

[Fred Sanders]

5. Your videos are pure comedy gold, satire withe humor works way, way better. Thanks.

In the Lewis Black video he says there was a time "When asked if he believed in evolution, President Bush said 'I think the jury is still out"? Did Bush really say that?

[genwah]

7. Yep. He really did. Amazing, isn't it?

[Pacifist Patriot]

11. Yep. Hit the news cycle right before the 2000 election if I recall correctly.

Or maybe that was just when it hit my radar.

[Luminous Animal]

6. That was a fun read.

[Fred Sanders]

9. Fun, well written, some editing issues aside, and the point of using humor to take down the Idiotocracy

means it has the right message. Great stuff. The right stuff.

[genwah]

39. Thank you!

[tkmorris]

8. I like you

K&R for this post, which was a good read and whose conclusions I agree with utterly. You do want to be careful about naming other DUers in your posts though, as attacks on specific individual DUers are deemed to be reason to hide posts. For me, I'd let this stand if I was on the jury but others may not.

Otherwise...

[Fred Sanders]

10. I vote LET IT STAND. Do an edit?

[genwah]

41. Thanks, I didn't know. It seems to me as odd though that

you can follow someone around here from OP to OP and snark at them, and there's no response, but if you just mention that that's why you're writing an OP that's forbidden?

Never mind, should I edit the OP?

[tkmorris]

56. It IS odd frankly, but there it is

As for the OP, it's stood thus far so I suspect you're in the clear. Once it survives an alert it cannot be alerted again and I would think if there was going to be one it already happened.

[genwah]

58. Good to know, thanks. I don't speak here a lot

just because, well, look at the comments you get.

[uppityperson]

61. Don't bother, I replied downthread, would not alert on this because I wouldn't. And once it

survives one jury, it won't be juried again.

It would be nice for a direct reply rather than simply replying to those to have replied to me. Are you saying I am stalking you and snarking at you? Please clarify, thank you.

[genwah]

71. No, no a thousand times no. I have no idea who you are

and really, don't take this the wrong way, but don't care. If you are a stalker here, don't worry, as I said in one of my replys somewhere, I made a mistake, I posted on this blog, it was a slow Friday and my bad.

I didn't mean to imply that you weren't actually taking action to volunteer or organize volunteers or get out into the streets, or register voters.

I have no idea if you are stalking me now, since I know better than to post here, I haven't posted enough stuff here to HAVE stalkers because it's such a little club.

And really? Go ahead and stalk me, because I really will stop posting here just because of these kinds of discussions. My whole point is that there are real things we can do to make changes, and somehow every OP devolves into 'Mom always liked you better' arguments.

The name of this place is Democratic Underground. Well, fine, but the Underground is supposed to be DOING SOMETHING!

When I can make the greatest thread list because I'm organizing action instead of opposing woo-woo shit like the earth is flat, then by all means stalk me, because then we won't be dealing with the differences between religion and spirituality, (really? WTF?) but with how we can take political power to make this country better.

How does your "spirituality" feed a hungry child?

[uppityperson]

78. "How does your "spirituality" feed a hungry child?" By donating to the food bank, volunteering at

the local dvsa facility, working at family planning/planned parenthood, doing mobile medical clinics in LA/MS after Katrina (organized through DU), taking in my child's friends and making sure they have a good meal before heading home to their empty house, working at a Head Start and before and after that volunteering at preschools and grade schools, etc etc etc.

How does your mocking of religion or cussing at me for the awful crime of "needing more" than scientific pragmatism in my life feed a hungry child? Let's see you organize action, to make this country better.

You tell me you one of my posts inspired you, you post a call out and then accuse me of stalking you? I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[genwah]

82. Really? That's what you got out of this whole mess?

You wanna play "I'm better than you" or "Mom always liked you best"?

Fine, whatever, I really don't care. Do what you want, if it happens to help other people, good on you. Good on you,as long as the voices in your head don't tell you to kill people, keep on keeping on.

Really, I mean it. If you need something more than objective provable science, whatever. Just don't kill anyone.

[uppityperson]

85. You asked me a question and I answered. That you find...bad?

I answer your question "How does your "spirituality" feed a hungry child" and you accuse me of playing one upmanship and throwing in another insult?

If you don't want me to answer, don't ask.

Goodbye.

[sibelian]

87. !

Uppity's actually quite nice, genwah.

[tavalon]

107. Yo, genwah, I just wanted to interrupt this little pissing contest to say:

we are the poorer for you not posting more. You actually have a thicker skin than I might have thought from your update. And you have interesting thoughts.

This small community is now so huge and fractured without its common enemy that there really isn't much of substance said here anymore. So much so, I pretty much left for the last year or so, something I haven't done since early in the Bush years.

Back then, there were people posting important, interesting, engaging things here. Kind of like what you did up there. I don't agree one hundred percent, but it was a good read.

If you have good stuff like that in you, it's a pluperfect shame that you aren't posting more.

I'm serious. If this is your usual, then I'm on board. If it isn't, bone up and climb into the mosh pit. We need decent stuff to read here.

[ND-Dem]

111. +1. DU used to be a lot more interesting.

[genwah]

116. Thank you! Can we please look at the name Democratic Underground and

look at what that means?

Are we Democrats; Democrats from the Democratic Wing of the Democratic party? Are we really Underground , fighting for a better society or, as the Preacher said in Blazing Saddles, "...are we just jerking off?"

One person in a gerrymandered red district,in a red state can make a difference. I want to help that person. But I look here and OPs that have a real point get no recs and a whole lot of replies about the OP poster or why they're politically incorrect or just a bunch of crap from what look like a bunch of crabs-in-the-bucket.

I mean, really; how did Jon Stewart and the whole Democratic party get into this post? What would happen if I posted about Jon Stewart or the Democratic party? Don't answer, look at posts about Jon Stewart or the Democratic party.

No kidding, how can we get the good people here up and out to GOTV?

[tavalon]

143. I'm guessing you weren't here in the beginning, when it seems like so few of us understood

that our national election system had been usurped by, as we called them, the felonious five. Back then, it really felt like we were backed against the wall and this was the place we came to vent. And make friends in an increasingly hostile, scared of its own shadow, America.

Then came President Obama and frankly we feel apart without a common enemy.

The good people here do and have GOTV. They don't do it while they're typing but sometimes they are typing a last comment before grabbing their coats to go out and GOTV. Or maybe they say they do. We have no way of knowing. I used to tell everyone I worked in the Seattle Kerry campaign, but when he turned out to be such a sellout and his running mate, a complete cad, it was hard to keep that one on my resume.

I sponsor kids overseas, I pay my ACLU dues, go to plenty of protests, especially since Michael Brown was gunned down and of course, GOTV. An awful lot of us do, but here is the place we usually just come to kick back, and talk about things.

[Skittles]

88. serious question

why would you need religion to do any of those things?

[uppityperson]

89. Serious answer, you don't need religion to do any of those things.

I was asked "How does your "spirituality" feed a hungry child?" so I answered. Perhaps the question was not meant literally, but I took it as a serious question deserving of an answer.

I do not belong to any organized religion, feel too often they are used to control people rather than promote good, too often they are rituals that do not translate into the real world. My spiritual beliefs are private to me.

I don't need religion to do any of those things. Religion is not needed to do any of those things.

[Skittles]

90. I am not religious but I do believe in "do unto others"

to me it is just plain empathy that drives me to donate platelets, contribute to the food bank, send care packages to soldiers and Afghani children - nothing more - and may I add that I seem to have more "empathy" than the overwhelming majority of "Christians" I know

[zappaman]

12. I was a proud member of the flat earth society!

Back before the internet, finding an organization like this wasn't as easy.
But so worth it just for the membership diploma and the cool map showing our flat world.

[genwah]

44. Sorry. Please don't shoot me. The pie was also good.

[uppityperson]

13. To respond to your call out, here. I stand by what I wrote, what you quote.

I find it incredible that people do not understand a positive reason for spirituality, that they must continue to be nasty to those who may believe in something more than scientific provable pragmatism.

I was raised in a time when women who specialized in math and science had 2 career choices, teach math or science, or become a nurse. If I were born 20 years later, I'd probably become an engineer, or worked in genetic research.

So indeed yes. I am very cognizant of science, of the desire to know how and why something does what it does. How do things fit together? How do things relate?

And still I stand by what I wrote. I find it incredible that people do not understand a positive reason for spirituality, that they must continue to be nasty to those who may believe in something more than scientific provable pragmatism.

"What the Hell is wrong with scientifically proven pragmatism that you find it insufficient for your needs? Do you need an Invisible Friend in the Sky? " is an EXCELLENT example of what I meant.

To claim any spirituality is "Invisible Friend in the Sky" blocks off any sort of attempt to understand what someone truly believes. Insulting is simpler than attempting to understand.

[ColesCountyDem]

16. ^^^^^ This! +1. n/t

[Fred Sanders]

17. I think it is not the spirituality part of religion the OP objects to, it is the anti-science part,

the part that firmly believes man walked with dinosaurs and "Fred Flintstone" is a documentary.

And the part that thinks that "the jury is still out" on the theory of evolution. Or climate warming. What's up with that?

Because if you do believe global warming is real you can retreat to the fantasies and just say it is just God giving the Earth a hug? And does Man have Dominion over the Earth giving us full authority to rape and pillage Her?

Have it all, think it all, make Churches if you like, tax exempt if you like, just keep it out of my government.

Same mindset, and when it gets into governing and power what policies would be good ones based on this kind of thinking? How would they use that power, including the military and nuclear weapons if they got their itchy Armaggedon trigger fingers on the Suitcase, the one that goes along with the big desk in the White House?

How is their ideology damaging action in climate warning, on gay rights, fiscal responsibility, on minimum wage, on environmental issues, etc.? This theocratic viewpoint is dangerous if integrated with political power, and that is serious stuff. Check out Saudi Arabia and Uganda for extreme examples.

You can have spirituality without religion also, have it with a dose of organized religion if it goes down better, no objection, no problems, but it crosses the line when you have to foist all the excess baggage on the rest of the world and deny climate change because it is Gods's plan, then that I object a whole bunch.

You may think Reverand Wright was a bit out there, but check out the preacher Sen. Cruz listened to. Why does Cruz get a pass on what his religious beliefs and background are?

Jealously guarding secularism was the message of Hebdo this week, they said so in their editorial.

[kentauros]

20. Then be exactly that specific.

Do not use the broad brush of "religion" if attacking one's beliefs is so important to some. A broad brush hurts far more people than an exact and specific attack on the bits most objectionable.

But really, what uppityperson, and I, and everyone else that has been attempting to get across to the vocally indignant is to just choose be a nice and civil person instead of choosing to be a jerk. No one likes a jerk.

[Fred Sanders]

22. How can you be a good mocker without being a jerk to the mockee?

Not that this OP was mockery, more toward the reality side.

[kentauros]

25. You can't, which is why I used the word "attack."

However, you can be civil and nice through criticism, if you understand how to parse your words in such a manner.

So far, I've seen a majority of posters in these threads completely confuse the use of "mock" and "criticism." They are not the same. Mocking has the intent of hurting. Criticism has the intent of educating, analyzing, and other such positive outcomes. The best critics don't mock. You learn something from the best critics because they get to the specifics instead of relying on the broad brush. You learn nothing from the broad brush, except that the mocker is a jerk.

[Fred Sanders]

27. John Stewart and all his fans would disagree with that. Is he a jerk?

[kentauros]

31. He doesn't attack with the intent to hurt.

He turns it into comedy.

I think I need to point out the absolute root of all of this. That is, it's all about intent.

Jon Stewart does his "mocking" with the intent of comedy, to make people laugh, even those at the heart of each subject. They don't always take it that way, but it still doesn't have the intention of harming the deeply-held emotions of the subject.

The mocking we are seeing on DU of late has the intent of hurting those with such deeply-held beliefs. You can tell in their choices of words. I don't think I need to list them all, as they are quite obvious to the astute observer.

Whereas I have read a handful of members here that understand criticism and how to write in such a way that does not attack, mock, or have any intention of hurting the deeply-held beliefs of individuals. They understand how to be civil.

I may need to point this out as well, because some mockers don't appear to understand (or want to understand) that deeply-held beliefs are as much a part of that individual's emotional makeup as their love for any special person in their life. Attacking such beliefs is akin to attacking a loved-one. No one likes it when a loved-one is attacked, and most would agree that it's wrong to do such a thing to a person. So, why is it okay to attack an equally-loved belief? Again, we have the answer in the intent of the attacker.

I really don't have anything else to say other than that above. If you don't understand anything, then I have failed in parsing my words correctly, and would ask others to fill you in. I just can't think of how to get at the heart and root of all this any other way. I do hope I have caused a few to think about the power of words, though...

[cleanhippie]

36. If you haven't squirmed in your seat with sympathy as some of his guests get skewered

if even only out of a sense of humanity, then I'd hate to see your definition of "hurt".

[ND-Dem]

114. +100

[ND-Dem]

115. JS is funny. Most DU mockers aren't (though some think they are). They remind me of junior

high school kids getting a big laugh at the unpopular kids' expense.

I personally haven't seen JS be meanspirited in his humor, but I've seen mean-spiritedness here.

[Fred Sanders]

124. -100.

[ND-Dem]

113. +100

[genwah]

60. on Rev. Wright IOKIYAR. But how is spirituality not religion?

No kidding, really, how?

[Fred Sanders]

62. We will have to agree on the definition of spirituality, but if it means inner calm and outter peace,

all I am saying is you can have spirituality without religion.

The Ten Commandments are not spiritual, they are common sense. I can obey them without the whole Moses and the burning plant matter thing.

Maybe that is not the right definition.

If the fundies and good Christians of any Christian sect, how many are there anyway, would just go back to their pews and clutch ther guns and Bibles there without doing harm and let the nation remain secular, I got no problem with whatever definition of spirituality they want to adopt.

[oberliner]

69. The Ten Commandments are not common sense

The first four make no sense whatsoever.

[Fred Sanders]

70. Well, those are more of an introduction, the no craven image part I ccould live with.

[Avalux]

28. I think you're confusing spirituality and religion.

Religion is what happens when human beings make up rules to explain that part of us that can't be explained by science, although evidence like the two slit test is getting close. It's call consciousness, we all have it.

I will ridicule any religion that tries to tell me I can't use birth control because god said so. Or, that I'm still married to my gay husband in the record books. Or, that a man parted the red sea. OR - the worst one - if you don't agree with us, we have every right to hunt you down until you agree, or kill you.

There is no way to insult spirituality because it can't be defined. Religion is a different story.

[uppityperson]

33. I agree that they are different, and am not sure why my comment lead to this OP's rant on religion

"I find it incredible that people do not understand a positive reason for spirituality that they must continue to be nasty to those who may believe in something more than scientific provable pragmatism" lead to this OP's rant on religion and "Invisible Friend in the Sky" except perhaps the OP does not understand the difference.

[Avalux]

43. I think you may be correct.

I think the OP, while I admit the post is an entertaining read, did not interpret your words as you meant them.

[genwah]

74. Okay, I don' know how conversations work on this site

and I really don't care yet, but what is the f**king difference between religion and spirituality? Two things you by definition can't prove and somehow think are real.

I'm not being mean here, String theory is in the same boat, something that, by definition, can't be proven by experiment is just as valid as religion or spirituality/ WTF makes spirituality different from religion? It's all stuff you can't see and can't prove.

[uppityperson]

80. You don't know, don't care, yet do care enough to cuss and insult me saying"I'm not being mean here"

Here are the basic differences, I have no reason to go into it further since you have shown no desire to have a serious discussion but instead insult, accuse, argue. Spirituality is, imo, individual belief. Religion is the organized thing, typically with rites, etc.

[genwah]

84. So religion isn't spirituality becaause the

voices you hear in your head aren't shared by a group? Individual disbelief in science is better than group disbelief?

What am I missing in your argument?

[valerief]

128. Bwahahaha! Now it's time for their, "It's a mystery," answer. nt

[genwah]

63. Okay, why? Spirituality I'm guessing has something to do with spirits.

so ghosts are better than Gods? Whut?

[Avalux]

68. That's the best you can do?

[genwah]

76. Well, yeah. What do you want?

[genwah]

104. Okay,then. Have a nice life. Really.

[betsuni]

101. Speaking of insulting spirituality...

There's an old skit from "A Prairie Home Companion" about the ELCA, The Evelyn Lundberg Counseling Agency. Evelyn thinks people who say they're "spiritual but not religious" should grow up already and join the Lutheran Church like adults, we have a society here:

"So you're a heathen. Fine. Good for you. ... Maybe that's why you're unhappy. It's all about you, you, you. So you do yoga and you worship animals and you burn candles that smell like cardamom. Do you think that makes you a good person? Just because you're nice to people like yourself? Just because you have friends? Well, la di da. A nice chardonnay and a baguette is not the same as communion."

[cleanhippie]

37. You were given credit, not called-out.

And I hate to be the one to break the news, the OP wasn't about you. He used a comment you made to illustrate a larger point, that had nothing to do with you, uppityperson.

I'm familiar enough with Spirituality to know that "ego" is the obstacle that must be overcome in order to see clearly. Are you?

[uppityperson]

38. The bigger question is have you. nt

[cleanhippie]

40. Have I what?

What are you talking about?

[genwah]

55. Yes, what ARE you talking about? Googling "spirituality define"

I got

Spirituality is a process of personal transformation, either in accordance with traditional religious ideals, or, increasingly, oriented on subjective experience and psychological growth independently of any specific religious context.

What are you talking about?

[cleanhippie]

97. That's novice level google-fu.

Sometimes one need just sit still and pay attention to learn.

[genwah]

102. Ummm... whut? So I should sit still wand whut?

[zeemike]

46. Sometimes I think the purpose of it is to piss people off

And try to make DU or other sites like them a hostile place for people of faith...And to demonstrate that the Democratic party is friendly to it.
And the attempt to justify the mocking and insulting is well underway...and if we fall for it we are fools.

[genwah]

57. Umm...whut? I deliberately don't post stuff here

and why should I care if DU is precieved as hostile to people of faith, whatever that means?

And how did you drag the whole Democratic party into my OP which I only intended to say that woo-woo stuff should not be considered a part of political discussion?

That climate change denial is wrong, Kenesyian economic models work, and really, we have religious nuts who kill people, too is a Democratic party plank in the platform?

Whut?

[Fred Sanders]

59. When you mock their woo woo stuff, just that stuff, it still hurts them deeply, all over. This pain of

Enlightenment is shared by the Pope.

[genwah]

67. Okay, look; The whole Democratic Party got into this somehow

please don't bring in the pope. Cause that's all this OP needs.

[zeemike]

73. Well the democrats depend on votes not science.

And what you suggest is insulting the base of the Democratic party, which are mostly the voters they need to win elections...so you attach the hostile attitude toward the party and see what happens...they will reject Democrats as being hostile to them.
It makes no sense to insult the people you want to vote...and is totally unnecessary and counter productive to do so.

The GOP has plenty of atheist in it...in fact their patron saint is Ayn Rand an atheist...but you will never see them insulting and ridiculing them...they want us to though.

Just another way to divide us up.

And who decides what is woo woo stuff? You?...do you have some expertise that we should let you be the decider?

[beam me up scottie]

77. You never see Republicans insulting and ridiculing atheists???

[zeemike]

86. Well that is not their base.

But religion is...but they have the sense not to try to piss off the base.
But will point out just how much Democrats hate them.

But hell we don't need their votes do we?...so let's insult them and show them just how right the GOP is about us.

[beam me up scottie]

92. I vote for Dems no matter how much my fee-fees get hurt on DU.

Of course being an evil atheist I don't have fee-fees, but that's beside the point.

[zeemike]

96. So you council us to be hostile

Because people should not get their fee fees hurt because you don't.
Should gays not get there fee fees hurt if you insult them?
How about women?...can you insult them too? Are they always getting their fee fees hurt?

What don't you understand about common courtesy to others that are and should be your ally in social justice?
People of faith are our natural allys...but because some pretend to be believers and have abandon the principles they claim to represent and went over to the dark side you blame them all...and you claim it is what they believe in that is the problem.

And not surprising is that the shit house preacher will blame your belief in atheism as the problem and will point to all the atheist that have done horrible things as proof that it is YOUR belief that is the problem....don't you see the irony in it?

[beam me up scottie]

99. Offs, you're not the indians, you're the fucking cowboys.

How dare you compare your treatment on DU to the bigotry that lgbt people and women face on a daily basis from RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.

Your sickening little pity parade would be laughable if it wasn't so typically arrogant and coming from a place of privilege.

Recent religious atrocities have generated a backlash against religion on DU and you can't get over yourself long enough to understand why.

Cry me a fucking river.

[zeemike]

105. And now you turn your anger on me.

So we have no where to go but downhill from here....good by.

[cleanhippie]

123. Yeah, you're the victim here.

[zeemike]

134. The victim here is honesty and the winner division.

[cleanhippie]

135. If you say so.

Whatever makes you fell better, I guess.

Have a nice day!

[2banon]

64. "Positive Reason for Spirituality" ?

[uppityperson]

65. Yes. Was MLK Jr bad because of his spirituality? Ghandi? Is it not possible for anyone to be

spiritual in a positive way, have a positive reason for being so?

Or is it simpler for you to simply copy 4 words and post a smilie?

[genwah]

117. Okay, so now we have Jon Stewart, the Democratic party

MLK and Ghandi to support your contention that the voices in your head are good?

Science is real, it changes when we learn more. People do good and bad stuff because of the voices in their heads. Spirituality/religion/psychosis/whatever will make some people do good stuff and some people do horrible stuff.

The time that you and I have wasted arguing about the voices in your head, as opposed to finding progressive candidates for 2016, or writing letters to the editor or just talking to people we know and advocating for their right to vote, because you really, really like the woo-woo stuff is annoying.

I am now looking at a giant bottle of CVS antacid and a spray bottle, because I'm getting ready to protest and CVS antacid diluted 50:50 with water is what you spray on your sister if she's been tear gassed.

It's MLK weekend, people already shut down BART for a while, and I'm getting ready for tomorrow, on the streets.

Sorry if I hurt your fee-fees.

[uppityperson]

118. your prejudices continue to show.

You accuse me of stalking when I respond to a call out of me. You become upset when I take your question of what am I doing seriously and answer you seriously, then you complain that DU should be organizing things while ignoring what I wrote. You say time has been wasted "because you really, really like the woo-woo stuff". You tell me I have voices in my head, repeatedly, without any knowledge of what I do or do not believe. And you condescendingly "apologize".

What. The. Fuck.

You have no clue who I am or what I believe, and make claims about me that have no basis in reality. You claim to believe in provable things, in science yet make such bizarre claims based on your imagination?

Your prejudices are showing, mightily.

"apology" is rejected.

[genwah]

79. Okay, again, what?

WTF is spirituality? I kinda think its stuff you can't see and can't prove. And I'm the bad guy here?

[valerief]

127. You're half right. Spirituality is stuff you can't measure/prove. However, it can be converted

to a brainwashing substance that subverts the will of the masses to the power of the oligarchy. But its ability to mutate into different forms never corrupts its core mission, which is to make the rich richer.

[2banon]

141. ....

I agree with you. I'm just thinking that maybe this OP should have been posted in that forum where people like to evangelize their woo. I think it's called Religion and Spirituality, or something.

Just a suggestion..

[ND-Dem]

112. +100

[hifiguy]

14. A thousand bravos!!

Kicked, rec'd and

[genwah]

53. Thank you!

[shenmue]

15. I like chicken fried steak

if that's any consolation.

[kentauros]

21. And I like pie.

Especially if it's fresh

[shenmue]

23. Thank you.

[Dustlawyer]

26. With you if there is also mashed potatoes and gravy!

Chicken fried chicken is also good.
OP is right about most DUers not wanting to DO ANYTHING like they are in a food coma from the CFS! We will kill ourselves with overpopulation and pollution! The time to act should be building for this next election. We should be demanding an end to the corruption in our elections where we allow the wealthy to buy our politicians outright. No surprise why we are doing so bad on the inequality front!

[genwah]

49. Yes! Why do DUers/DU-ites/DU-ocrats (I really don't

spend much time here) post OPs about doing anything? I'm not talking about signing online petitions or adding names to a list, where is the "Let's hit the streets and fix this shit?"

This is prime voter registration time for the high schools and community colleges, I'm ordering more forms this week.

[Worried senior]

29. Me too.

[Bryce Butler]

18. Kick and Rec

[genwah]

72. Thank you

[madfloridian]

19. Awesome videos

This recovering Southern Baptist appreciates your post for its intelligence. Not sure just what I believe anymore, but it's been hard letting go of the dogma on which I was raised.

I am becoming intolerant of politicians who are taking away our rights as women as though we were a lesser species. It appears they are doing it in the name of God. That is unconscionable.

I am becoming intolerant of those who are taking away services that help the poor and disabled keep their dignity.

Then they claim to love God and serve him. Unbearable.

[genwah]

52. Thank you. As a recovering Catholic and ethical Jew, God sounds like a dope

but from whatever faith or vioce you hear in your head, He (why He?) doesn't belong in govenment

[Cassidy]

24. Excellent points genwah

Another reason I tend to disrespect religious or spiritual people is because I too often see them use their spirituality as an excuse not to fight for reality. For example, my deeply Christian relative whose response to everything bad in the world is that it is god's will. Why donate to the poor? Their misery is god's will. Why help out when the flood comes through? It is god's will.

When a big deal anti-evolutionist came to give a talk in town, I asked all the Christians I knew to come and argue against him. Although they all accept the theory of evolution, not one of them would stir themselves to stand up for science. Not their problem? What kind of truth do they stand for, if they won't face down their own liars? What kind of courage does that show to make others fight their battles?

[Avalux]

30. What is consciousness?

I'm still waiting for that phenomenon to be explained scientifically. Oh - and it has nothing to do with not accepting evolution, or believing in god's will. Don't confuse spirituality with religion. Might be a good idea if you did a little reading up on each one.

BTW I'm a scientist.

[paleotn]

75. Electrochemical activity in the human brain....

masquerading as something outside our big noggins. In response to Jacob Marely's ghost, old Scrooge was right on one thing.....

"Why do you doubt your senses?" "Because," said Scrooge, "a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato. There's more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!"


That's as good an explanation as any since no one has so far been able to find any empirical evidence of anything supernatural. I just can't buy the "we don't understand, therefore magic" explanation, but if some want to believe that, it's cool. If it turns out that supernatural forces outside our material universe do exist, hey, that's great too. If not, no big deal. I find the natural world just as fascinating and fulfilling. Just my two cents worth.

[Avalux]

130. "That's as good an explanation as any since no one has so far been able to find....

any empirical evidence of anything supernatural."

You should have ended the sentence with ANYTHING. There is no evidence to explain consciousness through brain chemistry, or anything else. So why then, do you discount something outside of the realm of the physical? Does it scare you?

[paleotn]

136. "There is no evidence to explain consciousness through brain chemistry, or anything else."

Thus magic? I don't have a problem with "we simply don't understand it currently and further research is needed, but the best guess right now is anchored in the natural world." I have no need to fill in the gap of understanding with magic or invisible pink unicorns. And that gap you insist on filling with "magic" is shrinking at an ever increasing rate. So far, it's just natural world, zero magic, thus I have to discount the idea that any "magic" will ever be found. The chances are not zero, mind you. I don't believe in absolutes, but the odds seem to be approaching zero.

[Avalux]

137. Just keep an open mind to anything being possible. That's all I can ask.

Have a fantastic Sunday!!

[Cassidy]

103. I have done quite a bit of reading on such topics, thank you.

Nothing I have read, heard, or experienced has convinced me that there is anything beyond the material world. Fortunately, the material world has plenty of marvels and wonders.

The awareness of death is likely why organisms with consciousness so often feel the need to imagine extra-material connections or beings beyond the material world. I also have a personal experience of the limitations of consciousness since I have epilepsy and experience seizures of varying degrees. Nothing like loosing consciousness abruptly, experiencing the little death of a tonic-clonic seizure, to enable one to recognize how temporal and temporary life truly is.

[Avalux]

131. Why are humans the only species to have an awareness of death?

Unlike you, I have had experiences that convinced me there is something beyond what our 5 senses tell us is real. It is ego-driven pretentiousness to think that there is no existence beyond what can be explained by our limited physical abilities. I am open to any explanation; if science can prove the 'thing' that gives us awareness, gives us the freedom to choose instead of acting on instinct alone, then I'll accept it happily. I think what we'll find as we keep pulling the string of quantum physics, is that every law we've constructed to explain our physical world is false. That's when the fun starts.

I'm sorry you have a seizure disorder, and I hope you've been able to manage it. I had a good friend who would have seizures and I know it's not easy.

[beam me up scottie]

32. What a pleasure to give this awesome op its 37th rec!

Fuck recs and the popular kids, you should post ops like this for those of us who so desperately NEED heroes on DU.

Which brings me back to my point. Yes, I mock religion, and the Flat Earth-ers, and the birth certificate-ers and the climate change denial-ers. But not without an audience. John Fugelsang said on the Stephanie Miller Show something to the effect of (soft quote); 'You never want to confront these people without an audience because you'll never change their minds. What you can hope for is to influence the people watching you.'

You have an audience, genwah, and we want more!

[PeaceNikki]

45. this. I thoroughly enjoyed his writing and hope to see more

[betsuni]

51. Agree, we want more!

Pretty please.

[blkmusclmachine]

34. http://cdn.iwastesomuchtime.com/July-19-2011-17-19-40-pope.jpg

[blkmusclmachine]

35. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/walker66/popemobile-papa2532011pu.jpg

[AngryAmish]

42. Well, what kind of pie was it?

I have been to the Norske Nook (Osseo )four times in 25 years . I can tell you, in order, the pie I got. Dutch Apple, Durch Apple, Cherry and Bavarian Creme.

If you ever get to Osseo go to the Norske Nook.

Dammit, I love pie.

[ffr]

47. I spent the last 24 hours learning about Charles Lindbergh

What I uncovered or learned was not unlike what you wrote, more information and enjoyable reading than I was expecting.

Great job genwah.

[betsuni]

48. I loved this!

I don't understand what spirituality even is. Big religions are regional cults that got out of hand. Respecting nature, though, that's another matter. Hiking during avalanche weather? No wonder the mountain gods get angry and chase you away with tumbling snow. That's just common sense.

I've never had chicken-fried steak and don't agree with the idea of batter-frying cows. Chickens and pigs, yes of course, batter up, but steak should be grilled over smoldering coals. I also think pie has nothing to do with ice cream and eating them together is incorrect. I guess if I started my own religion it would be mostly rules about forbidden food combinations.

[missingthebigdog]

93. Lol

I concur. With everything.

[distantearlywarning]

50. I'll rec you; I loved this post

On Edit: Chicken fried steak is awesome. I had some last night.

[kpete]

54. great place to park this again:

peace, kp

[F4lconF16]

108. Bahaha I love it. nt

[Heidi]

109. Thumbs up!

Thank you, kpete! I'd never seen that. Brilliant.

[Mbrow]

66. K & R

ok, loved it. but I know what you mean, I don't think I could ever run for office, I've been to too many marches.

Bye the bye, god wants a spaceship like adults plays with model trains. Jebus! I thought everybody knew that!

[LiberalArkie]

81. one hell of an OP. Almost like a lot of the old ones from years gone by. Need More.

[Warpy]

83. Nothing sounds nuttier than the tenets of somebody else's religion

even if it's a close relative of one's own, there are going to be aspects of it that look totally insane if one hasn't been brought up since infancy to accept them.

All religions look nutty to me, but I'll defend anyone's right to have one of them. The rhetorical gloves come off, though, when one religion or another turns dangerous, like the various Wahab offshoots of Sunni Islam or the Christian zealots who want to strip all civil rights from women on the off chance they might get pregnant. When they become dangerous, they can expect snark, ridicule, satire, parody, and every other laughter provoking tactic.

Zealots hate laughter almost as much as they hate love.

[valerief]

91. This OP is the handiwork of the Devil!

[alfredo]

94. I really like your writing.

[Ramses]

95. One hell of a good post

Bravo!

[PeaceNikki]

98. By the way, you did it, genwah. you're officially "cool"

Mobile view

[tavalon]

106. Sheeit,

you think you're gonna get banned for something like this? No way. Mocked, debated, mobbed by angry_________, but banned, no. This isn't trolling, it's just an unpopular opinion re: the religion, not the rest of it.

I would trade out fundamentalist religion for the overarching religion and I think you've got a good 'un here. Why would I make that distinction? Well, because I was raised in a fundamentalist sect, got out of there as soon as possible and then went on to have more than one pretty direct brain to _______________ that I couldn't and can't explain. And only one was a NDE, so ? Anyway, I finally settled it for myself by deciding that whatever one believes, that's cool as long as they don't kick sand in my face. It's one of the small beefs I have with Bill Maher - dude, I'm okay with your atheism, just quit hitting me over the head with it.

Religion is just window dressing over something we can't wrap our minds around, whether it be God, Goddess, black holes in the Cosmos, or the seconds that seem to spread to lifetimes as ketamine floods our dying brains, whatever.

I chose Wicca. I liked how it spoke to me. I always joke that I let Jesus play in my sandbox because he's cool but his dad doesn't play well with others, so fuck him. I've met fundamentalist Wiccans and they are as amusing and horrifying as fundamentalist Christians or fundamentalist Muslims. Small minds have the fundies.

[Heidi]

110. Thank you, genwah!

Recommended and kicked.

[Scuba]

119. Great post. Thank, genwah. Two points ....

First, you're correct that DUers do a lot more talking (typing) than doing. A year or so ago I posted multiple requests for ideas about what member's local Democratic Party offices were doing to nurture effective candidates and help them win elections. The lack of response was very telling.

Secondly, as a scientist and an atheist I'm also dismayed at the idea that we need some invisible guy in the sky to feel whole, yet I do understand how people get comfort and help create a more peaceful world through spirituality. That said, I think organized religion does far more harm than good.

Again, thanks for your post.

[genwah]

133. Thank you!

We're over here now; http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026101539

[freedom fighter jh]

120. The world we live in is not enough?

Very thoughtful post.

The world each of us lives in has two components: the real world out there plus what we bring to it with our mindset. What we bring to it (1) is not always good and (2) can be changed. Through meditation you can slow down the swirling winds that keep all kinds of crap suspended in the air around you and obstruct your view. In other words, meditation -- spirituality, perhaps -- can give you a better picture of the world around you, a more accurate picture of the world you live in. It's a picture you see yourself, with your own eyes, once you start learning to look past distractions and obstacles. If, as it seems, truth is what you are seeking, then you may not want to rule out spirituality.

Hey, are you really Chinese Jewish American? So are my kids (Chinese on their father's side, Jewish on mine).

[voteearlyvoteoften]

121. Right on Genwah. But there is wheat amongst the chaff. (Not a GMO thread)

I only point this out because DU is really a bunch of whiny people who will follow any OP to snark and distract from what the OP's author intends, instead of actually DOING SOMETHING.

[daleanime]

122. Can we convince you to post more often?

[1StrongBlackMan]

125. I must say this OP was an rntertaining read ...

What the Hell is wrong with scientifically proven pragmatism that you find it insufficient for your needs?

But, I suspect you answer that question in the question:

What the Hell is wrong with scientifically proven pragmatism that you find it insufficient for your needs?

The person you question finds them insufficient BECAUSE they find it insufficient to meet THEIR needs ...which is wholly unrelated to YOUR needs, and does not require your approval or understanding, as it is THEIR need.

BTW ...

I mean we as a species have made Invisible Friends that are telling us to do all of this crappy stuff, can we make one that feeds and clothes the poor among us? One that says taxes are okay because what is Caesar's should be accountable to Cesar? Oh, wait, I've heard that last one somewhere...it would be nice to fix some roads and bridges and the Caesar stuff

Even I, as a "different, though leaning towards, non-believer", I recognize that the "Invisible Friend(s)" has implored his/her "believers" to do exactly that ... in the unimpeachable text of his/her words ... no "interpretation" necessary; whereas, the "crappy stuff" ... well, that DOES require some interpretive liberties.

What I find continuingly baffling, is why so many feel the need to, put so much energy into, convince(ing) others (be it the "believer" or the audience) of that which, you (in the generic) acknowledge cannot be done?

Is it merely your "need" to be "right"? Or, perhaps, it's an expression/manifestation of your (again, in the generic) continuing attempt to convince yourself?

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

126. Thank you, genwah!

Best post here in a very looooog time! Loved every word of your OP and the comments that followed. I agree with others, you need to post more.

[NastyRiffraff]

129. BRAVO!

Yes, in all caps. I don't agree with everything you wrote, but the underlying philosophy is dead on. (BTW, please don't mock chicken fried steak, especially with that white gravy!)

[marym625]

132. Yeah, well,

What kind of pie?


Dig the post! Thanks!

[JonLP24]

138. Flat earth was solved during the Ancient Greece period

I find the advances in mathematics & rise of civilization which Babylonian (Mesopotamia) laid the foundation for which the ancient Greece made significant advances on. If I'm not mistaken, the flat earth was solved by looking at the all the other planets & moons in the sky with the realization that they are round so the earth must be round too. Either way, they made significant advances in the field of astronomy & geometry.

Muslim mathematics were apart of the stages in the rise of civilizations but their main contributions were in the field of algebra(which is an arabic word), calculus, & improvements on Greek discoveries such as irrational numbers which was in their area of specialty when it came to decimal points & in the area of geometry.

Areas such as freedoms in terms of multiculturalism & overall were generally further advanced than the Roman Empire in terms of civilization during the same time period.

On edit - something like negative numbers was something that was viewed as controversial similar to irrational numbers which they didn't like which didn't help when it came to geometry but I'm sure a mathematician can explain how they can since designs require precise numbers which engineers round but something like a rounded decimal point number can lead to collapses of bridges (someone else can better explain than I can).

[Beowulf42]

139. Nice article

but it's sad that your BS degree and your Mensa-type mind doesn't know the difference between lead and led. Lead is lead, lead is lead, and led is led. Your welcome.

[sarcasmo]

140. Kick.

[Roy Rolling]

142. Seeking fame and attention

Seeking fame and attention for being a detractor of others' ideas, without a definitive philosophy of your own, is the same obstructionist tactic of the Republicans. I admire your independence, but the ambition to be a famous critic of others always depends on the ideas of someone else for you to have relevance. I suspect you will tire of that approach.

[Cryptoad]

144. Hate is Hate,,,, not matter whose doing the mocking,,,, nt