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kpete

(71,900 posts)
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 10:09 AM Jan 2015

“I can’t believe the president signed off on that program. I can’t believe it.” He kept saying it.

PRISON DISPATCHES FROM THE WAR ON TERROR: EX-CIA OFFICER JOHN KIRIAKOU SPEAKS

There have been some who have tried to exempt George W. Bush from any blame from the program. They claim that he knew about the specifics in 2006, as the report mentions. Do you agree with that assessment from those defending him?

That’s just simply not true. They knew about it all the way up to the top. I remember sitting at a meeting with one of the top three officials at the CIA when the program was approved. And throughout the conversation, he kept on saying, “I can’t believe the president signed off on that program. I can’t believe it.” He kept saying it. Because it was so radical and violent that even internally we didn’t think there would be permission forthcoming. And there was. And it got out of hand, and it was a slippery slope and the ball kept rolling down the hill. And the next thing you know, we’re killing people.




As a CIA agent for 18 years, what is your summary of this program from both an operating perspective and a moral one?

When I was in the counter terrorism center, an official came up to me and asked me if I wanted to be certified in the enhanced interrogation techniques. And I said, “Look, I have a moral problem with this. I think there’s a slippery slope, I think somebody is going to get killed. There’s going to be an investigation. And a bunch of people are going to go to prison, and I don’t want any part of it.” And ironically, I was the only one who went to prison.



lots more interesting stuff:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/19/cia-agent-jailed-john-kiriakous-long-road-era-torture/

54 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
“I can’t believe the president signed off on that program. I can’t believe it.” He kept saying it. (Original Post) kpete Jan 2015 OP
Neither the irony nor the lesson of that outcome is lost on many of us leveymg Jan 2015 #1
That is exactly correct. eom JEB Jan 2015 #11
+1 BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #25
Correct malaise Jan 2015 #47
This is just TMI!! We knew it all along. 7wo7rees Jan 2015 #2
and a big K & R! n/t wildbilln864 Jan 2015 #3
Who knew the next president would be part of the cover-up. lark Jan 2015 #4
What is even more crazy Frosty1 Jan 2015 #6
And if the Republicans were willing to out a CIA agent ... staggerleem Jan 2015 #34
Scooter Libby was the fall guy for the Valerie Plame episode Art_from_Ark Jan 2015 #40
It wasn't just Plame outed, it was an entire network she headed. Lars39 Jan 2015 #49
+1 grahamhgreen Jan 2015 #23
Obama knew it would never pass, so he didnt waste his time on it. 7962 Jan 2015 #35
That was a good article (nt) Babel_17 Jan 2015 #5
Last I posted here about Kirakou, I was lambasted Triana Jan 2015 #7
That was one or two trolls. leveymg Jan 2015 #13
Some here don't approve of anyone speaking out against authority. They openly disparage all rhett o rick Jan 2015 #17
kick for visibility. nt navarth Jan 2015 #8
If the president does it it's not illegal. Especially presidents of the BFEE. Octafish Jan 2015 #9
Great cartoon! trusty elf Jan 2015 #10
Good one!! nt Duval Jan 2015 #16
Love the pretzel hood ornament. brer cat Jan 2015 #37
him and the 2 grunts. mopinko Jan 2015 #12
Excellent question! JDPriestly Jan 2015 #28
In honor of this post... MrMickeysMom Jan 2015 #14
kpete, I'm glad that Duval Jan 2015 #15
Only a coordinated attack, invasion and occupation by the Russian Federation and KingCharlemagne Jan 2015 #18
light is our only weapon kpete Jan 2015 #19
I won't, kp. Thanks nt Duval Jan 2015 #22
Not joining the ICC 2naSalit Jan 2015 #20
K & R for a great article.. mountain grammy Jan 2015 #21
To be honest, I think that's not really true BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #24
I hope you're right. I've raised 3 liberals mountain grammy Jan 2015 #42
They say that positive experiences before one is 20 years old can shape a person BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #44
Right there with you. 7wo7rees Jan 2015 #26
I got it thanks. mountain grammy Jan 2015 #43
Oh, come now. If that was the case Obama wouldnt have easily won 2 elections! nt 7962 Jan 2015 #36
This comment does not make sense to me: JDPriestly Jan 2015 #27
I think you are onto something here. Jamastiene Jan 2015 #52
wait. I thought kiriakou was a torture apologist or something? yodermon Jan 2015 #29
You ask a very good question Oilwellian Jan 2015 #32
... napkinz Jan 2015 #30
I want to live in that Universe. BlueJazz Jan 2015 #51
NO ONE can ever convince me that dubya didn't know. calimary Jan 2015 #31
Not only that, but he was proud of his record number of executions Art_from_Ark Jan 2015 #45
You remember how it was emphasized that Dubya Lars39 Jan 2015 #50
He was the family "problem child." calimary Jan 2015 #53
Totally agree! Lars39 Jan 2015 #54
Huge K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Jan 2015 #33
n/t blkmusclmachine Jan 2015 #38
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2012/12/Obama_Fiscal_Cliff-0e5c7-588-copy.jpg blkmusclmachine Jan 2015 #39
K&R. Thanks for posting. Mr_Jefferson_24 Jan 2015 #41
Doesn't matter. We looked forward in 2009. End of story. merrily Jan 2015 #46
I am encouraged to see this post has hundreds of recommendations. Enthusiast Jan 2015 #48

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
1. Neither the irony nor the lesson of that outcome is lost on many of us
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 10:21 AM
Jan 2015

A system that can't impose accountability for even the worst crimes -- aggressive wars, mass murder, and torture -- has a limited shelf-life, and isn't worth fighting for.

Empires fall from the top down.

malaise

(267,809 posts)
47. Correct
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 06:05 AM
Jan 2015

Sadly the only thing on the agenda is American control of the planet and they will take everyone and everything down in the process.

7wo7rees

(5,128 posts)
2. This is just TMI!! We knew it all along.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 10:24 AM
Jan 2015

If we do not hold these people to account for their crimes in our silence we will be complicit.

It is heartbreaking.

This is just so wrong.

Criminal, period.

lark

(23,003 posts)
4. Who knew the next president would be part of the cover-up.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 10:44 AM
Jan 2015

One of the worst things Obama has done (and he has done some good things too) is aiding and abetting torture by refusing to prosecute or even investigate those who were responsible for the program. Not sure which president allowed him to be sent to jail, but even if it was Bush, Obama should have pardonned him. If Obama's admin. sent him to jail, that's just reprehensible.

Frosty1

(1,823 posts)
6. What is even more crazy
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 10:58 AM
Jan 2015

Cheney and Carl Rove outed Valerie Plame and not a word was said...no charges no reaction at all from the powers that be.

 

staggerleem

(469 posts)
34. And if the Republicans were willing to out a CIA agent ...
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 06:03 PM
Jan 2015

... who was really a neutral party (her husband had crossed them) to cover their sorry butts, IMAGINE what they'd do to an outgoing Democratic President who put "their guys" behind bars. Obama would be absolutely crucified, by the right, and by the media in their hip pocket, if he tried to jail Bush & Cheney.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
40. Scooter Libby was the fall guy for the Valerie Plame episode
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 10:01 PM
Jan 2015

And he was granted clemency by bu$h so he didn't have to serve jail time (but apparently did have to pay a fine).

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
35. Obama knew it would never pass, so he didnt waste his time on it.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 06:31 PM
Jan 2015

He also knew that a lot of the country would look at it as just getting back at bush.
All imo, but I can see him thinking that way.

 

Triana

(22,666 posts)
7. Last I posted here about Kirakou, I was lambasted
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 11:05 AM
Jan 2015

I was told he knew of the torture and thus was guilty as charged and that I should not "defend" him. Or some such thing.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
13. That was one or two trolls.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 12:27 PM
Jan 2015

Kirakou is on the High Priority Target list for character assassination. He got The Ten Minute Hate treatment.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
17. Some here don't approve of anyone speaking out against authority. They openly disparage all
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 12:48 PM
Jan 2015

whistle-blowers, investigative journalists, protestors esp. OWS, etc. It's a self-righteousness that rationalizes hatred for those that challenge the system by pointing out that "they are breaking the law." To fight tyranny one must break laws. Our founders broke laws as did Martin Luther King Jr. (happy birthday Mr. King). Many in this country have brought up to never question authority. Subjects are much easier to handle those that obey w/o question.

mopinko

(69,806 posts)
12. him and the 2 grunts.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 12:06 PM
Jan 2015

lyndi england ? and i forgot the dudes name.

why didnt the pres pardon them, if he thought it was not criminal?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
28. Excellent question!
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 03:15 PM
Jan 2015

My guess at the answer: They thought they would get by with the torture without anyone finding out.

They thought that by prosecuting "torturers," they could avoid scrutiny for their own actions. It would be interesting to find out what their thoughts were very precisely on this and why they did not speak out and exonerate those lower level military guards who were carrying out pretty effectively the orders and the spirit of the orders from the top.

I would like to see interviews of England and Graner and hear their views on whether Bush and Cheney and the rest should face prosecution for torture.

MrMickeysMom

(20,453 posts)
14. In honor of this post...
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 12:34 PM
Jan 2015

I shall mount my newest bumper sticker (rear window, driver's side).. "Bush/Cheney for Prison".

I want each one of them, especially Cheney, to live long in jail. I woman can dream, can't she?

 

Duval

(4,280 posts)
15. kpete, I'm glad that
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 12:44 PM
Jan 2015

you have shed more light on this terrible chapter in our history. Those responsible should be prosecuted, but I don't see it happening anytime soon, if ever. Too bad we are not members of the ICC, but I believe not joining was yet another well thought out move.




 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
18. Only a coordinated attack, invasion and occupation by the Russian Federation and
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 12:51 PM
Jan 2015

People's Republic of China offers any prospect of bringing our war criminals and their aiders and abettors to justice now. I'll leave it to you to determine how plausible a scenario you think that might be. Myself, I don't see it happening any time soon. Bush and Cheney and their Junta quite literally got away with murder.

2naSalit

(86,054 posts)
20. Not joining the ICC
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 12:57 PM
Jan 2015

was a deliberate act and it was totally due to the fact that the b/c admin. had planned on starting these wars before they were selected by the SCOTUS. I have absolutely NO DOUBT and was of that opinion from the ugly day in Dec. 2000 that our alleged arbiters of public dispute decided to select the regime we got.


I'm still having problems about that and everything that has come to pass since.

mountain grammy

(26,568 posts)
21. K & R for a great article..
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 01:00 PM
Jan 2015

This is the biggest failure of the Obama administration. Yet, given the reaction of Americans to the Senate report, I doubt the administration would have had the support of the people, and for sure not the corporate media, for criminal trials. Is it right? Of course not. By doing nothing we are all complicate and I, for one, resent it.

I don't feel like an American these days, I haven't in a long time. The battle for the hearts and minds of Americans has been won by right wing Republicans, with the enormous help of the corporate media.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
24. To be honest, I think that's not really true
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 02:38 PM
Jan 2015

I think the media portrays us as a very conservative country, but when you look at polls you see that most people do have rather liberal ideas. It's just that liberals are being concentrated in the cities and the coasts, so when you look at a map, it seems like the whole country is red. By landmass it is, but by population, the Republicans don't have the math to win a national election for the foreseeable future. They don't have the votes to win the electoral college. That's why Democrats do get to pick who they want as their candidate.

But more importantly, it is now more important than ever that liberal parents pass on their values to their children because they're not going to get it from the media. Even channels that once masqueraded as liberal such as MSNBC and NPR have gone conservative. It's up to the parents to let their children know what life was like before Reaganomics. It's only been thirty years, but so much damage has been done and if you were born during this time, you have always lived under trickle down and neoliberalism. Travel, teach, discuss, but don't let those ideas die out.

mountain grammy

(26,568 posts)
42. I hope you're right. I've raised 3 liberals
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 01:12 AM
Jan 2015

Despite the fact 2 of them have a wingnut Dad. Thankfully they see him for the racist he is. He wasn't that bad when I married him over 40 years ago. Nobody was. You're right about that too.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
44. They say that positive experiences before one is 20 years old can shape a person
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 02:20 AM
Jan 2015

In the book, The Authoritarians, which I've been recommending to everyone, it shows that if one is only exposed to conservative ideas during your childhood and teen years, one remains a conservative throughout your life. That's why the incredible rise of religious schools, all the way up through college, so children are not exposed to liberal ideas at all. They even made their own channel, Fox News. It's eerie and scary. But it sounds like you did a HUGE favor for your children by exposing them to ideas of empathy and kindness. They are very lucky!

7wo7rees

(5,128 posts)
26. Right there with you.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 02:42 PM
Jan 2015

What to do? We seriously dont know anymore. We just do not.

This was meant to be a response to mountain grammy.Not sure what happened. ?

mountain grammy

(26,568 posts)
43. I got it thanks.
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 01:26 AM
Jan 2015

I don't know. I'm a member and contributor to several liberal groups and free speech TV. I volunteer for Planned Parenthood and work with local Dem's but the situation is dire in my opinion. We lost our Senate seat to a teabagger who for some reason was the golden boy of Colorado media. Go figure.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
27. This comment does not make sense to me:
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 03:07 PM
Jan 2015

Editor’s note: It’s been reported that the decision to tape the CIA interrogations “was made in the field.” The tapings began taking place roughly around the time Rodriguez became director of the CIA’s Counterterrorism Center. Rodriguez said in a 60 Minutes interview, “The reason why we taped Abu Zubaydah was because….we wanted to show the world that we actually had nothing to do with his death.” It’s not clear if he personally decided to make the tapes.


https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/19/cia-agent-jailed-john-kiriakous-long-road-era-torture/

If that is what Rodriguez said, it makes no sense. They had to have made the tapes while Abu Zubaydah was alive. How would they have known that they would need tapes to "show the world that we actually had nothing to do with his death" before his death had occurred? Did they knowingly risk his death and make tapes so that they would be able to cover it up? I don't know, but this makes no sense.

Maybe they were just sadistic. Maybe they actually hoped to show they did kill him. I don't know. But that statement does not work for me.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/19/cia-agent-jailed-john-kiriakous-long-road-era-torture/

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
52. I think you are onto something here.
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 09:08 AM
Jan 2015

That is a very odd statement. It is not just very odd, it is a weak spot in their claims. Very interesting. Thank you for pointing that out.

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
32. You ask a very good question
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 04:13 PM
Jan 2015

He played a key role in catapulting the propaganda that said torture worked. I'm not buying his revised version of himself.

calimary

(80,693 posts)
31. NO ONE can ever convince me that dubya didn't know.
Mon Jan 19, 2015, 03:29 PM
Jan 2015

Hell, he probably went out and bought the popcorn to bring back to the Situation Room so they could watch and celebrate.

He was sadistic as a kid. One tip-off, as I've read over and over again, is how a child treats a small animal. If the child brutalizes it, or tortures it, that tells you something about that child - that is VERY off. VERY much in need of checking. VERY much in need of further scrutiny - so he or she doesn't grow up to be abusive to family, presumed lovers, children, or whoever else it might be. He used to revel in putting fire crackers into the mouths of frogs and then throwing them up into the air to watch them explode. He loved it. I've read things about that - he laughed and cackled and loved it.

Now, that kid with that UN-checked horrible behavior grows up and impossibly gets to be President. That behavior has NEVER been checked or punished or discouraged, evidently. Because he (as "president&quot is the one who had to sign off on it, even if he was just cheney's puppet. cheney needed the dubya signature on that. Knew he didn't even need to forge it, he'd just say "we need it mr. 'president'" and he knew it'd be done. He'd be happy (deliriously so) to carry out the policy as so approved. He was delighted to handle the dirty work so, once again, little boots wouldn't have to get his own nice soft white hands dirty. And that, if we recall, was the pattern of the phony cowboy throughout his life, whether it involved his sociopathic and even psychopathic behavior in college (that lovely Skull and Bones abomination) or hiding out in the "champagne squadron" of the Texas Air National Guard during Vietnam, or in business when he tanked several Texas oil companies one-after-another.

It was ALWAYS somebody else's fault, or something else - Daddy and his rich friends swooped in to rescue him and pull his sorry ass out of a jam. No blow EVER landed on him. But he's as guilty as they come.

I'M certainly not giving him a pass.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
45. Not only that, but he was proud of his record number of executions
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 04:02 AM
Jan 2015

and that he didn't spend even 10 minutes reviewing inmates' cases before signing their death warrants.

Lars39

(26,093 posts)
50. You remember how it was emphasized that Dubya
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 08:29 AM
Jan 2015

had never traveled outside the US? And then a few years ago we find out that he at least went to Scotland as a teen? Shipped to Poppy's friend's estate for the summer.
I think they shipped him off somewhere every summer they could.
I think summering with the Saudi Royals and seeing their executions would also account for some of Dubya's bloodlust.
Just my little theory.
Also been wondering how much the Bush family helped Bandar's rise to power over the years.

calimary

(80,693 posts)
53. He was the family "problem child."
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 01:48 PM
Jan 2015

None of the bushes figured he'd go all the way. I remember an article written about how dubya, in essence, fucked the family calculus when he incredibly won his race for Texas governor. The family plan was that jebbie was gonna win in Florida and his dingdong brother would put up a respectable showing in Texas and lose, and then the way would be clear for jebbie to be the anointed one and go for the BIG job from that Florida platform. And guess what happened? The exact opposite. jebbie LOST his first attempt in Florida while his idiot brother won in Texas, and that changed everything. So guess which hapless twit got an accidental advance farther up on the game board. And the job dear little george did in the White House was so foul that the fear was - the bush family dream of being the NEW "American Royal Family" was dashed. The public would be too soured on the bush brand from then on.

I still doubt jebbie will go all the way. Too many of us remember what a bush in the White House does for America. Or more accurately, what a bush in the White House does TO America. He's just dubya Lite. If he decides to go ahead with it, he'll be running basically on the "I'm not as bad as my brother" platform.

And let's all remember what happened to the Dems last fall when they essentially ran on the "we're not as bad as the GOP" platform.

SCREW the "not as bad as..." platform. "Not as bad as..." is NO way to fire up voters and motivate them to get off their lazy apathetic butts and flock to the polls. How'd that work out for our side last November? "Not as bad as..." is NO way to win. And if they go with jebbie, that's essentially what they'll have. (If they try romney again - JEEZ. That's already a proven loser too. You REALLY wanna risk that again, CONS?)

Voters want to be motivated to come out FOR something or someone. There will likely be a built-in flimsy-ness about that. The GOP will struggle to come out in a half-hearted effort. He won't be CON enough for the hard-asses OR for the nutcases who hold increasing power and sway in that God-forsaken party. So they'll have to work hard to "get it up" to go punch a ticket for him. They don't like settling for "next-best" when there are so many certified crackpots who'll be left waiting at the edge of the dance floor again for the sake of advancing "Mr. Mushy Middle". They don't want to go moderate. Moderate is anathema to those assholes. There are many voices in that tribe that whine and mewl about how the reason they haven't won in the last two Presidential cycles is that they didn't have a candidate who was CONservative-ENOUGH. And there likely won't be enough moderate or independent votes to offset the teabagger contingent which can likely be expected to do what they always tend to do: pout. And take their ball and go home, infantile spoiled-sports that they are.

If Hillary's really smart, she'll embrace more of the Elizabeth Warren mindset - not only just giving it lip-service but inviting it in to a place at the table, the way Harry Reid wised up and did in the Senate.

Lars39

(26,093 posts)
54. Totally agree!
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 02:17 PM
Jan 2015

the clown car is already revving its engine to try to make Jeb look moderate, but I don't think it's going to work.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
46. Doesn't matter. We looked forward in 2009. End of story.
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 05:49 AM
Jan 2015

A Spanish judge tried to do something, until someone in the US had a word with the Spanish govt. After that, the Spanish judge seemed to lose interest and so did everyone else.

From time to time, Amnesty International claimed that torture continued under Obama in extraordinary rendition sites, like Syria, and in black holes, like Bagram. Even in Gitmo.

Did it? I take AI at its word but, first hand, I have no clue. However, according to official figures, drone killings have increased six or eight times over under Obama and I don't know why the Obama admin would lie about that.


Eventually, we released some people arrested under Bush that even we said were innocent. That cannot happen with drone killings, not to mention that drones also kill bystanders we know all along we have no reason to kill.

So if you were a Dad of young kids, esp. in a country where women don't necessarily get great jobs, would you rather have been part of Bush's torture program or of Obama's drone program (with or without alleged rendition and black holes)? Talk about Hobson's Choice.

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