I remember how sick and hurt, bitter and ashamed I felt in 2003 watching the invasion gather

[Fumesucker]

Knowing it was based on lies and ultimately destined to be a failure, the lies were obvious to anyone paying attention at the time and the outcome was also obvious to anyone with a modicum of understanding of the history of the region.

The final vote to give Bush his war to show he was a bigger man than his father is something that still raises bile in my throat if I dwell on it much, particularly knowing the truly disgusting, inhuman and dishonorable things done in the pursuit of that war.

Any face associated with that war still brings those feelings back when I see them, I can't help but think of the blood spilled and the human sacrifices made in the pursuit of that horrific and ultimately counterproductive mistake whenever I see someone I associate with that war.

I sat absolutely shocked for a long time after the Senate vote for the IWR, anyone paying attention knew Bush was going to invade, he was practically drooling on himself in quivering anticipation. I felt lost, abandoned, nauseated and most of all ashamed, ashamed that I could not do more to stop the senseless slaughter we all knew was coming.

And this song was running through my head.

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why don't they go out to fight
They leave that all to the poor

[nashville_brook]

1. perfect song for that year.

as i remember there were the largest protests world-wide to stop that shit. everyone tried to stop it. now it seems like normal -- when have we not been at war with "Eastasia"?

[AngryDem001]

56. No. We have always been at war with Eurasia.

[Jackpine Radical]

153. You are right, and your point deserves more than a gliding over

and an odd feeling of nostalgia for the feelings of solidarity among the activist groups and others in those times. My county Dems' chair was a Vet for Peace, my wife & many of her friends stood with Women in Black, we organized unified events among the local faiths. I remember Christians, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Bah'ai, and pagans getting together for several celebrations of each other. It was a small flowering in a dreadful period in our history.

I think we really need to examine what happened--not only then, but in prototype in GW I, that permitted them to shift public opinion so rapidly. In GW I, in case you don't recall, the general public, still hurting from Vietnam, opposed it by huge numbers (70 or 80%iirc); within a matter of a couple of weeks, they had absolutely turned those numbers around, and the vast majority supported the war.

Somehow they perfected their techniques between the 2 wars. Maybe Grenada was just a field test of some kind.

Those protests you mentioned were hardly even noticed; they already had such tight control of the media that few images of the millions protesting in NYC and elsewhere ever made it to the general public.

[ReRe]

163. The turn-around in public opinion...

... is due to the power of propaganda, which every television station delivered.

And as for the protests against GW's wars, as I recall, GW referred to them as "focus groups." Millions of people in the streets all over the USA and the world, and he called them focus groups.

And the "Mission Accomplished" sign over his shoulder? The "mission" that the sign referred to was the mission of successfully launching a WAR.

[nashville_brook]

172. the source material is there -- control of the media from embedding to Generals propagandizing

for the war...to the lies on the front page of the New York Times (and mysterious "suicides&quot ...we KNOW what happened. we just can't do anything about it except watch our kids slip further into cynicism and apathy.

it's all about information and how ironic is it, that in the "information age" when, by the numbers, we have access to more reportage, that as a body-politic we shun the voices in the wilderness and fix our gaze on the shadows dancing on the walls of our caves.

[Xipe Totec]

2. Baghdad & Tenochtitlán, Historical Parallels

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Xipe%20Totec/8

Nov 6, 2014

On the day we invaded Iraq I ended a friendship over this issue. This is the text of the last letter I sent her. Somehow, knowing that I was right, has not cleared the taste of ashes and gall from my mouth. I am so ashamed of what we have done. And heartbroken that nearly half my countrymen still cannot see the horror:


March 23, 2003

I deeply regret to hear that you agree with this bellicose position. How many atrocities will we tolerate now and point to 9/11 as an excuse? We've already leveled Afghanistan. Now we're leveling Iraq, which even our own intelligence sources say has no links to Al Qaeda. We've launched a preemptive war against Iraq losing all claim of moral superiority over Imperial Japan for attacking Pearl Harbor.

The saddest thing about all this is watching this country tear the constitution and the bill of rights to shreds in the name of freedom liberty and democracy. We are slowly turning into a National Socialist state and we are so blinded by hatred we can't see it. By this measure, the terrorists won.

Almost five centuries ago the forces of Hernán Cortés laid siege and destroyed the Aztec city of Tenochtitlán. Cortés was motivated by a thirst for gold but he also genuinely believed in the moral superiority of his religious faith. To end the siege, the Aztecs had to surrender more than just their weapons, they had to also surrender their faith. So the siege continued until the defenders were too weak to cast stones and the conquerors walked over the emaciated bodies of the defenders. The memory of that disaster is seared into the Mexican consciousness to this very day; It poisoned relations between Mexico and Spain for 100 years after Mexican independence.

The Fall of Tenochtitlán:

Broken spears lie in the roads;
We have torn our hair in our grief
The houses are roofless now, and their walls
Are red with blood.

Worms are swarming in the streets and plazas,
And the walks are spattered with gore
The water has turned red, as if it were dyed
And when we drink it,
It has the taste of brine

We have pounded our hands in despair
Against the adobe walls,
For our inheritance, our city, is lost and dead
The shields of our warriors were its defense.
But they could not save it.

We have chewed dry twigs and salt grasses:
We have filled our mouths with dust and bits of adobe.
We have eaten lizards, rats and worms
When we had meat, we ate it almost raw.

- Cantares Mexicanos
The National Library of Mexico,
circa 1523

We have invaded Iraq and visited death and destruction upon its people. We too are motivated by a thirst for black gold, and we also genuinely believe in the moral superiority of our religion. Not since the conquest of Mexico has there been such a lopsided mismatch of weapons. The "war" with Iraq and the siege of Baghdad may not last three weeks but its aftermath will reverberate for countless generations. May the satisfaction of our victory outlast the collective memory of those who are about to receive our Democratic "blessing"

[elleng]

3. I agree,

and the most important part, the armageddon that would be unleashed as a result and that we're seeing now, I didn't realize at the time.

[Fumesucker]

7. I didn't realize either just how spectacularly that fool's errand would fail

Never dreamed it would go on more than twice as long as WWII..

Sherman was both right and wrong, war is hell but it's hell on the wrong people.

[polly7]

112. Did it fail, or did it succeed beyond their wildest dreams?

Perpetual war and the billions it makes for the MIC, contractors, IMF oligarchs and corporations who rush in, new bases from which to start it all over again?

I don't believe for a second one bit of this was unexpected.

[elleng]

128. Probably unexpected by some,

like W. Among the others, some may have thought it possible, but I'm not sure of that; really, a world wide cultural war, thought of even by rums, wolfo, cheney, etc.

[sabrina 1]

130. It was a total success beyond the wildest dreams of the war profiteers/criminals. And it continues

to be more than a decade later.

But if you ever believed the REASONS they gave to get the support of the public, is was a horrible failure, costing hundreds of thousands of human lives, placing us in MORE DANGER than ever, according Diane Feinstein and Rodgers both admitting, inadvertently, in their effort to get MORE money for MORE war profiteers.

[erronis]

143. But isn't that THEIR definition of success?

Don't worry. THEY have taken care of THEMSELVES and all of THEIR spawn. The rest of us be damned - and THEY've done a good job of it.

[sabrina 1]

152. Yes, and we don't count. But some of 'us' bought into the lies, even some of our elected officials

helped make their dreams come true. For those ordinary people who did believe them, it is has been a massive failure. Which I know, doesn't count.

That is how bad things are right now.

So, what are we going to do to change things? They are getting ready to repeat the massive 'mistake' in Iraq and we have people now on the Left who are willing to go along, some of them the same people who opposed it over a decade ago.

[JonLP24]

166. Bingo

I should also point out the largest UN embassy is in Iraq & human trafficking violations have been reported there (there are more subcontracted by private defense contractors foreign migrant workers than anyone else working in US bases & they outnumber military trucks 25-1 on long distance supply transportation convoys in Iraq--which is what I did '06-'07)

The known early (possible) mistakes were is US forces were guarding the oil fields while Iraq was being looted. IS funds itself with (among many other ways) black market ancient artifacts transactions.

They also cut loose military personnel of the Ba'athist regime. Out of work, no opportunities, many used their skills for opposition forces. Some of which, are now with IS. The "correct" decision is said to scoop 'em up, hire em, use them for your side.


Have We Ever Gotten to the Bottom of Exactly 'Why' Bush and the Neocons Disastrously Invaded Iraq?

Some analysts have traced this idea back to the neocon Project for the New American Century in the late 1990s, which advocated for “regime change” in Iraq. But the idea’s origins go back to the early 1990s and to two seminal events.

The first game-changing moment came in 1990-91 when President George H.W. Bush showed off the unprecedented advancements in U.S. military technology. Almost from the moment that Iraq’s Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990, the Iraqi dictator began signaling his willingness to withdraw after having taught the arrogant al-Sabah ruling family in Kuwait a lesson in power politics.

<snip>

Peace feelers from Hussein and later from Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev were rebuffed as Bush-41 waited his chance to demonstrate the stunning military realities of his New World Order. Even the U.S. field commander, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, favored Gorbachev’s plan for letting Iraqi forces pull back, but Bush-41 was determined to have a ground war.

So, Gorbachev’s plan was bypassed and the ground war commenced with the slaughter of Iraqi troops, many of them draftees who were mowed down and incinerated as they fled back toward Iraq. After 100 hours, Bush-41 ordered a halt to the massacre. He then revealed a key part of his motivation by declaring: “We’ve kicked the Vietnam Syndrome once and for all.” [For details, see Robert Parry’s Secrecy & Privilege.]

http://www.alternet.org/world/have-we-ever-gotten-bottom-exactly-why-bush-and-neocons-disastrously-invaded-iraq

I'm not sure that is it or what the real reason (revolves around oil or who has the oil). Given Cheney's handle on things, they probably had an idea how long it would take. It had to be part of something long-term, strategic control & influence location. Our Jordan buddies to the CIA to the west, Iran to the East, Syria to the north. We don't care what's going on south.

Wikileaks appeared the US was concerned over who would rule the Shias, they seemed to favor Iraqi Shia political leaders over Pro-Iran Shia Clerics. However, the guy the US managed to install in charge of Iraq allowed & didn't even try to slow down Iranian backed Shia militias, it is likely Iran is very connected to the government of Iraq so in a lot of ways we have two Irans bordering each other.

I have no idea regarding their intentions in implanting a "uniter" or a "divider", the US claims Al-Maliki is the guy to unite Iraq which obviously is either a mistake or they intentionally wanted the Iraq to be destabilized for another generation or so. I'm not sure how connected battalion commanders are to the top of the DoD chain but their "orders" to indiscriminately kill civilians was a contributing factor to terror groups, until their attacks on civilians turned Sunnis off which led to the "Sunni awakening", not sure if this was intended or a good mistake (interesting the NYT report on attacks attributed to IS is at the lowest point in 2007 despite the massive increase in violence, fighting, & casualties). In any case, it appears they chased them away or they went hiding in the shadows.

In fact, there are reports as early as 2006 Al-Maliki was imprisoning & torturing Sunnis so US received a very early heads up Al-Maliki wasn't uniting Iraq. 8 more years of this & re-branding from AQII & slick marketing came the 2014 "ISIS offensive".

Like Afghanistan, Iraq is in the top 5 of most corrupt governments though Afghanistan is actually much easier to pin down the ulterior motives even though many people probably feel it is a "legitimate" war. US & NATO post-cold war operations red flag, US caused the Afghanistan government to be entirely corrupt and this is based on the Pentagon's own admissions. CIA have teamed up with war lords & drug traffickers. The Taliban threw out the communists in charge back in the 70's with US help. Afghanistan suffered with one of the worst banking scandals in history.

I don't really believe Afghanistan was ever about terrorists, US has obvious economic interests in Afghanistan that over-rule whatever side issues they may have. Also, I wonder about the US activities in Columbia & their "Assisting the Colombian government against Narco traffickers" but there are many privatized militias fighting for the government side that are also heavily involved in drug trafficking, kidnapping, extortion, etc. I don't believe, with the profits to be made from drug trafficking that wealthy business interests that apparently direct US foreign policy wouldn't want a cut of those drug profits. They stamped out "mom-and-pop" meth labs but stepped on Cartel dope supply isn't seriously threatened. They make a killing of the precursors alone. Heroin was relatively rare in the Southwest in 2001, now it is very common.

Wachovia laundered $378 billion, I bet $378 billion also buys a lot of a lot business & political connections. Also HSCBC (or whatever) has done this & much, much more.

On edit - I forgot my point I wanted to add in Afghanistan. I'm not sure why citizens continue to overlook or downplay ulterior economic motives when it comes to anything at all regarding to foreign policy, press treatment of our "enemies", whoever the current enemy happens to be. While the US hypes up the 'bad guy', there remains far more deserving candidates for "regime change".

One more thing -- it is strange how we go from 80% war approval in 2003 to universally agreed on "pull the troops out", leave Iraq alone to their own devices, we can't afford any more casualties back to 55%+ approval for Iraq war

[sabrina 1]

168. Chelsea Manning warned about Maliki when she was in Iraq. She discovered that the Iraqi

Police were torturing 'protesters' not armed protesters, people who thought we had brought them 'democracy'. She reported it when she found out thinking, naively, that her superiors would not hand over any more prisoners to the Iraqi Police. Instead she was told to be quiet about it.

THAT is why she became a Whistle Blower, she could not stand to think of what was happening and realized what she had thought we were there for, was not true.

She, again, naively, thought if the American people found out, THEY would kick up enough of a fuss that it would be stopped. But sadly, the Propaganda machine painted her as a 'traitor' and the people paid no more attention.

IF they wanted Maliki to be a good, democratic leader who could unite Iraq, they would have stopped him from essentially doing what they had accused Saddam of doing.

The Iraqis were furious with Maliki when he handed over control of more than 80% of their oil to Global Oil Cartels (Kucinich revealed the clause in the agreement Iraq was to sign to end the war, but ONLY if they agreed to this) Laughable isn't it how often we were told it was not 'about Oil'.

So demonstrations began in Iraq against that agreement, peaceful demonstrations. Maliki sent out his forces to arrest, shoot, beat up the protesters and I guess they realized that the talk of 'democracy' simply meant, exchanging one bad leader for another, more compliant with the West, dictator.

So clearly they did not want a democratic leader. Democratic leaders will not hand over their country's assets. That is why most of our allies are dictators.

AND we are going back again! To repeat what we did before. Do they really think doing it all over again will succeed this time?

I have come to the conclusion they do not want 'success'. They want forever war. The Cold War ended and we had this powerful military, with a huge budget and nothing to do with it.

Then 'commies' became 'terrorists' and the War Money is flowing again. Imo, it's all about power and money.

[JonLP24]

169. I remember Edward Snowden said he planned to do the leaks much sooner

but believed in Obama's 2008 campaign promises. (Side note: It is very troubling that someone (for whatever reason) was a harsh critic from anything from the Patriot Act to "spying on American citizens" to "they keep us safe&quot

After http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/10/07/executive-order-13587-structural-reforms-improve-security-classified-net which came after and in response to Manning came the NSA leak.

There were numerous NSA leakers before & after Snowden. Drake saw a light at the end of tunnel regarding his prosecution, the government classified the unclassified material he revealed to a Baltimore Sun reporter.

These people saw something they believed was wrong, showed tremendous courage is doing something right but they're punished heavily for it. Situations like this remind me of the Sociopath-Apath-Empath triangle -- http://www.addictiontoday.org/addictiontoday/2013/10/empathy-trap-sociopath-triangle.html

The reason why I say that is forces behind these operations spend remarkable energy in keeping these things secrets, punish those as a warning to other potential empathetic employees all over something the average person doesn't even care about.

[CTyankee]

103. Good point. Unintended consequences are our undoing...

[Renew Deal]

4. Since we're talking about memories, let me give you one...

I was in NYC on 9/11 and saw pretty much everything after the second plane crashed including Tower 2 disappearing (I hoped behind the smoke) and Tower 1 collapsing. I had nothing to do so I walked as close to WTC as I could. Cops were trying to close the streets, but they couldn't close them all.

One of the things I remembered while walking down there was the PNAC "New Pearl Harbor" wish.

"Section V of Rebuilding America's Defenses, entitled "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force", includes the sentence: "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century#.22New_Pearl_Harbor.22

And this was in light of their letter to Bill Clinton about Iraq:

We are writing you because we are convinced that current American policy toward Iraq is not succeeding, and that we may soon face a threat in the Middle East more serious than any we have known since the end of the Cold War.

We urge you to articulate this aim, and to turn your Administration's attention to implementing a strategy for removing Saddam's regime from power. This will require a full complement of diplomatic, political and military efforts.

Sincerely,

Elliott Abrams Richard L. Armitage William J. Bennett

Jeffrey Bergner John Bolton Paula Dobriansky

Francis Fukuyama Robert Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad

William Kristol Richard Perle Peter W. Rodman

Donald Rumsfeld William Schneider, Jr. Vin Weber

Paul Wolfowitz R. James Woolsey Robert B. Zoellick

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5527.htm

I knew that day on the street that we were going to Iraq. The gangsters got their excuse.

[merrily]

5. Armitage the guy who outed Plame

[Renew Deal]

9. They're all crooks and most of them seem to have resurfaced.

[Fumesucker]

10. Oh yes...

[merrily]

21. politics makes bedfellows, strange and not so strange.

Will Marshall is one of the founders of the New Democrat movement, which aims to steer the US Democratic Party toward a more conservative orientation. Since its founding in 1989, he has been president of the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank affiliated with the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC).

He served on the board of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, an organization chaired by Joe Lieberman (I) and John McCain (R) designed to build support for the invasion of Iraq. Marshall also signed, at the outset of the war, a letter issued by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) expressing support for the invasion. Marshall signed a similar letter sent to President Bush put out by the Social Democrats USA on Feb. 25, 2003, just before the invasion. The SDUSA letter urged Bush to commit to "maintaining substantial U.S. military forces in Iraq for as long as may be required to ensure a stable, representative regime is in place and functioning."

He writes frequently on political and public policy matters, especially the "Politics of Ideas" column in Blueprint, the DLC's magazine. Notably, he is one of the co-authors of Progressive Internationalism: A Democratic National Security Strategy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Marshall

One of several reasons I never use the word "progressive" (except to discuss the word "progressive&quot

[sabrina 1]

80. They never went away. So many Bush holdovers still remain in place. Most of them in Defense. I

expected a clearing out when Dems won everything in 2008. Instead we not only didn't get rid of the neocons planted by Bush, we got MORE brought back, see Gates, eg into positions of power.

So it appears they are who actually run this country's foreign policies and no matter who is president, they remain in positions of power.

We are getting ready for another Iraq invasion. And maybe a Ukraine proxy war.

And who is going to stop them this time?

[TheKentuckian]

93. This is why "looking forward" and even "truth and reconciliation" are not just a fail but dangerous

and effectively complicit with the crimes, it allows the bad pennies to keep circulating and ever doing more damage as they keep pushing the envelope and as they do so resistance actually is being reduced while what was once criminal is codified or given the wink and nod by the only people who can hold them accountable.

[sabrina 1]

48. What a coincidence for them too. The PNAC gang also stated that it would be difficult to get the

people to go along with their War plans, except 'in the event of a catastrophic event of the magnitude of Pearl Harbor'!

So many coincidences that worked so well in their favor. You would almost think that if there is a God, s/he is on their side!

There was simply no excuse for any Democrat to support that war. If WE knew they were lying and that they would use that authority for wrong doing, any elected official who did not, is not fit for public office imo.

I remember that day also, and shared your fear that there would be a war with that tragedy as the excuse.

And we didn't even go to the right country.

Did Hillary think Iraq was responsible for 9/11? I was relatively new to politics at the time, but a little googling was all it took to know that Iraq had nothing to with 9/11.

[McCamy Taylor]

6. I can top that. I wrote one of about a half dozen letters to the editor in July 2012 saying "No War

in Iraq" after Sy Hersh broke the story about how Bush and Co. planned to use 9-11 as an excuse to invade Iraq. Mine was in a major Texas newspaper. Most of the others were in the NYT. Meaning that I was against the war even before Obama was against the war. And I may well have been the first Texan against the war. Can I get a party nomination to something out of it?

[Fumesucker]

13. I wasn't intending for there to be a competition

Glad you can find some amusement in all this.

[MannyGoldstein]

19. So how do you feel about poiticians who voted for war?

Are they people who exhibit good judgement?

[sabrina 1]

67. I know how I feel about politicians who were fooled, or not, into supporting a war in the WRONG

COUNTRY to begin with. Did they really not know that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11?

If they were fooled by the Cheney gang, they are definitely not fit to be in positions of power. Imagine how easily fooled they would be if they had the power to decide something as serious as that?

And if they DID know the Cheney gang were lying about Iraq but went along with it anyhow, that makes them a neocon. And neocons are dangerous.

That was a historical decision they were asked to make. To fail at the most important decision a member of Congress will be asked to make, demonstrates that they are unfit for powerful positions in our government.

I felt that way a decade ago or more, and have not changed my mind.

WE knew! Even those of us who were fairly new to politics. And THEY didn't? Or did? I'm not sure which is worse that they feel for the lies of the worst administration in living memory, or they supported that illegal invasion.

[sendero]

101. I believe...

Last edited Sun Feb 22, 2015, 10:38 AM - Edit history (1)

... that if totally unconnected people such as myself could connect the dots and see that there was no case for an Iraq war, there is no credible way a congressperson could know any less.

I'm convinced that to the last congressperson, they all knew this was bullshit but for various reasons, politics being the most prevalent reason, voted for it.

It would have, in the context of the times, taken courage to go against the tide. And nobody would ever accuse the rank and file members of our elected government of having a surplus of courage.

[sabrina 1]

139. I totally agree with you. I do think some of them were actually on board with the whole

neocon/third way policies of the Cheney gang. But others were planning to run for the WH and made the huge error of thinking it would adversely affect them if they were to do the right thing.

The quickly learned how wrong a calculation that was when they decided to run and found themselves having to 'apologize' for 'getting it wrong'. Except for one, she has never apologized for that vote!

[raccoon]

173. This oughta become a famous quote:

And nobody would ever accuse the rank and file members of our elected government of having a surplus of courage.

[Maedhros]

134. ANYONE who was fooled into thinking invading Iraq was a good idea

has no place in politics at any level.

[Panich52]

8. Seeing near orgasmic expressions on FauxNews anchor during Shock&Awe led me to put lock on chnl so

I'd never again mistakenly watch it.

[kimbutgar]

11. The day of the invasion, I remember going into workers and there were protestors in the street

Last edited Sun Feb 22, 2015, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)

I was in tears coming into my work because I knew this was a bogus war. My boss and fellow co worker pooh poohed me saying this war would be short and I was an oversensitive woman. Boy were these two males wrong in so many ways.

[DawgHouse]

126. I cried too.

[MannyGoldstein]

12. Well said

I recall that time so clearly, it was staggering, stupid.

Watching "shock and awe" it seemed lost on the media that it wasn't Nintendo, those were humans being turned to spatter, smoke and fleshy chunks. People just like us, who by chance were born in the wrong place, in the crosshairs because of competition with daddy or the yen to run for President.

A depravity so deep.

[Fumesucker]

15. That's why the drones make me sick at heart too..

They make it too easy, too much like a videogame and too removed from the horror.

Some things should be hard and disgusting to do.

[MannyGoldstein]

17. One man burned alive on camera is the worst thing ever

A wedding party blown to smithereens and bleeding out into death is a sentence in story that gets a leaker put in prison.

[Fumesucker]

20. Mistakes were made

And besides, the families get a payout..

[sabrina 1]

52. Children burned to death with White Phosphorous! Military admits it, no problem.

Those videos we are seeing are pretty well produced. I wonder why our Intel Community cannot find out who is producing them?

I thought the NSA was spying on the world so that when there are 'threats' like ISIS, they would have the ability to collect THEIR data also.

I mean someone is putting them out there.

So why can't we find out WHO?

I remember one video being traced to a place in London a few years ago. So they CAN trace them. So why is there no interest in doing so?

[RufusTFirefly]

25. But Rand Paul opposes drones. Therefore, you are Rand Paul

QED

[Fumesucker]

27. Nothing that elevated I'm afraid..

My boss' boss' boss reports to to one of Rand's subassistants.

Carpe Lucre don't you know.

[RufusTFirefly]

30. I remember how moved I was by Sen. Robert Byrd's impassioned speech

Of course, that makes me a former Klansman.

[Fumesucker]

34. Former?

[RufusTFirefly]

35. I deny all accusations

Any further questions, please speak to my assistant.

[MannyGoldstein]

54. !

[RufusTFirefly]

92. You left off a Hungadunga! n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

104. Damn. The most important one, too. nt

[KoKo]

124. The Senator Byrd Debates on War in Iraq...DU'ers had Running Threads watching C-Span

DU'ers took part running threads of the debates for days where each of us took a turn commenting for those who couldn't watch. Yes, I know he was controversial in his vote for Alito and his early background....but, in this case he was Spot On and made a huge effort to try to stop the invasion along with Senator Kennedy. So for this I will always appreciate his efforts.

{Here is his best Video with transcript from both. It is a remarkably prescient speech opposing the Iraq war by Senator Byrd in March of 2003.):

(You Tube of Part 2)

Uploaded on Apr 8, 2008



AMERICA'S IMAGE IN THE WORLD

Script Part 1: Mr. BYRD. Madam President, I believe in this great and beautiful country. I have studied its roots and gloried in the wisdom of its magnificent Constitution and its inimitable history. I have marveled at the wisdom of its Founders and Framers. Generation after generation of Americans has understood the lofty ideals that underlie our great Republic. I have been inspired by the story of their sacrifice and their strength. But today I weep for my country.

I have watched the events of recent months with a heavy, heavy heart. No more is the image of American one of strong, yet benevolent peacekeeper. The image of America has changed. Around the globe, our friends mistrust us, our word is disputed, our intentions are questioned. Instead of reasoning with those with whom we disagree, we demand obedience or threaten recrimination. Instead of isolating Saddam Hussein, we seem to have succeeded in isolating ourselves. We proclaim a new doctrine of preemption which is understood by few but feared by many. We say that the United States has the right to turn its firepower on any corner of the globe which might be suspect in the war on terrorism. We assert that right without the sanction of any international body. As a result, the world has become a much more dangerous place. We flaunt our superpower status with arrogance. We treat U.N. Security Council members like ingrates who offend our princely dignity by lifting their heads from the carpet. Valuable alliances are split. After war has ended, the United States will have to rebuild much more than the country of Iraq. We will have to rebuild America's image around the globe.

The case this administration tries to make to justify its fixation with war is tainted by charges of falsified documents and circumstantial evidence. We cannot convince the world of the necessity of this war for one simple reason: This is not a war of necessity, but a war of choice. There is no credible information to connect Saddam Hussein to 9/11, at least up to this point. The twin towers fell because a world-wide terrorist group, al Qaida, with cells in over 60 nations, struck at our wealth and our influence by turning our own planes into missiles, one of which would likely have slammed into the dome of this beautiful Capitol except for the brave sacrifice of some of the passengers who were on board that plane. The brutality seen on September 11th and in other terrorist attacks we have witnessed around the globe are the violent and desperate efforts by extremists to stop the daily encroachment of Western values upon their cultures. That is what we fight. It is a force not confined to territorial borders. It is a shadowy entity with many faces, many names, and many addresses.

But, this administration has directed all of the anger, fear, and grief which emerged from the ashes of the Twin Towers and the twisted metal of the Pentagon towards a tangible villain, one we can see and hate and attack. And villain he is. But he is the wrong villain. And this is the wrong war . If we attack Saddam Hussein, we will probably drive him from power. But the zeal of our friends to assist our global war on terrorism may have already taken flight. The general unease surrounding this war is not just due to ``orange alert.'' There is a pervasive sense of rush and risk and too many questions unanswered...

-------------------

Senator Byrd's Speech Opposing Iraq War 3/19/03 Part 2
Uploaded on Apr 9, 2008

The second part of Senator Byrd's riveting speech opposing the Iraq War in 2003:

Part 2 Script:
How long will we be in Iraq? What will be the cost? What is the ultimate mission? How great is the danger at home? A pall has fallen over the Senate Chamber. We avoid our solemn duty to debate the one topic on the minds of all Americans, even while scores of thousands of our sons and daughters faithfully do their duty in Iraq. What is happening to this country--my country, your country, our country? When did we become a nation which ignores and berates our friends and calls them irrelevant?

When did we decide to risk undermining international order by adopting a radical and doctrinaire approach to using our awesome military might? How can we abandon diplomatic efforts when the turmoil in the world cries out for diplomacy? Why can this President not seem to see that America's true power lies not in its will to intimidate, but in its ability to inspire? War appears inevitable . But I continue to hope that the cloud will lift. Perhaps Saddam will yet turn tail and run. Perhaps reason will somehow still prevail. I along with millions, scores of millions of Americans will pray for the safety of our troops, for the innocent civilians--women, children, babies, old and young, crippled, deformed, sick--in Iraq, and for the security of our homeland. May God continue to bless the United States of America in the troubled days ahead, and may we somehow recapture the vision which for the present eludes us. Madam President, I yield the floor and suggest the absence of a quorum.

[RufusTFirefly]

125. Thanks for posting, KoKo. In truth, I was thinking even earlier than that

Back in October 2002

We are committing the blood and the treasure of the American people to do what the United Nations won't do. I say, do what the president has done thus far. Put it in the lap of the United Nations and expect them to give us an answer. Then come back to the people's representatives and let them make a determination as to whether or not at that point we should strike.

(However), if we are going to make it a blank check, let's make it a blank check right upfront, without all of these flowery fig leaves of "whereas" clauses, and simply say that the president has this power. Give it to him and we will put up a sign on the top of this Capitol: "Out of business." "Gone home." "Gone fishing."

We are giving to the president of the United States a blank check, and Congress cannot do that. Congress should not do that. Where is the termination? Where is the deadline? Where is the sunset language that says after this happens this resolution shall no longer exist? There is nothing. This goes on to the next president of the United States.

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/oct/09/opinion/oe-byrd9/2

[KoKo]

127. Yes, agree, the debates with Kennedy on Senate Floor started earlier...

I think this was his last speech when he knew how the vote was going to, sadly, come down.

One day I'll search for the Kennedy/Byrd debates and listen to them all. I think we may need to watch them over again the way things seem to be headed these days with endless wars and new confontations with Russia.

[sabrina 1]

132. That was one of the best speeches delivered by anyone that day. I didn't really know much about him

at that time, but remember standing up and applauding hoping he represented all Dems. I believe Hillary came after him and her speech was awful. I was shocked, because up to that point, I really admired her.

Thanks for posting that. He continued to speak out against the Cheney/Bush regime fearlessly, unlike most others, slamming them whenever he got the chance.

He was fiercely attacked by the Far Right for doing so, but didn't seem to care.

At the moment in time when courage was needed, he displayed that courage. Sadly, not everyone did so.

And we are where we are ...

[sabrina 1]

140. Yes, the Right trashed him, but he expected that and at a critical moment in our history, he

stood up against the tide and did the right thing. I was also very moved by his wonderful, impassioned speech that night and his consistent attacks on the Cheney/Bush war criminals throughout the rest of his life.

[RufusTFirefly]

141. He got burned by the Gulf of Tonkin resolution...

... and was determined not to make the same mistake.

[Agschmid]

29. Yup.

[Mira]

50. watching "shock and awe"

happened in the same physical spot in my house as watching the challenger explosion. My screams were equally loud.
I lost an entire professional web-community over my protestations about it that day.
I never went back to them,I just could not.

[Fumesucker]

55. Yes, there were a huge number of bridges burned that day and the following ones

I think I recall you live in the South, the jingoism was off the scale down here, dripping from the trees like Spanish Moss.

[Rex]

14. If only ONE adult would have said no you cannot be a bully.

Nobody stood up to the bully and he won.

[Fumesucker]

16. None of the Very Serious People are actual adults, they are grown up children

And the toy soldiers they play with are all too real.

[Rex]

39. Well it is silly for us to think that we would know all this and they would not.

Last edited Sun Feb 22, 2015, 04:28 AM - Edit history (1)

I hear so many times here how hard they work etc.. Yet you and I and millions had our own lives to carry on in, knowing all the crap that the M$M and the BFEE were spewing on a daily basis. So to pretend that those 'in the know' could not grasp or understand what us simple peons knew is pathetic beyond words.

And they wonder why kids have no respect for adults. Why would they? Not the generations growing up under Dubya.

[JI7]

18. that's why the no difference between Gore and Bush was BS

[Fumesucker]

22. Are you sure you want to take that tack on this thread?

[JI7]

23. you think Gore was going to do what Bush did in Iraq ? Clinton didn't

[Fumesucker]

24. Clinton voted for it

[JI7]

26. bush was going to go into iraq even without the IWR

[Fumesucker]

31. Well of course, that makes it OK then..

[JI7]

33. it means people blame Bush for the mess in Iraq

[Fumesucker]

36. Bzzzttt.. You just tried to blame Nader voters

[JI7]

38. no, i said it was BS to say there was no difference between Bush and Gore

[Fumesucker]

44. That was your takeway on the horror

Those people over there voted for the wrong person.

Well, the person we are told is the inevitable Democratic nominee for 2016 voted for the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong leaders.

Would you want Nader voters running the country?

[JI7]

46. i wouldn't want anyone who thinks there is no difference between Bush and Gore to run the country

considering how bush fucked things up.

[Fumesucker]

49. However actually helping Bush to fuck things up is no big deal..

I asked you if you wanted to take this tack.

[JI7]

57. he was helped when he got into office, i knew he was going to fuck things up

i wasn't surprised at all over what a disaster he was.

[Fumesucker]

61. It's clear where you want to put the blame

Lieberman lost far more voters for Gore than Nader took, without that pious warmongering sadistic schmuck on the ballot Gore would have won by a big enough margin that the SCOTUS couldn't have thrown it.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/02/12/the-lorax

Lieberman likes expressions of American power. A few years ago, I was in a movie theatre in Washington when I noticed Lieberman and his wife, Hadassah, a few seats down. The film was “Behind Enemy Lines,” in which Owen Wilson plays a U.S. pilot shot down in Bosnia. Whenever the American military scored an onscreen hit, Lieberman pumped his fist and said, “Yeah!” and “All right!”

[JI7]

62. i blame Bush for Iraq and so do most people

[Fumesucker]

64. It's clear to everyone reading the thread where your mind went first

And it wasn't to Bush.

FWIW, I appreciate you helping keep the thread kicked.

[JI7]

70. well, considering what a disaster Bush was and i knew he would be , it's not easy to forget

especially when people still try to push the lie.

[Fumesucker]

74. What lie am I pushing?

[JI7]

88. i'm referring to those who say there is no difference

if you aren't saying that i am not talking about you .

[Fumesucker]

89. I agree, saying there is no difference between those who voted for war and against is a lie..

[JI7]

90. lol

[sabrina 1]

138. Why didn't Hillary know what you knew, that Bush was going to 'fuck things up'?

Bush could not have done what he did and continued to fund it without the enablers who helped him do it.

No one alone, can 'fuck things up' in this country. They need help to cause so much damage.

And why have none of the war criminals and liars been prosecuted? That too helps them to keep 'fucking things up'.

[joshcryer]

91. No, it just means the vote was meaningless.

Bush was going to invade with or without a vote. A lot of other Democrats voted for it, too, including, you know, John Kerry.

[PassingFair]

121. Most sitting Democrats had the courage to vote against it.

No excuse for the asshats whose acquiescence signaled approval.

Never.

That includes John "reporting for duty" Kerry and Clinton.

[Rex]

40. Not if someone would have stood up to him. All it took was someone calling the BFEE

on all the BS from years and years. Nobody listen to the people when the protested in the millions. Guess we will never know, we let the bully win.

[rhett o rick]

41. Hard to tell. When Bush asked for their integrity the DLC'ers couldn't bow low enough

and fast enough. They work for the same master. And now one wants to be president.

[davidn3600]

45. Eh...who knows...

In the late 90s, it was the Democrats beating the war drums concerning Iraq.

There was a lot of political push for that war in both parties.

[McKim]

28. The Night of Shock and Awe

I will never forget the night of Shock and Awe and the obscene spectacle of sinister fireworks that was played over and over again on TV.
We were sick at heart and crying in our beds that night. The moral world had somehow come apart forever. The nice mask was off of our rulersand we knew that something important had come to an end. After 13 years in the Peace Movement we are still aghast at how far this has all come. What we have now is Evil with no end in sight. We are sad beyond words at this household. If only I had been able to talk my family into immigrating!

[Fumesucker]

42. Sometimes I can go as much as a week without really thinking about it

But then it hits me and I feel a chill up my spine, usually after I read something here on DU.

This time it was: "DON'T BE FOOLED!!".

Thank you, Nance, I won't be fooled again.

[sabrina 1]

58. I couldn't watch it. But I do remember that CNN was there and showed video at about 4.00 AM the

following day. They were filming a hospital and it was HORRIFIC. Children, dead or so badly injured they may as well have been, the doctors were trying their best to help the injured, but they didn't have enough medicine and some of them were trying to control the crowds who were desperate to get help.

There was one little boy who I will never forget, his name was ALI. His pregnant mom, dad and his siblings had all been blown to bits in their apartment. SHOCK AND AWE!

He survived, but had lost his arms and his stomach was ripped apart airc. He was in intense pain, they had bandaged him but did not have medicine for the pain.

He was crying for his mom. He had only one relative left, his aunt, who was there.

The coverage showed what looked like scenes from HELL and I admit, I hated those who were responsible, all of them.

That was the last time the MSM covered the war. No doubt they got the call from the WH.

I always wanted to know what happened to ALI. I read that because of that coverage, he was able to leave Iraq for treatment in another country.

Today he is a man, with no arms, and his legs were badly injured also, and no family.

Just ONE of the tens of thousands of horror stories from Shock And Awe's first 'glorious night'.

[Fumesucker]

79. I remember that kid

One of the most heartwrenching things I've ever seen.

[Fred Sanders]

100. Followed by an immediate media blackout..no casualities were to be shown...just patriotic bombs dropping.

If not for the social media AND Obama........ it is just maddening to know it could happen all over again.

[raccoon]

94. Ali Ismail Abbas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Ismail_Abbas

To me he is the face of that disgusting, immoral, illegal invasion.

[sabrina 1]

129. Thank you. He was a totally innocent child and one of the first victims of that massive crime.

There was a media blackout after that first night so we did not see the hundreds of thousands of other victims.

And you can see why, just those few hours of coverage of what 'Shock and Awe' really meant, caused so much horror, they knew they had to block any more coverage.

Until we get a free press again in this country, nothing is going to change, imo.

Bad as Ali's situation was, to lose his entire family and his own horrific injuries, it's hard to contemplate, but he was one of the 'lucky' victims of that awful invasion.

And he would not have received the help he did, if CNN had not done its job for a few truthful hours before the total blackout of coverage.

[raccoon]

154. Yes, news relating to the US military actions is very carefully

controlled these days.

Thanks for reminding us.

[sabrina 1]

165. Yes, it is. Which is why people go eslewhere to get news. And that is why they are trying to control

the internet now.

[Ramses]

37. I can't forget either

Lives flushed down the war drain of hell. I wont vote for someone who supported it. Period.

[rhett o rick]

43. The night of the vote I remember watching Sen Daschle making a great speech

about how foolish it was to invade Iraq. He gave a dozen reasons not to invade and got my hopes up. I was thinking that even if the Democrats couldn't stop the insanity, at least they could go on record on the side of decency. But it seems Daschle was just blowing smoke. He voted to give Bush carte blanche to kill men, women and children in Iraq.

[sabrina 1]

47. I remember how I felt that night also. I am sure I cried, especially when I saw Democrats

joining the Republicans who had been attacking them relentlessly for years, to give that weasel and his neocon warmongers the power to start a war in the WRONG COUNTRY!!!!

What were they THINKING?

I join you in refusing to elect anyone who, when they were asked to make one of the most important decisions an elected official will ever have to make, they FAILED.

I want someone leading this country who got it RIGHT on that fateful day.

[JEB]

51. I remember it clearly in sickening detail as does

the rest of the world.

[Octoberfurst]

53. It sickened me too.

I protested before the Iraq war began. I was in DC with a couple hundred thousand people demanding that we not go to war. We went anyway thanks to our servile media who never questioned anything and in many instances were cheerleaders for the war. They acted like this was a game. And when I saw "shock and awe" I didn't cheer like many of the warmongers did. I felt shame and anger. I knew innocent people were dying over a lie. How many innocent Iraqi's died? Was it 100,000? Was it 500,000? A million? No was knows because nobody in the US government cared. All they cared about was the fucking oil. If there was justice in this world Bush, Cheney and the rest would all be tried as war criminals.

[raccoon]

95. Had there been a draft, they wouldn't have been cheering.

And when I saw "shock and awe" I didn't cheer like many of the warmongers did.

I think that is disgusting too. As long as they don't have skin in the game, so many Americans acted--and still do-- like it was just some video game, movie, or football game.

[sadoldgirl]

59. I remember that this "shock and awe"

on TV struck me like 9/11. In other words, this was just a movie,
not reality. Even though I had marched against this war and had
realized that nobody listened anymore to the people on the street,
I just could not believe that it was happening. Sorry, it took me a few days
to start cursing and crying. By the way, in my part of the country there were
very few people protesting.

It is still hard to imagine that because of all that we have entered into
a perpetual war. The machine keeps grinding on no matter who is in
the WH. I am not sure anymore who or what is possibly able to
change it.

American exceptionality at work.:sarc:

[raccoon]

96. In my area, red as a baboon's arse, just a handful were at the

anti-war rallies before the buildup to the illegal invasion.

Makes me want to throw up, the way these assholes cheer on the war. Most of them, if their relatives had to go fight over there, they would be singing a very different tune.

[BrotherIvan]

60. I read this thread with a heavy heart

But it does feel better to know that not everyone was fooled. A shared mourning. And I will not listen to anyone who tries to spread the lying lies that we need to go again.

[sabrina 1]

83. Yes, it does feel good to know that and to know that not everyone who KNEW has forgotten or

developed amnesia about it.

[BrotherIvan]

86. Or a "So What?" attitude

To me, war is a big fucking deal. And all of us have no idea what it is like to live in a war zone. How could we be so flippant about creating a hell on earth, even if it is far away. I don't get it.

Honestly, if Clinton would have come out and said, "I did the wrong thing." I might have gone with it. But now she is quadrupling down and there's just no way.

[sabrina 1]

63. Thank you for this thread. People have short memories, either that or they never really did care

about the actual people who were the victims of the war criminals and their enablers.

[Fumesucker]

65. Thank Nance Greggs for it

It was her "DON'T BE FOOLED!!11" thread that got me thinking about this.

[sabrina 1]

68. I didn't read it. Kind of guessed what it was. Maybe I should, it might be interesting to know

if the people who were so opposed to Bush's war back then actually were, or if it was all just for political reasons.

[Fumesucker]

72. I wouldn't bother, it's pure snark, trying to imitate Manny from a position of weakness

Doesn't have anything to do with the war but the title sent me off into a reverie thinking about who was fooling whom.

[sabrina 1]

75. Lol, thanks, won't waste the time then. NO ONE can imitate Manny. He is unique!

[pnwmom]

66. Ted Kennedy has spoken about why Congress was deceived.

He had access to more information than most Senators because of his position on the Armed Services Committee. Other members of Congress relied on the administration not to be lying to them -- and that was a mistake.

On the other hand, if the October IWR -- which was supposed to prevent the US from going to war unless WMD's were discovered -- had been defeated, the Rethugs who came into power in January would have promptly given Bush a blank check. The war was inevitable whether or not any Dems voted for the resolution.

(Hillary Clinton was not appointed to the Armed Services Committee until January 2003 -- months after she joined the majority of the Senate in approving the IWR.)


http://www.cfr.org/iraq/foreign-policy-address-edward-m-kennedy/p6834

QUESTIONER: My name is . I work for the State Department's Washington File. In the run-up to the war, Robert Byrd was almost the only voice in Congress making a case against the war. Where were the other members of Congress at that time?

KENNEDY: The question is Robert Byrd spoke out brilliantly against the war; where were the others? They weren't behind Robert Byrd where they should've been. I was glad to be there with Robert Byrd on that issue, but the— clearly, we shouldn't have been there. I reached that— my decision— as a member of the Armed Services Committee listening to members of the military testify and predicting exactly what was going to come. You listen to General Hoar , the principal former leaders both of the Marines and the military, men and women who had experience and had been over in that region of the world, absolutely predicted exactly what was going to happen. And it was so powerful, clear, and convincing, that the decision was an easy one for me.

Quite frankly, our colleagues, some of those that were on the Armed Services Committee, reached the similar conclusion. Senator Byrd is on that Armed Services Committee. But it was the— we— I think what they would say is they didn't have the kind of balanced information that many of the rest of us had. There's no question, as I mentioned in the talk, that the presentation that was made to the members of the United States Senate misrepresented and distorted the intelligence information. And we have to have, as any democracy has to have, confidence in both what the president is going to tell you and what the president's representatives are going to tell you. And when they had the kind of series of misrepresentations that I've reviewed, this is an indictment of this administration in its own words.

[Fumesucker]

69. Vast Right Wing Conspiracy

Evidently just political rhetoric designed to gain sympathy, not a statement of fact.

How about you, were you fooled?

Did you think Saddam was responsible for 9/11?

[pnwmom]

73. I didn't think Saddam was responsible for 9/11, but that wasn't the issue.

No, I wasn't one of the brilliant people who immediately knew that Colin Powell was lying about everything. I was one of the ones he had fooled, with his moderate, non-partisan image.

But I still would have voted against the war -- I think. The thing is, I don't know what it would have been like to be a member of the Senate (not a member of the Armed Services Committee like Kennedy), hearing what they heard about mushroom clouds and feeling the weight of the world on their shoulders.

[Fumesucker]

78. Colin Powell once had a doctrine named after him

It might as well have been buried with Nineveh and Tyre..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_Doctrine

The Powell Doctrine states that a list of questions all have to be answered affirmatively before military action is taken by the United States:

Is a vital national security interest threatened?
Do we have a clear attainable objective?
Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
Is the action supported by the American people?
Do we have genuine broad international support?[2]

[pnwmom]

81. He's going to have to live with those lies for the rest of his life.

I wonder how he justified that to himself?

And then he went on to endorse Obama, twice. But that doesn't make amends for what he did. He'll never be able to.

[Fumesucker]

84. I forget the details but Powell was involved in My Lai

And not in a good way.

[PassingFair]

123. And yet....21 Democratic Senators, 1 Independent and 1 Republican DID have the courage to vote no.

Only VICHY dems caved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution


58% of Democratic senators (29 of 50) voted for the resolution. Those voting for the resolution are:

Sens. Lincoln (D-AR), Feinstein (D-CA), Dodd (D-CT), Lieberman (D-CT), Biden (D-DE), Carper (D-DE), Nelson (D-FL), Cleland (D-GA), Miller (D-GA), Bayh (D-IN), Harkin (D-IA), Breaux (D-LA), Mary Landrieu (D-LA), Kerry (D-MA), Carnahan (D-MO), Baucus (D-MT), Nelson (D-NE), Reid (D-NV), Torricelli (D-NJ), Clinton (D-NY), Schumer (D-NY), Edwards (D-NC), Dorgan (D-ND), Hollings (D-SC), Daschle (D-SD), Johnson (D-SD), Cantwell (D-WA), Rockefeller (D-WV), and Kohl (D-WI).

42% of Democratic senators (21 of 50) voted against the resolution. Those voting against the resolution are:

Sens. Boxer (D-CA), Graham (D-FL), Akaka (D-HI), Inouye (D-HI), Durbin (D-IL), Mikulski (D-MD), Sarbanes (D-MD), Kennedy (D-MA), Stabenow (D-MI), Levin (D-MI), Dayton (D-MN), Wellstone (D-MN), Corzine (D-NJ), Bingaman (D-NM), Conrad (D-ND), Wyden (D-OR), Reed (D-RI), Leahy (D-VT), Murray (D-WA), Byrd (D-WV), and Feingold (D-WI).

1 (2%) of 49 Republican senators voted against the resolution: Sen. Chafee (R-RI).
The only Independent senator voted against the resolution: Sen. Jeffords (I-VT)

[sabrina 1]

131. A majority of Democrats voted against it, so I think they knew what was going on, in fact in some

excellent speeches before the vote, it was clear that they knew, and that makes it all the more reprehensible for any Democrat who was, either so blind they failed to detect the lies, making them unfit for any position of leadership, or they were in support of Cheney/Bush's policies, also making them unfit to govern.

In any job you are expected to be responsible, if you make a decision that costs the business money, lives especially, or behave in any irresponsible way, you will be fired, unfit to have a position where your judgement is likely to have disastrous results.

Those who were in a position to make one of the most important decisions of their careers and made the wrong decision that day, demonstrated their lack of judgement for any important position in our government.

We need leaders who get these decisions RIGHT the FIRST time.

It's too big a risk to the lives of those affected by these decisions to give them a second chance.

[sadoldgirl]

71. Sorry, but that is no excuse

at all for those who voted for it. On the contrary
they - I mean the Democrats mostly -, they should have listened to those
who knew better, and especially to those who had suffered through wars.

War is a life and death situation, not like naming a postal office.

[pnwmom]

76. As a member of the Armed Services Committee, Kennedy was barred from sharing

secret information he learned there with other members of Congress or anyone else.

Hillary wasn't the only high profile Dem who was deceived by Powell and voted for the resolution. Joe Biden, John Kerry, and Harry Reid all voted yes, among others.

[Bluenorthwest]

106. Democratic votes in the Senate...

58% of Democratic senators (29 of 50) voted for the resolution. Those voting for the resolution are:

Sens. Lincoln (D-AR), Feinstein (D-CA), Dodd (D-CT), Lieberman (D-CT), Biden (D-DE), Carper (D-DE), Nelson (D-FL), Cleland (D-GA), Miller (D-GA), Bayh (D-IN), Harkin (D-IA), Breaux (D-LA), Mary Landrieu (D-LA), Kerry (D-MA), Carnahan (D-MO), Baucus (D-MT), Nelson (D-NE), Reid (D-NV), Torricelli (D-NJ), Clinton (D-NY), Schumer (D-NY), Edwards (D-NC), Dorgan (D-ND), Hollings (D-SC), Daschle (D-SD), Johnson (D-SD), Cantwell (D-WA), Rockefeller (D-WV), and Kohl (D-WI).

42% of Democratic senators (21 of 50) voted against the resolution. Those voting against the resolution are:

Sens. Boxer (D-CA), Graham (D-FL), Akaka (D-HI), Inouye (D-HI), Durbin (D-IL), Mikulski (D-MD), Sarbanes (D-MD), Kennedy (D-MA), Stabenow (D-MI), Levin (D-MI), Dayton (D-MN), Wellstone (D-MN), Corzine (D-NJ), Bingaman (D-NM), Conrad (D-ND), Wyden (D-OR), Reed (D-RI), Leahy (D-VT), Murray (D-WA), Byrd (D-WV), and Feingold (D-WI).

1 (2%) of 49 Republican senators voted against the resolution: Sen. Chafee (R-RI).
The only Independent senator voted against the resolution: Sen. Jeffords (I-VT)

[pnwmom]

133. Thanks for the list. I'd forgotten that more D's voted for it than against. n/t

[magical thyme]

99. meh. I was not involved at politics at all at the time. I was fighting for survival.

My career had crashed and I was unemployed from 2/02 until 9/05.

I was in the midst of a 3 year bout of severe insomnia brought on by being tormented 24x7 by a neighbor in adjacent condo: a registered sex offender and his gang of thugs.

And I have an autographed copy of Colin Powell's autobiography on my bookshelves. I was steeped in belief in him; had he run for president before all this I would have voted Republican for the first and only time in my life.

Yet I watched his testimony and I knew he was lying. I immediately knew he was lying.

[awoke_in_2003]

77. I know how you feel

I came here during the build up to war, hence my name.

[dissentient]

82. Yep, it was pretty disgusting. And there is no excuse for it.

Another thing, I would bet that most people who were for the war back then would never admit it today. It's easy to say you were against it now, and take the easy way out. Otherwise, you would be admitting you got fooled by Bush and the gang, which is not something anyone with half a brain would want to admit.

I noticed there are some duers who always seem to be pushing for military action or intervention as a solution in the middle east or elsewhere, chances are, they probably supported the Iraq invasion too. Would they admit it? No way, in my opinion. They would either just stay silent or be dishonest and say they were against it.


Just something that has crossed my mind about this sorry business lately.

[Fumesucker]

85. Success has a thousand fathers..

Failure is an orphan.

[dissentient]

87. Exactly. Progressives like you and me and others who always seem to consistently come down on the

liberal side of things, it's easy to see the truth.

But when I see other duers who seem to always be pushing for military intervention in places like Libya, Syria, Ukraine, and getting involved militarily against ISIS, well, I would bet they liked the sound of the Iraq invasion too.

[davidpdx]

97. I remember where I was the night that the war in Iraq began

I was living in Portland at the time and I was opposed to it from the beginning. It was after I moved to Korea in 2004 that I really to see stuff that disturbed me. There were protests taking place all over Korea because of the war in Iraq. In the city I lived in, one group had a huge display of pictures from Abu Ghraib Prison. As an American overseas I was disgusted by two things: 1) the fact that our country had done something to make us hated around the world and 2) that most people assumed that all Americans supported the war in Iraq.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

170. I was in Portland, too, and I remember the huge protests

including one group that blocked Burnside just west of the bridge and another that took bicycles on I-405.

But I was proud of Oregon's Congressional delegation, because all the Dems voted against the IWR.

[woo me with science]

98. I wish this thread could be pinned to the top of the board.

Thank you, Fumesucker.

We can't allow any of the ghouls who permitted this to be elected again, ever.

[carolinayellowdog]

142. The Senate Dems were just as culpable as the Senate Republicans

Which makes me ashamed of ever voting for Edwards in the 2004 primary, and made me vote for Obama in the primary to defeat Hillary in 2008. But the House Democrats were far more honorable in opposition to an inevitable disaster.

[rgbecker]

102. Which is more frightening?

The pictures of ISIS gangs to Americans or these pictures of Wacko Americans invading Iraq to those in the middle east?

[840high]

158. Both.

[Broward]

105. Why is it so hard for many Hillary backers to just say that she was spectacularly wrong

to vote yes on the IWR rather than make sorry excuses?

[Fumesucker]

107. The inevitable Democratic nominee cannot fail, she can only be failed

It's the Tinkerbell syndrome, clap loud enough and all the bad things never happened.

[Bluenorthwest]

108. Politically, those who voted against it were marginalized while those who voted Yes rose in the

Democratic Party, became VP, Secs of State and of Defense and Presidential candidates while the No voters were universally not appointed to higher office by the Obama administration. If voting yes was spectacularly and definitively wrong Biden should not be the VP, Kerry should not be Sec of State nor our 04 Nominee which he was, along with Edwards another yes voter.
If an error is damning to one who makes it, but others who make the same error are promoted and lauded, something is very wrong. The ethics seem situational, elastic, adaptable for any agenda.
I think it was a terrible vote, but the rest of this Party has already put 3 different people who voted for it up for President or VP and 2 who voted for it have been Sec of State and Obama even appointed Republicans who voted for it to be Sec of Defense. DU was full of people claiming Hagel was 'against the war' but he voted for it. Republican, rewarded for the same error.
That bridge got crossed many times, with each approval, reelection and appointment to high office of officials who voted for IWR. When Obama promotes Republican Yes voters, that bridge was blown the fuck up.
So the pretense that Hillary stands somehow alone as a Yes voter is a false one. Biden is a yes voter, already approved for the highest office.
The double standard thing really bothers me. This Party already shoved Kerry and Edwards at me post IWR. Already shoved Biden at me, already rewarded Republican Yes voters with great powers. I was one of a handful on DU that opposed Hagel as Sec of Defense, most here said he was a 'peacemaker' and blah, blah, blah. Voted for the IWR.

[Fumesucker]

111. To be entirely fair

I don't think the party wanted Edwards getting anywhere near the nomination, the rest of what you say I agree with, you have a better command of the details than I do, my memory is getting hit or miss these days.

[Autumn]

113. Exactly true. I don't hold the IWR against the ones who voted for it, I won't fault the

people who do though. I can't do it anymore, I can't cross that bridge. My Nephew marched into Baghdad, served three tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. Came home, put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger. That little boy of ours was dead the moment he stepped foot in Iraq, it just took him a while to die.

No I'm not crossing that bridge again. I have overlooked too much. I have tears in my eyes as I re read your post. I can't figure out what the fuck I am voting for anymore.

[Dems to Win]

114. My condolences to you and your family.

So sad.

[Autumn]

119. Thank you

To see this farce continue, to see the same tactics used over and over again opens up ones eyes to the corruption that controls our government. None of this that has been or is being done is for the American people. We see no benefit from it.

[Fumesucker]

117. I'm sorry...

I know this brings up bad memories for many of us.

My sympathies and condolences to you and your loved ones..

[Autumn]

118. Thank you, and thank you for your OP. I wish I could rec it about a million times.

I'm not sure how we get out of this. No matter who we vote for it seems to continue, like a horrible nightmare.

[sabrina 1]

164. I am so sorry!

[nashville_brook]

110. +1

[GGJohn]

109. I remember thinking that I was so close to retirement from the Army

and now I'm getting deployed to another combat theater again and how many are going to die this time.

[L0oniX]

115. K & R

[jwirr]

116. The day we started bombing I was visiting one daughter - both of us we anti-war and said so. Then

I went to the other daughter's home. She was silent but her husband (a Vet) and her son were excited that we were doing something. I am very proud of what I told them. To this day I hold it over their heads. I was right.

To be fair the two guys I am talking about are the kind who watch sports and nature shows on TV and ignore the news. They knew about 9/11 but very little else. And that is how we have gotten ourselves into every war since Korea. Are we doing the same now? At least we are not doing this alone this time.

[Fumesucker]

147. Holding it over their heads doesn't do any good, you were right for the wrong reasons

It's far easier to forgive someone for being wrong than for being right.

[jwirr]

148. Who said there was no forgiveness. In fact they were not to blame so they did not need forgiveness.

What they do need to do is to remember.

[Fumesucker]

149. No, I mean they won't forgive you for being right..

I've been through all that, I live in the deep South and *everybody* was pro war. Until all of a sudden the flags and support the troops stickers were gone in the space of maybe a couple of months.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been told that I was right for the wrong reasons but it's at least in the dozens.

[jwirr]

150. Oh, I see what you mean. We just do not talk about it much. That helps.

[vanlassie]

120. Only mentioning this here because posters

remember that time... I search in vain for a clip of video or a transcript, where the Treasury Secretary John Snow was asked the potential financial cost of the impending war, and he arrogantly replied "we can easily afford it" (paraphrasing). I was nauseous at his smugness. I wish I could find it.

[Scuba]

122. Yep. I knew the war was a mistake based on lies. I can't believe that US Senators didn't know that.

[pnwmom]

135. They knew it by March, when the invasion began despite not finding any WMD's.

That's when Colin Powell was proven to have lied.

The IWR that had been passed in the previous autumn said Bush couldn't invade UNLESS WMD's had been found. However, in the interim the Rethugs had gotten control of Congress, and there was nothing Dems could do.

[Scuba]

137. "... there was nothing Dems could do."

That should be the Party motto.

[Fumesucker]

151. That's pretty good, maybe even better than this one..

[mehrrh]

136. shared emotions

I had very similar feelings i early 2003 -- until then I was still hopeful that clearer heads would prevail, but I was wrong. The neocons, the hotheads, the warmongers, the war profiteers and the complicit media all saw to it that any voice of opposition to this insane action was silenced.

[Martin Eden]

144. When Shock & Awe was launched, I wept.

I was bitter, I was ashamed for my country, and I felt utterly betrayed and abandoned by every Democrat (slightly fewer than half) who voted to give the green light to GW Bush to commit this war crime. Four days before the bombs fell I has traveled from my home in the Chicago suburbs to Washington DC to join 100,000 others to protest the imminent attack.

I was especially appalled when Democratic leaders like John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and Joe Biden failed to provide the kind of strong, principled leadership our country so desperately needed at that time. I cannot in good conscience support any of them in a Democratic primary. If they were fooled by the lies they are unqualified to be US Senator, let alone POTUS. But I don't think they were fooled, which makes their vote even more inexcusable.

[quadrature]

145. worse. 2011. Libya. the lies were not as good ...nt

[blkmusclmachine]

146. "Shock & Awe." W justed wanted to get his war on. Any war. So 9/11 warnings were intentionally

ignored. W wasn't dumb. Just evil. All my opinion.

[Dems to Win]

155. Not for a single moment did the Iraq War make a lick of sense.

Not for an instant did it make any sense that secular Baathist Saddam Hussein, oppressor of all things Islamist such as the Muslim Brotherhood, had anything to do with 9/11 and Al Quaeda.

Not for an instant did it make a lick of sense that Iraq, which was being bombed weekly/monthly to enforce no fly zones and was under crushing sanctions that killed an estimated half million children, had a functioning program developing weapons of mass destruction. Every single Curveball story from Judith Miller and the NYT was a laughable, ridiculous joke to anyone who'd been reading the news for the past decade. Anyone listening to Amy Goodman knew the yellow cake/Niger story was a pack of lies from day one.

I was so very angry and disgusted when the bombs started falling. This was wrong, wrong, wrong. Millions of people marching in the streets worldwide had not been able to prevent this utter horror.

It's inconceivable to me that the current Democratic Party conventional wisdom is that our best chance of winning the presidency next time is to put up a candidate who voted to authorize this travesty. Feels like I'm living in Alice's Wonderland.

[Fumesucker]

157. I have more respect for Hillary Clinton's intelligence than to believe she was fooled

That really leaves only one explanation and it is a truly ugly one.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

171. The pols who were inside the Washington bubble were told that the American people

were 100% behind the invasion and would punish at the polls anyone who voted against it. So Hillary, Kerry, and other Dem Senators who were up for re-election voted for it, all except Paul Wellstone, and we know what happened to him.

One of the Minnesota DUers, dflprincess, had occasion to talk to Sheila Wellstone shortly after the vote was taken and heard about what the Senators were told. It is infuriating that almost all of them 1) valued their careers over their morals, and 2) were so out of touch that they didn't notice the massive anti-war demonstrations going on among their own constituents.

[yellowwoodII]

156. Spectacular Video

Same feelings here. I copied off that list of Senators and Representatives who voted for it and vowed to never vote for any of them. Unless the Republican candidate is a Jeb Bush.

[Mr.Bill]

159. The thing that sickens me the most

is when I see W doing a photo op with veterans who have amputations and other horrific injuries, like he is some great humanitarian. If I was the veteran, I would spit in his face.

[Curmudgeoness]

160. That video reminds me how long I have been fighting against war.

I was feeling the same thing that you were when they gave the ok to Shrub. And I feel the same way about the ones who gave that ok. It is hard to forget.

[truedelphi]

161. I was so sad at that time, and remaining

sad ever since.

Only thing that cheered me was the thought of how many many people in the USA and across the world opposed the war.

I just turned the Academy Awards off, due to all the footage of "The Sniper" that the awards show is carrying this year .

We have had our Nuremberg rally moments, and unlike what the Germans had, which lasted the summer of 1936, ours has gone on for more than a decade.

USA! USA!

[cantbeserious]

162. We Are All Pawns Of The Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks That Own And Control The Politicians

eom

[geomon666]

167. I watched that horror unfold right here on DU.

I remember being really pissed off. Pissed that we were going to war. Pissed that we were lied to. Pissed that there wasn't a damn thing we could do about it because our "representatives" in Congress sold us out.

I'm still really fucking pissed about it too but it's more tempered these days. It's a topic that I can avoid where as back then with the whole shock and awe thing and mushroom clouds and WMD's and all that bullshit about 9/11, you couldn't avoid. It was fucking everywhere. I still vividly remember my local rock station playing My Hero by the Foo Fighters with a voiceover by that murderous pig, Bush. I can't fucking listen to that song without remembering it and I only heard it once but it was enough.