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Has anyone asked AG Holder why the 47 Senators haven't (Original Post) williesgirl Mar 2015 OP
IOKIYR randys1 Mar 2015 #1
As much as it might be deserved, do you... MANative Mar 2015 #2
But many of us are just plain sick and tired of all the avebury Mar 2015 #6
yeah, but you don't take a stand by pulling an appalling, facistic stunt cali Mar 2015 #11
If we are not willing to take a stand avebury Mar 2015 #14
It's almost as if people elected them to do crazy stuff jberryhill Mar 2015 #26
The best stand we could take is Skidmore Mar 2015 #31
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Mar 2015 #32
It would be worse than a stunt YarnAddict Mar 2015 #9
because the logan act may be unconstitutional, because it's doubtful they even violated geek tragedy Mar 2015 #3
I believe that in order to sue those senators for violating the Logan Act, pennylane100 Mar 2015 #4
The Logan Act is a criminal act. Standing has nothing to do with it onenote Mar 2015 #7
Criminal courts are for criminal trials. pennylane100 Mar 2015 #15
No private right of action hardluck Mar 2015 #16
And in the US, private rights of action are generally not implied from criminal laws onenote Mar 2015 #22
No, presumably because the people who would ask that question are smart enough onenote Mar 2015 #5
gad. not this shit again. cali Mar 2015 #8
No, because criminally prosecuting almost every Republican senator for what amounts to an op-ed, Nye Bevan Mar 2015 #10
I find it mildly mind blowing that anyone thinks this is a reasonable proposition. cali Mar 2015 #13
Maybe because Holder knows the Logan Act is unconstitutional. former9thward Mar 2015 #12
kick. midnight Mar 2015 #17
I know. One word. Politics. WillowTree Mar 2015 #18
It's not clear that the Logan Act even applies, and if it did, it wouldn't apply to Congress Yo_Mama Mar 2015 #19
No, because that would look stupid, as the logan act is unconstitutional and doesn't apply here. X_Digger Mar 2015 #20
Because Holder isnt an idiot Telcontar Mar 2015 #21
The Logan Act has never been used, if I was informed correctly. In over 200 years. Hekate Mar 2015 #23
Is there someone in charge of asking stupid questions? CBGLuthier Mar 2015 #24
+1 - exactly - it would be political suicide to do so - glad more sane minds are in-charge DrDan Mar 2015 #25
If they wouldn't go after fredamae Mar 2015 #27
No need. Such arrests and any prosecutions would be futile MineralMan Mar 2015 #28
because it doesn't. NM_Birder Mar 2015 #29
Another thread complaining not about the 47 Republicans... SidDithers Mar 2015 #30

MANative

(4,112 posts)
2. As much as it might be deserved, do you...
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 05:41 PM
Mar 2015

really think that President Obama or anyone in his administration is willing to throw the country into such a shit-hole of a Constitutional crisis? I've read several legal analyses (Lawrence O'Donnell was one) that say it wouldn't come close to standing up in court. It would look like nothing more than the same kind of cheap political stunt that they pulled. Someone in the room has to be a grown-up once in a while.

avebury

(10,952 posts)
6. But many of us are just plain sick and tired of all the
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 05:55 PM
Mar 2015

crap that the Tea Party and Republicans continue to pour onto this country. At some point, you have to take a stand and say enough is enough. Sometimes being the adult in the rooms means taking the naughty child out to the wood shed for a good wallop. I am beyond ready for the Democrats to beat the ever loving crap out of these idiots. Playing nice has not gotten the Democrats (or this country) anywhere. We continue to be held hostage to the lunatic fringe. Part of being the adult in the room is taking control and putting misbehaving children in their place.

Based upon the path we are on, I see no reason for any young, bright, ambitious young people to stay in the US. Just as our ancestors came to this country to get a better life, the time is coming for the young to move elsewhere for the opportunities that no longer exist here.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
11. yeah, but you don't take a stand by pulling an appalling, facistic stunt
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:02 PM
Mar 2015

this has nothing to do with playing nice.

avebury

(10,952 posts)
14. If we are not willing to take a stand
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:28 PM
Mar 2015

against them then we might has well give them the keys to the kingdom now because nothing will change. I am so sick and tired of what is going on and I am about at the point where I consider the Democrats aiding and abetting the situation because they will not take a stand against what is going on. There is a total disconnect to reality. As much as I cannot stand the Republican Party and Tea Party it absolutely boggles my mind that so many "experienced" Senators were so quick to sign a letter written by a guy that is a total nut job.

Skidmore

(37,364 posts)
31. The best stand we could take is
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 10:13 AM
Mar 2015

to vote them out. Show up to vote. Bring someone with you to the polls. Vote absentee or by mail. Just vote. If you are talked out of voting, we end up with this mess of cretins. Not voting cedes power to them by default.

Response to avebury (Reply #6)

 

YarnAddict

(1,850 posts)
9. It would be worse than a stunt
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 05:58 PM
Mar 2015

It would look like the kind of thing you see in third-world dictatorships. Imprison the opposition. We'd never win another election.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
3. because the logan act may be unconstitutional, because it's doubtful they even violated
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 05:41 PM
Mar 2015

it, and it has never once been used to prosecute, let alone convict, anyone.

what they did was certainly seditious in spirit, but remained within the letter of the law

pennylane100

(3,425 posts)
4. I believe that in order to sue those senators for violating the Logan Act,
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 05:47 PM
Mar 2015

a citizen or organization like CREW or the ACLU would need Standing. Are there legal minds that could tell us if violating this act affects us enough to give us standing to sue them.

If there was Standing, it would be great if we raised the funds and sued as members of DU. I know that is probably not practical but it is fun to think about.

onenote

(42,660 posts)
7. The Logan Act is a criminal act. Standing has nothing to do with it
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 05:56 PM
Mar 2015

only the federal government could bring charges.

pennylane100

(3,425 posts)
15. Criminal courts are for criminal trials.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 08:24 PM
Mar 2015

However, regardless of whether the crime is tried in a criminal court, a person harmed by the crime can still seek compensation in a civil court. Which, I believe, carries a lesser burden of proof.

hardluck

(638 posts)
16. No private right of action
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 09:51 PM
Mar 2015

This is a criminal statute. Sometimes you can sue in civil court on a criminal statute if it allows a private right of action. A good example of this is California's eavesdropping statute, penal code 630 et seq., which expressly allows an individual to sue in civil court for actual damages and penalties.

The Logan Act does not have an express private right of action and I highly doubt the courts would find an implied one.

onenote

(42,660 posts)
22. And in the US, private rights of action are generally not implied from criminal laws
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 11:12 PM
Mar 2015

There is no express private right of action provided for in the Logan Act. For many years the leading case setting the standard for when the courts would imply a private right of action was Cort v. Ash (1975), which set up a four part test: 1. Whether the plaintiff is part of the class of persons "for whose especial benefit" the statute was enacted; 2. Whether the legislative history suggests that Congress intended to create a cause of action; 3. Whether granting an implied cause of action would support the underlying remedial scheme set down in the statute, and 4. Whether the issue would be one that is traditionally left to government enforcement.

Under this standard, the courts almost certainly would not, had they ever been asked, found a private cause of action arising out of the Logan Act.

Moreover, in recent years, the Supreme Court has narrowed the Cort v. Ash test, so that the ultimate question is whether the text and structure of the statute alone reveal whether Congress intended to create a private right of action. Given the absence of any indication in the text or structure of the Logan Act that it would create a private right of action, the issue of standing (which also would be disqualifying) would never be reached.

onenote

(42,660 posts)
5. No, presumably because the people who would ask that question are smart enough
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 05:54 PM
Mar 2015

to know that the Justice Department has better things to do than bring unwinnable cases.

The chief foreign policy arm of the government is the State Department and their official position, as it has been for 40 years, is that the Logan Act doesn't apply to members of Congress.

Furthermore, there is for all intents and purposes, no difference between an "open letter" and a speech on the floor of the Senate and no administration is bringing criminal charges against members of Congress for public declarations. You might be interested in knowing that while the law in question is informally known as the "Logan Act," the formal title of 18 USC Sec. 953 is "Private Correspondence with Foreign Governments". The gang of 47's idiotic letter was anything but a "private correspondence."


Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
10. No, because criminally prosecuting almost every Republican senator for what amounts to an op-ed,
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:00 PM
Mar 2015

under a law that is almost certainly unconstitutional, would be stupid, fascistic, and highly counter-productive.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
13. I find it mildly mind blowing that anyone thinks this is a reasonable proposition.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:05 PM
Mar 2015

kind of scary that anyone on DU would endorse this.

former9thward

(31,961 posts)
12. Maybe because Holder knows the Logan Act is unconstitutional.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:03 PM
Mar 2015

I am pretty sure Holder took Constitutional Law in Law School. Anyone who has taken it -- heck our president used to lecture on it ---knows the Act is unconstitutional. That is why no prosecutions in 216 years.

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
18. I know. One word. Politics.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 09:58 PM
Mar 2015

Also, as others have said, the Act itself is in conflict with the Constitution and such a prosecution would never stand up.

Next question!

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
19. It's not clear that the Logan Act even applies, and if it did, it wouldn't apply to Congress
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 10:03 PM
Mar 2015

You are asking that they create a constitutional crisis - this would not stand up in court and it is one of those things that would force the SC to step in almost immediately and administer a shit-slapping, followed by a possible impeachment.

Not everything that's stupid is illegal.

Trying to arrest or charge these duly elected representatives would in fact be a high crime and misdemeanor under the Constitution. Sorry, but that's the truth.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
20. No, because that would look stupid, as the logan act is unconstitutional and doesn't apply here.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 10:45 PM
Mar 2015

Chris Matthew's legal acumen aside.

HA!

Hekate

(90,616 posts)
23. The Logan Act has never been used, if I was informed correctly. In over 200 years.
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 03:23 AM
Mar 2015

So it's kind of a red herring.

Also, I don't think you can arrest half the US Senate, even for doing something grossly stupid and counterproductive.

Best we can hope for is they all get pilloried in the court of public opinion, which seems to be happening. If the Dems have any brains at all (always a questionable issue imo) they will not let this die. It is a genuine scandal, unlike the the emails.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
24. Is there someone in charge of asking stupid questions?
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 06:41 AM
Mar 2015

Anyone who thinks the Obama administration is going to charge republican senators with crimes for a bullshit political stunt, even if it violates an arcane law, is living in a fantasy world.

Get over it people.

fredamae

(4,458 posts)
27. If they wouldn't go after
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 09:45 AM
Mar 2015

the bankers/wall street...why on earth should we even suggest these 47 senators would face Any accountability under Any part of the law(s)? Mutiny? Sedition? Logan Act?
Look forward, not back..remember?

MineralMan

(146,281 posts)
28. No need. Such arrests and any prosecutions would be futile
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 09:45 AM
Mar 2015

and would create a very serious constitutional crisis. No administration would do such a thing. It's not going to happen.

 

NM_Birder

(1,591 posts)
29. because it doesn't.
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 09:55 AM
Mar 2015

Don't remember the section, but Thom Hartman was asked that exact question on Friday, and said it didn't. He then read the few clauses that proved it didn't, and gave examples of similar actions by both parties in the past. Some relevant some vindictive, but because Congress is involved in foreign policy there is no criminal act in visiting, contacting or writing to foreign government. regardless opinion of the letter, it did not violate anything, which is why there is no rush to prosecute, and really there has been a fairly benign response from the White House.

The Logan act does not apply to this letter. His final explanation was "Just because it's not against the law, does that mean you should" ?

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
30. Another thread complaining not about the 47 Republicans...
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 09:58 AM
Mar 2015

but about the Administration's imagined weakness on dealing with them.



Sid

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