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uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:43 PM Jan 2015

Why do I need to vaccinate my puppy?

In the old days, we let our dogs run around outside in the dirt and threw real sticks rather than sterilized Kongs like people do nowdays. Our dogs developed immunities gradually as they were exposed, not all in one like they do now with vaccinations. My dogs all survived.

I would rather buy her healthy food and stimulate her immune system to act properly if he ever comes across a disease than inject her with those chemicals which "they" say are safe, but we all know "they" lie and want only to make money.

Now they want me to bring my young puppy in to inject multiple diseases into him at the same time every couple months. I am worried about overwhelming her sensitive immune system and don't really see the need for these vaccines anyway. I don't take him around sick dogs and if the vaccines were any good, they'd last forever.

I don't know of any dog who has had rabies, it isn't where I live so why should I risk my sweet fluffy puppy and expose her to all those nasty chemicals?













ETA

106 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Why do I need to vaccinate my puppy? (Original Post) uppityperson Jan 2015 OP
K&R eom MohRokTah Jan 2015 #1
I like puppies shenmue Jan 2015 #2
Oh snap! HappyMe Jan 2015 #3
Vaccines don’t feel right for me and my family. uppityperson Jan 2015 #4
But subjecting others to HappyMe Jan 2015 #5
I saw that. Brigid Jan 2015 #9
I know you came to this decision after a lot of meditation REP Jan 2015 #6
Parvo virus is a miserable way to die& breaks human hearts too irisblue Jan 2015 #7
I agree. So is measles for kids like Roald Dahl's daughter did. uppityperson Jan 2015 #8
worse, you can't get rid of it in the environment TorchTheWitch Jan 2015 #10
So right! Thank god my puppy was vaccinated for Parvo. broiles Feb 2015 #104
There actually are real, science based concerns Ms. Toad Jan 2015 #11
Thank you, Ms. Toad. I've read about these changes in pet vaccine schedules pnwmom Feb 2015 #100
"I don't know of any dog who has had rabies" Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #12
that picture looks like it was taken in a bookstore (several of the same titles next to the dog). ND-Dem Jan 2015 #16
I was thinking "thrift store" with that old chair. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2015 #19
maybe. but i've seen bookstores with the same ambiance, old chairs where you could sit down ND-Dem Jan 2015 #20
If you really do value your puppy you will not vaccinate former9thward Jan 2015 #13
Ugh. Well, that didn't take long. AtheistCrusader Jan 2015 #14
And your dog is a reason I couldn't take mine to dog parks until he was fully vx'd uppityperson Jan 2015 #35
My dog is always the oldest at the dog parks. former9thward Jan 2015 #47
Instead of vaccinating yours, you risk the life of mine. How telling. uppityperson Jan 2015 #49
I said in my post I had the standard shots when she former9thward Jan 2015 #54
And George Burns lived to 100 despite heavy drinking and smoking LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #63
Not putting any dog at risk. former9thward Jan 2015 #65
I have Aced a college course in immunology. Have you? LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #67
Which has about zero to do with this discussion. former9thward Jan 2015 #75
Then don't derail things by saying things like "I bet you don't even know..." (nt) LostOne4Ever Jan 2015 #90
Please link to where I said former9thward Feb 2015 #94
Here LostOne4Ever Feb 2015 #95
And a college course in immunology tells you how former9thward Feb 2015 #96
It teaches you immunology LostOne4Ever Feb 2015 #98
here.. 840high Jan 2015 #85
you have to pay for blood work titres....not cheap irisblue Feb 2015 #93
around here the recommendation has changed to every 3 years laundry_queen Jan 2015 #56
That's same as my Vet does. 840high Jan 2015 #86
My vet also. Every 3 years. uppityperson Jan 2015 #88
So no rabies tag or license either in those 17 ish years. MerryBlooms Jan 2015 #58
One rabies tag. former9thward Jan 2015 #59
You are fine with risking your pet's health and well being, which is disgustsing, but MerryBlooms Jan 2015 #61
I am not a risk of any of those things. former9thward Jan 2015 #64
Our mini long-hair doxy passed 2 years ago at the age of 19+ years MerryBlooms Jan 2015 #69
The dog parks I go to don't have former9thward Jan 2015 #73
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2015 #72
find out what the law is about rabies in your state blackcrow Jan 2015 #15
My county requires annual rabies. Fuddnik Jan 2015 #18
I picked up our second puppy over 4 years ago at the rescue org. Fuddnik Jan 2015 #17
Awww! Cute little babies! smirkymonkey Jan 2015 #48
Beautiful, beautiful dogs!!!!!! etherealtruth Jan 2015 #78
People sterilize Kongs??? ScreamingMeemie Jan 2015 #21
Responsible Kong owners Lefta Dissenter Jan 2015 #60
They get underfoot in the dark of night and lead to accidental falls. uppityperson Jan 2015 #79
the truth or as best I can tell crayn Jan 2015 #22
Welcome to DU. You might want to fix your second sentence... ScreamingMeemie Jan 2015 #23
Oops crayn Jan 2015 #27
Thanks! ScreamingMeemie Jan 2015 #30
Welcome to DU and uppityperson Jan 2015 #24
I don't think this is in response to your OP, uppity. See post #13. smokey nj Jan 2015 #26
Oops again crayn Jan 2015 #38
No worries, it gets confusing here sometimes and I agree with what you write. uppityperson Jan 2015 #40
Thanks crayn Jan 2015 #55
Welcome to DU! smokey nj Jan 2015 #25
Conversely, pay attention to the sarcasm tag. ScreamingMeemie Jan 2015 #28
Read the thread, specifically post #13. That's the post to which I was referring. smokey nj Jan 2015 #31
That is not the post the person was referring to. ScreamingMeemie Jan 2015 #34
Why the fuck are you attacking me? I merely welcomed a new member. smokey nj Jan 2015 #37
Why the "fuck" I'm "discussing" and not "attacking" you... ScreamingMeemie Jan 2015 #39
You are attacking me and I don't appreciate it. I hardly ever respond to threads because of nasty smokey nj Jan 2015 #43
One person's "attack" is another's "discussion." I'll continue to call out the dredger uppers. ScreamingMeemie Jan 2015 #45
And I'll keep calling out nasty people. smokey nj Jan 2015 #46
Best of luck! ScreamingMeemie Jan 2015 #50
I remember the most egregious posts, and those about hurting beings. uppityperson Jan 2015 #51
I don't have either. The Sarah Palin thing happened within the last few weeks and I remembered an smokey nj Jan 2015 #52
Yes, it was. They clarified here. uppityperson Jan 2015 #41
Thanks uppity! :) My other comments stand. ScreamingMeemie Jan 2015 #44
This message was self-deleted by its author uppityperson Jan 2015 #29
I didn't mean you I meant post #13. smokey nj Jan 2015 #32
Got it, self deleted. No worries. nt uppityperson Jan 2015 #33
Why do I vaccinate my darling puppy, because I want her to be with me as long as possible. Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #36
There are plenty of vets that disagree with you. former9thward Jan 2015 #53
I don't think the law is what you think it is. crayn Jan 2015 #57
Have you heard of Current Veterinary Therapy by Kirk? former9thward Jan 2015 #62
one reference? crayn Jan 2015 #66
U of Illinois, 1990., M.S. former9thward Jan 2015 #70
You're welcome crayn Jan 2015 #74
You must be real fun at a party. former9thward Jan 2015 #77
If you ever saw a puppy dying of distempter or parvovirus, you would not ask that... hlthe2b Jan 2015 #83
Did you miss the sarcasm in my OP? uppityperson Jan 2015 #84
Yes, I surely did... good to know. hlthe2b Jan 2015 #89
"Who is the fool now?" zappaman Jan 2015 #68
Ahhh, I'm so hurt... former9thward Jan 2015 #71
Did you ever stop to think, that maybe... Drahthaardogs Jan 2015 #80
Because rabies vxs are preventing pets from getting rabies, they are vaccinating needlessly? WTF? uppityperson Jan 2015 #82
+1 pinto Jan 2015 #76
many times I've told my saintly vet that I'd far rather have him as my own doctor TorchTheWitch Feb 2015 #97
crayn blackcrow Feb 2015 #102
Rabies vaccination crayn Feb 2015 #103
I am in Georgia and no vet has ever insisted on the rabies shot after my dog had a reaction... Phentex Feb 2015 #105
Big pharma!!! zappaman Jan 2015 #42
I have a personal story that I am going through right now that is very relevant to this thread Godhumor Jan 2015 #81
Of course shots are important but 840high Jan 2015 #87
I'm a big believer of The rabies vaccine. Redford Jan 2015 #91
We have lots of raccoons around here and they can pass it on to their babies who show no signs uppityperson Jan 2015 #92
Wow, that is a hell of a story. Glad the horses (and you) came through OK. - nt KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #99
My head almost exploded. Jamastiene Feb 2015 #101
Right on! Puppies are people too! yellowcanine Feb 2015 #106

REP

(21,691 posts)
6. I know you came to this decision after a lot of meditation
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 03:58 PM
Jan 2015

Saw that in another piece about not vaccinating. I threw up a little.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
10. worse, you can't get rid of it in the environment
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:11 PM
Jan 2015

It lives in the feces and vomit of infected animals, goes into the soil, and can survive up to 7 months. It is also transferable to humans.

Though parvovirus can be survivable in some animals, it is a miserable illness with no known cure.

There is no excuse for not vaccinating pets and children not just for their own health but for the health of anyone - human or animal - that comes into contact with an infected pet or child, and as in the case of parvovirus and other communicable diseases coming into contact with the virus in the environment.

broiles

(1,367 posts)
104. So right! Thank god my puppy was vaccinated for Parvo.
Sun Feb 1, 2015, 03:06 PM
Feb 2015

He still got a mutated form of it and would have died without the vax and immediate care. Now they tell me not to allow any young dogs in my yard for 2 years. The maker of the vaccine is covering all costs for his treatment.

Ms. Toad

(33,997 posts)
11. There actually are real, science based concerns
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:12 PM
Jan 2015

about pet vaccinations and the changes from the vaccination regime "in the old days."** Not to mention that one of the concerns is related to aluminum salts - a common adjuvant in human vaccinations.

How the vaccine makers and veterinarians are working to protect your cat
As a result of all this research, there have been changes in the way vaccines are made and administered. Some manufacturers have stopped putting aluminum salts in vaccines, and veterinarians now give injections in cats' upper legs. If a sarcoma does occur, the entire leg can be amputated to prevent and limit the recurrence of the cancer.

Vaccination schedules have also changed. In the past, veterinarians prescribed annual vaccines. Now veterinarians may recommend that they be given every three years to cats at low risk. Researchers have found that vaccines often provide immunity far beyond one year, reducing the need for frequent revaccinations. Rabies vaccinations at certain intervals may be required by law.


http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/cats/tips/feline_vaccine_related_sarcoma.html

The link is not as well established in dogs, but there are similar concerns in that population.

Most types of injectable vaccine and non-vaccine products have rarely been associated with sarcoma development in dogs, but some dogs may develop a site specific sarcoma following rabies vaccination. In fact, reports of a sarcoma (a cancerous mass arising from bone, cartilage, fat or muscle) developing at the site of vaccine injection sites in some animals have led to the suspicion of a link between the vaccine and a disposition in some animals to this type of reaction.

The cause for the sarcoma development is unknown, but it is believed that local inflammation must first occur for the malignant mass to follow. In addition, initial reports focused on vaccine adjuvants (assisting ingredients) containing aluminum as a potential cause of the sarcoma. However, the role of aluminum is unclear because not all adjuvants used in the vaccines that have been associated with sarcoma formation have contained aluminum.


http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/cancer/c_dg_vaccine_sarcoma

Particularly since the rabies vaccine is implicated, your rabies analogy may not be as convincing as intended, if the point is to poke fun at people who reject vaccinations, or use them selectively.



**in the old days, vaccines were given in infancy without repeats. The move to annual vaccinations for animals is a change, not from no vaccinations - but from infancy only vaccinations.

pnwmom

(108,955 posts)
100. Thank you, Ms. Toad. I've read about these changes in pet vaccine schedules
Sun Feb 1, 2015, 03:52 AM
Feb 2015

and I've wondered whether we would be learning things that could affect the vaccines we give to our children. Thanks for the links.

 

ND-Dem

(4,571 posts)
16. that picture looks like it was taken in a bookstore (several of the same titles next to the dog).
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 06:27 PM
Jan 2015

was it, do you know? I'd love to know where.

 

ND-Dem

(4,571 posts)
20. maybe. but i've seen bookstores with the same ambiance, old chairs where you could sit down
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:13 PM
Jan 2015

and read, and dogs and cats about. that's why I asked where it was. I love that kind of book store.

in seattle's u district there used to be several. I think they're all gone now though.

former9thward

(31,941 posts)
13. If you really do value your puppy you will not vaccinate
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 06:22 PM
Jan 2015

as much as the Vets want. Repeated vaccination has shown to lead to auto-immune disease in dogs (and cats). I have a 17 year old black lab. She got the standard shots one time as a puppy. I never got her any more. Not only is she 17 and still healthy but she has never had a reason to go to a vet in those 17 years. She is outside and around other dogs not only in my house but many others in dog parks, etc.

Vaccination protocols are made up by vets and companies that make the drugs. Follow the money.

http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/scienceVaccineDamage.html

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
35. And your dog is a reason I couldn't take mine to dog parks until he was fully vx'd
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:31 PM
Jan 2015

Because there were unvaccinated dogs there. What a shame, to have to limit my pup's activities because of your distrust and misunderstandings of vaccinations.

I give my own vaccines (except for rabies of course), with my vet being used for check ups and health issues.

former9thward

(31,941 posts)
47. My dog is always the oldest at the dog parks.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:40 PM
Jan 2015

If I followed your advice it would not be alive to be there. No thanks.

former9thward

(31,941 posts)
54. I said in my post I had the standard shots when she
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:49 PM
Jan 2015

was a puppy. You are the one risking the life of your dog, no one else.

LostOne4Ever

(9,286 posts)
63. And George Burns lived to 100 despite heavy drinking and smoking
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:24 PM
Jan 2015

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]That does not mean that heavy drinking and smoking is heathy.

Your dog is lucky, nothing more. And it is putting other dogs at risk.
[/font]

former9thward

(31,941 posts)
65. Not putting any dog at risk.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:27 PM
Jan 2015

Link to the science that says my dog is putting others at risk. You don't even know how rabies is contracted by animals, do you?

LostOne4Ever

(9,286 posts)
67. I have Aced a college course in immunology. Have you?
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:31 PM
Jan 2015

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]BTW: Saliva.[/font]

former9thward

(31,941 posts)
96. And a college course in immunology tells you how
Sun Feb 1, 2015, 01:58 AM
Feb 2015

dogs contract Rabies in an urban environment. Please tell us. Afterall you "aced it". And tell us how many dogs get rabies in a urban setting. You "aced it" afterall.

LostOne4Ever

(9,286 posts)
98. It teaches you immunology
Sun Feb 1, 2015, 02:22 AM
Feb 2015

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]About phages, pathogens, histones, cytoxic T cells, and the like. They spent a lot of time going over how antibodies mix and match amino acids from their dna to respond pathogens. Really boring stuff.

Anyways, rabies is contract through saliva of an infected animal. Primarily through bites to be specific. There are about 350 cases of domestic animals with rabies each year.

Because cats are less likely than dogs to get vaccinated the number of cats with rabies is greatly increasing and as of 2008 now are infected 3x as often.
[/font]

http://www.cdc.gov/features/dsrabies/

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]But you just said of this has nothing to do with the discussion, and you are right. We were talking about how illogical your statement about your dog having lived to an old age has to do with whether your vaccinating them is effective.

Again George Burns smoked and drank and lived to be hundred years old, that does not mean that those things are good or healthy.
[/font]

irisblue

(32,929 posts)
93. you have to pay for blood work titres....not cheap
Sun Feb 1, 2015, 12:40 AM
Feb 2015

and the article you are linking to is a 2002 one. Do NOT get me wrong, those angels were a life line when the most handsome prince, Alex , was alive and having way too frequent seizures. I paid for the titres to make sure his blood had enough immunity, 2000-2005, knowing that if the blood work was not in immunity range, he was going to get the vacs. It wasn't cheap doing the blood work, one set of blood work tubes were crushed in transit, so he had redraws and more packing peanuts in that and subsequent shipping packages. The most wonderful vet ever, Dr Steckert and I worked together to keep Alex healthy. I did a lot of education, and was willing to spend the money to make it so. I can't imagine most people doing the same, it was way labor and money intensive. I had that luxury.
Blood titres might work, for the very very dedicated.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
56. around here the recommendation has changed to every 3 years
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:07 PM
Jan 2015

And that's mostly only for rabies.

I once had Weimeraners, eons ago, and that is one breed that has proven genetic issues with vaccination. Some breeders choose not to vaccinate Weimeraners for that reason (not mine, and we vaccinated them too).

I do think it is funny though, that some people think it's not an issue in the dog world too, though. It is. Same discussions.

MerryBlooms

(11,757 posts)
61. You are fine with risking your pet's health and well being, which is disgustsing, but
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:20 PM
Jan 2015

you are also ok with your pet at risk for being put into quarantine and the trauma that would involve for an elderly pet.
You are an irresponsible pet owner.
Selfish.
Period.

MerryBlooms

(11,757 posts)
69. Our mini long-hair doxy passed 2 years ago at the age of 19+ years
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:32 PM
Jan 2015

he died one month before his 20th birthday.

If you are taking your dog to dog parks, you most certainly are risking its health and the possible co-park user of turning you in to animal control for no tags, or your dog accidentally getting out and being on their own.

former9thward

(31,941 posts)
73. The dog parks I go to don't have
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:42 PM
Jan 2015

people in them who worship authoritarian bureaucrats. In other words they are normal people. So no one is going to "turn me in". No, my dogs are not at risk of "being on their own."

Response to former9thward (Reply #13)

 

blackcrow

(156 posts)
15. find out what the law is about rabies in your state
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 06:25 PM
Jan 2015

If your pet is not vaccinated against it, and gets lost and winds up in an animal shelter, bad stuff may happen unless they locate you right away. At best, your pet may be put in quarantine for thirty days at your expense.

That's another reason to have your pets microchipped as well, so you can be located quickly.

Vets are much more sensible and cautious about vaccinations nowadays. Find a good vet and listen to him or her. But rabies is a special case because of the laws.

Fuddnik

(8,846 posts)
17. I picked up our second puppy over 4 years ago at the rescue org.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 06:30 PM
Jan 2015

It was the first day they were available. Just got their first round of immunizations, and being spayed and neutered.

This was on Wed. evening. About 2 weeks later the rescue President called me and asked if he had any symptoms of Parvo. Bloody stools, lethargy, lack of appetite and nausea. I replied that to the contrary, he was the exact opposite. Crazy, energetic, and would eat anything you put in front of his face.

It seemed that two days after we took him home, they took the rest of the litters to an adoption event in St. Pete, and they all contracted Parvo there. Almost all of them died. After being adopted out. Even after they get their shots, it takes a couple of weeks for them to work completely. We got lucky, and so did another person who took home another from the litter at the same time.

He's the black one.

Lefta Dissenter

(6,622 posts)
60. Responsible Kong owners
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:18 PM
Jan 2015

spay and neuter their Kongs.

You don't want a bunch of little Konglettes running around, do you? That would be irresponsible.

 

crayn

(10 posts)
22. the truth or as best I can tell
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:15 PM
Jan 2015

It is astounding to me that people in a modern American society are so easily mislead by pseudoscientific nonsense. I am a Veterinarian and have been in small animal practice for 30 years. I am highly offended by the implication that am in the sway of drug companies.I and every other Veterinarian that I know have dedicated our careers to SAVING pets lives. To imply that I in someway are in the pocket of any vaccine or drug manufacturer is extremely insulting and only shows your ignorance of how things really work. I have given up personal reward to do this job because I love my best friends and I have been given the gift of being capable of knowledgeably and properly going about the job of animal healthcare. It is my passion. I have devoted my life to helping care of some of the most vulnerable and mistreated creatures that we call our best friends. It is not an act to separate you from your money and to harm your pet in the process. How ludicrous!

I pay attention to and study veterinary and biological science and know immensely more than you about the science of immunity and vaccines. Every health care recommendation that I make is based solely upon in my very best STUDIED judgement that it is in the very best interest of the pet (and its family) that I am treating.

By the way in these years of practice in a typical busy suburban veterinary practice, I have seen over 5000 cases of Parvo Virus infected dogs alone (with a very high mortality rate) and less than 200 cases of confirmed autoimmune disease (of which nearly all survived). Also Rabies vaccine is mandated by law in all states. The decision whether or not to vaccinate is out of the Veterinarian’s hands. We are ethically and legally required to recommend and require Rabies vaccination. In addition, there really is no clear linkage between vaccines as causative of autoimmune disease but I am regularly on watch for any scientific articles pertaining to this and as with all other legitimate information, I will use it and any other information to better inform my practice of loving, passionate Veterinary medicine.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
23. Welcome to DU. You might want to fix your second sentence...
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:18 PM
Jan 2015

"I am highly offended by the implication that myself, and virtually every other veterinarian that I know, have dedicated our careers to SAVING pets lives."

Why would you be offended by being accused of dedicating your career to saving pets lives??

What school did you go to? One of my daughter's very best friends is going to Veterinarian school.

Also, it pays to pay attention. The OP tagged the original post as sarcasm. Perhaps your response is sarcasm as well...

 

crayn

(10 posts)
27. Oops
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:24 PM
Jan 2015

Got it, thanks. Always need to proofread.
I went to the University of Georgia. GO Dawgs!
Congrats to your friends daughter - good luck!

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
24. Welcome to DU and
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:21 PM
Jan 2015

the post you are replying to is sarcasm. Notice the in it? It is not meant seriously and I do vaccinate.

 

crayn

(10 posts)
38. Oops again
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:31 PM
Jan 2015

I am new here and was actually replying to former9thward's comments. And there was no sarcasm in my original reply. I am just concerned that someone may make a deadly decision for their pet based on faulty recommendations by fellow DUers. I fear sometimes I may over react.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
40. No worries, it gets confusing here sometimes and I agree with what you write.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:34 PM
Jan 2015

I am strongly pro-vx except, of course, for the few who have health issues or allergies or the like. There have been other vets here and a lot of us other health care people posting in vaccine threads.

My top post, the one, starting the thread, was the one with sarcasm. former9thward's comments were serious, which is serious.

There was one Duer who proudly talked of breeding their 2 lb dog at her first heat to get cute puppies. That didn't go over well either.

 

crayn

(10 posts)
55. Thanks
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:57 PM
Jan 2015

Yeah, sorry. I clearly think we need to do more to discredit or at least confront the anti-vaxers whenever possible.

smokey nj

(43,853 posts)
25. Welcome to DU!
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:22 PM
Jan 2015

Don't let it get you down. The poster to whom I think you are referring also thought it was fine and dandy that Sarah Palin let her son stand on their dog. Take what he says with less than a grain of salt.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
28. Conversely, pay attention to the sarcasm tag.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:24 PM
Jan 2015
This jabbery partaken of by DUers across threads gets tiresome. Put the notebooks and the printscreens and bookmarks away, people.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
34. That is not the post the person was referring to.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:29 PM
Jan 2015

He missed the sarcasm tag. I don't care what post you were referring to, it still makes DU suck.

I have no idea what you have or haven't posted in your time here on DU, because I don't reference what you have or haven't posted across threads. See? I'm with the anti-note-taking brigade.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
39. Why the "fuck" I'm "discussing" and not "attacking" you...
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:33 PM
Jan 2015

I am addressing the penchant DUers have, regardless of the post referred to, of bringing up past history in a new thread. I spend less and less time here because of it. And yes, I will call posters out on dragging out notebooks, bookmarks, etc. all the time.

smokey nj

(43,853 posts)
43. You are attacking me and I don't appreciate it. I hardly ever respond to threads because of nasty
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:36 PM
Jan 2015

people like you. Seriously, you're the one who's making DU suck.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
45. One person's "attack" is another's "discussion." I'll continue to call out the dredger uppers.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:37 PM
Jan 2015

For making DU suck.



Edited for missing apostrophe.

ScreamingMeemie

(68,918 posts)
50. Best of luck!
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:41 PM
Jan 2015

I do behoove you to put away the notebook and bookmarks.

A few weeks ago, someone dredged up a 3-year old post to defend themselves against another poster. Who has time to remember what one person says to another this week last week or the week before that... on the Internets??? Life is short...clear your cache, go for a walk...breathe... spend time with your loved ones. You never know what can happen from day to day. I hope this makes you think about things like the Palin commentary about whatever poster upset you.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
51. I remember the most egregious posts, and those about hurting beings.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:44 PM
Jan 2015

For instance, breeding a 2 lb dog at her first heat.

smokey nj

(43,853 posts)
52. I don't have either. The Sarah Palin thing happened within the last few weeks and I remembered an
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:44 PM
Jan 2015

interaction with that poster. That is all. Stop being so nasty.

Response to smokey nj (Reply #25)

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
36. Why do I vaccinate my darling puppy, because I want her to be with me as long as possible.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:31 PM
Jan 2015

I am an expert in giving love but I need the vet to check her over and keep her shots up to date. It us a small price to pay for her love to me.

former9thward

(31,941 posts)
53. There are plenty of vets that disagree with you.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:48 PM
Jan 2015

I am sure you know that. As far as being "legally required" to require Rabies shots please don't act like you are a third party. These shots are required because vets have lobbied state legislatures to require them. Annual shots make up about 20% of a vets practice income.

 

crayn

(10 posts)
57. I don't think the law is what you think it is.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:11 PM
Jan 2015

I suggest that before you make a bigger fool of yourself that you do some research on the true history of the laws which you seem to think you understand.

The rabies vaccine mandate comes from state and federal public health statutes designed to protect human health. It has nothing to do with veterinary (or even Big Pharma) lobbying. This goes back to the dawn of modern public health care. Our pets are considered a "buffer" between us and the rabies virus reservoir in wildlife. Rabies is one of, if not the most, deadly disease in human history (do some research, its easy). You DO NOT survive rabies infection. It is real, it is here.

Do you also imply that it is somehow wrong for me to charge for my services?

former9thward

(31,941 posts)
62. Have you heard of Current Veterinary Therapy by Kirk?
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:23 PM
Jan 2015

It states "The practice of annual vaccinations lacks scientific validity or verification. There is no immunological requirement for annual vaccinations. The practice of annual vaccinations should be considered of questionable efficacy unless it is used as a mechanism to provide an annual physical examination or is required by law."

Let's hear from a vet, Dr. John Fudens, D.V.M.:

Let me give you an example of Pinellas County, FL where my Affinity Clinic is located. I secured information from Pinellas Animal Control through the Freedom of Information Act. The record of animal control starts in 1964. From 1964 to 1978 there were zero cases of dog rabies in the county. Magically in 1978 rabies vaccine was mandated to be given every year and all dogs tagged and licensed. WHY? Well it seems four veterinarians, with animal control bureaucrats, pushed the county board of supervisors to pass a law mandating rabies vaccination every year. There were three local vets and one professor from the State Veterinary College who were behind this. It was interesting reading their letters pushing this law and the minutes of the county meeting. There was talk of dogs biting people (no actual figures given), dogs running loose, animal overpopulation, rabies on the increase in the U.S. (the increase was in wildlife, not dogs), etc.,etc. Not once was the issue discussed that there was no rabies in the county in dogs. To this date there still has not been one case of dog rabies, including the population of dogs whose owners, GOD BLESS THEM, do not vaccinate for rabies. Let's go further.

From 1964 to 1989 there were no cases of rabies in cats in Pinellas County. Magically in 1989 a law was passed mandating rabies vaccination, tags and licenses for all cats. Same tired worn out excuses were used. Since the 1989 law there was one cat with rabies contracted from the bite of a bat. DO YOU READERS REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE JUST STATED? This is standard throughout the Country. No allowance is made for dogs/cats who never leave the house or yard, could never be exposed to rabies under any circumstances, or who are so ill, old or at the end of their life cycle that the rabies vaccine would throw them over the edge. No, all dogs and cats are treated the same because we have the bogeyman, rabies, stalking the streets waiting to strike unprotected dogs and cats.


http://www.whale.to/vaccines/fudens.html

Who is the fool now? I don't care what you charge for your services. You won't be getting my money.

 

crayn

(10 posts)
66. one reference?
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:30 PM
Jan 2015

Who said anything about annual vaccines?

PS
And where did you get your public health degree?

 

crayn

(10 posts)
74. You're welcome
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 08:42 PM
Jan 2015

An MS in public health should allow a deep understanding of disease and population dynamics. I applaud this. If your opinion is truly based on this understanding of the science, then I can't argue with your opinion. Like assholes, everyone has one.

hlthe2b

(102,130 posts)
83. If you ever saw a puppy dying of distempter or parvovirus, you would not ask that...
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:13 PM
Jan 2015

Nor the poor person whose dog ends up either forceably quarantined or euthanized after exposure to wildlife rabies.

This is a no-brainer. Those telling you otherwise are the ones you need to question

Frankly, uppityperson, I was shocked to see this posted by you

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
80. Did you ever stop to think, that maybe...
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:02 PM
Jan 2015

They called for greater vaccination because OTHER animals were being found in the county with rabies. You like skunks, raccoons, bats, etc? See, there are whole other scientists that MONITOR shit like that so they can prevent problems before they arise. If the reservoir of infectious disease it great, it would make sense to call for increase vaccination as a precautionary measure. If you knew anything about epidemiology (which you obviously do not), you would know that usually once the disease has entered the target population, a lot of the damage is done and cannot be avoided.

This is why non-scientists need to be called ontheir mistakes.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
82. Because rabies vxs are preventing pets from getting rabies, they are vaccinating needlessly? WTF?
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:12 PM
Jan 2015
http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/location/usa/index.html
Over the last 100 years, rabies in the United States has changed dramatically. More than 90% of all animal cases reported annually to CDC now occur in wildlife; before 1960 the majority were in domestic animals. The principal rabies hosts today are wild carnivores and bats.
The number of rabies-related human deaths in the United States has declined from more than 100 annually at the turn of the century to one or two per year in the 1990's. Modern day prophylaxis has proven nearly 100% successful.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_rabies#United_States
Southern United States[edit]
Rabies was once rare in the United States outside the Southern states, but raccoons in the mid-Atlantic and northeast United States have been suffering from a rabies epidemic since the 1970s, that is now moving westwards into Ohio.[13]

The particular variant of the virus has been identified in the southeastern United States raccoon population since the 1950s, and is believed to have traveled to the northeast as the result of infected raccoons being among those caught and transported from the southeast to the northeast by human hunters attempting to replenish the declining northeast raccoon population.[14] As a result, urban residents of these areas have become more wary of the large but normally unseen urban raccoon population. It has become the common assumption that any raccoon seen diurnally is infected; certainly the reported behavior of most such animals appears to show some sort of illness, and necropsies can confirm rabies. Whether as a result of increased vigilance or only the common human avoidance reaction to any other animal not normally seen, such as a raccoon, there has only been one documented human rabies case as a result of this variant.[15][16] This does not include, however, the greatly increasing rate of prophylactic rabies treatments in cases of possible exposure, which numbered fewer than one hundred humans annually in the state of New York before 1990, for instance, but rose to approximately ten thousand annually between 1990 and 1995. At approximately $1,500 per course of treatment, this represents a considerable public health expenditure. Raccoons do constitute approximately 50% of the approximately eight thousand documented non-human rabies cases in the United States.[17] Domestic animals constitute only 8% of rabies cases, but are increasing at a rapid rate.[17]



In the midwestern United States, skunks are the primary carriers of rabies, composing 134 of the 237 documented non-human cases in 1996. The most widely distributed reservoir of rabies in the United States, however, and the source of most human cases in the U.S., are bats. Nineteen of the twenty-two human rabies cases documented in the United States between 1980 and 1997 have been identified genetically as bat rabies. In many cases, victims are not even aware of having been bitten by a bat, assuming that a small puncture wound found after the fact was the bite of an insect or spider; in some cases, no wound at all can be found, leading to the hypothesis that in some cases the virus can be contracted via inhaling airborne aerosols from the vicinity of bats. For instance, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) warned on May 9, 1997, that a woman who died in October, 1996 in Cumberland County, Kentucky and a man who died in December, 1996 in Missoula County, Montana were both infected with a rabies strain found in silver-haired bats; although bats were found living in the chimney of the woman's home and near the man's workplace, neither victim could remember having had any contact with them.[18] Similar reports among spelunkers led to experimental demonstration in animals.[19] This inability to recognize a potential infection, in contrast to a bite from a dog or raccoon, leads to a lack of proper prophylactic treatment, and is the cause of the high mortality rate for bat bites.

On September 7, 2007, rabies expert Dr. Charles Rupprecht of Atlanta-based U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said that canine rabies had disappeared from the United States. Rupprecht emphasized that the disappearance of the canine-specific strain of rabies virus in the US does not eliminate the need for dog rabies vaccination as dogs can still become infected from exposure to wildlife.[20]

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
97. many times I've told my saintly vet that I'd far rather have him as my own doctor
Sun Feb 1, 2015, 02:19 AM
Feb 2015

for my own illnesses/injuries. Dr. B and Dr. P always spend as much time as necessary to answer all of my questions and concerns, they always schedule so they can see their patients on time, they'll crawl on the floor on their bellies if need be to see or feel what they need to since my huge beastie is terrified of the raisable exam table, they've cut prices for me to less than what they have to pay themselves for medications or treatments, they'll always recommend over-the-counter human meds for things if that will work (pepto, immodium, benedryl, tylenol, etc.), don't recommend nor sell any cheap commercial dog food or other unnecessary products, and always seem to know and recommend where certain products can be purchased as discounted prices, etc., etc.

They've also cried themselves when the worst news about a pet patient is discovered or when a pet patient has to be euthanized.

Not an iota of this compassionate and expert care have I ever received from any human medical professional from paramedics to surgeons.

Bless you for providing expert and compassionate care for so many beloved pets. If only most human medical professionals were even half as good.

 

blackcrow

(156 posts)
102. crayn
Sun Feb 1, 2015, 08:43 AM
Feb 2015

Cats are not legally required to have rabies vaccinations in California, for example, and some other states allow the vet to make the decision if medical conditions make the vaccination unwise.

 

crayn

(10 posts)
103. Rabies vaccination
Sun Feb 1, 2015, 11:34 AM
Feb 2015

The requirements for rabies vaccination vary with the states and sometimes municipalities. In my state veterinarians are not allowed to make exceptions from the rabies mandate even if it may be in an individual pet's best health interest not to vaccinate. If we deviate from this (which happens when necessary), we do take some risk with our license to practice. We, as all citizens, are bound by the law as written. Cats are required to be vaccinated in my state as well.

Contrary to what some misguided souls, like our former9thward, almost all veterinarians are committed to protecting the health of our patients. Heck, it is clearly in our selfish best interest to keep our patients alive! Dead pets don't pay well and we are still a business. A business that continually struggles with the choice of making a dollar or saving a life (we err on the side of lifesaver). We are also quite individualistic and deeply suspicious of drug companies. Still, we do frequently ally with them in honest efforts to provide better care for our patients because by and large they have made a tremendous investment in pet healthcare and also care about our best friends..

Phentex

(16,330 posts)
105. I am in Georgia and no vet has ever insisted on the rabies shot after my dog had a reaction...
Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:55 AM
Feb 2015

at age 4, he had a reaction to his vaccinations. He nearly died but after two blood transfusions, medication, and three weeks in the hospital, he survived. Because he was so young, we opted for every treatment available. The vet who administered the vaccines was the one who told me that they could not be certain which vaccine caused the immune system to break down. The only thing that was different was the leptospirosis portion which my dog had not had before. My other dog got all the same vaccines and had no issues. From then on, my big dog has not had vaccines. After my vet died and I took my dog and his medical history to new vets, not one has ever insisted on the rabies vaccine.

I will always vaccinate any dog I own that is able to receive vaccines. I will, however, spread out the vaccines so that they aren't all given at the same time. I also do not see the need for the lepto vaccine based on where I live and the lifestyle of my pets.

Would you make an exception in his case?

Godhumor

(6,437 posts)
81. I have a personal story that I am going through right now that is very relevant to this thread
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:04 PM
Jan 2015

Last edited Sat Jan 31, 2015, 09:41 PM - Edit history (1)

My family is adopting a puppy from the south and having it brought up here to the Northeast through a Carolina rescue operation. Our dog was supposed to arrive today, but that was unexpectedly delayed two weeks on Thursday.

You see, a very young puppy was just placed in that foster home and contacted parvo. The foster agency decided to delay our dog two weeks to make sure she doesn't get sick. Thankfully, she has been through three rounds of pavro vaccination and has an insanely little probability of contacting the virus.

Basically, without the rescue being so up-to-date with puppy vaccinations is the only reason our sweet golden retriever/husky mix is going to be joining our family. To the individual(s) claiming that vaccinations are all a money making scam...well, I am sure you can figure out what I think of that opinion.

Redford

(373 posts)
91. I'm a big believer of The rabies vaccine.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:29 PM
Jan 2015

Last spring a skunk came up out of the creek on my property and chased me thru the pasture. I retrieved my .22 from the tack room just in time to see it bite one horse several times on the front legs and then turn and come after me again. It managed to bite another horse in the same fashion that got between me and the skunk.

I retreated into the barn with my trusty .22 and when it came running down the breezeway at me I shot it several times. I called the county and they picked up the carcass at my house and shipped off to Austin to be tested. It came back positive for rabies. Both horses had been vaccinated two months earlier but were still quarantined on my property for the next 45 days.

My vet uses me as the example to his other clients as to why vaccination is important and I will never let their vaccinations slide.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
92. We have lots of raccoons around here and they can pass it on to their babies who show no signs
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:33 PM
Jan 2015

for quite some time. I am glad you shot it before it bit you. Rabies is very important not only for your pet but for everyone and everything else.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
101. My head almost exploded.
Sun Feb 1, 2015, 05:38 AM
Feb 2015

I thought a hacker had gotten your account, until I saw the sarcasm tag.

I was getting ready to post Old Yeller links galore.

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