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Sun May 6, 2012, 09:10 PM

 

How do YOU think Hillary will react to the Greek election results?

We know she's an austerity absolutist who cares nothing about the workers or the poor. We saw that, in the Honduran situation(and her abetting of the restoration of the Creole upper-class fascists to absolute power in Haiti), that she was just fine with bloodsoaked right-wing coups.

And she CAN'T be happy that the Greek people have defied the financial oligarchs and the power of the almighty Merkel.

Do folks here think she can be trusted NOT to do a repeat of the Johnson Administration 1967 policy towards Greece(the policy that was illustrated by LBJ grabbing the Greek ambassador by the shoulders and screaming "The U.S. is an elephant and Greece is a flea!" if the Left continues to grow in Greece and the imposition of austerity is subjected to serious challenge?

And do you think that, if she pushes for letting the Greek colonels seize power again, our C-in-C will stop her?

Will Hillary, in short, get in touch with her inner Dean Rusk in terms of dealing with Greece and the rise of democracy there?

These are natural questions on such a day as this.


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Reply How do YOU think Hillary will react to the Greek election results? (Original post)
Ken Burch May 2012 OP
Autumn May 2012 #1
Ken Burch May 2012 #3
maddezmom May 2012 #6
HiPointDem May 2012 #52
maddezmom May 2012 #62
HiPointDem May 2012 #66
Autumn May 2012 #14
DevonRex May 2012 #16
Ken Burch May 2012 #19
obamanut2012 May 2012 #46
Autumn May 2012 #20
marybourg May 2012 #65
dionysus May 2012 #108
DevonRex May 2012 #109
obamanut2012 May 2012 #44
cthulu2016 May 2012 #2
Ken Burch May 2012 #4
DURHAM D May 2012 #10
Ken Burch May 2012 #18
FSogol May 2012 #121
sharp_stick May 2012 #5
Ken Burch May 2012 #9
girl gone mad May 2012 #7
EFerrari May 2012 #51
DevonRex May 2012 #8
dionysus May 2012 #107
DevonRex May 2012 #110
jberryhill May 2012 #11
Ken Burch May 2012 #24
RZM May 2012 #12
Ken Burch May 2012 #21
cynatnite May 2012 #13
DevonRex May 2012 #15
Starry Messenger May 2012 #17
Ken Burch May 2012 #26
Starry Messenger May 2012 #28
Ikonoklast May 2012 #22
Ken Burch May 2012 #23
obamanut2012 May 2012 #49
Ken Burch May 2012 #56
obamanut2012 May 2012 #61
aquart May 2012 #81
maddezmom May 2012 #25
Ken Burch May 2012 #27
maddezmom May 2012 #29
DevonRex May 2012 #30
Ken Burch May 2012 #36
obamanut2012 May 2012 #53
bvar22 May 2012 #115
Starry Messenger May 2012 #54
Ken Burch May 2012 #57
Starry Messenger May 2012 #60
obamanut2012 May 2012 #58
Starry Messenger May 2012 #59
Ikonoklast May 2012 #92
Starry Messenger May 2012 #95
Ikonoklast May 2012 #97
jberryhill May 2012 #64
aquart May 2012 #83
Ken Burch May 2012 #85
tammywammy May 2012 #31
Ken Burch May 2012 #33
Webster Green May 2012 #35
Ken Burch May 2012 #40
cali May 2012 #93
Ikonoklast May 2012 #55
SidDithers May 2012 #125
BOG PERSON May 2012 #32
Ken Burch May 2012 #34
BOG PERSON May 2012 #98
nadinbrzezinski May 2012 #37
Ken Burch May 2012 #41
hack89 May 2012 #38
Ken Burch May 2012 #42
hack89 May 2012 #47
Ken Burch May 2012 #48
girl gone mad May 2012 #79
hack89 May 2012 #94
HiPointDem May 2012 #103
hack89 May 2012 #106
HiPointDem May 2012 #111
hack89 May 2012 #112
bvar22 May 2012 #116
hack89 May 2012 #117
Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #39
DevonRex May 2012 #43
Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #50
Lil Missy May 2012 #45
Chorophyll May 2012 #124
jberryhill May 2012 #63
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #73
dkf May 2012 #67
Ken Burch May 2012 #68
Zalatix May 2012 #71
dkf May 2012 #72
Ken Burch May 2012 #74
girl gone mad May 2012 #80
dkf May 2012 #84
Ken Burch May 2012 #87
dkf May 2012 #89
Ken Burch May 2012 #127
girl gone mad May 2012 #91
LongTomH May 2012 #118
JDPriestly May 2012 #69
Ken Burch May 2012 #70
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #75
kenny blankenship May 2012 #76
RFKHumphreyObama May 2012 #77
Ken Burch May 2012 #78
muriel_volestrangler May 2012 #88
DonCoquixote May 2012 #82
Ken Burch May 2012 #86
CreekDog May 2012 #102
NoPasaran May 2012 #90
DURHAM D May 2012 #96
Oilwellian May 2012 #99
progressoid May 2012 #100
Mc Mike May 2012 #101
DevonRex May 2012 #104
Mc Mike May 2012 #114
DisgustipatedinCA May 2012 #105
Ken Burch May 2012 #126
Capt. Obvious May 2012 #113
Chorophyll May 2012 #123
bvar22 May 2012 #119
juice feast May 2012 #120
Arkana May 2012 #122

Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:14 PM

1. She will respond however Obama wants her to respond

She works in Obamas administration and will NOT go rouge on him.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #1)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:15 PM

3. You're sure about that?

 

n/t.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #3)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:17 PM

6. yes

I am.

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Response to maddezmom (Reply #6)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:09 PM

52. no rouge?

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #52)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:34 PM

62. yes

HRC isn't and hasn't gone rouge.

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Response to maddezmom (Reply #62)

Mon May 7, 2012, 02:29 AM

66. dunno, looks like she's wearing some in this snap:

 

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #3)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:25 PM

14. Of course I'm sure of it.

Are you saying obama would let her push him around ? Cause I'm positive he won't do that either.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #14)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:29 PM

16. Oh, you know. The all-powerful Hillary

just runs roughshod over the entire world.

This is one of the most bizarre OPs I've read in ages on DU.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #16)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:31 PM

19. Look at how Honduras and Haiti played out.

 

She's the one who pushed for the hardline solution in both places.

She really needs to be fired, now. There's no good reason to keep her there at all. She could have been Bush's Secretary-of-state.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #19)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:51 PM

46. I doubt President Obama is so weak-willed he allowed Clinton to lead him around

He is the President, and she is his SOS. They have worked extremely well together, even when I don't agree with some of the decisions made by the Administration.

I also doubt one of Bush's SOSs would have said what she has about women's and LGBT's rights.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #16)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:31 PM

20. You have that right

beyond bizarre.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #16)

Mon May 7, 2012, 12:34 AM

65. It makes me blush. Or is that

the rouge?

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #16)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:27 PM

108. i'm waiting for Bea to come in guns blazing on this one....

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Response to dionysus (Reply #108)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:57 PM

109. So am I. And I'd back her up 100% too.

I'm tempted to PM her. Have you got a good banky ready? She's gonna need one after reading this thread. Maybe even 2.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #3)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:49 PM

44. Of course, Hillary Clinton is a loyalist to Obama

And serves our President well as his SOS. She is not a loose cannon.

I also think they are pretty much on the same footing on many issues, which is just one reason why she has been an effective SOS for this Administration.

I don't understand what SOS Clinton has done the last almost-four years to have her loyalty to Obama questioned?

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:15 PM

2. You left out the murder of Vince Foster...

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #2)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:16 PM

4. I never thought she did that and I hate all the rw anti-HRC stuff.

 

Vince Foster was a suicide and the Republican smears on that were reprehensible.

This is totally different from that.

HRC has always been the most right-wing force in the administration...and the least pro-democracy. That's what being a "pro-business Democrat" means, for God's sake.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #4)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:19 PM

10. LOL

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #10)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:29 PM

18. You're laughing at the truth.

 

being "pro-business" means being pro-austerity and anti-social justice.
And we saw what being "pro-business" meant in Haiti and Honduras, as well.

You CAN'T be ok with all of that.

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #10)

Tue May 8, 2012, 01:10 PM

121. Double LOL

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)


Response to sharp_stick (Reply #5)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:19 PM

9. What bullshit?

 

Look at Honduras and Haiti. Look at HRC's involvement in Walmart and her unquestioning support for every "free trade" deal.

It's not possible to be on the wrong side of all of the above and still be progressive on anything else.

You can't be a hawk with a conscience.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:19 PM

7. I think our neoliberals will just ignore any European backlash against austerity.

Our oligarchs have invested heavily in puppet politicians. They want the cuts, the privatizations and the financialization to continue apace.

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Response to girl gone mad (Reply #7)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:05 PM

51. This is the right answer, imo. nt

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:19 PM

8. Is this a joke that I'm not getting?

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #8)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:25 PM

107. just your daily anti-dem campaigning, is all....

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Response to dionysus (Reply #107)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:59 PM

110. I swear I feel like I'm back in 2008 suddenly.

All we're missing is puppet guy. Never can remember his name. I think my mind is protecting itself from remembering it, truthfully. Nightmares, you know. Hideous nightmares.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:21 PM

11. Does this comic book of yours come with drawings?

 

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #11)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:40 PM

24. You'd have said the same thing in a discussion about Dean Rusk and LBJ in '67.

 

We need people running our foreign policy who have completely abandoned the "we're the elephant-you're the flea" approach to dealing with other countries.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:22 PM

12. LOL. This is absolutely absurd fantasy

 

All you're really saying here is:

1) There was a military coup in Greece in 1967
2) I don't like Hillary Clinton

Problem is, those two things really aren't connected. She will toe the administration's line, whatever that might be (probably rote, detached statements about how we must 'respect the will of the Greek people').

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Response to RZM (Reply #12)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:36 PM

21. You're assuming she won't shape that line.

 

And there's a direct connection between those two events. The first happened with the U.S. had an adminstration that presented itself as "liberal, but tough"which is the model HRC has pushed hardest for). She represents the lineal descent of the LBJ-Dean Rusk-Scoop Jackson foreign policy "tradition"a tradition that brought nothing but misery to the world, with its obsession with a foreign "menace" that didn't really exist).

Understand history. Understand HRC's world view. This situation, like Haiti and Honduras, and her championing of austerity-at-all-costs(even the women and children she pretends to fight for) is something we need to be very, very watchful about.

That's all I'm saying.

That and, if HRC was fired tomorrow and replaced by a progressive at a recess appointment, we'd lose nothing that wasn't worth losing.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:22 PM

13. Holy Shit!

My nose started bleeding from the freakin' aneurysm in my head.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #13)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:26 PM

15. No, that's the implant Hillary put there back during the last

Greek coup.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:29 PM

17. Holy shit dude.

Don't touch the brown acid.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #17)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:43 PM

26. Remember Haiti and Honduras

 

Remember who was the main architect of what we did and what we abetted in both countries. We should have had a progressive as SoS...not Dean Rusk, the Next Generation.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #26)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:45 PM

28. I'm not excusing anything, but those countries are in our hemisphere.

Obama and Hillary will probably watch to see what coalition government will form in Greece, maybe send a fruitbasket.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:38 PM

22. These are *not* natural questions on a day such as this.

They are bat-shit loony-tune insane questions.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #22)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:39 PM

23. Remember Haiti and Honduras

 

Remember what she helped cause there.

Would that have happened in an Obama Adminstration that did not have her as SoS?

You can never trust the loyalties of anyone who'd sit on the board of WalMart.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #23)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:00 PM

49. Yes, it would have

And I noticed you didn't mention she used her time on the board of Wal-Mart, when she was First Lady of Arkansas, to pressure WM to hire more women and other minorities, to increase the number of female managers, and to keep manufacturing jobs in the US.

I also don't know WTF Wal-Mart has to do with what is happening in Greece. Even the Walton family doesn't have that much power.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #49)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:29 PM

56. My point was the values WalMart represents, I wasn't saying it controls foreign policy

 

Obviously it would be silly to think that.

But the values WalMart represents...short-term profit at ANY human cost...are the opposite of all progressive values.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #56)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:34 PM

61. Perhaps you need to read about her tenure on the Board

While First Lady of Arkansas.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #22)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:30 AM

81. Oh, you thought so, too?

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:42 PM

25. Better question would be how will the Obama administration react?

since Hillary works for it. Not sure why you think Obama is a puppet of Hillary. Do you think she is running this adminstration? Really strange OP, imo.

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Response to maddezmom (Reply #25)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:44 PM

27. On foreign policy, to a large degree, yes.

 

The foreign policy we've had is largely the one SHE ran on in the primaries...a policy of maintaining the status quo, forever.

It would be naive to assume that she wasn't given a guarantee of total control of foreign policy, or something close to it, in exchange for finally getting out of the race.

That's the only explanation for Haiti and Honduras.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #27)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:56 PM

29. so you are calling Obama a puppet



And I find it interesting you say it's naive to assume.....and yet that is what you are doing here. You have a low opinion of both Obama and Clinton that much is clear and no, I'm not assuming here.

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Response to maddezmom (Reply #29)

Sun May 6, 2012, 09:59 PM

30. This is some

serious conspiracy stuff going on here.

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Response to maddezmom (Reply #29)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:26 PM

36. It's just that I think I understand how power works.

 

It's not a simple question of the president leading and everyone else following. Presidents are often at the mercy of larger forces behind the scenes. Look at the ways, for example, that JFK, even if we could be sure he wanted to pull out of Vietnam early, was being blocked from doing so by other forces in the government.

It's not exactly that Obama's a puppet...it's just that he isn't always free do call the tune. We need to change several of the major players in the administration in order for the president to truly be in charge of it.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #36)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:10 PM

53. If Obama isn't free to "call the tune" on foreign policy, then who does?

Hillary?

You think Hillary Clinton, or/and her husband, have that much power?



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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #53)

Tue May 8, 2012, 11:46 AM

115. None of the above.

Foreign Policy is above their pay grade.
Sure, they are allowed to put whatever pretty face they want on it,
but the nuts and bolts of our "Foreign Policy" hasn't changed for over 50 years whether it was the conservative Republicans or conservative Democrats holding the White House and majorities in Congress.

*We WILL grab WHAT we can WHEN we can,
not FOR the American People who WILL pay for it,
but FOR the Global Corporations and the 1%.
SEE: Iraq and the "Oil Law".
SEE: Libya and the IMF

*We WILL support the forces of International Predatory (Disaster) Capitalism,
even if it means financing Dictators and Death Squads.

*Our military is at the disposal of the G-8, WTO, and the IMF.
Bad stuff will happen to anyone who says "NO" to the IMF.

*We WILL support, arm, and finance Israel
no matter WHAT the cost and no matter WHAT the government of Israel does.

Hillary, Bush, Obama, Bolton, Reagan, Rice, Powell .... it just doesn't matter.
Some things do NOT change, even when the White House does.

Hillary WILL support the interests of the IMF and the Global Banks.
They OWN our government no matter WHO we vote for.
....but she will make a good show of feeling the pain in front of the TV Cameras,
as will President Obama.
That is the difference between the Republicans and the Democrats on Foreign Policy.
The Democrats make SURE that the World sees them feeling the pain as they drop the hammer.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #36)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:17 PM

54. What forces, Ken?

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #54)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:30 PM

57. The Pentagon, big finance, corporate power

 

The forces that kept us in Vietnam when most of the country and almost all of the freaking world were begging our leaders to get out.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #57)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:34 PM

60. That was during the Cold War.

The geo-political forces are in a different place today. Yes, the military/industrial complex and imperialism in general exert pressure on the government. But making Hillary Clinton some kind of shadow force where all of these forces congeal is quite out there, friend.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #54)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:30 PM

58. Mayhaps the shadowy and elusive Hilderberg Group?!

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #58)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:32 PM

59. OMG.

Duzy!!

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #59)

Mon May 7, 2012, 07:33 AM

92. Pffft. Everyone knows it is the Hilluminati that hold the *real* power.

The Hilderbergers are nothing but a buncha wannabes.

Oh, they get to wear a neat special hats at their meetings and have a nifty secret handshake and all, but the Hilluminati own a fortress built on top of an extinct volcano somewhere in the Andes.

Now, that is freakin' cool.

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Response to Ikonoklast (Reply #92)

Mon May 7, 2012, 08:58 AM

95. I think you are getting the Hilluminati confused with the Hassan Hil Sabbah

*They* have a fortress up in the Andes. The Hilluminati have a severe looking marble building in Zurich for their secret meetings, and the leader keeps a pet ring-tail lemur on a rhinestone lead. It's easy to get them confused though.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #95)

Mon May 7, 2012, 09:10 AM

97. As if you've ever been invited to one of their gatherings.

My cousin's brother-in-law's dentist babysitter's aunt just happens to be a made member of the Hilluminati, and she says that those jerks in Zurich are nothing but a bunch of poserettes, and that 'severe looking building' is nothing but a Swiss Cheese shop.

You know they take selling that stuff really seriously.

I mean, armed guards and a moat for some Swiss Cheese?




She showed me her membership tattoo, once, at her nephew's Bar Mitzvah.

She gets really silly when she drinks the bubbly.








I'd like to see it again one day.

(sigh)

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #54)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:51 PM

64. Dark Forces

 

Here, better to light a candle than to curse the darkness...

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #36)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:38 AM

83. And a woman is the "larger force"? A WOMAN? IN AMERICA?

Wow. Hillary as koro.

Koro (sic) is a mythical disease in which the penis shrinks back into the body. It is widely feared in certain nations. By men.

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Response to aquart (Reply #83)

Mon May 7, 2012, 05:52 AM

85. This has NOTHING to do with gender. HRC's gender is totally irrelevant to me and you know it.

 

Does anybody here seriously think that I'd be OK with everything that the U.S. has done in the world since 2009, if only our SoS were MALE? Why does anybody think this has anything to do with HRC's genitalia at all?

The true absurdity here is that some folks have been convinced that militarism and an obsession with forcing the entire world into "free trade" agreements are progressive or even feminist things, just because the person in charge of our foreign policy is a woman.

And the REAL problem with HRC is that her approach to the world hasn't been particularly feminist...if it were truly feminist, it would be egalitarian, anti-corporate, and anti-militarist. War is pretty much ALWAYS the worst possible thing that can happen to the women and children of the world...and so are globalization and austerity. She's cherrypicked a tiny handful of "women's issues" to talk about, focusing exclusively on those that the financial and political elite don't find threatening to their power.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #27)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:01 PM

31. Hillary didn't leave the primary early

She was in until the primaries were completely over. She didn't conceded until June 7.

edited to add: Hillary works for Obama and represents his administration. The policy towards Haiti and Honduras is that of the Obama administration. Hillary can give her input, but the ultimate decision on the actions in foreign policy is Obama's.

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #31)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:19 PM

33. I amended it to "the race", not the primaries. My apologies on that point.

 

Still, HRC HAD planned on going all the way to the convention and trying to strip Obama of the nomination...she might well have done that, even though doing so would have to have consigned the party to defeat.

A lot of her followers(the ones who couldn't accept that a black man had the right to come out ahead of her)were pushing for her to go on. They were mainly interested in being wreckers and she indulged that faction right up until June 7th.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #27)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:26 PM

35. You are right on, Ken.

I don't know how folks can ignore Haiti and Honduras. I've been so pissed for so long.

Thanks for posting about it, in face of the ridicule you get from people who obviously haven't really paying attention.

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Response to Webster Green (Reply #35)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:36 PM

40. I expected the response

 

When you get that kind of ridicule, it means you've challenged people and pushed them outside of their comfort zone. Sometimes, in doing that, you can eventually get through to people. But to do that, you have to take the risk of making them mock you out of their own fear.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #40)

Mon May 7, 2012, 07:45 AM

93. and sometimes a banana is just a.... banana

 

sometimes people simply ridicule something because they think it's ridiculous.

I'm not opining on the validity of your op but this "argument" you posed in post 40 is one I see much too much of. And largely, it's garbage.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #27)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:24 PM

55. Then she has been failing miserably at 'maintaining the status quo, forever', then.

Things have changed dramatically on the world stage since Clinton became the SoS.

See: Arab Spring.

Exact opposite of status quo.

It would be naive to assume that SoS Clinton doesn't do one thing without the direct consultation of this president, because there is exactly *zero* evidence to the contrary.

Unless Hillary has a secret army that we don't know about and is making plans to invade Greece, you are just ranting about nonsense.



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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #27)

Tue May 8, 2012, 01:21 PM

125. Wow. Hillary dropped out of the 2008 primary in exchange for total control of US foreign policy?...

Did you really just state that?

Sid

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:01 PM

32. have they really defied the oligarchs and germany, though?

isn't SYRIZA pro_EU?

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Response to BOG PERSON (Reply #32)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:23 PM

34. SYRIZA is staunchly anti-austerity.

 

I'm not sure that they think staying in the Eurozone is worth the elimination of the entire Greek social wage...which is what will happen if Merkel gets her way on all of her vindictive and totally unjustified demands for mega-austerity.

They'll be nothing left in Greece when she's done...and certainly, if Merkel does get her way...no possibility of anything progressive or egalitarian ever being done in Greece again...or anywhere else in Europe.

(And in addition to her insistence on imposing austerity for austerity's sake, I think that Merkel, on some level sees EVERY left-wing person on the planet as a clone of the Stasi types in the DDR, and that every piece of social legislation ever passed, in her mind, somehow equates to the construction of the Berlin Wall).

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #34)

Mon May 7, 2012, 10:06 AM

98. i know they're anti-austerity

i'm just not sure if that means anything if they're wishy-washy about greece staying in or quitting the EU.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:27 PM

37. Just a small correction

 

It matters little what she thinks...empire has it's own logic...

So the more correct question is how will the empire react?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #37)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:37 PM

41. That, too.

 

I suppose I see her as a marker of "the empire".

Perhaps I've personalized it slightly too much...but the suspicions are understandable.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:28 PM

38. Nothing. She knows the election changes nothing.

the new government still has to deal with the same problems as the last one. And they are just as broke. There are not many options for them - they certainly will not be able to turn back the clock to they way life was before.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #38)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:41 PM

42. Actually, it opens many possibilities for change.

 

The pro-austerity parties were completely humiliated...between them(PASOK and ND) they took 33% of the vote. PASOK, a party that used to be on the left, fell to 13%.

It shows that the Greek people are not acquiescent in what the financial imperialists are trying to impose on them...and that they may find new and creative alternatives...such as a true and full democracy(not only political, social, and economic). These alternatives are things people will be willing to make sacrifices for...because, unlike the austerity demands of the EU, they have something positive to lead to in the end.

You would have voted for an anti-austerity party if you'd been Greek wouldn't you? And I hope you'd have been in the streets and be planning to stay there now. A vote for an austerity party is a vote for a permanently right-wing and worthless Greece-reduced, perhaps, to the nothingness of the 1920's or even further in the past.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #42)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:56 PM

47. Those new and creative alternatives had better fit within the global economy and financial markets

or they are screwed. At the end of the day you still need money to pay for everything you want. Greece doesn't have the money.

If I was a Greek, I would not have voted for the party that offered things they knew they could not pay for. I would have voted for the party that would fix the tax system to make it fair and also impossible to avoid.

Economic collapse will usher in the right wing. The new government has to provide jobs and get the economy moving.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #47)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:59 PM

48. A pro-austerity party can do neither

 

And it's becoming clearer and clearer that the world can't survive the global economy and financial markets as currently constructed.

We need to create a system in which both of the above are subordinate to democracy. Without that, as the last few years in Greece shows, democracy is meaningless.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #47)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:17 AM

79. Not sure what you think money is.

Or why you think austerity and tax increases would "provide jobs and get the economy moving."

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Response to girl gone mad (Reply #79)

Mon May 7, 2012, 08:16 AM

94. I know that spending more money than you have is a bad thing.

I am not pro-austerity. I am pro "living within your means". The only thing that will get the economy moving is government policies that make it easy for people to start and grow businesses. Less regulation, less corruption, more transparency, a fair tax system - that is what Greece needs.

The Greeks have a lot going for them - they are hard working and industrious. The Greek economy has always been good - until they started borrowing money like there was no tomorrow. The Greek people have a right to mad at their former leaders - they lied and hid the true deficit from the public. But the new government still has to clean up the mess - there is no magic reset button to go back to the good old days.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #94)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:26 PM

103. spending more money than you have is the main way individuals expand their assets.

 

and it's the only way governments can expand their economies.

otherwise, you're just pushing the same amount of cash around & it typically winds up concentrated in the hands of a few people.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #103)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:23 PM

106. But when your bills get so large that they consume a large and growing portion of your income

then it doesn't matter, does it? If all your income is going in one pocket and out the other you never get ahead.

Yes, governments can spend money the stimulate the economy. Or they can spend money on wasteful and inefficient government spending that has no direct impact on the economy. Guess which one the Greeks did?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #106)

Mon May 7, 2012, 09:50 PM

111. spending on social benefits has a direct impact on the economy. so not sure what you're

 

talking about.

the most wasteful spending the greek gov't did was their equivalent of our bankster bailout.

which is the main reason greeks are pissed at having to lose their pensions, etc. to pay for it.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #111)

Tue May 8, 2012, 08:04 AM

112. But if government tax receipts do not increase to cover those loan payments

then you are screwed. You still have to get back more than you spend. Greece didn't do that.

It doesn't help that tax evasion is the national pastime.

Greece is a fairly small country, but for the past year it has been causing an awfully big uproar. Burdened by a pile of government debt that could force it into default (and the European banking system into a meltdown), Greece has had to adopt ever more stringent austerity plans in order to secure a bailout from the European Union. Explanations of how Greece got in this mess typically focus on profligate public spending. But its fiscal woes are also due to a simple fact: tax evasion is the national pastime.

According to a remarkable presentation that a member of Greece’s central bank gave last fall, the gap between what Greek taxpayers owed last year and what they paid was about a third of total tax revenue, roughly the size of the country’s budget deficit. The “shadow economy”—business that’s legal but off the books—is larger in Greece than in almost any other European country, accounting for an estimated 27.5 per cent of its G.D.P. (In the United States, by contrast, that number is closer to nine per cent.) And the culture of evasion has negative consequences beyond the current crisis. It means that the revenue burden falls too heavily on honest taxpayers. It makes the system unduly regressive, since the rich cheat more. And it’s wasteful: it forces the government to spend extra money on collection (relative to G.D.P., Greece spends four times as much collecting income taxes as the U.S. does), even as evaders are devoting plenty of time and energy to hiding their income.


Read more http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2011/07/11/110711ta_talk_surowiecki#ixzz1uHM45Kaj

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Response to hack89 (Reply #94)

Tue May 8, 2012, 11:53 AM

116. "LESS Regulation"....


Yeah.
If we just get the governments off the backs of the Corporations,
everything will just be peachy,
and Good Times will ROLL for everybody!

Historically, the OPPOSITE happens during periods of "Less Regulation".



[font size=3]"...and EVERYONE has a Share!", shouted Milo as the American planes began dropping their bombs on their own base.---Catch-22

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #116)

Tue May 8, 2012, 11:56 AM

117. Ok - do you at least accept the need for less corruption and tax reform? nt

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:30 PM

39. Are you missing a marble?

Because one just came out of nowhere and rolled under my foot.

If not, I'll let the lost-n-found know.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #39)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:45 PM

43. I was just getting out my

my screwdriver kit, for just in case anybody felt the need to tighten something.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #43)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:00 PM

50. Okay - I'll hang onto it for now.

Just in case.

I don't think anyone is manning Lost-n-found tonight anyway.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 10:50 PM

45. CALL CONGRESS RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!!!!

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #45)

Tue May 8, 2012, 01:20 PM

124. And alert Hugh Series while you're at it!!!1!

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Sun May 6, 2012, 11:40 PM

63. She will go to her Fortress of Solitude

 

And transform into Godhilla, a fifty foot tall dinosaur. Then, she will trample Tokyo. The Japanese Army will lure her to Fukushima, but the radiation there will only make her stronger.

She will then go to Greece and start destroying Athens. Following an old legend, a young girl will pray for help at the foot of Mount Olympus. And down will come Appollo, the Titans, and the Heroes, who will shoot GodHilla with their golden arrows, sending her falling into a volcano to Hades.

The Titans will then rebuild Athens and Tokyo, and they will seal off Fukushima reminding us never again to unleash such powers as Hillary Clinton and nuclear energy, or even the gods may not be able to save us from such foolishness again.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #63)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:28 AM

73. Bwa-ha-ha. Nominating for a DUZY - n/t

 

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 02:32 AM

67. And do you think the US should directly grant funds for Greek benefits?

 

Because no one will want to fund them now.

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Response to dkf (Reply #67)

Mon May 7, 2012, 02:44 AM

68. I think the U.S. should make sure that U.S.-owned companies doing business in Greece

 

start damn well paying the taxes the OWE to Greece, rather than continuing to dodge them...AND that the U.S. should use its influence to get Germany and the EU to back off of vicious austerity demands that, essentially, the entire Greek social welfare system must be demolished and that pensions for elderly Greeks should essentially be abolished(you are aware, I assume, that a Greek pensioner just burned himself to death because the EU austerity demands reduced his pension to a level too low for him to live with dignity...and that it's like that others may join him in that choice, or, frankly, simply starve to death in unheated or uncooled apartments, just to appease the financial vampires who are bleeding Greece to death).

And if the Greek industrial/financial class stages a capital strike, I hope that President Obama will defend the democratic rights of the Greek people and support them if they do what they will then be morally entitled to do, and seize control of the Greek economy, running it by themselves for the good of all. He won't, of course...but that's what a decent human being with a backbone WOULD do.

AND the U.S. should seize any and all assets of all the Greek multimillionaires who plunged their country into this fiscal crisis through their refusal to contribute their fair share to social upkeep. This was their fault, the fault of the ND government that let costs get hopelessly out of hand for the Athens Olympics, and the fault of the international financial sharks who made Greece the victims of their bad loan bundling and other predatory practices. The workers and the poor of Greece bear no responsibility for the shortfall whatsoever. Indeed, before the banks and the Germans invented this "crisis", the Greek government ran one of the most frugal social welfare systems in all of Europe.

If Germany and the EU get their way on all of this, Greece will have no reason to ever call an election again, because it will be forced to be Mega-Thatcherite for the rest of eternity. It simply won't matter which faction of elitists administers the perpetual sacrifice and misery. And that will create the situation the wealthy, all over the world, actually want-freedom FROM democracy.

I'm not, of course, surprised, that, once again, you've taken the side of the rich against common humanity. You'll insist that "progressive-led" austerity is different than right-wing austerity...and you'll look delusional to any Greek person who might be reading this, or anyone else who is losing all their dignity and hope in the name of "paying the banks what they're owed". Typical.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #68)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:12 AM

71. But GREECE is the FLEA!! Who cares if someone looks delusional to them!

 



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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #68)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:27 AM

72. One of the most frugal benefit systems in the EU? Can you back that up?

 

Less benefits than the Germans perhaps?

And I take it your answer is "no".

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Response to dkf (Reply #72)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:47 AM

74. Here's one measure, from the FAIR website:

 

Greece spends a greater percent of its GDP than any other EU country on the military, while it ranks second to last in teacher salaries
(Dollars and Sense, 4/14/10). USA Today (5/10/10) put a rare human face on austerity proposals with a profile of a Greek schoolteacher, accurately summing up her situation as “a hard life [that’s] about to get harder.”



Greece also has
a particularly under staffed and poorly organized tax authority


(according to "The Citizens" a conservative website I just checked)

which is clearly far more important to the crisis than any amount of pensions spending.

And here's the thing about pensions...if the Greeks keep cutting them, they'll force older people to keep working, which sounds like the sort ot "rugged individualism" you cheerlead for, but it would also mean that, because those people were taking up the jobs, YOUTH unemployment would massively increase, which would mean that, with the cuts in unemployment coverage that are also happening in Greece, those young people would have no choice to leave, depriving Greece of a population base and thus reducing tax revenues. How, exactly, would THAT make anything better?

The notion of Greece as a victim of big social spending is a right-wing myth. If you call yourself a progressive, you have an obligation to always be against demands for punitive austerity.

The "crisis" was caused by the previous right-wing government and the rich tax evaders. And only THEY should have to sacrifice to solve this "crisis".

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Response to dkf (Reply #72)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:23 AM

80. The Greek social safety net is very modest by European standards.

Greece does offer a decent pension to some, but this was a political choice made through the decades and it came with a price. Greeks traded away unemployment compensation and other standard benefits to preserve those pensions.

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Response to girl gone mad (Reply #80)

Mon May 7, 2012, 05:23 AM

84. Greece's generous pensions What makes Germans so very cross about Greece?

 

It is not only that our EU partners are angry about our lying to them (and to ourselves) about the state of our finances, nor is it only that they will have to help us politically or economically (or both), but there is also the rather damning fact that in many aspects the Greeks enjoy a more privileged life than their German partners in the EU. Through all this borrowing, Greek salaries and pensions rose far above (about 30 percent) Greek productivity. This means that even if salaries in many cases (though not all) were still lower than the German equivalent, pensions were higher, and usually paid at an earlier age. So there is no longer a feeling of the richer EU countries helping their poorer partners – Greece’s mess comes across as exploitation of the underprivileged by the pampered.
Actually, even this frank analysis has skated over some still nastier gulfs of understanding and misunderstanding. Because the outside world looks at Greek pensions and sees a mess of special interest groups securing unaffordable pensions from successive governments, more or less as electoral bribes. (There have been special pension deals over the years for civil servants, for Olympic Airlines staff, farmers, wives of farmers, employees at the National Bank of Greece, even I am told hairdressers, the list is very long).

But seen from the perspective of ordinary Greeks, it has not felt so cosy as all that. If the pension scheme is utterly broke, it is not just because of greedy Greeks.

This devastating academic study details how many Greek state bodies failed to make the correct contributions for their employees, in some cases for years. Then the Greek central government "essentially appropriated" social insurance funds by investing them in state securities or depositing them in the Bank of Greece at low interest rates. Finally, as in many Mediterranean countries, all social spending was skewed towards pensions, essentially for vote-winning purposes. Things like unemployment benefits are pretty miserly in Greece, the real money has always gone to pensions, which have been used as a "substitute" for other welfare policies.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/02/greeces_generous_pensions

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Response to dkf (Reply #84)

Mon May 7, 2012, 05:57 AM

87. On a progressive website, you cite "The Economist"?

 

The voice of the pro-austerity financial elite? The magazine that cheered on the worst that Reagan, Thatcher and Pinochet did to working people?

What the hell, dude?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #87)

Mon May 7, 2012, 07:07 AM

89. This is what came up when I googled for Greek vs German pensions.

 

If you have a better source I would be interested in seeing it.

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Response to dkf (Reply #89)

Fri May 11, 2012, 03:40 PM

127. All that tells us is that Greece pays somewhat more for pensions than Germany

 

What you don't seem to get is that Merkel is fiscally persecuting Greece just to get out of having to give her own country a decent pension system.

And the fact remains...if the wealthy in Greece and the corporations doing business there had actually PAID the taxes they were legally obligated to pay, there would have been no "crisis".

What happened in Greece was the banks taking the opportunity to punish the workers and the poor for daring not to die out.

How can you take the side of the financial cabal on all of this and still claim to be a "progressive".

The last four years SHOULD have made the scales fall from your eyes.

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Response to dkf (Reply #84)

Mon May 7, 2012, 07:27 AM

91. Even from a neoliberal magazine..

you can glimpse what has happened, as the banks conspired to loot from the people. As I was telling you, standard benefits were traded away while these pensions were propped up. Yes, the politicians bought votes bu making these promises. No, this is not even close to being the cause of the crisis in Greece.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #68)

Tue May 8, 2012, 12:13 PM

118. I wish I could do a 'DUrec' for this comment! I'm 100% on board!

The Right has done a brilliant job of selling the idea that social spending is what has collapsed the economies of Portugal-Spain-Ireland-Iceland-Greece and that austerity is the 'cure.' Actually, it has been the predatory banksters that caused the calamity and 'austerity' is the equivalent of medieval doctors bleeding a patient to cure the disease (Which frequently killed the patient!).

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 02:44 AM

69. I think that Hillary and Bill will call their broker and pronto!

That's how they will respond to the situation.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #69)

Mon May 7, 2012, 02:50 AM

70. That, too. Of course.

 

We know which class has THEIR loyalty.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:49 AM

75. Christ, she's still trying to wash the blood off her hands from 1,000,000+

 

dead Iraqis. Haiti and Honduras are mere footnotes to that little matter.

But K&R anyway.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:54 AM

76. Assuming she's the monster you think she is

She probably won't have to do much. The party with the greatest share of the votes is the rightwing New Democracy bunch who were in power already. They will have 3 days to form a coalition government with PASOK, the nominally Socialist party that was elected to clean up the financial mess in 2009, but which fell on its sword when it accepted the austerity for bailout plan pushed by the northern tier of EU states, basically committing the party equivalent of suicide to protect Greece's EU membership. Even that coalition of enemies falls short of the seats required for a working government by two seats, which means the coalition has to be rounded out with a far far far right party.

In that case, Hillary's job would already be done for her.

If that effort to form a coalition fails, the second place finisher Syriza (the upstart keepin-it-real, anti-austerity-for-bailouts Socialist front) gets a shot at forming a coalition government, They'd be starting with the remnants of PASOK , which was completely arseholed by the Greek electorate for giving into the bailout blackmail, going from 160 seats to just 41. Obviously they will then have to go fishing for coalition partners among the splinter rightwing crazies.

And if that effort fails, then 3rd place finisher PASOK gets a chance to form a coalition government...

If no coalition is worked out at the end of one month, new elections will be held.

Since no party will likely hold an absolute majority after fresh elections, the first place finisher will have three days to form a coalition....

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:56 AM

77. Seriously this is a pancake on rabbit type of question

You've totally lost me.

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Response to RFKHumphreyObama (Reply #77)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:09 AM

78. What the hell is a "pancake on rabbit type of question"?

 

YOU'VE completely lost ME, buddy.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 04:31 AM

82. Be careful

Admitting Hillary is a fan of right wing power when it suits her wallet is sure to get you thrown to the PUMA pit. They are busy gearing up for 2016, y' know?

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #82)

Mon May 7, 2012, 05:54 AM

86. That has become pretty obvious in this thread by now.

 

Some folks here think that imperialism is fine, so long as it's led by an empress.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #86)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:22 PM

102. if Hillary says/does that then it will probably be because it's Obama's policy

that's kind of how it works.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 07:26 AM

90. She will unleash the Kraken

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 09:02 AM

96. Quickly now - get an email off to President Obama.

He needs to know what you have uncovered.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 01:53 PM

99. You left out Colombia



The Third Way response to the people's push backs in Greece and France, judging from their vicious history in other countries, won't be pretty.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 02:51 PM

100. ...

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 02:57 PM

101. Maybe re-invade Grenada.

But your questions are super important. Kieros from Athens is already getting tuckered out, and more Chicago boy shock doctrine austerity while neo-nazis are getting elected into office seems like a bad idea, even before another military coup occurs. Rivals the pre-WWI balkan flash point.

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Response to Mc Mike (Reply #101)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:32 PM

104. Care to explain Chicago "boy" shock doctrine? nt

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #104)

Tue May 8, 2012, 10:34 AM

114. Naomi Klein's '07 book. P. 61 on Milton Friedman.

It looks like there's 2 different issues on this post. 1) Whether to back Sec. Clinton and how much power and independence she has.
2)Exactly what's happening in Greece and other European Union partners that are teetering economically (and politically, socially).

I back Pres Obama and Sec Clinton in '12. How much foreign and econ policy control they can exert over this serious situation in Greece is debatable. My opt out scenario of re-taking Grenada wasn't a slur vs. our current Dem admin, just whistling in the dark. I know Sec. Clinton had nothing to do with Raygun pulling out of the Lebanon hot-spot and hitting Grenada, to chalk up a 'win'. I believe the harsh response to Ken here is by people that want Clinton in '16, and I'm thinking about '12. Adverse post-ers on this thread might also just want some recognition of the enormous amount of work our S.O.S. is doing, and I freely admit it.

Chicago boy shock doctrine addresses # 2. Didn't mean for it to be cryptic. Ms. Klein is a syndicated writer for The Nation, The Guardian, and Harpers; and Former Fellow at the London School of Econ. Her book 'The Shock Doctrine' covered the Milton Friedman University of Chicago neo-liberal school of economic thought, whose adherents sometimes self-appelate as the Chicago Boys (p. 95). It was interesting watching Prof. Krugman recently on R. Maddow trying to 're-claim' Friedman, but I think he was just saying current repug economic policy makes Friedman look reasonable, like how Dem politicians will sometimes 'appropriate' the positive aspects of Nixon or Reagan in order to illustrate how out of whack current GOP 'thinking' is.

Prof. Klein talks about WTO \ IMF {"business-friendly policies imposed through arm twisting...The three trademark demands -- privatization, government deregulation, and deep cuts to social spending ... extremely unpopular with citizens..." (p. 10).} That's Greece. I saw Kieros the Athens protest dog running around on this site a while back, ironically putting a 'human face' on the struggle there, which looks like Arab Spring and Occupy. As a Rainbow Coalition labor Dem, I see the Greek protestors and those other groups as allies, who are against the shock doctrine measures enacted against the 99%, by WTO (GATT, Free Trade agreements), IMF-World Bank, G-8 \ G-20, and E. U. economic policy.

Prof. Klein discussed how that alphabet soup of governmental and quasi-governmental groups actually use crises (social, political, economic), wars, and natural disasters to impose austerity on the citizens, and their corporate and financial industry 1%-er friends make a heap of money in the process. She shows where those groups precipitate crises, then use them and make profits. That's the shock doctrine. Her book gives a ton of good info, I have it dog-eared and marked up extensively.

Greece has strikes and riots, hopeless citizens turning to nazi strong men for an answer, and the possibility of another far-right military coup. The Greeks and Turks are militarized and have long-standing problems with each other. The Turks are embroiled against the Kurds, down into Iraq. The Greeks oppose the existence of Macedonia, which western financial interests carved out of the carcass of Yugoslavia. Last I heard, they oppose its recognition in the UN. So we're looking at a flash point that stretches from the Balkan WWI flash point right down into Iraq, where the whole Middle East is a tinder-box. Not an easy job for our Sec. of State.

Lastly, I call the Dailey bros the Dailey 'Boys', myself. Mayor Emmanuel has a certain boyish charm, and boyish good looks, but I was sorry to hear his opinion on progressives' mental capacities. Klein and Palast both cover the Friedman economic 'Chicago Boys' ethically shaky moves. I'd never call the Pres a 'boy', or the Sec a 'girl', but their connections to Chicago are extensive. I opposed the DLC, in every election primary for the last 20 years, even before the Koch-connection was revealed. But given the GOP penchant for constantly fielding a candidate that is more stupid, craven, and feckless than their previous election cycle offering, I anticipate them running Pauly Shore in '16. So whoever the repugs run, if Sec. Clinton is our party's nominee, I'll cast my first vote for a DLC candidate.





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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Mon May 7, 2012, 03:39 PM

105. Ken: you may be right, you may not be. But I'm not ridiculing you.

 

I'm sorry if this feels like a thread hijack, but I'm more concerned with people's reactions (first, they ridicule you....sound familiar?). Most respondents to this thread seem to want to score points with one another by suggesting that you're a little off, that you have a marble loose, etc. Again, I don't really know enough about the situation, about macroeconomics, or about Greece itself to know how this will play out--but neither do the others replying to this thread. And I don't pretend to know what's on Hillary Clinton's mind today, but to act as though she's not capable of less-than-savory actions would be to deny both her history, and the position of Secretary of State. They don't pick Sunday School teachers for that position, and I think you brought up a topic worthy of actual discussion.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #105)

Fri May 11, 2012, 03:35 PM

126. Thanks for the thoughtful post.

 

I started a thread that made some people uncomfortable.

It started a discussion that was outside their "comfort zone".

The response from such quarters was to be expected.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Tue May 8, 2012, 08:07 AM

113. I was hoping this would be a Text From Hillary

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #113)

Tue May 8, 2012, 01:18 PM

123. Me too. I love those badass sunglasses. nt

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Tue May 8, 2012, 12:25 PM

119. Hillary WILL support the interests of the IMF and the Global Banks.

They OWN our government no matter WHO we vote for.
....but she will make a good show of feeling the pain in front of the TV Cameras,
as will President Obama.
That is the difference between the Republicans and the Democrats on Foreign Policy.
The Democrats make SURE that the World sees them feeling the pain as they drop the hammer.


Foreign Policy is above their pay grade.
Sure, they are allowed to put whatever pretty face they want on it,
but the nuts and bolts of our "Foreign Policy" hasn't changed for over 50 years whether it was the conservative Republicans or conservative Democrats holding the White House and majorities in Congress.

*We WILL grab WHAT we can WHEN we can,
not FOR the American People who WILL pay for it,
but FOR the Global Corporations and the 1%.
SEE: Iraq and the "Oil Law".
SEE: Libya and the IMF

*We WILL support the forces of International Predatory (Disaster) Capitalism,
even if it means financing Dictators and Death Squads.

*Our military is at the disposal of the G-8, WTO, and the IMF.
Bad stuff will happen to anyone who says "NO" to the IMF.

*We WILL support, arm, and finance Israel
no matter WHAT the cost and no matter WHAT the government of Israel does.

Hillary, Bush, Obama, Bolton, Reagan, Rice, Powell .... it just doesn't matter.
Some things do NOT change, even when the White House does.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Tue May 8, 2012, 01:02 PM

120. What ever it turns out to be

 

I bet it'll more resemble Maggie Thatcher's thuggery than Indira Ghandi's grace!

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Tue May 8, 2012, 01:13 PM

122. She'll carry out the orders given to her by her boss, the President of the United States.

You need to go have some juice and a cookie.

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