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Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 05:43 PM Mar 2015

Publicly the FBI called him a terrorist. In private, agents said he was a "retarded fool." How the

FBI preys on the mentally ill and poor to create terrorists.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrorist/

Informant-led sting operations are central to the FBI’s counterterrorism program. Of 508 defendants prosecuted in federal terrorism-related cases in the decade after 9/11, 243 were involved with an FBI informant, while 158 were the targets of sting operations. Of those cases, an informant or FBI undercover operative led 49 defendants in their terrorism plots, similar to the way Osmakac was led in his.

In these cases, the FBI says paid informants and undercover agents are foiling attacks before they occur. But the evidence suggests — and a recent Human Rights Watch report on the subject illustrates — that the FBI isn’t always nabbing would-be terrorists so much as setting up mentally ill or economically desperate people to commit crimes they could never have accomplished on their own.

At least in Osmakac’s case, FBI agents seem to agree with that criticism, though they never intended for that admission to become public. In the Osmakac sting, the undercover FBI agent went by the pseudonym “Amir Jones.” He’s the guy behind the camera in Osmakac’s martyrdom video. Amir, posing as a dealer who could provide weapons, wore a hidden recording device throughout the sting.

The device picked up conversations, including, apparently, back at the FBI’s Tampa Field Office, a gated compound beneath the flight path of Tampa International Airport, among agents and employees who assumed their words were private and protected. These unintentional recordings offer an exclusive look inside an FBI counterterrorism sting, and suggest that, even in the eyes of the FBI agents involved, these sting targets aren’t always the threatening figures they are made out to be.
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Publicly the FBI called him a terrorist. In private, agents said he was a "retarded fool." How the (Original Post) Luminous Animal Mar 2015 OP
How else can FBI justify the nice budget increases without, you know, terrorists? Octafish Mar 2015 #1
Bingo. It's like that Voltaire quote: If God didn't exist, we'd have to invent him. valerief Mar 2015 #21
This happened in Portland.....it was code named "The Christmas Tree Plot" by the FBI: Eric Stratton Mar 2015 #35
I thought this was about GW Bush Politicalboi Mar 2015 #2
"how did McVeigh plant explosives in a Federal building???????" FiveGoodMen Mar 2015 #12
He drove them to the front door. Thor_MN Mar 2015 #14
Yep...Another day, another Greenwald apologia for terror Blue_Tires Mar 2015 #3
Of course......the tape he freely recorded before his terror spree is simply forgotten. msanthrope Mar 2015 #5
We gotta make sure there are enough 'terrorists' 99th_Monkey Mar 2015 #4
I think the drug dealing, gun buying, and anti-gay rhetoric was no joke... msanthrope Mar 2015 #7
Mental illness is indeed "no joke" 99th_Monkey Mar 2015 #13
Funny......isn't it, when facts like anti-gay attacks come in to the msanthrope Mar 2015 #15
So...the FBI is arresting potential RWing extremists, is what you are saying? Rex Mar 2015 #16
Firstlook/Intercept is Omidayar/Greenwald. msanthrope Mar 2015 #19
Ah I C Rex Mar 2015 #23
I stand with Human Rights Watch.. 99th_Monkey Mar 2015 #17
She thinks it is biased due to the source. I'm not so sure. Rex Mar 2015 #24
Yep, the typical Greenwald BS in other words uhnope Mar 2015 #29
the two are not mutually exclusive. Cannon fodder is not recruited from the top of the class nt geek tragedy Mar 2015 #6
Who recruited the cannon fodder? Comrade Grumpy Mar 2015 #10
In this case, yes. geek tragedy Mar 2015 #11
Or will this justify whatever sick thought is going on in the cannon fodders head? Rex Mar 2015 #27
He was planning an attack on a bar he thought was a gay bar. msanthrope Mar 2015 #8
Thank you. Though, he couldn't have planned himself out of a paper bag without the FBI's assist. Luminous Animal Mar 2015 #30
Well...there's no requirement in the law that criminals be smart. As for propaganda, msanthrope Mar 2015 #32
So called salient facts absent of the information that the FBI successfully suppressed from the public and Luminous Animal Mar 2015 #33
What facts? That the FBI agents thought this guy was a frackin' idgit? msanthrope Mar 2015 #34
What's the Lady Gaga incident? Aerows Mar 2015 #36
He and a preacher got into it outside a Lady Gaga concert....seems they were both msanthrope Mar 2015 #37
Oh boy. Aerows Mar 2015 #38
They also prey on the young and impressionable gratuitous Mar 2015 #9
K&R woo me with science Mar 2015 #18
makes sense Greeny would back up fundie assholes... snooper2 Mar 2015 #20
"Greeny" didn't write the article. A human being named Trevor Aaronson did. Is it your position Luminous Animal Mar 2015 #31
While they waste time on threats that are not realistic.. LiberalFighter Mar 2015 #22
K & R !!! WillyT Mar 2015 #25
K & R !!! WillyT Mar 2015 #26
First Look is just not trustworthy IMO uhnope Mar 2015 #28
Candidate for This Year's "You Call This NEWS?" award rocktivity Mar 2015 #39

valerief

(53,235 posts)
21. Bingo. It's like that Voltaire quote: If God didn't exist, we'd have to invent him.
Tue Mar 17, 2015, 01:02 PM
Mar 2015

Same goes with terrorists. If terrorists don't exist, they have to invent them.

Eric Stratton

(19 posts)
35. This happened in Portland.....it was code named "The Christmas Tree Plot" by the FBI:
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 02:50 PM
Mar 2015

The FBI recruited this kid, the first FBI contact happened when he was a minor and the FBI "lost" the recording of the initial contact. The FBI managed this kid, gave him money, paid his rent, directed all of his "terror" activities, and impressed him with a demonstration all as a means to build his self-esteem as a means to manipulate him into doing something that the FBI could construe as a terror act.

The whole objective of the FBI was to find a patsy they could use as a patsy to take the fall for a "terror plot" they invented so the FBI could claim a victory in Portland; thereby, frightening the public and increasing pressure on the City Council to rejoin the FBI Joint Terror Task Force which was abandoned by the City of Portland because of the demand by the FBI for resources and unfettered access without any transparency.

The ploy worked. An ignorant marginalized kid now sits in prison and the FBI continues to operate in Portland with impunity.

The WIKI article has been significantly "managed" but the original reporting still exists and paints a very clear pattern of media manipulation and manufacturing of public opinion.

The fact remains that the only independent action this stupid marginalized kid took of his own volition was to send some emails that were quickly intercepted by the FBI. Every other "terror" activity he took was invented and manipulated by the FBI. The kid needed counselling and supervision but....clearly....the FBI needed a "Victory on Terror" more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Portland_car_bomb_plot

 

Politicalboi

(15,189 posts)
2. I thought this was about GW Bush
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 05:48 PM
Mar 2015

But yea, the first Trade Center attack was helped by the FBI. They're ALWAYS making new terrorist for job security. And how did McVeigh plant explosives in a Federal building???????

FiveGoodMen

(20,018 posts)
12. "how did McVeigh plant explosives in a Federal building???????"
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 07:07 PM
Mar 2015

Don't think he did.

Working at a lakeside campground near McVeigh's old Army post, he and Nichols constructed an ANNM explosive device mounted in the back of a rented Ryder truck. The bomb consisted of about 5,000 pounds (2,300 kg) of ammonium nitrate and nitromethane.

On April 19, 1995, McVeigh drove the truck to the front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building just as its offices opened for the day. Before arriving, he stopped to light a two minute fuse. At 09:02, a large explosion destroyed the north half of the building. The explosion killed 168 people, including nineteen children in the day care center on the second floor, and injured 450 others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh#Oklahoma_City_bombing
 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
14. He drove them to the front door.
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 08:19 PM
Mar 2015

They were never "in" the building, except as they ripped through the wall.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
5. Of course......the tape he freely recorded before his terror spree is simply forgotten.
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 06:08 PM
Mar 2015

He got 40 years for his threats. ..but we are all supposed to forget that because GG doesn't want to talk about Dilma.....

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
4. We gotta make sure there are enough 'terrorists'
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 06:05 PM
Mar 2015

to keep the MIC greed-heads fat and happy, laughing all the way to
the bank with fat moneybags, happy their never-ending 'war on terrah'
is keeping US tax dollars over-flowing into MIC coffers.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
7. I think the drug dealing, gun buying, and anti-gay rhetoric was no joke...
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 06:14 PM
Mar 2015

Arrested in 2012, Osmakac had been under surveillance by the FBI since at least 2010, but the agency began to monitor him more closely after he made a failed attempt to buy guns from people he thought were selling drugs in St. Petersburg. An undercover agent was assigned to test how far Osmakac was willing to go by posing as a dealer willing to sell him weapons.

The Pinellas Park man took the bait, and he did so while being videotaped by the FBI. In what became the government's chief evidence, Osmakac met several times with the agent and an informer to discuss his plans and the weapons he wanted to purchase. He spoke repeatedly of his desire to avenge the deaths of Osama bin Laden and Anwar al-Awlaki, the U.S.-born cleric who became an influential al-Qaida leader.

Osmakac schemed to set off a car bomb outside MacDinton's, an Irish pub in South Tampa, an area he regarded as the stomping grounds of sinners and homosexuals. From there, he planned to enter the Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino and take hostages, releasing them once the government agreed to free certain Muslim prisoners. Knowing that his rampage would end with him surrounded by police, he planned to detonate the suicide vest.

In one recording shown to jurors, Osmakac threatened war on non-Muslims, saying, "We will go after every one of them, their kindergartens, their shopping centers, their nightclubs, their police stations, their courthouses and everything until we have an Islamic state the whole world."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/jury-starts-deliberating-sami-osmakac-terrorism-case/2183695

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
13. Mental illness is indeed "no joke"
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 07:11 PM
Mar 2015

but it shouldn't mean that because of lack of adequate mental health services,
that mentally ill people should be 'fair game' for NSA/CIA/FBI to entrap for an
easy bust, and to give the MIC what they need to keep justifying their getting
handed a bizzilion dollars of US taxpayer's money.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
15. Funny......isn't it, when facts like anti-gay attacks come in to the
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 10:28 PM
Mar 2015

conversation.....facts that Mr. Greenwald omits...we hear about mental illness as a defense for just plain old hatred?

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
16. So...the FBI is arresting potential RWing extremists, is what you are saying?
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 10:55 PM
Mar 2015

Not crazy, but probably will end up burning down a church or something equivalent? I'm try to grasp this conversation here between you two. Also, what does GG have to do with this? Is that his website? The authors name is Trevor Aaronson.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
17. I stand with Human Rights Watch..
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 11:18 PM
Mar 2015

"Human Rights Watch report on the subject illustrates that the FBI isn’t always nabbing would-be terrorists so much as setting up mentally ill or economically desperate people to commit crimes they could never have accomplished on their own.

At least in Osmakac’s case, FBI agents seem to agree with that criticism, though they never intended for that admission to become public."

What is it that you don't understand about the above info (from the article linked in OP)?

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
24. She thinks it is biased due to the source. I'm not so sure.
Tue Mar 17, 2015, 01:54 PM
Mar 2015

I do remember a case years ago where the FBI had egg on their face for practically creating a terrorist plot out of thin air for 6 gullible people to get trapped in. I believe it was in Florida.

I am torn on this issue, on one hand I can totally see the entrapment going on. On the other, I have to question why people would let themselves (not mentally ill, normal functioning people in society) get talked into blowing up people and buildings in their own country. That's just fucked up and I wonder how many reports we DON'T hear about, where the people turned in the FBI informant - basically did the right things.

Preying on the mentally ill however is sick and disgusting no matter who or what group is doing it. I won't just dismiss the FBI casually, we all know their history and sometimes it has been great (civil rights movement) and sometimes it's been downright shitty (all the files kept on progressives/minorities by J. Edgar).

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
29. Yep, the typical Greenwald BS in other words
Tue Mar 17, 2015, 05:45 PM
Mar 2015

All magazine articles require a process of selecting the facts to present and how to present them. This article could be largely true, but I have no way to know that since I don't trust the Greenwald spin that will be on all First Look articles. The article could very well be cherrypicking comments from thousands of hours of commentary to construct its point of view that Greenwald pushes--you know, the USA is always wrong in everything it does, evil forces are listening to all private conversations, etc., while it omits details that don't fit that agenda (as you have pointed out.)

It's indisputable (to me) that the FBI went too far in some of these case. But I'll take that analysis from a source that has less agenda that the Greenwald media, thank you.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
11. In this case, yes.
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 06:48 PM
Mar 2015

The main redeeming quality of this program is that it makes cannon fodder harder to recruit.

Even cannon fodder will now be extra-suspicious of anyone who tries to recruit them. Which makes actual recruiters' jobs harder.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
27. Or will this justify whatever sick thought is going on in the cannon fodders head?
Tue Mar 17, 2015, 01:58 PM
Mar 2015

They see the FBI arrest some fellow wannabe jihadists, so now they are driven even more to hurt America. Perhaps they go out and find a group that is not an FBI operation, but a true terrorist group that is off the FBIs radar. I just question if this spurns cannon fodder on more or it scares them off in droves, like you suggest.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
30. Thank you. Though, he couldn't have planned himself out of a paper bag without the FBI's assist.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 01:08 AM
Mar 2015

And the propaganda that the FBI was protecting the gays is as ludicrous a notion that we invaded Afghanistan (in part) to protect them there wimmins folk.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
32. Well...there's no requirement in the law that criminals be smart. As for propaganda,
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 01:39 AM
Mar 2015

I find it rather interesting that your source chose to omit salient facts about the nature of the crime.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
33. So called salient facts absent of the information that the FBI successfully suppressed from the public and
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 01:50 AM
Mar 2015

exposed by "my source."

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
34. What facts? That the FBI agents thought this guy was a frackin' idgit?
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 08:05 AM
Mar 2015

Look....the jury heard from 6 mental health experts and still convicted him because when you have a "disorder" that doesn't mean you aren't legally sane. And who gives a crap what the FBI agents thought about his mental health? They aren't mental health professionals. Heck......6 mental health pros couldn't come up with majority vote on which disorder this guy supposedly has.

You can have a "disorder" and still be legally culpable. And entrapment? I'm thinking the Lady Gaga incident sort of blows that one out of the water.

What you have is a guy who is a loser, who was cruising for trouble and he found it. He's back terrorist. ...an inept one, certainly.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
36. What's the Lady Gaga incident?
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 03:35 PM
Mar 2015

I haven't been keeping close watch on the news lately because I've been so infuriated by the antics of Senate Republicans.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
37. He and a preacher got into it outside a Lady Gaga concert....seems they were both
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 03:41 PM
Mar 2015

there to be anti-gay douches....violence occurred.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
38. Oh boy.
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 03:46 PM
Mar 2015

"He and a preacher got into it outside a Lady Gaga concert."

That sounds ... interesting.

Were they fighting to see which one could condemn the "homosexuals" more vigorously, or were they arguing over which method to use?

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
9. They also prey on the young and impressionable
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 06:24 PM
Mar 2015

Our society says that when you hit the age of 18, you're an adult in just about every respect except drinking. You can legally sign a contract (even if you can't read it), be held responsible for any tortious or criminal act, and generally be subject to all facets of the law. There's nothing really magical about the age of 18; I've known 14-year-olds who were quite sophisticated in their understanding of any number of things. I've known 35-year-olds I wouldn't trust around the corner with a piece of string, lest they hurt themselves or others.

But for good or ill, our society says if you're 18, you're an adult. Neuroscience says that our brains continue to develop for another seven years or so, and development of crucial critical reasoning skills is often delayed well into our 20s. The military understands this very well, aiming their recruiting pitch toward young men and women designed to appeal to these not-yet-mature brains in ways that can convince young people that they are capable of having a lasting impact on the world. Likewise, the FBI likes enticing young men with promises that their dissatisfaction with the way things are in the world can be translated into effective, concrete action that will change the world for the better. It's no accident or coincidence so many of these terrorist stings feature young men who were identified and targeted between the ages of 18 to 22.

This doesn't make us safer, but it sure does impress a certain segment of our population with thrilling tales of catastrophe averted at the last moment by the Fidelity, Bravery and Integrity of our faultless, heroic g-men.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
31. "Greeny" didn't write the article. A human being named Trevor Aaronson did. Is it your position
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 01:18 AM
Mar 2015

that the U.S. government should use its resources to lead the mentally ill into plotting crimes, no matter what there political bent, in order to imprison them for 40 years?

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
28. First Look is just not trustworthy IMO
Tue Mar 17, 2015, 05:40 PM
Mar 2015

All magazine articles require a process of selecting the facts to present and how to present them. This article could be largely true, but I have no way to know that since I don't trust the Greenwald spin that will be on all First Look articles. The article could very well be cherrypicking comments from thousands of hours of commentary to construct its point of view that Greenwald pushes--you know, the USA is always wrong in everything it does, evil forces are listening to all private conversations, etc etc.

It's indisputable (to me) that the FBI went too far in some of these case. But I'll take that analysis from a source that has less agenda that the Greenwald media, thank you.

rocktivity

(44,555 posts)
39. Candidate for This Year's "You Call This NEWS?" award
Wed Mar 18, 2015, 08:09 PM
Mar 2015

Last edited Mon Mar 30, 2015, 01:00 AM - Edit history (2)

This has been going on for quite a while, actually:

Informant who ensnared Bronx terror suspects avoided by nearly everyone else at Newburgh mosque

...Driving a silver Hummer or black Mercedes-Benz, Shahed (Malik) Hussain arrived at the Masjid al-Ikhlas mosque Friday mornings and stayed for hours...trying to chat up those who seemed to be down on their luck. He offered meals, jobs and advice on how to get rich...He was...(t)oo friendly. And that's what made everyone nervous..."We would go to the person after he talked to them, and tell them to stay away," (a) worshiper...said...

James Cromitie, accused ringleader of the gang bent on bombing Riverdale synagogues and shooting down a plane, didn't listen - possibly seduced by Hussain's bankroll. "James for some reason didn't stay away from him," Abdulwaly said. "James had no money. The longer James stayed and spoke to him, the more money James had."

After busting (Hussain) in April 2003 for scamming illegal immigrants trying to get driver's licenses...the FBI asked (him) to infiltrate the inner circle of Masjid As-Salam, a storefront Albany mosque that had been on the agency's radar since 9/11. His work led to...2006 conviction(s) on terror-linked money-laundering charges...

"None of these men had money for this," Muhammad said. "Who paid for this? The informant. The informant was buying these (explosives). The informant is the one who drove these guys around."

More:
http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3891015


rocktivity
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