i really have been out of the political on DU since 2012. got obama, i could step away for a couple

[seabeyond]

years. and here we are again.

i have always been into the fair play. also, the pragmatic type position. calling out the lies, everywhere, while internally looking at our party and our supporters cause i want us strong, where ever we land.

i found out there is another du. the argument for a third liberal party.... or something.

that is going to be interesting. i just learned about htis yesterday and it is going to effect the way du progresses over the months and year and half. i have to keep this in mind.

but here is the thing. i am a democrat. i do not buy into .... both the parties the same. the democratic party heavily supports my positions. i want more from our democratic party in DC. i may not get it. i love to listen and be a part of actions to get more from our democratic leaders. but, i will wait and see what happens the next year and a half.

the democratic party heavily supports my position.

we make the statement, often scorn and mock... how can so many in the republican party vote against their interest. how stupid are they. pointing our finger and laughing and laughing. (women, we cannot be pres cause of our hormones but we can take care of babies and mold our young humans ... )

as i look at du, there are some people demanding i do just that. ignore my interests. dont vote cause we do not get a certain dem. because we can not get everything we want from a democratic leader, and as too many have been stating to me and others..... our issue are not the ones that matter.

well, yes. they do.

there are all kinds of names we are given. i understand justice warrior or whatever is one. i dunno all that garbage and stuff.

i do not know who i am going to support. we have a year and half. but wow, since clintons announcement what? three days ago?

we are to pointing and saying, .... fan, cheerleader and so many more descriptive, to dismiss anyone that favors clinton for various reasons. i read that clinton supporters were just 'fraid to see the misery, death, horror of war and reality of corporate. well, i challenge that statement. and i am not a supporter, but you can damn well bet, that is a false statement. i am gonna go out on a limb here and ask hillary supporters.... do you see get understand the deaths of war and the greed of corporate? can your little brains process this i say in sarcasm. cause really folks, i have more faith in my fellow dem and know they damn well have an understanding. how belittling. but, that is what the intent it. to belittle. lets not paint our fellow democrats in such a falsehood. it is not true.

we do not need to resort to reducing voters to empty minded/mindless zombies/cowards/fans/cheerleaders ect....

we are dems, all of us. unless we really arent? is this what the third party liberal is, a different party? educate me.

gonna be an interesting season.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

1. Another DU? Are you just making a point or is there something I dont know?

[seabeyond]

2. mmmm. last night i was reading a group and a strong stand that they are separate of democrats.

and suggesting this be pu instead of du.

i am processing to understand how conversation will go and how we can do respectfully and productively. but. i have to understand. i have mostly been ignoring.

[seabeyond]

3. oh, an i like that bernie logo. i have not seen that. but here is the thing...

the hillary one has grown on me as a firm and concise statement after the attack on it what? three days ago. and the silly battle and insults and laughing and scorn for fellow dems....

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

4. I am fullly with Hillary once Bernie is out of the pic which he will be eventually

[seabeyond]

5. i do not even no where i stand. i know nov '16 i will be voting dem. for sure. a fact. adamant.

lol

and i really do not think i need be insulted or mocked for that. here on a democratic board.

i hear ya nojustice. just getting my feel here, of the dynamics. an understanding.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

6. Some people are confusing the dates, too. The election is in A YEAR AND A HALF, not six months

They start so early now it can get confusing

[seabeyond]

7. a WHOLE year and half. and you know what? this is like the first three days? lol

yup.

[former9thward]

18. The primaries begin in 7 1/2 months.

That is the beginning of the election process.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

19. Primary in November? Where? For Presidential election?

[seabeyond]

20. isnt primary like next spring?? and the parties tussel when? nt

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

21. Thought so, could google it but I havent yet

Iowa is in spring 2016 I am pretty sure

[seabeyond]

22. ya. that is at least 6 months away, right.... we have time.

hey. i am glad you put a toe in here.

[former9thward]

48. Jan 18th is not spring on anyone's calendar.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

60. agreed, i didnt realize it was that soon

[seabeyond]

61. you know what i was thinking. the convention. remember the last couple elections

the two parties playing with the date. that was the kick off to their run. that was my confusion.

[former9thward]

47. Jan 18th is spring?

OK, on your schedule.

[seabeyond]

49. wow. i asked a question. obviously didnt know. your reason for the nasty of your post? nt

[former9thward]

46. Jan. 18, 2016

[JustAnotherGen]

14. Being mocked at a site called Democraticunderground

For wanting to vote for a Democratic Party member - I totally get that.

[seabeyond]

17. being fuggin mocked cause as a woman i vote per womens support. i mean, really?

i ma spending time using duh.... in my real life with 17 yr old son. lol. on so many issues. so many duhs, all over the place. ya. as a woman, i am going to vote to protect and support women.

i know. i know gen, it is way way out there. almost uncalled for. but hey.... i live loosely.

[daredtowork]

23. I envy whatever vacation you've been on

the reason the mockery, scorn, insults, and related defensiveness is at such a height is that it was going on far in advance of Hillary's announcement. And I'm not just pinning it on a particular group by picking out Hillary. It's the fact that the Hillary campaign started to seem "inevitable" months ago - so her supporters had ALREADY been trying to ram her through as the candidate-without-competition at the expense of other Democrat (chiefly left-leaning) viewpoints. The environment has been extremely mean-spirited, but when they got called on it, the Hillary supporters just did an "if I am rubber you are glue" victim-narrative of their own. This gave no relief to the left-leaning Dems who had been maltreated, and was a very bad look on the dominant Primary candidate.

You may think "cheerleaders" is a backhanded insulting term, but actually it's a very polite term that's being used in place of "insufferable bullies". You are right that Dems shouldn't treat other Dems this way. People have repeatedly brought up that it's the behavior of Hillary's supporters that's reinforcing the idea that Hillary doesn't really represent what some of us want to stand for: she's representing people who are willing to trample over anyone who gets in their way - and to use mockery, shaming, and all sorts of questionable rhetorical tactics to do it.

The problem is when you "win" that way you may shut your opponent up...but the resentment you incur is such that they may quietly vote another way later. Now if anyone tries to say that, all you will hear for days is: SEE! PROOF THAT ANYONE AGAINST HILLARY WILL VOTE REPUBLICAN!" Well, all I see is proof of Democrats being marginalized by insufferable bullies.

And since I called the insufferable bullies what they are instead of using the polite term "cheerleader", I expect to get dinged for that. But I'm not going to sit here and let it sound like the word "cheerleader" is some base and vile attack when it's pretty gentle deflect of people who will call you a "freeper" and a "purity troll" suffering from "derangement syndrome" in a heartbeat.

Ps. As a woman, I brought up the idea of Barbara Lee in a post that didn't get much play yesterday. I refuse to let Hillary be the only candidate for women.

[seabeyond]

24. see. the very first sentence, your title. you are being insulting/dismissive. right? nt

[daredtowork]

25. Sigh

Well I won't continue to engage. One side is allowed to call me names and I'm not allowed to "slant" back. That's how I see it. Read my other comment for the list so I won't have to keep repeating myself, and you won't have to keep studying my text for how I'm being "dismissive" or "loaded" next.

[seabeyond]

26. but, i did not call you names. i am on your side. i am part of all of us. and i calling out the

calling names. and you did it to me. i did not do it to you.

then you stop conversation.

that is my point. i read social justice is working getting the minimum wage and fast food wage up. do you know how much that helps with what you want in life? we are a whole.

i refuse to allow the separation

and that is how i see it.

[daredtowork]

28. Your calling me out for using loaded terms and being dismissive

That is labeling my character - as I see it, unfairly. The terms I use are polite in light of the way I and other left-leaning Dems have been treated.

[seabeyond]

30. i asked. were you not being dismissive/insulting? they may be polite, but they were

politely dismissing me. am i not allowed to say, hey.... you are plitely dismissing me. i challenge that.

[seabeyond]

27. i have been working hard on my area. you know, getting young women out of state for legal

medical procedure that is the least intrusive. that is a pretty big deal. and certainly a progressive position. you dismiss me with "vacation".

[daredtowork]

29. Please stop *looking* for terms to twist

By vacation I meant literally AWAY as clearly you were unaware of months of attacks on left progressives and seemed to think of "cheerleaders" as some sort of first strike.

Frankly, to me this comes across as a sort of "turn around and make the Hillary side look the victim" tactic - but you claim not to be a Hillary supporter, so I'll take your word on that and just regard it as a coincidence and this is how it genuinely looked to you when you came after being AWAY for some time.

[seabeyond]

31. so, it is my bad for seeing vacation, time away from work, .... play? nt

[daredtowork]

33. Yes - no slur was intended. nt

[ieoeja]

34. Meanwhile, in Bizzaro Universe ...

Post #25 by daredtowork

Okay, that subject line was snarky. Sorry about that. But what do you have to say about the rest of my post?

Post #26 by seabeyoned

I went back and re-read it. And you're saying exactly what I am saying. DU seems to be broken into camps. Some pro-Hillary. Some Democrats opposed to Hillary. While their is a third group pushing for a new party rather than challenging Hillary in the Democratic Party, and who often try to conceal themselves as "Democrats opposed to Hillary". And many DUers in all of those camps would rather insult and demean than argue the positions.

[daredtowork]

38. Totally agree about the camps and the bad blood

I suspect those who are pushing for a third party and those who have been reduced to dealing in insults are the result of a dynamic that was established month ago: center/margin as opposed to candidates competing for the primary on an equal playing field.

We can't go back in time and change the set up of "Inevitable Hillary" now, though. I have no good suggestions. I just don't want one party to be pegged as the bad actor here.

[seabeyond]

40. it looks like you are attributing that to me. i take it, you are replying to my post 26?

so, i read it as a reply to me. and yes. that is what i am seeing, too.

[seabeyond]

39. ok. good to know. nt

[ismnotwasm]

8. What we have is an infestation of icky Libertarians

As well as honest quasi-socialists, who despise our two party system. We have Democrats who feel disenfranchised. I get that. Outside of a bloody revolution, however it's what we got.

I'd vote a straight Socialist ticket if it would do any good, and do my posting elsewhere, but that isn't going to get me anywhere. All I got out of that was that war-mongering asshole Dubya, and I swore to vote for Democrats ever since. Not voting is not an option for me. So I support Democrats. I live in a state where I can afford to do that, I don't have to 'hold my nose'. My politics are women's issues first, and the Democratic platform supports this.

[seabeyond]

9. got to the end of your post. yes... yes yes. you live in a totally blue state. as i live red.

that all is factored in also.

we are living two different lives. fug ya.... like two different countries. lol.

[ismnotwasm]

15. So true!

I never take regional culture for granted

[seabeyond]

50. and i never paid enough attention, until recently. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

51. Left Leaning Independents...aka Libertarians....

and a few anarchists to boot!

[G_j]

10. Whatever views one holds,

the use of certain terms like cheerleader, hater etc. is intellectually dishonest. These terms do nothing but undermine honest discussion.

[seabeyond]

12. terms like cheerleader, hater etc. is intellectually dishonest.

right. everyone knows, so really? ya.

[ismnotwasm]

16. Exactly

[madfloridian]

32. Agreed.

[JustAnotherGen]

11. Great post sea!

[seabeyond]

13. thank you gen..... i am feeling good here in my little corner of the world.

i hope the same is with you....

oh,

and your precious? give him a hug from me.

[jtuck004]

35. "True Believer" by Eric Hoffer describes the fan types quite well. So it may not be incorrect to

view people and even talk about them as such.

It might even be detrimental to one's safety to ignore that, whether the person is sitting across the table or saying they are on your side.

[zentricity]

36. Totally agree seabeyond

I don't post much, but totally agree with your sentiment. Sometimes I cannot believe what is posted here on DU...At times it seems like republican talking points, at times I think there must be a bunch of paid republican shills/trolls here. Its very confusing at times, and have to admit at times, my mouth just hangs open in disbelief at how some of these people talk about our own party and politicians. We should all be united in this current situation. It more than just the presidency, think about the future of scotus.

[seabeyond]

41. scotus. as i say, there are no options for women. laws are being passed at our expense. nt

[closeupready]

37. At this point, I am resolved not to vote for her, and if that means

that somehow, I need to leave DU, then I will. However, I never say never, as the axiom goes, so we'll see what happens, or how things shape up.

It's likely my resolve will waiver. But at this point, that's where I'm at.

Peace.

[seabeyond]

42. as i said to zentricity. as a woman, i do not have the privilege of simply not voting to make my

stand. it is a bummer that is the position i am in. that we are in. but, that is the position i/we are in.

[closeupready]

43. That is definitely a persuasive argument in favor of holding nose/voting for HRC.

Sad truth.

[F4lconF16]

52. There are many socialist women in my area whom you might be interested in talking to.

They would say the exact opposite, as well as many of the PoC there, that they are so disenfranchised in this current system that they can't afford to vote for any continuation of the establishment. I hesitate to say more, as it is not my place to speak for them, but I think they would disagree, and vehemently, with the pragmatism you describe. I understand why you feel the way you do, particularly after Bush, but they (and I) cannot see how it will do us any good to continue supporting them during the shift. I also think they make an excellent case for why women's rights cannot be fully realized by supporting establishment politicians.

I am willing to discuss this more with you in depth, but I would prefer to do it in HOF or by PM, for obvious reasons.

[seabeyond]

53. i had to cross state lines for a grown woman to get a legal medical procedure.

if we lose the supreme crt, then where do we begin? we have to wrap up the supreme crt. we cannot lose this branch. it is not an election every couple yrs, or every four yrs.

[F4lconF16]

56. I hear you.

I am planning to write an essay on this for HOF at some point. I am unfortunately not anywhere near as experienced as the women I listen to are, and my answers to this take a lot of time to think through, they do not come easily yet. I hear you and I am listening in the meantime.

[seabeyond]

54. what area, or general area are you in? i think it would be grand to talk to

your women, lol. socialism? young, too?

[F4lconF16]

55. Seattle, up near the U.

They're members of the International Socialist Organization. Some are older, some younger, all strong women with fire in their hearts. I love listening to them talk when I go to meetings. Some aren't officially with the ISO, but agree with many of the politics. You would have loved to hear these women of color talk during the Black Lives Matter stuff; damn, it was inspiring. And I would be scared as heck if I were a member of the white men in power

[seabeyond]

57. that is right

we have talked about that. i LOVE the area and one of the hugest reasons, is to ... oh god, be with like minds. thanks.

[F4lconF16]

58. Exactly how I felt when I joined the ISO--nice to be with like minds.

It's a gorgeous day up here again, only a little damp. Hope it's nice in your area! gotta take off and mail my taxes now...stupid company messed up my W2 and I had to wait until today, and then of course forgot to mail it during lunch.

[seabeyond]

59. OMG, ... it is the 15th. lol. ya.... run! nt

[LanternWaste]

44. Another thing I've noticed are particular, subtly-pejorative and self-fulfilling prophecies

Another thing I've noticed are particular, subtly-pejorative and self-fulfilling prophecies used initially against a candidate by the opposition so that the same opposition may later come state the pejorative as though its an actual meme. I witnessed 'Messiah' used against Obama eight and four year ago by the RW extremists, and 'inevitable' used against Clinton this time around by the same.

Yet its never the supporters using those terms, despite the opposition painting it as such. Its some pretty effective, though minor-league framing by the dullards and the unimaginative.

[seabeyond]

45. 'Messiah'... yes. it is to inform, people are merely followers without a brain in their head, or

an ability to reason the choices one has. very insulting, lol.