Spending twenty years in the Air Force, I've seen my share of air incidents...

[MrScorpio]

Last edited Thu Mar 26, 2015, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Even a particularly fatal one in Korea involving an RF-4C recce jet.

But the thought of a person consciously crashing an airliner into a mountain side, with 150 crying and screaming passengers on the other side of a locked door is something of which that I can't even begin to conceive.

I'm not a religious person, but my heart goes to all the surviving family members, friends and acquaintances of all those who were needlessly lost.

May they all someday find peace of mind.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I second your good thoughts, my dear MrScorpio...

Horrifying in the extreme.

[uppityperson]

2. It is incredible, unbelievable, awful

[Sherman A1]

3. I too have some aviation background

and can only second your thoughts. I hope that all can find some peace.

[Malraiders]

4. Fortunately the pilot did not target a city's populace. nt

[riderinthestorm]

5. If he didn't care about the 149 passengers and crew

I doubt he'd care about anyone on the ground that he killed as well.

I think that as soon as he had an opportunity, he did it. I think it's just a coincidence it happened over the Alps. He would have done this at the moment the pilot left the cockpit, even if it was over a populous area.

[Moonwalk]

21. I doubt he cared about anyone else, either, but it could have been a psychotic episode...

Unless we find a note or video or something from him to reveal why he did this, then I don't think we can assume this pilot, who doesn't seem to have been out of the ordinary till this moment, was a monster or terrorist. Something was wrong with his brain, and it's possible that it went wrong that month, that week or even that day. He might have been having visions, he might have been under the impression that the passengers were evil demons he had to destroy.

I'm not saying we should absolve or forgive him, only that we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that his aim was to kill 150 passengers for a cause or for glory or because he was one of those psychopaths who seek fame from killing a lot of people. Brain chemistry can go very wrong and for no seeming reason.

And, yes, I think he was waiting for the other pilot to leave the cockpit and that's why he crashed it in that mountain. Because the other pilot had left and that was the nearest target. It probably didn't matter that it was "empty." What matter is that it would do the job...whatever the man, in his not-sane-view, thought that job was.

[Yo_Mama]

38. Certainly not his sanest moment!! n/t

[Surya Gayatri]

24. ^^^This!^^^

He'd obviously been thinking about it and just seized the moment when the pilot went to the toilet.

They're saying that he was clever enough to put the plane into a controlled descent rather than a steep dive. That's why rest of the crew and passengers only reacted in the last few moments.

They didn't realize what was happening.

[Cleita]

6. The fact that they were panicked and screaming before they

knew they were going to die just chills me to the bone. At least if you can think they were unconscious before impact it helps, but this will give me bad dreams for a very long time. You see there was a time in my life I had to cross the Andes twice a year in a prop plane before the jet age. The crossings were always turbulent and gut clenching. Several times when we hit an air pocket I feared we had bought it. I cry imagining what those poor people went through.

[LeftinOH]

7. Yowza. Was this before or after the infamous "Alive" incident?

[Cleita]

10. Before. Thank God.

However that airplane that crashed was a jet so the jets made travel over the Andes easier because the could fly higher and faster although it wasn't easy on those crash victims.

[smirkymonkey]

43. That is what haunts me the most.

What a terrifying way to go.

[Cleita]

46. Yes.

[blm]

8. ((humanity))

.

[WillowTree]

9. Nicely put.

[madokie]

11. I agree with you

I'm afraid many of them will never find that all elusive peace.
I can't imagine what would make a person do what this person did

[Moonwalk]

23. Check out my response in 21...we might discover that he had sinister motives...

...like the 9/11 men who crashed the planes into the two towers. But it's possible that this man simply went crazy. That he was having visions or paranoid delusions. I recently talked to a friend who was totally himself...except for the fact that he kept seeing demonic mice darting around under his furniture. There were no real mice in his home, and it was clear he was seeing things. But nothing anyone could say to him to make him believe they weren't real, or that he had to stop taking swipes at them with a broom. He's now on some very good meds and no longer sees those evil creatures.

There are reasons why a person would do this. Most of them have to do with something going seriously wrong in their heads.

[Logical]

12. Terrible 10 minutes, but the end was quick thank goodness. Nt

[mountain grammy]

13. Sheer madness. Chilling.

[MindPilot]

14. As someone who holds an Airman's Certificate (the fancy term for "pilot's license")...

I have a real tough time getting my head around that.

What an unspeakably cruel act, and what a legacy to leave oneself. He-at worst-may have been a inexperienced pilot who made a terrible mistake, now he will forever be remembered as a monster who deliberately and selfishly destroyed the lives of hundreds of people.

[Moonwalk]

25. You talk as if he knew what he was doing and we just don't know that...

...people can have delusions and visions. If he thought that his passengers had transformed into demons and he was saving the world, then it's not an "unspeakably cruel act." Because he didn't know what he was doing. He didn't understand that he was putting innocent people to death, or that he'd be remembered for doing that. It might not even have been selfish.

Understand, I'm not telling you to stop being furious and horrified over this—I'm certainly both and will remain so. And even if we discover he did have a psychotic episode, that doesn't mean he ought to be forgiven or absolved. What I'm saying is that, for right now, we don't know why he did this. And it's premature to put monstrous motives on him given that a psychotic episode is as much a possible reason for him doing it as any saner, more selfish/sinister reasons.

[MindPilot]

30. That is entirely possible.

We are all speculating here, but i can't really imagine a psychotic episode of that severity would occur so suddenly without any indication at all. I haven't seen anything about how many flights this particular crew had together, but you sit beside someone for hours at a stretch flight after flight, you get to know them pretty well. For a co-pilot to keep something like that hidden from an experienced captain would take some serious effort. Just my 2 cents--we could both be right, but criminal act or mental breakdown, it is a horrible tragedy and a brutal reminder of our human frailties.

On edit...i just saw down thread the story about the co-pilot having suffered from depression and burnout during training. If that is in fact true, the airline is going to probably be held liable...he should have not been in the cockpit.

[Moonwalk]

32. Looks like we'll have a better understanding of why soon...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141050092

[Helen Borg]

15. Makes no sense...

Why he could not have waited until landing and then offed himself without killing other people? ...

[eggplant]

48. Because sometimes people don't make rational decisions.

[Helen Borg]

49. Agreed, but his is a redescription of what happened, not an explanation of what happened.

[FourScore]

16. I feel as though I am in shock around this.

So, so terrible and sad.

[barbtries]

17. i'm sorry because i have not heard this news.

this is confirmed, that the pilot deliberately committed the murder-suicide of 150 people?

[Moonwalk]

18. As much as they can confirm it...

The other pilot had left the cockpit, he returned to find it locked and his code wouldn't let him in. The recording confirms this as that pilot frantically pounds on the door and shouts.

From what I understand, the other pilot could not have been able to lock out the other, nor would the plane have gone down (or gone down in the way it did), if he had, say, had a seizure and died or fainted at the controls. From what they're saying, the only explanation is that he locked out his fellow pilot and brought the plane down. Deliberately into the mountain.

[barbtries]

35. sigh.

what a horrific act.

[Surya Gayatri]

26. Police searches at his and his parents' home are beginning to reveal his mental state...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141050092
Mass-killer co-pilot had to STOP training because he was was suffering depression and 'burn-out'.

[cwydro]

19. A horrible story.

And not the first.

[regnaD kciN]

27. That's an important point...

Sadly, this isn't a one-off incident. There have been airline crashes previously where it was proven that the pilot deliberately brought down the plane (and others, including MH370 last year, where it is suspected as a possible cause, but where there's no final proof). While, in a couple of these, terrorism appears to have been a motive, in others, it seems to have been the pilot's personal problems that caused him to crash the aircraft.

[cwydro]

28. Yes. EgyptAir and the Japan airline

crash in 1982.

In the japan crash, the first officer and engineer fought the pilot.

Still crashed, but many lived.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

40. Also the attempted FedEx suicide insurance scam.

[cwydro]

41. Never heard of that one.

Scary there are so many that I did not know about at all.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

51. Auburn Calloway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

[Half-Century Man]

20. One of the things that make this worse

The reinforced door strength came about as a result of hijackers storming the cockpits during 911. What was intended to stop an intentional mass murder crash, enabled one.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

22. Policy is different in U.S., apparently

I think the procedure here goes like this:

The cockpit contacts an attendant who then pulls the food cart in front of the door to block a passenger from easily forcing his way into the cockpit. The attendant then goes into the cockpit with the remaining pilot, while the other pilot goes to the powder room. The situation is then reversed.

[cwydro]

29. Exactly.

No doubt Europe will go to this policy now.

[Yo_Mama]

39. More than one airline has already announced this change to policy

although it will take a little time to carry through due to scheduling. Just read that in the German press.

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faz.net%2Faktuell%2Fwirtschaft%2Fgroesste-deutsche-airlines-aendern-cockpit-regeln-13508341.html&edit-text=

Not just European airlines though. Air Canada and Easy Jet.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/03/26/new-air-canada-rule-no-one-alone-in-cockpit

[Moonwalk]

31. The irony's hard, but I think airlines are more in danger of hijackers than pilots who decide to...

...lock out the other pilot and crash the plane. I'm not sure of the details of how the man locked out the other pilot; maybe that, too, was part of anti-hijacking measures and need to be rethought. Optimally, we don't want anyone taking over a cockpit for their own purposes. However, this kind of incident is rare compared to hijackers, and I'd rather the reinforced door and its codes remain and discourage them. I don't want to make it easier for hijackers to take over a cockpit simply because we're afraid that another pilot might do what this one did.

[Half-Century Man]

36. I wouldn't undo what I see as a prudent safety measure either.

It is just that special sauce that makes this, all the more bitter.
Airline Tragedy 1 upgraded to 1.2 as it were.

[ScreamingMeemie]

33. My jury is still out on this...

...I'm not willing to believe yet it was a murder-suicide until more info than what an initial press conference gives us comes through.

[pscot]

34. Horrible

What a monstrous thing to do.

[valerief]

37. It's like a government that sends innocent young people off to war

for no reason except to enrich a handful of people. Selfish.

[raven mad]

42. Amen, MrScorpio - ex USAF myself.

I can't imagine it, even in my worst nightmares. My heart hurts for the friends and family of those aboard.

[Cha]

44. Unfathomable, Mr Scorpio

[Major Hogwash]

45. Some of the Air Force veterans I have talked to recently told me that . . .

Last edited Fri Mar 27, 2015, 03:10 AM - Edit history (1)

. . . they don't understand how that pilot was allowed to keep his job, given his mental background.
One of the guys I work with was in the Air Force for 12 years, and he told me this sort of thing goes against everything the men and women of the Air Force stand for, everything they trained for, and makes no sense whatsoever.

It is indeed sad that someone like that pilot took so many lives in such a desperate manner to commit suicide.

[lofty1]

47. I'm no pilot but

Could the plane have been in a high altitude stall situation? The pilots in this video were wondering why the stall warning was coming so late on this A320.

Maybe the co-pilot was trying to rectify the situation and assumed he didn't have a minute to spare to open the cockpit door?

[uppityperson]

50. The plane was not in a stall situation, according to the flight data.

I would think he'd have said something or been breathing harder even, if in an emergency. Also the forward speed was adequate to stay in flight, to not stall.

[pansypoo53219]

52. the cheap money misers who believe 1 person in control are in a dead stop these days.

yes. we DO need 2.