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Fri Feb 27, 2015, 08:08 AM

As a member of what has become known as the "far left" those who attack me here don't anger me

No, attacks on the "far left" on DU make me depressed and discouraged, less likely to be engaged rather than more, less likely to care what's happening rather than more. I've already left DU for months, it just wasn't worth the deepening sense of depression I was feeling. I went over to Discussionist and argued with right wingers who also screeched "far left" at me but at least there I wasn't supposed to be on the same team so I didn't find it so much depressing as amusing. But I grew weary at Discussionist of continually having "shape of the Earth? Opinions differ." type of arguments so I eventually ended up back here at DU.

I spent over a decade listening to right wingers screeching about the "far left" on my radio while I was commuting until I finally realized that all they were trying to do was piss me off at which point I quit listening to them.

"Far left" is a conservative Republican meme that has been pumped into the national consciousness through quite literally thousands of radio stations and a full time 24/7/365 cable propaganda outlet. It's a phrase from Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich designed specifically to drive a wedge into the non-conservative Republican bloc in America.

Once again, I don't get angry when I hear "far left" on DU, I get more cynical and more depressed and more likely simply to wash my hands of politics altogether and pursue other interests of which I have several that make me actually feel positive rather than negative emotions.





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Arrow 213 replies Author Time Post
Reply As a member of what has become known as the "far left" those who attack me here don't anger me (Original post)
Fumesucker Feb 2015 OP
hobbit709 Feb 2015 #1
Pacifist Patriot Feb 2015 #6
Paka Feb 2015 #21
zomgitsjesus Feb 2015 #34
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Feb 2015 #42
Jackpine Radical Feb 2015 #127
Katashi_itto Feb 2015 #156
jwirr Feb 2015 #56
Marrah_G Feb 2015 #68
hifiguy Feb 2015 #108
raven mad Feb 2015 #140
billhicks76 Feb 2015 #163
sulphurdunn Feb 2015 #172
WilliamPitt Feb 2015 #2
Liberalynn Feb 2015 #61
Scootaloo Feb 2015 #3
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #5
L0oniX Feb 2015 #49
msanthrope Feb 2015 #141
Post removed Feb 2015 #144
MindPilot Feb 2015 #4
Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2015 #51
840high Feb 2015 #110
FLPanhandle Feb 2015 #7
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #8
FLPanhandle Feb 2015 #10
leftynyc Feb 2015 #20
mountain grammy Feb 2015 #71
cynzke Feb 2015 #206
AgingAmerican Feb 2015 #118
iandhr Feb 2015 #9
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #11
iandhr Feb 2015 #15
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #18
quakerboy Feb 2015 #179
A Simple Game Feb 2015 #24
jeff47 Feb 2015 #41
A Simple Game Feb 2015 #78
Fortinbras Armstrong Feb 2015 #202
A Simple Game Feb 2015 #204
RufusTFirefly Feb 2015 #37
iandhr Feb 2015 #54
Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2015 #55
iandhr Feb 2015 #57
Post removed Feb 2015 #59
iandhr Feb 2015 #62
Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2015 #64
Hissyspit Feb 2015 #117
ND-Dem Feb 2015 #193
randys1 Feb 2015 #102
ND-Dem Feb 2015 #104
randys1 Feb 2015 #106
ND-Dem Feb 2015 #107
randys1 Feb 2015 #113
ND-Dem Feb 2015 #157
Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2015 #109
randys1 Feb 2015 #112
quakerboy Feb 2015 #181
riqster Feb 2015 #12
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #13
RufusTFirefly Feb 2015 #38
2banon Feb 2015 #82
A Simple Game Feb 2015 #88
riqster Feb 2015 #90
randys1 Feb 2015 #103
A Simple Game Feb 2015 #150
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #153
ReRe Feb 2015 #198
riqster Feb 2015 #211
LiberalArkie Feb 2015 #14
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #17
LiberalArkie Feb 2015 #16
leftynyc Feb 2015 #22
LiberalArkie Feb 2015 #29
leftynyc Feb 2015 #39
riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #19
DanTex Feb 2015 #23
tkmorris Feb 2015 #25
DanTex Feb 2015 #28
Fuddnik Feb 2015 #32
USArmyParatrooper Feb 2015 #60
Ichingcarpenter Feb 2015 #26
hifiguy Feb 2015 #111
ND-Dem Feb 2015 #194
hifiguy Feb 2015 #199
ND-Dem Feb 2015 #200
Ichingcarpenter Feb 2015 #201
H2O Man Feb 2015 #27
cbayer Feb 2015 #30
Zorra Feb 2015 #69
cbayer Feb 2015 #72
Zorra Feb 2015 #74
cbayer Feb 2015 #77
Zorra Feb 2015 #96
cbayer Feb 2015 #98
Zorra Feb 2015 #116
cbayer Feb 2015 #120
Zorra Feb 2015 #169
cbayer Feb 2015 #209
Zorra Feb 2015 #212
cbayer Feb 2015 #213
ReRe Feb 2015 #197
2banon Feb 2015 #145
cbayer Feb 2015 #146
2banon Feb 2015 #148
cbayer Feb 2015 #149
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #73
cbayer Feb 2015 #76
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #92
cbayer Feb 2015 #97
JustAnotherGen Feb 2015 #31
KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #33
beerandjesus Feb 2015 #44
Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2015 #58
Duppers Feb 2015 #94
BainsBane Feb 2015 #35
Rex Feb 2015 #81
BainsBane Feb 2015 #84
Rex Feb 2015 #85
BainsBane Feb 2015 #86
Rex Feb 2015 #89
Jamastiene Feb 2015 #36
Solly Mack Feb 2015 #40
beerandjesus Feb 2015 #43
BlueJazz Feb 2015 #45
deutsey Feb 2015 #46
Duppers Feb 2015 #93
Octafish Feb 2015 #95
Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2015 #47
justabob Feb 2015 #185
dissentient Feb 2015 #48
AtheistCrusader Feb 2015 #50
Greybnk48 Feb 2015 #52
Cryptoad Feb 2015 #53
chervilant Feb 2015 #63
Zorra Feb 2015 #65
Enthusiast Feb 2015 #66
Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2015 #67
TBF Feb 2015 #70
KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #79
TBF Feb 2015 #99
KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #101
TBF Feb 2015 #115
2banon Feb 2015 #75
Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #80
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #139
Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #154
Rex Feb 2015 #83
MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #87
Mnpaul Feb 2015 #159
MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #162
Mnpaul Feb 2015 #166
MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #174
Dragonfli Feb 2015 #165
Mnpaul Feb 2015 #167
Aerows Feb 2015 #184
Dragonfli Feb 2015 #195
Aerows Feb 2015 #196
Rex Feb 2015 #173
guillaumeb Feb 2015 #91
ND-Dem Feb 2015 #100
randys1 Feb 2015 #105
sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #114
whatthehey Feb 2015 #119
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #122
whatthehey Feb 2015 #124
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #125
TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #207
Kermitt Gribble Feb 2015 #121
whatthehey Feb 2015 #123
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #126
wilsonbooks Feb 2015 #147
Kermitt Gribble Feb 2015 #152
bvar22 Feb 2015 #128
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #129
SomethingFishy Feb 2015 #131
Fumesucker Feb 2015 #137
SomethingFishy Feb 2015 #138
muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #155
2banon Feb 2015 #164
raouldukelives Feb 2015 #205
romanic Feb 2015 #130
SomethingFishy Feb 2015 #133
romanic Feb 2015 #134
SomethingFishy Feb 2015 #136
pa28 Feb 2015 #132
1000words Feb 2015 #135
daredtowork Feb 2015 #142
TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #143
Damansarajaya Feb 2015 #151
blackspade Feb 2015 #158
stupidicus Feb 2015 #160
ybbor Feb 2015 #161
Post removed Feb 2015 #168
marym625 Feb 2015 #170
Rex Feb 2015 #176
marym625 Feb 2015 #178
Rex Feb 2015 #180
marym625 Feb 2015 #183
Rex Feb 2015 #175
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2015 #171
Rex Feb 2015 #177
dissentient Feb 2015 #182
Yorktown Feb 2015 #186
G_j Feb 2015 #187
Yorktown Feb 2015 #188
TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #210
ConservativeDemocrat Feb 2015 #189
DeSwiss Feb 2015 #190
whereisjustice Feb 2015 #191
Corruption Inc Feb 2015 #192
Badass Liberal Feb 2015 #203
JonLP24 Feb 2015 #208

Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 08:11 AM

1. I tell people I'm a Democrat by default since there is no viable Socialist option.

And what I have to say to people that call me a leftist is "Damn right. What are you going to do about it?"

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 08:55 AM

6. +1

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:25 AM

21. Amen to that!

Far left is a a description I'm proud to claim.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:45 AM

34. Good for you.

Those that give you a hard time are envious. Stay strong and keep left.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:06 AM

42. I would call that a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Why is there no viable Socialist option? Because far too many people are unwilling to declare as such, and instead stay with their 'default'.

(Note that I am carefully wording this comment such that it is merely an observation, and not 'advocacy'. Sorry, centrists.)

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #42)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:57 PM

127. "Socialism" can refer to a political party

or, in this case, the centrist wing of one. (We have no left wing; nobody is actually proposing the nationalization of key industries). Bernie's no socialist in the classic sense, just a middle-of-the-road liberal.He's an Independent out of sheer cussedness and a Roosevelt Democrat by ideology. And remember that in his time, Roosevelt was pretty much a centrist Dem, who ended up saving capitalism from itself.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #42)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 07:17 PM

156. Careful there....

 

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:31 AM

56. Exactly. In 72 when McGovern was running that is what they called me. I agreed even back then.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:03 AM

68. I feel the same way

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:34 PM

108. Damn skippy!

 

I tell anyone who asks me what my politics are that I am a democratic socialist and have been for most of my adult life.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 04:22 PM

140. Wow, you can certainly read my mind!

And my mom's! Before she passed away at the age of 95, she was STILL a poll-watcher and "Blue Dog Democrat".......

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:08 PM

163. This Is The Fact...Clinton

 

The Clintons and other Blue Dog Dems are directly responsible for all the right wing crazy kooks we have now. Why? Because they pushed the center further to the right and Republicans feel the need to differentiate and distance themselves from us for purely CULTURAL reasons such as religion, sexual identity and hippiedom. To do this they must extend themselves even further to the right in what's now considered off the charts whacko territory. If we move the center to the left the. It's possible they pull back and feel comfortable moving back towards the center. Simple logic.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:46 PM

172. You miss the point.

 

Being a leftist is damn right (pun intended)and it always has been.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 08:13 AM

2. "When they're shooting at you...

 

...it means you're doing something right."

-- Old saying

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:47 AM

61. +1

 

If caring about common human decency, animals, and the planet over corporate profits makes anyone want to call me a left wing moon bat, they should feel free.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 08:28 AM

3. Anyone who thinks the far right only exists among Republicans isn't paying attention.

 

The amount of hate towards the left on DU only illustrates the problem.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 08:54 AM

5. There is a Fox News personality who seems to specialize in it

Alan Colmes is a giant among liberals next to that person.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:23 AM

49. We know who that is.

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 04:36 PM

141. Who? nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #141)


Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 08:50 AM

4. Very much agree...I feel the same way.

 

Quite simply I'm running out of fucks to give. Government at all levels has become its own self-perpetuating organism--"The Blob"--comes to mind. Irrespective of my level of participation--indeed even our collective participation--the outcome remains unaffected.

It is like watching a football game; yeah it's fun and sometimes a fight breaks out which is cool, but the fact is no matter how much i bet, how much I yell, scream and jump up and down, I cannot affect the score.

Our candidates are selected for us; someone who actually represents me would be destroyed early in a campaign. Until "do you believe in evolution?" and similarly ludicrous questions are met with peals of laughter, the system will remain broken. And of course if we do vote incorrectly, the court will fix it.

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:25 AM

51. So much this ^^^^^

And yes, I have zero fucks to give now.

Things will right (left) itself eventually - and sometimes that can get messy.

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Response to MindPilot (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:38 PM

110. ...^ that

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:01 AM

7. Only those who don't think for themselves are consistently "Far Left" or "Far Right"

There are thousands of issues out there, each issue with hundreds of potential solutions (left, centrist, right).

On any one of those issues and solutions, I may be Far Left, Neutral, and even rightist on a couple. I think the same goes for any intelligent person who thinks for themselves. Granted some people don't think for themselves, they let someone like Rush Limbaugh or, even, DU decide how they should think.

Anyone who is ALWAYS Far Left or ALWAYS Far Right, I would suspect isn't really thinking for themselves.

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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:04 AM

8. Did you happen to notice I didn't claim to be far left?

Or did that detail escape you?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:06 AM

10. Nope.

Just agreeing with you that "Far Left" is a make believe meme.

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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:25 AM

20. Very well put

 

Just this morning I had someone ask me why I had lefty in my handle because I didn't agree with a minority of Democrats on an issue the poster felt strongly about. Just asking someone to prove their "loyalty" should be a banning offense as far as I'm concerned. Nobody here has that right.

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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:17 AM

71. Well said.

These labels are phony and polarizing, which is why conservatives have had such success with them. Reagan started a new Civil War by relentlessly bashing "liberals" and it worked. I don't think America will ever recover.

Most people don't even understand what far left means but they're willing to go along with the generalization and vilification.

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Response to mountain grammy (Reply #71)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 09:27 AM

206. Couldn't Agree More!

Reagan started this "label" movement to use as ammo. It was successful. So successful, it has poisoned the country to the point government can't function and voters are turned off. We are egged on, manipulated to label and hate our opponents if they hold a different opinion. Not only are they wrong, they are EVIL. As long as we are in a tizzy fighting, perpetuating this fiasco, they have us where they want us. We are divided and we fall. Meanwhile, the people pulling our strings are laughing all the way to the bank. That would be the corporations and wealthy in this country. They are on the second phase of this successful campaign. Now they are focusing on the poor. Anyone who needs financial assistance. These people are being labeled as some kind of pariah that should be hated and despised. Assistance is labeled as "entitlements". If they can persuade us to to ACCEPT adopting a caste system where the poor become the dirty, unclean, scum of society, the easier it is cutoff financial assistance. They can't do that until we have been brainwashed enough to believe it.

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Response to FLPanhandle (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:20 PM

118. False equivalency strawman

 

nt

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:06 AM

9. There is a far left here it's a fact.

I constantly see threads calling the President a sellout for not getting a single payer or a public option health care law. Millions of people were helped by the ACA including me.


Do I support a public option yes. Am I going to set my hair on fire because it didn't happen no because I think getting something is better then getting nothing. It's what I call being a progressive pragmatist.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:10 AM

11. You do know who sabotaged the public option, yes?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:15 AM

15. Yes am very well aware of that fact and I don't care

And neither does anyone else wouldn't have had healthcare otherwise.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:21 AM

18. I'm impressed..

Mind reading is a rare skill.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:07 PM

179. Ummm... nope.

I wouldnt have had health care without the ACA. Had been years without.

I still care who betrayed us and sold us out.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:28 AM

24. But single payer isn't just a far left ideal, it is also a conservative ideal.

Think about it, what would be the cheapest and most efficient way to run our healthcare? That would be the conservative ideal. Now what would be the fairest and most democratic way to run our healthcare system? Each look for the solution from a different direction but end up with the same solution, single payer.

Now what would be the most capitalistic way to run our healthcare system? Our healthcare system today has nothing to do with right or left because the correct solution is the same for both.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:05 AM

41. No, a fundamental conservative belief is that government can not do anything.

So while single-payer costs less, requires less taxes, and gives better results, it is the government doing it.

And government can not do anything.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #41)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:29 AM

78. It probably would have been better if I had said fiscal conservative.

Conservative when referring to politics can mean almost anything these days but when I learned ( a lot of years ago) the definitions of politics what you are referring to used to be called a reactionary. Reactionary is a word I would like to see come back into use as it seems to be a very good description of the Republican party these days.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #24)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 04:56 AM

202. Do you know who instituted the first single-payer health system?

It was Otto von Bismarck, probably the most conservative Reichskanzler Germany ever had. He started it in the late 19th century, along with a government-paid old-age-pension scheme, for two reasons: They were two major planks of the Socialists and he wanted to steal their thunder; and he thought they were good for Germany.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #202)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 08:02 AM

204. I didn't know that, thanks for the history lesson.

Now if we could persuade our own conservatives to see the light.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:57 AM

37. You consider single-payer to be "far left"??

Have you considered taking a course in political economy?

Or, barring that, perhaps you should just head a little bit north to that hotbed of left-wing radicals, Canada.

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Response to RufusTFirefly (Reply #37)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:28 AM

54. I don't consider single payer to be far left.

It's something I would favor. I consider the purists who still complain about the alleged sellout that the ACA wasn't single payer to be annoying pursuits.

Some of these people don't care that 19,000,000 have care now that they wouldn't have had otherwise.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:31 AM

55. The ACA is the conservative option, though!

I just don't get it. The Public Option was the compromise. Not only on this issue, but I see us conceding our position and the compromise only to go with the "market-based" solution. If this was enacted by Mittens, no one would say a thing on the Republican side of the aisle, but since a black man beat them to it, that's the only reason they're fuming.

Again, the Public Option was the compromise, and I would have been happy with that - but they threw in the towel while still in the dressing room!

I'm not taking my ball and going home because we didn't get the single-payer solution, I'm pissed because we didn't even try to put that as our starting position - in fact, we just wanted to be at the table. Then our next negotiating position was dismissed as well, and we ended up getting the conservative option.

I'm sick of it.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #55)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:35 AM

57. You are sick of it.

I got healthcare because of the law. I had orthopedic issues that required five surgeries after I graduated college. I was able to stay on my parents plan because of the ACA.

So on behalf of the 19,000,000 million Americans who are getting care they would not have had otherwise because of the law **** you. We don't care that you are sick of it.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #57)


Response to Post removed (Reply #59)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:47 AM

62. I don't like the all or nothing folks

I want everyone to have the care they need I would support a single-payer system I know we already have a single-payer system called Medicare my point is 19 million more people having care is a better number than zero.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #62)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:51 AM

64. I wasn't being "all or nothing."

Had you read my post, you'd know that I'd be happy with at least being included at the table for discussion - which of course, didn't happen.

But hey, you got yours!

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #64)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:10 PM

117. Jury results. Sorry. You are right. Not fair.

I was juror #2.

On Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:59 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

You are sick of it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6287191

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

He states "**** you" in his post, and when I responded in kind, mine gets hidden? This is the first post I've ever alerted on, but is it only fair that if mine is considered offensive, so should his?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:05 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Nobody should be saying "**** you" here to other members, and, yes, the poster is correct about fairness.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agreed. Fair is Fair.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #117)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 12:32 AM

193. boy, that was a bad call. but, some are more equal than others.

 

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Response to Post removed (Reply #59)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:16 PM

102. Who doesnt have health care? When you answer that you will see that they would practically

ALL have it were it not for rightwingers fighting every step of the way.

If ACA had been allowed to go forward as designed, practically everybody would be covered, the only ones who would not would have chosen not to.

Now some of them could be in that zone where even with subsidy it is hard to pay a small premium, granted.

It is not perfect, but it is so much better than before.

No preexisting condition exclusion, etc.

Some people on the left are like ALL on the right, NOTHING Obama does is good enough.


To quote Joe Biden, "This is a big fucking deal"

Shame on your so called progressives or liberals who dont think so

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Response to randys1 (Reply #102)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:22 PM

104. why was it left to the states? so they could refuse it.

 

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Response to ND-Dem (Reply #104)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:27 PM

106. Read up on what the law initially said, what Roberts did to the law the first time around

if you are interested in who did what and why.

Obama and team did NOT set it up to fail.

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Response to randys1 (Reply #106)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:33 PM

107. lazy and unhelpful. rather than advising me to 'read up' every time you disagree with me,

 

why not at least link me to evidence for your version?

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Response to ND-Dem (Reply #107)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:45 PM

113. You made the god damn accusation that I assume meant ACA was DESIGNED to fail

so YOU now need to prove that...

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Response to randys1 (Reply #113)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 07:32 PM

157. you assume too much. as i said, if you tell me to read up, a link would be helpful.

 

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Response to randys1 (Reply #102)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:37 PM

109. You didn't read my posts, obviously ...

... so, I won't bother with an answer to your straw men.

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #109)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:44 PM

112. I was about to show you what you said but now i cant seem to find your post

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Response to iandhr (Reply #57)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:13 PM

181. 18,999,999, if that

I also obtained health care for the first time in years via the ACA.

I do care that he is sick of being sold out, fed lesser options when we could have had better.

Just because the ACA is better than what came before it does not mean its the best we could have done, had our elected officials chosen to represent the American people rather than select special interest groups.

And one small step forward definitely did not undo all the other damage done to our country over the past 30 years. Or even over the past 10 years. I doubt even over the past 5 years.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:10 AM

12. I think the whole left/right paradigm needs retired.

Anymore, it serves no purpose except to allow oversimplified bloviating.

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Response to riqster (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:12 AM

13. I don't disagree with that

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Response to riqster (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:00 AM

38. +1 n/t

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Response to riqster (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:39 AM

82. I'm with fumesucker, I don't disagree with this either.

 

The "left -><- "right" paradigm does need to be retired. it's been serving as a useful tool for the TPB and their dog and pony shows every election cycle but completely useLESS for the 99%.

it's damned time to retire it.

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Response to riqster (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:45 AM

88. Oh but it does serve a purpose, it keeps us divided.

The left and the right, as far as the 99% are concerned, all have in common the same problems. So why aren't we united in solving those problems? We are divided in how to formulate a solution. Everybody wants less abortions, fairer taxes, better health care, etc. Where we differ, or are often purposely divided, is in the best solution.

We can't be allowed to know how powerful we could be if we united. We could easily control this Country if we could just unite to solve our common problems.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #88)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:50 AM

90. Ought to be an OP.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #88)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:20 PM

103. I agree with your sentiment but NO, the teaparty does NOT want EVERYBODY to have

fairer taxes or better health care, etc.

Teaparty has a vision of this country that is frightening, it is why white supremacist groups are allowed in and so comfortable with conservatives...

http://www.pfaw.org/press-releases/2015/02/civil-rights-groups-gop-presidential-candidates-distance-yourself-cpac-s-whit



“Anyone who aspires to our nation’s highest office has a responsibility to be clear about what they stand for and what they stand against,” said Michael Keegan, President of People For the American Way. “These candidates need to make it perfectly clear that they won’t truck with white nationalists and that they reject intolerance and bigotry.”

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Response to randys1 (Reply #103)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 05:21 PM

150. The teaparty are not conservatives, they are reactionaries and often racists among other things.

Many may also be libertarians. The tea party are in reality Republicans, we should always call them Republicans. Those that don't like what the tea party candidates stand for but don't follow politics very well may well vote for them because they are listed as Republicans on the ballots.

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Response to riqster (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 06:28 PM

153. In an winner-takes-all electoral system, a main division into 2 camps is almost inevitable

Representatives in assemblies that continue over many electoral cycles are bound to end up forming parties - to sort themselves into groups that they can, usually, rely on to support their agreed agenda inside each party. When you can win a lot of seats by looking like "just more than a majority of public opinion", you'll end up with 2 parties, positioned along some axis, dominating the voting, each making themselves a big enough tent that they can, at times, win over half the seats.

While the commonly-taken meaning of 'left' and 'right' may change over time, it's very likely it will remain the name, whether or not anyone thinks it has a 'purpose'.

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Response to riqster (Reply #12)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 01:23 AM

198. Politics is the bane of this country...

... and if my memory serves me correctly, George Washington was against political "Parties" too. Our political system has driven a wedge between family members, friends, communities and states alike.

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Response to ReRe (Reply #198)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 01:11 PM

211. Washington and others.

Should have listened to them.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:13 AM

14. What a friend of mine said about me when I said I was more liberal than him

I am Jeff

Russ: He's right though..
As I'm so far left I might fall off the edge..

But Jeff's out there in the air hovering like some zen'd out ultra liberal..

I can only aspire to that level of clarity... But I have kids, so nothing is ever going to clear to me.

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Response to LiberalArkie (Reply #14)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:18 AM

17. Got grandkids yet?

They can be a lot more fun.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:16 AM

16. A lot of people are now PROUD to be called liberal and even socialist.

We are happy when people accept that we are "Far Left"

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Response to LiberalArkie (Reply #16)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:27 AM

22. I've always called myself a proud liberal

 

That doesn't mean I have to sign up for a checklist and agree with every single stance taken by someone who has taken it upon him/herself to decide and judge who is a liberal or not.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:38 AM

29. I agree, some to the ideas out there are just totallu batshit crazy.

I see nothing wrong with socialized electricity, water, roads, healthcare, etc. Might even through in internet, telephone and some others. Owned by the government but not controlled. Non profit. Why not controlled? Well we see what happens is tax payers do not want a new tax to improve xyz. It ends up being in horrible shape. But if the income stays in the electicity dept, or water dept, or telephone dept, then improvements get made. It used to be that corporations would do improvements but now days they have to only improve executive compensation not their service.

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Response to LiberalArkie (Reply #29)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:03 AM

39. Wall Street is the problem

 

If corporations try and concentrate on the future at the expense of their quarterly earnings report, their stock plummets, their stockholders come with pickforks and torches. I think the day that Walmart announced an increase in wages, their stock went down over 3%. The old adage "what's good for main street is terrible for Wall Street" is repulsively true.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:23 AM

19. Agreed. Hang in there Fumesucker. You're a bright light here

 



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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:27 AM

23. Maybe we need a different term for people who think Dems like Obama and Clinton are no better

than Republicans. What would you suggest?

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Response to DanTex (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:33 AM

25. Maybe we need a term for people who invent false beliefs out of thin air

And then ascribe them to other people in order to discredit them. What would you suggest? I have a few ideas if you're drawing a blank.

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Response to tkmorris (Reply #25)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:37 AM

28. I agree, it's a false belief. But I sure didn't invent it.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:39 AM

32. Realists?

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:42 AM

60. If, by "realist" you mean

delusional, then sure.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:35 AM

26. I sorta of feel like Zappa.. at times.














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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:40 PM

111. FZ was a very wise man who could cut through the bullshit

 

with a chainsaw of logic as very few could. "The crux of the biscuit" indeed

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #111)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 12:33 AM

194. he was a conservative republican. in all but name. i don't see why people are so enamoured of him.

 

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Response to ND-Dem (Reply #194)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 02:39 AM

199. Wrong. He was a libertarian lefty.

 

Moderately consevwtive fiscally. Radically leftist libertarian in all other ways. And yes there are left libertarians. See Noam Chomsky.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #199)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 02:47 AM

200. he was economically right wing, so no 'lefty'. libertarians are individualist capitalists who are

 

Last edited Sat Feb 28, 2015, 04:40 AM - Edit history (1)

ok with pot smoking, gay marriage, and the standard menu of individualist 'rights', including the right to starve.

Chomsky isn't a left libertarian. he calls himself an anarchist (anarcho-syndicalist), and has as long as I've been aware of him.


Noam Chomsky: The Kind of Anarchism I Believe in, and What's Wrong with Libertarians

Chomsky: Well what’s called libertarian in the United States, which is a special U. S. phenomenon... permits a very high level of authority and domination but in the hands of private power: so private power should be unleashed to do whatever it likes. The assumption is that by some kind of magic, concentrated private power will lead to a more free and just society...that kind of libertarianism, in my view, in the current world, is just a call for some of the worst kinds of tyranny, namely unaccountable private tyranny.

Anarchism is quite different from that. It calls for an elimination to tyranny, all kinds of tyranny. Including the kind of tyranny that’s internal to private power concentrations...

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/noam-chomsky-kind-anarchism-i-believe-and-whats-wrong-libertarians

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Response to ND-Dem (Reply #194)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 03:46 AM

201. I'm for the truth

Zappa spoke the truth in those statements







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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:37 AM

27. Recommended.

I have identified myself as "far left" for decades. I was "radical left" in my youth.

I get things done.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:38 AM

30. Are you "leftier than thou"?

I think we have a big tent here and there is a spectrum of positions on any given issue.

What discourages me is when people take the position that they are more progressive than every one else and that, because of that, they are better.

So perhaps "far left" is term you reject, but what would you call it?

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Response to cbayer (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:06 AM

69. democratic, small d. nt

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Response to Zorra (Reply #69)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:17 AM

72. What is the definition of that?

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Response to cbayer (Reply #72)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:21 AM

74. "of, relating to, or supporting democracy or its principles". nt

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Response to Zorra (Reply #74)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:27 AM

77. Well that's pretty broad and could include all kinds of moderates and even conservatives.

I don't see how that answers the question.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #77)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 12:28 PM

96. In nations where oligarchs own and control both the media and the political process,

there is no real democracy.

It's very simple. Buy the mainstream media, control your mainstream media, use the mainstream media to create culture and public opinion, and use it for your purposes.

Buy the government, control the government, and use it to control the populace for your purposes.

It's not rocket science.

The folks referred to by conservatives as "far left" are generally democrats who advocate for possible effective avenues of changing our system of government from oligarchy to some genuine form of democracy.

Many of these conservatives even consider leaders like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren to be "far left", when, in fact, they are simply plain old democrats.



No offense meant, cbayer, but if you are, for some reason, not aware of this obvious reality, we cannot conduct a conversation as peers. The frustration expressed by Fumesucker in the OP is the same frustration expressed by most democrats in general, certainly the majority of democrats on DU. If such a large number of "Big D" Democrats are so unaware of global political realities that they refer to folks like Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and DUers like Fumesucker, and the other democrats among us who see that the system is obviously rigged against us, there is no real hope for instituting democracy in the US, except through focused and effective direct action from outside the system.

The oligarchs will not allow democracy to manifest while they control the information and the political process; it's simply against their personal, and class, material interests.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #96)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 12:41 PM

98. If you start with the premise that we have completely lost our democracy, I

can see where you are coming from. I think it struggles and the rule of money has become a serious detriment to maintaining the idea.

But when there are countries that are theocracies or plutocracies or otherwise don't have any resemblance to a democracy at all, I think you have nomenclature issues when you state that the US if no longer a democracy.

I think we are all on the same team here. Those who push further left are important and valuable, but I also think there is value and importance in those who maintain a moderate position or even push back on some issues.

I was just discussing the Overton Window with FS, and I think it's a really interesting conceptual model. It explains both why you need people outside the window pushing in your desired direction and why it's important to have the bulk of your people somewhere inside the window, imo.

Only through working together will we get the change we are looking for. Your role is important but it is not the only important role.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #98)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:04 PM

116. Appeasement has been shown to be a continuing failed policy of epic proportions.

The polarization of wealth, and the degree of inequality and injustice experienced by the middle/working class, are accelerating exponentially at unprecedented rates.

I vote for Democrats because they are always better than republicans. Would I vote for a democrat instead of a Democratic Corporatist, if the democrat had a real chance of winning an election? Absolutely.

Yes, we are on the same team in that we will vote for Democrats in that they are almost always the lesser of two evils. I am a mixed race LGBT female. Not electing Democrats has many more clear and present life threatening consequences for me than electing them does.

The trap laid by the oligarchs is simple, but clever and effective: Either vote for the MSM supported corporatist candidate who will support some human rights, and probably institute some environmental protections, or vote for the MSM supported corporatist candidate who will crush human rights and destroy the environment with reckless abandon.

The controlled dissemination of information, and the institutionalized beliefs that conservative media has instilled into the general American consciousness, and the campaign finance system ensures that few democratic candidates (and only on a local or regional level) except for those chosen by the oligarchs can be elected in our two party system.



Under these circumstances, we clearly do not live in a Democracy, when democracy is considered in its basic definition:

"A system of government in which power is vested in the people, who rule either directly or through freely elected representatives."


Power in the US is not vested in the people, and we do not rule directly or through freely elected representatives.

I don't have nomenclature issues. Governments in other nations that are horribly oppressive and non-democratic do not prove that the US system is democratic, only that it is less oppressive and less horrible for most people. Unfortunately, the US is getting farther and farther from being a democracy with each passing day, and the obvious result of this process will be a feudal system, where the majority of the populace are serfs or indentured servants in the service of wealthy private interests.

Perhaps, in reality, we are already there.

It has been said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. This definition is somewhat appropriate for our political process: Some keep engaging in the same political process, and expect things to get better. Meanwhile, in the overall scope of things, things are definitely getting worse. Every day, wealthy private interests gain more control over our lives, and our and choices.

The problem with the Overton Window theory with regard to our situation in the US is that not enough people are allowed inside the window to make the necessary changes necessary for those outside the window, because those inside the window are employed by the multi-national wealthy corporation that owns the building.

I'm all for working together. A well planned and prepared focused, coordinated mass general strike with enough support might make the oligarchs consider relinquishing control of the government to those to whom it rightfully belongs.

The people.




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Response to Zorra (Reply #116)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:25 PM

120. I applaud your idealism and your activism.

I believe that people like you are necessary. I don't disagree with you about what the problems are or what needs to be fixed.

What I object to is the vilification of those who essentially share positions but occupy different places on the spectrum.

Perhaps I misunderstood the Overton Window, but i think that it's not about who is inside and who is outside. It is about the range of ideas that are considered acceptable by the majority of the people. Current policy resides in the center and reaches out in both directions.



Proponents of policies outside the window seek to persuade or educate the public in order to move and/or expand the window. Proponents of current policies, or similar ones, within the window seek to convince people that policies outside it should be deemed unacceptable.


While I think a well coordinated massive national strike would probably be effective in some ways, I am not at all optimistic that it will happen. When you begin to advocate for things in the radical and unthinkable parts of the box, recruitment becomes more difficult.

So, as much as some find it reprehensible, I think there is a place for moderate pragmatism. While people like yourself advocate for positions towards the extremes, those who make up the vast majority have to be convinced.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #120)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:34 PM

169. Honestly, I also believe the chances are slim that a mass general strike will happen,

but the fact remains that it is probably a necessary action for the American people to engage in, if they are ever going to have a chance at ending the rule of oligarchs in the US and institute democratic self rule.

On the other hand, there is zero chance that moderate self identified pragmatists will ever make any attempt whatsoever to end the rule of oligarchs in the US.

The word "pragmatic' means dealing with things sensibly and realistically, in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

Revolutions carried out for the establishment of greater justice, equality, liberty, and freedom from control by wealthy private interests, such as the American, Irish, Russian, and French revolutions, etc, were instigated and directed by people whom the status quo labeled as idealistic radical extremists.

In the long run, history has proven these so called "idealistic radical extremists", these revolutionaries, to be the real pragmatists.

History will show that those who are considered by the status quo today to be "idealistic radical far left extremists" are the real pragmatists of this present day.

"People must be aggressive for what is right if government is to be saved from people who are aggressive for what is wrong."

—Senator Robert M. LaFollette, Sr.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #169)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 10:05 AM

209. If you think that there is probably a necessary action that would change things

and that actually happening is slim, then I think other things ought to be put on the table.

There is not going to be a revolution in this country. We live like royalty compared to so many people in this world. It may not be perfect but advocated revolutionary change is going to move the needle nowhere at all.

OTOH, there is nothing wrong with sensible and realistic proposals that are based on practical considerations. It may not lead to the radical change that you wish for, but that doesn't mean there won't be change.

Again, I think you position is valuable and keeps the pressure on, but rejecting the approach of others is what I object to.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #209)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 03:42 PM

212. Yes, like you, having lived in Latin American countries, I am very aware that

that people in the US are generally very fortunate in the material sense.

My problem with political moderates in general is that they are not really all that pragmatic. If they make gains, they make small ones, and everything else continues to move down the sewer to the right, and decline, until they are voted from office, leading to an extremist conservative republican government that destroys the country in every way as fast as they possibly can, often with the help of moderate neo-liberal Democratic appeasers. (See Iraq War vote).

When the populace is tired of the stupidity and horror of the republican government, (see Bush), the public is propagandized into voting for the only real alternative to the republicans ~ moderate Democrats. The failure of moderates to effect necessary significant progressive change (see Universal Public Healthcare, corporate regulation, Citizen's United, gerrymandering, labor union expansion, etc) leads to voter apathy. Consequently, moderate Democrats continue to lose elections until the republicans retake control of the government again, wreaking destruction on everything and everyone on the planet until the propagandized populace wakes up enough once again to figure out that the republicans are wacko.

All the while, the republican party is gaining, and the Democratic party is losing. It is one step forward, a thousand steps backwards. Meanwhile, conscienceless wealthy private interests, and the radical right wing, continue to grow. The farther to the center the Democratic party moves, the stronger wealthy private interests and the radical right wing becomes.

The country has moved so far to the right that Democrats got slaughtered in the last election. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

This pattern has been established, and is set in stone, rinse, wash, repeat, ad infinitum. And the power of wealthy private interests, and their power to control the minds and lives of the populace, grows continuously and enormously with each repetition of the cycle. Yes, moderates do make some slow but welcome changes in social and environmental policy. They are allowed to do so, as long as these policies do not go against the wishes of the global wealthy private interests who control our government.

In defense of moderates, pragmatically, and generally, speaking, only moderate Democrats are allowed to be elected, and this is where their primary value lies in the grand scope and great stage of American politics; they at least make a little progress while in control, and the main benefit is that, during the time the moderates are in control, the republicans are not destroying, raping, and pillaging everything that exists at twice the speed of light.

So, all that said, I would like to ask you: What are your ideas, as a moderate, concerning enacting legislation that will effectively limit the power of wealthy private interests that influence (I would say control) our government, and institute a balanced democratic electoral system free from the inordinate wealth and power that private interests use to both control and win elections? What are your ideas concerning re-establishing the power and influence of workers and labor unions? And by what year, if this is even possible, do you feel that these critical issues can be addressed, and effectively and satisfactorily redressed by moderates?

Personally, I kind of like the radical executive order method that Lincoln used to end the evil of slavery in the US: "Slavery in America is now officially over. If you don't like it, you can kiss my ass."

You are probably right; the general population of the US appears too concerned and absorbed with the captivating exploits of the Kardashian sisters and the wild, wacky goings on of the Duck Dynasty to ever get off the couch and save their own asses.

Consequently, this generation, or any future generation of Americans, will never see any semblance of a genuine democracy.

But for some reason, some of us still feel a nagging obligation to try. Sometimes, a small, committed, idealistic, radical extremist group of people gets lucky, and somehow manages to get what really needs to get done, done. I suppose it can be said that moderates sort of hold the fort until the cavalry arrives.
------
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...

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Response to Zorra (Reply #212)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 04:20 PM

213. Let's take the example of healthcare.

While you think there has been a failure, I see an enormous success. Having been involved in healthcare extensive at both a practical and political level for many, many years, I had come to believe that it was going to be impossible to make the kind of change we needed to make.

While I agree that universal health care is the goal, I firmly believe that we were never going to directly to that. It's too radical, too much change.

But what the Obama administration did is amazing, imo. The kicked down the door in a way that I did not think could happen. We now have universal coverage.

It's not perfect by any means, but it is a clear first step toward universal care and I am 100% behind what is happening here.

It's not that only moderate Democrats are allowed to be elected, it's that that is as far as the general voting populace is willing to go.

The pendulum swings and will continue to change. In the meantime, people like me will blow at it, pushing it a little. People like you will send a windstorm it's way, which is good because there are those on the other side pushing back.

What are your ideas, as a moderate, concerning enacting legislation that will effectively limit the power of wealthy private interests that influence (I would say control) our government, and institute a balanced democratic electoral system free from the inordinate wealth and power that private interests use to both control and win elections? What are your ideas concerning re-establishing the power and influence of workers and labor unions? And by what year, if this is even possible, do you feel that these critical issues can be addressed, and effectively and satisfactorily redressed by moderates?


First off, I eschew labels in general. I am moderate on some issues, liberal on others, progressive on others and not really conservative on any. I have no answers to your questions. I evaluate those who are running for office. I evaluate pending legislation and up the noise when there is a chance to fight for or against something. I talk whenever possible to people that I meet about issues that I think are important.

I'm a very little cog, but I think I carry my own. I have actively participated in social movements and was a bigger cog at that time, but still pretty small. I come from a highly politically active family and my 85 year old father participated extensively in OWS and continues to be an activist.

As far as the Lincoln example, be careful what you wish for. It's a delicate balance and someone may come forward with something you despise and say, "If you don't like it, you can kiss my ass."

I am no longer an idealist. I am a pragmatist when it comes to most things.

But I honor the activists and your visions. Keep it on, but try not to demonize the smaller cogs who are doing what they can in the way they think is right. In the end, I think we need each other.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #116)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 01:11 AM

197. Rolling...

... general strikes of the kind you mentioned there in your last full paragraph.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #98)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 04:46 PM

145. oh, that old "inside" / "outside" thingy rationalized but intended to pacify.

 

"pacify" the opponent, enemy etc.. under the pretense of "big tent" - "working together" ruse.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #145)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 04:48 PM

146. Who exactly is the opponent, the enemy, that is being pacified?

What exactly is wrong with "big tent" and "working together"?

I am really unclear on what you are saying here.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #146)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 05:00 PM

148. nothing wrong with "working together" that's how anything good is accomplished

 

obviously.

but in this context, it might help to read up on the politics of inside/outside. then this will make sense, I think.

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Response to 2banon (Reply #148)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 05:14 PM

149. I don't know what the politics of inside/outside are, but I looked it up.

I see that it is a concept introduced by a specific group (Progressive Democrats of America) for a specific reason (reforming the Democratic Party). Is that correct? It means that progressives working inside the party join with progressives outside the party to elect progressive Democratic candidates and pursue progressive legislation, right?

But I still don't understand how you meant it when you said:

oh, that old "inside" / "outside" thingy rationalized but intended to pacify.
"pacify" the opponent, enemy etc.. under the pretense of "big tent" - "working together" ruse.


And I still don't understand who the opponent, enemy, that is being pacified is.

Perhaps there is some internecine war going on here that uses a nomenclature with which I am unfamiliar. Surely I am late to this particular party, but I've watched liberal and progressives Democrats eat each other up over who is leftier-than-thou for a long time, and this looks to be more of the same thing.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:20 AM

73. I try not to be, with of course varying degrees of success

It becomes more difficult when I discern what appears to be implied support for the Iraq war among other things.

Some few here always seem to take the most conservative position compatible with the TOS though and even manage to push the envelope on that.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #73)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:26 AM

76. And others seem to take the most radical leftist position compatible

with the TOS and push the envelope on that.

Like I said, it's a big tent and there are a spectrum of ideologies at play. While one may be far left on one issue, the same person may be relatively conservative on another issue.

The point of this site is to promote the Democratic part, it's candidates for office and it's platform. I doubt there is anyone here that is 100% behind all things Democratic.

But the divineness of condemning some as being too far left and others as not being left enough does nothing to advance that goal.

We could do with a lot more recognition that not everyone has to think just like me to have my support. We could also do with more recognition that further left is not necessarily superior on all things.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #76)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 12:12 PM

92. Are you familiar with the concept of the Overton Window?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

It's been moving to the right on economics at least since I was a young man and I'm a grandfather today and with a small amount of luck I'll see great grandkids before too long.

The way the Overton Window has been moved to the right is by the far right constantly screaming about the far left and they have a huge megaphone as I mentioned in the OP, a megaphone that the left absolutely does not have.

If you are headed for reefs on the starboard side you don't save your vessel by putting the rudder amidships and that's what some DUers seem to want and constantly criticize anyone who would prefer the helmsman put the rudder to port.

Anyhow, I'll get back to my knapping again.






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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #92)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 12:34 PM

97. I wasn't familiar with it, but I've just learned about it.

Very interesting. I think it has moved to the right on some issues and to the left on others, no?

I recognize that it is critical to have people who push things outside the window in order to apply continuous pressure in the direction you want to go in. I'm not saying that those that do that should go away, but if that is all that you have, there is very likely going to be a reactionary swing in the other direction, imo.

So not everyone needs to be doing that. It's ok to have a little counter pressure and a great deal of moderate participation.

Constantly criticizing others who are holding a different position is not very constructive in general, particularly when those people really do share your general values and goals. Perhaps the left is missing a megaphone precisely because of the diversity of opinion that seems so glaringly absent in the right.

Enjoy your knapping. We are heading out to test the recently repaired auto-pilot and dump the tanks.

Thanks for the hug, friend.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:39 AM

31. Good post!

I tend to be a moderate on business - but extremely far left on social issues . . . being for 'myself' is sometimes frowned upon at DU - at best dismissed with a wave an a plea to legalize weed.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:42 AM

33. Those who resort to the ad hominem 'far left' (or various other iterations), rather

 

than debate the substance of your positions, are consciously trying to provoke that sense of despair and the consequent quietism you evoke here.

The fact that 1% of the country's population controls (aka: "owns" 40% of its wealth and that 10% of the country's population controls 80% of its wealth cannot be defended on moral or ethical grounds. So that fact must be suppressed by ad hominem. That red-baiting shit has been going on here for over 100 years.

I respond that the USSR defeated Hitler while the U.S. and UK were playing at war in North Africa. Oh yeah, and the USSR put the first man and first woman into space. Those 'facts' usually serve to quiet the screeching a bit.

Here's a conversation-stopper quote you should feel free to deploy as necessary:

When one man has a dollar he hasn't worked for, some other man is missing a dollar he did work for.

~Big Bill Haywood of the IWW


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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #33)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:07 AM

44. And then they have the gall to accuse us of "suppressing turnout"

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #33)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:37 AM

58. I'm glad someone quoted Big Bill Haywood

And referenced the IWW!

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #33)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 12:20 PM

94. nailed it.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:48 AM

35. The fact is the labels mean next to nothing

I don't consider far left to be an insult at all. What I consider insulting is when people who claim to be on the left adopt pro-imperialist and pro-war positions, which they think acceptable if on behalf of a nation other than the US.

I also have noticed that some will insist that the "left" is something that can be claimed only by white men, because the concerns of the majority of the population, women, people of color, and LGBT Americans are "Third Way." I don't consider such people leftists at all. There is no version of leftism that treats social justice with contempt and excludes the majority of the population from consideration.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:37 AM

81. The Third Way is a neoliberal think tank of investment bankers. NT.

 

NT.

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Response to Rex (Reply #81)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:39 AM

84. It's also used by some to insult other DUers

who disagree on any particular point, usually over some obsession with a particular public figure.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #84)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:41 AM

85. Well I guess they have no idea what the Third Way is then.

 

People inaccurately talk about it all the time, no doubt out of ignorance.

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Response to Rex (Reply #85)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:43 AM

86. Let's add that to the list

along with neoconservatism, fascism . . .

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #86)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:48 AM

89. Yeah that would be a long list no doubt.

 

Easier to call someone a name then debate their point, I agree.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:51 AM

36. The really sad part is that the country is finally ready

to move at least a good ways "left" but we are still hashing out how Republican our candidates need to "act" to get elected. The even sadder part is that too many of our Congresspeople don't seem to be "acting" once they get into their seats. They really are conservative on issues that used to be the opposite of what the Democratic Party stood for. To me, that is the most depressing part. Some of the ones who pretend to be "acting" conservative to get elected, really are.

You are right. It is depressing, all the way around. Our choices are move right or move batshit teabagger right. We have no other options, because somewhere somebody said so and the rest of us had better get in line or else.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:04 AM

40. K&R

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:06 AM

43. Especially since the Democratic party is actually America's conservative party.

There's nothing conservative about the massive social and economic upheaval Republicans advocate on a daily basis. What they propose is nothing short of radical.

The idea that we should preserve and protect what previous generations of Americans have built is fundamentally conservative--whether we're talking Social Security, voting rights, public infrastructure, or restraints on the super-wealthy.

For those of us on the supposed "far left", probably 80% of what we advocate is actually abandoning the failures of the past 30 years and looking to what worked in FDR's time... how is that NOT conservative?

Show me a "Democrat" using the term "far-left" as an insult, and I'll show you someone who, in going along with the Republicans, is probably advocating more radicalism than I am..... and I say this as one who is happy to claim the term "far left" as my own!





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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:10 AM

45. For what it's worth...I like you and your views on life and politics.

 

Your posts are always worth reading.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:11 AM

46. Yep, "far left" and even "liberal" were deliberately turned into insults

mainly, imo, because the left and liberalism were so successful in the '30s and '60s.

The corporate right is terrified that something like that will happen again in America. If they can demonize left/liberal analyses and solutions, they've nullified any real alternatives to their free market/authoritarian worldview and even get us to play their game by their rules (which means: we lose).

Here's an interesting paragraph from an article in The Nation recently ("We Need Syriza in Illinois":

The corporate right has a worldview, and, as Edelman’s speech demonstrates, it also has a power analysis from which all strategy flows. In the 1930s, the progressive movement’s analysis of power rested squarely on the faith that workers in large numbers—organized workers—could challenge unfettered corporate power and improve social conditions. And for many generations, through their unions, that is what they did. Now, progressives in and outside of unions have replaced power structure analysis with short-term tactical maneuvers that rely on something fashionably known as narrative change, done best through paid social media, devoid of vision and without the active participation of large numbers of workers. Worse still, despite our defeats in Wisconsin, our own movement continues to throw large numbers of women and African-Americans under the bus by characterizing public service workers as somehow different from, and of lesser importance than, the heroes of the twentieth century’s labor struggles, the largely white male labor force of heavy industry.

http://www.thenation.com/article/198073/we-need-syriza-illinois#

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Response to deutsey (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 12:18 PM

93. ++

Great post.

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Response to deutsey (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 12:20 PM

95. When did 'liberal' become a dirty word?

by Clarence Page
Chicago Tribune, July 29, 2007|

The greatest triumph that conservatives ever achieved is to make liberals embarrassed to call themselves "liberal."

That thought came to mind as I watched Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton rhetorically wriggle her way, as so many liberals do, right out of using the "L-word" to describe herself.

During the CNN/YouTube debate by Democratic presidential candidates, Clinton was asked, "How would you define the word 'liberal' and would you use this word to describe yourself?"

Briefly she showed off her knowledge of the word's various meanings over the past, oh, century or two.

She pointed out how the word used to mean that "you were for the freedom to achieve, that you were willing to stand against big power and on behalf of the individual."

She lamented that the word "in the last 30, 40 years" has been "turned up on its head" and "made to seem as though it is a word that describes big government."

So, she said, she would rather call herself a "modern progressive" who "believes strongly in individual rights and freedoms" and "working together" to "find ways to help those who may not have all the advantages in life get the tools they need to lead a more productive life for themselves and their family."

Nice speech. Historically accurate too. Early liberals were opposed to the oppression brought on by big government. Adam Smith, a founding father of free-market "invisible hand" capitalism, was a classic liberal in that sense.

That sense evolved under the trust-busting of Theodore Roosevelt into a protection of individuals from abuses by big institutions in the private sector too.

Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal shifted the meaning further in favor of big government as a benevolent shield and safety net against unpredictable disasters of life.

After President Lyndon B. Johnson's Great Society expansions, it was perhaps inevitable that liberals would go overboard and lose touch with growing middle-class resentments about taxes, welfare abuse and government inefficiency.

The conservative revival found its finest megaphone in Ronald Reagan, who declared:

- "Government is not the answer to the problem. Government is the problem."

- "The most frightening words in the English language are 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you.'"


Democratic presidential candidates were blindsided by the Reagan counterrevolution. It took the centrist Bill Clinton to reunite the coalition across racial and class lines that earlier liberal presidents enjoyed.

But for all the efforts by the Clintons to call their politics "centrist" or "progressive" they still get tagged with "liberal" by conservatives who define "liberal" as anyone who is not their idea of conservative.

CONTINUED...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-07-29/news/0707280330_1_liberal-conservatives-big-government

Now, who would have that kind of power and money needed to control the way a word is used in academia and the news media?

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:18 AM

47. This post speaks to me.

I don't get angry. I just resign myself to finally understanding that things will never change meaningfully in this nation, when advocating for things like a normal living standard, gender equality, egalitarianism, end to the corporatocracy, money out of politics, action against climate change, universal health care, etc. is treated as "not normal" or "far left." No, these are common sense, pragmatic and moral things to do. If you want "far left," let things continue like they are; that's how revolutions are made (and I'm not talking about revolution in the strict violent uprising sense, thought that could happen, as well, but revolutionary change can take form in many ways). Yes, then, you'll see the "far left" come out in me!

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Response to Fantastic Anarchist (Reply #47)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:29 PM

185. these are common sense, pragmatic and moral things to do

Yes, what you said. How is advocating any of those things extreme or in any way controversial?

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:20 AM

48. The more that some insult the left or progressives, the more the left's influence is being felt

 

And heck, I'm used to it by now. The right wing has been insulting the left for years, so if centrists on this site want to join in, its no biggie.

In another thread, I said it really pisses people like right wingers and Democratic centrists/conservatives off that progressives are invariably right on the issues.

That is why it is very rare to see them try and debate progressives on the issues, instead, its all about juvenile and moronic personal attacks. Which really shouldn't be paid any attention to, it's like giving serious attention to a snotty kid who says things like - "You poopie head!"

In other words, these insults are on the exact same level. Far from intelligence, or meaningful debate.


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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:24 AM

50. You're good people.

Don't let it get you down.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:27 AM

52. Your post speaks to me as well, Fumesucker.

All of it becomes discouraging over time, which I'm sure is the plan. What is so aggravating is that we are in the majority ("far lefties", as you allude to, but most people don't know they agree with us. Where on Earth would they get the needed information from a readily available source? It's sad.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:27 AM

53. Seems that is not the idealogy of this group of which you speak

that many find objectionable , rather it is the constant hateful negative spin that is given to other Democrats whose are members of this "far left" group. IMO,,,If as much energy was spent on the positive attributes of candidates with whom you agree support, The cause of "Progressivenism" would be better served. If Progressive Candidates can not stand on their own, they will never succeed!


Warren/Krugman 2016

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:50 AM

63. You're in good company, Fumesucker.

I used to despair over the false narratives that keep the Hoi Polloi divided and divisive. I wondered (still wonder, in utter amazement) how we keep missing the fact that radical income inequity is our slavery du jour, and that our economic behaviors are on the razor edge of the Abyss of Profound Change. That the internet will remain neutral gives me hope that #Occupy and Anonymous might be the vanguards of the changes to come.

Trying to engage people in discussions about our economic behaviors often nets what I call the "deer in the headlights" look so common among my math students. I got into a lively and instructive discussion with my nephew just yesterday, and I am so thrilled that he is thinking about the economy and (gasp, shudder!) the challenges we're facing as a species. No "deer in the headlights" from him! I suspect that more of our younglings are so thinking, and that is a good thing.

I hope to embody the liberal perspectives that won us a 40 hour work week, weekends, benefits, Social Security, Medicare, and other incredibly important workers' rights. These are small solace in an economic system that oppresses the vast Hoi Polloi for the enrichment of a minuscule number of (largely) old, white males. But, it's a start--or, should I say, a foot in the door.

I DO hope that the minimum wage will increase (gradually), so that more of the Hoi Polloi can participate in this oppressive economic system, and stave off hunger and homelessness. But, if the austerity of poverty is the catalyst needed to effect radical change, so be it! (And, thanks, Z***, for helping me see your POV.)

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:57 AM

65. Very well said, thank you, Fumesucker.



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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:59 AM

66. K&R..........I'm with you, Fumesucker.

Centrist policies are repeatedly characterized as far left.

I am losing my enthusiasm. High enthusiasm equals high voter participation. I'm just saying.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:00 AM

67. "Far Left" is the modern way of saying "Commie", "Red", "Troublemaker", "Dirty Hippie".

 

I'm 70. And, I've heard them all directed at me and others who dared to challenge the establishment and hold public servants accountable.

Freedom for supporters of the government only, for members of one party only, no matter how big its membership may be is, no freedom at all. Freedom is always freedom for the man who thinks differently.

Rosa Luxemburg

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:07 AM

70. Republicans wouldn't know the "far left" if it bit them in the

you know what.

Besides, serious leftists were deported by Palmer and McCarthy. That was within the last 100 years and we are so watered down that CPUSA endorsed Obama for president. Seriously. They have no clue.

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Response to TBF (Reply #70)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:31 AM

79. I'm not a member of CP-USA (although my introduction to the

 

Last edited Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:16 PM - Edit history (1)

principles of Marxism came in the mid-70s from a CP-USA member at the time). I understand that the CP-USA has since turned away from its illustrious past and become quite the 'reformist' party (the technical term for this is 'Browderism,' IIRC). But it was not always thus.

I just laugh when I hear Republicans call Obama a 'Socialist.' (They also call FDR a 'Socialist.') I mean, what else can you do? You can't educate the fools. And we don't have a gulag, which in any case should be reserved only for high-level enemies of the state like Bush and Cheney and not quotidian thought crimes.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #79)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 12:55 PM

99. No I'm not either -

I'm actually registered as a dem because I caucused for Obama in TX in 2008 (and served as co-precinct chair). After 8 years of the Bush/Cheny hot mess we needed someone who could win to get him the hell out of Washington. I literally breathed a sigh of relief when he got on the helicopter and left. I'm sure Obama did as well.

So I look for the least objectionable candidate whenever I face the ballot. The person(s) who will do the least amount of damage and maybe even help some of us normal folks.

And in the meantime I advocate from the left because that is the only way to even slow down the monsters (capitalists) in charge.

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Response to TBF (Reply #99)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:13 PM

101. Your philosophy sounds very similar to mine. However, while I consider elections important, I tend

 

to spend far less time on them than I do on more direct activities, like volunteering to help the homeless or protesting against the war(s) (while Bush and Cheney were in office) in the streets. I live in Maxine Waters' CD and she and the CA Dem Party hardly need my help or efforts, when compared to the needs of others far less fortunate.

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Response to KingCharlemagne (Reply #101)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:47 PM

115. Oh definitely - I agree 100% nt

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:26 AM

75. I Hear Ya Fumesucker! What passes for "Far Left" on DU would be laughable if it were Freeperville

 

What is actually moderately leftist views expressed here are often viewed as "extreme"..

There is a certain wanting of a more higher (for the lack of a better term), level of discourse with regard to socio-economic issues, current geo-political events, but most especially to our own highly corrupt political "system" as concerns Elections, National Security State, and so on.

What gives me hope, are the scores of highly informed members here engaging and sharing information despite the assassin attempts to derail and disrupt by Neo-Conservatives here, posing as "Liberals".

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:33 AM

80. I will say that I have seen "liberal" used in ways that are near identical

to the way it has been used on the right, as a pejorative.

And it annoys me to no end, being old enough to have seen the word "liberal" and the phrase "far left" so demonized.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #80)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 04:04 PM

139. I'm really not very good at doing OPs I have to work at it fairly hard

These days my memory works better when I have something to play off and respond to, pulling an OP out of my head is a lot more difficult.

That being prelude to saying that I should have put liberal used as a pejorative in my OP and didn't think of it, thanks for bring it up.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #139)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 06:53 PM

154. Your welcome. It is a great OP.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:39 AM

83. Those that attack the left are not progressives at all.

 

Which is why I take everything they say with a grain of salt. They talk just like the GOP and hate on liberals just like the GOP. Pretty easy to figure out.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:45 AM

87. The other alternative is to "get even"

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #87)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 08:21 PM

159. or call "bullshit" on the whole thing

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026276064#post327

The right of center Democrats have to relabel the left "far left" to make themselves look left of center.

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Response to Mnpaul (Reply #159)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:00 PM

162. That would be a good call, in that instance

 

We should start calling them the far-right Democrats or something.

Reagan Democrats?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #162)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:20 PM

166. New Democrats = Old Republicans

all you have to is read the '56 Repub. party platform posted elsewhere in this thread.

BTW - I did consider using "far-right Democrats" in that post. Either term works for me.

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Response to Mnpaul (Reply #166)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:49 PM

174. I think today's far-right Dems are to the right of 1950s Republicans

 

1950s Republicans insisted on a 91% top tax rate, and were OK with unions.

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Response to Mnpaul (Reply #159)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:17 PM

165. I fully agree, at times I have even lost all patience and with it calm civility

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #165)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:24 PM

167. I don't need patience

They usually run away quite quickly. If they don't, I post more stuff they do not care to see.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #165)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:29 PM

184. My reply to that hunk of darkness

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026274464#post108

Put that one on ignore if you value your sanity.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #184)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 12:43 AM

195. I probably should, It's just I don't like ignore because with prolific posters it removes so much

of the conversation it can make it hard to discern what happened to a disrupted thread once it has been disrupted by such.
Also, I can not stand bullys and that one goes after everybody in sight.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #195)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 12:51 AM

196. I can't stand

 

bullys. But I also can't stand people that provoke, bully and then smile when they piss someone off over the cliff.

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Response to Mnpaul (Reply #159)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:49 PM

173. That sad poor Foxnews pundit. They won't even pay him!

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:55 AM

91. calling someone "far left" is a cheap rhetorical game

designed to confuse people. The GOP has been successful at framing the argument on a variety of issues over the past 35 years. Ronald Reagan was the perfect President to do this because he seemed sincere. And we all know that when you can fake sincerity you can win the debate.

Anytime we allow the GOP to set the terms of the debate we will lose the debate. When the GOP decides the range of options the left has no options. That is how things work. When Bush the Lesser said: "you are either with us or you are with the terrorists" he was only following the GOP playbook. And it worked. Rather than discuss the "why" of September 11, many Democratic politicians fell all over themselves to declare that they were just as tough as the GOP when it came to fighting terrorists.

Same thing happens with Social Security. Rather than discuss how we can adjust benefits to preserve Social Security, discuss raising the ceiling on income subject to the tax.

When you wrote:

"Far left" is a conservative Republican meme that has been pumped into the national consciousness through quite literally thousands of radio stations and a full time 24/7/365 cable propaganda outlet. It's a phrase from Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich designed specifically to drive a wedge into the non-conservative Republican bloc in America.

you nailed it. Memes are great because they are easy to remember. Bumper sticker philosophy for the illiterate.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:03 PM

100. "'Far left' is a conservative Republican meme" now often heard on this allegedly Democratic

 

website by alleged Democrats.

That's what I find depressing.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:26 PM

105. Obviously someone referred to you as far left as if it were an insult...

IS that what these threads are about?

Context please?

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:46 PM

114. I have just finished responding to comment accusing me of NOT BEING A DEMOCRAT

because I do not support Hillary as a candidate for the WH and would prefer someone less Hawkish to lead this country..

So I know what you mean. If this the NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY, no wonder they are losing elections.

But for me, it is not acceptable to allow them to drive long time Democrats out of the Party, which appears to the the goal.

It makes me MORE determined to take the party out of the hands of those who clearly despise the Left because it is OUR Party.

However you are correct, these tactics of attacking Democrats is driving voters away.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:23 PM

119. Why should it?

I have no idea why people resist and resent demonstrably true non-pejorative descriptors, and far left is both for much of DU. Even though I am way closer to the center than many here overall, I have quite a few opinions that fall in line as far left compared to the overall US population. I describe them that way myself and have no problem others using the term. Things like health care, progressive taxes, corporate taxes and regulations, basic income guarantees spring to mind. Things like absolute equality for all and legalization of drugs used to be far left but are now becoming a bit more centered.

Now if you share those opinions AND think that, for instance, all guns should be destroyed, capitalism needs to be overturned, wealth caps should be put in place at a millions rather than billions level if at all, military budgets should be cut by 90%, whole industries should be nationalized, bank CEOs should be imprisoned en masse etc etc (and these are not difficult opinions to find on DU by any means) then that kind of worldview would correctly be identified as far left in the US and there's nothing wrong with that. Most Americans will disagree, me included, but most Americans disagree on all kinds of preferences and opinions and unlike the far right opinions (where strangely there is little resistance to the label) there is likely to be little direct harm caused beyond economic drags. People wouldn't starve or die under such plans as a matter of course.

So far left is simply a position on the political spectrum. It HAS to exist. Somebody has to fit on that edge as it's a continuum, and when poll after poll after poll shows a large supermajority of self-described liberal Democrats who, for example, approve of Clinton and Obama, where else would people who consider them to be far far too right for their tastes, a very common opinion here, fit on that spectrum but much further to the left? What should that position be called on the left-right continuum when about 90% of the populace either thinks Obama is too left wing or doing fine? How small does the tail of people even more leftward have to be before far left is the best descriptor?

It's not the newest of polls but it's unlikely to have shifted too much so here's exactly what I mean. Only 10% of Americans think Obama is too conservative, and that of course must include people who think he is only a BIT too conservative. So when people disparage him on DU as being way too right for them, far more than 90% of the US disagrees and has a less left leaning opinion of him. What else could that possibly be then but a far left opinion?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/152954/half-say-obama-liberal-agree-issues.aspx

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #119)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:41 PM

122. I haven't ever advocated any of the things you list

all guns should be destroyed, capitalism needs to be overturned, wealth caps should be put in place at a millions rather than billions level if at all, military budgets should be cut by 90%, whole industries should be nationalized, bank CEOs should be imprisoned en masse etc etc


And yet I get the label "far left" or "fringe left" thrown at me fairly regularly and I know I'm not alone.

It seems to me to be more about candidates and personalities than anything. For instance if you aren't "Ready for Hillary" at this moment there is a clique here who delight in throwing terms like fringe left around despite the fact that Hillary hasn't even declared she is running yet and probably won't for quite some time yet.

What's interesting to me is that the 1956 Republican platform sounds like a leftish Democrat now, you really don't have to go much further left to be labeled fringe or far left these days.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/print.php?pid=25838


On social services:

We are proud of and shall continue our far-reaching and sound advances in matters of basic human needs—expansion of social security, broadened coverage in unemployment insurance, improved housing and better health protection for all our people.

On the environment:

• We favor a comprehensive study of the effect upon wildlife of the drainage of our wetlands.
• We recognize the need for maintaining isolated wilderness areas.

On regulation of business:

• A continuously vigorous enforcement of anti-trust laws
• Legislation to enable closer Federal scrutiny of mergers which have a significant or potential monopolistic connotations
• Procedural changes in the antitrust laws to facilitate their enforcement.


On labor:

• Stimulate improved job safety of our workers, through assistance to the States, employees and employers;

• Continue and further perfect its programs of assistance to the millions of workers with special employment problems, such as older workers, handicapped workers, members of minority groups, and migratory workers;

• Strengthen and improve the Federal-State Employment Service and improve the effectiveness of the unemployment insurance system;...

• Assure equal pay for equal work regardless of Sex;

• Clarify and strengthen the eight-hour laws for the benefit of workers who are subject to federal wage standards on Federal and Federally-assisted construction, and maintain and continue the vigorous administration of the Federal prevailing minimum wage law for public supply contracts;

• Extend the protection of the Federal minimum wage laws to as many more workers as is possible and practicable;

• Continue to fight for the elimination of discrimination in employment because of race, creed, color, national origin, ancestry or sex;

• Provide assistance to improve the economic conditions of areas faced with persistent and substantial unemployment;

• Revise and improve the Taft-Hartley Act so as to protect more effectively the rights of labor unions, management, the individual worker, and the public.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #122)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:43 PM

124. Do you think Obama is too conservative? Only 10% do. How should we describe the leftmost 10%?

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #124)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:46 PM

125. As I pointed out in the OP the Republicans have been "working the refs" for several decades now..

I'm a little left of the 1956 Republican platform, if that puts me in the 10% then the problem is obvious.

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #119)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 09:55 AM

207. New Dealism isn't far ANYTHING and the voices outside of that are miniscule functionally, the nation

doesn't even have a left, much less a far left. We have a duopoly with two right wings, one so far off balance that it points down and the other in a little closer to going around the bend than most that naturally should be in that position.
Democrats are quite possibly the second most rightest governing party in the developed world.

Open your eyes, essentially Bircherism is now a solidly "main stream" ideology, a "conservative" one but definitely mainstreamed. Any objective "moderate" on the political spectrum has to get in the neighborhood or at least viewing distance from "far left".

Sure, there are folks that might hold some more actually leftist beliefs be it one, several, many or on some rare occasions be firmly camped there but they are not generally speaking even ever heard from much less actually driving the bus at all.
Democratic - Socialist are all but nonexistent and virtually powerless, the significant spectrum of further left is vaporware for all intents and purposes.

Meanwhile, across the aisle we've got folks openly tap dancing and pushing on the lines that cross into theocracy, feudalism, the dark ages, colonialism, the worst of Dickinson, and pre Magna Carta times.

Bullshit, most of what passes for the "far left" today are yesterday's mainstream and folks claiming to be ever so "liberal" are Reaganites without the Southern Strategy with "Centrists" being the safety net cutting austerity nuts, slaves to the MIC, wage killing loons that Ike warned us about.

The political spectrum is a broken joke with the full and varying range of The Good Old Boys from "The Blues Brothers" both kinds country and western.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:29 PM

121. '"Far left" is a conservative Republican meme'

Yet, we see it used so much here...

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Response to Kermitt Gribble (Reply #121)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:42 PM

123. How can it not be a perfectly valid descriptor

If you have opinions to the left of 90+% of the nation, what else can you be but far left? Since some opinions are left of others what are those who consistently prefer the opinions much further left than the norm properly to be called?

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #123)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:51 PM

126. But my opinions on *policy* are not that far to the left of what the public says it wants..

With the proviso that the term "Democratic" , "liberal" or "left" be stripped from those policies in the polling questions.

Liberal and left have been demonized for so long that many people automatically react negatively to those words without knowing what they actually mean.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #126)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 04:56 PM

147. Plus 1000

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #123)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 05:55 PM

152. Can you give some examples of these opinions that are to the left of 90+% of the nation? n/t

Edit to say I just read you're response to the OP above.

I see very few people supporting the "far left" issues you listed. Many DUers are regularly labeled "far left" simply for their support of traditional Democratic Party values.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 03:11 PM

128. There is NO "Far Left" on DU, and not much of one in th USA.

Nobody here has advocated for the confiscation of private property, and organizing the workers into collectives. THAT is "Far Left".


The DU members being labeled "Far Left" are those who still believe in the New Deal (FDR) and the Great Society (LBJ)


In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be[font size=3] established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.[/font]

Among these are:

*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

*The right of every family to a decent home;

*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

*The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

[font size=3]America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.[/font]


Please note that the above are stipulated as Basic Human RIGHTS to be protected by our government,
and NOT as COMMODITIES to be SOLD to Americans by For Profit Corporations.

I believe in those principles. They are not "Far Left".
They are mainstream FDR Democratic Values.

My vote and support WILL go to whoever BEST embodies these values.
I am too old and tired to again support the Least of the Worst.
Let the chips fall where they may.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #128)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 03:35 PM

129. Pretty much what you said..

It's really a shame that the New Deal is now considered to be extremist.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #129)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 03:45 PM

131. Yeah, this is what happens when everyone moves to the right and we stand still...

Same goddamn opinions I have held since my 20's. Only then I was considered a Democrat and now I am considered, "far left loony".

Like you I used to be a daily contributor here. Now days I come by once or twice a week and can't stay longer than it takes to read a few threads. And that is with me filling up my ignore list. I came here in 2004 and for 10 years never put anyone on ignore. Finally I had to, it was that or leave for good. And now even with a big ignore list, there is just too much demand for "loyalty".

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #131)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 03:58 PM

137. No ignore list here...

Hence the OP..

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #137)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 04:01 PM

138. You're a better man than I...

I let myself get annoyed by this shit. I know I shouldn't, I can't help it...

Anyway, thanks for the OP.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #128)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 07:08 PM

155. There are some who call for the end of capitalism, or a maximum wage

I think those can be seen as 'far left'. Certainly well to the left of FDR's "right of every businessman, large and small, to trade ...".

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #155)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:15 PM

164. Then there are those of us calling for FDR policies

 

even if we'd like more, but hell, we don't even have politicians supporting AND fighting for FDR policies, instead we have politicians and their functionaries giving LIP SERVICE to those policies while at the same time signing legislation that eliminates them while their apologists make claims that didn't happen. THAT's the problem in a nutshell.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #128)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 08:25 AM

205. And they either don't see it or they are being willingly obtuse.

I truly consider what most people call "far left" these days to be the center. Nothing on that list, to me, is a far left position. But to far too many it is.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 03:44 PM

130. I always thought "far left" and "liberal" were too different things.

To me far left is the extreme fringe of liberalism whereas being a liberal is more "left of center" on social/economic issues. I've always been a mix of moderate/liberal Dem on certain issues but I'd never consider myself far off to the left.

But regardless of what I think about the labels, you're free to feel how you feel OP and not give a damn about what others say so good on you.

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Response to romanic (Reply #130)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 03:46 PM

133. Are you Pro-choice? Anti-War? Pro Education?

Pro Regulations? Pro-Enviroment? Pro-Union?

Welcome to what is now called.. The Far Left.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #133)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 03:52 PM

134. I wouldn't consider

Pro-Regulations/Environment/Union to be fringe issues at all (everybody should support them). I guess the right mainstream media has moved the goal post quite a bit then. :I

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Response to romanic (Reply #134)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 03:54 PM

136. Exactly.. the goal posts have been moved to the point

that almost any left leaning thoughts are considered fringe. Yesterday Scott Walker compared Unions to ISIS.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 03:45 PM

132. The screeching, fallacy laden attacks against the left also can be taken another way.

There's a fight for the future of the party and we're finally gaining ground. Finally winning.

Bad news is the centrist third-wayers who have controlled the party and presided over catastrophic losses during the last 20 years won't leave voluntary until EVERYTHING is gone.

Unfortunately we're nearly there.

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Response to pa28 (Reply #132)


Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 04:38 PM

142. Don't let "Democrats" define themselves against you!

The "left" is neither angry nor unreasonable. They have simply been marginalized by rampant use of "Overton Window" theory to the point where those who are entering the window from the Right feel it's okay to shove people on the Left out of the Democrat party all together.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 04:40 PM

143. Depressed and discouraged? Yes, but mostly it brings into focus that nothing is more

important than breaking their control of the party and rooting them out because it says with extreme certainty where they stand, what their agenda is, and what they want for America which is right wingery and I don't care if they can spell, think tricorn hats are icky, aren't churchy types, and aren't boiling over bigots they are still ideologically venom spitting hateful enemies of everything I believe in POLITICALLY even if they aren't garbage in human flesh.

Being a hateful ass bigot isn't a conservative political orientation, it is being a piece of anti enlightenment, stupid, vile shit. Not being a bigot isn't a liberal political orientation. It is just being a bare minimum, baseline acceptable person.

There is nothing "conservative" about forced ultrasounds or about keeping black people from voting, it is just being monstrous and authoritarian as can be.

You expect someone to be impressed at your far seeing wisdom that creates a new world that you don't hold with state enforced rape via probe? Or that you accept all us are human is special? What do you want a gold star because you blink too?

Shit, it is my opinion that calling one's self liberal over such basic things turns out to actually be a message that all this wicked, radically regressive positions are fucking debatable, things that reasonable people can disagree about, even in the area of acceptable by placing basic humanity as at least in sight of the bleeding edge.

So when we actually ever discuss actual governance folks get all "centrist" and flat out conservative real quickly and all I see is temporarily embarrassed or excluded Republicans and until they are neutralized there can be no effective counter for the idiot, animal cousins that use another letter behind their name.

All they are in the party for that I can see is to assimilate it and/or not be ashamed or create a right wing they can be a part of and that is it. I'm also rubbed the wrong way by people that use their focus issues essentially as hostages demanding go their way or _____ gets fucked over and it is all your fault.

To hell with that! Once a cancer like that takes hold it must be irradiated only then will the remaining healthy surrounding cells be free from that grip so that we can even staunch the bleeding much less move forward with an effective offense against the regressives.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 05:36 PM

151. Amen, bro. I can't believe the delight some folks on these threads take

 

in the puerile smackdown, the cutting remark, the more-liberal-than-thou attack, and the demand that posters with ten years on these boards be BANNED for finally revealing themselves "homophobic" or "misogynistic" or "racist" or whatever identity-politics-speak they apparently violated.

Folks, it's the right wing who we should be dividing and conquering, not each other.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 08:05 PM

158. well said.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 08:33 PM

160. If it differentiates me from them, then it's a badge of honor

 

If by "far left" they mean the kind of left that many of them have either left (usually on the BC gravy train) or they were never a part of for whatever reason, well, that's me.

What slays me isn't their effort at insulting us that obviously is, it's how stupid it is coming from those who claim to be on the left themselves. It's almost like they are arguing that their admitted and obvious rightward movement that attempted insult requires of them, has and will continue to lead towards the moral high ground we old lefties never occupied.

Imagine that -- moving right is into the light and away from what, the darkness of the New Deal...

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 08:53 PM

161. I am with you!

I too would be considered "far left" and get sick of the "this is a democratic website" so get on board bullshit I see far too often.

I am far left, which a few decades ago just meant Democratic. Today we are consider "radicals" when we used to just be mainstream.

I so fucking tired of the "mainstream Dems" telling people like me, and sounds like you, to just follow behind the status quo. Well I'm sorry, but that is contrary to what I believe the Democratic Party is supposed to represent.

I refuse to support a center-right person because it is their rightful turn to be "our" candidate. I want the most progressive candidate possible. I supported Kucinich with all my power and canvassing, but went door-to-door for both Kerry and Obama. I will also support whatever candidate that the Dems put forward. I just wish that we had the balls to throw all of our support behind a Bernie Sanders or an Elizabeth Warren.

The only thing that will keep me from voting third party if we don't get a candidate along their lines is the the Supreme Court. And that just totally sucks! I am afraid we will get a center-right candidate, see Hillary, and nothing will improve for any of us 99%ers. And again they will play us for the fools they believe we are.

My rant is over, but I am still a very proud "Far left zealot".

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #168)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:38 PM

170. Are you OK?

Is there anything I can do to help you? You're so angry. I guess you've been hurt deeply.

Hugs.

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Response to marym625 (Reply #170)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:54 PM

176. The few that stay outraged at the Left are getting completely desperate.

 

Signing up with another account just to tsk tsk Fume...oh my!

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Response to Rex (Reply #176)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:00 PM

178. Just wanted to help the poor boy

What are we if we don't reach out to those in need? Try to heal the scars left by things like, to quote the Rude Pundit, "Negro communist Muslim president who hates America must want to kill all the white people and take their guns in order to burn the Constitution and install a Sharia law caliphate in the country."

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Response to marym625 (Reply #178)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:07 PM

180. I was just reading that!

 

Gun humpers are going crazy over this!

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Response to Rex (Reply #180)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:21 PM

183. YAY!

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Response to Post removed (Reply #168)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:53 PM

175. Wow Fume must be flattered to have someone sign up just to show their admiration!

 

Seriously, you guys just give up trying with your real accounts?

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:42 PM

171. Are you far left? Wear it with pride. Piss em off.

 


Remember where the symbol for the Democratic Donkey comes from.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:57 PM

177. Better to be a far-lefty in the party, than a far-righty.

 

Just remember Fume, those that always talk crap to you also always support the far-right of the party. Be encouraged by the fact that they are losing here with their pathetic propaganda campaign. Nobody is buying it anymore and that has them scared to death.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:18 PM

182. LOL at the earlier name removed post. Looks like you really pissed off someone

 

The only question is was it a sock, or just a typical right winger?

I missed the message before it was deleted, so I can only speculate.

Between this and the "Greenwald is holding a trophy" EPIC thread, it has been hilarious here lately. Watching the freak-outs, that is.


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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:34 PM

186. Don't feel 'depressed and discouraged', is far anything good?

 

Far right or far left are at a fairly fair risk of becoming/being extreme.

Some greed might be motivational, too much becomes rapacity.

Some generosity usually is good, too much can entail spoliation.

May I suggest the humble, unglamorous middle ground of moderation?

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #186)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:43 PM

187. check out post #128

It's really all in the meaning people ascribe to these words. The OP is also correct in pointing out the origins and use of the meme "far left".

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Response to G_j (Reply #187)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:55 PM

188. Oh, OK. But then, it's misleading to use 'far left'

 

If Rush Limbaugh calls you far left, it doesn't make you so.

The only real far left are people like Lenin, Castro, Chavez, to a lesser degree Mitterrand, people who nationalize private property and try to regulate markets.

Otherwise, I suppose most Democrats are Social Democrats, like Blair, Obama, Clinton, Shroeder.

Ed Milliband would probably be around the hedge of being too far left.

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Response to Yorktown (Reply #188)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 10:13 AM

210. Any "regulating markets" is "far left"? Seems extreme to put regulation and confiscation in the same

breath too.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:08 PM

189. Why should Democrats care if you "simply to wash (your) hands of politics"?

Given how much you seem focused on trying to convince people to hate Democrats, it seems a bit silly to me. We'd likely do better without you driving people away.

Polling shows that 80% of liberal Democrats like Obama. How far left do you have to be to think of him as some sort of Republican in disguise?

Regardless, even "far left" isn't an insult. It's a descriptor. Now "whiny unrealistic counterproductive wingnut" might be closer to the mark.

Try not to be that way. Because holding your breath until you get 110% of what you want doesn't help anyone (except the opposition).

- C.D. proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Fri Feb 27, 2015, 11:37 PM

190. K&R

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 12:19 AM

191. Republicans pushed weak Democrats so far right, that nearly everything is "far left" at this point..

in other words, things are going exactly as planned.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)


Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 05:01 AM

203. Buck up.

 

Sorry, but stand up for what you believe.

I know I'm new. But there's a reason the word "ass" is in my username.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 09:56 AM

208. The only place I heard "far left" used so much was on The O'Reilly Factor

I don't care if something is left, right, up, or down but if it is the right thing to do as well as fair, you don't want to want to provide anything job title unconditional support & trust or a sociopath will easily take advantage of it & trust me, those aren't the kind of people you want to providing this benefit of doubt or embracing what they say as absolute truth.

With so much war, unemployment, poverty, & multinationals already directing foreign policy -- being far left doesn't mean you're incorrect or what you believe in doesn't matter. Bush made many decisions that angered me & early on when I saw Obama used Bush-era arguments to argue against giving Bagram detainees the Habaeas Corpus rights to challenge their detention the indifference, anger, & mocking of the far left as so out of touch with there criticism but I got used to it & accepted that as the new normal of the new normal which is a victory for the legacy of politicians but not a victory for those they don't care about. Want your votes & money but it isn't enough to compromise their careers for the desires of sociopaths.

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