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Sun Mar 1, 2015, 07:57 AM

Happy Sunday! I won't be in church today.

I was raised in a VERY religious Catholic family and went to Mass every single week for years. Forced to by my parents until 18 but I still went long after that, out of habit. Then I, finally, woke up. A marriage to a strict Catholic man will do that to you. He turned out to be right-wing nut-job who was demeaning and abusive. When our daughter was 13 we divorced. I had no support from my family because I filed for the divorce and that is a "sin." I spent all my money on a good lawyer and was able to get sole custody of my daughter because he was able to prove my husband was abusive and cheating on me. I hadn't even known about the cheating. Only some feminist-style women friends I knew from work got me through that multi-year period sane.

I tried to do things the "right way" through the Church and all I got was advice to go back to the same sick situation.

I actually tried to go back to church after that bitter experience but I was so turned off by the anti-abortion and homophobic rants I heard in sermons. The two people who helped me most were lesbians. One had an abortion.

I consider myself a spiritual person but it is between me and the great unknown. I raised my daughter as an atheist.

I usually spend Sunday morning early, like today, watching TV, listening to music, checking out DU, surfing the other web sites, drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes in peace on the porch. And I am very much at peace with myself and my God/Goddess/Whatever.

Sorry for the long rant. Maybe this will help someone.

Happy Sunday, fellow DU people!

128 replies, 11053 views

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Reply Happy Sunday! I won't be in church today. (Original post)
Kath1 Mar 2015 OP
monmouth4 Mar 2015 #1
Kath1 Mar 2015 #3
BlueJazz Mar 2015 #2
Kath1 Mar 2015 #6
Lionel Mandrake Mar 2015 #120
StevieM Mar 2015 #121
RKP5637 Mar 2015 #4
Kath1 Mar 2015 #9
merrily Mar 2015 #5
Drahthaardogs Mar 2015 #11
Kath1 Mar 2015 #13
merrily Mar 2015 #14
Kath1 Mar 2015 #17
merrily Mar 2015 #19
Kath1 Mar 2015 #21
happyslug Mar 2015 #117
Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2015 #125
Beartracks Mar 2015 #86
3catwoman3 Mar 2015 #98
Beartracks Mar 2015 #102
Fortinbras Armstrong Mar 2015 #124
Beartracks Mar 2015 #127
Beartracks Mar 2015 #101
Drahthaardogs Mar 2015 #113
Beartracks Mar 2015 #126
Kalidurga Mar 2015 #7
Kath1 Mar 2015 #10
HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #12
Kalidurga Mar 2015 #22
HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #24
Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #36
HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #43
RKP5637 Mar 2015 #16
rurallib Mar 2015 #23
pinboy3niner Mar 2015 #8
madokie Mar 2015 #15
RKP5637 Mar 2015 #18
Kath1 Mar 2015 #20
Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #47
Mariana Mar 2015 #80
Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #107
treestar Mar 2015 #25
peacebird Mar 2015 #28
treestar Mar 2015 #31
peacebird Mar 2015 #32
treestar Mar 2015 #33
Kath1 Mar 2015 #30
Hissyspit Mar 2015 #35
paleotn Mar 2015 #40
treestar Mar 2015 #53
hrmjustin Mar 2015 #26
No Vested Interest Mar 2015 #66
jtuck004 Mar 2015 #27
In_The_Wind Mar 2015 #29
jomin41 Mar 2015 #34
logosoco Mar 2015 #37
Enthusiast Mar 2015 #94
Jamastiene Mar 2015 #38
Kath1 Mar 2015 #49
BeanMusical Mar 2015 #67
Enthusiast Mar 2015 #95
BeanMusical Mar 2015 #104
paleotn Mar 2015 #39
olegramps Mar 2015 #52
paleotn Mar 2015 #57
Enthusiast Mar 2015 #96
LiberalElite Mar 2015 #41
Kath1 Mar 2015 #44
3catwoman3 Mar 2015 #42
Kath1 Mar 2015 #45
libodem Mar 2015 #46
Kath1 Mar 2015 #51
Arugula Latte Mar 2015 #61
libodem Mar 2015 #62
3catwoman3 Mar 2015 #65
Arugula Latte Mar 2015 #88
olegramps Mar 2015 #48
Skidmore Mar 2015 #50
BlueMTexpat Mar 2015 #54
3catwoman3 Mar 2015 #76
truegrit44 Mar 2015 #55
Kath1 Mar 2015 #71
Trillo Mar 2015 #56
roody Mar 2015 #58
LuckyLib Mar 2015 #118
PumpkinAle Mar 2015 #59
Arugula Latte Mar 2015 #60
Kath1 Mar 2015 #73
yallerdawg Mar 2015 #63
Zorra Mar 2015 #64
BeanMusical Mar 2015 #70
azmom Mar 2015 #83
Kath1 Mar 2015 #109
3catwoman3 Mar 2015 #103
BeanMusical Mar 2015 #68
Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2015 #69
BeanMusical Mar 2015 #72
Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2015 #74
BeanMusical Mar 2015 #75
azmom Mar 2015 #84
Kath1 Mar 2015 #108
Populist_Prole Mar 2015 #89
chillfactor Mar 2015 #77
onecent Mar 2015 #78
calimary Mar 2015 #79
jopacaco Mar 2015 #81
Anansi1171 Mar 2015 #82
snacker Mar 2015 #85
Kath1 Mar 2015 #112
Populist_Prole Mar 2015 #87
steve2470 Mar 2015 #90
Name removed Mar 2015 #91
roguevalley Mar 2015 #92
Enthusiast Mar 2015 #93
heaven05 Mar 2015 #97
Arugula Latte Mar 2015 #99
Pendrench Mar 2015 #100
Kath1 Mar 2015 #110
Pendrench Mar 2015 #114
Kath1 Mar 2015 #115
DamnYankeeInHouston Mar 2015 #105
sheshe2 Mar 2015 #106
Kath1 Mar 2015 #111
mackerel Mar 2015 #116
Cha Mar 2015 #119
Hulk Mar 2015 #122
riqster Mar 2015 #123
Kath1 Mar 2015 #128

Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:06 AM

1. The one mistake I made was getting a Catholic lawyer (he was the brother of an in-law). Said I

should try to reconcile first before I went ahead with the divorce. Got rid of him fast...

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Response to monmouth4 (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:19 AM

3. Good for you!

Got rid of him fast... - GOOD!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:09 AM

2. Yes. Sometimes you just know for sure that you're doing the right thing.

 

Good for you and all the best. I quit smoking a few years ago but I'd love to light one up and join you for a talk on the porch.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:26 AM

6. I'd love it, too!

I really want to quit, but those damn cigarettes are the only thing that have kept me sane for a long time.

My daughter smokes despite my MANY warnings against it.

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Response to Kath1 (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 2, 2015, 12:46 AM

120. Kids don't obey parents, they IMITATE them.

If you quit smoking, then maybe your daughter will follow your example.

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Response to Kath1 (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 2, 2015, 01:53 AM

121. I would recommend nicorette gum. It enabled me to quit smoking after 18 years. (eom)

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:20 AM

4. Thanks for sharing! I'm not a religious person, but to me belief in the

whatever is best in ones own head, looking at life and deciding ... For me, I don't like someone else trying to stuff my head with their notions, their god(s), their dogma, there notion of rules and sins. Religion to me is another form of politics and control mechanisms often fraught with opportunists, charlatans, control freaks and often dominate males, often those wanting to leverage power over others, and often rewarded with great sums of $$$$$'s.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:30 AM

9. Thank you.

Most of the turmoil in this world today has to do with religion. Glad I'm not a part of it.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:22 AM

5. According to a Catholic priest I heard on TV, divorce is not a sin, but

re-marriage (or sex with anyone but the first spouse) would be adultery. He said the church looked at divorce as a secular thing, concerned with things like division of property, spousal support and child support.


Just to be clear, I am not preaching what the priest said, just repeating it. Personally, I see nothing wrong with divorce or sex with someone other than the first husband after divorce.

Best wishes to you and yours whatever you believe.

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Response to merrily (Reply #5)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:36 AM

11. You are correct.

Divorce is NOT a sin at all in the Church. It is remarriage after divorce that is considered a sin, and only then, if their is sex inside the marriage. Technically, if you divorce and then remarry but remain celibate, their is no sin. I have heard of cases like this.

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Response to merrily (Reply #5)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:47 AM

13. Not technically a sin.

But when a woman wants the divorce, she's in the wrong.

Thanks for the reply. I don't care about the arcane beliefs at this point.

I appreciate your interest and reply. Peace.

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Response to Kath1 (Reply #13)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:52 AM

14. Again, best wishes to you and yours.

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Response to merrily (Reply #14)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:56 AM

17. Very cool.

Peace and love to you & yours.

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Response to Kath1 (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:58 AM

19. Thank you. More peace and love are good!

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Response to merrily (Reply #19)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:04 AM

21. Yes!

If i have any religion now, it is PEACE AND LOVE. That is what the world really needs!

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Response to Kath1 (Reply #13)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 11:12 PM

117. Actually the Catholic rule on Divorce was aimed at MEN not WOMEN.

 

It starts with Jesus's statement on Divorce:

1 And he left there and went to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan, and crowds gathered to him again; and again, as his custom was, he taught them. 2 And Pharisees came up and in order to test him asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to put her away." 5 But Jesus said to them, "For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6 But from the beginning of creation, `God made them male and female.' 7 `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 10 And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. 11 And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; 12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

http://www.rc.net/wcc/readings/mark10v1.htm


Notice the wording, it does NOT forbid divorce, it prohibits remarriage after a divorce on the grounds the innocent spouse (Generally the woman) will still have sexual needs and the only way those can be satisfied is if she has sex. Thus if a man divorced a wife to marry another, he is causing the first wife to seek sex outside her marriage. Being FORCED to have sex outside of marriage, any such sex is adultery but the blame is on the Husband NOT the wife who did the act.

Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about noon.

7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])

10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

17 “I have no husband,” she replied.

Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”


19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”


Under Jewish and Samaritan law no one could get married more then four times. Thus if you had four husbands die on you, you could NOT marry. This woman was on the outs with her fellow townspeople. In the Middle East you do NOT go to the well at noon, it is to hot. You go in the morning or the evening when it is cooler UNLESS you want to avoid the other people in the village. Thus this woman went to the Well at noon to avoid her fellow Samaritans for she was living with a man outside of marriage for she had been married four time before.

Thus Jesus was NOT hung up over the status of Women and Marriage. He wants to PROTECT women, for they were the ones being divorced by men in search of younger woman. This problem, created by Moses "For your hardness of heart Moses wrote you this commandment" clearly shows the problem was men divorcing women not women divorcing men or women living apart from their husband.

There are Catholics who get hung up on the issue of Divorce, but in many circumstances separating the parties is best for all. Jesus NEVERS say you can NOT divorce, but if you divorce it can NOT be to get a new spouse. It is clear what Jesus was attacking and that was NOT a divorce by a spouse to get away from a bad spouse.

Another cite on Jesus and Divorce:

http://www.thinkingfaith.org/articles/20090825_1.htm

Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+19


You see this over and over again in the New Testament, Jesus want men and women to marry and stay married but he NEVER tells a wife to stay with a husband who beats her. Thus Jesus tells such woman it is perfectly OK with him to leave her husband and live alone (Thus the add on about Eunuchs). The only reason for that add on, is to show that wives can separate from their husbands and as long as they do not take up with another man, that is acceptable to Jesus. On the other hand if a Woman is divorced by her husband (or other wise separated by him do to the actions of the Husband including abuse) any sexual misconduct on her part is the fault of her husband and he bares the sin of Adultery not her.

Just a comment on Divorce within the Catholic Church and how many Catholics get it wrong,

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Response to happyslug (Reply #117)

Mon Mar 2, 2015, 08:16 AM

125. Some more on the subject of Jesus and divorce

I'll start with the basic Old Testament verse on the subject, Deuteronomy 24:1-4, which says,

Suppose a man enters into marriage with a woman, but she does not please him because he finds something objectionable about her, and so he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house; she then leaves his house and goes off to become another man’s wife. Then suppose the second man dislikes her, writes her a bill of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house (or the second man who married her dies); her first husband, who sent her away, is not permitted to take her again to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that would be abhorrent to the Lord, and you shall not bring guilt on the land that the Lord your God is giving you as a possession.


The certificate of divorce was largely a way of protecting the woman. Under the code of Hammurabi, a woman's first husband could come back and re-claim her if her second husband died or divorced her, but this passage in Deuteronomy forbade him to do so. Divorce's main purpose was to permit re-marriage so that a woman would not starve or be forced into prostitution.

The problem is the word "objectionable". The Hebrew can be translated as "sexual immorality," so here the basis for divorce is sexual infidelity. It can also mean the same as the English word. So which is the correct meaning in this passage?

Before continuing, I should also mention Exodus 21-11

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt unfairly with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish the food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out without debt, without payment of money.


While this law initially covered a slave wife in a polygamous marriage, over time the rabbis decided that it also covered wives who were free and marriages that were monogamous. The rabbis decided that this law gave a wife rights to food and clothing (and shelter and so on), as well as sexual intimacy and affection. So if a wife was abused, neglected or abandoned, she has the right to a divorce and subsequent remarriage.

A few decades before Jesus was born, two rabbis, Hillel and Shammai, debated Deuteronomy 24. Hillel noted the text said a man could divorce his wife for "a cause of sexual immorality." Since rabbis believed that every word in Scripture was there for a reason, Hillel decided that this word "cause" must refer to other grounds for divorce besides sexual immorality. Hillel believed a man could leave his wife for any reason: wearing her hair unbound, burning the toast or renting two consecutive chick flicks from Netflix.

Shammai, on the other hand, thought that Deuteronomy 24 only referred to sexual immorality, and that this "any cause" divorce was wrong.

Hillel's "any cause" divorce was popular among Jewish men. It was much easier to get, though it could be more expensive. It is almost certainly what Joseph was thinking of when he considered divorcing Mary "quietly" in Matthew 1:19 -- "quietly" being a technical term. He would graciously refuse to charge her with her infidelity, and get an "any cause" divorce even though he’d still have to pay the bride price.

So apparently, when Jesus mentions divorce in Matthew 19, he is stating his position on the Shammai/Hillel debate. He is not talking about the legitimacy of divorce in general. No rabbi would have asked, "Is it ever lawful for someone to divorce?"; it would have been like asking, "Is it lawful to do what Moses said in the law?"

Jesus sided with Shammai on the interpretation of Deuteronomy 24:1. But Jesus and Paul (and Shammai) would have shared the rabbinic understanding that divorce is regrettable but permissible when the vow of fidelity, provision, or love has been broken and there is no repentance. This would include abuse and abandonment.

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Response to merrily (Reply #5)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 05:04 PM

86. Unless there is an annulment...

... which is achieved after quite a bit of soul-bearing, due process, and paperwork, at the end of which a tribunal will (hopefully) conclude that your marriage is, in fact, over (because it was never, say, "meant to be", and you are free to re-marry and have relations with a new spouse as if you had never been married before.

Interestingly, to get married in the Church to someone who had been married (then divorced) elsewhere, the Church will still require the annulment process for that prior non-Catholic marriage.

======================

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #86)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 06:27 PM

98. By and large, I think annulments...

...are a bunch of BS, especially in a marriage of many years' duration with children involved. If you were drunk and ran away to Vegas and then thought better of it after you sobered up, OK, fine. If you were engaged, sent out wedding invitations, have the photo a;bum from the ceremony - you were married. End of story

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Response to 3catwoman3 (Reply #98)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 06:37 PM

102. Bear in mind, the Church looks at it from a non-secular viewpoint.

Were the people married? Of course, in the secular world. Was it "valid" from the standpoint of "blessed by God" or whatever? I think that's where the question comes in. I'm not sure I understand how the decision is made. From what I do understand, however, abandonment, abuse, cheating, things like that, can be evidence to the Church that the marriage wasn't truly a Marriage or else those things wouldn't have been happening.

==================

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #102)

Mon Mar 2, 2015, 08:05 AM

124. Basically, they have to find a "flaw" in the marriage

Some of which are rather abstruse (see "Pauline Privilege" and "Petrine Privilege", but the whole thing is basically dishonest. The person seeking the annulment is basically trying to pretend that the marriage never really happened.

Let me tell you of a couple of contemporaneous historical annulments requests, those of Henry VIII of England and his sister Margaret in the 16th century.

Henry and Margaret's father, Henry VII, arranged a political marriage between his eldest son, Arthur, and Catherine of Aragon. A few months after the wedding, Arthur died. The king wanted both to maintain the political alliance with Spain and to keep the dowry that Catherine brought (over a million in today's currency, which would have had to be repaid out of the Privy Purse). So he decided to marry his second son, Henry, to Catherine.

There was a problem: Under Church marriage law, one cannot marry one's deceased spouse's sibling. However, this could be got round with a dispensation. So King Henry went to the Archbishop of Canterbury, Warham, to get the dispensation. Warham was then in a political fight with the King and refused to grant it; but Henry twisted his arm, and Warham gave in. Henry then applied to the Vatican for their approval -- Pope Julius II rubber stamped the dispensation and the fullness of time Henry and Catherine were married.

Twenty-some years later, it was obvious that Catherine, now in menopause, was not going to give Henry the son he so desperately craved. (Henry wanted a son because the last time an English king, Henry I, died with only a daughter to follow him, Matilda, there was a civil war.) The incest that Henry was committing was preying on his mind -- that he had fallen in love with the young and beautiful Anne Boleyn was, of course, quite irrelevant.

Recall that Henry VII had pressured Archbishop Warham to get the dispensation for his son's betrothal to Catherine. Church marriage law says that if any party to the marriage is acting under duress, the marriage is void. So Henry VIII requested an annulment on the grounds that the dispensation was improperly given.

However, Catherine did not want her marriage annulled. She claimed that she loved Henry; a dubious claim at best, since Henry did not treat her well. It is far more likely that Catherine did not want her daughter Mary to lose her place as Henry's only legitimate child. After all, should Henry remarry and have a son, this son would take precedence over Mary as Henry's heir. (One of the great "what if"s of English history is "what if Mary had been a boy?"

So, Catherine counter-attacked on two fronts: One based in Church marriage law, and the other purely political. In Church marriage law, in order for a marriage to be valid, two things must happen. The first is an exchange of vows before witnesses, and there was no question that this happened when Catherine married Arthur. The second is that the marriage must be consummated. Catherine claimed that she and Arthur had never consummated their marriage. Thus, the dispensation was irrelevant, and her marriage to Henry was, in fact, her first marriage.

This claim should have gone nowhere. First, Church marriage law makes the presumption that a married couple will have intercourse unless it can be proven otherwise. Second, under Church marriage law, the burden of proof would have been on Catherine, and the operative word is "proof". I'm sure that 16th century divorce lawyers and judges knew just as well as their 21st century counterparts that all parties in a divorce probably lie. Catherine's unsupported word should not have sufficed, and at the time she made this claim, she was not a virgo intacta. Thus, she had no support for her claim.

Something else in Church marriage law is that dubious claims about the validity of the marriage are to be dismissed in favor of the validity of the marriage.

However, her other point of attack depended on her nephew Charles -- King of Spain, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Naples -- to oppose the annulment. Charles was happy to support his aunt, since he disliked Henry both personally and politically. Charles and Henry had entered an alliance against France which Henry broke at the Field of the Cloth of Gold, and Charles felt that Henry had betrayed him. What concerned the Pope was that in 1527, Naples and the Papal States had a war, which Clement lost. Some of Charles' troops sacked Rome. Clement did not want a rerun of that war, so he took Catherine's claim of non-consummation seriously. There were Papal Delegates, special commissions of enquiry and so on. Basically, Clement was stalling.

Finally, when Henry discovered that Anne Boleyn was pregnant, he forced Clement's hand. He pushed through some laws in Parliament, one saying that marriage questions could be settled locally, another saying that all English clergy owed their first allegiance to the crown and a third saying that the Peter's Pence collection (an annual collection in each parish going directly to the Vatican) and the Annates (essentially a tax on Church properties that also went to the Vatican) should go to the Exchequer instead of to Rome. Clement was Not Amused, and decreed against Henry's annulment.

Thus, the actual reason for Clement's action was politics and money.

Now, on to Margaret. Henry VII married her off to King James IV of Scotland. For some reason, James invaded England in 1513, and was met by English troops at the Battle of Flodden. Flodden was an overwhelming victory for the English, and James was killed in the battle. His body was seen by quite a few people, both English and Scots, who knew him at least by sight; he was buried on the battlefield.

James' son became king as James V, but since he was only two, a council of regency was set up. Margaret was one of the regents, and another was Archibald Douglas, the Earl of Angus. In order to solidify his political position, Angus persuaded Margaret to marry him.

This was not a happy marriage. To give just one example, in 1520, Angus attempted to enter Edinburgh at the head of some troops, and was taken under fire by artillery and infantry under the personal command of his wife.

In 1527, Margaret seized on an unfounded rumor that James IV had not died at Flodden, but had regained consciousness, dug himself out of his grave, and recovered from his wounds. However, James had not returned to Scotland, but rather made a secret pilgrimage to the Holy Land. Nevertheless, James was supposed to return to Scotland at any moment. This rumor, of course, is just as credible as the one that Elvis Presley is still alive.

Margaret sent in a petition to Pope Clement for an annulment of her marriage on the grounds that her first husband was actually still alive. Cardinal Beaton, the Archbishop of St Andrews, who loathed Angus as much as Margaret did, supported the petition. Angus, who also wanted out of the marriage, raised no objection -- indeed, he suggested that a better ground for the annulment might be that he had been betrothed as a young man.

In any case, Margaret got her annulment, realized that her first husband was dead, and promptly married someone else.

So, Henry VIII was denied an annulment even though he had solid grounds, and Margaret was granted one on flimsy grounds. It was all political in both cases.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #124)

Mon Mar 2, 2015, 09:04 PM

127. An interesting read. Thanks! n/t

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #86)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 06:32 PM

101. Sorry, here's a better description of annulment.

"An annulment is a declaration that a particular marriage, for one reason or another, was not valid (i.e., is null). Such declarations are issued by Church authorities after the circumstances of a marriage have been investigated and sufficient grounds for nullity have been discovered. If a marriage is found to be null, the parties are not actually married to each other and so are free to marry other people."

-- from Catholic Answers magazine, March-April 2015

The italics are mine.

This actually supports the Church teaching that marriages are indeed insoluble, because, in the eyes of the Church, a "null" marriage is never actually a true marriage in the first place.

=============================

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Response to Beartracks (Reply #86)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:21 PM

113. That is not what an annulment is.

An annulment means the marriage was invalid from the beginning. The Catholic Church validates all marriages, so yes, in your latter case an annulment is required; however, if it was not a Catholic marriage performed on baptized Catholics under the roof of a church, the annulment is merely procedural and will not require a tribunal.

I have been through the process I know more about it than I ever cared too. Glad it is over.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #113)

Mon Mar 2, 2015, 08:46 PM

126. You are correct. Here's why I had it wrong...

1) I was tired. lol And...

2) I've also been through the process with my spouse, who had two prior marriages: one in the Baptist church, and one in the Catholic church. We had to go through both the procedural AND the tribunal approach, and I was conflating the two.

Oh -- And I did re-post a more accurate description about the validity issue. I realized my original sounded completely silly. You are spot on.

===============================

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:29 AM

7. Religion is the greatest hoax on earth

church is a waste of time unless it's just a way to socialize, but I can't imagine deliberately going to a place where people engage in shared delusions. That being said I am not a complete atheist so I don't identify as such. I don't pretend to know how things came about or how things are going to be. All I know is from what I have seen, have been told, and what I have read, people who think they are privy to some kind of divine soul that gives them extra knowledge are fooling themselves.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:34 AM

10. I agree.

I consider myself agnostic. Daughter is totally atheist and I'm cool with that. She is very together in her life.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:40 AM

12. Delusion or "willful suspension of disbelief"? Later is an important part of appreciating fictions

And fictions aren't always devoid of morality or meaningful social message.

A strong sense of sharing, empathy etc can also be gained by a group that collectively experiences such a thing...

I am pretty sure that I wasn't the only person moved and choked up at the end of "Private Ryan".


Yes, there are folks willing to exploit that to have gold plated faucets on their toilets. But as a gregarious animal Homo sapiens also has needs to connect to groups, and even artificial experiences such as theater and church sermons by a snake oil salesman can meet that need.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:07 AM

22. I agree with that for the most part

even someone as solitary as I am will at the very least look for people to talk to online. I chat at the grocery store or when I go on other errands. I am that weird person who will talk to people at bus stops as well. However, I think mixing morality in a setting where another person is given moral authority over a group of people is a horrible idea and that idea has been prone to more abuse than the human mind can fathom.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #22)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:27 AM

24. Critical thinking suggests tellers tell stories that serve both the audience -and- themselves.

Actors and authors make money, gain celebrity and social power telling stories, so do members of the shaman/priest class.

That humans are such willing audiences of such things suggest it is part of our natures, I suspect perhaps a consequence of our rather remarkable capacity to learn not only from firsthand direct experience but just watching the actions of others or even through listening to stories...

Ritual story-telling takes place among humans everywhere they occur.

It's pretty easy to speculate a relatively short path the emergence, and social acceptance, of caring empathetic story-teller shaman capable of moral lessons, anxiety reducing distractions, placebo effect, and a bit of truly functioning folk-remedy.

But not being an anthropologist anything I told you would itself be a 'just-so' story to provide an answer to an unknown needing an explanation.



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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #24)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:59 AM

36. Of course most actors and playwrights never make a living but continue to work.

 

Another very key difference is that the theater deals in 'a willing suspension of disbelief' while religion deals in and seeks an actual and literal belief in the things is it saying. Big, big difference between saying 'imagine with us' and 'believe what we tell you unquestioned'. Big. Giant difference. The Church claims to be truth, the theater openly says it is an illusion.
One lies, the other does not. The two are not the same.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #36)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:32 AM

43. Most "believers" go on telling stories and never make a living at it either...

I do agree that people can get so involved in the role-play that they lose track of it being role-play. This is a problem with acquired learning, we can learn things which aren't true. And the role of religion is deeply rooted and has established mechanisms and positions in society that impose upon our sense of reality. It seems that over millennia these social constructs have achieved and maintained a 'too big to not believe' status for some. But certainly over the millennia the constructs also achieved and maintained a capacity to provide socially useful things for many people even many people who have maintained a capacity for doubt = disbelief

Across seven decade span of my life, I've only known a few people who had formal clerical roles. All the people I knew had doubts about faith. I suspect that may be common. Apparently, even now sainted Mother Theresa, had deep and persistent doubts most of her life. Yet, the institution provided a role in which she did socially acceptable good works.

Of course there are people who exploit human anxieties and various human needs of others. We find them in almost every path of life. Telling stories, trying to get us to respond as if they are true. We call such deceits lies. And lying is done by people from drug dealers to presidents. Yes, there are also degrees of badness for lies. Santa Clauz, the Easter Bunny, Gaia, Turtles (all the way down)... are certainly in a different category than lies that set us up for predation by politicians, used car salesman or Jim and Tammy Baker.

Is our learning capacity simply hackable providing access to role playing exploiters, or does our learning capacity lead us into participating in a great role-playing of human existence because that role-playing provides significant benefits?


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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:55 AM

16. Yep! Agree with you so much! n/t

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:12 AM

23. May be a hoax but it sure is a money maker

not only in separating people from their money, but in taking control of the reins of government that can control the flow of money - especially to themselves.

So keeping that spigot open and flowing is of utmost importance to those who understand the reasons.

I too am a reformed catholic. The further removed from my upbringing I get, the more amazed I am at the structure the Church built over the millennia to keep their followers in line. Marriage rules are just a part of controlling the peons and especially keeping that money in certain hands

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:29 AM

8. The Church of DU had me at Sunday LOLcats

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:53 AM

15. I was baptized before I was out of grade school

Southern Baptist. By the time I made it to 14 yo I had realized that the church wasn't anything it was purported to be. A bunch of liars and two shoes. I haven't been to church since. I'm 66 yo btw.
I raised me since then to be Atheist
Peace


I like me this way too

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Response to madokie (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:56 AM

18. K&R!!!!! n/t

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Response to madokie (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:59 AM

20. I like you as an atheist, too!

Above all, Peace!

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Response to madokie (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:45 AM

47. I was married...

to the child of a SouBap preacher. That entire family was so crazy and dysfunctional there no way they could be living the teachings of Christ.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #47)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 04:18 PM

80. Maybe they were following the teachings of Christ.

If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. Luke 14: 26

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Matthew 10: 35-37

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. Matthew 19: 29

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Response to Mariana (Reply #80)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 07:41 PM

107. Yup, that.

Thanks, I never knew about those passages. I thought Christ was about love and peace. I guess fool me once.....

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:28 AM

25. Does your daughter have visitation with her father?

Are you trying to cut that relationship off out of revenge? Sounds like it.

Further, what does Catholicism have to do with it? There are cheaters and abusers in every religion and among atheists.

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Response to treestar (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:33 AM

28. Abusive relationship - might not be healthy for the daughter to see him? I trust the mothers

judgement on what is best for the child.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #28)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:40 AM

31. Why? You are hearing one side of the story.

Every divorced spouse calls the other "abusive." Cheating means zip these days. Unless there is a protection order on the daughter's behalf, the daughter was not abused. Even if the mother was actually abused, there might be supervised visitation. The court decides. Don't add to this idea that the mother gets 100 percent say. That is no longer the case.

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Response to treestar (Reply #31)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:43 AM

32. I never called my ex hubby abusive. Good grief. And nowhere does she say anything about visitation

Just that she got sole custody.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #32)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:47 AM

33. Sole custody sounded like it was due to being "abusive" and his cheating

And there is no way his cheating entered into it.

Nice you didn't do it, though, it's rare enough. Though it is likely that at the time you had your moments - people get over it after a while. However, when it is happening, even the cheater will have his/her excuses and claims that the other party is the worst person in the world and deserved to be cheated on and they just couldn't help it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:38 AM

30. Yes, she does.

The relationship soured a while back when he got drunk and called her a slut. She's 25 years old now. She can do as she wants.

They are still in touch.

I'm in touch with him, also. We get along now. We just don't agree on anything.

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Response to treestar (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:58 AM

35. Oh, for crying out loud...

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Response to treestar (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:15 AM

40. Are you serious? Give it a rest for crying out loud.

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Response to paleotn (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 11:00 AM

53. Had a divorce?

Blamed the lawyers? And the judges and the system?

We all have different experiences. You'd think it would be good to learn from them.

And what does religion have to do with it?

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:29 AM

26. I am skipping church today because we are having a snow and ice storm today.

 

If the weather was good I would be in church.

If you feel that church is not for you then you should not go, and I am sorry for the grief you went through.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #26)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 02:53 PM

66. Snow and ice - the weather forecast several days ago-

warned me that Sunday would be a no-go out day.
So I went to Mass Sat. afternoon, and happily slept in this morning.

People- and grown-up children- will make their own decisions about how best to lead their lives.
I was blessed to have a spouse faithful and kind, though not everyone does.
I no longer have grief re my children's choices, knowing that though spouse and I are imperfect, we did the best we could for our kids.

Peace to all who make their life choices with the best intentions and knowledge available to them.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:31 AM

27. I am very sorry you have been led down this road...

 

But check out vaping, maybe you can set the cigs aside. I smoked nearly two packs a day for over 40 years, and walked away from it with those. Now zero nicotine, just scented stuff. Food tastes much better too.

As far as religion goes, though, yeah.

I was raised Southern Baptist (bet you can still sing the dang songs you haven't heard in years as well), got away from it via college and some other experiences, but my wife was raised Catholic, and is still caught up in it.

Scary, much of what that religion stuff has become.

Thank you for posting.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)


Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 09:51 AM

34. horrible thing to do to a child

I endured 16 years of catholic schools, including 8 under jesuits. It took only another year to abandon it all but it negatively affected my whole life (twitch,twitch).

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:04 AM

37. I just called my "devoutly Catholic" mother (almost 80) to see if she is

braving the cold and snow to go to church this morning. Yes, she is. She does live close to her church and the roads are pretty flat.
She tried very hard to raise my sister and I in the church, but it just didn't stick. I think by the time I was 7 I was seeing it was sort of silly compared to what else I was learning about the world.
My mom raised us as a single mom. My dad was not Catholic so I don't know if their marriage "counted" in the churches eyes. My mom didn't agree with the church on birth control, so that made it easier for my sister and I to question things and get out.
I guess church is a nice social thing, but unless a church is doing a lot for the community, I don't know why they don't pay taxes.
I find beauty and love and amazement in the world without god or a church. I am glad I was able to grow and think for myself. Churches don't seem to like that much. It seems to me they don't really like "free thought" and I can't imagine life without that! I am glad I raised my kids without church or telling them what to think about a god. My sister and I felt being told as young kids we were born sinners was not a really nice way to start out in life.


On another note: try e cigs! I have been using them for 3 years after smoking cigarettes for 33 years. They are amazing. All the nicotine and none of the guilt!

Enjoy your day! Peace!

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Response to logosoco (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 06:19 PM

94. We could have a good conversation.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:11 AM

38. I'm still trying to come to terms with my time in Christian school at a

Southern Baptist school/church. I may never be right after some of those experiences, but it's ok. If that is what is considered "normal" and "right." I'll be abnormal and left. That's a blessing, not a curse. The curse would be trying to bend my mind to fit some of the messed up stuff I was expected to endure. I'm so glad I don't have to go to that school any more. Something as simple as that is a huge relief.

Happy Sunday to you too.

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #38)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:48 AM

49. You understand perfectly!

Glad you became your own person, free of the dogma.

Happy Sunday and peace always!

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Response to Jamastiene (Reply #38)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 03:20 PM

67. "abnormal and left"

"Normal" is so overrated.

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Response to BeanMusical (Reply #67)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 06:21 PM

95. "Outside the box."

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #95)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 07:01 PM

104. +1

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:11 AM

39. I can relate, though from the other side of the Christian spectrum....

...I was raised Southern Baptist, and attendance was mandatory until I went off to college. After that I still attended occasionally, like you, out of habit, but mainly due to the guilt heaped upon me by my family if I didn't. After awhile, I just couldn't stand the bullshit anymore and dropped the SBC and eventually all organized faiths. My spouse still considers herself spiritual, but I'm agnostic simply because I don't know, no one else knows either and the evidence for such things gets more tenuous with every passing year.

The Baptist church I attended as a teenager and young adult eventually morphed into a mega-Baptist church. It then imploded due to internal strife over money and control. I like to think it was from the weight of all the bullshit they spewed for decades. Now the once shiny mega-Baptist church building belongs to the local Catholic diocese. How's that for irony. Now if I could only figure out how to generate electricity from my Mom spinning in her grave, we'd have that fossil fuel problem licked!

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Response to paleotn (Reply #39)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:59 AM

52. That is damn funny about generating electricity.

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Response to olegramps (Reply #52)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 12:03 PM

57. If you only knew my Mom. I love her more than life....

....and she was one of the best mothers I could have ever hoped for, but in her eyes, her church could do no wrong and everyone else was going straight to hell. She firmly believe that. She wasn't in your face about it, but there was no doubt where she stood on anything. It's wonderful beyond words that she didn't live to see her church implode and the RC diocese take over the properties.

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Response to paleotn (Reply #39)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 06:24 PM

96. Oh, baby! Great post!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:16 AM

41. I was raised RC too -

12 years of RC school, mass every Sunday or tell them why on Monday (they took attendance in grammar school). I left while I was still in high school and never looked back. I was turned off by the jargon, the dogma and the hierarchy (did I leave anything out? LOL) Although, when it was still legal to ask what's your religion on employment applications I still filled in RC for years. It took a long time to work it out of my identity. Now it's just a memory.

Good for you. More proof that there is life outside of conventionality.

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Response to LiberalElite (Reply #41)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:39 AM

44. Thank you.

I re-invented myself after divorce and leaving the Church. Got rid of the contact lenses and went back to my glasses. Got rid of the cute dresses and went back to my jeans. Took up smoking again (big mistake). Got much more involved in Progressive politics. Got a lot more mouthy. I'm much more comfortable as divorced-feminist-peacenik hippie than I ever was as Catholic-suburban-subservient wife. Catholicism was a big negative in my life.

Loving life.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:31 AM

42. For the past 3 years, I have been...

...participating with a Unitarian Universalist congregation, after several decades of no group spiritual activity. The members there are a very impressive group of people in terms of their dedication to a wide variety of social and ecological endeavors. Many are atheists, as was the minister who recently retired after 25 years with this church.

A great many of the congregation members refer to themselves as "recovering Catholics."

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Response to 3catwoman3 (Reply #42)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:42 AM

45. Cool.

I often refer to myself as a recovering catholic.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:44 AM

46. We are all in the

Church of What's Happening Now.

We may commune with the Divine from where ever we are.

We don't need no stinkin' church.

Peace.

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Response to libodem (Reply #46)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:52 AM

51. Right On!!!

Peace.

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Response to libodem (Reply #46)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 01:16 PM

61. I go outside, I see a cluster of towering, magnificent trees.

 

I'm in Oregon. The trees really are spectacular.

Nature is church enough for me. I don't need any silly supernatural tales to make me appreciate my god, nature.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #61)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 01:24 PM

62. An attitude

Of gratitude. It makes us better humans.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #61)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 02:52 PM

65. Are the trees...

...the right height? (Couldn't resist.)

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Response to 3catwoman3 (Reply #65)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 05:36 PM

88. They are!

 



Except in windstorms...Then I wish they were all about four feet tall!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:48 AM

48. When ever I have doubts about my scepticism I just reread Twain's "Letters from Earth."

It is rather startling how well informed he was on science when he wrote it in 1909. There is nothing like humor to destroy the ridiculous notions that are pushed by ignorant preachers and are accepted as "Gospel Truths."

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:51 AM

50. Appreciate your story and

how similar it is to my own. I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church and married into an Islamic family in a country of fundamentalist traditions. Have no use for fundamentalism or any traditions outlined that are approaching fundamentalism. I evolved over the years to where I considered myself agnostic but have gradually arrived at atheist even though I love reading the about the history of religions, particularly the oldest ones. My children were raised in neither tradition and are both atheists. My daughter and son in law are raising their kids as atheists while teaching them that there are people who hold lots of other beliefs.

We spend our Sundays similarly, minus the smoking part. My life has become so much simpler and my inner sense of morality and empathy serve me better than any professions in a church where people step out afterward and do not seem to be able to live up to the expectations that are set for them.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 11:12 AM

54. I too am a recovering Catholic.

I am also divorced (after 13 years of marriage), but after a time married again and have been so happily for 33+ years. I wish you and your daughter well and hope that you will both find happy and fulfilling lives.

It is not so much the idea of religion or church that bothers me. There is much that I admire in Catholic teachings - especially those that are universally reflected in other religions that deal with loving one another, respecting one another and treating others as one wishes to be treated. What I dislike are petty points of dogma, specifics on how women are/should be subservient to men, etc. I loathe the idea in any religion that one is somehow superior to others who do not follow that religion.

I believe that human beings have a spiritual essence that needs to be nourished and that is why so many humans search for purpose and reasons in religion. Others find their purposes and reasons in a philosophy dissociated from religion. So long as that religion or philosophy empowers them and improves their lives and the lives of those around them, I have no problem with it. Indeed, I sincerely respect those who actually practice the universal precepts noted above. Jimmy Carter and Bill Moyers, for example, are two very strong role models to emulate.

Participation in communal gatherings, whether they be church or similar services, should help humans to reinforce social ties and encourage common ground, not division. One should attend because one chooses to, not because one is obliged to.

While I was raised Catholic because my father's family were Catholic, my mother's family were Protestant, representing nearly every type from mainstream to wildly evangelical. It seemed to me nonsense from the get-go that my father's side believed that my Protestant relatives were all going to hell and that my mother's side believed that I and my Catholic relatives were all going to hell. With a few exceptions (not dependent on religious label but on individual character), we were all good human beings and tried to be kind to one another. Does hell even exist, after all?

The idea of any deity that includes or excludes individuals merely on the basis of a religious label is totally abhorrent. The idea of any individual who would govern a nation-state based on such precepts of inclusion or exclusion is equally abhorrent. It is to be avoided at all costs. This is the crux of my antipathy to organized religion generally and especially towards those who do not understand that there must be boundaries between church and state.

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Response to BlueMTexpat (Reply #54)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 04:04 PM

76. Well said.

Particularly your third and final paragraphs. Thank you for stating so clearly what I have thought so many times.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 11:48 AM

55. Thank you so much for a great

Sunday "Sermon" You have made my Sunday!
You have just wrote my life story.........from 18 years of being forced to not miss a mass, and just going thru the motions and being brainwashed to believe this was just expected of me. That carried on to raising 4 children in the Catholic church. I suffered pretty extreme physical and mental abuse from my lst husband. When I later married my second husband (who was also Catholic) we decided this stuff is total bullshit and have not been back for 40 years, all of my children are basically atheist now also.

Contrary to what many of my now in-laws (my second husband died and I am remarried to a non believer) who are way out pentecostal think, I am a good person and not one bit afraid I will go to hell as they tell me. I love the fact that I am a free thinker!

You have made my day with your post and I wish you peace and love to the max!

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Response to truegrit44 (Reply #55)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 03:36 PM

71. We are on the same page!

'total bullshit" - yeah, pretty much.

Quitting the Church felt very liberating to me and sounds like you felt the same way.

Glad you enjoyed the 'sermon."

PEACE AND LOVE!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 11:55 AM

56. I'm sorry you had that experience.

But it sounds like the outcome was good.

Happy Sunday back to you!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 12:04 PM

58. Sleeping in on Sunday is still a delicious pleasure.

I was a preacher's kid, but stopped going when I was 20.

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Response to roody (Reply #58)

Mon Mar 2, 2015, 12:24 AM

118. We call it the Church of St. Mattress.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 01:01 PM

59. Thank you and Happy Sunday to you

may you continue to spend your Sunday's in a way that brings you happiness.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 01:14 PM

60. I'm glad you escaped both the shackles of your marriage and the shackles of religion.

 

I will go so far as to say the Catholic Church was largely created for the purpose of stomping down women. And it has been been incredibly effective at doing this the world over, for centuries. The sooner people reject this institution en masse, the better off the world will be. Same goes for the other major religions.

Glad you are in a better space now!

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #60)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 03:43 PM

73. MUCH better space now!

When you believe to your core, as I do, that people should be free to love anyone they choose and that contraception and abortion are basic rights, the Catholic Church just seems like an outdated institution that is just in people's way, especially females.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 01:36 PM

63. One piece of wisdom in the bible.

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."


Religion is all about imposing control over our behavior. Someone is always trying to find some way to get you to do what they want. Always has been, always will be.

Sounds like you have found the real freedom of/from religion.

Happy Sunday, Kath1!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 01:42 PM

64. Brain Damage...

The lunatic is in my head
The lunatic is in my head
You raise the blade, you make the change
You re-arrange me 'till I'm sane
You lock the door
And throw away the key
There's someone in my head but it's not me.

And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear
You shout and no one seems to hear
And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes
I'll see you on the dark side of the moon



I started rebelling early, well before I was ten yrs. old; the beatings from the nuns made me realize that I never wanted to be like them. I still frequently analyze my thoughts to ensure it's me, and not Sister Mary Elefunt, motivating my behavior. It's a lifetime process, wiping away the indoctrination and brainwashing.

There's someone in my head, and I know it's me.

Life is fun, and beautiful.


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Response to Zorra (Reply #64)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 03:26 PM

70. I love that song!

Glad that you rebelled from those horrible people.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #64)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 04:52 PM

83. Just saw an episode of "House of Cards"

Where Francis spits on a figure of Jesus Christ. I'm having fun with my hubby that was raised Catholic. He can't believe what he just saw. Hahahaha.

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Response to azmom (Reply #83)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 07:45 PM

109. LOL!

Seen that, too!

"He can't believe what he just saw. Hahahaha."

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Response to Zorra (Reply #64)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 06:38 PM

103. My husband went to Catholic schools...

from KG all the way thru high school. He often speaks of "Sister Mary Godzilla." He hasn't attended a mass in decades, and is quite agnostic now.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 03:23 PM

68. Thank you!

And you can rant as much as you want!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 03:25 PM

69. I gave up on Catholicism when I was 12 and a priest gave the "God Works in Mysterious Ways"

 

runaround.

My wife went the whole course. All the way through Catholic School with the nuns and rulers. She swallowed her distaste at the corruption, misogyny, and bigotry until she was about 70. She shopped around and is now a Quaker.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #69)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 03:42 PM

72. Catholic on paper. I was never forced to go to church by my parents.

I consider myself lucky for that. Ended up being anticlerical but don't have the knee-jerk reaction to attack all the priests, nuns etc when they are not doing shitty things. When they do I'm very nasty. Sorry for your wife having to go through all this. My parents did too and its probably why I was spared. Heard a lot of horror stories.

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Response to BeanMusical (Reply #72)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 03:49 PM

74. Fortunately, my parents were "Easter Catholics".

 

And, I was let off the hook even for that.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #74)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 03:54 PM

75. +1

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #74)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 04:57 PM

84. We were Easter Catholic.

Until my 10 year old daughter declared to us she was an atheist. We said cool and now we are atheist.

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Response to azmom (Reply #84)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 07:41 PM

108. Very cool story.

Sounds like a bright little girl!

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #69)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 05:47 PM

89. I've always hated that trite line too

i see it used so much by religoius sorts, so glib and without demur.

If something good happened to them or they got lucky or avoided catastrophe, then god hooked them up.

If the opposite happened, then "he works in mysterious ways".

What a load of crap!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 04:05 PM

77. I did go to church today...

and I enjoyed every minute...I attend a non-denominational church with a superb minister and his beautiful wife by his side.....We have a very diverse population and great folks....love it there!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 04:10 PM

78. I don't believe in organized religeon...they are so busy asking for

10% of your pay...my husband was a divorced catholic ...went back to church after he promised God he would if he didn't lose his legs...and one day he started going. He didn't ask, and I didn't offer...but after they sent him a packet asking for $400 a month from us to build a new
church...he said bye bye....None of the 3 services were EVER FULL.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 04:12 PM

79. Lots of us "recovering Catholics" here!

My kids were baptized Presbyterian. MY idea. My husband is a Presbyterian, and had not lobbied for this. It came about when we learned our first baby was gonna be female. I worried about - "what if she has 'THE Gift'?" As in - the gift of ministry, the gift of "THAT" vocation. If she did, I knew she wouldn't be able to go ANYWHERE with it in the Catholic Church. The glass ceiling for women in the Catholic Church starts at about 12 inches up off the ground - if it's even that "high". Even this new pope, Pope Francis, is still heartbreakingly backward and closed-minded about advancing women in the church beyond the nice little patronizing pat on the head and "oh YOU can be the helper, but you can't play one of the key roles and you sure as hell can't vote for anything. Off to the Ladies' Auxiliary for YOU!"

So this Catholic has Presbyterian children. So be it. And they're not regular church-goers - probably because we haven't been, either. But I don't believe the only "correct" or "properly sanctioned" or "approved" situation for prayer is in formalized church.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 04:21 PM

81. No more for me on Sunday's either

I went to Catholic schools for 16 years. Overall, I received a good education. My religious education was all new testament (I know next to nothing off the old testament) and I internalized it. That is why I became a Democrat. Take care of your fellow man, treat others fairly philosophy.
My parents were very worried about baptism when my oldest son was born. I figured that I would do it (path of least resistance) so I called the local church. The priest told me that I needed to donate $200 in the collection before he would perform the sacrament. My son is now in his mid 30s so it was a lot of money then. If you believe this stuff, he had just put a price on my son's immortal soul. Shortly after this, my sister-in-law got her marriage annuled after 2 children and her boyfriend got his first marriage annuled. He had been married 3 times but only the first counted. They greased palms from PA to Rome to make that happen because they wanted a church wedding. I was done with the church. I kept some of the teachings.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 04:30 PM

82. Happy Sunday!-nt

:clap

http://m.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 05:04 PM

85. As for your daughter...

http://www.opednews.com/articles/If-You-Want-Well-Adjusted-by-Daily-Kos-Religion-150218-947.html?show=votes

"Far from being dysfunctional, nihilistic and rudderless without the security and rectitude of religion, secular households provide a sound and solid foundation for children, according to Vern Bengston, a USC professor of gerontology and sociology. ...

...Instead of finding dysfunction or moral decay, he was surprised to find strong family bonds, emotional closeness between parents and their children, and high moral and ethical standards, which the parents had taken great care to instill in their children, using rational means."

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Response to snacker (Reply #85)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 07:59 PM

112. Thank you!

I'm amazed how well-adjusted she is.

I figure I must have done something right!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 05:31 PM

87. My mother was a little batty when it came to church attendance

Catholic "on paper" as someone upthread so astutely put it. What was batty was we went to all different kinds of churches: baptist, dutch reformed, methodist, catholic. Seemed like her view was that "church" in and of itself, was somehow "good for us" and hoped it would somehow rub off on us and make us better. Strange.

Toward the beginning of my teen years we became more "easter/lent" christians but sunday school was still compulsory until we had confirmation. It was so obvious to me and my brothers and sisters that our cumpulsory attendance had more to do with my parent's desire for a kid-free sunday morning than it ever had to do with faith.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 05:49 PM

90. so sorry to hear of your bad experiences!

I'm glad things are so much better for you now.

I was raised Episcopalian. That's very similar to Catholic. We went every damn Sunday unless I was on a Boy Scout camping trip. Both parents were very religious but not of the fire-and-brimstone variety, so they were tolerable.

I no longer go there. Last church I went to was a Methodist one. I know the Bible says you have to worship with other believers, but meh on that for me. Long story short, I'm probably one or two steps away from being an atheist, but I find comfort in the church. I would never dream of imposing my values on others, but it works for me. I'm just too secular-minded to totally buy into it. I also highly value science and the scientific method.

I strongly believe in doing my best to practice my faith through action, and not just through lip service. Way too many "Christians" talk a good game, then fall way short in action. I'd rather keep my mouth shut and "just do it".

Anyway, best wishes to you in your spiritual and earthly journeys!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)


Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 05:55 PM

92. I believe that God is love and wouldn't

want you to be unhappy. You did the right thing and that makes you a hero. You could have stayed forever unhappy.

Now you have to be happy. I don't believe that the strictures of man apply to God and since God is love He is VERY pleased with you fighting the chains and getting free. Be happy, live your life the way you want and KNOW that a god of love is on your side.

Your family has the practice down pat but have missed the whole point of the content. The real content: Love, love, love.

I hug you tight.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 06:12 PM

93. Thank you for sharing that with us, Kath1.

There are millions of us—disgruntled ex-Catholics.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 06:25 PM

97. God is a personal choice

 

so is spirituality. Good for you. I just went through the worst February of my 67 year old life. Besides February being my deceased sisters birth month, I have faced some incredible bad luck this last month. My faith in religion went out the window when I was faced with bigots/racists in a fundamentalist church I attended, because of an interracial relationship I was in, in the early 80's. Never went back. Still trying to hold on to some kind of faith but I'm struggling with the concept of a 'loving' god.....this is not something that makes sense anymore, especially with just recent events, BokoHaram, Ukraine and the evilness perpetrated by IsIs or what ever they call themselves. Great rant, and I do understand.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #97)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 06:31 PM

99. The concept of a loving god never made any sense.

 

If you're a monotheist, and you think your god is omnipotent, then, looking at history, you would also have to conclude your deity is a giant sociopath: slavery, genocide, plague, famine, disease, war, etc.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 06:32 PM

100. Hi Kath1 - I'm so sorry that you had such an awful experience.

But I'm also glad that it sounds that you found peace and have been able to move beyond the negativity you encountered.

Happy Sunday - and the rest of the week, too

Tim

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Response to Pendrench (Reply #100)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 07:48 PM

110. Thanks, Tim.

Have a great week, yourself!

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Response to Kath1 (Reply #110)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:27 PM

114. Will do :)

It really makes me sad when I hear stories like your's....I'm a practicing Catholic, and although I've had a very positive experience with the church, I know that others have been greatly hurt....so (as I said before) I'm glad that you found peace.

Best wishes

Tim

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Response to Pendrench (Reply #114)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 08:32 PM

115. Thanks.

I appreciate that.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 07:18 PM

105. Sunday is for sleeping in.

I am glad you are a recovering Catholic and happily divorced. Quitting smoking is a lot harder than quitting an indoctrination or a marriage, but well worth it.

I am a devout atheist. I don't know the answers. I'm not going to spend my short life trying to find out all the answers. No one will ever know the answers. I never believe people or institutions that pretend they do know.

When my daughter was three, she look up at her father with serious eyes and asked, "Dad, how do you spell god?" Excited, thinking he had given birth to the next Dali Lama, he said, "g-o-d." The she asked, "How do you spell Zilla." I knew I had a good little thinker.

One of my favorite students just left this world to become a monk and eventually a priest. It broke my heart, but I cant imagine him doing anything else.

My principal used to tell our elementary school children to wear "their Sunday best" on school on picture day until I threatened to wear my nightgown.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 07:24 PM

106. Kath~

You are a strong woman, good work!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #106)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 07:52 PM

111. Thanks so much, she!

And a very happy Sunday to you!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 1, 2015, 10:44 PM

116. I went to a volleyball tournament today. Better to put girls in sports and make them

strong and ready.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Mon Mar 2, 2015, 12:25 AM

119. Happy Sunday to you, Kath "I consider myself a spiritual person but it is between me and the great

unknown."

Well said!

My place of worship..


Glad everything worked out your way, Kath!

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Mon Mar 2, 2015, 01:59 AM

122. Same story....I think there are a LOT of us out there...

I was interested in the priesthood at the end of my Catholic grade school experience, but thank God, I wised up. I was an altar boy since third grade, and actually felt good about getting up at 5 am and going to the convent to help the priest serve mass to the nuns at 6, or 5:30, or whenever it was.

We were so rigidly programmed to believe every sin had a level of damnation attached to it. Never could quite get a handle on the "mortal" "venial" sin thing. I guess if you know it was mortal, and you did it anyway...ah, forget it. It all makes no sense now; but we tried to make sense out of it when we were growing up.

My four kids all went to Catholic grade and high schools. Paid a bundle for that "private education", and then when they were nearly grown, my wife filed for divorce after I worked my butt off putting her through engineering school, and she got her profession that out paid mine by at least another 50%. She didn't need this log any longer. Same story about affairs. I never knew, and never even thought about that going on, but she enlightened me when I couldn't understand why we broke apart. I still say, "damn her", and mean it.

I met my current wife, and being Catholic was a real leg up. She is Mexican, and that means a lot to most of them. I don't go any longer, and she still goes alone, sometimes. I have ZERO respect for the Catholic Church any longer. I am impressed by the latest Pope, but that's ONE person. Pope John Paul was OK too, but the turd in between was the typical hypocrite.

We find our own God. I still believe in the Christ and the Maker, and maybe there will be something after death. I'm not betting all my marbles on it anymore. I just know when it's over, it's over. If there's something after this life, well, that will be a nice surprise. If not.....what am I going to do about it? Nada.

Thanks for sharing your story. I enjoyed reading it. I find some of the most hypocritical low lifes hide behind their religious piety. It's all bull shit to me. I found ONE Church I enjoyed attending in my whole life. It's like going to a "flower child festival". They are good, decent people, and they spend ALL their energy in "helping the least among us", something Christ actually told us to do. The rest of the churches are all about building a new parish hall, or paying down the mortgage on a monstrosity of a church, etc. All bull shit.

Amen....

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Mon Mar 2, 2015, 07:43 AM

123. Good on you!

Most belief systems (at least the ones that aren't focused on the disempowerment of individuals) have some sort of saying about there being multiple paths to a spiritual goal.

Even Christianity has it, with the "many mansions" bit. Pity that so many in organized religion forget that.

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Response to Kath1 (Original post)

Sun Mar 8, 2015, 05:37 PM

128. Thanks to everyone for the wonderful replies!

Spent another very nice Sunday, today, without any religion.

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