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Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:03 PM

 

Racism

Is it a two way street, even if one lane is wider than the other?

73 replies, 5046 views

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Arrow 73 replies Author Time Post
Reply Racism (Original post)
GummyBearz Feb 2015 OP
Brickbat Feb 2015 #1
GummyBearz Feb 2015 #6
kwassa Feb 2015 #8
GummyBearz Feb 2015 #9
JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #11
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #19
Donald Ian Rankin Feb 2015 #40
AverageJoe90 Feb 2015 #42
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #49
AverageJoe90 Feb 2015 #65
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #66
AverageJoe90 Feb 2015 #67
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #2
GummyBearz Feb 2015 #10
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #15
kwassa Feb 2015 #18
treestar Feb 2015 #37
smirkymonkey Feb 2015 #47
uponit7771 Feb 2015 #50
uppityperson Feb 2015 #3
ZombieHorde Feb 2015 #4
Glassunion Feb 2015 #12
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #17
Glassunion Feb 2015 #22
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #24
Glassunion Feb 2015 #30
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #31
Glassunion Feb 2015 #35
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #36
Glassunion Feb 2015 #38
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #45
phil89 Feb 2015 #32
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #34
gollygee Feb 2015 #20
kwassa Feb 2015 #21
Glassunion Feb 2015 #23
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #33
ZombieHorde Feb 2015 #25
Glassunion Feb 2015 #39
ZombieHorde Feb 2015 #51
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #57
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #16
ZombieHorde Feb 2015 #27
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #28
ZombieHorde Feb 2015 #29
NaturalHigh Feb 2015 #5
kwassa Feb 2015 #7
Glassunion Feb 2015 #13
JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #14
daleanime Feb 2015 #26
AverageJoe90 Feb 2015 #41
kwassa Feb 2015 #48
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #54
NaturalHigh Feb 2015 #64
noiretextatique Apr 2015 #73
romanic Feb 2015 #43
AverageJoe90 Feb 2015 #44
romanic Feb 2015 #46
Dyedinthewoolliberal Feb 2015 #53
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #55
romanic Feb 2015 #58
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #59
randys1 Feb 2015 #61
Name removed Feb 2015 #63
romanic Feb 2015 #68
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #69
romanic Feb 2015 #70
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #72
kwassa Feb 2015 #60
romanic Feb 2015 #71
Dyedinthewoolliberal Feb 2015 #52
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #56
randys1 Feb 2015 #62

Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:09 PM

1. How do you define racism?

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:30 PM

6. I go by the dictionary definition

 

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:33 PM

8. That's fine. You'll find that many go by another definition.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:36 PM

9. Yea

 

Hence my question. I'm trying to get to the bottom of this topic as I was told I am one. I'd really prefer not to be

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #9)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:20 PM

11. At DU?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6215633

The post where you talked about that race card that some sections of the white population in America are always whining about because their glorious founding fathers put it in the deck?

Don't hate the player - hate the game.

Was that what one of the jurors told you when they opted to hide that post?

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Response to kwassa (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:50 PM

19. ... the definition used by the social scientists ...

 

that study and write about racism.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 05:22 AM

40. Many on DU, but not many as a whole. N.T.

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 05:50 AM

42. True, but don't also forget.....

 

Collective hate, fear, and/or distrust of an ethnic group and/or groups as well.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 11:07 AM

49. If you think Beck earned the Grammy over Beyonce.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #49)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 11:41 PM

65. Pardon me, but how is *that* racist, necessarily? (Or are you just being facetious?) nt

 

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Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #65)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 11:46 PM

66. I'm just passing along what was explained to me.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #66)

Sun Feb 15, 2015, 02:02 AM

67. Oh, I see now.

 

Yeah, I have a feeling that we'll probably agree that such an accusation is pretty over the top. People are going to have different musical tastes; preferring one individual artist or another doesn't necessarily make them bigoted, no matter if they're a record executive, or just the average Jack or Jenna on the street. I hope you enjoyed your Valentine's Day.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:16 PM

2. No. n/t

 

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:49 PM

10. May I ask

 

Which the human races are capable of being racist, and which are not?

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:42 PM

15. Racism, according to the weight of 20th century social science ...

 

is Race-based bigotry plus institutional/culture power.

http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/papers/caleb/racism.html

So, with that information, should you choose to absorb it ... I will let you answer your own question.

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:49 PM

18. The dominant race that has the power to create systemic and institutionalized racism ....

throughout a country and across other nations. Which race might that be?

The others can be bigoted, but don't have the power to cause damage to others on a societal level.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 12:56 AM

37. True. Though what might happen

as the US is not the only place in the world. Have white people dominated the planet?

What of communities of Indians in Tanzania, or of Asians in Latin America? They are minorities in places and could it be possible the black/Latin people in those countries might create the systems and dominate? Is it a human trait which could arise in any situation and it be other than white people in charge of the structure?

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Response to kwassa (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 09:51 AM

47. +1000

 

This is the crux of the matter.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 11:31 AM

50. +1

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:16 PM

3. What?

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:26 PM

4. Racism means different things to different people.

For some people, racism is a power conflict, so those with less power can never be racist. For other people, racism is bigotry based on skin color.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:26 PM

12. Words should not be redefined. Unless your a fan of double-speak and a memory hole.

If I call someone a racist it should carry the weight of the word behind it. It should not be redefined beyond its true meaning.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:48 PM

17. Does/do science/scientists ...

 

not redefine/refine the definition of terms all the time to more accurately describe their observations?

http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/papers/caleb/racism.html

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #17)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 10:05 PM

22. Terms are not redefined by science.

They are refined. I.e... Pluto is not a planet, no wait... Yes it is... No wait, no it's not.

By definition a planet is still a planet, science has refined it, by excluding objects like Pluto, and given definition to a new words like Dwarf Planet or
Kuiper belt object. A planet is still a planet.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #22)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 10:55 PM

24. Okay ...

 

Last edited Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:57 PM - Edit history (1)

Scientists refine definitions of terms to more accurately describe their observations, all the time.

Better?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:38 PM

30. True.

But to me "terms" should fit a definition. Definitions should not be twisted to fit the term. They can be refined, but not twisted.

This is why I should not get involved in META threads.

I grew up a child of an interracial couple in Georgia. I've had my share of racism. To me, racism is: that race determines human traits and or capabilities, and in that a belief, an inherent superiority of one over another. And with that, justification for ill treatment or violence against others based solely on their race.

I have been the victim of racism. I have been beaten to the point of urinating blood for days because I dared to date a white woman. On the other hand I have also been guilty of it myself. I have since grown, and reflected upon my own evil.

Racism, by definition is evil. I have had that evil trust upon me, and in turn I have dispensed that same evil. I strongly regret that period in my life.

So to me, to brand someone a racist is a charge of significant weight. I do not toss it out lightly or with nonchalance. I wish for my words to carry the weight of their true definition, not some watered down feel-good, family friendly version.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #30)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:47 PM

31. I largely agree ...

 

except for your definition, as it is does not reflect the weight of academic study.

Further, racial bigotry + institutional power, is not watered down, feel good or family friendly ... it is what the social scientists that study the phenomena have observed.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 12:16 AM

35. Agreed.

Racial bigotry fits perfectly into the definition of racism. And on its face evil.

Institutional racism also fits the definition of racism. And is evil as well.

To me racism is not one particular race or another. It is the supposition of one race being superior to another. From that you have institutional racism, bigotry, etc... They are evil no matter the race of the oppressed.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 12:25 AM

36. Oppressed is the key word ...

 

Last edited Fri Feb 13, 2015, 08:12 AM - Edit history (1)

treated unfairly, belittled, offended, insulted, embarrassed, treated badly, even, beaten is not being oppressed ... being oppressed lasts long beyond the inter-personal encounter.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #36)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 01:19 AM

38. Oppression IMHO includes many of those things.

Oppression is: the the unjust (or cruel) exercise of authority or power.

If that "authority" comes from a racist (feeling of racial superiority) point of view, it is oppression.

If you are treated unfairly (unjustly) because of your race, that is oppression.
If you are belittled because of your race, that is oppression. To belittle someone is to cause that person to feel little or less, hence the inherent feeling of superiority in racism.
Being offended, insulted, embarrassed, well... that depends on the situation. But if someone goes out of their way to do that to you because of your race, that can be oppression.
Being beaten because of nothing more than your race. In my personal experience, the "they" that did it, was to put me in my place. I was doing something I should not have been doing. That was oppression. They were exercising their power (not authority) over me to dictate what I could or could not do based on my race.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #38)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 08:17 AM

45. Exactly ...

 

what "power" or "authority" do PoC possession over white people in the US?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:50 PM

32. Social sciences are not

 

like math and physics. They tend to be very subjective even in the best of circumstances.

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Response to phil89 (Reply #32)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:56 PM

34. So their observations and conclusions are to be ignored ...

 

or to be questioned, using Webster's or wiki as an authority ... at least for the purposes of this discussion. Right?

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:51 PM

20. It's interesting

Most white people define it the way you and the OP do, but most people of color define it as structural imbalances, or discrimination plus systemic power. But it's seen as "redefinition" if you don't accept the general view of white people, which is an example of how racism is structural. And then people use the dictionary as proof, which is precisely structural. The opinions of people of color don't often get into the dictionary because people of color are not generally the ones writing dictionaries.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #20)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:54 PM

21. Excellent post, a great and brief summation.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #20)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 10:07 PM

23. Since I never gave a definition, please do tell me what my definition is.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #23)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:51 PM

33. Posted without comment ...

 

To me, racism is: that race determines human traits and or capabilities, and in that a belief, an inherent superiority of one over another.

Post #30

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:01 PM

25. What's the true meaning of the word "racism?" nt

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #25)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 01:41 AM

39. Definition

From my post #30: That race determines human traits and or capabilities, and in that a belief, an inherent superiority of one over another. And with that, justification for ill treatment or violence against others based solely on their race.

I would not define it as a power conflict where those who do not have the power or authority cannot exercise in racism. A power conflict would be more aptly defined as oppression. The oppressed, by virtue of the lack of power or authority cannot be the oppressor.

Race is simply a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits. Racism is the belief that there is an inherent superiority in those distinctive traits, and that justifies the ill treatment or violence of the perceived inferior race(s).

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #39)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 12:32 PM

51. I think that is the common definition, but many don't use that definition.

In my opinion, describing behavior and how it affects people is better than any label any day, since labeling something "racist" rarely seems to change anyone's mind or behavior.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #51)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 01:46 AM

57. Nor does describing behavior and how ...

 

It affects others, apparently.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:45 PM

16. And for academics, i.e., the 20th century social scientist that study the topic ...

 

the former is the more accurate description of the matter.

http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/papers/caleb/racism.html

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #16)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:09 PM

27. I agree, but I don't think that is the common use of the word in the US.

I don't always feel comfortable using the word because I don't know how people will define it in their heads. When I remember, I like to use "systematic racism," "racial bigotry," and phrases like that because I feel there will be less confusion. I know how you use the word because I read a fuck ton of your posts since you're one of my favorite DUers, but even when I'm writing to you I know lots of other people will read the post.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #27)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:16 PM

28. Funny ...

 

I rarely find myself using any of those terms ... other than to update a follow DUer's usage of the term.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:33 PM

29. You usually describe what you're talking about.

You don't fear details.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:30 PM

5. Of course it is.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:31 PM

7. Racism is more of a sinkhole in the street.


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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:28 PM

13. Petulant childishness over a hidden post is also a two way street.

However, both ways are a META thread and should be locked as off topic.

Just saying.

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Response to Glassunion (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:36 PM

14. +1 N/T

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:09 PM

26. More of a parking lot....

during christmas shopping.



Too many damn idiots.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 05:49 AM

41. According to pretty much every single valid definition out there......yes.

 

Without a doubt, yes. Anybody can be racist towards anybody, at least on an intrapersonal level, anyway, regardless of what country they live in(For example, Uighurs in China are an oppressed group in that country, but they can still be racist towards Chinese, and Palestinians can be racist against Israeli Jews, etc.).

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Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #41)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 10:15 AM

48. Oh. You're back. And inserting yourself into race threads again.

Can't get enough of it, can you?

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Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #41)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 01:20 AM

54. And by "valid definition" you mean ....

 

The non-academic, lay definition from 30+ years ago. Right? You really should update your literary file.

We've had this dance before and the weight of academia remain in the 21sr century.

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Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #41)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 10:26 PM

64. Good points.

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Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #41)

Sun Apr 26, 2015, 11:10 PM

73. one of the favorite tactics used to confuse

American white supremacy...the system. What does "anbody can be racist" have to do with our peculiar problem in the USA? Is it an "everybody can be racist problem" or is it an institutional racism problem?

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 06:59 AM

43. Racism has many defintions imo.

To me, the definition of racism lies in the eyes of the individual. For me, I've dealt with ignorance and straight up racial hate from whites, blacks and even my some of my lighter-skinned Puerto-Rican brothers and sisters. I grew up in a diverse but segregated (along racial lines) metro Detroit suburb and saw whites hostile to blacks, blacks hostile to whites, Hispanics hostile to both blacks and whites, and hostility towards Arabs from other racial groups. Some people believe in the dictionary, others believe there's a power structure tied to racism; for me I don't use either, just what I've gone through and seen with my own eyes.

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Response to romanic (Reply #43)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 07:23 AM

44. Welcome to DU, romanic. =)

 

And thanks for sharing your story. Hope you enjoy your time here.

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Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #44)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 08:21 AM

46. Thanks

Thanks for the welcome Joe.

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Response to romanic (Reply #43)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 12:48 PM

53. Hey homie!

Though I haven't lived in the D for a long time.

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Response to romanic (Reply #43)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 01:29 AM

55. Welcome to DU ...

 

Do you/would you define it differently if shown that the weight of social scientists writing on the topic subscribe to the race-based bigotry plus institutional/power definition?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #55)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 01:50 AM

58. Thanks for the welcome. :D

To answer your question, I wouldn't really let anyone regardless of their research or findings change what I feel and think and experience when it comes to racism. What i see for myself trumps what others say when it comes to that. Hope i made sense.

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Response to romanic (Reply #58)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 10:36 AM

59. I understand what you said ...

 

I don't understand why you would resist accepting the academic research that refines our understanding of the phenomena.

Understanding the characteristics of the phenomena is the next step in ending the phenomena.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #59)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 12:18 PM

61. Yes you do understand why people would resist new information that would force them to

rethink their old biases.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #59)


Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #59)

Sun Feb 15, 2015, 02:18 AM

68. I'm not resisting anything.

I just think experience trumps "academic research".

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Response to romanic (Reply #68)

Sun Feb 15, 2015, 03:15 AM

69. Okay. ...

 

You don't see that as resistance?

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #69)

Sun Feb 15, 2015, 05:53 AM

70. No.

What else do you want me to say?

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Response to romanic (Reply #70)

Sun Feb 15, 2015, 10:42 AM

72. I don't know ...

 

I'm just trying to figure out how/why someone that, no doubt (if you're on a liberal message board), accepts academic observations and conclusions in so many other areas touching your life, won't accept them in this specific area?

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Response to romanic (Reply #43)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 11:27 AM

60. My Detroit suburb was whites only.

Huntington Woods, when I was little.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #60)

Sun Feb 15, 2015, 05:54 AM

71. Another Michigandier. :)

Not entirely familiar with Huntington Woods though I've heard of it. I grew up further north in Pontiac which had it's own ugly history with racism/segregation.

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Response to GummyBearz (Original post)

Fri Feb 13, 2015, 12:36 PM

52. Not sure what you are asking

Can you be more specific?

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Response to Dyedinthewoolliberal (Reply #52)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 01:34 AM

56. He/she is asking ...

 

"Can, both, white AND Black people be racist" ... Again.

I've noticed variations of this question a lot on DU ... Usually, within minutes of the person inquiring having written something that a PoC points out might be trending racist. (See: the now hidden Post #5 in the " Little league cheating " thread.)

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #56)

Sat Feb 14, 2015, 12:20 PM

62. In America only whites can be racist, now Black folk can be and sometimes are very BIGOTED

towards white people, the white people who call them names, lynch them, steal from them, refuse them loans, charge them more for loans.

Wont hire them, wont rent to them.

If I was a Black American, you would need a better word than bigot for what I would feel.

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