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Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:33 AM

I think the Baltimore cops were cowboying around resulting in the fatal injury to Freddie.

I listened to Rachel Maddow....

Sounds to me it was a combination of events.. I sense initial injury of a cracked spine/ vertebrae occurred at the chase take-down. Then he got a "rough ride" in the van, unrestrained and handcuffed which extended and displaced the spinal cracks into fracture shards cutting the spine. Fractured larynx from an impact hit to the throat during a toss in the van...probably hitting the bench while handcuffed and striking his neck area during a toss when brakes applied to van. Hitting the bench at the larynx area also could of extended the spinal cracks in vertebrae...making complete fractures and severing spinal cord.

That's my sense of breakdown scenario. Rachel gave no injury speculation but did give details of the transport phase. It's just my look at the options...

I think the rough ride was done because they were pisst after having to chase him for several blocks.....No intentional harm but always dangerous for obvious reasons. The ride to the jail was only 30 minutes...they admitted to making I believe, 3 stops. Maybe the term cowboying around does not fit...I don't see malicious/ malice either....

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Reply I think the Baltimore cops were cowboying around resulting in the fatal injury to Freddie. (Original post)
FarPoint Apr 2015 OP
notadmblnd Apr 2015 #1
bravenak Apr 2015 #2
FarPoint Apr 2015 #4
bravenak Apr 2015 #7
FarPoint Apr 2015 #10
bravenak Apr 2015 #11
FarPoint Apr 2015 #15
bravenak Apr 2015 #21
FarPoint Apr 2015 #24
bravenak Apr 2015 #25
lapfog_1 Apr 2015 #77
FarPoint Apr 2015 #79
DURHAM D Apr 2015 #23
FarPoint Apr 2015 #26
DURHAM D Apr 2015 #35
FarPoint Apr 2015 #82
Atman Apr 2015 #36
FarPoint Apr 2015 #60
Liberal_Stalwart71 Apr 2015 #118
lovemydog Apr 2015 #42
FarPoint Apr 2015 #76
lovemydog Apr 2015 #92
Ms. Toad Apr 2015 #103
lovemydog Apr 2015 #107
Ms. Toad Apr 2015 #111
lovemydog Apr 2015 #116
tularetom Apr 2015 #80
FarPoint Apr 2015 #99
ann--- Apr 2015 #32
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2015 #47
Recursion Apr 2015 #96
Sunlei Apr 2015 #56
FarPoint Apr 2015 #61
Sunlei Apr 2015 #63
FarPoint Apr 2015 #67
TransitJohn Apr 2015 #109
Jesus Malverde Apr 2015 #54
newfie11 Apr 2015 #3
FarPoint Apr 2015 #6
newfie11 Apr 2015 #18
JustAnotherGen Apr 2015 #45
FarPoint Apr 2015 #62
JustAnotherGen Apr 2015 #64
FarPoint Apr 2015 #69
LanternWaste Apr 2015 #75
JustAnotherGen Apr 2015 #90
FarPoint Apr 2015 #115
FarPoint Apr 2015 #83
JustAnotherGen Apr 2015 #89
hobbit709 Apr 2015 #5
FarPoint Apr 2015 #8
enough Apr 2015 #9
FarPoint Apr 2015 #12
Jackpine Radical Apr 2015 #29
arcane1 Apr 2015 #81
yardwork Apr 2015 #102
Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #13
FarPoint Apr 2015 #19
Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #20
Vinca Apr 2015 #14
Katashi_itto Apr 2015 #16
alcibiades_mystery Apr 2015 #17
FarPoint Apr 2015 #22
ProfessorGAC Apr 2015 #30
alcibiades_mystery Apr 2015 #66
FarPoint Apr 2015 #72
alcibiades_mystery Apr 2015 #74
FarPoint Apr 2015 #78
Brickbat Apr 2015 #27
FarPoint Apr 2015 #34
Brickbat Apr 2015 #40
HereSince1628 Apr 2015 #28
FarPoint Apr 2015 #31
HereSince1628 Apr 2015 #43
boston bean Apr 2015 #33
FarPoint Apr 2015 #38
boston bean Apr 2015 #41
FarPoint Apr 2015 #73
NM_Birder Apr 2015 #58
Recursion Apr 2015 #95
JustAnotherGen Apr 2015 #37
CBGLuthier Apr 2015 #39
Sunlei Apr 2015 #44
PoliticAverse Apr 2015 #46
Stinky The Clown Apr 2015 #48
Euphoria Apr 2015 #49
99Forever Apr 2015 #50
FarPoint Apr 2015 #65
99Forever Apr 2015 #68
FarPoint Apr 2015 #71
lovemydog Apr 2015 #51
BklnDem75 Apr 2015 #52
FSogol Apr 2015 #53
PoliticAverse Apr 2015 #55
backscatter712 Apr 2015 #57
FarPoint Apr 2015 #85
gollygee Apr 2015 #59
La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2015 #70
FarPoint Apr 2015 #84
JI7 Apr 2015 #86
Calista241 Apr 2015 #91
Catherine Vincent Apr 2015 #87
FarPoint Apr 2015 #88
A-Schwarzenegger Apr 2015 #93
Number23 Apr 2015 #94
FarPoint Apr 2015 #97
gollygee Apr 2015 #98
FarPoint Apr 2015 #100
gollygee Apr 2015 #101
csziggy Apr 2015 #104
randome Apr 2015 #106
csziggy Apr 2015 #108
Tom Rinaldo Apr 2015 #105
La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2015 #110
Tom Rinaldo Apr 2015 #112
Tom Rinaldo Apr 2015 #113
La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2015 #114
herding cats Apr 2015 #117

Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:37 AM

1. how do you not see malice?

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:39 AM

2. The malice is where they broke his neck and then left him unstrapped to rough ride him.

 

It was intended to cause injury. It was certainly malicious malice. Murder.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #2)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:47 AM

4. I'm thinking the neck fracture was hairline intially....

A freak incident at the time....The "rough ride" ultimately sent the treatable injury into fatal severed spine...exacerbated the unknown hairline fractures in the vertebrae into bone shards.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:49 AM

7. So, you see no malice in that?

 

How about if it wrre you? Would you then see the malice? He was never charged with a crime that day. It could be your kid or a person who you know. I think if it happened to you the malice would be obvious.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:52 AM

10. I think the rough ride was passive-aggressive.

No intent to harm as in shooting someone in the back or unarmed. The rough ride probably sealed his fate.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #10)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:54 AM

11. No intent to harm through a violent drive, handcuffed with a broken neck?

 

Jesus christ, you're serious. Shameful.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #11)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:59 AM

15. They didn't realize he had a neck injury.

They didn't really assess him either...apparently assumed he was lying. They had him in control as they loaded him into the van which was an opportunity to call for a medial check before transporting. Another failure.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #15)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:03 AM

21. So they ignore his pleas for medical assistance, then rough ride him.

 

And to you, that is not malicious. It would be nice if one could shoot video of themselves on a non malicious rough ride of thirty minutes in length after the cops broke ones neck and ignored their pleas to show us what it looks like. I just cannot believe you are serious.
It was malicious and it seems you are twisting yourself into a pretzel to pretend to yourself that it was not.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #21)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:08 AM

24. You seem hung up on the malice intent....I realize that is your position.

I don't think the cops realized he was really hurt. If they did think he was injured, I sense they would of done the right thing.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #24)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:11 AM

25. Malice was the word used in your op.

 

I call it murder. He said he was injured. They ignored his pleas for help. It killed him. If I did that it would be murder. They have done this to people before causing paralysis. They knew that the city had paid millions for stuff like this. They had no respect for human life in a depraved manner. Murder is was it is. Giving killers the benefit of doubt just because they have badges is what leads to RIOTS.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #24)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:33 PM

77. if you or I did this

no matter what intent we may have had in our minds...

we would be charged and convicted of manslaughter or murder.

Intent is the interpretation of actions. If they gave him a "rough ride" they intended him to be harmed. That he died from this action is enough to escalate it to murder.

And apparently they knew that this could result in injury because a previous prisoner, similarly handcuffed, was paralyzed from the rough ride he received at the hands of Baltimore cops.

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #77)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:38 PM

79. I definitely see manslaughter as a minimum charge for most of the cops.

Too early to know if all could/ should be charged but manslaughter is the minimum I see. ..

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #15)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:06 AM

23. You think they didn't notice that he could not walk

as they drug him to the van?

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #23)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:12 AM

26. I think they missed the clues or symptoms of injury.

They probably tuned out the complaints that he voiced as typical for the arrest. Assumed he was making a false claim. I actually think if they would of taken the time to call medical at the scene before transport for assessment...we would of had a better outcome.

I think the cops assume everyone arrested asking for medial are misleading them so they can delay going to jail...cops hate the paperwork and these cops just moved on....

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:18 AM

35. But they didn't take him for assessment because

they didn't care.

Why are you speculating about this and providing a defense to uniformed thugs? Did you start this OP because you need some attention?

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #35)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 01:21 PM

82. I wanted to discuss the events ...

See what others think and know...Look at the transpiring events with open mind.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:20 AM

36. Wow.

I think you're messed up, looking for any absurd reason to excuse the cops who murdered this man. I don't use the term "murdered" lightly, but you seem to want us to think it was just another day on the job. Which is exactly the problem. To the cops, killing Freddie was just another day on the job.

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Response to Atman (Reply #36)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 11:08 AM

60. Slow down a minute.

I'm not in combat mode by any means...I'm looking at how this tragic loss occurred. I won't fight..just discuss. I'm trying to hear what others understand what went down. Not defending the cops. They totally screwed up...arrogance and being mentally burned out probably caused them to loose focus and we ended up with the death.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #60)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 04:59 PM

118. No. Deliberate neglect and murder of an unarmed black man.

 

That's why you don't care. That's why you are doing everything possible to take the cops' side. Despicable!

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:30 AM

42. It's felony-murder.

Murder while in commission of a felony.

Unless you consider the victim as chattel. Honestly, from your posts here, it seems like you do.

You're doing cartwheels to try and find some sort of excuses for the police behavior. I guess you give them the benefit of the doubt way more than me.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #42)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:31 PM

76. I'm not giving them anything.....

Just a starting point. Discussion can be fruitful. I'm not quick to call it murder without looking at big picture...This isn't a shooting of an unarmed civilian.... More involved regarding how it happened based what information we have at the moment. Some folks have more data information than I found.

Ultimately, the autopsy will be revealing. I heard the family secured a private autopsy as well. Good.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #76)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 06:18 PM

92. I understand the value of discussion.

Yes, it can be fruitful.

Here's the facts as presented this morning by USA Today: 'The riots stem from the death of Gray. He was arrested on April 12 in Baltimore and suffered a life-threatening spinal cord injury while in police custody. Police stopped Gray after he fled "unprovoked upon noticing police presence," Officer Garrett Miller wrote in a police report. Miller said police arrested Gray after they found a knife clipped to his pants pocket. William Murphy, lawyer for the Gray family, says police had no right to pursue and detain Gray. He died in a Baltimore hospital on April 19. Police continue to investigate how Gray sustained the injuries, including the events that transpired during a 45-minute ride that he spent in a police transport van. Police have acknowledged there were issues with Gray's arrest and that officers did not keep Gray seat-belted into the van. Six officers have been suspended with pay while investigators search for answers.'

I feel that from the moment they first pursued and detained Freddie Gray to the moment he died, the police officers displayed a depraved indifference to life. They had no right to pursue and detain him in the first instance. It depends on the state laws of Maryland how it would be considered. Whether depraved & reckless indifference to human life or death during commission of a felony, any way you look at it the police are responsible for Freddie Gray's death. More facts will be placed into evidence. Starting with the facts presented in the above paragraph, I believe all six officers should be charged with homicide.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #92)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 09:19 AM

103. What underlying felony were the police committing? n/t

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #103)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 09:38 AM

107. Felony battery. n/t

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #107)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 10:46 AM

111. Maryland does have an expanded list of predicate felonies,

but Maryland's list still doesn't include battery.

Arson (1st degree only), Burning a barn, stable, or warehouse that contains cattle, horses, or goods, Burglary (all but 4th degree), Carjacking, Escape from custody, Kidnapping,Mayhem, Rape or 1st or 2nd degree sexual offense, Robbery, Sodomy, and Manufacturing or possession of destructive devices

http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutesText.aspx?article=gcr§ion=2-201&ext=html&session=2015RS&tab=subject5

(Normally only the BARK crimes are included: Burglary, Arson, Rape, and Kidnapping. That's why I asked, since it was unlikely the police were committing any of those crimes.)

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #111)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 02:59 PM

116. Understood.

Thanks for the research. The police are responsible for this killing. I trust the investigation brings more facts to light. Regarding felony-murder, that's why I said in an earlier post that another possibility is a homicide charge based upon depraved indifference to human life.

If they were average citizens they could qualify under the kidnapping charge as a predicate felony since the victim was running away when they apprehended him, according to his family's lawyer. I know that's unlikely given how much leeway police have. At this point I don't believe their claim that they had a right to detain him. That he was not a fleeing felon and was not in their lawful custody. Not sure how that might play out but I'll be watching the victim's lawyer. I tend not to believe the police claims because in the past when they are responsible for killings they lie and cover up for each other.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:46 PM

80. Yeah, boys will be boys, huh?

Just a little harmless fun, ya know.

Nobody meant for anything to happen like killing a guy. Why are all these people so bent outa shape about it?

Shit happens, right?

ARE YOU FOR FUCKING REAL?

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Response to tularetom (Reply #80)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 08:53 AM

99. Let's discuss it before we judge the entire scenerio.

Did it happen this way? Of course we need more details....but we can do a rough draft of the event timeline.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #15)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:18 AM

32. One clue would have

 

been his screaming and dragging his legs (unable to walk on his own) BEFORE
being put into the van. They should have laid him down on the ground and called
for an ambulance - period.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #10)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:46 AM

47. Passive aggressive?

No, it was 'aggressive aggressive'. Hell, that sort of 'rough ride' was so common they had a nickname for it. They knew it would result in him getting slammed around during the ride. Just like the 'takedown' was 'aggressive aggressive'. I don't give 'free passes' to people who knowingly do things that can result in injuries or death when they don't have to. I agree that there's no real evidence yet released to show that they intended for him to die as a result of what they did. But they were negligent and willing to do things that could (and DID) result in his death. Second degree homicide from where I'm sitting.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #10)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 06:07 AM

96. Passive aggressive is when I leave my wife's coffee mug unwashed in the sink

because she didn't help me with the dishes the night before.

Brutality that causes the death of another human being is not "passive aggressive", even if they didn't intend his death.

And actually I've been on a nickel ride before (the joys of working in Fells Point in the 90s) and it's definitely a violent act.

If your point is that the cops didn't intend for him to die, there's probably truth to that, but I might rethink how you phrased your OP, personally.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #4)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 10:11 AM

56. a freak accident? try getting knocked off your bike onto pavement and let 4 men crush you down &

have one of the angry men grab your throat and head and give it some bone crushing twists.

WTF, a 'freak accident' !!

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #56)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 11:10 AM

61. I saw no video or discussion regarding the take down off bike.

Thanks for the information.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #61)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 11:16 AM

63. yes, your police are such gentle souls,they never knock anyone to pavement and pile on.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #63)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:09 PM

67. I didn't see it only read what you shared regarding the initial take down.

I'm sensing the primary injury occurred at that time.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #4)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 09:56 AM

109. Good God, really?

You're like Frist diagnosing Schiavo.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #2)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 09:37 AM

54. +1

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:44 AM

3. 85% severed spinal cord

That's some serious beating.
He asked for inhalers but didn't get one, the van stopped twice on way to Hosp and he was removed at least once is what I've read.

This is not looking good for the cops YET AGAIN!

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:48 AM

6. I don't think he was beaten by a cop...

Indirectly he was via the "rough ride".

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:00 AM

18. He had no control of his legs

When they were dragging him to the van. At any rate the cops killed him, of that there is no doubt.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:35 AM

45. The rough ride was deliberate

And they got off on it.

It's called a sock and lotion - that's a no harm no foul situation.

Instead - they bust a nut over being sick bastards.

That's what I think of them. They are filth and a pestilence.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #45)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 11:13 AM

62. That's educational information.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #62)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 11:23 AM

64. Don't care - I think the same

Of the original post. I hope I offended. That was the goal. The *intent*.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #64)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:14 PM

69. Don't treat others like that please.

I knew it was a risk to even talk to anyone here about the event. DU has lost it's zest for open discussion. Posting replies to be deliberately offensive to another makes people drop DU.

I have surrendered to the fact discussion is no longer welcome.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #69)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:25 PM

75. Concluding that 2+2=7, lacking any firm evidence, is not open discussion.

"DU has lost it's zest for open discussion..."

Concluding that 2+2=7, lacking any firm evidence, is not open discussion regardless of whether one calls it as much or not.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #69)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 02:40 PM

90. Don't tell me what to do

Alert or bring me up to Mirt.

If you can't handle harsh words and images - stay off the internet.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #90)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 01:23 PM

115. Do you like being bolsterous, a bully?

Maybe you missed your calling.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #64)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 01:23 PM

83. You degrade yourself...

Makes you insignificant now. Too bad you want to be unpleasant.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #83)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 02:38 PM

89. no I didnt

I'm a woman and I call them as I see them.

Chastise me all you want. I think your op made you someone I would never allow in my home is speak to.

You - you make excuses for murderers. Seven to be exact. Shame on you.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:47 AM

5. Doesn't matter what they were doing. It was wrong, PERIOD!

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #5)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:49 AM

8. Yes....

He appeared under control essentially when loading him into the van. They could of called for medical then.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:51 AM

9. No intentional harm? Then why do it?

This is part of a known pattern of police behavior with KNOWN serious "harm."

Read this article and then ask yourself if harm was intended:

http://touch.baltimoresun.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-83373499/

snip>

But Gray is not the first person to come out of a Baltimore police wagon with serious injuries.

Relatives of Dondi Johnson Sr., who was left a paraplegic after a 2005 police van ride, won a $7.4 million verdict against police officers. A year earlier, Jeffrey Alston was awarded $39 million by a jury after he became paralyzed from the neck down as the result of a van ride. Others have also received payouts after filing lawsuits.

For some, such injuries have been inflicted by what is known as a "rough ride" — an "unsanctioned technique" in which police vans are driven to cause "injury or pain" to unbuckled, handcuffed detainees, former city police officer Charles J. Key testified as an expert five years ago in a lawsuit over Johnson's subsequent death.

snip>

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Response to enough (Reply #9)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:56 AM

12. I believe the "rough ride" practice will be history now.

It's the first time I have heard of it but now have become aware that it is a frequent, secret practice. Exposure to the public of this abuse has been the only positive from this tragedy.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #12)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:15 AM

29. And obviously not done with malicious intent, right?

So they drag this guy into the van, his legs not working, and, like, maybe figure they can jostle his spinal cord back into place using the same clinical method they used on those other guys, trying to fix their spines too.

You know, the guys whose ungrateful families then sued?

That your story?

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #12)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:48 PM

81. It is also, by its very nature, malicious. n/t

 

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 09:09 AM

102. That's not how it works.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:58 AM

13. You dont see malice?

Did you watch the video -- and hear that dude scream as they were taking him off his bike???

"Malice" was implied the minute they didnt stop and call him an ambulance, right then and there.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #13)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:00 AM

19. Neglect and poor judgement....

I don't see direct malice intent.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:03 AM

20. Someone screams like that and you keep dragging them in cuffs to a van

It is malice IMHO.

Willful disregard for another.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:59 AM

14. I flipped onto one of the Faux channels this morning and actually heard someone

suggest the guy severed his spinal cord while running away from the cops. Apparently they believe a spinal cord is as fragile as a piece of overcooked linguine.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:00 AM

16. "Cowboying Around Hmmm.." It's all good fun right? From Movie Death Proof ....

 

Well Pam ,Which Way You Going , Left Or Right ? ( Pam's Death Scene )

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:00 AM

17. "No intentional harm but always dangerous for obvious reasons"

 

Oh for motherfuck's sake!

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #17)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:04 AM

22. I'm throwing this OP post out here to get feedback...

I know we have to wait for the autopsy report etc,,,, I always want to understand what happened. I'm just speculating....like anyone else.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #22)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:16 AM

30. You're Speculating Wildly, Though

It's not the same as "anyone else". You're speculating so far as to decide that there was no intent to do harm. Don't know how one draws that conclusion from mild speculation.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #22)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:09 PM

66. Disgusting

 

Absolutely disgusting.

Hope you're having a good laugh.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #66)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:18 PM

72. No need for the attitude.

I'm only wanting to discuss the scenario...It's no laughing matter!

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #72)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:23 PM

74. Your behavior is transparent and reprehensible

 

Like I said, disgusting. That's the last response from me to you, anyway. Everyone here can see what you're doing.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #74)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:35 PM

78. I'm discussing the injury event.

No sides taken! Not trying to defend or deny ..just looking at it injury event. Folks are always looking to fight ...I am NOT.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:13 AM

27. You keep talking about what you don't see. So what is it, exactly, that you do see?

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:18 AM

34. ????????

I am in speculation mode. Opened up discussion on the injury scenario.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #34)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:27 AM

40. Oh, I totally understand! I'm just interested in what you DO see, after all you said you DON'T see:

You say you don't see intentional harm or malice. So you're speculating it was an accident?

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:13 AM

28. Cowboying? No, more like an evil fictional sheriff imposing street justice

I think your time-line is right, but it's not playful horsing around and release of pent-up energy...it's criminal non-judicial application of street level justice. It's because many police see themselves as 'enforcers' entitled to dole out punishment. They've slid into acceptance of such illegal brutality as part of their jobs although it is not.

American police methods have come to accept imposition of pain as reasonable act to get compliance. Under such institutionalized rules any act of non-compliance can be confronted with pain at the discretion of street officers. Any self-protection/resistance against such brutality is called an assault on police, who quickly invoke -their- right to self-protection as justification for more violent acts.

It's not just a few bad hires, so called bad apples, the institution, the bushel basket the apples are put into, is inoculating the contagion into every class of police cadets that graduates and secures employment.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #28)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:16 AM

31. I agree with you there.

Additionally, these cops are done. They won't wear a badge again...Hell...I hope anyways.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #31)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:30 AM

43. The bike cops who did the take down, the paddy-wagon drivers may be done

But I saw scores of cops decked out in riot-gear deployed to intimidate which is to say to threaten infliction of pain and injury to anyone who didn't get out of their way.

Those cops won't be done at all.

Application of violence as a reinforcement of authority seems built into their SOP. Cities spend millions on the equipment that makes this possible. Turning to such martial law, however it is euphemized, is in the emergency management handbooks the police prepared for civilian authorities to operate by during a crisis.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:18 AM

33. I am puking reading the last sentence of the OP.

Where the ever lovin hell does one get to declare this was not malicious nor intended malice??

WTF????

The guy was nearly internally decapitated.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #33)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:25 AM

38. It was the "rough ride"...

I'm assuming the cops ride up front in the van without a cop in the back of the van with a person in custody...So, they didn't have visual of the trauma transpiring.

I am also guessing there would be some type of window to observe the people in the back. Yes, they stopped 3 times so, visual had to of occurred....They apparently didn't pick up on the lethal status of Freddie's condition. That is hard to believe but indeed may of occurred since they were not in the mind frame to look for injury. I make no excuse...just looking at how it may of transpired.

The arrogance of the cops has go to be put into check!

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #38)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:27 AM

41. How is a rough ride not malicious or done without intent of malice?

The last sentence in your OP is cringe worthy, and seems to give defense to these defenseless, malicious acts perpetrated by the police.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #41)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:22 PM

73. Your over analyzing my OP.

I just typed my thoughts for discussion with DU...I have no adgend..... Curious on what happened.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #33)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 10:14 AM

58. "internally decapitated" ?

 


What is that ?

I though he suffered a broken neck and severed spinal column.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #33)


Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:24 AM

37. They were negligent

They deliberately did not put a seat belt on him.

They deliberately did not seek medical assistance for Mr. Gray.

Mr. Gray was due in court next month for drug related charges. He did not murder, rape, abuse, use violence against anyone. These cops that did this are vicious little bastards and they deserve to be tried at minimum for homicide but instead -

They will be resting on their laurels eating Bon bons and getting manis pedis.

Don't worry about the police officers that did this - their buddies will protect them and this will happen again. And they will get away with it again.

Dreams and what not - folks need to step off with their MLK shit. He's dead, move on, it's 2015.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:26 AM

39. I see nothing but malicious intent

When you fail to follow procedures designed for safety what the fuck else can you call it? They have already put a few men into wheelchairs with their vindictive criminal behavior and they were told to stop doing it yet they did it again and this time they killed a man.

We call that manslaughter at the very least. I would charge them with 2nd degree murder.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:32 AM

44. you can see the neck position of the man, & the extension of one leg as police drag him to the van.

Same head turn as a rodeo calf with a rope broken neck.

never move a person in that condition. Not one police officer with the balls to stand up to the others.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:41 AM

46. Punishing someone because you had to chase them would certainly count as 'malicious'. n/t

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:50 AM

48. Its called a "Nickle Ride"

An all too common occurrence.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 08:51 AM

49. It's very uncomfortable to accept that these police

Did indeed kill Freddie, but they did.
No trying to sugar coat the truth. These policemen's actions, while wearing their badge and acting in their paid, trained capacity of officers of the law hurt, injured, utilized means of torture and thus killed Freddie. This torture technique of hog-tying then police-van-ride slamming to injure is a Baltimore police specialty applied quite frequently in Baltimore, according to what links I've read from DU posts.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 09:04 AM

50. Horseshit.

Malice and aforethought is their primary MO. This was an intentional murder.

Just who the fuck do you think you're fooling?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #50)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:07 PM

65. My intention with the post was to engage in discussion.

Your tone towards me is uncalled for.....

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #65)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:11 PM

68. Wrongo.

What was "uncalled for" is making excuses for murdering cops.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #68)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:16 PM

71. Sorry you precieve me as defending...

I'm not...just looking at the steps of the events. Giving my thoughts.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 09:08 AM

51. I've read all your posts in this thread.

Really, still can't believe you typed all that out.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 09:34 AM

52. Interesting...

Malice

1. desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering on another, either because of a hostile impulse or out of deep-seated meanness: the malice and spite of a lifelong enemy.

2. Law. evil intent on the part of a person who commits a wrongful act injurious to others.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/malice


What, exactly, is not malicious about what they did?

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 09:36 AM

53. Where is the Unrec button?

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Response to FSogol (Reply #53)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 10:06 AM

55. Gone, sadly. n/t

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 10:14 AM

57. You don't see malice.

Were you born this stupid or did you have to take lessons?

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #57)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 01:27 PM

85. Just stop it...

please...

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 10:16 AM

59. No malice?

There can be no "rough ride" without malice. And a take down to cause that level of injury in the first place involved malice.

I don't even know what to say here. People work so hard to be OK with police actions.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:16 PM

70. callous disregard to another person's pain and suffering is malicious. nt

 

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #70)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 01:26 PM

84. Okay...

Disregard for others fits this scenario. I'll go with that.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 02:05 PM

86. how is what you describe not malicious ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #86)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 02:58 PM

91. I think it was for 2 reasons:

1. They didn't understand that he was injured.
2. They didn't intend for him to die as a result of their actions.

I think what they did was a crime, the "rough ride." And Freddie Grey's death occured as a direct result of that crime. But that doesn't mean it was malicious.

If the prosecutors can prove that's what happened, then I expect them to proceed.

However, educated guessing is not proof of a crime, and I don't know if anyone will be able to say definitively what exactly happened to cause Freddie Gray's death.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 02:07 PM

87. He went through a lot of pain before he died

To which the pain and death could have been prevented. Just awful. Rest in peace, Freddie Gray.

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Response to Catherine Vincent (Reply #87)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 02:11 PM

88. Absolutely....

May he rest in peace.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 07:50 PM

93. Fantastic

parody of some bullshitting bloodless bureaucrat.

Congratulations.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 02:33 AM

94. You do realize that was a fucking human being you are discussing so callously in your OP

As if he was a dog?

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Response to Number23 (Reply #94)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 08:51 AM

97. It is a clinical speculation....on that the injury event.

It will be in the autopsy and definitely in court. If it happened, the details need to be evaluated for causality.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #97)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 08:53 AM

98. They handcuffed him and put him in the back of the car unrestrained

and then drove around like idiots WITH THE INTENTION of injuring him! That isn't "cowboying" or play - it's intentional injury.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #98)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 09:00 AM

100. It's been exposed as a rough ride had ocurred.

I'm giving leeway wherein the cops may of just wanted to shake him up scare him a little without harm occurring. Yes...the rough ride is abusive, inappropriate and illegal I believe.... Heck, we get seatbelt tickets if our shoulder restrain is not properly applied.

I just want to look at the intent level. It may affect the degree of criminal charges against the cops. I sense they were freaked out too. They have to live with themselves and it probably will be misery. I'm okay with that for now.

That said...maybe they weren't freaked out.

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Response to FarPoint (Reply #100)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 09:03 AM

101. Oh please, why do you think "it will be misery"

We've seen vigilantes and police who have unjustly killed African Americans over and over again and I have yet to see one living in misery because of what they did. They seem more likely to proclaim over and over again how right they were, and maybe even say it was God's plan, and maybe even get paid for speaking engagements.

They intended to injur him. If someone bludgeoned someone and said they were only trying to "shake them up" they'd still be guilty of trying to injur them. Police know how dangerous it is to be unrestrained in a vehicle because they work at accident scenes. They can't feign ignorance on that count.

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 09:25 AM

104. Since Baltimore PD has paid for other cases like this causing paralysis and death

It WAS malicious. The cops involved would have known what could have happened - the department has paid over and over for cops doing exactly the same thing resulting in severe injuries.

Freddie Gray not the first to come out of Baltimore police van with serious injuries
By Doug Donovan and Mark Puente The Baltimore Sun

<SNIP>

Relatives of Dondi Johnson Sr., who was left a paraplegic after a 2005 police van ride, won a $7.4 million verdict against police officers. A year earlier, Jeffrey Alston was awarded $39 million by a jury after he became paralyzed from the neck down as the result of a van ride. Others have also received payouts after filing lawsuits.

<SNIP>

For some, such injuries have been inflicted by what is known as a "rough ride" — an "unsanctioned technique" in which police vans are driven to cause "injury or pain" to unbuckled, handcuffed detainees, former city police officer Charles J. Key testified as an expert five years ago in a lawsuit over Johnson's subsequent death.

<SNIP>

The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.

Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-gray-rough-rides-20150423-story.html#page=1


This wasn't simple carelessness or even an uncaring act. These officers knew EXACTLY what could happen and repeated acts that had caused serious injuries and eventual death previously.

This was deliberate and malicious. In other words it was PREMEDITATED MURDER.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #104)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 09:34 AM

106. I agree it was malicious but I don't think a charge of intentional murder will ever be made.

 

With intentional murder, you would need to believe (or a jury would need to believe) that the cops deliberately decapitated this man because...why? Why would they kill someone in their custody with the knowledge that they would likely pay a price for the murder in some way?

They clearly risked Gray's life in a negligent manner but that's not murder. At best it's voluntary manslaughter.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #106)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 09:47 AM

108. No Baltimore cop has had to pay a price for killing before

For this kind of act - why would they have thought this case would be different. Since Baltimore police killed before in exactly this way - a "nickle ride" that resulted in paralysis and death - if they did NOT intend to kill, why would they repeat the process?

They intentionally treated Gray in exactly the same way that resulted in the death of Dondi Johnson Sr. They knew their actions could kill the prisoner they had chained in the back of the police van without putting a seatbelt on. That certainly seems like intentional murder.

In other articles posted here, it has been shown that Baltimore police responsible for many incidents of excessive violence and even death were not punished. Their actions were covered up by the department and victims were prohibited from disclosing information by the requirements of their settlements.

So why should these cops expect that there would be any consequences for their actions?

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 09:28 AM

105. I have a friend who is an Ex-Baltimore cop

Last edited Wed Apr 29, 2015, 11:23 AM - Edit history (2)

He thinks along your lines. Says they probably threw him in the back with his wrists cuffed behind his back without restraints and then intentionally drove fast over cobblestone streets in Baltimore to rough him up. They didn't plan to kill him or cause serious injuries, but they wanted to hurt him according to what my friend thinks.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #105)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 10:22 AM

110. and intentionally hurting someone is not malicious?

 

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #110)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 11:21 AM

112. Did I say anything to indicate it isn't malicious?

Of course it's malicious. Duh.

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #110)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 11:27 AM

113. I just reread the OP and see that it thought malice was not involved.

Now I better understand your reply to my post. To clarify, I wasn't agreeing with the characterization of non-malice, simply agreeing that the cops let him bounce around in the van intentionally.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #113)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 11:35 AM

114. yeah. sorry, i thought you agreed with OP about lack of malice. my bad

 

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Response to FarPoint (Original post)

Wed Apr 29, 2015, 03:59 PM

117. Intentionally hurting another person is malice/malicious by the very definition of the word.

Malice - Definition

1: desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another
2: intent to commit an unlawful act or cause harm without legal justification or excuse


Now that that's out of the way, they were legally obligated to provide for his safety after taking custody of his person. Which they did not, and instead put him in a situation where their malicious actions appear to have caused his subsequent death. Even if one were to allow that he had sustained some of his injuries before being placed in the back of the van and given the "rough ride" treatment. They were responsible for trying to maintain his safety during the ride.

Then there's the eerily similar incident of 42-year-old Dondi Johnson who was also given the "rough ride" treatment by the Baltimore police to consider.

After his arrival at the hospital, Johnson was interviewed about how he came to be injured. Records say he reported “that he was handcuffed and the wagon made a sharp turn, [he] fell, hitting face first and [heard] a pop and blacked out.


In Mr. Johnson's case he was able to speak about how his injury was sustained before he died, which Mr. Gray was not able to do. Which removed any wiggle room from their denial as to the cause. Yet still, even after the malicious actions by the police caused the grievous injury of the man, the "rough ride" treatment still is being used according to those who have been subjected to it. Even though they knew doing so had already resulted in one man being paralyzed and later dying from his injuries sustained in one of those rides. They still were doing it because they want to inflict pain, injury or distress to those they hold power over. Which is what should elevate Mr. Gray's death beyond negligent homicide in my opinion.

My point being, if we don't start holding those in authority to a much higher standard than we have been in the past, and charge them with the crimes they're committing against people they're supposed to be keeping safe, these sort of actions will never stop. It's not enough for the victims and their loved ones to sue, we need to see our legal system prosecute and convict those responsible for the unnecessary, and in the cases of these "rough rides" torturous, harm they're inflicting on citizens.

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