= new reply since forum marked as read
nap time for me. i made it this far in this thread.
I must leave, too. Errands to run etc. Good to see you 
-imm
because she herself is white? 
To answer your points, though, most of us KNOW about the double, even
triple oppression many women face. Some have argued that Black men, for instance,
and GAY white men, are no more oppressed than White women, and only HALF as oppressed as gay women, or Women of color. It's called "internationality".
Think about it, though -- What should she have said instead?
"Black Women, White women, Latina Women, Asian Women, Gay women and Trans women, and some who are all of the above, deserve equal pay".
Do you REALLY think that would be workable?
Predictable pieces of excrement....
yeah, that was phrased as a question too.
nice try.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023791179
A lot of posts here would seem to indicate that.
and my take is this:
I very much LIKED Arquette's comments, but her back stage comments were maybe a little "off" -- As someone said she was probably a bit tipsy, and I think the Twitter maybe be over-reacting...As someone down thread said, one of her sisters
is transgender.
The truth is, feminists, yes white feminists as WELL as feminists of color,
have ALWAYS been inclusive. Take the briefest glance at Ms. Magazine, and you'll
see that they are ALL about diversity, and have been for as long as I can
recall, and that's since it's inception in the early '70s.
National Organization for Women is SO inclusive of every progressive movement
imaginable, some think they've lost their focus.
The rap against "white feminists" is unfair, and, stems, I'd guess, largely from
lack of awareness and/or information.
P.S. I'm sorry if I was unfair to you...Some people I respect here seem
to be suspicious of your OP simply because, as one said, you've never posted on
women's issues before, or at least not positively.
Trust me, I know how you feel..I've been "piled on", alerted on, you name it.
I've never had a post hidden before so I'll just be quiet now.
You want the HR Profile of the man who was making more than me? That worked for me? His name?
How about the org chart?
Classic case - Huge dick of a Director (terrible towards all women) who hired me at a V.P's insistence from another group and deliberately and maliciously made it so that 2 year IT *fucking joke in a product marketing org*Associates and 7 years experience male was making more than me.
AFTER - I had to negotiate to get FAR more than they offered me prior to accepting the position - with my advanced degree and at that time 13 years progressive experience - he still fucked me over with that guy.
Yeah -
* Still have the org chart
*Still have t.v.'s profile from that time printed out and ready to go when necessary.
*Still have mine.
*It's numbers and data - it's really simple. S-I-M-P-L-E
Now when I came to Finance - same company - they made it right. I was very clear that I felt I needed to be in the 150 Club. And I got it -
because of those documents.
Funny - no one is talking about the massive layoffs in wireless right now . . . guess who will be the last woman standing? I am - I'm watching a lot of people go bye bye at the end of this week - but the women who have worked for that Director over the past 15 years? We all survived. Because we are organized and they know it. They don't want us to shatter their carefully crafted image about being one of the best places for Women, Minorities, Parents, etc. etc. to work.
I appreciate your pollyanna, ain't life swell, and everyone is huggy kissy sweetie lovey - but you must not work in a large enterprise organization or have ever worked in one.
Everyone is just out for themselves. And everyone will throw an elbow for the fun of it.
It's the way the game is played.
All I can think is there's no way you are in a large enterprise multinational if you have that positive attitude. You simply can't survive in my company without inflicting pain on everyone around you. You learn it 2-3 years out of school or you get out of Corporate.
you're either not really paying attention or you just don't get out much?
Just because you don't see it means it isn't there? You know, a tree just fell over in woods near my cabin, bet you didn't hear that either.
People like you already have.
If you have a Sadistic man who screams and berates his own wife over speaker phone with his office door open for all to hear -
It won't work.
I did that - and he didn't think I would ever look at my employees HR Page? It was malicious at that point.
Because he lowballed me, I asked for more - I got it - I was still placed under the salary level of this little geek with just a few years I.T. (This was Product Marketing Wireless Company so that's worthless when it comes to stuffing your numbers and the channel) and 2 years associate making more money than me.
In case you can't tell from interacting with me at DU 
- I'm kind of not a wilting flower in any facet of my life.
Now - I would love to tell every woman to walk from any and every single job offer that won't negotiate the salary - but with more of us having to support spouses/partners/families it's not so easy to play games when you are the sole bread winner. And when you get into those 30/40/50 K job women - if they have been out of work they are really stressed to get that money.
They didn't have a safety net so they are going to take what they can get.
for flattery here........ 
I'd like to head back to the 50s and change some things.
Nope. You make what you negotiate. Not what your credentials are. Credentials help you negotiate higher pay, but the higher pay fairy doesn't show up and make pay equal based on credentials.
There's a reason for the major taboo against talking about your pay at work. Because management doesn't want you to realize that Bob, the unqualified jerk who just sits on his ass all day, is paid more than anyone else in the department.
trying to end slavery? I mean, seriously. Why didn't those darn negroes get a better education if they wanted better pay?
And, no, the situations are not precisely equal, but there's a lot of overlap.
Still, some prominent anecdotal examples fuel the storyline of women battling their Mad Men bosses for the right to be treated the same as men. Hacked emails from Sony Pictures executives, for instance, revealed that megastars Jennifer Lawrence and Charlize Theron earned less than their male counterparts for similar roles in a couple of films. If Hollywood’s leading ladies can’t get a fair shake, how can mid- or entry-level working women? Meanwhile, a sexual discrimination lawsuit involving the high-profile venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers seems likely to highlight differing pay and performance standards for men and women in the money machine known as Silicon Valley when it kicks off this week.
Numerically, the gender pay gap clearly exists. It’s generally accepted that women earn just 78% of what men earn, on average. Women’s pay improved sharply during the 1980s and 1990s, but it has stagnated, relative to men’s pay, since then, as this chart from the Institute for Women's Policy Research shows:
This trend is distressing on the surface -- it implies that a woman who started in a certain field at the same time as an equally qualified man, and performed just as well, would nonetheless get paid less for her entire career.
But that’s not what is really happening in most cases. Women are more likely to take time off for family reasons, which slows their career development and their rate of pay increases--skewing average pay figures in favor of men. Women are also more likely to work part time or choose flexible arrangements over demanding work more likely to lead to promotions, so they're better able to care for other family members. Put another way, men are more likely to take jobs with grueling hours, which usually pay more.
In other words, choices women make themselves undoubtedly explain some of the pay gap—and that’s where the shouting starts. Some people believe that when accounting for these external factors, there’s no real difference between what men and women with comparable experience get paid for doing the same work. But some studies have shown that institutional bias against women remains ingrained, if tacit. Last October, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella managed to summon both sides of the thorny ssue last fall when he said women should "trust the system" to give them fair raises -- then basically took back his words after critics of both genders lambasted him as naive.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/working-women-are-earning-more-than-patricia-arquette-may-realize-174415329.html
I can very easily put together a whole bunch of sources that women don't make the same choices as men do. But I would think that's somewhat common sense. Look at college campuses and see what degrees men are enrolling in compared to women. Women also no doubt take off more time from work than men when they begin having children.
When you look at women under 30 who are not married and do not have children, they make almost exactly the same rate of pay as men. But when they hit 30 and get married and start having children....their male peers begin to speed ahead. I dont know of any way that fixes that issue unless you change the entire gender organization of our present society.
oh I remember you. im sorry we're not on the same page re:rbg. I think the risk of keeping her is too high, that line of thinking is hardly pathetic but my guess (I sure have been doing a lot of that) is we wont be on the same page there either. sorry 
wasn't paid LESS because of her temperament -- They didn't even KNOW what
her temperament would be when she was first hired.
Scolded women to do.
Because that has been working so well.
I think Arquette made a powerful point and made it well.
I'm paid what I'm paid and have no idea what the rest of my coworkers are making
BTW, I do consider myself at least pro-feminist, if not feminist altogether, but IMO, you don't have to call yourself one to be genuinely egalitarian.
Good for her!!! 
On stage and backstage.
I've gotta give her props on keeping her cool, btw: maybe she and Melissa Harris-Perry could hook up and do a show sometime? Just a random thought, but it'd be interesting to see, IMO.
Feminism has, sadly, gotten a *really* bad rap that it doesn't deserve, not just because of asshole RWNJs looking to muddy the waters, but also, to a lesser(but not by terribly much nowadays), the failures of keeping the many of the more extreme elements, be they the "womanists"
mostly a minority mainly of Afro-American feminists, usually more radical than their counterparts, felt left out, sometimes rightly and sometimes not so much, by mainstream feminism), or the "Schrodinger's Rapist" advocates, and just SJWs in general, have really put the hurt on a movement that really does deserve much more positive recognition....so much so, that a growing number of otherwise still genuinely egalitarian people are becoming pretty hesitant to identify as such, and this trend shows no signs of really reversing just yet.
And the fact that people attacked Mrs. Arquette over something so trivial.....that helps prove both of our points!
Women HAVE been at the forefront of virtually every social justice movement,
Check any online petition protesting cruelty and injustice of any kind and see if
the vast majority of names on it aren't female, and yes, we HAVE been used then disposed of.
So, yes, Feminism both needs and DESERVES the love.
Did you know that Gloria Steinem used to write a column called "Teddy Bear Tricks" for Glamour Magazine during the mid-1960s? I knew her writing from that column way before she was a famous feminist.
The photo below is of the September 1964 cover. In the bottom left-hand corner it says, "The Spy Story by Gloria Steinem... Plus Ways to Catch James Bond". It's very faint but I know that because a copy of that magazine recently sold on Ebay, which listed the cover articles in the description.
...
Long before she made history, Steinem was a New York City freelancer, writing about everything from mod haircuts to social policy. Glimpses of future feminism could even be seen in pieces she did for Glamour, like “The Student Princess (or How to Seize Power on the Campus of Your Choice).” Her then roommate Ali MacGraw remembers Steinem “working, working at her desk in the corner—I knew she was destined for great significance. She was a beautiful creature with so much substance.”
...
http://www.glamour.com/inspired/women-of-the-year/2011/gloria-steinem
Oh, and... she also wrote for Cosmopolitan too -- for one thing that I know of, an interview with John Lennon in 1964, and possibly more.
so current criticism of its feminist cred is worthless.
Gotcha.
Or is it "crud", I'm not sure which? I do so love the smell of snootiness in the morning. As I was just telling Jeeves... the view from the heights is so much better for looking down on one's strivings for social justice -- so much more satisfying that way. (Is one enough? Oh, I do hope so!)
Gotcha. backatcha.
Sorry if repeating my actual words is too "high falutin" for ya,
but thanks for telling us what you really think of women's rights --
Are you sure you don't have a Republic to Free somewhere, genius?
(I've heard tell that some folks do tend to be irony-and-sarcasm-challenged, but apparently I DID, in fact, as I feared, need more sarcasm smileys in the post above.)
I promise, your actual words will be etched in stone in a park somewhere. ( ) Because your words do equal women's rights, as we know (hence, your astute deduction that my snide-ity for the term and concept "feminist cred" equals the same for women's rights. But you should know, after all. ( )
I just don't know what might've taken place if you hadn't happened by, to 'splain all these important, and deadly serious facts to me. ( )
Well by golly, I feel just like a senile little old lady who's been helped across the big city street by a scout! And the McCarthyesque style-touch is cute too! ( )
( )
oh and
(I should've been done there, but as we see, inexplicably, I'm not.) ( )
And now, for further fun (I recommend online dictionaries to technically and explicitly define that term, as needed), and as an olive branch for my flagrant and inexcusable fuckup (for, among other things, inserting one of my random, inappropriate, and worst of all un-literal, thoughts a.k.a. musings, into this omg-so-serious-thread-because-it's-a-feminist-topic, to an unsuspecting poster, who let's admit, was minding their own business and had no reason to expect irony of all things, in a reply from a let's face it, unqualified and probably even non-card-carrying we-don't-believe-you're-a-feminist unspecified-person-of-the-woman-variety-but-we-all-know-that's-not-enough), I'm going to E-X-P-A-N-D this to make it one of my very-rare-very-long-posts by embellishing it with a lovely lyrical interlude and musical message from the sage of my generation... best summarized by its title, "Most Likely You Go Your Way (And I'll Go Mine)" ...but fair warning to the unwary, you can't trust him not to be sarcastic either. (Duly noted: all of the above.)
No scratch that,... on second thought, I'll make it this one -- 'cause I like it better... "Love Minus Zero / No Limit"...
My love she speaks like silence
Without ideals or violence
She doesn't have to say she's faithful
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire
People carry roses
And make promises by the hours
My love she laughs like the flowers
Valentines can't buy her.
In the dime stores and bus stations
People talk of situations
Read books, repeat quotations
Draw conclusions on the wall
Some speak of the future
My love, she speaks softly
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all.
The cloak and dagger dangles
Madams light the candles
In ceremonies of the horsemen
Even a pawn must hold a grudge
Statues made of match sticks
Crumble into one another
My love winks, she does not bother
She knows too much to argue or to judge.
The bridge at midnight trembles
The country doctor rambles
Bankers' nieces seek perfection
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring
The wind howls like a hammer
The night blows cold and rainy
My love she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing.
Watch out for the you-know-what ahead ... (
)
Ok Go, "Here It Goes Again", and you know what IT is! (
)
And now, to more fully sum up, and credify,, a bona fide expert on IT... (
)
(
) I trust that was sufficiently deficient, for all concerned. ( )
