General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHas anyone asked AG Holder why the 47 Senators haven't
been arrested for violating the Logan Act?
randys1
(16,286 posts)He cant, they are republicans, it is the rule.
MANative
(4,112 posts)really think that President Obama or anyone in his administration is willing to throw the country into such a shit-hole of a Constitutional crisis? I've read several legal analyses (Lawrence O'Donnell was one) that say it wouldn't come close to standing up in court. It would look like nothing more than the same kind of cheap political stunt that they pulled. Someone in the room has to be a grown-up once in a while.
avebury
(10,952 posts)crap that the Tea Party and Republicans continue to pour onto this country. At some point, you have to take a stand and say enough is enough. Sometimes being the adult in the rooms means taking the naughty child out to the wood shed for a good wallop. I am beyond ready for the Democrats to beat the ever loving crap out of these idiots. Playing nice has not gotten the Democrats (or this country) anywhere. We continue to be held hostage to the lunatic fringe. Part of being the adult in the room is taking control and putting misbehaving children in their place.
Based upon the path we are on, I see no reason for any young, bright, ambitious young people to stay in the US. Just as our ancestors came to this country to get a better life, the time is coming for the young to move elsewhere for the opportunities that no longer exist here.
cali
(114,904 posts)this has nothing to do with playing nice.
avebury
(10,952 posts)against them then we might has well give them the keys to the kingdom now because nothing will change. I am so sick and tired of what is going on and I am about at the point where I consider the Democrats aiding and abetting the situation because they will not take a stand against what is going on. There is a total disconnect to reality. As much as I cannot stand the Republican Party and Tea Party it absolutely boggles my mind that so many "experienced" Senators were so quick to sign a letter written by a guy that is a total nut job.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Skidmore
(37,364 posts)to vote them out. Show up to vote. Bring someone with you to the polls. Vote absentee or by mail. Just vote. If you are talked out of voting, we end up with this mess of cretins. Not voting cedes power to them by default.
Response to avebury (Reply #6)
Corruption Inc This message was self-deleted by its author.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)It would look like the kind of thing you see in third-world dictatorships. Imprison the opposition. We'd never win another election.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)it, and it has never once been used to prosecute, let alone convict, anyone.
what they did was certainly seditious in spirit, but remained within the letter of the law
pennylane100
(3,425 posts)a citizen or organization like CREW or the ACLU would need Standing. Are there legal minds that could tell us if violating this act affects us enough to give us standing to sue them.
If there was Standing, it would be great if we raised the funds and sued as members of DU. I know that is probably not practical but it is fun to think about.
onenote
(42,660 posts)only the federal government could bring charges.
pennylane100
(3,425 posts)However, regardless of whether the crime is tried in a criminal court, a person harmed by the crime can still seek compensation in a civil court. Which, I believe, carries a lesser burden of proof.
hardluck
(638 posts)This is a criminal statute. Sometimes you can sue in civil court on a criminal statute if it allows a private right of action. A good example of this is California's eavesdropping statute, penal code 630 et seq., which expressly allows an individual to sue in civil court for actual damages and penalties.
The Logan Act does not have an express private right of action and I highly doubt the courts would find an implied one.
onenote
(42,660 posts)There is no express private right of action provided for in the Logan Act. For many years the leading case setting the standard for when the courts would imply a private right of action was Cort v. Ash (1975), which set up a four part test: 1. Whether the plaintiff is part of the class of persons "for whose especial benefit" the statute was enacted; 2. Whether the legislative history suggests that Congress intended to create a cause of action; 3. Whether granting an implied cause of action would support the underlying remedial scheme set down in the statute, and 4. Whether the issue would be one that is traditionally left to government enforcement.
Under this standard, the courts almost certainly would not, had they ever been asked, found a private cause of action arising out of the Logan Act.
Moreover, in recent years, the Supreme Court has narrowed the Cort v. Ash test, so that the ultimate question is whether the text and structure of the statute alone reveal whether Congress intended to create a private right of action. Given the absence of any indication in the text or structure of the Logan Act that it would create a private right of action, the issue of standing (which also would be disqualifying) would never be reached.
onenote
(42,660 posts)to know that the Justice Department has better things to do than bring unwinnable cases.
The chief foreign policy arm of the government is the State Department and their official position, as it has been for 40 years, is that the Logan Act doesn't apply to members of Congress.
Furthermore, there is for all intents and purposes, no difference between an "open letter" and a speech on the floor of the Senate and no administration is bringing criminal charges against members of Congress for public declarations. You might be interested in knowing that while the law in question is informally known as the "Logan Act," the formal title of 18 USC Sec. 953 is "Private Correspondence with Foreign Governments". The gang of 47's idiotic letter was anything but a "private correspondence."
cali
(114,904 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)under a law that is almost certainly unconstitutional, would be stupid, fascistic, and highly counter-productive.
cali
(114,904 posts)kind of scary that anyone on DU would endorse this.
former9thward
(31,961 posts)I am pretty sure Holder took Constitutional Law in Law School. Anyone who has taken it -- heck our president used to lecture on it ---knows the Act is unconstitutional. That is why no prosecutions in 216 years.
midnight
(26,624 posts)WillowTree
(5,325 posts)Also, as others have said, the Act itself is in conflict with the Constitution and such a prosecution would never stand up.
Next question!
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)You are asking that they create a constitutional crisis - this would not stand up in court and it is one of those things that would force the SC to step in almost immediately and administer a shit-slapping, followed by a possible impeachment.
Not everything that's stupid is illegal.
Trying to arrest or charge these duly elected representatives would in fact be a high crime and misdemeanor under the Constitution. Sorry, but that's the truth.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Chris Matthew's legal acumen aside.
HA!
Telcontar
(660 posts)And knows what the law means.
Hekate
(90,616 posts)So it's kind of a red herring.
Also, I don't think you can arrest half the US Senate, even for doing something grossly stupid and counterproductive.
Best we can hope for is they all get pilloried in the court of public opinion, which seems to be happening. If the Dems have any brains at all (always a questionable issue imo) they will not let this die. It is a genuine scandal, unlike the the emails.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)Anyone who thinks the Obama administration is going to charge republican senators with crimes for a bullshit political stunt, even if it violates an arcane law, is living in a fantasy world.
Get over it people.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)fredamae
(4,458 posts)the bankers/wall street...why on earth should we even suggest these 47 senators would face Any accountability under Any part of the law(s)? Mutiny? Sedition? Logan Act?
Look forward, not back..remember?
MineralMan
(146,281 posts)and would create a very serious constitutional crisis. No administration would do such a thing. It's not going to happen.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)Don't remember the section, but Thom Hartman was asked that exact question on Friday, and said it didn't. He then read the few clauses that proved it didn't, and gave examples of similar actions by both parties in the past. Some relevant some vindictive, but because Congress is involved in foreign policy there is no criminal act in visiting, contacting or writing to foreign government. regardless opinion of the letter, it did not violate anything, which is why there is no rush to prosecute, and really there has been a fairly benign response from the White House.
The Logan act does not apply to this letter. His final explanation was "Just because it's not against the law, does that mean you should" ?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)but about the Administration's imagined weakness on dealing with them.
Sid