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http://apnews.excite.com/article/20150309/as--japan-wwii-firebombing-9e240aaab0.html
Mar 9, 4:03 AM (ET)
By ELAINE KURTENBACH and MARI YAMAGUCHI
TOKYO (AP) It was not Hiroshima or Nagasaki, but in many ways, including lives lost, it was just as horrific.
On March 10, 1945, U.S. B-29 bombers flew over Tokyo in the dead of night, dumping massive payloads of cluster bombs equipped with a then-recent invention: napalm. A fifth of Tokyo was left a smoldering expanse of charred bodies and rubble.
This combination of two photos shows initial destruction and reconstruction after the March 10, 1945 firebombing. The top photo taken on March 19, 1945 shows survivors commute through destroyed Nakamise shopping street after Tokyo firebombing. The bottom photo taken 70 years later on March 7, 2015, shows a visitor prays toward Sensoji Temple at the start of the Nakamise shopping street in Asakusa district in Tokyo. (AP Photo/The Center of the Tokyo Raids and War Damage, Eugene Hoshiko)
Today, a modest floral monument in a downtown park honors the spirits of the 105,400 confirmed dead, many interred in common graves.
It was the deadliest conventional air raid ever, worse than Nagasaki and on par with Hiroshima. But the attack, and similar ones that followed in more than 60 other Japanese cities, have received little attention, eclipsed by the atomic bombings and Japan's postwar rush to rebuild.
FULL story at link.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 9, 2015, 09:47 PM - Edit history (1)
"The Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo on the night of 9 March 1945 was the single deadliest air raid of World War II,[2] greater than Dresden,[21] Hiroshima, or Nagasaki as single events"
In a single night:
- 1665 tons of explosive, including napalm, jellied gas and white phosphorus
- 100K dead, >125K injured
- 1 million homeless
- 15.8 sq miles burned/destroyed
Tokyo had >100K inhabitants per square mile at the time, so the death/injury estimates may in fact be low. Both the US and Japan had reason to minimize them.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)since after all we did it, not them.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)It was an accepted military tactic, one of the premises of strategic bombing was break the will of the citizenry,
which came from the pre-WWII theories of several people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing
I'll note that the Germans tried to break the will of the Britsh citizenry as well, but through the bravery of the RAF, the stubborness of the British and the lack of any heavy bombers, Germany failed.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)War begets atrocity, by all sides. That's why we should endeavor never to start one.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)Tokyo was the capitol of Japan. Kobe was one of its largest naval ports. Yokohama was a major industrial center. Even Hiroshima and Nagasaki made major contributions toward the war effort. One could easily argue that these were legitimate targets during a major war.
Dresden, which was considered one of the most beautiful cities in Europe (it was sometimes referred to as "Germany's Paris" or "Florence on the Elbe" had little industrial capacity, no military capacity, and was not a major hub for...well, anything really. It's bombing was purely psychological, and its destruction was planned solely to break German spirits. The industrial areas and rail yards that it did posses existed on the fringes of town and in the suburbs, and were not even targeted in the initial bombings. In fact, it's industrial area wasn't even hit until the last night of the bombing, and even then with only one wave of bombers. It was so unimportant that the Allies saw bombing the civilian areas as a more critical use of their bombers time. While the Allies officially claimed that Dresden was a "Nazi communication hub", that too dramatically overstates its reality. Dresden was such a militarily unimportant target that it had escaped bombing during much of the war. By February 1945, it was simply the last major German city that still had a functional telephone system.
The firebombing of Dresden constituted the deliberate targeting and destruction of civilian areas and civilian populations to produce no military objective beyond generating fear and despair in the German civilian population. While it certainly wasn't the only city targeted that way, it was the largest and most glaring example.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)It moved me to tears.
The family of a former (now retired) co-worker of mine went through a similar ordeal-- he was a baby in Hiroshima when the Bomb was dropped. His sister, who was outside playing, was apparently vaporized. Their house collapsed on him and his mother, and they had to be rescued by neighbors. His brother had been on a school excursion and missed the bomb. Imagine what horrible scene awaited him after he returned from his trip!
I also met a lady from Ibaraki who told me of her experience watching the bombing of a nearby airbase and surrounding area. It sounded really horrible.
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)Xithras
(16,191 posts)The fact that it was done in anime is secondary, but simply makes it that much more powerful.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Thank you for posting it.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)General Sherman was one of the first US Generals to specifically target cities & civilians instead of armies and he is considered a great hero to this day.
It's all okay as long as you are on the winning side.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)His scorched earth policy in Georgia was one reason why the South was so messed up after the war.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Italy and Germany both had strategic bombing campaigns targeting cities. The war crimes trials did not include those acts as war crimes because they are not considered such.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)"Leave nothing to invite the enemy to return.... Let the valley be left so that crows flying over it will have to carry their rations long with them." Lt. General Ulysses Grant
kwassa
(23,340 posts)There was not a massive civilian death toll like the aerial bombings of WWII. His troops did strip the land of food for his army.
This is what Sherman did :
The March to the Sea was devastating to Georgia and the Confederacy. Sherman himself estimated that the campaign had inflicted $100 million (about $1.4 billion in 2010 dollars)[17] in destruction, about one fifth of which "inured to our advantage" while the "remainder is simple waste and destruction."[16] The Army wrecked 300 miles (480 km) of railroad and numerous bridges and miles of telegraph lines. It seized 5,000 horses, 4,000 mules, and 13,000 head of cattle. It confiscated 9.5 million pounds of corn and 10.5 million pounds of fodder, and destroyed uncounted cotton gins and mills.[18] Military historians Herman Hattaway and Archer Jones cited the significant damage wrought to railroads and Southern logistics in the campaign and stated that "Sherman's raid succeeded in 'knocking the Confederate war effort to pieces'."[19] David J. Eicher wrote that "Sherman had accomplished an amazing task. He had defied military principles by operating deep within enemy territory and without lines of supply or communication. He destroyed much of the South's potential and psychology to wage war."[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman's_March_to_the_Sea
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Southern plantation owners (you remember those guys; they're the ones that owned the slaves and started the war in the first place) were not selling food stuffs to their fellow southerners because runaway inflation as the South was losing on all fronts made Confederate dollars worthless. Sherman found the country full of food while people in the cities were starving. He started collecting more food than his army needed so he could feed southern civilians. Contemporary southern newspapers and diaries hailed Sherman a hero.
Many of those very same southern diaries years later reminisce about how the horrors of Sherman's March to the Sea. Propaganda works.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Japan brought this upon herself.
bhikkhu
(10,715 posts)to oversimplify...
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)committing multiple war crimes in the process, shit tends to happen in the hell of war.
An analogy would be a child rapist getting punched a few too many times when caught in the act. Would that be right? No. But it would be kind of understandable.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Name me one imperial power that didn't commit multiple war crimes in its quest for empire.
bhikkhu
(10,715 posts)Its handy when you win a war and get to shuffle your own atrocities under the rug. I'm glad we live in a different age, and things like that seem horrifyingly foreign and unforgivable.
More detailed histories of all that are pretty hair-raising and depressing. Its no more common knowledge than the fire-bombing campaign against Japan in WWII. In the case of the Phillipines, however, we can't really point to anything the other side did wrong except to want their freedom.
Read "we did" rather than "we do". In that case, a comprehensive treatment is given in Pinker's book "Our Better Angels; Why Violence Has Declined". It doesn't seem so, as we can consume our fill of violence and tragedy daily in the media, but wars, crime, violence of all sorts has been on a long decline for the last 65 years or so. Its a different world, objectively.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Of course your inner jingo makes you incapable of detecting the irony of your words.
stone space
(6,498 posts)...all of the neighbors of the rapist having their homes bombed.
Would that be right? No.
Would it be understandable?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)as long as the dead are not white Christians.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Thousands of innocent people were killed in these attacks.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I pointed out that stuff like this tends to happen when a country decides to engage in a vicious war of aggression.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)serial child rapists getting just desserts. You most certainly condoned and engaged in apologia for the slaughter. Refer back to your first post in this sub thread.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)The rest of your words belie you.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)to "getting his just deserts". But whatever.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)That is such a tired ploy. Your opening salvo was "Japan brought it upon herself."
You justified and excused it and then compared thousand of dead innocent people to serial child rapists.
You aren't fooling anyone. Your game is too cute by half. The half being when you write what you honestly think. Of course you are called out and, rightfully, a little embarrassed by it. Then you come back with "oh poor little misunderstood me. That's not what I meant. I'm not really a calloused racist."
Own your words or keep them the fuck to yourself.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I own that wording, stand by it 100%, and am not in the least "embarrassed" by it.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)You are falling over yourself to defend, excuse and justify the massacre of non-whites.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)just for the hell of it.
Again, I own and stand by every word I have written in this thread.
stone space
(6,498 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)on the Asian mainland. Killed on the order of 10 million people.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Innocent people who have done absolutely nothing wrong are being compared with somebody who rapes a child in that analogy.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
I just can't wrap my head around that particular analogy.
In what way are innocent civilians like child rapists?
Romulox
(25,960 posts)A certain poster to this site loudly condemns any mention of same, as well.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)and it's not easy to imagine such people committing horrible atrocities. But they did, and they were truly awful.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)The Japanese have (with some success) recast themselves as the passive victims of WWII. Their collective amnesia marries with our collective ignorance to form a bizarre, ahistorical narrative about the war--one in which the people of Japan did not nearly uniformly support imperial occupation and genocide on the Asian mainland for decades leading up to the events of WWII.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)The most important thing is to reimagine historical events according to modern sensibilities and with the benefit of seven decades of hindsight.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)niyad
(113,262 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)This part seems buried down in the end of the story. I thought they were talking about the world in general, or the US in particular.
madville
(7,408 posts)The Japanese killed 10 million in Asia, the Germans killed 6 million Jews, we dropped some atomic bombs and napalm.
I find living in the past to be rather depressing, it can't be changed.
How come we aren't still talking about or apologizing for how Sherman torched Atlanta? Because that shit's ancient history and war is a savage endeavor.
Their goal wasn't to physically burn down the Japanese cities, it was more psychological, to demoralize the population and military and break their will.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)romanic
(2,841 posts)I agree 100% with everything you said.
stone space
(6,498 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Definitions with special pleadings are a bit too self-serving for my tastes.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Every definition should have a proof.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)have any.
stone space
(6,498 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)ter-ror-ism
noun
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism
Archae
(46,318 posts)Japan was a ruthless, fascist dictatorship.
Italy was even worse, and Nazi Germany was the worst of all.
Guided weapons were in their first stages of development, if they were there at all.
In fact the only reliable guided weapons were used by Japan, yes, the Kamikaze.
It was a fight to the finish, between the Allies (who mostly were democracies,) and the Axis, who would have taken over the world, perverting everything they touched.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)at least for some folks.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)If they didn't want to be firebombed they shouldn't of declared war.
TheSarcastinator
(854 posts)USA! USA!
PS: that whole approach really hasn't worked out so well for us since then, has it?
catbyte
(34,373 posts)I hate all war, but my dad was a Marine Raider, 1st Marine Division, and was involved in many Pacific battles from Guadalcanal to Okinawa. He never spoke about his experiences until the last 6 months of his life as he was dying from ALS. He and his buddies would start talking about the war, and what they said shocked the hell out of me. The Japanese treatment of the civilian populations on those islands was horrific, and they needed to be stopped. The Japanese people were all prepared to die for their emperor, as evidenced in the mass suicides on Okinawa that my dad witnessed. My dad was in San Diego waiting to be shipped out for an invasion of mainland Japan when they dropped The Bomb. He fully expected to die there. What dad saw and did there effected him for the rest of his life. Before the war, he was an avid hunter. After the war, he never killed another animal. When grandad asked him why, he said that he had seen and caused enough death to last 10 lifetimes and he just couldn't do it anymore. There were no easy answers, and hindsight is always 20/20. On a more selfish note, if the US hadn't done what they did, I most likely would not be writing this post.
Omaha Steve
(99,584 posts)He came home on points just before the bomb was dropped.
It was the Imperial war machine (think current Republican hawks) that attacked Pearl. The Japanese people paid for it. Absent Pearl, there would have been no mass bombings.
For all the dead from centuries of war...
betsuni
(25,472 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)Omaha Steve
(99,584 posts)To get the info of what they did in exchange.
https://contagions.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/japanese-use-of-plague-during-world-war-ii/
July 14, 2012
Ive been reading Sheldon Harris Factories of Death: Japanese Biological Warfare, 1932-1945, and the American Cover-up. (Rev. ed, 2002), considered the definitive book on biological warfare in the Pacific theater during WWII. My primary interest is in Japanese research and use of plague in their biological warfare program. Since this blog is, in part, a research tool, this post is a collection of notes taken specifically on plague, though the book covers a much wider program. If you ever wondered why plague is a category A bioterrorism agent, what follows will go a long way in explaining.
Lt. Gen. Shiro Ishii was the primary organizer, promoter and director of the Japanese biological warfare (BW) program. He was involved at all levels from pitch-man to the Japanese military and academia to personally supervising research on human subjects. He began his work research in the potential of biological weapons in the late 1920s.
One of Ishiis first facilities was called the Zhong Ma Castle in Beiyinhe northern Manchuria. Initially their test subjects were trouble makers among the Chinese population: criminals, communists, and other suspicious persons. Ishii began by focusing on plague, glanders and anthrax. Subjects were injected with the pathogen and the course of their disease was monitored; all were extensively autopsied. (p. 33-34) There are numerous reports of autopsies being carried out on the unconscious, as in not yet dead.
In 1939 the stressed Japanese military allowed Ishii to send several BW attacks against Soviet forces in the Nomonhan region. Details of the mission refer to the contamination of water supplies with typhoid but plague, cholera and dysentery effected both Japanese and Soviet troops during the campaign. Harris is unclear whether these were effects of biological weapons operations or naturally occurring outbreaks. (p. 97-98) In 1942 a Soviet defector to Germany claimed that Soviet biological weapons were field tested during combat in Mongolia (/Manchuria) and that a there was a major plague epidemic at that time. (p. 98) With both sides attempting biological warfare and with the level of technology at the time, it is unlikely that it will be possible to unravel outcome of either the Japanese or Soviet efforts. The Japanese BW program was developed primarily with a future war against the Soviets in mind, as Japan planned to take land north of Manchuria. The intent of the BW program was to give Japan an advantage over the vast population and natural resources of China and the Soviet Union.
FULL story at link.
betsuni
(25,472 posts)and said that Germany had faced its past squarely and so was accepted by the international community, and those who closed their eyes to the past were blind to the present. Japan and the U.S. have serious vision problems.
dballance
(5,756 posts)That bombs and missiles were falling all over the UK?
That Japan attacked Perl Harbor?
That the Japanese invaded China and were responsible for what is called the Bataan Death March where thousands, yes, thousands of soldiers died in the Philippines?
That the battles in the Pacific were horrific and brutal?
My father served there during WWII. I know about those battles from his first-hand experience.
War is not a pretty thing. People bomb and kill other people.
TheSarcastinator
(854 posts)"They" kill & torture civilians = horror, madness, a crime against all humanity that must be avenged.
"We" kill & torture civilians = patriotism, honor, the "cost of war".
You are purposefully conflating the killing of combatants with the slaughter of civilians in order to continue to support American exceptionalism, and they are not the same, at all, no matter how loudly and often you repeat it.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Since most Japanese military records on the killings were deliberately kept secret or destroyed shortly after the surrender of Japan in 1945, historians have not been able to accurately estimate the death toll of the massacre. The International Military Tribunal of the Far East estimated in 1948 that over 200,000 Chinese were killed in the incident.[11] China's official estimate is more than 300,000 dead based on the evaluation of the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal in 1947. The death toll has been actively contested among scholars since the 1980s, with typical estimates ranging from 40,000 to over 300,000.[3][12]
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)There were no smart bombs or drones in the 1940s. There was no way of relatively ensuring a single bomb of hitting a factory, so the way you targeted a country's war infrastructure was aerial bombing of the cities where that infrastructure existed. If that prospect seemed bad to Japan, they shouldn't have started a war.
There is a reason the war crimes trials after the war did not have the aerial bombing of Britain as part of the war crimes charges against various German war criminals. It's not regarded as a war crime.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)of the German Luftwaffe or Air Force. You will not see any mention of the mass aerial bombing of British cities which was done at his command.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/JudgeGoering.html