"The world is not divided between East and West..."

[Ichingcarpenter]

her bio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjane_Satrapi

[treestar]

1. I agree except about the governments being the same

I do think we have a really exceptional government and we are free than they are in Iran.

[Skidmore]

7. I don't think our government is exceptional at all.

The belief that it is exceptional is what has gotten us into so much trouble for so long. And are we really freer in this nation now than Iranians are there?

I don't feel free. In fact, this nation is pretty much becoming the Christian version of Iran during the early revolution days. We have zealots running around with weapons demanding overthrow of the government. I feel the rigid hand of theocrats in our policies and the effects of bigotry and sexism that we refuse to address. We have fundamentalists screaming for the deaths of LGBT people and for women to be policed in their choice of clothing and reproductive choices. I see the slow dismantling of our public education system and am watching it be replaced by private/parochial interests. I see the media being coopted by the greatest of all American theologies, corporations. I don't think we are freer, just myopic when it comes to our particular brand of radicalism. It's not marching down the streets with banners and chants but being foisted upon us by monied interests and corrupt politicians who stifle the voices of the people through gerrymandering and voter suppression.

I don't feel free. I certainly don't feel freer than I did when I was in Iran during that transition in the 70s and 80s. Currently, I feel scared and stunned that such a simlar process is occurring here. Different trappings, same ends. She is right, the people are not so different, but those with power solidify it by using the cutural, economic, and political tools available to them. The struggle continues and gets more difficult because it is so lopsided.

[Fred Sanders]

12. When Radical Christians do exactly what Radical Muslims do..it is just a better kind of crazy....

[el_bryanto]

15. There are counter pressures as well though

I agree that there are a lot of bad things happening in the United States; but we've also seen a fairly steady march towards allowing same sex marriage that now seems fairly inevitable, for example. While one can argue that Fundamentalists are becoming steadily more powerful; one could also argue that they are becoming more and more noisy and unhinged as they realize how little power they actually have to control society.

There's also the issue of what Iran had before the revolution which was, by many accounts, a pretty brutal dictatorship, and what we have had which is representative government. I think there is a sanity to come back to.

Bryant

[randome]

19. Oh. Right on. That's the way I see it.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you think childhood is finished, maybe you didn't do it right the first time.
Start over.[/center][/font][hr]

[Bluenorthwest]

18. It sure does not look the same to actual LGBT people.

"Yet homosexuality is punishable by death, according to fatwas issued by almost all Iranian clerics. Until recently, lavat (sodomy for men) was a capital offence for all individuals involved in consensual sexual intercourse. But under amendments to the penal code, the person who played an "active role" will be flogged 100 times if the sex was consensual and he was not married, while the one who played a "passive role" can still be put to death regardless of his marriage status.

Punishment for mosahegheh (lesbianism) is 100 lashes for all individuals involved but it can lead to the death penalty if the act is repeated four times.

In September last year, three men from the south-western city of Ahvaz, the capital of Iran's Khuzestan province, were reported to have been executed after being found guilty of charges related to homosexuality. This week, there were unconfirmed reports of four men, identified as Saadat Arefi, Vahid Akbari, Javid Akbari and Houshmand Akbari, from Kohgiluyeh and Boyer-Ahmad province, being sentenced to death for sodomy."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/17/iran-persecution-gay-community-revealed

Living Dangerously: What It’s Like To Be Gay In Iran
http://www.vocativ.com/culture/lgbt/iran-gay-laws/

[Skidmore]

24. True now.

It just feels to me that we are hanging on by the thinnest of threads right now because of the level of power that has been amassed by the right wing extremists who are mostly religious fundamentalists. They are stripping rights and legal protections away in any way they can and the courts are stacked with them. I guess because I lived through that time in history, I am responding to how it feels and, to me, the political climate is not much different. These people have no respect for the law as it stand or the Constitution as written. They would rewrite in an instant without hesitation. I do not trust them to comply with the law and I fear those who sit silently through ignorance or apathy and let it happen.

[randome]

25. I think we have something like "national momentum", if there is such a thing.

I don't think America can fundamentally change from its founding principles, no matter how much self-inflicted pressure we put on ourselves.

Maybe that's just optimism but I think America is 'elastic' enough to survive this current round of idiocy from Conservatives.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[awoke_in_2003]

29. the current round

Has been going on since 1980. Both parties have slowly marched to the right since Reagan took office

[randome]

32. Yes, it has.

Last edited Wed Mar 4, 2015, 12:08 PM - Edit history (1)

To be fair, I think the mood of the electorate dictated that. If Democrats wanted to be re-elected, they needed to 'soften' their positions a bit and this led to both parties drifting further to the right.

Maybe Democrats should not have capitulated, taken their lumps and found other jobs. But then they would have been replaced by more Republicans.

I think we're starting to pull away from this mind-set but you're right, it's gone on for a long time. Too long. But there are signs that we're starting to pull back: ACA, gay rights, Obama raising the minimum wage for federal employees. It's not nearly enough but cracks in the Republican Machine are there.

Just look at their top contenders for President.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[awoke_in_2003]

36. i hope you are right

and that things start swinging back the other way. Like you say, there are a few things that give hope.

[Skidmore]

31. I am not that optimistic

because I see the safeguards being eroded. At the same time, big money is buying legislators and the suppression of the vote. Police department have become armies. The money that underwrites this corruption is kept offshore. I don't think there are limitless avenues for people to move up economically any longer. I just don't see the system as being as elastic.

[randome]

33. Our experiences may differ so how can I say which of us is right? Or MORE right?

I'm sure we agree it's long past time to swing out of this Conservative fever we've been in since 1980.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[zeemike]

34. Not would but have.

They have gutted the bill of rights right before our eyes and nothing was done to stop them...nothing effective that is.
And if you give an inch on that basic right and principle they will take a mile...next they will go for two.

[treestar]

22. I do. We can say anything we want

I disagree that the theocrats are getting anywhere. Most of the things they propose are absurd. They will never get them. In the meantime, more states have gay marriage and the courts uphold it.

We can say just about anything we want.

In Iran they could not. And their chance of getting gay marriage and equal rights for women is a lot farther away.

The First Amendment makes up exceptional. Maybe you have to have money to reach a large crowd. But you can say anything you want.

[treestar]

26. Look at this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026310108

[Quantess]

2. My goodness, how times have changed in Iran and Iraq!

Those were better times.

[H2O Man]

3. Recommended.

Thank you.

[Scuba]

4. I agree, especially the part about our governments being the same.

[jtuck004]

28. +1000 n/t

[randome]

5. I'm not sure I agree.

Living your life by subjugating women, stoning adulterers and killing gays seems like quite a lot of divide. That's not to say that everyone in the Eastern world is like this. Obviously they aren't.

Nice picture, though, of someone who isn't forced to wear magic clothing. How many in the Eastern world have that choice?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[Fred Sanders]

6. Have you not taken a look at the Republican Party lately??

[randome]

8. Yeah. Neanderthals co-existing with the rest of us.

Both worlds have their population of throw-backs.

But one thing the Western world has going for it is paying at the very least lip-service to the idea of equality.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[Fred Sanders]

10. Also a population of many, many decent folks, as well, that are not defined by political parties.

[randome]

11. I have no doubt there are decent people in the Eastern world.

I just don't think both worlds are the same. At least in the Western world, we pay lip-service to the idea of equality. Not so much "over there".
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Fred Sanders]

14. Lip-service makes the xenophobia all right? Then after the lip service comes the real service...

[randome]

17. No, it doesn't. But we have aspirations.

What kind of aspirations does a cleric show who declares adulterous women will be stoned? At least here, when our politicians shoot off their mouths, it usually doesn't result in someone dying.

I'm all for a greater merging of the two worlds but I still see them, in large part, as two worlds. Not the same. Not yet.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you think childhood is finished, maybe you didn't do it right the first time.
Start over.[/center][/font][hr]

[treestar]

23. Where did you get xenophobia?

I'm not afraid of Iran. But I feel sorry for the average person there. Especially women. We have it a lot better here. I don't see how it is xenophobia to say that.

[Fumesucker]

13. I suspect you may be slandering Neanderthals..

They didn't manage to out-compete Homo Sap despite being physically a good bit more rugged.

[Skidmore]

9. See my response above.

Then think a little about where we are as a nation.

[randome]

16. It's never easy to see ourselves objectively.

But when I try, I see our rights enshrined in law, which isn't the case in much of the Eastern world. I see progress being made despite the many setbacks you mentioned.

And I see the Conservative movement running out of Old White Men to sustain it so they grasp ever more desperately to hold on to what they have.

Change -both good and bad- are very much part of our culture. Not so much in the Eastern world.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Personally, I think that post above is a sort of negative American exceptionalism that insults the

memory of those executed and assists in the continued bondage of Iranian LGBT people. In the 80's, most Democrats strongly opposed the apartheid policies in South Africa. In doing so no one was claiming that the US has no racism. Would you have told them 'how dare you be critical of apartheid when the US also has racists'? I know that Mandela spoke of racism in the US and he sure as hell seemed aware that it was not identical to and just as bad as the nation that jailed him. Perhaps Nelson had it all wrong?

[randome]

20. Another way to consider this.

If both worlds are the same, then neither should have anything to learn from the other but I don't see that as an honest viewpoint.

Can the Eastern world learn more about enshrining in law rights for minorities, ensuring equality, even reproductive freedom? I'd say that's an obvious Yes.

Now, can we learn anything from the Eastern world? I'm not seeing anything there. Feel free to correct me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you think childhood is finished, maybe you didn't do it right the first time.
Start over.[/center][/font][hr]

[Half-Century Man]

27. When taken individually, people are rational caring social animals.

Collectively; we can be panicky, violent, clan members who are often over-reactive.

[jtuck004]

30. Some days I think if we could just insert the learning of other languages into our

regular work day, it might lead to a whole new understanding. Free street classes, free food from the area...

Or maybe not.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

35. Wouldn't it be nice if our governments represented us and not the rich?