Saint Patrick was an agent of Roman colonial imperialism.

[riqster]

Fuck that guy sideways, with a rusty file and a sandy lubricant.

Seriously, the SOB wiped out centuries of culture, and replaced it with the iron fist of Rome. And we celebrate him? Oh Hell no.

Even if I weren't having a cardiac procedure today, I wouldn't be toasting his memory.

[el_bryanto]

1. So Irish people who celebrate today are, what, Pro-Roman bigots? nt

[hlthe2b]

2. +1

[riqster]

46. I expect they just like the party. And honor their heritage.

I'm groovy with all that. Just not the R.C. Church.
Sláinte!

[cali]

3. I'm sorry but the outrage here just strikes me as funny.

Let's not eat Turkey on Thanksgiving. Over time, holidays take on a life of their own. Do you really think St. Patrick's day is about venerating St. Patrick? It ain't it's about Irish and people of Irish background (and lots of others) celebrating Irish heritage. That's all.

[riqster]

45. I dig that.

The Irish gave my people refuge when we needed it. Plus it is a beautiful country.

[Xipe Totec]

4. Cue the token contrarian!

Pick a holiday. Any holiday.

Valentines?
Columbus Day?
Veterans Day?
Puppies and Kittens Day?

Someone will always chime in on how they're totally against it.

[hack89]

7. Puppies and Kittens Day? Don't get me started ....... nt

[riqster]

21. They have that?

Sign me up for that one!
[IMG][/IMG]

Mr. Bjorn Martigan, 18 weeks old yesterday. Squee!

[Agschmid]

5. I wore green...

[greatauntoftriplets]

12. Me too!

[riqster]

17. Well, hell. My hospital gown has green in it! Just noticed.

The Borg is assimilating me! Aieeeee!

[Octafish]

6. Good luck, riqster!

As for St. Patrick, the guy did the best he could under the circumstances. The Senate of his day were all republicans...

[riqster]

14. Best. Pun. Ever.

[earthside]

8. Zing!

All the Columbus revisionists take note: your holiday/commemoration, too!

[el_bryanto]

9. What is a Columbus revisionist?

[cali]

11. I was just going to ask that

[riqster]

15. People who aren't crazy about "Wrong-Way Chris" Columbus's holiday.

People like, say, my part-Shawnee wife.

[cali]

18. I don't know of too many DUers who defend Columbus

or who celebrate the day. The trouble with using the word revisionist in that it generally carries a negative connotation- as in Holocaust deniers like Irving.

[riqster]

22. Point. I hadn't thought about that aspect of the word.

Thanks.

[el_bryanto]

28. That's true but that wasn't my confusion

All the Columbus revisionists take note: your holiday/commemoration, too!

I read that to mean that Columbus revisionists are pro Columbus day? Which means they are pro Columbus? But maybe I misread it. Perhaps we've gotten to the point that Columbus was a bastard is the accepted storyline, so the revisionists are the ones saying "Actually he wasn't as bad as people say." I don't know.

I don't personally have an issue with the term revisionists; it's the normal state of affairs in the historical world Every generation of historians is reevaluating the assumptions and work of the previous one. But your point is well taken as far as how it looks generally.

Bryant

[Tommy_Carcetti]

10. Ugh.

This will go over as well as the whole, "Let's not celebrate Thanksgiving" thread from last November.

Holidays are holidays, and people are going to celebrate accordingly. Just give it a rest.

[riqster]

16. I know. Just had to vent.

For the record, I typically do drink on this day, I just loudly say "here's to the Picts" or something of such.

[SidDithers]

13. ....

This place, sometimes.

Sid

[bklyncowgirl]

19. Not quite right. The Roman Empire never conquered Ireland.

Yes, St. Patrick was a Christian of Romano-British descent but the Roman empire was in decline and well on its way to falling when this educated provincial was captured by pirates and brought to Ireland as a slave. Even during the high flying days of its expansion, the Roman Empire concluded that Ireland was not worth taking.

According to the legend--and it is a legend (the Catholic Church a few years ago even considered de-sainting him like they did to poor St. Christopher because there is no independent record of his existence but cooler heads prevailed) Patrick returned to Ireland determined to convert his former masters. He did not come at the head of an army. He outdid the druids in the miracle department and won many converts including the High King.

Was it all shamrocks and rainbows? Probably not. Mass religious conversions are never pretty but the point is it was an internal development--not something imposed from the outside.

The Irish church which Patrick established was quite independent. When Rome fell, Ireland, due to its isolation managed to escape most of the violence of the dark ages and Irish monks, who unlike some other Christians valued literacy and learning, preserved many ancient books and manuscripts that would have been lost to the world. This independence was, it is true eventually quashed by Rome--but by the Catholic Church not the Empire--once the pope was strong enough to impose his will and brought the hammer down on those married Irish priests and free thinking Irish monks and nuns.

So hoist a pint of Guiness and down a shot of Irish Whiskey--whiskey, by the way is another gift to us from those old Irish monks and don't feel guilty doing it.

It's history. It was a long time ago.

[cali]

20. hey, thanks for that interesting post.

[greatauntoftriplets]

24. Great post.

[riqster]

25. Interesting post.

As a Huguenot, I take a jaundiced view of Church holidays. Thanks for a less-biased perspective than mine.

[bklyncowgirl]

31. Celebrate the whiskey, my friend, if you can't celebrate the monks who invented it!

[riqster]

38. I am more of a Scotch man myself, and bless those who invented it.

Along with those who figured out that one could dump hot water on certain leaves to make tea. Heroes.

[bklyncowgirl]

48. Two of life's little pleasures for sure.

I'd add that Bedouin herdsman who noticed that coffee beans had a stimulating effect on his goats and also whoever discovered that if you add yeast to barley mash and let it sit a few days you get beer and if you add it to grape juice you get wine.

Cultural heroes all.

Hope your procedure goes well.

[riqster]

49. Thanks.

Still waiting. Ah, hospitals...

[hlthe2b]

26. ^^This^^

True history is often very complex...

Ireland and Irish culture has had a profound impact on the western world. That is what we celebrate.

[alarimer]

29. Those Irish monks probably saved civilization when the rest of Europe fell apart.

So as much as I despise the Catholic Church and its activities in Ireland in more recent times (Magdalene Laundries, etc.), I think they get some props for that.

[bklyncowgirl]

36. Actually, the early Christians in Ireland were considered rather heretical by Rome.

All those Pelagians and other ne'er do wells. The Irish church probably never came completely under the thumb of Rome until the English invaded them under Henry II--ironically a guy who had his own troubles with Rome.

[hunter]

35. Thanks.

Yours is such a civil response in comparison to things some of us might have written.

[Nye Bevan]

23. But doesn't he earn a few brownie points for casting out the snakes?

I just love DU on holidays.

[alarimer]

27. And there never were snakes in Ireland.

It's all pretty much lies: everything we've been told about history and culture.

But I think today is more about the party than about any actual facts.

I love Ireland, though. I think it's suffered enormously at the hands of the Catholic Church and the British.

[Nye Bevan]

34. Well well well. He lied about the snakes. That makes him just as bad as GW Bush in my book. (nt)

[Douglas Carpenter]

30. What have the Romans ever done for us?

[riqster]

43. Bloody Romans, can't take a joke...

[ileus]

32. If only there was something to boycott.

my poutrage is strong with this one but I can't seem to find anyone to punish.

[Nye Bevan]

33. I'm going to drink RED beer to protest this Roman imperialist lying-about-snakes maniac.

Because red is like the OPPOSITE of green.

Take THAT, you pathetic excuse for a patron saint.

[riqster]

42. I drink Guinness or Old Peculier myself.

I just offer Celtic toasts instead of Catholic.
Sláinte!

[Brigid]

44. Drink orange beer if you want to protest.

Red may be the opposite of green on the color wheel, but in in Irish history, that would be orange. We Irish have short tempers and long memories.

[fadedrose]

37. "rusty file" and "sandy lubricant"?

Ouch.

Good luck with your cardiac procedure, and a quick recovery.

Oh, and check the doctor's implements before he starts .

[riqster]

40. Hope he didn't read this post. Yikes!

Thanks for the good wishes.

[NCTraveler]

39. Best wishes on your procedure today riqster!!!! nt.

[riqster]

41. Thanks.

[LiberalAndProud]

47. A holiday that spawned Green beer. Nefarious indeed! -nt