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Tue May 1, 2012, 01:04 PM

Women only: Regarding the use of the term 'girls' to describe women.

Last edited Tue May 1, 2012, 02:03 PM - Edit history (4)

("Women only" refers to *voting*... discussion is of course open! (Can I say "duh" here? ) I apologize for any confusion about that. But seriously, duh!)


Most women seem to take issue with someone using this term to describe a woman they are not friends with / do not have a prior understanding that it is acceptable to that particular woman to do so.

As for me, I have no problem with it, when it is used by women I know to describe ourselves.

What do you think?


on edit: This poll is not meant to determine what men should say. This is to find out what women think about the use of this term. Thanks.

and another edit: I would like to express to the admins my enthusiastic appreciation for the "show usernames" feature on polls... and for the Disclaimer! LOL!
47 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
I don't mind anyone referring to women as girls. I think it's no big deal at all.
14 (30%)
I don't mind when my friends or other women refer to each other that way, but otherwise it might sometimes be offensive.
4 (9%)
I don't mind when my friends or other women refer to each other that way, but otherwise it is usually offensive.
25 (53%)
I find it demeaning no matter who uses the term or why.
4 (9%)
Show usernames
Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

470 replies, 181825 views

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Reply Women only: Regarding the use of the term 'girls' to describe women. (Original post)
redqueen May 2012 OP
RobertEarl May 2012 #1
redqueen May 2012 #2
CTyankee May 2012 #11
RobertEarl May 2012 #16
CTyankee May 2012 #26
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noiretextatique May 2012 #446
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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:08 PM

1. I am not a girl

 

But I love girls. They are all women and ladies, and I love them all.

Anyway, just thought i'd be real egalitarian and poke my nose under your tent and say Hi!

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #1)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:10 PM

2. A real egalitarian?

What's that supposed to mean?

Dominant groups don't get to tell minority groups what they should find offensive. Just so you know.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #2)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:16 PM

11. it takes serious insensitivity...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #11)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:24 PM

16. Right.

 

The ""Women Only"" headline inspired me. That was not very egalitarian, hence my reaction. I oppose all forms of apartheid. Just the way I am.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #16)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:31 PM

26. Oh, you saint, you!

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #16)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:34 PM

32. Undertsandable, but take a moment to think about it.

Do you actually think non-minority groups should have any input into what minority groups find offensive?

Do you think it wasn't necessary for me to stipulate in advance that I only wanted the opinions of women to be reflected in the poll results?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #32)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:38 PM

36. Do what you want to do

 

And I'll do the same. As long as we don't try to hurt each other, it's all good. Let's party!!

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #36)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:40 PM

39. and the white male conservative says to maddow.... you girls, .... in order to diminish, dismiss

 

her.

the thing

it is used to hurt

not hurt the hurt, but to hurt the power of our voice, the contributions we make, the right to speak out

so stay true to your stance. understand, you are part of the problem. your right. and privilege

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #39)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:45 PM

48. Seems to me

 

That you are trying to hurt me. You don't even know me. Why would you want to hurt me?

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #48)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:47 PM

56. seems to me that you are purposely trying to be sexist. why? what is the pay off for you? nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #56)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:49 PM

61. allow me to offer a word here. His purpose is to get attention.

Let him bang on his high chair tray. WE shall discuss.

On with the conversation, women!

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #61)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:50 PM

64. what a woman you are, lol... nt

 

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #61)


Response to Post removed (Reply #77)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:06 PM

82. now you are just sounding.... creepy. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #82)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:51 PM

273. snork

 

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Response to iverglas (Reply #273)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:52 PM

274. ya. i know .... nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #39)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:49 PM

62. They can't hurt you if you don't let them.

Have you ever seen someone try to insult someone else only to have them seem not to notice the 'insult' at all, or just laugh out loud? Nothing is worse than firing a shot and missing so spectacularly. It is up to US to put anyone who thinks they can use a word as a weapon in their place, by making them miss their target.

Sorry, unless it's someone who is working on insulting me, which means they will be doing more than using a word, I can't get excited about it. Too many other things to be concerned about.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #62)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:52 PM

66. who is excited. called a discussion. nd the way and reasons usage like these

 

should be addressed. awareness is a good thing.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #62)


Response to seabeyond (Reply #39)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:01 PM

75. I find it very offensive of you to accuse another poster of being "a problem" simply for disagreeing

 

That's a tactic I see you using on DU all the time: whenever somebody doesn't agree with you, you paint them as someone with malicious intentions. It's not fair; it's a personal attack. You should use logic and arguments, not character assassinations.

the thing

it is used to hurt

not hurt the hurt, but to hurt the power of our voice, the contributions we make, the right to speak out

So when I call my best friend, who's the same age as me by the way, a girl (the way she calls herself a girl) I am "hurting her power to speak out"? I will inform her of this, 'cause I don't think she knew!

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #36)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:41 PM

40. It'd be nice to get some answers to those questions. nt

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #16)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:40 PM

109. Are you not familiar with polling?

If you want to find out what women think, why in heavens should we ask men? Perhaps you think you should answer for us?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #2)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:55 PM

68. Since women make up 50% of the population, how are they 'a minority group'?

 

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #68)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:57 PM

71. I have explained this to you before.

Not bothering to type it out again. I'll deign to get you a link though.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/384500/minority

You're welcome. Again.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #71)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:02 PM

78. So you're making up your own definitions now?

 

Okay. Good to know.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #78)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:03 PM

79. Sweet Jesus. nt

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #78)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:56 PM

121. Since you seem to have some strange aversion

to reading, here's a PowerPoint presentation for you. It has pictures and everything.

http://core.ecu.edu/soci/juskaa/soci2110/Lectures/Gender/index.htm

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Response to TriMera (Reply #121)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:24 PM

133. excellent! n/t

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Response to Scout (Reply #133)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:18 PM

152. Well, ya know...

some folks are more "visual" than others. Just trying to help out.

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Response to TriMera (Reply #152)

Wed May 2, 2012, 03:04 AM

281. Yes, we must be kind. They need help. I am more than happy to offer it!

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Response to TriMera (Reply #121)

Thu May 17, 2012, 05:40 PM

470. Great presentation nt

 

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #1)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:16 PM

12. but a girl is not a woman. is a boy a man? lmao. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #12)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:21 PM

14. Sure.

 

It ain't the meat it's the motion.

It's in the way that you use it.

It's like when some asshole calls me a commie. I am a commie, but yeah, it pisses me off when some capitalist asshole uses it to put me down.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #12)

Wed May 2, 2012, 04:12 PM

300. He is if he's a good old boy.

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #12)

Thu May 3, 2012, 06:56 AM

320. A man can be a boy


I am when I get a new toy. Of course, the toys got a bit more expensive then when I was 10 or so, and the hobbies a lot more complicated.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #320)

Thu May 3, 2012, 10:31 AM

347. And in that sense, women can be girls, too!

 

I get as giddy and excited over a new bike (avid cyclist here) as I ever did when I was little.

Being called "girl" offends me when I interpret deliberate demeaning intent. It also does so when I encounter unthinking casual usage that reflects what seems to be a mindset of relegating women to a lesser status - although I find I'm more tolerent of older men doing this, considering them to be a product of their generational culture...a bit of discrimination on my part, if I'm being honest.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:11 PM

3. It's always about context.

 

I have seen waitstaff refer to a group of senior ladies as "girls" -- it was cute and the ladies enjoyed it.

Though I am 52, I use "girls" commonly myself, about friends my own age.

When it is used to demean or as a slur towards women then yeah, it bugs me. Also when it is used by men towards other men to imply they are weak ("You throw like a girl" it bugs the crap out of me.

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Response to Hell Hath No Fury (Reply #3)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:13 PM

5. Yes, hence the two middle-ground poll answers.

That last one, we had a knock down drag out in GD years back about that. The majority agreed that saying someone 'throws like a girl' as an insult is A-OK!

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Response to redqueen (Reply #5)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:42 PM

42. My daughter plays Fast-Pitch softball...

... and she and her friends proudly wear T-shirts that say "I throw like a girl". All I can say is you'd better have a good glove when she unloads one on you.

But I'm interrupting. Typical guy. Sorry. Carry on.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #42)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:43 PM

45. Oh no no no... I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say I didn't welcome men to post...

I just didn't want them to be voting.

I really should have worded that OP more carefully.

Thanks for your post.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #42)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:46 PM

51. yes... the are playing off of, mocking that is said and good for them

 

that is how we address it in our house, with mockery.

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Response to Hell Hath No Fury (Reply #3)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:45 PM

50. Yep.

I got up into the face of a checker at the market the other day for calling me "dear". I asked her how she ever got to be a manager talking down to her women customers. The context was wrong for that kind of presumed familiarity.

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #50)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:20 PM

90. Wow!

I have no anger issues like that, so if someone calls me "hon" or "dear" or "sweetie"a bartender actually did last week), I don't go ballistic.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #90)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:25 PM

94. I think it's more about self-confidence than anger issues.

 

At work, I and other guys my age (I'm 26) are being called "boys" by our female co-workers all the time. I am never offended or upset by that. I have the self-confidence to know what I'm worth and I don't think anyone could make me feel any less about myself by any word they used.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #94)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:30 PM

98. That's a good point. n/t

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #94)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:53 PM

167. That self-confidence that you're so proud of

was handed you by society on silver platter because of the fact that you were born a "boy". Women, on the other hand, have to work a little harder for that self-confidence. Partly because we have to deal with certain people that always feel the need to bolster their own self-confidence by telling women that they don't know what they're talking about. You see what I did there?

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Response to TriMera (Reply #167)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:19 PM

190. Yes, you turned women into helpless, powerless victims who can't do anything on their own...

 

because of The Patriarchy.

Yep, you're really helping women this way.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #190)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:33 PM

195. That's what you got from my post?

I think that and your transparency page tells folks all they need to know.

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Response to TriMera (Reply #195)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:41 PM

198. That's what you said.

 

You said women can't have any self-confidence because men (the patriarchy) won't let them.

I think that and your transparency page tells folks all they need to know.

Of course, the lazy only go for post titles, never bother to check the substance of the posts and completely throw out the context of a thread and then quickly jump to a conclusion about a person they've never met.

Yes, it is intellectually lazy, but if it can help you to frame a discussion a certain way, why not?

I give women much more credit than just being powerless victims of men, but I've noticed people who call themselves 'feminists' don't. I think that's much more telling than skimming a headline and then throw out accusations. But maybe that's just me.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #198)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:38 PM

257. "You said women can't have any self-confidence because men (the patriarchy) won't let them."

no, that is not what was said. and your transparency page is ... well ... transparent. as are you and your childish motives.

here is the meat of the post (bold emphasis mine):

Women, on the other hand, have to work a little harder for that self-confidence. Partly because we have to deal with certain people that always feel the need to bolster their own self-confidence by telling women that they don't know what they're talking about.


so show me where it says women can't have any self-confidence because men won't let them.

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Response to Scout (Reply #257)

Tue May 1, 2012, 10:01 PM

277. Sure, if you cut up the quote it's easy to look like you're right.

 

You 'forgot' to add the first sentence which said I had it easy because 'The Patriarchy' favored me because I'm a boy. Implication: "You're a man and therefore unfit to comment on anything related to women so STFU. Men are given self-confidence by nature and women have to work for it, thus women should be pitied." Blatantly false, of course, since there are millions of men who are anything but self-confident, but whatever floats your boat (whatever fits your narrative).

I find this funny:

certain people that always feel the need to bolster their own self-confidence by telling women that they don't know what they're talking about.

Like the 'feminists' (their term) in this thread who said that women who didn't agree about the so-called offensive nature of the word 'girl' had "self-confidence issues"?

You can childishly point to other people's past posts as long and often as you want as a means of distraction, but nothing will ever erase that blatant hypocrisy.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #190)

Mon May 7, 2012, 02:12 PM

441. you know you are a male behaving badly, don't you?

really...you are hijacking this thread for attention, so this is my last post to you. it's because you feel privileged enough to claim that a woman who is insulted by attempts to demean her is "victim." it is really just about HEARING AND RESPECTING the experiences of other people. not about using your own experience as a MALE (being called a boy) to deny women's experiences.

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Response to TriMera (Reply #167)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:27 PM

218. Please, don't assume men are some pillar of self-confidence.

I'm one of the least confident people that I know. I've had self esteem issues for years. And yes, I am a (young) man.

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Response to TriMera (Reply #167)

Thu May 3, 2012, 07:03 AM

322. Nobody handed me anything


I was abused by my stepmother and picked on by classmates.

That "self confidence" was earned.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #322)


Response to zappaman (Reply #90)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:29 PM

97. Same here...

although in a certain context, and a certain inflection, I might take offense (though I wouldn't go off, don't see the point).

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Response to zappaman (Reply #90)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:36 PM

104. But you do seem to have reading issues.

Not only did I not go ballistic, I wasn't angry. Newsflash: you don't have to be angry to defend your boundaries or to reject sexism in public places.

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #104)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:39 PM

106. The way you said it... "got up into the face of"...

might have led to the misunderstanding.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #106)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:53 PM

120. Could be. It's the internet after all and we can't see expressions

although the expression is about directness not rage.

I think the problem with accepting "girl" or any diminuative or inappropriate terms of familiarity is that they erode women's agency and autonomy in the public square, re-enforcing the idea/practice that women don't have or need either. And the experience is almost always tonal in context.

Which is the main reason that asking for a list of forbidden words just misses the mark entirely.

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #120)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:59 PM

123. "asking for a list of forbidden words just misses the mark entirely"

Indeed.

I did interpret that expression as meaning that you were upset at the time, so that's behind my misunderstanding at least.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #123)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:14 PM

128. Getting "up in someone's face" is just a literalization of "confronting"

(coming face to face) which can denote hostility or defiance but doesn't necessarily. Language geekiness on my part.

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #128)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:19 PM

131. not only can it be done without anger, i use a smile

 

and nice and genuine and is well received.

i know what you mean.

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #120)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:14 PM

129. So if someone would refer to you as a girl, you wouldn't be able to 'get into that guys face'?

 

I think the problem with accepting "girl" or any diminuative or inappropriate terms of familiarity is that they erode women's agency and autonomy in the public square, re-enforcing the idea/practice that women don't have or need either. And the experience is almost always tonal in context.

If the use of the word 'girl' indeed "erode women's agency and autonomy in the public square", then could you have reacted the way you did, getting in the face of the male employee? If your theory is correct, then would you be reduced to a helpless and powerless victim just because he used the word 'girl'?

Don't you see your theory is worded a little... apocalyptic?

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #104)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:42 PM

112. Yes, I'm sure you were very calm

when you "got up in her face".
My bad.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #112)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:45 PM

115. Newsflash 2: You don't have to be angry or combative to confront someone

which is what getting into someone's face means literally.

In fact, it's usually much more impactful if you are smiling and calm.

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #115)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:50 PM

119. It means to confront someone angrily

If you weren't confronting them angrily, then maybe a better phrase?

http://www.englishforums.com/English/PhraseSomeonesFace/zjwgh/post.htm

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Response to zappaman (Reply #119)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:01 PM

124. I'm not hiring editors today.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #119)

Wed May 2, 2012, 07:48 PM

306. "I got up in (his/her) face" is so common among my clients that if I had

 

a nickel for everytime I heard it, I would be rich.

Of course, I am a criminal defense attorney.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #90)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:57 PM

122. I can only imagine that you never take exception when someone says to you

I can only imagine that you never take exception when someone says to you, "bless your little heart"... which is also just as benign as "hon" or "dear"

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #122)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:04 PM

125. As a native Texan...

I really would never think 'dear' or 'hon' or 'sweetie' were meant to be belittling or insulting.

And I'll go one further and say 'bless your heart' is not usually used in a nasty way, either. It is used as a way of being nasty without being too nasty, but most often it means something like 'Aw, I'm sorry'... said usually when some bad thing has befallen someone and you want to show you feel for them.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #125)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:16 PM

130. But if someone insisted those terms were belittling or insulting, would you stop using them?

 

Even though you know there's nothing insulting about them?

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #130)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:54 PM

168. With them, of course

It should go without saying. If behaving a certain way or using certain language around someone who has told you that it is annoying or offensive to them then common courtesy dictates that you don't behave that way or use those words around them in order to not annoy or offend them... even if you yourself disagree or even think it's ridiculous.

Common courtesy anymore has flown out the window. People seem to believe that their own beliefs and feelings are the center of the universe and have no obligation to curb voicing those beliefs or feelings around those whom they KNOW are annoyed or offended by them because they believe their own beliefs and feelings are more important than anyone else's. To not CARE that some are hurt by the refusal to accommodate their feelings by doing such a SIMPLE and courteous thing as to not behave in certain ways or use certain language around those people you KNOW are hurt and offended by it is the height of selfishness and rudeness.

People are different and have different beliefs and feelings, and there is no hope of people being able to get along and even learn how to see eye to eye without employing some basic common courtesy and accommodate the beliefs and feelings of others especially when it such a SIMPLE thing to do.

So yes, OF COURSE one should stop behaving a certain way or using certain language that they KNOW is annoying and offensive to others when around those people or one is a selfish, rude boorish person that needs to learn that the entire universe is not centered around them, their beliefs and feelings are not more important than others, and in order to get along with others then some SIMPLE common courtesy must be employed.


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #168)

Tue May 1, 2012, 05:04 PM

170. you are so awesome, consistently and always.

 

as i said in my post, i didnt not see an issue with girl. or b**** or other language. i have learned since then that it is offensive to some, sometimes many and why. and it has not been an issue not only adjusting my language, but defending those that feel that way.

your posts are always insightful and right on.

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #168)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:11 PM

185. So if someone told me the word "and" is offensive to them, I should stop using "and"?

 

There's a difference between common courtesy and capitulating for people who always only want to have everything their way. That's all I'm saying.

There are some people who try to spin that into "you just want to be able to use foul language" or even "you don't want to extent respect to women". Not that they don't know such allegations are ridiculous and have nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make. It just fit their agenda of always wanting to have everybody bow down to them and do everything their way. (Not saying you're one of them, of course.)

So yes, OF COURSE one should stop behaving a certain way or using certain language that they KNOW is annoying and offensive to others when around those people or one is a selfish, rude boorish person that needs to learn that the entire universe is not centered around them, their beliefs and feelings are not more important than others, and in order to get along with others then some SIMPLE common courtesy must be employed.

Okay, I get what you say. But now I have a dilemma. The very same people who keep insisting that the word 'girl' is offensive to women and demand we all stop using the word are also the people who have thrown out gems like "all men are potential rapists" (actual quote) and similar misandrist things. I've asked them to stop using hurtful slurs like that, but they won't. They believe they have the right to say things like that and will not extend the common courtesy to knock it off. Yet they demand we stop using an everyday word like 'girl'. So the selfish, rude and boorish people who think the universe center around them when it comes to spreading shit about all men in the world now want me and others to extend common courtesy to them.

What is wrong here?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #125)

Wed May 2, 2012, 11:35 AM

290. I see "bless your heart" as either genuine concern, or a back-handed compliment

I see "bless your heart" as either genuine concern, or a back-handed compliment. I'm Texan (DFW) too and hear it often in my congregation as a sincere form of benign blessing; but much more often, outside of church, it really is little more than a condescending verbal pat on the head.

As for myself, I'd rather not be referred to as "hon" or "sweetie", but this *is* TX, and it's part of the vernacular so I never make an issue of it. It's as common as "y'all". Sigh.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #125)

Thu May 3, 2012, 11:01 PM

403. In my experience, they very often are belittling

I am native too, and the little endearments everyone adds in conversations drive me nuts. I especially loathe being called "sweetie" by men. I am a 41 year old woman, not your fragile little girl. I don't even like my mom to call me sweetie, I am not five. It doesn't bother me so much from a woman, but I still don't like it, especially from a perfect stranger. I also think there is a certain subset of good ol' boys who use those terms to imply weakness, fragility, and/or to be condescending.... my vocabulary is totally failing me and I can't find the right words.... sigh.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #122)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:20 PM

132. You are correct. n/t

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Response to zappaman (Reply #90)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:25 PM

134. Me neither

 

Especially when it's an older person. They aren't trying to be offensive and frankly, I find many people these days are just looking for shit to be offended about. Because I'm smart enough to know when someone is looking to offend me, I'm not playing that game.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:11 PM

4. It depends on the age of the "girl"

And the age of the person who is calling her that.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #4)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:13 PM

6. An elderly senior executive referring to his young secretary?

e.g. 'I'll have my girl order lunch.'

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Response to redqueen (Reply #6)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:44 PM

46. "I'll have my woman order lunch" doesn't sound any better.

May as well say "wench" in that case.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #46)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:00 PM

73. "I'll have Lisa order lunch"

Or "I'll have Mrs./Miss/Ms. Smith order lunch" would work just fine.

An employee is not a possession, so the problem is with "my girl" (not just with use of the word "girl". "My girl" needs to be replaced, not just "girl".

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #73)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:50 PM

166. Well, obviously.

I was just addressing the OP's premise that it's always better to say woman than girl. In this example, clearly both would be poor choices.

And it wasn't me who brought it up, either.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #46)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:01 PM

74. cuz, you know, saying "i'll ask my assistant to order lunch"

is just so fucking difficult to think of, i know.

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Response to Scout (Reply #74)

Tue May 1, 2012, 05:20 PM

173. The way the question was framed to me by Redqueen

was word choice of "girl" vs "woman". Obviously, "assistant" is the best choice, but that wasn't the question.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:14 PM

7. When I was 20, it might have bothered me. Now at 50+ it makes me laugh and smile.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #7)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:15 PM

9. Really?

The older I get the more it bothers me... when men use it. I can't think of a time I've been bothered by women saying it as long as it's not used in a nasty way.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:15 PM

8. When somone is being demeaning, it doesn't matter what term they use. It's demeaning.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:15 PM

10. interesting poll and let me tell you why. what i voted is not specifically how i feel,

 

but closest to the options given. with clarification.

i dont see young women as women but it is the same with young men. so i have a bit of a problem using it as a whole for like 18 yr olds that are declared as adults.

i had a tough time using women. i used ladies or girls like most all i am around. it seemed like it was an insult using women. as if we were calling them old or something. i realized this about a year ago. it took a lot of work for me to personally get beyond calling women girls and ladies. to own the word. then i started noticing all others doing this, too. and i started having conversation. why we did this. i started falling in love with the word woman. not particularly liking girl and lady.

i was at a car lot talking to a woman. she says.... i am the only girl here. woman, i said. you are a woman not a girl. she was going to dismiss it with a wave of the hand and then stopped talking, looked me in the eye and said.... thank you. yes. woman. we had a bonding moment.

my 14 yr old son was talking the other day. he always goes into these stories. he says, .... there was a girl

i stop him there. i need the facts. woman or girl? i ask.

woman he says.... and goes on with the story.

it matters. i was picturing a girl. i have so separated the words that i no longer see a woman when i hear girl.

anyway, i didnt care for many years. now i do. not the end of the world when someone uses girl. i get we are conditioned. but....

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #10)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:28 PM

22. I always use "women" when we are talking about women. I reserve "girls" for what are really

girls. My granddaughters are 10. 13 and 16. The younger two are, IMO, girls. The oldest is a young woman, who has a summer job lined up, is taking tough subjects in school with an eye towards college, and has both a boat license and a motor vehicle license. I would use the same standard for the term "boy" and "man." I think it is a degree of taking on responsibility for oneself.

I avoid using Ladies except in a humorous way, but I have often used the term "a dear lady" to refer to someone who is, well, a dear lady. I think it is respectful to someone who would call herself a lady.

I'm not crazy about the term First Lady. I would refer to Michelle Obama as a strong woman, a wise woman and a deeply caring woman.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #22)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:31 PM

27. good for you. i really had to condition myself to use woman. i love the word

 

glad i recognized and shifted. but yea for you doing that.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #27)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:39 PM

37. I have tried and tried to understand why so many women have felt this way.

I guess it is because the term lady is an honorific. When I taught a class of Hispanic women I was referred to as La Senora. I know that in France you call a woman who is not a kid "Madame" and in Italy "Signora." I'm guessing that "lady" is the same impulse to be gracious.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #37)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:44 PM

47. personally investing the time thinking and discussing this. age

 

the greatest insult to a woman is aging. all of society is opposed to a woman aging. continue with girl.... and she is not fully mature. maturing women in our society is bad.

i think that is why it is done. the underlying ugly of society, for the nicest of reasons. and of course there are those that use it to condescend. to dismiss womens voice.

but i think the majority is a kindness to not draw out that a woman has aged. that is why i am opposing the word girl, for a woman. i am allowed to age. it is ok. it is not an insult.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #10)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:11 PM

84. Oh. My. God.

 

my 14 yr old son was talking the other day. he always goes into these stories. he says, .... there was a girl

i stop him there. i need the facts. woman or girl? i ask.

woman he says.... and goes on with the story.

Wow, what a jolly household you must have.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #84)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:24 PM

93. Veritably a household of fun! n/t

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #84)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:12 PM

127. You better believe it.

So, two guys walk into a bar.

Wait a minute, are these men or boys?

They're men, but that's irrelevant to this joke. OK, two men walk into a bar...

What do these men do? Do they have jobs? White collar or blue collar?

None of this has anything to do with this joke.

SEXIST!!!!

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:20 PM

13. I'm always at a loss as how to properly address the woman half of humanity

I have a lot of things I call the man half and most of them are not good for discussion so I'll leave them out.
So fill me in

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Response to madokie (Reply #13)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:22 PM

15. Women are regular people, just like men, and just like men, we have different opinions.



If you don't know the woman, my kind suggestion is that you not assume it's ok to refer to her or any other woman as a 'girl' until you know her thoughts about the matter.

Seems simple enough, right?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #15)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:32 PM

28. Thank you

I know now

Personally I don't know if us men can ever be equal to mothers, You all are special

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Response to madokie (Reply #28)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:33 PM

30. i dont know. i have a special place in my heart for my father. he was awfully special, too

 

with his respect and character i was able to value my worth that has allowed me to avoid a lot of the pitfalls women fall into.



dont be selling those men short. lol. i wont have it.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #30)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:46 PM

52. Mybad

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Response to madokie (Reply #52)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:47 PM

59. ya ya ya. nt

 

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Response to madokie (Reply #28)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:54 PM

67. That's biased against women without children!!111!



No but seriously, dealing with pregnancy is often far from easy, I ain't gonna argue with that! And being a good parent of either sex is so difficult, too.

There's a lot of complicated stuff involved with being a mother in the patriarchy, I'd prefer to discuss that somewhere other than this thread, though.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:25 PM

17. If you are over 30 we can use damsel, under 30 we can use lassie, that work for ya?

 

I don't think we can use maiden, that's a synonym for virgin right?

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #17)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:27 PM

20. Please see the update to the OP. nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #20)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:28 PM

23. Update's cool but I don't think that works very well on the public internet tubes

 

And who told you I was a boy anyway LOL

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #23)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:30 PM

25. The clarification wasn't about who should be voting...

but about the purpose of the OP.

If you'd like to start an off-topic subthread, feel free! Just letting you know it's not why I started he poll. Thanks!

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:26 PM

18. Why would anyone find this demeaning???

And how is the average person supposed to determine which one of the 50 terms each person they deal with prefers over the other terms and which ones offend them???

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Response to cbdo2007 (Reply #18)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:27 PM

21. Please see the update to the OP. nt

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Response to cbdo2007 (Reply #18)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:29 PM

24. Why would African-American men find "boy" demeaning?

Hint: it's as a way of diminishing worth.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #24)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:18 PM

88. Why would you think I would "diminish" my sister's "worth" by calling her a girl?

 

You really think I would do that to my own sister?

The argument of the anti-"girl" people just doesn't make any sense.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #88)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:33 PM

140. Is your sister an adult? If she is, then yes you risk diminishing her worth by call her a child.

Whether you use it that way I cannot say. If she's an adult and you call her girl in circumstances where you would never refer to a man as a boy that is exactly what you are doing whether it's conscious or not.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #140)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:28 PM

193. I seriously think some posters have disconnected their theoretical views from the real world.

 

Your bombastic language undoubtedly fits in perfectly in a Gender Studies class or a feminist textbook, but what I'm trying to get at, is that it's pretty useless in the real world, because the vast majority of people, male and female, simply don't perceive it that way. Most people don't see hidden agendas behind everyday words like 'girl'. Because mostly, they're not there. Life generally tends to be much simpler than what theorists cook up during their philosophizing.

The discussion about the word 'girl' has been done before, in Help & Meta. I was told there by another member that I was devaluing and belittling my female co-workers and supervisor by referring to them as 'girls'. I showed that thread to my co-workers and my supervisor. They laughed their asses off at something they perceived as ridiculously far-fetched and over-the-top.

If you or anybody else don't like to be called 'girls', I won't call you that. It's as simple as that. But don't tell me I cannot use that word because it IS 'diminishing' or 'devaluing' etc. like that's a fact. No, that's an opinion and, from my experience with women of all ages, a minority opinion.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #193)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:09 PM

208. Never took a gender studies class. I've lived life as a girl and a woman.

I've been in work situations where men referred to women support staff as girls but never have I heard the men in support staff jobs referred to as boys. I've also worked in environments where calling the clerks "girls" would result in a reprimand because it violated the sexual harassment policy.

Yes, the discussion has been had here before and will be had again. Welcome to DU.





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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #208)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:13 PM

212. I just used that as an example; it wasn't an attack on you.

 

In my work environment, men of my age (I'm 26) are called 'boys' and women of the same age are called 'girls'. By ourselves/themselves and by others. It was bizarre to read outsiders accuse me of sexism over something my co-workers are perfectly okay with.

I've also worked in environments where calling the clerks "girls" would result in a reprimand because it violated the sexual harassment policy.

That's the saddest thing I've ever read.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #212)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:44 PM

224. IIRC it was consistent with EEOC guidelines

because the company was a government contractor and had to demonstrate EEOC compliance.
I think it was based on the potential for creating a hostile work environment. To minimize the risk of complaints the company just made it clear that the expectation was that we would use other language.




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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #224)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:57 PM

229. I don't know what EEOC guidelines are. What does EEOC stand for?

 

I just think it's sad. And pathetic.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #229)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:26 PM

245. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission

The government agency in charge of such workplace issues.

It's really not pathetic. Enforcement is based on intent, so if you're joking with a friend and no one else is witness there's no violation. If others are offended and you cease to use the term EEOC probably would rule against you/your employer.

http://www.eeoc.gov/

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #245)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:27 PM

247. I still think it's nonsense.

 

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #247)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:42 PM

261. I understand, but it's not considered such under U.S. law. n/t

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #261)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:43 PM

262. That's true. Then again, many laws are nonsense, too.

 

We can agree on that, right?

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #88)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:59 PM

144. so where's your "False Comparison" accusation now? n/t

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Response to Scout (Reply #144)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:33 PM

194. I was comparing calling a woman a girl with calling a woman a girl?

 

Where's the falseness?

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #194)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:41 PM

259. nope. try again.

read the subject of the post you replied to.

when i mentioned African American men and being called boy in relation to women being called girl, you accused me of "knowing" that was falsely equated.

so, where is that same accusation from you now, in relation to this new post?

edit because i forgot this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=85098

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Response to Scout (Reply #259)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:45 PM

265. I compared women to women; you compared women to African-Americans.

 

What are you trying to get at?

If you're really so desperate to play "gotcha" games, you've gotta word your gripes better so I can understand them.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #24)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:20 PM

89. It all depends on context.

I'm sure I could greatly offend females with both the terms "girl" and "woman" when used in the correct context, but you can't just make a blanket statement based on one small group and situation and expect society to adhere to it. I know white men who would be offended by the term "boy" yet I know African-American men who use the term all the time.

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Response to cbdo2007 (Reply #89)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:39 PM

141. I was replying to a question of why it would be perceived as demeaning.

That was the context. I didn't make a blanket statement. And yes, some African-American men may call others "boy" but when a white person calls an African-American man "boy" it's loaded with the historical context of diminishing them and the white person had best understand that even if s/he calls white men "boys" too.

There is a similar history of referring to women as girls in our culture and that is the parallel I drew. Others have used examples, such as male bosses referring to their secretaries as "girls."

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #141)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:31 PM

160. I agree. Well said. n/t

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Response to cbdo2007 (Reply #18)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:16 PM

87. Because Andrea Dworkin told them to.

 

Oops, I shouldn't have said that. Disagreeing with a particular brand of feminism (even though you have supported all main feminist issues yourself all your life) gets your posts hidden nowadays and gets you labeled a sexist.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #87)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:42 PM

142. don't worry your pretty little head...

you've already been labeled a sexist long before this post.

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Response to Scout (Reply #142)

Tue May 1, 2012, 05:59 PM

179. OMG!!!!!1!1 You just said 'pretty little head'! I'm gonna alert!!!!1!1

 

You devalued me!!!

you've already been labeled a sexist long before this post.

Yes, by people who call themselves feminists, but belittle, ridicule and talk down to women who don't make the same choices in life as they do. Color me impressed.

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Response to cbdo2007 (Reply #18)

Mon May 7, 2012, 02:33 PM

445. here's a clue: grown women don't like to be called girls; black men don't like to be called boys

if you don't understand why those terms are demeaning to those groups, i don't know to tell you.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:26 PM

19. I first chose the third option but after thinking about it...

I think context and the age of the person, male or female using it, comes into it as well. There are seniors, both male and female, who use it and they certainly mean no offense by it at all.

In the end I chose the second option of the choices offered.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:32 PM

29. As a dude may I chime in?

 

Calling women "girls" is dismissive, patronizing and downright sexist. To me, it's kind of like calling a man "Boy! Get over here, boy!"

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Response to Taverner (Reply #29)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:36 PM

33. Yes! Yes of course, sorry

I suppose I should clarify, IMO only women should be *voting*... discussion is of course a free for all.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #29)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:43 PM

43. the boys in the band? Playing poker with the boys?

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Response to dmallind (Reply #43)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:50 PM

63. The perception of "girls" is different than "boys"

 

Kind of like "occidental" and "oriental"

Yes, they both pertain to east and west, but the term oriental has a lot of baggage occidental doesn't have.

If I say "How are you girls?" it comes off as dismissive and patronizing

If I were to say the same thing to men, it would sound weird. "How are you boys today?" Unless I'm a waitress named 'Flo' it just doesn't come off right.

The term "girl" likewise can be "reclaimed" by women, for instance the RiotGrrrl movement reclaims the word.

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Response to Taverner (Reply #29)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:14 PM

149. There's a difference between the plural and the singular.....

Calling someone "boy" or "girl" rarely has a positive or endearing spin behind it. Especially since you gave a specific instance where it's clearly meant to be insulting.

I've frequently had friends and waitresses refer to the group I'm with as "boys". Never thought much about it. It's kinda flirty, which I guess is a whole other issue.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:33 PM

31. Is there ANY term that...

... some "politically corrective" control freak won;'t find a way to be "mortally offended" by?

I mean really. Could some people have any thinner skin?

Wow, just wow.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #31)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:37 PM

34. white male privilege takes us a long way

 

huh.....

we dont have to consider why something might be offensive, just moan because someone dare be offended. a true privilege.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #31)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:40 PM

38. Many offensive terms are used to reinforce social norms...

and many of those norms are unfair.

There aren't many groups that' don't 'get' this. I'm wondering now if you belong to the main 'I don't get it' group, as far as the use of language to reinforce oppression is concerned.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #38)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:28 PM

96. I'm sure he gets it. He just doesn't agree with it.

 

So there's no need for you to be condescending to him by implying he's too stupid to 'get it'.

(But that's an old tactic used often on UD.)

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #96)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:31 PM

99. So he understands these terms are used to maintain a group's dominant status...

yet he thinks that's fine and dandy?

DU is certainly the wrong forum for him, if that's the case!

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Response to redqueen (Reply #99)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:35 PM

103. No, he doesn't agree with your theories about these terms.

 

(Neither do I, by the way.)

You know that's what I meant, I'm sure.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #103)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:40 PM

110. They're not *my* theories, just as the definition of a minority group is not *my* definition.

Fucksake, why do I bother?

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Response to redqueen (Reply #110)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:42 PM

111. "Fucksake, why do I bother?" i do not know. why?

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #111)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:46 PM

116. Hahahahaha...

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Response to redqueen (Reply #110)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:43 PM

113. Okay, then he doesn't agree with SOMEBODY ELSE'S theories that YOU used...

 

There, is that better for you? Or are there more hairs you wanted to split?

Who dreamed up the idea that the term girl "are used to maintain a group's dominant status" and what was she smoking? ('Cause I'd like some of it, too!)

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Response to redqueen (Reply #38)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:02 PM

146. oh they get it all right

they just don't give a fuck.

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Response to Scout (Reply #146)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:43 PM

200. Or they just disagree.

 

Have you ever heard of grey? It's that thing that's between black and white.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #31)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:46 PM

53. You forgot the sarcasm tag. n/t

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #53)

Tue May 1, 2012, 05:21 PM

174. No, my friend ...

.. I most certainly didn't forget a damn thing, but thanks for the crappy attempt at being snarky. I'll file it with all of the other special comments.

If I spent as much time shopping for reasons to be self-righteously "offended" over mainly innocuous terms said about me and others like me, I wouldn't have time for much else. I don't know about you, but I have real ACTUAL shit in my life that merits my attention that isn't something I can just ignore because it's trivial fluff. If the worst thing that happens to you in a day, is that someone with no ill intent calls you by a term you decided to be "offended" by, I'd say you've had a pretty easy day.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #174)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:16 PM

215. I'm sorry about the "actual shit" in your life

but this thread isn't measuring whether major life crap is more important in the moment than being called a girl.

One woman being called a girl is nothing in the greater scheme of things. Discussing whether women as a group being called girls is damaging to gender equality is.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #215)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:45 PM

266. What you seem not to want to...

.. understand, is that when you raise a stink about trivial crap, it reflects negatively on the serious issues of REAL gender bias.

For example:

http://front.moveon.org/the-war-on-women-in-6-simple-tweets-from-sen-barbara-boxer/?rc=fb.fan

Being the misogynistic boy I am, I linked that on my Facebook page. Keep fighting the important fights, mam.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #266)

Tue May 1, 2012, 10:14 PM

279. What you seem not to want to understand is this isn't trivial.

To suggest that it is misses the reality that language influences perception. If you're old enough to remember when there were only policemen and firemen rather than police officers and firefighters, you should understand what that means.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #266)

Tue May 1, 2012, 10:37 PM

280. REAL gender bias...

...is perpetuated and nurtured by these silly little (seemingly) trivial things like language.

Language reenforces and influences perception and behavior.

Why is it assumed that because some of us care about potentially harmful language, we don't also care about many other things?

This isn't an either/or choice.

P.S. Caring about language and advocating for language awareness is not the same as being "perpetually offended" or "outraged by a word". I understand that subtlety will be lost on many. I admit that I had to hear it a zillion times before I "got it".

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #31)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:21 PM

92. Be prepared to have your post alerted on because you "don't think women deserve any respect"...

 

... in 3... 2.... 1....

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #31)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:10 PM

450. spoken like a true ally

respecting people is not "political correctness." it is just respect. go to a corner is harlem and start yelling racial slurs and see how well you are receive by the "thin-skinned," boy.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #450)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:55 PM

462. So now the word...

... girl is on the same level as the n-word?

You really actually believe that? Seriously?


That's one of the most patently ridiculous things I've ever read.

Note, there is NO sarcasm implied or intended.

RIDICULOUS.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:37 PM

35. I don't mind it if it's between girlfriends joking around,

although the older we get, the more we hunt for the most insulting birthday cards we can find each other ( ), it riles me when a man uses it to describe women though. I know my friends aren't being condesending,not so much so when a man says it.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:41 PM

41. I also prefer "Ma'am" to "Mrs."

If clerks and other customer service people look at me and decide that I am over thirty, they almost always address me as "Mrs.", which is inaccurate. If you want to respect my gray hairs, if you absolutely insist on it, just say "Ma'am". That would apply nicely to both the married and the unmarried.

The assumption that I am married because most women are at my age is sloppy. Another assumption, I think, is that all women prefer marriage to singleness, and would rather be inaccurately addressed as Mrs. than as Miss. I know that there are terrifically happy and productive marriages, and also know that if a woman inadvertently marries one of the egregious losers out there, she may be in a world of trouble.

There are, it strikes me, an awful lot of assumptions floating around, just as many as before the current wave of feminism. We should continue to clean up the language. I'm not sure how many centuries will be needed to achieve a non-sexist society, but tweaking perceptions one word at a time is a worthy and productive tactic.

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Response to planetc (Reply #41)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:45 PM

49. Love this post!

Thanks for introducing these other issues... you're right, there are a lot of assumptions floating around, and it will take a very long time to make more equitable society.

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Response to planetc (Reply #41)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:09 PM

147. I prefer Ms. personnally.

Ma'am feels agist to me.

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Response to planetc (Reply #41)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:20 PM

154. I attribute this more to young people not knowing better and not being taught these things

Mrs. is for married, not an "older woman". Ms. or (Mzzzz) is all encompassing.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:43 PM

44. I've always found the term seriously creepy.

 

And why any woman would encourage being referred to like that, well there are some serious self-respect issues going on there, IMHO.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #44)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:46 PM

55. I'd say it's more internalized patriarchy than self-respect issues...

consider that it's reinforced constantly that young women are 'better than' older women. If you grow up hearing that reinforced constantly by nearly everyone around you, it's hard not to start to believe it.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #55)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:56 PM

69. Yes, that is an excellent point, thanks.

 

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Response to closeupready (Reply #69)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:59 PM

72. My pleasure!

One thing we radical feminists are careful to do (though it sometimes isn't easy!) is never to blame other women for doing what it takes to get by in the P.

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Response to closeupready (Reply #44)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:34 PM

102. I think it's offensive to dismiss other womens' opinions like that.

 

And why any woman would encourage being referred to like that, well there are some serious self-respect issues going on there, IMHO.

I'm sorry, but my female friends, female co-workers and female family members do NOT have "serious self-respect issues". It's demeaning and condescending to talk about everybody who doesn't agree with you that way. Some women are just not bothered by every little thing. Has that option every occurred to you?

Some women who call themselves feminists sure have lots of problems dealing with 9and not looking down upon) women who don't share their opinions...

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Response to closeupready (Reply #44)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:45 PM

165. I find your opinion pretty judgemental of other women

You've decided they must have "issues" if they see something that minor in a way different from you? How is that feminism?

Have you expressed this to women you know who use the term or don't seem bothered by it?

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:46 PM

54. When in doubt, use "Lady". (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #54)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:49 PM

60. yuk... societal enforced rule on behavior. yuk... lol

 

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #54)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:50 PM

65. Not sure if serious...

or trying to stir the pot a little.

??

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Response to redqueen (Reply #65)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:04 PM

80. I never complain about being referred to as a "gentleman",

so why would anyone object to "lady"?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #80)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:11 PM

85. Ah, but 'gentlemen' were never property.

And aside from the class issues, there is also the fact that people do not refer to men as 'gentlemen'... hence demonstrating the term even more obviously as a possible means of othering.

Some women don't have a problem with it. Most feminists do. That'd be a whole other discussion, but one which might be useful if for the class / property issues alone.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #85)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:21 PM

91. These rules can be confusing....

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #91)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:26 PM

95. They're not rules.

And yeah, perhaps whoever I was talking to was offended by that. If so, she didn't say.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #95)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:33 PM

100. In all seriousness, are you saying the word "lady" is some sort of insult?

Or did I read that wrong?

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Response to zappaman (Reply #100)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:37 PM

105. Not at all.

Just that some people do find it bothersome / offensive / whatever.

It's not something one with a familiarity of women's issues would suggest as the perfect alternative to 'girl', though it is far less offensive it is true. Many liberals are familiar with the questionable nature of the term due to the class issues involved, which is why I wasn't sure if that previous poster was joking or serious.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #100)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:13 PM

148. not an insult, but not a compliment either.

what the fuck is wrong with "woman"?

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Response to Scout (Reply #148)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:37 PM

162. Nothing

But you know what? "Woman" can be said in a totally condescending tone as well. Context trumps the word.

Some people love language, nuance and not always being boring and saying the same old thing.

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Response to Scout (Reply #148)

Tue May 1, 2012, 05:52 PM

176. "The woman in red, is dancing with me, cheek to cheek..."

"First woman Michelle Obama"

"Women and gentlemen, may I have your attention..."

I guess those kind of work......

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Response to Scout (Reply #148)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:18 PM

188. Nothing wrong with the word "lady"

And a friend of mine refers to her rather large breasts as "the girls".
I'll try and find out for you if her breasts are offended...

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Response to zappaman (Reply #188)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:38 PM

197. That's disgraceful. She should refer to her boobies as "the women".

Oooops, is "boobies" offensive? Sorry!

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #197)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:47 PM

201. Ha!


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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #197)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:04 PM

205. The word "boobies" clearly belittles breasts.

 

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Response to zappaman (Reply #188)


Response to zappaman (Reply #188)

Mon May 7, 2012, 02:21 PM

442. it's all about context

i sometimes cringe when i hear the word lady because i was always admonished to "act like a lady" when i was a kid, as opposed to acting like a kid or a person.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #100)

Fri May 4, 2012, 06:41 AM

410. Oh, you better believe "lady" can be offensive as hell

I'm of the age group that grew up on constantly being told to "act like a lady", which meant keep your opinions to yourself (better to have no opinions at all about anything), don't do traditional "male" stuff, don't even think about having sex before marriage or think about sex for any reason at all other than to have babies, be deferential to men, look pretty, sit on a pedestal and smile and keep your mouth shut unless it's to agree with whatever anyone else says because everyone else - particularly males - are your superior.

Because of this I find the term "lady" to be far more offensive than "girl".


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #410)

Mon May 7, 2012, 02:31 PM

444. i just posted about "lady"

i can still hear the "act like a lady" crap i heard as a kid.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #91)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:40 PM

108. Actually, they're very simple, if you just keep two things in mind:

 

If you're a man and you say something, it's almost always wrong/bad/offensive/creepy/sexist.

If you're a woman and you say the exact same thing/something similar, it's always good/acceptable/empowering etc.

Those are the rules. Good luck.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #54)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:33 PM

101. no thankyou.

 

I'd rather be called other names than that.

lady. harumph! sounds like a dog's name

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #54)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:21 PM

155. Uh oh......re-education time.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #54)

Wed May 2, 2012, 04:20 AM

282. Cue the bad rock song...

Laaaaaaaady when I'm with you I'm smiling....wooa woooa woooa all alooooone.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:47 PM

57. I don't mind at all so long as the guys don't mind being called "boys" -

- and I sometimes call them that.

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Response to lynne (Reply #57)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:22 PM

156. You'd never here me object.

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Response to lynne (Reply #57)

Thu May 3, 2012, 08:43 PM

382. I have a friend in her 30's who still says "I met a boy!!!" and I think it's endearing



As several people have said, it's about the context.

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Response to Quixote1818 (Reply #382)

Thu May 3, 2012, 09:59 PM

391. What a misandrist!

 

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:47 PM

58. I picked B.

I have heard it used outside groups of friends in ways that are clearly not malicious at all. It's often playful or just colloquial.

But it can also be used as a weapon...sometimes in a way that grinds destructively over time. I agree with the poster above who said that context is everything.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 01:56 PM

70. "might sometimes be offensive"....

I like that word might in there.

For me it is all about context and age of both the parties in the scenario.


Just for a laugh, at my age now it's sometimes nice to be called a girl. Not so much when i was a young woman though, especially after I had 4 children.

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Response to Little Star (Reply #70)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:06 PM

83. Yes, context means so much...

and that makes these discussions tricky. But I do think they're important to have.

Especially when some people who are not members of the minority group in question go around declaring what is or is not acceptable based on... who knows what!

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:02 PM

76. Girls I don't mind

Its "Gals" I am not fond of.
I'm not sure why... I just dont like the sound of it for some reason

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Response to redqueen (Original post)


Response to seaglass (Reply #81)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:14 PM

86. Yes, the context of your taking offense is more personal...

less about societal conditioning and reinforcement than individual feelings and respect.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:39 PM

107. It's not the word, but the tone of voice, that tells you if you are being dissed

 

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Response to Demeter (Reply #107)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:24 PM

157. Damn true

Ever hear the word "woman" used in a very harsh tone? It can be the worst insult of all.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:44 PM

114. I don't care at all.

Can't even begin to care no matter how hard I try, as I sit here thinking hard about it. Nope. Still not caring. Not even a twinge.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #114)

Tue May 1, 2012, 02:49 PM

117. Then you must have serious self-respect issues.

 

At least, that's what a feminist said earlier in this thread about women who don't care.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #117)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:32 PM

139. I just decided a long time ago that

intent matters and that most people don't intend to insult. And, furthermore, I'm not insulted at all by it anyway. Something about being in the Army and a Fed, doing jobs that had been considered men's jobs made me focus on other things. I've never been an activist in that way. I've just lived my life and done quite well at it - in a man's profession, even though I'm a wife and mom as well.

I've got nothing to prove to myself or anyone else.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #139)

Tue May 1, 2012, 05:55 PM

178. That's a healthy attitude to have! Thanks for your post.

 

I've got nothing to prove to myself or anyone else.

Exactly what I was getting at.

Nothing but the utmost respect for what you've done and accomplished in life.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:11 PM

126. Is there a feminine equivalent to the word "guy"

Because I hear terms like "well the guys are going to go to the game with the girls" and in this case the male species is not referred to as "men" but as "guys."

"Woman/women" sounds much more formal (as does "men" while "guy/guys" sounds more casual.

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Response to tabbycat31 (Reply #126)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:26 PM

135. Gal. But I hate that word. Sounds too

country & western to me. I see Dale Evans in a very very old rerun when I hear the word gal.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #135)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:27 PM

158. Really? "Gal" got used a lot in all old movies

I remember Cary Grant and Jimmy Cagney saying it a few times......

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #158)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:07 PM

206. Yes, and "doll" and "broad", which we also cannot use anymore.

 

My film collection is misogynist!

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #206)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:39 PM

258. I think as long as you don't shove a grapefruit in her face......

....you should be ok.

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Response to tabbycat31 (Reply #126)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:31 PM

137. "Guys" denotes mature males....while "girls" aren't mature women.

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #137)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:16 PM

151. And this becomes a confusing issue for me.

My women friends and I refer to each other as guys. As in "Hi, guys!" What are you guys doing?" I've heard other women doing the same and also toward mixed groups as well.

I was under the impression that "guys" was becoming a gender neutral term for groups of people. Are we going wrong here, enforcing underlying patriarchal memes?

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Response to Hatchling (Reply #151)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:18 PM

153. calif i was raised with hi guys, for everyone. texas is hi yawl.....

 

it is something we joke about in this house. i hadnt noticed it until texan hubby pointed it out

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #153)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:42 PM

164. Opposite for me.

Born in Indiana of Southern born parents and it was Y'all or All y'all. Moved to California where it was guys.

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Response to Hatchling (Reply #151)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:30 PM

159. Being born in the north, but raised in the south from about 10 onwards,

I used "guys" as gender neutral until the move. Then I was told, "I'm not a guy", by females. Most of the time I hear the word ladies emphasized, almost like it's a joke. If you want to try a fun experiment, start taking notice if those that use "ladies" ever say "women".

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:27 PM

136. In my family

we women often playfully call each other girls – and the men often playfully call us girls too. It’s all in good fun, and no one intends “girls” as a slight. We often call the men in our family boys. We see nothing wrong with it, but we’d never call adult strangers or mere acquaintances “girls” and “boys.” Just close friends who feel the same way we do about it.

No one had better call me “old girl,” though.

To each his or her own.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:32 PM

138. Your poll went in a direction I did not expect.

Your poll went in a direction I did not expect. I think I may have to re-evaluate how liberally, and in front of whom, I continue to use the term.

These additional perspectives are always enlightening!

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #138)

Wed May 2, 2012, 11:42 AM

291. btw... i forgot about your post in all this mess of a thread. i wanted to ask

 

how did the poll do in a different direction. what do you have to reevaluate.

i always value what you have to say.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 03:45 PM

143. I have a pretty high tolerance for words of all kinds

unless they're used in a hateful or demeaning way. As for the term "girls," it doesn't really bother me.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:00 PM

145. No big deal. No deal at all. I actually have important things to concern myself with.

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #145)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:15 PM

150. like taking the time to post to tell everyone how many more important

things you have to concern yourself about!

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Response to Scout (Reply #150)

Wed May 2, 2012, 01:55 PM

295. +1

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Response to Scout (Reply #150)

Wed May 2, 2012, 04:38 PM

303. I just find this to be trivial to the point of being a non-issue. YMMV.

Always glad when I can make someone laugh, though. Not enough of that around here some days.

Have a good one!

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Response to WillowTree (Reply #303)

Wed May 2, 2012, 07:53 PM

307. well, then, why did you waste that valuable time to make people laugh on this thread?

You could have been doing something not "trivial" as you put it. Why are you here in the first place?

Maybe you should just restrict yourself to what your think are real "issue" problems, not this.

Hmmm....

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #307)

Wed May 2, 2012, 08:03 PM

310. I hope your day improves.

Or at least your mood.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:33 PM

161. Pass. Depends on the situation

If you would use the term "men" in a statement, never use "girls" in an equivalent statement. If you are talking about boys, girls is appropriate, as in "I'm going out with the boys (girls) tonight." Either way, this is a statement about taking a temporary vacation from adult responsibilities.

Ladies and gentlemen, not ladies and men.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)


Response to seaglass (Reply #163)

Tue May 1, 2012, 05:06 PM

171. seriously? lol. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #171)


Response to seaglass (Reply #335)

Thu May 3, 2012, 09:45 AM

336. you are a genius. you caught me copy and pasting the poster i replied to.

 

By Jove! I think you've diagnosed the issue exactly.

Everything is a code, a hint, a suggestion. He doesn't have non-consenting sex -- she cryptically said she wanted it by not saying she didn't want it -- just like we cryptically call all sex (with him?) assault.

Tricky, tricky girls. Devious things we are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=280184

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #336)


Response to seaglass (Reply #340)

Thu May 3, 2012, 10:25 AM

344. ah, copy and pasting is not a matter of excuses, but a reality.

 

this better explains my position. i am giving you the benefit of doubt this is not about attack, but understanding.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002631791#post10

and you comment about demean and judge IMO is pure bullshit. lol

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Response to seaglass (Reply #335)

Thu May 3, 2012, 09:53 AM

337. seaglas, if you have read any of my posts in this thread, you would recognize that i too

 

fell into the conditioned habit of calling women ... girls. i learned, recognized, acknowledged and i work on change.

i am not "hiding" anything here.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #337)


Response to seaglass (Reply #341)

Thu May 3, 2012, 10:26 AM

345. i think that is what i have done. nt

 

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Response to seaglass (Reply #341)

Thu May 3, 2012, 06:55 PM

368. That, right there, is the key, I think.

 

And even after learning possibly still not agreeing, but disagreeing respectfully.

I've tried to make that point a thousand time. They maintain that if you don't agree, you "don't get it" or "you need to be educated". They will not accept that some of us DO get it and ARE educated, but we just don't agree. But disagreement to them only means either you're unwilling to understand or too stupid to understand. So either way, you're f---ed and they're still superior.

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Response to seaglass (Reply #335)

Thu May 3, 2012, 06:40 PM

367. And that is not the worst part of that thread.

 

The real disgrace is that I got a post hidden because somebody alerted and took the subject-line of that one post deliberately out of context. And of course the jurors didn't bother to read the whole thread to read my previous, much more elaborate comments which gave a totally different picture of my thoughts than the one line the alerter abused to get me kicked out of the thread and brand me as someone I'm not.

My best friend in high school was a rape survivor. So is my cousin. Yet I have to sit here and be told I'm "condoning sexual assault" because I don't think consensual sex with an inexperienced girl is assault. Like they said it was assault when president Kennedy had sex with his secretary. So they tricked me in explaining my position, then alerted on me, had my post hidden and now I am 'branded'...

Some people on DU play these games. They go to great lenghts to blacken other good members. Character assassination is their preferred tool. Defamation and vilification are no strangers to them. And once you disagree with them in another thread, on another subject, all they have to do is point at the transparency page they helped to create by deliberately misrepresenting someone's views in the first place.

That's how they roll.

They're not interested in discussion. They're not interested in other people's points of view, unless those are in line with theirs. If they are, there will be no end to patting the other on the back, handing out compliments, spreading hugging emoticons etc. But when you're not in agreement, the only thing you'll get is "lol"-s, "rofl"-s, maybe a "Geez!" or "sigh" if you're lucky. That's not what I call a discussion.

If you don't agree with them on all issues all the time, you're a sexist and a misogynist.

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Response to seaglass (Reply #163)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:08 PM

182. Yes, that was my one and only reason...

I started this poll solely with the expectation that people would say things that I could go discuss elsewhere. And not because I cared at all about finding out what women on DU thought about this habit that so many people have.

You got me.

Good job, detective.



(Do I need a sarcasm tag here?)

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Response to redqueen (Reply #182)


Response to seaglass (Reply #163)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:16 PM

214. Well, since it's a public forum it's not technically 'behind their backs'...

 

Immature? Yes. But not behind anyone's back. Technically.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #214)


Response to seaglass (Reply #232)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:22 PM

242. That last thing goes without saying.

 

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 04:59 PM

169. I suppose it depends on the situation

Recently, I and a co-worker were referred to as "boys."

We're both in our mid- to late-50s and were talking when a 30-something woman walks up to us and said, "Pardon me, boys." She was asking directions.

Anyway, her voice and mannerisms were very Myrna Loy-esque and I it felt like I was in a "Thin Man" movie. She seemed to catch herself and smiled after she spoke, which I interpreted as an acknowledgment that she might have committed a faux pas, but I wasn't offended.



I almost responded with my best Bogart voice and said, "Sure, Sweetheart. What's on your mind?"


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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 05:07 PM

172. I think people should try not to get so offended all the time

It makes you old and bitter and nasty. It's much better to be called a girl than those ugly things.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #172)

Tue May 1, 2012, 05:54 PM

177. If the biggest problem someone has is being called a "girl" or a "lady"

then they are not doing too badly.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #177)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:00 PM

180. My Dad always had a smile on his face when he 'and the boys' (his words) were

to meet up for coffee and their weekly bullsh* session. The 'girls' at the nursing home lovingly refer to one another that way. Men are always telling us they feel so sorry that us 'girls' have to lift them into the ambulance. I think it's sweet, actually.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #177)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:11 PM

184. That silly rhetorical device is used way too often...

sometimes people discuss things besides the biggest problems they have, for all kinds of reasons.

Shocking news to some, I suppose.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #172)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:10 PM

183. Do you really think that was sneaky or subtle?



Might as well come out and say it.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #183)

Tue May 1, 2012, 08:56 PM

236. yeah...

I thought it was

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 05:22 PM

175. No problem with it at all. nt.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:06 PM

181. Funny, I just had this discussion last night with good friend who is a woman...

and took offense at my use of the term "girl" to describe a an adult female friend of mine. I do understand why it can be offensive to women but it has become ubiquitous in is use now... in TV, movies, magazines, books, etc... and lots of women use it also. To me its a term of endearment or even flattery.

However, I would never want anyone to call me a "boy"!

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Response to DCBob (Reply #181)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:13 PM

186. Since we all live in the patriarchy, terms which belittle women are ubiquitous, it is true.

They are everywhere.

And since all women grow up in the very same patriarchy, they mostly internalize those linguistic habits which so often shape our thoughts.

It's like The Matrix. http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4051

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Response to redqueen (Reply #186)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:17 PM

187. I also forgot to mention my friend "convinced" me not to use the term anymore..

at least not in her presence. She wouldnt feed me anymore if I did it again.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #187)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:19 PM

189. Hope you liked the comic!

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Response to redqueen (Reply #189)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:25 PM

192. Yes, very good.

Thanks for the link.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #186)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:21 PM

217. That darn patriarchy!

 

Bad patriarchy! Bad, bad!

I say we send patriarchy off to bed without dinner. That'll teach him.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:22 PM

191. I'm more sensitive to it because of DU

The use of the word "girl" is really noticeable on The Bachelor, but then again, that's a demeaning show to begin with. I agree with another poster who noted that context is important.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:37 PM

196. It's all about context

When my mom or dad refer to my sister and I as "the girls" (I am 50 and my sister is 43) ... I have no problem.

When the other project scientist in my group refers to the other two of us as "the girls" (again, I am 50 and my female co-worker is 30)... I take it in the condescending spirit in which it is intended ... it (in this case) is intended to diminish and infantalize two project scientists that are more skilled than he is.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:42 PM

199. I just use "you people" for everybody. I like to offend unilaterally.

Just joking.

I usually reserve "girls" for women I know well or or children and adolescents. "Ladies" is my choice in professional or social situations where I am not well acquainted with the women in question.

I really think a lot depends on the circumstance and the delivery. Condescension is always wrong no matter what words you use.

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Response to bluesbassman (Reply #199)

Tue May 1, 2012, 06:50 PM

202. a question

 

not an attack. not a correction. not a lecture. just a simple question because i am fascinated with this and i really want to hear why from others. i did this, too. and my hubby does it. and my two sons. we discussed it. not pointing fingers. not challenging you. and not telling you to change.... . did i cover it all? (not talking to you personally either, cause i think you can handle this question.)

oh, and it isnt the most important question in the world, or all of my world or make me angry, or anything else. K

""Ladies" is my choice in professional or social situations"

why would you choose lady in a professional environment. because, i am pretty sure we would say man, not gentleman in a professional environment. so why are you not comfortable with woman and use ladies?

again, i am not doing any of the stuff above. but i am curious.

i find a lot of people feel this way.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #202)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:03 PM

204. "Gentleman farmer" (nt)

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #202)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:07 PM

207. Good question.

I would use "ladies" when referring to a group, i.e. "Are you ladies going to be going out to lunch today"? Or "women" if I were to reference a group to a third party

If I was referring to a woman in talking to a third party, I would use "woman", i.e. "There is a woman on the second floor who may be able to help you".

That help?

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Response to bluesbassman (Reply #207)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:12 PM

211. interesting. thanks. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #202)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:30 PM

219. I use "gentlemen" to open my business emails to address the multiple males on my contact list....

...and have greeted multiple people at my facility as such. And yes, add "ladies" to that when a female is present.

Granted, I never went to Harvard or got an MBA, so maybe I'm being a rube.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #219)

Tue May 1, 2012, 07:33 PM

220. i dont get why the attitude is necessary. i really do not. and yes

 

there will be times that men and women in a group will be address ladies and gentlemen. i can even say often. that was not the point of my post, nor what i was asking. or the reason for the question.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #220)

Tue May 1, 2012, 08:23 PM

231. I'm sorry....what "attitude"?

I freely admit, I didn't attend business school nor any seminar that tells me how I should address people in those settings. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. I was simply being honest that it's possible I'm not following correct etiquette.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #231)

Tue May 1, 2012, 08:48 PM

235. as many posters have said, many of us did not realize the conditioning we have all fallen into using

 

girl when addressing a woman. so listen, learn, acknowledge and be aware.


it really is not so hard.

just as spade a spade and niggardly have nothing to do with african american, yet i dont use cause people perceive it to be.

or some are not comfortable with B**** so i have listened, learned, acknowledged and dont use.

i dont need a degree or attend a seminar

i have du


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Response to seabeyond (Reply #235)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:01 PM

237. Your question to the other poster specifically said "You don't use the term gentleman".....

...in a business setting, and I told you I did. Apparently you thought some sort of "conditioning" prevented that. Well, it hasn't for me. No one has objected or rebuked me for it. Maybe that doesn't fit your narrative, but so be it. I guess I'm somehow disrespecting someone, supposedly.

Apparently, it is hard for some of us, especially when the unwritten rules are becoming more arbitrary every day.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #237)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:05 PM

238. you are telling me, when you talk to the men in your office you use gentlemen and not men?

 

i have never worked in a work environment where gentlemen was the go to word. ever.

the gentleman at the front desk will help you. nah

the man at the front desk... yes

the lady at the first desk.... often

the woman at the front desk.... works

the girl at the front desk.... ya, that too.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #238)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:16 PM

240. Sorry, I do, I explained the situations I use it in my OP

...which I though you read.

So, where's my nearest re-education camp to fix this? Apparently I'm not doing it right.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #240)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:18 PM

241. So, where's my nearest re-education camp to fix this

 

i really dont play this game.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #240)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:26 PM

244. ROTFLMAO

 

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #231)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:25 PM

243. The attitude that you don't agree with her.

 

For shame, really!

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #243)


Response to seabeyond (Reply #246)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:29 PM

248. lol

 

[IMG][/IMG]

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #248)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:33 PM

251. you were the one that INSISTED on only THREE women on ALL of du had an issue with girls and ALL the

 

rest of du and the world had no problem with it at ALL.

right? that was you, right?

where is all this knowledge and brilliance of yours throughout the thread in observation and the poll proving your point?

not

yet you still prance around as if you know wtf you are talking about.

isnt it embarassing?

we even have a govt agency that says dont call women girls and you say.... well they are wrong. genius.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #251)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:34 PM

253. Hyperbole.

 

It´s not for the over-dramatic.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #253)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:36 PM

254. do you need a link. a quote to YOUR statement. talk about fuckin hyperbole. right in

 

front of your face and still, look the other way, nothing happening here.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #254)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:42 PM

260. ...

 

[IMG][/IMG]

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #260)


Response to seabeyond (Reply #264)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:46 PM

268. You're projecting.

 

Textbook example of projection if I ever saw one.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #268)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:48 PM

270. and still... i count more than THREE. but hey, ignore it. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #270)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:52 PM

275. Enjoy the flamefest by yourself. This is really below my standards.

 

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #275)

Tue May 1, 2012, 09:54 PM

276. THREE, in the whole wide world, only THREE women prefer to be called a

 

woman.

THREE

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #275)

Wed May 2, 2012, 09:37 AM

286. Dang, Dutch.

You have thousands of posts, so you must be a good Dem. You surely must be seeing the current unprecedented level of repug attacks vs. women.

The O.P. is talking about one fundamental reinforcing mechanism used by bad people, to keep doing bad things. It's about colonization of minds, (belittlement, infantilization, objectification, call it what you will), achieved through the language a person uses when addressing another person. The post doesn't even make a statement, it just asks DU women what they think. Everyone that uses that language isn't bad, but it is aiding the people who are thinking and doing bad. And using it because it is 'traditional', or 'no big deal', is lazy thinking at best.

Maybe Dworkin hurt you. But you're capable of making your own O.P. that addresses the excesses that you feel Feminists are guilty of perpetrating, instead of making umpteen postings on this one. Bitter infighting among Progressive Democratic allies serves no one.

VOChoice.org could use your energy (brains, fighting spirit), if you're willing to help women and Dems against the real bad guys, who are the repugs and not the Feminists. It's a very positive channel, check their org out.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #286)

Wed May 2, 2012, 11:13 AM

288. THANK YOU! nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #288)

Wed May 2, 2012, 11:26 AM

289. Solidarity, Red.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #289)

Wed May 2, 2012, 11:46 AM

292. i am asking if i can fall in love, another woman is saying mouth dropped open

 

thru out the whole reading of your post.

but what is significant about this, is your post is so obvious, and should be so normal. why on a progressive board are women flabbergasted to read your words? in the past, it would have been a norm.

that is something when the norm shifts so, that high praise comes from what should be a given.

example. parenting. especially when kids were younger, you would not believe how many people would mention what a GOOD parent i was. for merely doing my job.

i would say, this is not a pat on the back material. it should be expected. lol

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #292)

Thu May 3, 2012, 06:16 AM

318. Thanks, Sea.

I usually don't get praised for acting normal, or even get called normal, period, so it's a welcome change. But you're right. The ideas are simple and should be a given, should be expected -- at the very least on progressive boards, if not a 21st century developed society. Like good parenting.

The bad side never lost a fight that they don't come back to, once the heat dies down. They never forget a loss, and always try to reclaim their 'rightful' dominance. So progressives seem to be spinning their wheels, fighting rear guard actions, re-litigating settled issues. What a pain in the dupa.

We will still win anyway.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #286)

Wed May 2, 2012, 03:24 PM

298. Thanks for your post, I appreciate it.

 

(I didn't name any names in this post, so I hope I haven't offended anybody. I'm genuinely grateful for Mc Mike's post and the opportunity to clarify some things, so I hope nobody will be jerk and alert on it just because she/he might disagree with me.)

Yes, I'm very concerned, alarmed and disgusted at the GOP's war on women. I've told some friends over here how things are looking out for women in the States at the moment and they couldn't believe what I said. They were shocked. They, like me and probably most people in the US as well, thought that issues like birth control, a woman's right to decide over her own body, abortion etc. had all been settled in the 1960's and 1970's. Now someone who was a serious contender for the presidency had questioned all these things. Not to mention the onslaught on womens' rights in Mississippi (closing their own abortion clinic) and Arizona (reversing Equal Pay laws) and that other state where vaginal probes are now mandatory if a woman needs an abortion.

I'm with every woman who opposes this backward and dangerous trend. I must admit I don't think very highly of president Obama anymore (I feel like he has continued too much of Bush's policies), but the no.1 reason I want him to defeat Mitt Romney is to make sure women's rights won't be trampled on any further. I also hope he gets the chance to replace Scalia on the Supreme Court with another progressive, maybe another woman, who will rule more favorably for women's rights.

I have always considered myself 'a feminist man'. I have always supported feminist issues, like equal pay for equal work; more women in high political office; more women in management positions; affordable daycare for the kids to make working easier; fully paid maternity leave; and of course the right every woman has to decide for herself over her own body, which in my book, should be a given.

The reason you see "bitter infighting" in this thread between me and a couple of other members, is because these members work relentlessly to paint me as a sexist, a misogynist, a woman-hater and what have you not, because I don't agree with their, what I consider, radical points of view on some issues. I don't think I'm a pig because I think prostitution should be legal. I don't think I'm enabling abuse and exploitation of women because I don't have any problems with pornography. And those are just the issues where I can see and understand their points of view, for which they offer legitimate arguments --even though I don't agree with them. But even asking a girl out at work is now deemed "a form of coercion" on DU; not calling sex with a virgin rape is now considered "creepy" and "condoning sexual assault"; and now even calling your best friend a 'girl' is "belittling and devaluing".

I see this thread as part of a concerted effort on DU by a tiny, but vocal minority, to make anything men do or say toward women suspicious, creepy or even harmful. Everything that is deemed perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of people is now under attack because of conspiracy theories about 'The Patriarchy' that has us all indoctrinated. But our three or four brave little warriors are continuing to educate us until we "get it". Forget that there are lots of people who simply don't agree with these theories; they are labeled as dumb f---s who "don't get it." Condescending. (And then turning around and say WE are condescending.)

They work hard to push their morals on others and they constantly belittle anybody who doesn't agree with them. For instance, because I don't agree prostitution should remain illegal, I am "arguing like a true sweatshop advocate" whose only interest is "to be able to have women do only as you please". Oh, and apparently because of my position on prostitution, I see women as "semen receptables". I have to read that kind of shit every goddamn time and it's all allowed to stand, but if all do is disagreeing with someone on the appropriateness of asking a woman out at work, an alert is send saying I'm "a serial sexist offender" and that I "don't think women deserve any respect" and my post gets hidden. Just for disagreeing, I think women don't deserve respect. Apparently.

But the feminists who complain the most about how little respect men have for women (for not minding porn, or for not minding prostitution), are the first to slam other women who disagree with them. Just look upthread and you'll see posts of women writing that other women who don't mind the word 'girl' are "seriously lacking in self-respect". In other words: we, self-appointed feminists, will decide for other women what they should think and when they should be offended. And then THEY turn around and claim the moral highground?

THAT'S the reason I no longer wish to associate myself with the label 'a feminist man'. Of course I still support the issues I've always supported and I'll always rail against the GOP when it comes to their war on women, but I now reject the label 'feminist' because I think, at least on DU3, it stands for looking down on people who make different choices in lifestyle; it stands for pushing your morals onto others; it stands for insulting men, ALL men.

"All men are potential rapists" I've read on DU3. And it was said by someone in this thread who's now using misplaced sarcasm to point fingers at others. That's where my defensive attitude comes from. I'm their ally on feminist issues. They insist seeing me as a sexist and misogynist because I don't kowtow to all of their whims. That's all.

(And the sad thing is I'm afraid to hit the 'post reply' button, because I'm sure someone will alert on this, citing only the last paragraph and my transparency page and jurors will hide it without even reading the post. Wouldn't be the first time.)

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #298)

Wed May 2, 2012, 03:31 PM

299. My God.

There is so much misrepresentation in that post.

Amazing.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #299)

Wed May 2, 2012, 07:08 PM

304. Really? The attack-mode, immediately, again?

 

This, to me, proves to me you have no interest in an honest discussion/conversation. At all. If you had, you wouldn't have made that post. You would have written an answer, instead of an accusation. Yet another one.

What is there in my post that isn't true? Didn't women in this thread who said they didn't mind the word 'girl' get schooled by other feminists who said those women had "serious self-respect issues"? Didn't a prolific DU feminist say that "all men are potential rapists"? Didn't one of DU's feminists tell me, after I defended my stance of legalizing prostitution: "spoken like a true sweatshop defender"? Didn't a DU feminist say that, if she had her way, she would force adult women in the porn business to undergo therapy and even have them committed because they clearly were incapable of making the right choice? I'm not paraphrasing here, I'm quoting. This has been said and argued on DU.

Self-proclaimed feminists have advocated for taking away womens' agency because those women didn't make the choices in life the feminists wanted them to make. And then they turned around and blamed 'The Patriarchy' for taking away womens' rights --by horrible means, like using the word 'girl'. Do you deny this happened on DU? If you do, you're not telling the truth.

Maybe it's time to look into a mirror instead of saying everybody in the world except you is wrong.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #298)

Thu May 3, 2012, 06:49 AM

319. I guess I should not 'try to teach my grandpa how to suck eggs', but

maybe try to do an OP on fair vs. unfair allegations of sexism.

It looks like you feel hurt by past non-alertable or TS-able arguments. I've read DU for years, but so much is posted, that I've never seen those arguments. I looked in on this OP, to see how DU women feel, so I'm intruding a bit here. But the sheer volume of the posts you're doing here is doing no good, it comes off like angry revenge.

If you du e-mail me, I'll use it like a caucus option, to comment on your #298 post. But I can't exchange opinions on those issues here, because it would feel like a thread hijack. I'll be happy to talk to you later, or post my opinions on your OP, I just can't talk anymore to you in this space.

Women's rights activists can't force anyone to kow tow to them, because they aren't in the driver's seat. Simple power dynamics.

Have a good one, brother.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #319)

Thu May 3, 2012, 06:56 AM

321. Not that you asked for my opinion,

But that is one thread hijack I would not mind at all. It seems to me it might be beneficial for others to be able to read if they are interested.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #321)

Thu May 3, 2012, 07:12 AM

323. If I have your o.k., will do.

Last edited Thu May 3, 2012, 10:49 AM - Edit history (1)

On edit, added: it just occurred to me how truly polite you were being to me, in 321. You didn't ask for my opinion in the OP, and I sneaked in anyhow. Then you prefaced your 321 with an extremely polite 'not that you asked for my opinion', and it's your own OP! I always wanted your opinion, that's why I looked in. Dutch should see this, I can't yet see how your side of the debate is wrong, or even inpolite.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #323)

Thu May 3, 2012, 07:49 AM

325. Oh you have more than my ok.

You have my appreciation.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #319)

Thu May 3, 2012, 08:56 AM

329. Why is my 'sheer volume of posts' "angry revenge" and, for example, seabeyond's isn't?

 

seabeyond has made as much posts, if not more, in this thread. But she's not being accused of "angry revenge", is she?

I thought your post was sincere, but maybe I was wrong. If you look at my posts in this thread in which I argue, with arguments, you know, ideas and such, and then say they're "angry revenge", I start getting doubts you are as impartial as you made yourself out to be.

Up-thread, I've argued why it is condescending of self-proclaimed feminists to belittle other women, saying they "have serious self-respect issues". In the post you were replying to, I've gone to great lenghts to explain where I stand with regard to feminist issues and how I see them getting corrupted by a small but vocal minority on this website. And I've backed up my claims. What responses do I get? Either nothing, or the two standard responses the two most vocal feminists on this thread ALWAYS resort to:

"Sweet Jesus", "My God", "Sigh" (redqueen) or "lol", "rofl", "lmao" (seabeyond)

Real gems, eh? That's the ONLY answer they EVER give when faced with arguments, ideas and theories that don't agree with them.

Just look at what seabeyond wrote in response a post of mine down-thread: more trolling. More trying to get a rise out of me. Getting a rise out of people is what she does whenever they don't agree with her. She's been playing this childish game with me throughout the entire thread. Just look for it yourself, I've had to break off two possible flamewars that she wanted to instigate with her trollish behavior. She's stalking me throughout the entire thread childishly trying to get a rise out of me.

... and then I'M the one who's looking for "angry revenge"?

Please...

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #329)

Thu May 3, 2012, 03:46 PM

358. That was just my impression, not meant as an indictment.

I addressed all of 298, in as full detail as possible, with as many facts (opinions, ideas) as possible, so you know where I'm coming from. I said the points and ideas where I thought you were right, and said the points where I thought Red and sea were right. As a non-judge and non-jury member on DU, that's all I can do. It seemed to me like angry revenge and vituperation from you because both us boys (or men) shined in on this thread, which was asking for women's opinions, and sea is a woman, so it's her home court. If you post a male-issue op (I suggested it before), I'll show up to post. If I like it, I'll rec it, like I recced this op. I'll stick up for anyone I think is right. Maybe you will be pleasantly surprised, and find out this gender war is over.

You are free to doubt me, this is America (maybe you're in the Neatherlands, but they're pretty free, and you're American). But it stretches credulity to posit that I'm secretly a woman, involved in misrepresenting myself as a man, to lull you into false expectations of sincerity and impartial fairness. Try typing Mike Mc or Mc Mike into the search box, top left. I usually don't shine in on Women's issues at all on this site, but still recommend VOCHOICE.org to my allies that fight against the repug 1%'s War on Women.

I've gone to great lengths to explain my side with you, arguments, ideas theories. My side is not 100% the same as Red and Sea's necessarily, but they've both been very polite to me. They are everything could ask for in a 99% issue ally. They and I don't have a past, like you and they have. If I did, I wouldn't seek their thread out, because nobody is changing anybody's mind, and nobody will hit ignore or declare armistice. Check out Red's response to my initial reply to your #298. I'll take that kind of 'condescension' anytime, it's actually regal. Your ideas tell me that you also are a good 99% issue ally, and I never throw away a good ally without a lot more cause than my perception of your anger has given me. Even if they give me a rolly eye icon, to boot. We don't disagree on a terribly large amount of ideas, as far as I can see.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #298)

Thu May 3, 2012, 08:21 AM

328. 2nd re to 298, per Red's 321

If you went with your second para in your post, (or first non-bracketed para), then full stop, I'd second that emotion 100%. Or 99%, to use the current vernacular. It's possible I live in that 'other state' you referred to, because I'm in PA. Most of the women who are my family members, relatives, and friends live in PA under Repug Gov. 'Close Your Eyes' Corbett and his mandatory t.v. ultrasounds, which of course the repugs force the US citizen to buy. Despite their opposition to health care forced buy mandates, 'intrusive' big government, big government take-over of health care, and all other forms of pre-natal care. (That Opus Dei sheisskopf santorum actually campaigned on this! Really.) It's also possible that you're talking about Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Virginia, because in the life's a blur or repuglicans and red-meat (to paraphrase Zippy). You're hurt and mad because someone attacked you verbally or through print. I'm mad that Corbett is hurting even a woman who is a complete stranger to me way over in Philly, let alone my loved ones. You may be madder, but who's hurt more?

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #328)

Thu May 3, 2012, 09:07 AM

331. You're mixing up two totally different things.

 

You're hurt and mad because someone attacked you verbally or through print. I'm mad that Corbett is hurting even a woman who is a complete stranger to me way over in Philly, let alone my loved ones. You may be madder, but who's hurt more?

That's demagoguery.

What's happening with regard to womens' rights being trampled on is one thing. What's happening on DU with a tiny minority trying to shove their morals upon everybody else is something different entirely. The second has no relation to the first. I will never give up my opposition to the GOP's war on women. I will never give up my support for most feminist issues.

So, how does caring for womens' rights conflict with pointing out the hypocrisy and the belligerence of some feminists on DU? I don't see it.

I'm not hurt or mad because somebody attacked ME. I'm mad that a tiny fraction of self-proclaimed feminists on this website are trying to shove their morals down everybody's throats and that they insult, denigrate, belittle, ridicule and devalue everybody who disagrees with them --not only men, they do it to other WOMEN as well! They say things like: "they're lacking self-respect", "they are conditioned to think that way" (meaning: if we 'school' them, they'll finally 'see the light', meaning: 'they're in the dark now') or even "If I had my way, those women [in the porn business] would be forced to undergo therapy, because they can't make decisions of their own."

Feminists. Looking down to and talking down to other adult women. Then turning around to blame me and other men for looking down to and talking down to women.

It's not that I'm hurt. It's the hypocrisy, the misplaced sarcasm and the hugely out of place holier-than-thou attitude that I cannot stand.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #331)

Thu May 3, 2012, 04:56 PM

364. I'm sorry you feel that way. It wasn't meant as an attack.

I'm not trying to demagogue you, just putting it in perspective (and just my perspective). The two issues are gender and equality issues, and from what your post 298 said, I felt we were both mad about the War on Women, and were allies. I still feel that, from this current post 331. The answer to who hurts more, is 'that stranger in Philly', who's being physically attacked by that Barney Rubble looking swine Corbett. I suggest tabling the disagreement about rhetoric, while we're busy pounding the repugs into rubble, as allies.

I don't see the Women's Issue posters' as having hypocrisy. They are trying to frame the issues so as to achieve progress, or at very least fight off the nazis' moves against women and us all. I don't see you as having hypocrisy. I see the hypocrisy of the 'pro-life' repug 1%, who 'care' about that fetus as a human, until month nine. After that, let the little welfare fraud starve. They just want control over the reproductive rights of the 99%. On one hand, the repugs are saying 'if I had my way, those women would be forced to undergo state mandated rape, and have to pay for it.' On the other hand, since the women here are all just interacting on line, there is little chance of any 'Maoist Feminist Separatist' re-education camp style 'forced therapy'. From my perspective,there's only one real threat here, and I wish all allies would declare armistice, go separate paths, and fight the bad guys together, even if on different fronts.

That's it Dutch. I'm all tuckered out. We could make a 15 page booklet between our postings here, but probably no one would read it. I again respectfully suggest abandoning this thread we hijacked, and if you o.p., I'll weigh in. As succintly as possible, unlike this time. I have no disrespect toward you, we just disagree on the significance\importance of certain methods used by people to address other people. And maybe a little about which issues to expend energy on in defending peoples' rights, and which targets to use that energy against.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #298)

Thu May 3, 2012, 09:02 AM

330. Third para, fourth para

Last edited Wed Nov 23, 2016, 08:29 AM - Edit history (1)

I back Obama, through Labor, Spring, and Occupy, but not with his official campaign. I don't want to get too cozy, because I want to pressure the shyte out of him once we get him his second term. His campaign isn't paying me, and I don't try to hijack any Occupy or Spring actions vs. the 1%, but my co-protest activists (allies) know where I stand. Scalia could be replaced with a paper weight, and it would be an improvement. But you're right, a woman appointee would be great. Call Rose Bird out of forced retirement, she rocked. That's why repug govs Wilson and Dukemeijan targeted and eliminated her from the bench. A 5 woman 4 man court would be more populationally representative, and we all love Democracy.

I don't call myself a feminist, I self-appelate as 100% Equal Rights, including LGBT. I'm a straight guy, but both groups are my allies. It sure doesn't hurt me to see that my allies get all of their rights. Since I work heavy construction, commercial and industrial, saying I'm a 'feminist' isn't the best outreach method to a bunch of fun loving guys, but my Coalition of Labor Union Women allies see me backing them on the job sites. The boys might not like it, but they'll fight about anything anyhow, even moronic stuff like use of company tools. So at least if they have a problem with equal rights for women co-workers, at least we're fighting about something important. I agree with your 4th para sentiments mostly, except that daycare is a labor issue, not a Women's only issue. And equal co-parenting in employment law would be a tremendous advance for men and women, the family, society, labor, and the world. Probably the Scandinavians will have to get on that one, we're too primitive over here currently.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #298)

Thu May 3, 2012, 10:38 AM

348. 5th para, prostitution:

Last edited Wed Nov 23, 2016, 08:34 AM - Edit history (2)

I mentioned in the 'DU e-mail caucus offer' reply that I missed all the former fights, because this site has a ton of postings on it all the time. Half the time I can't figure out if the poster is man or woman. I think Mad talked to me twice, and I don't know where she went, but she was the tops in sentiment, politics, and output. I like D & P, but haven't 'seen' her lately. I had frequent positive interactions with S1 and A I '03, and I thought JDP was a guy while we were cross posting, for the longest time.

So, on porn and prostitution. I've looked at porn. I never 'patronized'* a prostitute (*Interesting word). I went to one strip club in San Diego, one time, due to quite a bit of coercion by my non-union construction company bosses. We were building a high rise hotel near Old Town (north west San Diego). Amusingly, the same characters also tried to sell and get me hooked on crystal meth (crank). The strip club was no fun for me, because if you're lonely, you just wind up feeling wistful, doing something like that.

Kurt Vonnegut's Rabo Karabekian character bragged to a woman that he loved about all the romantic conquests he had during WWII combat operations, and she said "Let me guess. Everywhere you went, the men were dead, and the women were trying to feed themselves and their starving children." Everywhere the US military bases itself, prostitution dens spring up. R and R for the boys, get them feeling sexy and juiced up so they can get back to work. (I strongly doubt there are any 'Midnight Cowboys' out there slinging for our active duty women personnel.) That r & r is a security risk that frankly degrades our national security and fighting capability, but the same repugs that don't care about that are crying about letting lesbian and gay soldiers have consensual sex in the same military. The GOP: wrong about everything, all the time, at the top of their lungs.

I'm no Holy Roller like Santorum, though I'm a practicing Catholic. The anti-Woman pro-nazi faction in my religion has been in charge of that outfit since they bumped off John 23 and J.P. 1, but they'll leave or kick me out before I leave. They also get zero in weekly donations from me, because they have more money than God. The hierarchy is busy socking it to the nuns, because they dared to oppose the repug and Vatican attack on Women's health. Hell, the hierarchy is shutting down the convent and grade school a couple of blocks up, flushing St. Mary's sisters down the tubes, and that's just a real estate business profit-motivated move. This whole section is a real digression on the issues at hand, but to me, Saint Mary is the Catholic version of Woman God.

Anyway, as a non-holy-roller, I think God's a woman as much as a man. But I don't think that I have the right to tell someone else what they can and can't do with their sexuality, God didn't speak to me like Joan of Arc (or l'il bush, Santorum, Perry, Bachmann, Cain, etc.). I do think in the bottom of "patron's" hearts, they know that the prostitute needs the money, even if they're not supporting dependants and not a drug user, even if they are earning on the jet-set end of the sex trade scale. When they 'oooh ooh baby', even really convincingly, it's because they need money and don't have it, and the 'customer' has money and won't give it otherwise. I had a Shane MacGowan 'Old Main Drag' moment once, decades ago, and that's all I'll ever say about that. Period.

It really frosts me that people who have expendable income see fellow humans who are in need, and think 'I could use them to have a good time, and release some endorphins.' No love. I strongly regard the mass of 'patrons' as an unfriendly 'occupying' force, like the nazis in WWII Paris, or the US in the SE Asia bungle in the jungle. They have it, our people need it, so our people have to do what they want. This is wealthier Americans in an unfriendly occupation of other Americans' neighborhoods and community. I love Lenny Bruce, so I don't oppose his 'matter of fact' approach in prostitution patronage. He was probably among the least offensive of his prostitutes' clients, but I bet his women kin didn't appreciate it. In short, prostitution is just not for me, personally. I can't regulate other people's behavior, but if I could pay a prostitute to not have sex with the hostile occupiers, I would.

On edit, fixed so the 4th para would show up. It was glitching.

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Response to DutchLiberal (Reply #298)

Thu May 3, 2012, 11:24 AM

350. 5th para, porn:

Last edited Wed Nov 23, 2016, 08:37 AM - Edit history (1)

I admit to having seen a good deal of porn. At the bottom of my heart, I know that it's pictures of prostitution, so I have indirectly patronized prostitutes, though I just said that I never went with a prostitute (I meant physically, in reality). My paying for it means that I encouraged the producers to make more, and I was wrong to do that.

Flynt, Hefner, and Gucchione work for government psy-ops as well as the mob, in my opinion. Castle Bank, the Wer Bell hit attempt by Flynt, the linking of progressive investigative journalism to 'pornographic thinking', all the signs are there. It's an attempt by the 1% to eliminate love from 'love-making'. It should not escape notice that the thought crime Winston and Julia committed in Orwell's "1984" was that they looked at each other during the two-minute hate and thought 'I love you' instead of 'I hate and fear you'. Porn is the nazi's way of keeping two people from love, because when they love each other, it fucks with the 1%'s hegemony. They fill in for each other's blind spots, they see right through the rulers' bull shit, and they're an unstoppable force. Bad for business.

Porn has gotten progressively more detailed and graphic as the years have progressed. It also attempts to splinter human sexuality into dozens of distinct kinks. Most porn is consumed by straight and gay men, but if any man or woman does want to consume porn, it sure isn't my call on how they should conduct themselves. Porn consumers may find that their physical and mental sexual state requires more extreme stimulation, like if someone tapped you on the shoulder all day, your shoulder nerves would get numb, so they'd have to tap you harder and harder to get your attention.

The porn-pros escalate you from one beautiful person, to you have to have two other partners to get turned on, then you need an orgy, or you need a foot fetish, or bondage, or very old, or very young, or very heavy, or the smell of roses, etc. ad nauseum. If you ever looked at a straight 'gentleman's' magazine, and suddenly came across an ad for a hermaphroditic or mid-surgery transgender, you probably weren't expecting it from the cover of the mag, but that is the propagandists trolling to lead you down one of their dozens of kinks, banking on you being harder