There aren't two legitimate sides to vaccination.

[NuclearDem]

There is the medical and scientific community that works hard to make safe and effective vaccines for utterly crippling and preventable diseases, and then there's a discredited quack who had his medical license pulled in disgrace and his lunatic followers.

That is all.

[Arcadiasix]

1. I'm not saying immunizations don't have risk. It Does.

But the benefits far out weight them. You have better odd being vaccinated. Ask a man who's Uncle never got to run in his life. He got Polio when he was 13 months old.

[hifiguy]

2. There aren't two legitimate sides to many questions

the reichwingers and other assorted pinheads throw shitfits about, either. Yet they are treated with a respect and/or deference their stupidity does not begin to merit. Science is what it is and is always self-correcting.

Such is the cost of scientific ignorance.

[NuclearDem]

3. ...

[hifiguy]

96. Danm straight.

Twilight Sparkle knows what's goin' on! brohoof

[Bonobo]

4. Yes, but I do have a reasonable question.

Where does one put the HPV vaccination in the consideration of this issue?

[NuclearDem]

6. What in particular about the HPV vaccine?

[Bonobo]

9. The Japanese govt recently stopped recommending it

Due to the dangers is side effects and it is not the only country to have done so.

[uppityperson]

11. I'd appreciate a link if you would.

Thanks Bonobo.

[Bonobo]

15. Here is one

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/806645

[Lancero]

22. Gives a login page - Got a link that leads to a accessible article?

[Bonobo]

29. Just do a search on HPV and Japan. Nt

[Lancero]

33. K - Here's what I got

http://www.hpvcentre.net/statistics/reports/JPN.pdf

Third page - 3645 women die a year of cervical cancer in Japan.

Lets see how many have died from the vaccine?

Can't find one that divides the number up by nation, and a direct search for hpv vaccine deaths in Japan gave nothing, though I did find this reguarding HPV deaths. And revealed something very shocking after hearing so much about how 'dangerous' the hpv vaccine is.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/drugs/gardasil.asp

Hmm, shocking - HPV causes ~3.5k deaths a year in japan, and so far the hpv vaccine has been linked to... well... no deaths in Japan.

[Bonobo]

34. I am not advocating for non vaccination btw

I am asking whether or not the fact that there are countries that have stopped recommending CERTAIN vaccinations does anything to make the OP statement a little less certain.

In other words, not all vaccines are the same as well as the fact that risk assessment is an issue that should have some degree of personal choice -as long as others are not endangered by your choice.

[uppityperson]

24. Thanks, ETA, interesting. I will have to do some research.

, citing concerns from the public about adverse effects, according to news reports.

The announcement is in stark contrast to the pronouncement last week by health officials in the United States that vaccination rates in teenage girls should be increased after a study concluded that estimated vaccine effectiveness is "high."

The Japanese Ministry of Health, Labor, and Welfare is not suspending vaccination, but has instructed local governments not to promote the use of the medicine while analyses are conducted about adverse effects, such as long-term pain and numbness, according to the Japanese newspaper The Asahi Shimbun.

"The decision does not mean that the vaccine itself is problematic from the viewpoint of safety," said Mariko Momoi, who heads a ministry task force looking into the controversy and is a vice president of the International University of Health and Welfare in O-tawara, Tochigi, Japan. "By implementing investigations, we want to offer information that can make the people feel more at ease."
....(more)

[wyldwolf]

13. mainly due to patient paranoia

In the latest blow to drugmakers that market HPV vaccines, the Japanese health ministry has withdrawn its recommendation for vaccination after receiving hundreds of side effects reports of long-term pain and numbness, among other things, The Asahi Shimbun writes. Although vaccines will remain available, local health officials are being told not to promote vaccination while studies are conducted.

“The decision does not mean that the vaccine, itself, is problematic from the view of safety, “ Mariko Momoi, vp of the International University of Health and Welfare, who headed a task force probing the issue, tells the paper. “By implementing investigations, we want to offer information that can make the people feel more at ease.”

To date, an estimated 3.28 million people have been vaccinated, and 1,968 cases of possible side effects, including body pain, have been reported and the task force examined 43 cases, the paper writes. However, a causal relationship between vaccination and pain and numbness could not be established, which prompted the decision to run further studies by the ministry.

http://www.drugs.com/news/citing-japan-pulls-recommendations-hpv-vaccines-45158.html

[Lancero]

12. Might be referring to this?

http://www.npr.org/2011/09/19/140543977/hpv-vaccine-the-science-behind-the-controversy

Honestly, paragraph 3 points out the reason for the vast majority of the controversy behind the vaccine.

[Recursion]

38. I dislike that it's being promoted as a "cervical cancer vaccine"

It vaccinates against one possible cause of one possible precursor of cervical cancer, not against the cancer itself.

[FourScore]

7. Seriously? n/t

[ucrdem]

5. There are, but you only read one in the US media.

US media routinely make the issue vaccination but the problem is with the "adjuvants" aka preservatives and has been all along. And that's been massively misrepresented.

[SidDithers]

32. An adjuvant is not a preservative...

Getting information from a source that thinks adjuvants and preservatives are the same thing would be a problem. Try to avoid media like that.

Sid

[ucrdem]

42. adiuvare is a Latin verb meaning to help.

Yes, I've heard Dr. Offit say adjuvants help vaccines work, but preserving a vaccine would certainly aid its effectiveness. The most widely used adjuvant appears to be aluminum:

Despite a plethora of options, only aluminium salts have gained acceptance as human vaccine adjuvants and even veterinary vaccines are largely dependent upon the use of aluminium salts.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X96001831

Whatever the reasons for adding them, injecting aluminum and/or mercury directly into an infant's bloodstream seems to me an exceedingly dangerous practice.

[uppityperson]

57. Are syringes adjuvants also, since injecting them aids their effectiveness? Vx's are not given IV.

I have been sitting, trying to figure out how to word a reply to someon who thinks "preserving a vaccine would certainly aid its effectiveness" so preservents are adjuvants.

And no. Vaccines are not injected "directly into an infant's bloodstream" but into their muscles.

A little bit of knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing.

[uppityperson]

65. Your only reply is to give me a discredited study? I agree that is a good example of the dangers of

a little bit of knowledge.

Like alcohol, mercury comes in different types.

Ethanol is drinkable alcohol, found in liquor, beer, wine, etc. Methanol, also known as methyl alcohol, wood alcohol, is a common solvent and while also a type of alcohol, is very toxic. Isopropyl alcohol, aka rubbing alcohol, is also toxic.

The type of mercury in vaccines, ethylmercury (which has been removed from children's vaccines due to misplaced fear) is not the type that "reduces a child’s intelligence" but is rapidly excreted unchanged (not absorbed). Thy type of mercury which does "reduce a child's intelligence", methylmercury, is found in high doses in tuna.

" the exponential growth of autism....etc" is thought by most medical professionals and scientists, to be due to having this be a valid diagnosis rather than just calling them kids who act out, jd's, etc. This is rather like how schizophrenia used to be a catch all but now different diagnoses have been formed to better address different mental illnesses, including personality disorders.


You missed addressing my previous post. I would like to know your answer to this question, and to make sure you understand the second point.
Are syringes adjuvants also, since injecting them aids their effectiveness? Vx's are not given IV but IM, into their muscles.

[ucrdem]

67. Okay so please read it. And the answer you're seeking is . . .

no, syringes are not to my knowledge added to vaccine mixtures to "help them work."

[uppityperson]

69. I have read it. I addressed their first couple points in my last post.

"mercury", like alcohol, comes in different forms, some of which are very toxic. The kind in vxs isn't.
"the exponential growth of autism....etc" is not due to increasing number of people with it but better diagnoses.

The rest of the report continues to be filled with falsehoods, partial truths, is held in poor regard by medical professionals and scientists.

[ucrdem]

70. Baloney. Every assertion is copiously documented.

And if you'd actually read it, and not just about it, you wouldn't be making the risible defenses you're making.

[uppityperson]

71. Are you calling me a liar because I understand the difference between ethyl & methyl mercury?

[ucrdem]

72. I'm saying you didn't read the report. And that includes the documentation. nt

[uppityperson]

73. OK, you are calling me a liar. Gotcha.

I addressed their first couple points in my last post.The rest of the report continues to be filled with falsehoods, partial truths, is held in poor regard by medical professionals and scientists.

I understand the difference between an adjuvant and a preservative, and between ethyl and methyl mercury.

As you said, you are not a medical professional. I am. I have researched and read many studies, all of which call the one you hold so high bunk.

[ucrdem]

74. You didn't even read the first sentence!

evidence suggests that thimerosal, a preservative in many children’s vaccines that breaks down to release neurotoxic ethyl mercury

The putatively harmless mercury in Thimerosal breaks down to release the more toxic form. That's the point. Look, just read the first 10 pages. Okay? And the notes. And then tell me it's bunk.

[uppityperson]

76. And again you call me a liar. How many times will you do that,rather than considering they are wrong

As I have written several times, that is wrong.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6159464
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6159489



http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/thimerosal/thimerosal_faqs.html

What is the difference between ethylmercury and methylmercury? How are they different?

When learning about thimerosal and mercury it is important to understand the difference between two different compounds that contain mercury: ethylmercury and methylmercury. They are totally different materials.

Methylmercury is formed in the environment when mercury metal is present. If this material is found in the body, it is usually the result of eating some types of fish or other food. High amounts of methylmercury can harm the nervous system. This has been found in studies of some populations that have long-term exposure to methylmercury in foods at levels that are far higher than the U.S. population. In the United States, federal guidelines keep as much methylmercury as possible out of the environment and food, but over a lifetime, everyone is exposed to some methylmercury.

Ethylmercury is formed when the body breaks down thimerosal. The body uses ethylmercury differently than methylmercury; ethylmercury is broken down and clears out of the blood more quickly. Low-level ethylmercury exposures from vaccines are very different from long-term methylmercury exposures, since the ethylmercury does not stay in the body.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23401210

Ethylmercury (etHg) is derived from the metabolism of thimerosal (o-carboxyphenyl-thio-ethyl-sodium salt), which is the most widely used form of organic mercury. Because of its application as a vaccine preservative, almost every human and animal (domestic and farmed) that has been immunized with thimerosal-containing vaccines has been exposed to etHg. Although methylmercury (meHg) is considered a hazardous substance that is to be avoided even at small levels when consumed in foods such as seafood and rice (in Asia), the World Health Organization considers small doses of thimerosal safe regardless of multiple/repetitive exposures to vaccines that are predominantly taken during pregnancy or infancy.

[ucrdem]

81. EtHg vs. MeHg:

They are slightly different forms of mercury but both molecules contain mercury. EtHg is apparently introduced into the body mainly through Thimerosal. Per this 2013 article, since ethylmercury doesn't have an established exposure limit, it's often considered the same as for methylmercury. The Reference Dose for Chronic Oral Exposure (RfD) for humans to MeHg is 0.0001 milligrams per day per kilogram of weight:

Up to date, no specific exposure limit has been established for EtHg; for this reason, often the value considered is the same as that of MeHg.

http://www.decodedscience.com/ethyl-methyl-mercury-difference/25234/2

So the difference between the two compounds is apparently that, per the claims of the CDC, EtHg doesn't "bioaccumulate." This seems to me a rather dubious claim, and the point of RFK's article, which I again urge you to actually read, is that the mercury in EtHg is in fact a neurotoxin and that its neurotoxic effects have been known at least since Lilly first introduced Thimerosal into human vaccines in the 1930s.

[uppityperson]

83. "which I again urge you to actually read". I have.

RFKs article's claims have been proven wrong numerous times by peer reviewed scientific studies. Thimerosal is not causing autism. And you sewn unable to have read anything I wrote or quoted.

I am done with you. Eom

[ucrdem]

85. I'd read the material you quoted from the CDC before, thanks. nt

[uppityperson]

80. Regarding thimerosal and autism...nope. No link.

Thimerosal-free since 2001 and no reduction in autism diagnoses. There are lots of links out there by scientists and medical professionals to counter your Kennedy study, as I said way upthread, consider that study bunk.


http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

Is thimerosal in vaccines linked to autism?

Numerous studies have found no association between thimerosal exposure and autism. However, since 2001, no new vaccine licensed by FDA for use in children has contained thimerosal as a preservative and all vaccines routinely recommended by CDC for children younger than 6 years of age have been thimerosal-free, or contain only trace amounts of thimerosal, except for some formulations of influenza vaccine. Unfortunately, reductions in the numbers of children identified with autism have not been observed since that time indicating that the cause of autism is not related to a single exposure such as thimerosal.

[Ms. Toad]

77. It has actually not been removed from all children's vaccines.

Influenza vaccines currently promoted for and administered to children, as well as some of the DT vaccines still contain thimerosal.

I'm not advocating one way or the other about whether thimerosal is an appropriate additive to vaccines, but I believe it is important to accurately describe whether vaccines contain thimerosal or not so people can make informed choices.

[uppityperson]

78. True, my apologies. Most of the children's vaccines in the USA. ETA info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal

In the United States, countries in the European Union and a few other affluent countries, thiomersal is no longer used as a preservative in routine childhood vaccination schedules.[4] In the U.S., the only exceptions among vaccines routinely recommended for children are some formulations of the inactivated influenza vaccine for children older than two years.[10] Several vaccines that are not routinely recommended for young children do contain thiomersal, including DT (diphtheria and tetanus), Td (tetanus and diphtheria), and TT (tetanus toxoid); other vaccines may contain a trace of thiomersal from steps in manufacture.[7] Also, four rarely used treatments for pit viper, coral snake, and black widow venom still contain thiomersal.[11] Outside North America and Europe, many vaccines contain thiomersal; the World Health Organization has concluded that there is no evidence of toxicity from thiomersal in vaccines and no reason on safety grounds to change to more expensive single-dose administration.[12] The United Nations Environment Program backed away from an earlier proposal of adding thiomersal in vaccines to the list of banned compounds in a treaty aimed at reducing exposure to mercury worldwide.[13] Citing medical and scientific consensus that thiomersal in vaccines posed no safety issues, but that eliminating the preservative in multi-dose vaccines, primarily used in developing countries, will lead to high cost and a requirement for refrigeration which the developing countries can ill afford, the UN’s final decision is to exclude thiomersal from the treaty.[14]

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

Do the 2014-2015 seasonal flu vaccines contain thimerosal?

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved several formulations of the seasonal flu vaccine, including multi-dose vials and single-dose units. (See Table of Approved Influenza Vaccines for the U.S. 2014–2015 Season.) Since seasonal influenza vaccine is produced in large quantities for annual vaccination campaigns, some of the vaccine is produced in multi-dose vials, and contains thimerosal to safeguard against possible contamination of the vial once it is opened.

The single-dose units are made without thimerosal as a preservative because they are intended to be opened and used only once. Additionally, the live-attenuated version of the vaccine (the nasal spray vaccine), is produced in single-dose units and does not contain thimerosal.

Is thimerosal being used in other vaccines?

Since 2001, no new vaccine licensed by FDA for use in children has contained thimerosal as a preservative, and all vaccines routinely recommended by CDC for children younger than 6 years of age have been thimerosal-free, or contain only trace amounts of thimerosal, except for some formulations of influenza vaccine. The most recent and rigorous scientific research does not support the argument that thimerosal-containing vaccines are harmful. CDC and FDA continually evaluate new scientific information about the safety of vaccines.

[Ms. Toad]

79. preservatives are not adjuvants.

Adjuvants boost the immune response in order to make them more effective at creating immunity with a smaller quantity (or fewer doses) of virus or bacterial components. Preservatives are used in multi-dose vials to prevent the vaccine from spoiling between the first dose and the last.

They are not the same.

[ucrdem]

84. Thank you, and God bess Aluminum.

p.s. I'm aware of this explanation and must confess to being skeptical of it.

[davidn3600]

8. Im not against most vaccines, but I do think the flu vaccine is garbage

I can't tell you how many people I know who says they got the flu vaccine and got sick with the flu anyway. The flu has too many strains and the immunity doesn't last. In my opinion, that particular vaccine's effectiveness is extremely limited and very well may not be worth it.

Meanwhile, I do not know anyone personally who got MMR vaccine and contracted the Measles or Mumps.

[wyldwolf]

10. Can't tell if you're joking

I can't tell you how many people I know who says they got the flu vaccine and got sick with the flu anyway.

Anecdotal.

In my opinion...

Are you a scientist?

[davidn3600]

14. Like I said...just my opinion

When multiple people in my family and close friends say they got the flu vaccine and months later have the full-blown flu....what the hell do you want me to think?

[uppityperson]

18. What do you mean by "full-blown flu"? Thanks. nt

[ReRe]

54. I am not against vaccinations...

... get a flu shot every fall. But two years ago, I indeed contracted a flu that was not accounted for in the vaccine. Ended up in the hospital for 4 days. I still get flu shots.

I'm old enough to know what the measles is. I had it when I was a kid... before they came out with a vaccination for it. It is no fun, let me tell you. Covered head to toe with the ugly red rash. When I grew up and had kids, I made sure they got ALL the vaccinations that the pediatrician recommended.

[Aristus]

61. This sounds like field-fertilizer to me. They're yanking your chain, uppityperson.

I can't count how many of my patients received the flu vaccine, then came in a month or two later with a common garden-variety cold; and they were convinced it was the flu. I had to set them straight about that. I still have to shake my head over the number of people who seem to think a little sniffle is the flu.

Correlation is not causation. Words to live by. Just because they got sick after receiving the flu vaccine does not mean they had the flu.

[uppityperson]

68. Even my brother in law gave me this line last year and I had to force myself to not yell at him

Out loud it'd been in caps, in my brain it ran something like this...

wtf wtf wtf you are an educated person influenza is respiratory not gi if your whole family came down with the runs within 2 days it was norovirus or food poisoning and if you don't cough it wasn't influenza flu wtf wtf you

Deep breath...continuing...
there is no way you could get the flu within 2 days of your vaccine unless you were exposed days ago it just doesn't work that fast get the vx when it first comes out before you are exposed argh argh argh argh argh

Deep breath and blah blah blah blah blah to him and "oh, it doesn't protect us against stomach flu?" back. Seriously, wtf.

Sorry.

Educate, advocate, educate....

[Ms. Toad]

82. The influenza vaccine this year is only 23% more effective

than not being vaccinated. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6401a4.htm

The typical efficiency is 50-60%.

I'd say the CDC testing, which involves actual testing, is hardly field-fertilizer.

[Aristus]

90. Medicine is often a game of inches. If it was only 1% more effective than not getting

vaccinated, I would still urge vaccination. Consider: If we reported a 23% drop in the number of confirmed influenza infections in any given year, we would consider that a medical victory, wouldn't we?

If there's going to be any further discussion on the matter, please keep in mind that I don't give any validity whatsoever to any sort of advocacy against vaccination. Not even in the hypothetical.

[Liberal Veteran]

95. Approximately 36000 people die from the flu every year.

23% = 8280 people who didn't die.

Approximately 200000 people are hospitalized due to the flu every year.

23% = 46000 less hospitalizations.

You are correct. No matter how you slice, 23% isn't the best number the flu vaccine ever achieved, but it hardly deserves to be scoffed at either when you think about what it can do.

[Aristus]

98. I mentioned those patients of mine who insisted they had the flu, but a medical examination

Last edited Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:10 PM - Edit history (1)

ruled it out. My point was to refute my patients' assertion that they contracted the flu despite (or even because) of the vaccination. One can call these anecdotes, but they are based on scientific reasoning in the clinical setting. And if one calls it an opinion, it is informed opinion.

I'm sorry, Liberal Veteran. I thought I was replying to Ms. Toad just now. I apologize that it seemed directed toward you and your excellent post.

[Ms. Toad]

97. My response was to your comments,

which implied that people who thought they got the flu after having been vaccinated were deluding themselves - that it wasn't really happening.

This sounds like field-fertilizer to me. They're yanking your chain, uppityperson. I can't count how many of my patients received the flu vaccine, then came in a month or two later with a common garden-variety cold; and they were convinced it was the flu. I had to set them straight about that. . . . Just because they got sick after receiving the flu vaccine does not mean they had the flu.

The reality is that the flu vaccine is very ineffective this year, and a considerable number of people who were vaccinated have actually come down with the flu. Not imagined it. Not one or two. But large numbers of people.

Discussions should be reality based, and what you were implying was not. If your actual position is that you believe people should be vaccinated even if it only provides 1% increased effectiveness, then argue that - but don't base that argument on insinuations that those who believe the vaccine is ineffective are deluded because, particularly this year, it is no delusion.

[wyldwolf]

19. I've known people who think fluoride in water is nefarious

As the CDC has repeatedly said, many people who've reported getting sick AFTER the vaccination were already sick.

[ismnotwasm]

21. Did they get tested for the flu?

There is a lot of confusion with the word 'flu' for instance--a very bad cold is not the flu. The 'stomach flu' is a misnomer.

I work in a hospital and we see people come in with flu like symptoms (I work mostly with immunocompromised patients so they are always admitted) and what they have is rhinovirus.

Its the very rare vaccinated patient who actually tests positive for the viruses the are vaccinated for.

[Major Nikon]

31. You really think anecdotal information trumps empirical studies?

For one thing, flu vaccine effectiveness varies year to year because the vaccine must be prepared well ahead of the flu season, and may not accurately reflect the strains of the virus in circulation. So if you are basing your decision to get vaccinated on what happened in years past, your anecdotal information is worth about as much as day old dog shit. Some years the flu vaccine is effective. Damn effective even. Others not so much. Even if the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting the flu, it can make symptoms much less severe in many cases. Believe it or not the flu manages to kill people, and sometimes even healthy adults. Getting vaccinated may very well save your life or someone else's.

[BruceStern]

41. Serologic testing for influenza?

Unless everyone in the family and all your friends had influenza testing they're taking a WAG.

I either treat with Tamiflu or let it go.

Even when Tamiflu came out and we were supposed to check influenza first no one I knew was going that route because the results weren't accurate, ours took longer than 15 minutes and the treatment window is 48 hours.

I've never had a patient in 15 years ask to check for influenza because s/he got the vaccine. I'd be happy to get it. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility someone could have influenza. The odds of everyone in a family as well as multiple friends getting the same disease (vs more garden variety URI adenovirus, rhinovirus) or non-infectious cause (allergies) are pretty slim.

The vaccine is like predicting the stock market. This particular virus is extremely mutagenic and every year in advance immunologists have to pick which types. Pretty dang hard.

However the vaccine is better than the alternative, do nothing.

[Ilsa]

44. I got swabbed for it. Came back

"Negative." I still got Tamiflu because what I had was probably viral and had so many flu symptoms except nose/lung/respiratory symptoms. The anti-viral Rx helped reduce the severity of my symptoms by the next afternoon. Made them milder.

The CDC picked the wrong strains to vax for this year. But I will continue getting my flu shot every year.

[Aristus]

64. If you didn't have respiratory symptoms, you didn't have the flu. Influenza is respiratory

in nature. That's why, as someone pointed out above, that there's no such thing as 'stomach-flu'.

Your immune system kicked the virus on its own, and you thought it was the Tamiflu that did it.

[Ilsa]

88. Tamiflu is an antiviral and not just respiratory antiviral.

I had a virus that gave me multiple symptoms usually associated with the flu, plus light drainage and a sore throat, but no sneezing. I have a mild cough now. My infection was viral, and the tamiflu helped lessen the severity pretty significantly by the next morning. I was able to shower and dress and manage limited but necessary housework for my family. My immune system did not get me that far on its own.

When I was younger I rarely got vaccinated for flu. I've had different flus and later after having kids in school, other viruses that affected other body systems. My personal history with all of those is that the worst symptoms drag on for three days or more, rendering me incapable of walking out the back door. This one had a very debilitating start and was getting worse when I got the Rx early enough to be effective in blocking the replication process.

My son's dr had the same thing the previous week. He said the same thing about Tamiflu tasking the virus.

[uppityperson]

66. What flu symptoms did you have? Flu virus is interesting creature. It can only live in a narrow temp

range which is the reason it lives in our respiratory systems. That is the perfect temp and moisture for it. And the reason our body increases our temperature when the virus takes up residence, trying to get too hot for it.

[Ilsa]

89. yes, my temp hit 103° at one point,

but I didn't have sneezing, just mild congestion and a very sore throat, no strep. Nausea, vomiting, muscle aches, headaches, light drainage, horrible chills were other symptoms.

[Aristus]

91. Still not an indication for Tamiflu.

I would definitely have treated you with an antipyritic, like acetaminophen, and otherwise given you symptomatic treatment until you got better. I always weight risk of potential side effects against potential benefit from the medication. If in my clinical judgement the risks outweigh the benefits, I don't prescribe that particular medication.

[Ilsa]

92. So you are saying it wasn't viral? nt

[Aristus]

93. No. I didn't say that. I'm acknowledging that it was viral.

Just that one didn't need Tamiflu to treat it.

You've heard the expression "Using a sledgehammer to kill a fly"?

This is not the case for that. But it is like using a standard claw-hammer to drive a thumbtack into a corkboard. Effective, but entirely unnecessary. Plus, the risk (side-effect) of hammering your thumb.

[uppityperson]

17. Regarding your points about the flu vaccine and mmr

1. Influenza mutates quickly, like the common cold. You can get it again and again and again because there are billions of strain. Measles, Mumps, Rubella do not mutate, so you can only get it once. If your body develops antibodies against M, M or R (by exposure or vaccine) , there you go (some need boosters to make sure your immune system is ready to act quickly).

2. It is possible to get a disease after getting vaccinated IF you were exposed before your body developed antibodies to the specific virsuses that were in the vaccine. Being in a doctors office with hacking sick people exposes you. Get your flu vaccine early as soon as it comes out and it is more likely you will make the antibodies before you get exposed.

3. Stomach flu is not influenza but another virus or food poisoning. Influenza vaccine does not protect you from stomach bugs.

4. The immunity for the flu virus does last, however influenza mutates quickly and you are only immune to the strain of influenza that was in the vaccine, not the brazillion others.

5. It is true that some years, like this year, the most common types of influenza are not the types the vaccine protects against. Scientists attempt to predict what the most common strains will be and make the vaccine according to that. Most years they do pretty well but some years they miss.

6. Stomach flu is not influenza. Yes, a few people might have diarrhea with influenza but the most common symptoms for the flu are respiratory. Listen to those people hacking away saying they have bronchitis. Technically they do since their bronchial tubes are inflamed but this is because they were damaged by the influenza virus. If you do not cough, you probably did not have the flu. If you have diarrhea it is probably norovirus or another virus that attacks the gastronintestinal system. Influenza generally attacks the respiratory system.

7. Yes, i know #3 and 6 are the same but it bears repeating. Influenza is respiratory and you end up coughing for 3 weeks.

[procon]

23. Yes, the flu is a rapidly mutating virus

and that's why you need a new vaccination every year. The scientists have a herculean task in predicting which strain will hit us, and they are right more often than not. Those folks that are most at risk like the elderly, the young and those with other medical problem at the most at risk are probably in your own family, friends and coworkers.

A healthy person who rationalizes way to avoid flu vaccines will probably weather a flu infection, but why would you want to gamble with the lives of those who are not as medically strong?

[Recursion]

39. Influenza and varicella are both problematic vaccines from an effectiveness standpoint

And, for that matter, health care providers themselves express the greatest skepticism about those two vaccines' effectiveness. But they are very much outliers in that regard.

[gcomeau]

40. There. Are. Lots. Of. "Flu's"

You can't make a vaccine that blocks every single strain. That doesn't mean the vaccine doesn't work.

[Ilsa]

45. Please read Reply #17 by uppityperson

for a succinct, but excellent explanation for your concerns and dilemma.

[uppityperson]

59. Thank you.

Educate, educate, educate.

[JDPriestly]

48. Here is one anecdote that will shift your numbers.

I get my flu vaccine every year and have not gotten the flu yet. I have been exposed and I ride public transportation. I rely on the vaccine to protect me. So far it has.

[Hari Seldon]

16. The Flu Vaccine is ineffective crap

by the CDC's own admission it is as effective as a placebo.

Measles is one thing, but I don't intend to make myself a testing ground for this years version of a vaccine that doesn't work.

I promise if I get sick I will stay home and suffer in silence.

[wyldwolf]

20. "by the CDC's own admission it is as effective as a placebo." Link?

[Lancero]

25. I think this might be what he's referring to?

http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cdcflu.asp

[wyldwolf]

26. Yeah, probably. LOL.

[handmade34]

46. more likely...

something akin to this... (there are strains this year that the shot is not effective against)


http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/types.htm

[wyldwolf]

87. there are ALWAYS strains the shot is not effective against

The effective percentage of the flu shot has always been measured this way: "You're approximately ___% less likely to get the flu." This year, getting the flu shot reduced a person's chance of getting the flu by 23 percent. Even though that's historically low, I STILL like those odds, considering how deadly the flu can be. Any medical body that advises not to get the flu shot or trumpets that 23% is being irresponsible.

The objective of flu vaccinations has only ever been to protect against the most likely strains for an upcoming flu season, and it is impossible to state with certainty which strains will circulate in the future. The inability of researchers to completely predict which strains will circulate is a well-documented limitation of flu vaccination, not a hidden drawback.

Furthermore, the CDC has always recommended anyone who is able to receive the flu shot do so. Even during flu seasons when the vaccine isn't a perfect match, cross-protection against circulating strains of influenza results in fewer instances of severe reactions or deaths from the flu.

[handmade34]

43. I just got home from the hospital...

S.O. VERY sick and the ER Doctor was explaining that there are a number of different strains of flu this year and the vaccination is effective against only Type A... no reason not to get it though

turns out SO doesn't have flu though... it's pneumonia

[shenmue]

51. Feel better

[DebJ]

55. Actually it is two of the A strains and 1 b strain (or 2 b strains)

All of the 2014-2015 influenza vaccine is made to protect against the following three viruses:

an A/California/7/2009 (H1N1)pdm09-like virus
an A/Texas/50/2012 (H3N2)-like virus
a B/Massachusetts/2/2012-like virus.

Some of the 2014-2015 flu vaccine also protects against an additional B virus (B/Brisbane/60/2008-like virus).

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2014-2015.htm

[uppityperson]

27. No it isn't and no they haven't. Unless you can give me a link, in which case I will read it. nt

[hunter]

36. I've been admitted to hospital for flu complications...

... and have endured a few similar experiences at home.

Feverish hallucinating skeleton-man Hunter is not anyone you'd ever want to meet. He even scares me!

I once smacked my own mother in the face with a car seat... no, don't ask. An entire Toyota car seat. The brains of a seventeen year old are not yet fully developed and don't function well when oxygen deprived and extremely overheated.

My mom still loves me, but I've seen my mom equally volatile in difficult circumstances.

Nevertheless, my mom and I are mild compared to moms and grandmothers much further back.

My grandma fought off the police and paramedics for a few hours once a judge had declared her a danger to herself and others. And after that no nursing home would keep her long, not even the 24/7 supervision sort.

Thanks to modern medicine I haven't been dropped off (or been dumped off with extreme prejudice) at an E.R. since 1987.

I'll never be the sort who suffers in silence.

[Maedhros]

86. Links or it didn't happen. [n/t]

[jimlup]

28. Agreed but ...

the civil libertarian in me still insists that those opposed to vacination have the right to refuse it. Perhaps if they are ostrasized as we see in the Arizona case that is sufficent to incentivize immunizations.

[Scootaloo]

30. of course they do

The problem is, they drag their kids along. And you have to decide - is a parent's idiocy a worthy reason to bar children from attending school? Is the need to education worth the risk posed by unvaccinated kids among large groups of other children?

[jimlup]

35. I think the idea of keeping them away from school for the incubation period is a good idea /nt

[JDPriestly]

50. If your baby dies from whooping cough or measles brought home by an older sibling, you may

change your mind.

We should all try to protect our health and that of the vulnerable around us. It's the decent thing to do. It is the caring and humane thing to do.

Yes. Schools should be free from whooping cough and measles, etc.

The money spent to care for people with diseases that can be prevented by the prick of a needle could be spent for better things.

If making sure your tires have enough air will save a life, you should make sure your tires have enough air. Same with fixing your brakes and the wiring in your house. We should take the precautions that can protect us and others.

[Scootaloo]

53. Oh, I'm firmly pro-vaccine

I'm just saying, it's a tough decision, whether to deprive children of education because their parents are idiots, vs. getting them the education they clearly won't get at home, at some risk to others.

If i must err, I would certainly err on the side of public safety, but it's not a question with an actual "winning answer" so far as i can tell.

[JDPriestly]

63. Yes. Sometimes it's a question of free-dumb and sometimes the free takes precedence and sometimes

the dumbness does. It is tough.

In California we have seen a resurgence in absolutely preventable childhood diseases, whooping cough and measles. Do we have to put up with polio outbreaks too. That was the terror of my childhood.

[Omaha Steve]

37. My 6 month old grandson Jason is in the hospital from immunization shots (Omaha Steve Fri Apr-17-09)

There is a risk. My only grandson will live with the result of that small risk rest of his life. Medically proven. There are two sides of the story. End of discussion!

OS

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5480333

[Hassin Bin Sober]

47. Not sure what "side" of the story you are on but I don't think the non-idiot side ever denied....

..... that complications are possible.

Has there ever been a medical procedure without possible complications?

[Omaha Steve]

49. I'm not an anti-vaccer

I've been posting the Disney infected #'s from the beginning in LBN & GD and promoting getting the shots.

OS

[Hassin Bin Sober]

56. I didn't think you were. Not sure what the "other side" is though.

[BruceStern]

52. How did they prove it was the vaccine?

The hypersensitivity reaction takes place within minutes to hours.

Life-threatening allergic reactions are very rare. Signs of serious allergic reaction can include breathing problems, hoarseness or wheezing, hives, paleness, weakness, a fast heartbeat, or dizziness. If they do occur, it is within a few minutes to a few hours after the shot. These reactions are more likely to occur among persons with a severe allergy to eggs, because the viruses used in most influenza vaccines are grown in hens’ eggs.

The MRI would've shown encephalomyelitis which has been described in a few cases.

Those are the only possibilities I can think of. Glad he's ok.

[Omaha Steve]

58. Omaha Children's Hospital staff testified on his behalf

I stopped sharing personal family info some time back. He will have problems the rest of his life.

OS

[uppityperson]

60. Yes, there are some who can not have vaccines. There is more risk of dying from the disease though

I am glad he is ok and it is too bad he will have to watch himself now. There are those who can not take vaccines but too often too many do not fall into the "can not" but "don't want to will not" category.

I do not know of anyone who is saying everyone should, but that everyone who can should.

[DeSwiss]

75. ....

[McCamy Taylor]

94. Rotovirus Vaccine version one. Look it up.

The current crop of vaccines is good. Look up some of the ones that are no longer used. For instance, there was a measles vaccine offered in the 1960s that provides no protection against measles. Instead, people who had the vaccine and get measles get a worse form of the disease through hypersensitivity. They are advised to get a good dose of MMR now so that they won't get sick as dogs with measles.

There are always two sides to anything---over time. What you really mean to say is that at this point in time, with our current measles outbreak, public health should be concentrating its efforts on getting people the vaccines it needs. Later, it can go back to testing the safety and improving the efficacy of vaccines.