As someone who deals with measurements

[Lurker Deluxe]

I am a machinist. I deal with dimensions and tolerances, all day, everyday.

Pressure is simply another measurement.

When, where, and how is what is all about.

Where is the actual inspection report? The footballs were all "two pounds" under pressure? Not 1.6 to 2.3? No, every one was 2 pounds under? Impossible. Tolerance is what it is, and lacking laboritory conditions, it would be impossible to determine variations at that level.

Much to do about a measurement that was best set down as a reference.

There is no "cheating".

[NutmegYankee]

1. The footballs were probably filled with a small compressor.

Compression of air warms it up since you are doing Work to it. The ball has a rubber bladder which would insulate any extra warmth inside. They then passed inspection and cooled off as the game weather got colder.

Not exactly anything to give two shits about. Especially when the PATs were given balls at proper pressure for the second half and they scored 28-0.

[unblock]

2. more likely such details were lost on reporters.

every article i've ever read where i had independent knowledge of the story had numerous factual errors, particularly when it comes to numbers of any sort.

in fairness, reporters often go from having zero knowledge of a story to publishing a finished story in a matter of just a few hours. so it should come as no surprise that they don't get details right, or just omit them.

[global1]

3. If You Work With Measurements Usually There Are Allowances/Tolerances As Well.....

Something to this effect:

The football must be filled with X psi +/- y psi

This way if one quarterback likes his footballs harder and over inflated - he could push the air to the higher limit (without going over) and if another quarterback likes his footballs softer and under inflated - he could work off the lower limit (without going lower than that limit).

Does anyone know if the NFL has tolerances for the air in a football?

[JaneyVee]

6. Zero tolerance.

Footballs can be scuffed, damaged, laces coming apart, all ok. The only thing not allowed is footballs not properly filled to required psi.

[Lurker Deluxe]

12. No such thing

There is no such thing as "zero tolerance".

Never.

Ever.

There is a tolerance, and to measure that takes calibrated tools and controlled circumstances.

Period.

There are no exceptions.

No such thing as "perfect", no such thing as "zero tolerance". It simply does not exist. There is a tolerance, there is a procedure .. or it does not matter, kinda like the pressure in a football.

Reference.

[JaneyVee]

29. NFL has a standard to which ball must be inflated.

Anything outside that margin is in violation.

[MohRokTah]

7. The official NFL pressure range is 12.5 to 13.5 PSI

11 out of 12 balls measured at 10.5 PSI.

[Lurker Deluxe]

8. Huh

Exactly 10.5?


All of them?

Bullshit.

The tolerance is what? .2, .4 ,.6.

Lies.

[MohRokTah]

14. The offical NFL record is 10.5 PSI on all 11 balls.

Cheaters never prosper.

[jberryhill]

15. But that's the point of the OP

If someone was manually letting the air out, then how did they manage to coincidentally deflate them all to the exact same pressure?

[Lurker Deluxe]

17. exactly

It is simply not possible.

[dilby]

19. Pressure gauge?

I have two tires on my bike, they are both showing exactly 90 PSI when I check them with a gauge. When I inflate them there is a gauge to tell me the PSI while I inflate them, if I go over the amount my tires support I can let air out. I keep my tires at 90 PSI at all times and it's pretty easy to get them exactly to 90.

[Lurker Deluxe]

21. There is no such thing as exact

No such animal.

Never has been, never will be.

Buy a different brand gage, it will read differently. Promise.

What decimal point does your gage read to? .5 or .05.

Huge difference. Calibrated? Pretty sure it is not.

I have bought dial indicators that cost up-wards of $500 just to send them to the cal lab and have them rejected because of deviation. To many variables to think that some locals with zero training in measurement can get a reading of +/- 1 PSI in a locker room will get that right when they come back with 11/11 of a reading with no deviation.

**coughbullshitcough**

[Throd]

24. You're slicing this a little too thin.

This isn't the proper gap between a crank journal and a main bearing cap we're talking about here.

[Lurker Deluxe]

26. your right

it's the difference between a football in arizona on a sunny day and a football in new england when it's raining

[padfun]

28. Thats why they say 10.5 and not

10.50000000000001.

Give it a break. You are being a bit too harsh.

All four of my car tires show 32 psi. If it is 32.1, then so be it. It doesn't mean my car tires are uneven now. It means that the same instrument shows that they are all 32 psi.

So they say they are all 10.5, it does not mean they are exactly to the millionth of a degree, they are just 10.5.

You have to have limits somewhere and in this case, a tenth of a pound is fine.

[Lurker Deluxe]

38. New report

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/new-report-says-only-one-patriots-football-was-seriously-deflated-165514858.html

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000466783/article/more-details-on-the-investigation-of-patriots-deflated-footballs

"Eleven of the 12 footballs used in the first half were judged by the officials to be under the minimum of 12.5 PSI, but just one was two pounds under. Many of them were just a few ticks under the minimum."

So ... what's a "few ticks"?

.01?

Like I said, where is the inspection report? Just another example of people jumping on something before all of the information is out. With no official measurement record this is all BS.

[jberryhill]

22. I think you are missing the point

Yes, I'm a cyclist too and keep my tires at 105.

Got your tires at 90?

Ok, good, now do this...

DEFLATE them, manually, to the same pressure.

Ready, set, go.

[Lurker Deluxe]

27. 11 times

[Lurker Deluxe]

16. exactly?

total bullshit.

period.

all 11 balls had no deviation? they were all exactly 10.5 psi?

pretty sure that is not even possible. zero deviation over 11 test subjects ...

that is one hell of a test.

I'm not a math major, but i would be willing to bet there is one here. extrapolate the possibility of 11-11 with zero deviation within a tolerance of ... oh, wait ... there is no tolerance.

again, impossible.

[JaneyVee]

4. You can easily measure the psi of the ball.

I have a tire inflator with a digital readout.

[Lurker Deluxe]

9. And ...

That devise will read differently depending on many circumstances. Do you think the the PSI will change because of temperature?

One PSI?

Ask the guy inflating your tires at the tire store to get all your tiers withing one PSI and see what he tells you.

Then drive over to the next tire shop and ask him to measure them.

[JaneyVee]

30. I PROMISE YOU THIS IS VERY SIMPLE.

I do it all the time. I fill my tires to the exact same psi. The digital readout makes it very easy. Goes in .5 intervals.

[NutmegYankee]

33. Digital means nothing for accuracy.

I had a guy with a 5000 psig gauge do a test using that gage to prove a pipe was pressurized to 100 +/- 1 psi. He said it read a perfect 100 psig. Only problem- the gauge has a 1% full range of scale accuracy. So any answer it gives could be off by as much as 50 psig. The pipe could have had 50 - 150 psig and it would still read 100.

[jberryhill]

35. You don't deflate them to the same pressure

We are talking about someone doing this surreptitiously with an inflation needle.

And the fact that a pressure gauge can have a digital display has nothing to do with the actual accuracy of the cheap spring mechanism inside it.

[Throd]

5. It's not impossible by any means.

I also deal with dimensions and tolerances everyday.

[Lurker Deluxe]

10. Completely impossible

Anyone who knows anything about measurement will tell you that if you do not let the units being compared come to the same temperature and pressure, the readings will be false. Something that is not possible in a 30 minute period.

Period.

A one PSI difference can be as simple as a variation in temperature, altitude, or deviation in devise.

[madokie]

11. You said it and I agree

I'm a wanta be machinist. Actually I wouldn't make a pimple on a machinist ass though but I do under stand differences due to temperature.

[madokie]

13. I'll buy a regulation foot ball this weekend and see for myself what the difference

between 72 and 50 degree on the pressure is. I've been doing things like this my whole life and in a lot of way that is the reason many of the people I know in real life hold my opinion in high regard. Whats a ball going to cost in comparison to the knowledge I gain, not much.
I do my homework

[FSogol]

18. You won't be able to measure the difference in pressure for a change from 72 deg F to 50 deg F.

That's only a delta T of 22 deg. You'll need a temperature differential of about 60-80 deg to notice a difference. If it was below zero (F) that day, I could buy the argument that the balls deflated on their own.

However, with an air compressor with a good regulator, you could easily inflate or deflate balls to 10.5 PSI or whatever value you want.

[Blue_Tires]

20. So you're saying there's no way to inflate/deflate a football

to within a preset pressure say; plus or minus 3%? Which the media just rounds to 2 psi instead of listing the exact pressure of each ball to three decimal points?

Just read the league report when it comes out along with everyone else...

And what are you even bitching about anyway? It's not like the league is going to do anything to damage the reputation of its golden boys...

[MohRokTah]

23. Precisely, the team will be fined and that will be that. eom

[Lurker Deluxe]

25. sorry to ruin your evening

I'm just sitting here after a days work entertaining myself on a website.

If you choose not to engage, do not.

I am simply saying, that it is not possible for someone with no proper training, improper equipment, and an uncontrolled environment, to measure within +/- 1 PSI accurately the pressure of any thing.

Unless, of coarse, they have been drinking heavily ... which seems to be mandatory for an NFL official.

[JaneyVee]

31. What makes you think whoever did it....

Didn't have proper training? It is very easy to remove air from 11 balls to the exact same psi.

[Blue_Tires]

37. The balls were weighed on a scale

a milligram scale, iirc (and yes, compressed air does have weight, so once you subtract the physical weight of the ball itself, it's a simple conversion)...So I'm guessing the measurements were quite exact

[Orrex]

41. Just a damn minute.

Air has weight? When did this start?

Next you'll tell me it isn't really lead in pencils.


To hell with your science!

[cloudbase]

32. They'll solve it on the next episode of

PSI New England.

[pinboy3niner]

34. *snort*

[moondust]

36. What about materials?

Apparently the teams furnish their own footballs which implies that they may not all be made by the same manufacturer. If the Patriots' manufacturer uses a slightly thinner or more porous pigskin than the Colts, would that not explain slight differences in pressure as conditions on the field change?

[Wounded Bear]

39. Nope...

There is only one approved manufacturer. Wilson.

So, it'll Wilson trowing a Wilson ball to Willson.

[madokie]

40. exactly

All but one was 2 psi low. Can't happen by chance or by purpose without seriously serious conditions being met

[Lurker Deluxe]

43. new report

Says only one was two psi low, the others were, "just a couple ticks off".

[madokie]

44. In other words the whole thing was a sham

and big time bullshit
Like I was saying to my wife the talking heads had to have some thing to try to convince us they had a reason to be so they talk this bullshit. Trouble is they know that we know its all bullshit but that doesn't or won't change their behavior in the future.

Its all insane

[DrDan]

42. Patriot fan