So will all 'white pilots' now be 'profiled'

[malaise]

or will they just be 'lone wolves'?

[msongs]

1. or all male pilots, all german pilots, all breathing pilots, all pilots in airplanes, all pilots in

the universe. to infinity and beyond?

[el_bryanto]

2. Don't forget people who sometimes pretend to be pilots

Or who think "Someday maybe I'll be a pilot."

Bryant

[Major Nikon]

7. Don't forget dogs

[RKP5637]

36. +++ 1,000 +++ n/t

[Wella]

3. We don't this guy's motivation yet.

I'm not convinced it wasn't political.

[cwydro]

4. You seriously want to make this horrid act

about race?

Oh dear me.

[Fred Sanders]

5. The implication simply is if the co-pilot was, say, for example, a not white Muslim, would the general response be the same?

Sometimes it is good to think a little outside the media box.

[cwydro]

6. I think that I would not be surprised if he was like that guy in Norway -

A complete right wing nut job.

That was my first thought. I didn't think Muslim when I heard the story.

Some of us think outside the box all the time.

[Amishman]

23. this wasn't about making a statement, it was about hopelessness and depression

And he chose the most selfish way of going out.

There is no grand statement to be found, just a very sad page to add to the book of cases where someone didn't get the treatment they needed.

[malaise]

8. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[HipChick]

10. This is the double standard for terrorist acts...

Is Co-Pilot Muslim? > Yes > Explore issue of terrorism > Expect an apology from 2 billion Muslims

Is Co-Pilot Muslim? > No > Explore issue of "psychological" problems > Expect improving working conditions for pilots

[malaise]

11. Precisely

Now here's what's really bothering me - one report says his parents home is worth Four hundred thousand pounds and they live in the small town of Montabaur. Wealth suggests connections which probably explains why he was flying with his 'medical problems'. I suspect this was the act and yet another entitled scumbag.
--------------------------------------------
Investigators are looking into the background of Lubitz, who was 27, for clues as to why he may have wanted to take his own life - and to kill 149 other people as he did so.

Police have carried papers and other items out of Lubitz’s flat in Düsseldorf and his parents’ home in the small town of Montabaur. “We will see whether this will explain what happened - everything is being examined,” a spokesman said.

On Thursday, Lufthansa’s chief executive, Carsten Spohr, revealed that Lubitz had interrupted his training in 2009, but refused to say why. He would only say that Lubitz was eventually cleared to return to work, after passing fitness and psychological tests.

On Friday however, the German newspaper Bild said that the Lufthansa flight school in Phoenix, Arizona had designated Lubitz at the time as “not suitable for flying”.

The newspaper said he spent a year-and-a-half receiving psychiatric treatment. Several times he was forced to repeat his flying classes because of depression, before he successfully finished his training. In 2009 he was diagnosed with a “severe depressive episode”, Bild reported.

He was given “special regular medical examination” by a doctor as well as the coding “SIC”. This coding also appeared on his pilot’s licence.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitzs-background-under-scrutiny

[KingCharlemagne]

50. You have nailed it in a few short words. My sincerest compliments! - nt

[romanic]

12. The very last thing I thought about in this tragedy

was race or skin color. :I

[DrDan]

17. or religion

heard some General yesterday on fox doing his best to spin this as a Islam-inspired terrorist act. Had no facts to connect the dots, but that did not stop him.

Seems some just have to further their own agendas at the expense of innocent victims - with or without any connective facts.

[romanic]

27. It's really sad

but not surprising. A tragic event always has to bring out the political vultures to "make a point".

[Nye Bevan]

13. So if it had been a black, Asian, or Hispanic pilot with a history of depression and anxiety,

who had spent over a year in psychiatric treatment, would you have started a thread focusing on their race?

What a strange and distasteful thread.

[cwydro]

14. Doubtful.

[romanic]

28. Very

distasteful indeed.

[malaise]

40. No one in the media would have raised either the history of depression or anxiety

he'd be assumed to be a Muslim.
If the person who brought down this aircraft was a Muslim there would be no discussion about the cockpit door.

I'm waiting to find out how he had a license to fly and I'll bet that he was well connected what with mummy and daddy's home worth four hundred thousand pounds.
How the hell is a 27 year old a first officer when he clearly has mental problems and had only clocked 600 miles?

This thread is about profiling and entitlement - For societal reasons, some folks will always be allowed 'to get away with murder' - literally.

If you think some Black, Middle Eastern, Asian or Hispanic 27 year old with well known mental issues was going to be allowed to be a first officer on any airline, then you too can dream on.

[sammythecat]

63. Really. What is the point of preparing to

get riled up over "what ifs" while the investigation is but a few days in and all the facts will be out soon enough? Disappointing and unnecessary.

[HereSince1628]

15. The storyline seems to be plucking fear of mental disorders more than skin color

and the image of mentally disordered rogues crashing loaded passenger planes is more than adequately salacious to sell soap. It also gives the dominant culture the cover to believe the risks are due to 'others', who are not like them at all.

[gollygee]

16. Yes but that's the point

When Islamic people do something like that, it's because they're terrorists or because of their religion. When white people do this, it's because of a mental health issue. We never say whiteness or Christianity causes action like this but we do say other races and religions cause this kind of thing.

[cwydro]

19. The only "Islamic people" who did something like that

were the 9/11 hijackers. And they WERE Islamic, and they WERE terrorists.

The other suicide flights that I know of was the SilkAir flight, the EgyptAir flight, and the Japan Airlines flight - ALL of those pilots were non-white. ALL of those pilots were found to have personal or mental problems. NONE were called terrorists.

This is ridiculous.

[gollygee]

22. There was a case not that long ago

where an Islamic pilot yelled something about Allah as he intentionally crashed. I recall Islam strongly being blamed and people calling him a terrorist. I don't remember more specifics than that.

[cwydro]

26. That is most likely the Egypt Air copilot

who prayed as he crashed.

The motive was attributed to personal problems.

[gollygee]

29. I didn't see people responding as if it was just personal problems

As I read about it here and there, I read a lot of talk about how Islam makes people do that, and just in general a lot of negativity toward Islam.

[cwydro]

38. It came out almost immediately

that he had been disciplined by his airline for sexual misconduct just days before the crash.

[gollygee]

39. That doesn't mean that people on the whole didn't blame Islam

Do you not remember how people talked about it? Or maybe you live in a much more open-minded area than I live in. I heard people talk about how they'd never be comfortable in a plane piloted by an Islamic pilot.

[malaise]

25. If you think this is only about pilots

dream on.

[cwydro]

31. Your op

referenced pilots.

[gollygee]

34. It is an example

Timothy McVeigh was led astray and had emotional problems. White school shooters were bullied and/or had mental health problems. We don't blame their actions on their whiteness, white society, or their Christian religion.

[malaise]

42. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[cwydro]

45. Just pointing out this is a ridiculous premise

using pilots.

If the op wanted to talk about race, there are plenty of other examples.

Mental illness is what causes these incidents. There are many issues that could be discussed in reference to this horrible act.

As another poster pointed out, it's distasteful to use this tragedy to promote something completely unconnected .

[malaise]

20. Precisely - you nailed it

When Islamic people do something like that, it's because they're terrorists or because of their religion. When white people do this, it's because of a mental health issue. We never say whiteness or Christianity causes action like this but we do say other races and religions cause this kind of thing.

[Yorktown]

35. When someone has a medical condition, it trumps religious ideology.

But I admire your zeal at trying to grasp any straw to defend medieval cults like Islam,
just because you think said straw is forever linked to ethnicity.

If the Mayan Sun worship still existed, you probably would defend human sacrifice.
In the name of respecting other ethnicities and cultures, of course.

It goes without saying the Quran does not literaly call for the submission of unbelievers.

[malaise]

47. All religions are cults

Every single one

Ask the indigenous people of my region about Christianity and submission and slaughter.

[Yorktown]

48. Agreed. I have zero respect for religion. Any.

Caveat: Zen and Jainism don't teach a lot of violence.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. Jury Results.

On Fri Mar 27, 2015, 10:01 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

When someone has a medical condition, it trumps religious ideology.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6422170

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Islam is a 'medieval cult' is about as clear-cut a case of religious bigotry as possibly exists.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Mar 27, 2015, 10:31 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'll leave it because I think Christianity is also a "medieval cult". It makes no difference to me that it grew out of it's early cult stage to become a "mainstream religion".
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is a medieval cult. So is Christianity and the rest of them. Words have meaning, and those were appropriately applied to this issue.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No, not a clear-cut case; malaise replies that all religions are cults, and Yorktown agrees. So this is an opinion about religions, not people. Islam was founded in the medieval period (as opposed to, say, an Iron Age cult).
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I think all religions are medieval cults.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: We are allowed to insult religions here.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[HereSince1628]

62. There is a report he had depression in 2009, is there anything to say currently?

I haven't seen that, yet. Maybe I missed it.

It'd be useful to know what 'medical' condition is in play. In the US it's quite uncommon to refer to an affective/mood disorder as a medical condition. I have no idea if German medicine is open enough to accept mental disorders as real medical conditions. The US doesn't do that.

[HereSince1628]

24. Not sure about always...It wasn't for Egypt Air 990 which seems somewhat similar...

I do think that in public and government reaction to stories involving deliberate behavior that there is a desire that the perpetrator become characterized as some form of 'other'. Mentally ill, vengeful, terrorist are labels that can be worked into a narrative that converts a perpetrator into something that is acceptably distant from most of 'us', at least in the US.

When the NTSB focused on murder suicide as the cause of the EA 990 downing, the Egyptian gov't found it socially unacceptable to have a pilot identified as suicidal...they pressured their agency's investigation in the direction of probable mechanical failure.

For people looking to hype the stories, the pattern seems to be to go with the story with the most salacious interpretation even if it means later walking it back. In this case we had a number of repetitions of 'deliberate act' tied to various forms of 'terrorism cannot be ruled out' until we got growing acceptance of mental disorder. And the narratve as it was being pushed 20 minutes ago is built around statements that Lubitz hid a medical condition that would have excused him from flying...the clear suggestion of another intentional and evil step leading to the downing of the plane

[Jenoch]

18. When have ANY commercial

airline pilots been profiled and for what reason if you say tbey have been profiled?

[cwydro]

21. See post 19.

There are none.

[Yorktown]

30. People with depression should be profiled. And radical muslims too.

Both are dangerous to themselves and the world at large.

[malaise]

33. And white supremists

and neo-nazis and anti-government militias and the racists among them. Notice you say radical Muslims and people with depression, which only perpetuates the double standard.

[Yorktown]

41. Reality check

Worldwide, how many white supremacist terrorist militias are currently active?

Now, what are Boko Haram, al Shebab, the Talibans, the 'virtue' squad in Saudi Arabia or Iran, al Qaeda, ISIS?

I'm all for profiling neo-nazi groups. Where they are. AND islamofascists. And there are many.

But if you want to call a 'double standard' the fact of noting that currently there are far larger numbers of islamofascists worlwide than of white supremacists, be my guest.

[malaise]

44. Your government led war on terror has already slaughtered

over two million people in the Middle East and North Africa - now define terrorists for me.

[Yorktown]

46. MY Government?

Never knew I owned any Government.

People never tell me anything. Very careless of them.

And if you're referring to Iraq, I was dead against that war even before it started.

Any other questions?


(PS: could you tell me where I left the keys of MY Government?

Can't find where I put them. Damn irritating)

[jberryhill]

53. "now define terrorists for me."

That may depend on whom is terrorized.

How about a government which can sentence gay men to ten years for having sex?

Where might we find a government which does that?

[malaise]

57. All our governments are capable of evil

and they all love amorphous terms like terrorists and they define the meaning.

[DrDan]

37. yep - it is a good thing that other "radicals" have a good grasp on reality and would never

jeopardize the lives of others.

[Yorktown]

43. The OP is trying to minimize the danger of islamic radicalism

by equating it to an isolated case of depression.

That is what I reacted to.

Not trying to minimize other radical groups which, to the best of my knowledge, are substantially smaller and less active worldwide than radical islamists.

[azmom]

61. LOL

[PoliticAverse]

32. No, pilots with 'mental health issues' will be. n/t

[Inkfreak]

49. I think it's fairly simple.

If the asshole commiting the attack/crime is jabbering about his religion, then I'll include that in the blame as to why they did it.

If the asshole commiting the attack/crime is not, then I won't include religion as to why they did it.

Nobody is profiling pilotes, anyways. I honestly don't get this OP. What would you have us do? Find out he once attended church and then blame his religion? This dude appears to have been mentally unbalanced. Call it for what it is. And if some asshole blows up a building claiming he did it for his religion, I'd say he was a religous asshole.

Maybe it's this is just a callout on the RW dipshits who blame Islam for everything. In that case, it doesn't matter. They'll hate no matter what we say.

[cwydro]

52. Agree that the premise of the OP makes no sense,

and it is extremely inappropriate to use this tragedy to promote another agenda.

[samsingh]

51. all pilots showing signs of illness should be profiled

[B Calm]

54. White privilege. .

[KingCharlemagne]

55. Had a Muslim pilot been at the helm and deliberately crashed the plane, killing

all on board, I can almost guarantee there would have been little or no resort to therapeutic nomenaclature: "depression," "severe depression" and so on.

Instead, the conversation would have immediately turned to the nomenclature of terrorism. You can almost see it happening right in this thread.

Not sure I'd call this phenomenon 'white privilege' per se, so much as 'Eurocentric privilege'.

Compliments on a good thread. I don't believe you deserve the scorn your thread seems to have evoked in some quarters.

[malaise]

58. Two very interesting reports

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/germanwings-co-pilots-home-town-remains-stunned-as-background-begins-to-emerge

Lubitz’s father is a banker; his mother an organist who plays at the local evangelical church. He has a younger brother. On Friday the white shutters were drawn, with no one at home. Police had earlier removed papers and a computer. The Lubitzs appear to come from the more prosperous end of the German middle class; unusually for a town this size – it has 13,000 people – Montabaur has a high-speed rail connection to the banking mega-hub of Frankfurt. Many commute.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-germanwings-crash-and-the-pilot-who-caused-it-a-1025914.html

Long but worth reading

[Number23]

59. Ah, the "lone wolf" and "mental illness" excuses. The last refuge for white criminals the world over

Remember when the guy flew the plane into the IRS building? Even DU was absolutely BLANKETED with posts showing sympathy and support for the guy because he'd come onto hard times.

We used to talk about it a lot in the old AA forum http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x9872

Well played thread, malaise. Well done.

[malaise]

60. I remember that very well