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madokie

(51,076 posts)
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 09:36 PM Jan 2015

Air Pressure. For what its worth

this morning when it was 30 degrees out I checked the air pressure in my left front tire on my f150 and it was a tad under 34 PSI. About 5 o:clock this afternoon when the temperature was 60 degrees out I checked the same tires pressure and it was a tad over 38 PSI, a 4 1/2 PSI difference. I was using a high performance dial gauge and using the same gauge for both readings. I grant you my tire is much larger than a football and it was a 30 degree temperature difference. I was amazed that the Air pressure varied that much.

I learned something new today and I hope this encourages anyone else to do the same thing and see what you get. In life I've learned that if I want to know something for sure and if its something I can do, I will do an experiment to find out. Throughout the 66 plus years I've lived I've learned a lot and have put to rest a lot of old wives tales in the process.

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Ruby the Liberal

(26,219 posts)
2. This is what worries me
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:01 PM
Jan 2015

My tire pressure light has only ever gone off 2x in 8 years, so last week when it did, I put air in the tires. They should be 32, all were ~26. Even air missing, so I don't think any are leaking.

My concern is that I am going to be overinflated when this weather turns warm. Don't think the indicator lights for that...

(Yes, I know this was about football, but it caught my eye. )

pscot

(21,024 posts)
4. Do you inflate to the rec on the door jamb
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:18 PM
Jan 2015

or to what it says on the tire? You should always go with what it says on the door sticker..

madokie

(51,076 posts)
12. Personally what I do is look to see where the tire is touching the road surface.
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:34 PM
Jan 2015

an over inflated tire will not be making contact with the road surface all the way to the edge of the tread where an under inflated tire will show that its making contact with the road past the shoulder of the tire tread.
Our ford focus sticker says 35 front and rear. I find that at that pressure the front tires are under inflated and the rears are over inflated so i run 37 PSI in the front tires and 34 in the rear tires. The tire patch where the tire touches the road is the same at those pressures front and rear and exactly where they're designed by the tire manufacturer to be.

Thats what I've been doing for years anyway and will continue to do and thats the main reason I don't put nitrogen in my tires because when I have them rotated the pressures will be off.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
6. Ruby you can always have your tires filled with Nitrogen rather than air
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:24 PM
Jan 2015

Around here to fill your tires with nitrogen cost 20 bucks or so for all four tires. People who do have their tires filled with nitrogen say they get that cost back in longer tread life because of the more consistent tire inflation. I've threatened to do it a couple times but so far I've not done it. I check my tire pressure at least monthly as a precaution against having a nail in a tire and it slowly deflating and ultimately ruining a tire due to driving with low air pressure. Tire gauges are cheap.

Is Nitrogen Better than Air in Car Tires?


Q: Is there any advantage to using nitrogen instead of compressed air in tires? Will I notice improved fuel economy or a smoother ride? Will my tires last longer?

A: Sort of. From the top: Air is 78 percent nitrogen, just under 21 percent oxygen, and the rest is water vapor, CO2 and small concentrations of noble gases such as neon and argon. We can ignore the other gases.

There are several compelling reasons to use pure nitrogen in tires.

First is that nitrogen is less likely to migrate through tire rubber than is oxygen, which means that your tire pressures will remain more stable over the long term. Racers figured out pretty quickly that tires filled with nitrogen rather than air also exhibit less pressure change with temperature swings. That means more consistent inflation pressures during a race as the tires heat up. And when you're tweaking a race car's handling with half-psi changes, that's important.

Passenger cars can also benefit from the more stable pressures. But there's more: Humidity (water) is a Bad Thing to have inside a tire. Water, present as a vapor or even as a liquid in a tire, causes more of a pressure change with temperature swings than dry air does. It also promotes corrosion of the steel or aluminum rim.

If I ever need to top off a tire when I'm out on the road, I'll always briefly depress the tire chuck's valve with my thumbnail and vent some air. If my thumb gets wet, there's water in the line. Some gas stations don't do a very good job of keeping the humidity out of their air system. I don't even like to use a water-based tire-mounting lubricant unless I can let the tire bake in the sun for a couple of hours before I air it up and seat the bead. I've dismounted tires (not mine) that had several quarts of water inside—probably from a compressed-air hose that collected water and was never purged properly.

How is water relevant to a nitrogen discussion? Any system that delivers pure nitrogen is also going to deliver dry nitrogen. Filling tires with nitrogen involves filling and purging several times in succession, serially diluting the concentration of oxygen in the tire. This will also remove any water.

It's certainly simple, although time-consuming, for a tire technician to fill and bleed tires. But most shops use a machine that not only generates almost pure nitrogen by straining the oxygen out of shop-compressed air, but will also automatically go through several purge cycles unattended. Some shops have been charging as much as $30 per tire for this service. I think that's too much. If you're buying a new tire, it should be far less. Still, the nitrogen generator, filling system and technician's time aren't free—the dealer is entitled to some return for that.

So, to answer your specific questions: With nitrogen, your tire pressures will remain more constant, saving you a small amount in fuel and tire-maintenance costs. There will be less moisture inside your tires, meaning less corrosion on your wheels. You will not be able to feel any difference in the ride or handling or braking, unless your tire pressures were seriously out of spec and changing to nitrogen brought them back to the proper numbers.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/repair-questions/4302788

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
10. our atmosphere is ~70% nitrogen
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:31 PM
Jan 2015

so paying for pure nitrogen is really just paying for ~30% nitrogen

madokie

(51,076 posts)
13. Every one knows that
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:39 PM
Jan 2015

taking that from the geico ads.
Nitrogen is a larger molecule and is easier to keep in a tire. Air is smaller and will migrate through the tire as time goes on.

Actually nitrogen makes up 78% of our air
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth

TexasProgresive

(12,157 posts)
16. I think the advantage of nitrogen over air
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 11:23 PM
Jan 2015

is moisture. The nitrogen used is completely moisture free. The water vapor in air tends to cause higher pressure fluctuation due to temperature. Or at least that is what we believed when I was drag racing. We would do any thing to get more consistent ETs (elapsed time).

madokie

(51,076 posts)
17. For the average driver the advantage of Nitrogen over air
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 11:31 PM
Jan 2015

is a more consistent pressure hence longer tread life. Plus nitrogen doesn't slowly leak out like air does. If you haven't checked the air pressure in your spare I advise you do and if its been a year or so you will see that it will have low air pressure due to that leakage I spoke of.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
7. they didn't?
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:26 PM
Jan 2015

So you are my neighbor and I didn't even know it, amazing.
Its a small world we live in

madokie

(51,076 posts)
15. as you can see on this gauge like I have a tad can be about a quarter pound
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:55 PM
Jan 2015
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR-J3tBVcrZGp8m8LWlK9TvDdBDGdZYyCqujeMw8srxCxRxzQss
Sorry I couldn't get the picture to post so you'll have to click the link

so 2 tads make 1/2
 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
9. This should all go without saying...
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:29 PM
Jan 2015

since there is no doubt that the temperature can affect the pressure in anything from a football to a car tire to a blimp.


If we do address the Pats issue directly, there were 11 out of 12 footballs that were under inflated.

I need an explanation as to why that 12th football was not affected the same way as the others.



 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
18. presumably filled at a different time in a different place.
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 04:14 PM
Jan 2015

maybe somewhere cooler than where the Pats had their equipment.

The Pats were at home, so the footballs might not have been outside until game time.

I can't speak to where the Colt's equipment was.

Fla Dem

(23,650 posts)
19. Well were the Colts balls tested indoors or outside. Had they been brought in and given a chance
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 04:55 PM
Jan 2015

to warm to room temp, that may very well have reversed the deflation.

I would like to see a timeline of when the FB's were originally tested by the refs and where.

The time the FB's were returned to the teams.
Where and how long were the FB's stored before being brought out to the field?
What was the temperature in the room the Pats and Colts stored their FB's before bringing them out to the field?
What time did each team bring the FB's out to the field? The Pat's earlier than the Colts?
Where and when were the Pat's FB's retested that showed 11/12 under inflated? If on the field, that's colder than inside.
If they were tested inside, how soon after they were brought in?
Where and when were the Colt's FB's retested. If inside, if the Colt's FB's deflated in the cold they may have reinflated as they sat in a warm room. So how long after being brought in before they were retested.

There are so many variables in this situation, it prevents anyone from drawing any reasonable conclusion without all the details.

But in the end, a lot of hot air about a non-event. If the 1st half was disqualified, the Pats still blew out the Colts in the 2nd half.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
14. I have no idea as to what apparatus they use to inflate a football with
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 10:46 PM
Jan 2015

I know that when you check a tire or footballs air pressure you lose some each time you put the gauge to it and the smaller the area is the more the pressure will change by that loss

the reason I made this post is not to argue the whys or why not of the footballs but to demonstrate what effect temperature has on pressure in a confined space.

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