General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThug is the new Nigg**!!
Seems to me that some people here have not been informed that thug is the replacement word for nigge*. I know that some of you may find that hard to believe, but it is true.
If you find yourself desparate to use that label thug when speaking of black youth and fighting tooth and nail for the right to call them names, then I hafta tell you, there is something wrong inside of you. You gotta work on that.
When white kids riot and burn stuff and act like they done lost their minds over a sporting event, rarely are they castigated in the media and even here on DU as a pack of Thugs; we save that for the poor, desparate, tired, black, underfunded, neglected, redlined, beat down, children who are dealing with multi generational poverty and white supremacy. You know, the black ones. The brown ones too.
When you sit up in your well adjusted tower of American wonderfulness, all pale faced and bitterly angry screaming invectives at poor black youth, it reminds me of those people holding signs to prevent integration, spittle and hate flying in the breeze. That's what you look like. I figured you must not know, otherwise you'd cut it out.
Thug is the New Nigge*. Period.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Response to bravenak (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)I think poster knows very well that the use of the n word used by bigots was never limited for use exclusively toward people of color.
Oh sure, most of the time bigots use the word in regards to African Americans, but I also know that during my 50+ years as a white person- I've heard white people call other white people the n word.
The word THUG will be used no differently by bigots.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I remember me and a best friend holding hands in school and they called her a nlover. We did not get it and asked a teacher. Poor lady was so upset, she cried. 
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Do I count?
We can schedule a "Thug Pride Parade" sometime in June.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)
Judi Lynn
(160,515 posts)Not even close.
Can't imagine what you hope to gain from making that claim. I've never read or heard of it until seeing your post.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)maybe you live in Pleasantville, I don't know. Maybe you just don't get what I said. I'm not going to argue with you. I know what I have experienced and I stand by what I said.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)And I think you OP is 100% right, bravenak.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Because Putin is full of shit.
Cha
(297,131 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)in some areas of the country this will include brown people too.
bravenak
(34,648 posts) 840high
(17,196 posts)
calimary
(81,209 posts)But I don't see the word "thug" applying exclusively to minorities. I actually see it as NOT as loaded a word as the "N-word" because, to me, the word "thug" applies just as accurately (if not MORESO) to the white cops. To the "Stand Yer Ground" dudes like george zimmerman. And the guy who shot into that van of young guys and killed one because he didn't like how loud their music was. HE is a thug. And he's a white guy.
The word "thug" does not have that narrow definition for me. What I saw with that jerk in Tulsa and his little police pals (whom he got hot and hopped-up pretending he was one of) - total thuggery. THOSE dudes were thugs. What I saw when the cops piled on that ONE guy in New York whose only crime was selling individual cigarettes - THOSE were thugs. They totally qualified. What I saw of the loading of the guy into the van - that bordered on thuggery, too. I find myself wondering if maybe his spine wasn't snapped, or compromised, by the very act of loading him into the van. I've seen too much thuggery among white cops. The images from the traffic stop where that cop had the black guy on the ground and was POUNDING on his head with his fist. Just POUNDING! Okay, ONE strike like that seemed too much. Hell, he was on the ground already! He was immobilized already. WTF? THAT looked thuggish, and THAT cop was white. I can still remember the images of the cops - all of them white - who beat up Rodney King. Sure looked like THUGS to me! Especially when it's a whole bunch of them pouncing on ONE guy. You guys never grew up out of the playground bully stage? Dear God!
The word "thug" does not carry the racial connotation to me. I've seen too much thuggery from whites, especially white cops. HELL, anybody remember that so-called "Brooks Brothers Riot" outside the office in Florida where some hapless election workers were trying to count the votes during Selection 2000? They were out there, ALL white people including a woman or two, pounding on the glass doors, yelling, menacing, acting threatening - CLEARLY attempting to terrorize those inside and get them to stop counting the votes (which is an outrage all by itself). THUGS! THUGS ALL!!! TOTAL DAMN SHITBAG THUGS. And they were ALL OF THEM white as the - um - proverbial sheet.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)this is 2015 - and "thug" has become much narrower in its use as a descriptor as well as a noun used primarily for describing black men of all ages and economic backgrounds, and brown men who are all lumped into the "gang" affiliation stereotype. period.
us older people who were around in the 40's, 50's, 60's, and 70's can do well to recognize that labels for groups of people change according to many social and economic, and racial bigotry influences.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Response to bravenak (Original post)
Post removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Really tho. Whatever you know jack about my insensitivities. Many many black people agree with me. Even congressmen and football players. Funny how white people like to be the ones doing all the deciding about whether words are racially charged. It is a dog whistle and everyone can hear it. Some, like you, refuse it admit what it is. Use the word. Just remember when you use it, We, black folks, hear Nigge*. And go ask people in AA who you trust more than me before you dig your heels in. Ask. See what they say. Then think about it. You'll see that more agree with me than with you. You are an outlier.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)that vandals, thieves, arsonists, and looters that hold a city hostage,... are thugs ?
The president agrees they are criminals and thugs, so does the mayor of Baltimore.
my president and Baltimore mayor trump your congressmen and football player, thug is an acceptable term for criminals.
Now about your use of the term "pale face",... I'm not sure if you are racist, or just ignorant of what "racist" means ?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Not if they tell you that you should do it without fearing being thought of as a racist.
Just because black people say things to and about each other, does not mean that the recipients of white supremacy need to come in a get their jollies name calling underprivileged black youth that they do jack shit to help.
If you think it's okay to do what black people do, call then nigg*$. We do it. Go ahead. If Calling black kids names makes you feel all warm and toasty inside, shoot. Handle that. I just told yiu what you look like doing it. Like a relic from an anti integration advertisment.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)black people calling each other nigg*r ? ........ Ignorant, stupid, foolish, counterproductive, ................. but be honest,........ more often than not it's used as comedy, or in a comedic context by black people to describe another black person, and/or another black person's behavior.
I guess ignorance is the answer, ......you don't seem to understand that "thug" is a common term for a criminal, but "pale face" is racist.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Pale faced is descriptive of color or lack thereof.
Response to bravenak (Reply #72)
Post removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts) NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)I find your opinions fascinating. How you can justify being racist, because you are black is really quite interesting to me.
You think using "pale face" is an acceptable term for white people, because it "is a description of color or lack there of" ?
I can only imagine how full you would load your pants, if some one ever used the word "darkie" as a description skin color.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
I've never once seen you be right!
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)Lets hear some of that racist wisdom you have. you won't call me "pale face" because you know I'm right, and it's racist.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If you resemble the op, that's your problem. My advise therein was to work on that. Kay? It's up to you to fix you.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)I have taken a new approach, I dont respond to them anymore
Response to bravenak (Reply #111)
Post removed
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Her credentials on race are impeccable. You're digging yourself a hole you're not likely to crawl out of.
I love it! 
heaven05
(18,124 posts)have you used the term "darkie" in any of your daily conversations? Just asking. And that bit about bitter, you don't know what bitter is. And that bit about drunk racist, well...selfie?
marym625
(17,997 posts)Good one!
heaven05
(18,124 posts) marym625
(17,997 posts)You are always spot on! I don't think we have ever disagreed. Hence you always being right
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)"Yesterday in the comment section, there was some consternation over the word paleface. There were claims of being hurt and offended at the label. Paleface is a descriptor; it is not now, or ever will be a slur. If an Indigenous Person chooses to use the term, it is done in reaction to a history of racism, and does not come from a place of purposeful oppression. Even if said Indigenous person were attempting to debase a White person, the fact of the matter is, that there are no words or phrases, that carries the same sort of impact of any slur a White person could call an Indigenous person.
Part of the reason that these words have so much impact, is because they come from a place of power. Historically speaking, people of colour have not had the ability to wield any form of power over Whiteness. No Black person ever tied a White person to a whipping pole and scourged their body, while calling them a honky. Until recently, no person of colour could even address a White person with anything but deference, because of the dissonance in worth and value, and therefore; to suggest that worlds like honky, paleface or cracker have any significant meaning is ridiculous."
Yesterday in the comment section, there was some consternation over the word paleface. There were claims of being hurt and offended at the label. Paleface is a descriptor; it is not now, or ever will be a slur. If an Indigenous Person chooses to use the term, it is done in reaction to a history of racism, and does not come from a place of purposeful oppression. Even if said Indigenous person were attempting to debase a White person, the fact of the matter is, that there are no words or phrases, that carries the same sort of impact of any slur a White person could call an Indigenous person.
http://www.womanist-musings.com/2011/04/lets-talk-about-supposed-slurs-cracker.html
Read the entire article, nm..birder, it really puts the whole thing in clear perspective.
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)turned it into just another slur to describe young black men. So I, personally, bristle if I hear it, regardless of which side says it.
When I hear it used in certain situations like Ferguson now Baltimore, I know it's just another dog whistle.
That is really disingenuous nonsense. You are clearly using that term as an insult and to deflect valid criticism that there are plenty of people who disagree with your pronouncement.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You sure you wanna have another go?
Good one!
Boy, I get all the live ones!
sheshe2
(83,730 posts)Excellent OP, sadly it needed to be said. Thanks for holding up the mirror, bravenak.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
Love ya!!
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)"Yesterday in the comment section, there was some consternation over the word paleface. There were claims of being hurt and offended at the label. Paleface is a descriptor; it is not now, or ever will be a slur. If an Indigenous Person chooses to use the term, it is done in reaction to a history of racism, and does not come from a place of purposeful oppression. Even if said Indigenous person were attempting to debase a White person, the fact of the matter is, that there are no words or phrases, that carries the same sort of impact of any slur a White person could call an Indigenous person.
Part of the reason that these words have so much impact, is because they come from a place of power. Historically speaking, people of colour have not had the ability to wield any form of power over Whiteness. No Black person ever tied a White person to a whipping pole and scourged their body, while calling them a honky. Until recently, no person of colour could even address a White person with anything but deference, because of the dissonance in worth and value, and therefore; to suggest that worlds like honky, paleface or cracker have any significant meaning is ridiculous."
Yesterday in the comment section, there was some consternation over the word paleface. There were claims of being hurt and offended at the label. Paleface is a descriptor; it is not now, or ever will be a slur. If an Indigenous Person chooses to use the term, it is done in reaction to a history of racism, and does not come from a place of purposeful oppression. Even if said Indigenous person were attempting to debase a White person, the fact of the matter is, that there are no words or phrases, that carries the same sort of impact of any slur a White person could call an Indigenous person.
http://www.womanist-musings.com/2011/04/lets-talk-about-supposed-slurs-cracker.html
Read the entire article, wow, it really puts the whole issue in clear perspective
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Good article, thanks for adding to a good thread.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)did not finish but it was getting interesting and bookmarked for later reading when I'm done with making my garlic soup.
melman
(7,681 posts)Everybody knows it. But you won't win an argument about it because that's just how it goes here.
alp227
(32,015 posts)I wouldn't fully call "thug" a racist term but can see where it can be used to appeal to bigots, in the same sense when Reagan talked about "states' rights" in Mississippi (specifically in the town of Philadelphia 16 years after the civil rights activists' murders). The Lee Atwater "N-word N-word N-word" soundbite explains how.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I only use thug on the powerful. They are thugs.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I shouldn't be surprised, given the shit I've seen (and i've seen some shit, man 
) but it keeps happening
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The only black people they can call thugs without me saying shit is these guys:
https://m.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)geez.....
what a joke(r) So when the Native american allegedly called whites pale face, they were being racist. Is that right?
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Just because you could probably get Ben Carson to agree with you does not mean there is widespread black support for your use of the word thug to describe black people.
I am pretty sure Obama does not use the word thug to describe black people, if you want to claim he does then provide a link.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)ignorant, violent, criminals.
THUG, has no racial context.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Obama, not yet, and I am very disappointed. Maybe he's out of touch. But that doesn't mean you should perpetuate his mistake. Why can't you use another word that doesn't have racial implications which the word now most definitely does. It's code for white racists to use on television. It was used for Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin specifically. It's a favorite of Fox News. Why on earth would you want to parrot them?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and this is regardless of party. The last people to get the memo, as it were, are politicians. This is doubly so during crisis. And the higher they are in the food chain, the less likely they are to get the memo.
This neologism, thug= nigger, yes I will use the full term, is about two years old or so. It started with the Trayvon Martin murder, and our lovely folks at FOX and other places using the tern instead of nigger, to describe Trayvon. Why? They knew they could not get away with the use of nigger.
Walking the streets and talking with people who have to live with those realities every day... they are very smart, and they quickly understood the replacement. You know why? Because AA males, in particular, the young AA males, have appropriated the term nigger almost as a term of pride. It started with Public Enemy and a few other rappers back in the 1980s. So when you hear African Americans calling each nigger, it is not a racist term, It's taken a generation, likely a little more, for the term to be appropriated as a matter of pride, and it is not unlike the use of the world Negro in speeches and other writings, starting with people like Frederick Douglas.
Hell, rap music is highly coded, and so is everyday language.
Politicians being tough on crime, and using that language that most whites will nod and go ok, it's Tuesday and the sun does indeed rise in the East. Why I heard that and went. whatever.
Now where did I place my rap? I feel like some Public Enemy right about now. After all, after doing a lot of research I have a whole new appreciation for it and the use of language my neighbors might find ahem, problematic.
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)criminal behavior since the 50's. It's not "code",.... it is truth, criminals are "THUGS". Just because rap artists want to use the word to describe criminal behavior doesn't mean it's racist for a white person to use it to describe criminals.
Curious what your opinion of the OP calling me "pale face" as a description of "color or lack thereof" is ?
I am pretty damn pale until summertime, what's your journalistic declaration ?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Sometimes rapidly.
As to pale face, since Hollywood used it for decades in cowboy and Indians movies, I haven't seen it evolve out of that
calimary
(81,209 posts)Using it to refer to the cops and this maddening trend of ridiculous, obscene overkill. Their behavior that I have seen in these videos - certainly qualifies them to be called thugs. If it's used to refer to the police as well, then maybe that might blunt the immediate attempt to focus its reference directly toward African American males. Call it what it is. These police "officers" are THUGS. I think they've earned that description, openly and on the record. Theirs is very clearly thuggish behavior - from what we've seen.
Some officer driving a police wagon and deliberately slamming on the brakes or taking curves or turns recklessly, so the person in custody in the back, who's also restrained, cuffed, ankle-shackled, CANNOT brace themselves OR grab for something to steady themselves in a wild ride, especially if it's deliberate and extreme - IS BEING A THUG.
I think we have to take back that word, too. The way we've had to start taking back the word "Liberal." The way we've had to start taking back the word "Feminist." Let's be accurate. A thug is an overzealous white cop, too - as the videos prove.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)in a not so nice way. So at this point...
As to liberal, call it a sneaky but I suspect the world is about to gain some positive purchase.
heaven05
(18,124 posts) NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)and hasnt since.
THe mayor will learn too, people in position of power are often very influenced by the racist institution that runs everything.
Oktober
(1,488 posts)President Obama doesn't regret using the term "thug" in describing the violent rioters in Baltimore this week, spokesman Josh Earnest said Wednesday.
"Whether it's arson or, you know, the looting of a liquor store ... those were thuggish acts," Earnest said.
In discussing the riots Tuesday, Obama assailed the "criminals and thugs who tore up the place," and described them as a distraction from the real issues of police brutality.
Some critics ascribe racial connotations to the word "thug" -- Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake walked back the term earlier this week -- but Obama doesn't agree, officials said.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2015/04/29/obama-white-house-baltimore-stephanie-rawlings-blake/26585143/
marym625
(17,997 posts)I thought he used it yesterday. I could be mistaken. I was shocked he used it a all.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Sigh. People get so angry.
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)"In your over sensitive head" - then follow it up with your statement. Better yet - put it in your sig line with a link to the post you are quoting.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)
See that must have been Mr. Gray's issue. He was just too damn sensitive. Some fool is on here pushing that he 'could have hurt himself' and we shouldn't rule it out I just about peed my pants trying not to laugh at him directly in my post. I didn't want to be mean or cruel or anything - I just. I thought he was funny! And he takes himself so seriously.
What's a girl to do brave?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Like, why twist yourself into a pretzel to pretend he severed his own spine?
My husband says, that he was turning into a demon and used his super magic black demon strength to transform. During the process something went wrong and he stopped mid demon transformation thereby severing his own spine. Like a black incredible hulk. I told him it's about as good a theory as we'll get. If the police use this we're suing for copyright infringment.
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)Print it out and drop it in the mail before they find it!
My husband says - Here we go again with their 
'Magic Negro' nonsense!
You can't cure that kind of crazy girl!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I better post it somewhere public so I can get my money! The crazy never stops, yo!
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I mean don't get me wrong, not at Mr. grays excruciating execution, but what your husband said.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He promises me that that will be the story.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)privilege male.
FUcking HYSTERICAL
IF ONLY I could get my wish, my DREAM
REVERSE everything the past 200 yrs, put white people on the losing end of everything, then murder them for no reason and then ANNOUNCE THAT THEY KILLED THEMSELVES
anybody got any marshmallows?
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)No. Please?
Hee hee
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Such unmanageable burdens!!
heaven05
(18,124 posts)agree with you...100%...and the outlier? What can I say....I won't say anything, I'll just..
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)That said, I also noticed that a lot of people from our side of the aisle began using the word a lot to refer to Teabaggers. I assumed they did so wanting to cut off their attempt to stop "thug" from becoming the new "nigg**". Which could be a worthy thing. But I didn't like the feel of it.
However, judging by some of the responses to this thread, my assumption was wrong as apparently there are DUers using the term who completely failed to notice** that thug became re-popularized the past few years by RWers when talking about "urban youth".
For the record, "thug" has probably always technically been a racist term since it was a reference to a group in India. Interestingly, that would mean it referred to a group of Caucasians (albeit, dark skinned). But that particular meaning to the word has faded with time.
[font size=1]
**Disclaimer: "failed to notice" does not apply to NM_Birder who has been a blatantly racist fuck every time he isn't writing about birding. One of the embarassements to DU on that subject. I don't understand how this one slides by as I don't think he is one of the gungeoneers who hold DU hostage.
Yeah, jury. I said it. Search his posts and hide me if you feel he is not guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
[/font]
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Hey. Your disclaimer is awesome.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)
rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)most people see it and have for quite some time
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)You should take some time to think about why you have such a nasty, knee-jerk reaction. I'll give you a hint: it begins with the letter R.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and ask... questions, and chiefly LISTEN.
This I hear regularly from PoC
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)for people who loot, burn, and riot?
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)There is a need to use that word to describe black people for the SAME reason some have a need to use the "N" word, how we KNOW this is if they didnt have THAT need, they would say, "OK, you say so, I cant argue with you"
You know what I mean, it would NEVER occur to me to tell a woman that she is too sensitive when I call her the B word...etc
But I truly believe the answer is to ignore them, completely, here and everywhere.
Anyone who believes what bigots and racists and misogynists obviously believe is someone I have no interest in dealing with, in life, for any reason, at all.
If forced to for some reason, grin and bear it, otherwise, we all must begin to ignore them and for those who deserve it, figure out a way to SHAME them while ignoring them.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think it should be my job to make sure that they don't feel so comfortable using dog whistles.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts) 
frylock
(34,825 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)And he will change his mind when he see's racists using him for cover.
frylock
(34,825 posts)peace
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)Are one of the last to know what is PC and what is not. Hell, the RWNJs don't even know until some jackarses like Hannity or Limbaugh tells them.
Besides, when is the last time POTUS has been down in the trenches? I'm thinking probably back in his political activist days.
frylock
(34,825 posts)these people live in a bubble.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Thieves, arsonists, and rioters.
treestar
(82,383 posts)that those terms have become equivalent to the N word.
A thug was:
Dictionary
thug
noun \ˈthəg\
: a violent criminal
Full Definition of THUG
: a brutal ruffian or assassin : gangster, tough
But for the N word:
nigger
noun nig·ger \ˈni-gər\
Definition of NIGGER
1
usually offensive; see usage paragraph below : a black person
2
usually offensive; see usage paragraph below : a member of any dark-skinned race
A
: a member of a socially disadvantaged class of persons <it's time for somebody to lead all of America's niggers … all the people who feel left out of the political process — Ron Dellums>
See nigger defined for English-language learners
Usage Discussion of NIGGER
Nigger in senses 1 and 2 can be found in the works of such writers of the past as Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, but it now ranks as perhaps the most offensive and inflammatory racial slur in English. Its use by and among blacks is not always intended or taken as offensive, but, except in sense 3, it is otherwise a word expressive of racial hatred and bigotry.
So the dictionary does see a difference. Word definitions are settled on over time by society. But now we're being told someone else gets to make the definitions and inform us we are being offensive in using a word the dictionary does not place in that category (as you see, it does identify when a word is offensive). In addition, they are not listed as synonyms. So I think it a bit unfair to condemn people for using a word as the dictionary defines it. That's pretty much society's agreement on a word.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Dictionaries do not address cultural and societal changes immediately. There has very clearly been a shift in the connotations of the word thug. Go watch Fox News for a bit, and see just what usage you're defending here. I'd like to think you might change your mind, but this forum has a nasty habit of disappointing me.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Thus I am not defending anything there.
As usual, I get accused of that when questioning something. Why are you so angry that the dictionary is consulted for the meanings of words?
Really the dictionary can be dismissed like that? What about the people who don't watch Fox News? Or people who don't know? Do you expect the dictionary to eventually reflect this?
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)For the people who don't know, then fine. I have nothing against them, as long as they learn.
But when people tell you, plainly, over and over again, and you continue your ignorance?
It's no longer excusable.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Really? I can't discuss this word in the English language? How do I "continue" my ignorance? I have been informed some people consider it just like the N word. Thus I will use it only for white people in the future. I don't want to hurt people's feelings.
But it is a bit bossy to say no one can discuss it once "informed." In fact I have only been informed by a few people at DU so far, so out in the real world I might not have trouble for using it to describe anyone at all. It's not a word I use. I'm just fascinated by this attempt to create a bad word out of a previously neutral word. You're practically wagging your finger in my face. I've told you and that's it. No discussion.
Excuse me while I go find Fox News so I can find out more about this fascinating word-transition.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Just be careful who you use it sround. While you are looking up dictionary definitions, look this one up: neologism.
TekGryphon
(430 posts)Drunken revelers, rowdy, mischief-makers, or even idiots.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Damn this group is quick.
More Coffee ... Must Have More Coffee!
treestar
(82,383 posts)This is why I am not sure.
No one has informed Merriam Webster
Full Definition of THUG
: a brutal ruffian or assassin : gangster, tough
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thug
Nay
(12,051 posts)similar gangs. Members of motorcycle gangs also are often referred to as "thugs," although that has lessened as more boomer men ride around on Harleys and such. It is used also in a generic way to refer to any uncultured and vaguely threatening large man who is conceivably linked to criminal activity.
However, this does not preclude the use of the word in a racist manner. I have certainly seen it as a substitute for "nigger" both in print and out loud, although this use is relatively new. It's a crossover word right now (like "gay" was) and will soon mean "nigger" exclusively, in the same way that "gay" is no longer used to mean "cheerful" and now means "homosexual."
That's my take on it as a well-read old fart.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Language changes and is malleable. What it meant a while ago is not what it necessarily means now.
People need to remember that we don't live in a vacuum.
treestar
(82,383 posts)but then at least they are censoring themselves from using the N word.
Problem is how can we tell? They might use it to refer to the mafia or motorcycle gangs in their usage.
Thus it seems there is an effort to protect black people from ever being called anything bad, even if some individuals do actually do bad things.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Looters, rioters, arsonists. Those are good and accurate words. They mean "bad" things, so you should be satisfied. In the meantime, we're asking that people stop using racially tinged language (more than just tinged--more like soaked--but whatever).
It doesn't matter--it's the intent behind the word, not the word itself that matters.
treestar
(82,383 posts)As for the intent, a white person innocent of this who has not read this thread and been informed might indeed only intend to label the criminality.
Full Definition of THUG
: a violent criminal
: a brutal ruffian or assassin : gangster, tough
— thug·gery \ˈthə-g(ə
rē\ noun
— thug·gish \ˈthə-gish\ adjective
It's simply an intent to declare a word off limits. What good it does, I don't know. Why is it OK to call them criminals? Thug is a synonym, so calling them criminals is like calling them thugs which is calling them the N word. I don't see why a campaign against a word is needed. The dictionary sees nothing racial in the word. White people can be thugs. They can't be the N word. Though I am mistaken as there was that basketball player a while back who used it on his white opponent.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)It's clear you're going to keep using it, no matter how many PoC and others tell you that there is something racial in the word. Have fun with that.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I am discussing the word. You're trying to shut down all discussion. You're right and that's it. You did not respond to what I posted there at all. Just backing up on your bossy assertion that it's a done deal in all of English speaking society.
Usually definitions of words bubble up from the users of the language, they are not announced by anyone, not even leaders.
And you better fire off a letter to President Obama, who not only used it but defended his use of it.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Is not real. As to politicians using terms they should not, the sun sets in the west and today is Wendesday. So what the hell is new?
But if you want to explore why people (of color ) at times give up with the whole voting thing, this thread is actually part of the exhibits. You are as tone deaf to their concerns, and unwilling to listen, as politicians.
TM99
(8,352 posts)you really don't seem to understand.
A neologism is a 'newly coined word'. Examples would include new words like Obamacare, Cyberspace, or grok. A neologism is NOT the reworking of an already established word.
The word thug is NOT a newly coined word. It is an ancient term that has meant and still means what it has always meant - a person who is doing some sort of criminally violent behavior - raping, pillaging, plundering, assassinations, highway robbers, mafia hitmen, etc.
This is just another stupid example of political correctness run amok. And before you accuse me of being insensitive to people of color, I am bi-racial.
Brow beating political allies because you don't like the way some people use a word does ZERO to advance civil rights in this country.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)for an old word
Thanks for playing.
Also I see you ignored why people give up with the system.
Have a good one.
And I expected the attack, I was just wondering why it was taking so long. Oh and by the way, free clue, I am not black. I just got to the conclusion a while ago that I will not question them when they call something racist. I have zero moral authority to do that.
TM99
(8,352 posts)Thug = n***** is not a neologism. It has not 'evolved' into that usage exclusively.
I don't care if you are black or white. I don't care if one emphatic black person says it means this now. I am a POC, and I disagree. So which ones do you believe?
That's why there are objective standards for the usage of words, terms, etc.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)because language never ever evolves
http://www.nolandalla.com/thug-nigger-richard-sherman/
http://time.com/2369/richard-sherman-thug-n-word/
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/21/1338217/-The-thuggification-of-young-black-victims-of-white-violence-Is-thug-the-new-nigger
https://storify.com/anon1234/is-thug-the-new-n-gger
Even in urban dictionary, partially
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Thug+Nigger
That is just from the top of google search
TM99
(8,352 posts)and you know that.
Urban dictionary and Dailykos are hardly reputable linguistic sources, and you know that as well.
I also disagree with Sherman as we have used and continue to use the term thug to describe criminal behavior irrespective of race.
We aren't going to convince each other so I won't argue further.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and I will let you be
Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #430)
Petrushka This message was self-deleted by its author.
Petrushka
(3,709 posts)On its own, and regardless of who uses it, the word "thug" does not qualify as a neologism or newly coined word. However: Based on the last two words found in that urban dictionary URL you posted, it's possible to create at least two new words, namely: _______ and _______.
Note: On second thought, I deleted those two neologisms. In any case, thank you for the links.
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)Yes it is clear.
Thanks F4lconF16.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)unless the Looting, Burning and Rioting occurs after a sporting event, or on Halloween, than we call them "overly enthusiastic fans" or "misguided college students".
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)...but I suspect that poster wasn't really seeking an alternative.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)to use the other word.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)That undoubtedly rankles you, but you don't get to control my vocabulary.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)with nationwide.
Basically, a group of white people who are unwilling to give up control.
Many white people, like myself, are willing to share and be reasonable, but many are not.
When I say share I obviously mean that up until now white people control and own almost everything.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I can't tell you the number of times, good and reasonable (white) folks have been good and reasonable ... until I (or another Black person) really pissed them off ... that "word" followed, shortly thereafter.
I don't think "that word" is too foreign to his/her vocabulary
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Just like sexists who cannot stand the idea of losing their male dominance, so do the racists. Couldn't have actual equality or anything--we need to keep oppressing black people in every way, or the whole thing will start to slip.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)to know why cant the states continue to discriminate until they are comfortable with gay people
I mean fuck, pretty soon some of us are gonna stop caring what you bigot, racist assholes think about anything and we are going to act, en masse, accordingly
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)An act en masse might actually change some of this. It's the road we're headed down right now. We need to start over in this country.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)don't get to control the perceptions....
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)Thug is the new dogwhistle term -- brings 'em running.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I think thugs is also appropriate, though.
Worthless, waste of air, dregs of society. Any number of terms work.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Worthless, waste of air, dregs of society. Any number of terms work.
Are you saving it for anything special?
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)That was rhetorical.
Your attitudes and beliefs around this particular matter are abundantly clear.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I tried to make myself clear.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)You are dehumanizing them. These are all real people who, for the vast majority of them, have been socially and economically oppressed to the
Yuck. Here's something from a post of mine:
Respect in this case does not imply that we respect another’s actions; instead, it means that we view them as something more than an inanimate object. I treat a dog differently than I would a rock. I do so because I firmly believe that the dog, unlike the rock, experiences the world. It is a fellow traveler in this temporary world of life; something that lives, breathes, understands.
Those living beings are deserving of my respect because they have just as much inherent value in the universe as I do. I am but a different type of being. As an atheist, I also see no evidence for a life other than the one I am lucky enough to have. Life is the most incredibly precious thing that exists, for me. We are here, and we are gone, and we have but a quick moment to experience the beauty of the world around us. If I deny the respect I hold for life to another living being, I diminish my own.
The Buddhist perspective is that everyone exists with some amount of basic goodness. That is not an easy view to reconcile with the horrifying things that happen in this world. But I take that perspective anyways, because I think to do otherwise denies my own humanity. If I cannot see the inherent good in psychopaths and murderers, I cannot respect them. If I do not respect them, I do not respect the value of my own life. I see those people as sick; there is no way a sane, healthy mind exists within them. With luck, future medical advances may help us to help them. But for now, I must see their humanity in order to avoid denying my own.
This is why I am so hurt by the denials of humanity that were posted here and continue to be posted here. I see people denying my own humanity when they advocate for what amounts to the torture of a living being. I see denials of my own humanity in our society’s actions. I am pained that that is being taken from me.
I value all of humanity, not just the ones I like personally.
NOLALady
(4,003 posts)"The Unheard".
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Looters. Arsonists. Rioters.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)It really became a code word after George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin, and Zimmerman's supporters leaned heavily on the term "thug." They used it so often, in fact, it became permanently welded to the image of a young black man, walking around the neighborhood, looking for trouble. Yes, the people who rely on "thug" to evoke that image will give us the old "Who, me?" argument. "Black people say it, too." "Look it up in the dictionary." And so on. But you are right on the money. It has quickly become a code word, and we should avoid it. Using it just feeds into the hate machine.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He said it, so it's cool. Whenever someone says 'look the word up in Websters' I know they are fulla shit.
malaise
(268,913 posts)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)countryjake
(8,554 posts)My favorite term for a mean nasty right-wingnut has long been Rethug, but once the media (and much of the nation) viciously slurred one of my favorite SeaHawks after we'd won the NFC Championship, I decided it was time to shelve all use of that word, myself. When a term becomes a wink-wink code for racists to comfortably decry a person as less than human, it's time to put it down, not propagate it.
Richard Sherman: ‘Thug’ Is ‘Accepted Way Of Calling Somebody The N-Word’ by Travis Waldron ~ Jan 22, 2014
http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/01/22/3194121/richard-sherman-thug-acceptable-version-word/
Richard Sherman And The Plight Of The Conquering Negro by Greg Howard ~ 1/20/14
http://deadspin.com/richard-sherman-and-the-plight-of-the-conquering-negro-1505060117
Richard Sherman's Best Behavior by Ta-Nehisi Coates ~ Jan 20, 2014
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/01/richard-shermans-best-behavior/283198/
C_U_L8R
(44,997 posts)All have the same basic negative intent
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)a multi-millionaire, Honors graduate of Stanford, was repeatedly referred to as a thug?
Say ... "what do you call an educated negro with a B.A. or an M.A., with a B.S., or a PhD?"
bravenak
(34,648 posts)My future husband (Richard Sherman) was labled that horrible name. For shame. Such an intelligent, and handsome and fine as wine man like that called a thug. I like him for his beautiful mind. I bet he could talk to me for hours. Sigh. About all manner of things.
SalviaBlue
(2,915 posts)about Richard Sherman and the word thug.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
Smart!!!
SalviaBlue
(2,915 posts)and we are
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)took no shit from anyone and gave as good as he got. (See his appearance before HUAC or the analogous Senate Committee for a good example of what I'm talking about.)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)And lo and behold, in your thread, people fighting tooth and nail to continue using their pet "terms."
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I knew they'd come to my party. Tell them that a word is not awesome to use, and they want to use it more. Weird. Like teenagers.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)I never do that, but that poster has been all over threads wanting to be as racist as possible. It's utter bullshit.
"Thug" is a word that came into popularity when racist Republicans realized they could use it on television and not get in trouble for it. And DUers want to join them? Fuck that. You are right for calling them out. Now at least they can't say they didn't know.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)And you are right. At least they cannot say they were never informed. If they had watched Fox News in the last few day, they'd know for sure that it's racist, cause they use it constantly. Only on blacks, not the Keene Pumkin Fest "celebrants' who burned shit up.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)It's code for "scary black male". It is not used in any other context except I see it used for cops, which there it is used appropriately. Not to mention it's twisting Thug Life around.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Like cops, and bankers, and politicians... You know, people who harm millions with the stroke of a pen, or use state authority to murder? I wish people would do like me.
I wanted to scream listening to them calling those young men thugs to satisfy their heed to feel somehow 'better than'. I figure it's time to stop letting white supremacy feel like a comforting blanket of lies. It should feel like a rough scratchy wool blanket, or one woven from pine needles.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)That should be its own OP. People need to read that and think about it.
Being from a place where I don't encounter daily racism (because basically white people are the minority), I'm always shocked to find how steeped in it some people are--even people who think they aren't. It must be their upbringing that it is so much a part of their makeup and daily lives. But if you want to call yourself any kind of a liberal, you need to open your mind and listen; you need to evolve like a motherfucker on a daily basis. Because I have to say the pushback and digging in of heels for asking someone to stop using a racist word is shocking/not shocking. Is their vocabulary that damn small? Add in a new word for fuck's sake.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I would love to use it on though. And you will see pants on fire....
The ASE fraternity racist &)@/:$&@. To me their song was the pure definition of thugs, white privileged thugs. But understanding how the language has evolved...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)One day they'll be wall street thugs, tho. Then...
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Same point made on Monday here in San Diego.
And lawyers, doctors, mayors, senators and congressmen. But a kid from the hood looks at the cop wrong... They end up dead, or with charges.
And then some of the posters wonder why PoC don't vote many a times. This is but one of multiple reasons.
Texasgal
(17,042 posts)That's what they use for distrupters in the UK.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)with in that case, class undertones, with some race undertones. It has a long history going back to the Irish -British conflict., but more proximally, it is used disparangily against working class folk.
Texasgal
(17,042 posts)Modern usage[edit]
Later, as the meaning of the word shifted slightly, none of the possible alternatives had precisely the same undertones of a person, usually young, who belongs to an informal group and commits acts of vandalism or criminal damage, starts fights, and who causes disturbances but is not a thief.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooliganism
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but it is understood to be part of class..
It is also related to gang activities these days. From websters
hooligan
noun hoo·li·gan \ˈhü-li-gən\
: a usually young man who does noisy and violent things as part of a group or gang
And from Cambridge
hooligan
noun [C] UK US /ˈhuː.lɪ.ɡən/
› a violent person who fights or causes damage in public places:
Hooligans had sprayed paint all over the car.
hooliganism
noun UK US /-ɪ.zəm/
›
football/soccer hooliganism
It is tied to soccer, and in soccer games hooligan gangs are well known to be working class
Although football hooliganism only rose to widespread public attention in the 1960s, it had been with the sport since its earliest development. In the late 19th Century, concerns were frequently voiced about groups of "roughs" causing trouble at matches by attacking not only opposing supporters, but also players and referees. Many sociologists point to football's origins in working class Britain as a factor distinguishing it from the majority of sports popular today, and contributing to its links with aggressive and disorderly behaviour.
http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/football-hooliganism
The problem is not limited to the UK, but it has clear roots, and in the UK clear meaning. Of course importing the term to the US and using it against gang members who are rioting, or sport fans would be proximately correct, but. We all need to be aware of origins.
Response to bravenak (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Response to bravenak (Reply #37)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)A rose that grew on a campus covered in rosebushes.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I went to Service High in Anchorage ak and Hamilton Hs in Los Angeles. If you look at Service, you'll see it's the 'rich' school. It took till I was 12 for us to steadily rise from shit and rats and roaches and riots. My mom married white, and there it is. He took opportunity just like I did.
Snow Leopard
(348 posts)When it comes to the word thug.
Thug is the new nigge*.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)on who gets hit by them first.
frylock
(34,825 posts)well stated.
tridim
(45,358 posts)All the semi-racist, Faux Newz viewers in my life who never used the N-word (at least that I know of) now use the word "thugs" all the time. Faux implies it is okay, every day, and they comply.
Obviously it's their new code-word, they all think it is very clever.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I cannot wait until Fox News isn't anymore.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)A thug is a thug. A bully, crook, vandal.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Do with it what you will. Etymology bro. Words change meanings over time. This is a dog whistle word like 'welfare queens'. Welfare queens does not explicitly say that it means black women, but it does. It's a way to get away with racism by covering up the intent by using couched language. If you use it, I read nigge*.
951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)Snow Leopard
(348 posts)I've used it on other races at about 97% in my estimation, and has nothing to do with colour, just actions.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's the language of the mighty against the down trodden.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)I'm stealing it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts) frylock
(34,825 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Liberal Establishment," everyone who paid attention knew they were talking about Jews negatively, but no one could ever say anything about it in public.
Here's the key question: when white youth go crazy and burn and loot their communities following various sporting match outcomes, does the media call them 'thugs'? If not, then 'thug' has a racist connotation, even though its denotation may not have any explicit racial content.
The use of the term 'thug' exclusively for urban black males is outrageous and shameful. I cannot believe DUers are still defending its use. Really makes me wonder.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)and the usage for this word has changed. The OP is right.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)It's term meaning violent criminals of any type. I will use it whenever it applies.
People that burn down buildings, rob, and assault others are thugs. Cops who senselessly beat people or murder are thugs. Politicians who coerce others through violence or threats of violence are thugs. The term doesn't take on special meaning because you don't like certain groups having it applied to them, or think that they should be above reproach.
I guess now thug is doubleplus ungood.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Now you know how you look to people when you use it.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)Rational people don't assume racial subtext in every disparaging comment directed at violent assholes, regardless of where they land on the Sherwin Williams paintscale of acceptable criticism.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)The word has never been about color to me. It has to do with action; not color.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)I bow down to your..........
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)Star Member bravenak (11,659 posts)
10. Pissed off.
No need to find a label to put on them. They already have enough labels. They are sad, miserable, poor, black, overlooked, underfunded, labeled, despised, forgotten, beat down, abused, lied to, crapped on, jacked up against a wall, fatherless victims of the drug war, judged, fined, kicked...
Why do you feel the need to call those desperate souls names? Are their lives not harsh enough for you yet? Call them what you will, but at least you noticed them. Finally they got noticed.
bravenak
(34,648 posts) 
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)
I love him.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)I am sorry to see it being used so often here.
Kick and rec. This is racist language, no exceptions.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I figured it must be up to me to say something. Thanks.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)Some people protested peacefully and some did behave like thugs, burning and looting businesses.
Ironically, just like in Ferguson, the businesses destroyed were in their own community and some were owned by AA. What was the valid excuse for burning down a nursing home that had taken a Baptist Church years to complete? A church whose members were mostly AA, I might add. How about the CVS store? Will they want to rebuild knowing that they risk a similar incident in the future?
Look at the images on the link. Why burn down your own town?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3057819/Baltimore-police-Freddie-Gray-protestors-clash-violently-funeral.html
840high
(17,196 posts)Beacool
(30,247 posts)It never makes any bloody sense to burn down your own community. It's hard enough for poor neighborhoods to attract large corporate investors. So how smart is it to burn and loot a CVS store? It took years to rebuild the neighborhoods that were burned down during the riots in L.A. back in the 90s.
There's a difference between protesting against a social injustice and some people co-opting the protest to suit their personal agenda.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Try empathy and research about the area.
Many of us after the riots took stock of our lives in LA and realized that we can LEAVE. Shocking I know. We felt stuck. Too poor to afford to go, no jobs, shitty roach infested shops, mice in the grocery, old abandoned buildings, shitty schools, no parks, no recreaction centers, despised and followed as soon as we left our designated zones, even in the 90's it was hard to get whites to rent to you, so you were stuck. Minumum wage jobs, ramp up of the drug war. No money. Dads start selling crack to pay the bills in the roachy ass apartment. Dad goes to jail. Mom takes two jobs. Nobody to watch the kids. Kids get raped. Mom gets blamed. This is their life. If they are not goung through it all themselves, that is still all they see.
Why do we need to put more labels on those kids and call them names? Why dear god why? This is why I gave up on religion. Ain't no god that would allow this shit in the land of plenty and then blame those poor kids for being enraged. Nope. Ain't no god in America and there ain't no christians.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)On the other hand, some did behave criminally. How about teaching them that there's a better way, that destroying your own town is not the answer? How about encouraging them to stay in school? To attend college or a training program. How about showing them that there's a way out and it's usually through education? How about demonstrating to them that the loop of poverty can be broken by them, that they are not destined to remain in the same circumstances for their entire lives? How about giving them hope for a better life?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Looking at the poverty rate and the lead paint exposure rate of multiple times the national average, it looks like everybody expects them to overcome all those obstacles without any support. If those communities had been supported in the first damn place, there would be none of this bullshit right now.
Sent all the jobs away, put more cops in to keep them controlled and away from the good ares. O'malley had cops arresting folks for SITTING ON THEIR OWN STOOPS. Wtf? His administration ramped up the arrests, taking fathers from theur homes. Who is left there to teach these kids all the things you think they should be taught? Their single mothers working two jobs with five kids? Ain't no programs that way... I guess they better just figure out how to overcone all the obstacles otherwise they're just thugs and shit that white folks can lord over and judge? Think about that thing I said about empathy and research. Look into the lead paint and the broken windows policing and the poverty rate. Think about how welfare reform might harm families in places with NO jobs to do work force development and why drug dealing took up the slack that the end to cash aid left behind.
Then get at me after you look. Put yourself in their shoes.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Thanks for the reminder.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You know how it is.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)And for good reason. You seem to have touched a nerve here. Gotta love watching people defend their privileges, though.
Hopefully the nastiness in this thread doesn't touch your day too much. It's sunny up in AK right now, right? It was nice down here in the morning, but there was a big wall of grey coming...I should go check
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm used to the excuses. Kinda amusing if I just read through. The anger is surprising, but black lady telling them what to do and all.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)Why would it be illegal to sit in your own stoop. Crazy.......
What I have been trying to say is that one can't wait to be given anything. If the white PTB don't help a community, then people need to help themselves by organizing. There are so many ways to do so. For example, if someone needs childcare at night because they are working a second shift, how about moms bartering for the service? If kids are failing because they can't read at their grade level or they can't grasp mathematical concepts, how about someone who can tutor them? Communities need to be more involved with their neighbors. People do much better when there are others to help lift them up. Divided we fail, united we succeed.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The area is worse off than LA ever was. If they had the stuff you mention above, we would not be here. They have been underfunded and ignored for generations. That port was supposed to revitalize the sorrounding communities, but No jobs materialized. All the money gets spent on the business district and shifted away from the communities of color. They still gotta pay taxes tho. But they get no tutors and stuff. Most people in areas like that have nobody to look up to doing anything resembling financial success besides - drug dealers. Only white people they see are teachers and addicts. I was one of those kids. But I was able to oeave after the riots and live in a HOUSE. My extended family thought we were rich. They would strut around and talk about how my mama is VERY WEALTHY. She owns a 4 plex. To them, that is wealthy. See?
Beacool
(30,247 posts)I wasn't talking about money. I was talking about members of the community helping themselves, since the people in charge don't seem to want to help them. There have to be people who can tutor kids. Maybe a pastor? I have faith in kids. If someone can show them a better way I think that most of them would take it. It needs a whole new mindset. Don't see what you don't have, see what you want for yourself and device a way to get it. Kids need to be inspired. They need to be taken to museums, they need outdoor activities. Their bodies and minds need to be nourished. Who knows if among those kids there's not a scientist, doctor, lawyer, artist or any number of professions? Not everything is about money. Plenty of museums are free so are all libraries. What these kids need are adults joined for a common cause: helping them to become healthy and productive adults.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Their men are gone. They cannot just rebuild what has been broken forever. It is everyones problem. They got ignore and the money and resources funneled into white areas. It's as much their responsibily as it is the people who live there. They stole from black to give to white. Time to give it back and then some. Like, with interest.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)to read "Blaming the Victim," by William Ryan. You might come to understand that your "concern" reveals your own preconceptions, as well as an apparent tendency to speak of "them" as though each young person who found themselves in the midst of the events in Baltimore is a part of a homogeneous "group" (hmm... now what do we call this tendency again?).
I am reminded of the myth of "pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps." This myth is akin to the "American Dream" myth:
The concept of bootstrapping dates back to at least the 1890s, when Horatio Alger wrote novels about boys who worked hard and rose up the social ladder from poverty and is intertwined with that other mythical ideal, the American Dream. Today, however, according to a recent Pew Study on the American Dream, social mobility between the lowest levels of American society and the middle class is increasingly difficult, if not impossible. Specifically, the study found that while a large number of Americans (84 percent) have a higher family income than did their parents, those born at both the top and the bottom of the “income ladder” stay where they are from one generation to the next. What that means is that those who begin life wealthy pass that wealth, but those born at the bottom—in other words those who would typically be candidates for bootstrapping—are now more likely to stay there. This is particularly true for African Americans who are stuck at the bottom more than any other group and may even fall farther behind from one generation to the next.
I have shed many tears about our younglings who've been murdered by police officers who should NOT be allowed to wear that uniform. A day doesn't go by without my hearing of yet another young life tragically ended! I want to see those criminals face consequences for their murderous actions!!!
BTW, as a teacher, I have seen how "education" works in the US these days: our public schools are designed to produce factory fodder and service industry drones, not "well-educated" critical thinkers. Schools in urban or rural settings where the majority of students live in poverty are poorly equipped and seriously underfunded. I find it offensive that you glibly assert that "there's a way out and it's usually through education," because that is not the norm for our younglings. Good education is the purview of the wealthy, and that is unlikely to change any time soon...
tjl148
(185 posts)1. IMO good education is also the purview of the families who stress education.
2. So the government wants only drones and factory fodder?
chervilant
(8,267 posts)of public education found that family and friends were the two most important variables in predicting academic success (these results were subsequently perverted, but that's another subject for another time). Children whose families stress education can achieve a decent education, but the best education available is predominantly available to the children of the wealthiest among us.
It is a fallacy to assert that our "government" determines what our system of public education "produces." Corporate megalomaniacs have long held sway over education, just as they've held sway over our media, our politics, and our global economy--not the least because our economic behaviors have become the definition of who we are. Regimented, compliant workers are, perforce, the outcome of our system of public education. I encourage you to watch Sir Ken Robinson for more about how our system of public eduation du jour primarily spits out factory fodder and service industry drones.
I don't doubt what our public education produces. Coporate money is everywhere.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)If it's so offensive to think that education is a way to leave poverty behind, then what do you propose that these children and young men do to improve their lives? Even in poorly funded schools there are imaginative teachers who find ways to stir their students' interest and thirst for knowledge. We all have had good and bad teachers. The good teachers we remember through life. I still think fondly of my high school history teacher. She was imbued with passion and made us feel as if we were actually living history.
I don't accept that kids in poorly and underfunded schools are condemned to a life of poverty. That's a defeatist attitude. While politicians twiddle their thumbs, these kids' lives are passing them by. They can't wait for the perfect world where someone finally decides to give their schools the much needed funding that they deserve.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's like the n word. When we say it, it simply not cool, when you say it...
Go up to a group of black kids and call them thugs, bet your ass they've heard that before.
Go up to a group of white kids and call them thugs, they'll look at you like you grew another head. They rarely get called that. Our kids always get called that by white adults in nasty spit flying ways. Because it is a dog whistle.
Response to bravenak (Reply #80)
Post removed
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Try living in ours once in a while before you go slinging shit at minority members.
840high
(17,196 posts)giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)If you don't have a clue about how we as minorities live, it might be best for you to sit back & observe rather than just mudslinging at those of us who actually live through this shit.
frylock
(34,825 posts)how is that working out for you?
840high
(17,196 posts)working out good.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)not so much...
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6596778
Just goes to show you that it's possible to be disruptive and insulting in 8 words or less.
You just keep on working it!
bravenak
(34,648 posts) giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Always thrownin up bullshit & a well known cop defender to boot.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Constantly saying snarky mean stuff. A relic.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)everyday. It's getting to be more transparent than ever. I've decided to just start calling them out no more letting hide under their blankets.
840high
(17,196 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Especially when they are as consistsntly wrong as you.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)There's some insult that people always try to claim applies equally to men as well as women. I forget what it is (need coffeeee) but it's a pretty similar situation. Basically, they ignore any and all reality and pretend that we live in a vacuum, and that justifies their use of racist language.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)How come national riots occur only when some white guy kills a black man, but not much is done about the bloodbath of young AA men killing each other? I see politicians running to the podium when these kinds of incidents occur, but not much is said about the tragedy of what's going on in Chicago on a weekly basis. I see hypocrisy on the side of politicians. The most endangered person in the country is a young AA male.
Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that many white cops are targeting minorities and dealing with them a lot more harshly that they would if the perp had been white. That definitely has got to stop. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of only calling out white on black crime, while mostly ignoring the much more frequent black on black crime.
I don't have a solution, except that I think that young men need to realize that there's light at the end of the tunnel. That they can rise above their circumstances. There are plenty of examples out there for them to use as role models, the Obamas being one of them. Neither one came from a wealthy family, yet they used their intelligence to study and graduate from Ivy Leagues schools.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)they're back......why break a spine....why shoot someone eight times in the back, why kill a kid just going to the store for skittles and iced tea, in ones own neighborhood, his father lived there? These beg an answer, not having to answer about the blind rage at racism, ignorance and stupidity in amerikkka that is fueling these explosions. Please, again, I say...spare me.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)I know one of the fires was started when a police gas canister set some trash on fire. I thought it was the nursing home one. But I'm not certain.
derby378
(30,252 posts)There are thugs all over America and all over the world of all races, ethnicities, and genders. Even white ones. Sometimes, especially the white ones. Don't like it? Too bad. We're gonna call them what they really are without any of this PC BS.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Might want to save it for your kids. If I see it, I'll be there to call it out, over and over. I'm free all day.
derby378
(30,252 posts)Enjoy your stay on DU. The self-righteous usually don't last long on here. Let's just hope you don't add one to that number.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'll be around for a while yet, you might wanna getta refund on your crystal ball.
derby378
(30,252 posts)You've assumed that your own experience with the word is automatically the same experience that everyone else has. Why can't everyone be more like you? This is what we call hubris.
You're in no position to "inform" me of anything. Remember, Sarah Palin likes to play with the English language, too.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I did inform you and you will be better for it. You can thank me later.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Why don't you read through it and think about it for a while. This isn't just bravenek. This is people trying to educate that the word has become code. Why would you want to spread a Fox News term? Why??
derby378
(30,252 posts)...you're making the same mistake that the OP made.
Or are Obama and I both wrong on this matter?
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)YES!!!!!!!!!!
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)Who are you talking about here???
frylock
(34,825 posts)then that's your decision.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)outrageous and it really pains me to see anyone on DU defending its use. More like certain parts of the Democratic Party before 1965, if you ask me.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)It's very revealing. I've met quite a few of these people on gun threads. Just sayin.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Trayvon Martin by a few years and extends back to the 'Central Park Wilding' group of (5?) teens who were wrongly accused and convicted of assaulting and raping the Central Park Jogger. I haven't had time to chase it down, but I remember the racism that incident occasioned. When DNA evidence unequivocally exonerated all of the original group, the media really muted their announcement of it.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)It has been used for a while and I think it's a play on Thug Life. Now it's used all the time even by our president. It seems that racism is woven into the fabric of this country. Sigh.
salin
(48,955 posts)with tone and vitriol (like they are spitting out the word) *everytime* an unarmed black man is shot/killed. I noticed it first after the Trayvon Martin shooting. Suddenly: he was suspended from school he was no angel he was a *thug* then : he had incriminating pictures on facebook he was no angle he was a *thug*. Suddenly from that side - more sympathy for Zimmerman.
As if getting suspended from school = deserving to die.
Next the term was immediately employed in the descriptions of Michael Brown. He shoplifted ... he was no gentle giant he was a *thug* ...
Go read the rw websites in the days following any of the recent shootings by police - and the young black man will be described as "thugs" - especially on the comments sections. Repeatedly.
So this isn't PoC saying "don't use the term" - it is PoC saying - do you realize you are using the term that has come to be used as a euphemism in rw media for Ni***r
The point is to dehumanize and vilify. I have no idea how it came to be used this way - but it is ubiquitous on fox - it is all over the airwaves via Rush, Glenn, Hannity, etc.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)big time. The clueless don't last here. Selfie much?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)"Thug" comes from "thugee", a group of assassins in India.
Wiki says:
The Thugs travelled in groups across India for six hundred years.[1] Although the Thugs traced their origin to seven Muslim tribes, Hindus appear to have been associated with them at an early period. They were first mentioned in Ẓiyā-ud-Dīn Baranī's History of Fīrūz Shāh dated around 1356.[2] In the 1830s they were targeted for eradication by William Bentinck, Governor-General of India, and his chief captain William Henry Sleeman. The Thuggies were seemingly destroyed by this effort.[1][3]
The Thugs would join travelers and gain their confidence. This would allow them to then surprise and strangle their victims by pulling a handkerchief or noose tight around their necks. They would then rob their victims of valuables and bury their bodies. This led them to also be called Phansigar (English: using a noose), a term more commonly used in southern India.[4] The term Thuggee is derived from the Hindi word ठग, or ṭhag, which means "deceiver". Related words are the verb thugna, "to deceive", from Sanskrit स्थग sthaga "cunning, sly, fraudulent", from स्थगति sthagati "he conceals".[5] This term for a particular kind of murder and robbery of travellers is popular in South Asia and particularly in India.
When I hear the word these days, it's rare, but it smacks of conserve-speak.... something O'Reilly or Hannity might say. I haven't perceived the move to it just referring to blacks, but I don't doubt it's trending that way.... especially if you include dark skinned people like from the middle east or subcontinent.
Response to bravenak (Original post)
Post removed
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)as a dog-whistle for black people.
Go Vols
(5,902 posts)But in my small town when someone uses the word thug/dope thug they are referring to white dope addicts that do home invasions or break into houses and steal to support their addiction.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)The ones who object to efforts to eliminate micro-aggressions, who are proud to be "politically incorrect".
treestar
(82,383 posts)to accept your interpretation of an English word. Has the rest of the English speaking world has already accepted this? Language seems more of a joint venture to me.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)you know black people can't force white people to do a damn thing. You missed the point of this thread also. It's not about the word itself, but how white people, RWers and others have used the word to describe only actions by blacks, young males in particular. Since the nword cannot be used openly in polite society by whites anymore, a new word had to be found to disparage black people. Trayvon Martin was the start of this round and growth of the word thug to describe young black males. Language, when used by people who hate to disparage others not like them, is not a joint venture.
treestar
(82,383 posts)that is baldly stated.
This word has been around a long time. And applies to white people too. Mostly male, IMO, in fact I picture a white man (youngish) when I hear this word.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)tis your opinion only, keep pushing. Brick wall here. You can push all day, night, forever. I could care less. The OP is correct. Knowing the ability of the white racist culture to find code words so as to not look like the ignorant, hateful people they are, which doesn't fool any POC who is a recipient of that coding. I'm not surprised at this word thug that is in vogue since the murder of Trayvon Martin. It WAS NOT in any wide spread usage before his execution in describing alleged "poor" black behavior. Period.
Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)President Obama doesn't regret using the term "thug" in describing the violent rioters in Baltimore this week, spokesman Josh Earnest said Wednesday.
"Whether it's arson or, you know, the looting of a liquor store ... those were thuggish acts," Earnest said.
In discussing the riots Tuesday, Obama assailed the "criminals and thugs who tore up the place," and described them as a distraction from the real issues of police brutality.
Some critics ascribe racial connotations to the word "thug" -- Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake walked back the term earlier this week -- but Obama doesn't agree, officials said.
more: http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2015/04/29/obama-white-house-baltimore-stephanie-rawlings-blake/26585143/
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If I call black people nigg@, is it okay for you? Thug is a dog whistle and Obama can be wrong about things. Shocking, I know.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)Now that it has been outed and we're calling out people who use it. I'm sure the right wing hate machine is busy cooking up the next "secret" word.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts) F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)keep whites out of our schools and neighborhoods by
forced busing to the underfunded white schools clear across town; by
redlining
blockbusting
threats of vigilante violence
actual vigilante violence
sundown towning.
She was responding to my comment that if a group of BLACK COPS arrested then killed a white kid and THEN had the GALL to say the kid KILLED HIMSELF, well all hell would break out.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Thugs is a word some folk best be real careful with, we are right on the edge, folks.
arikara
(5,562 posts)the ones who taze, shoot and beat people up.
I'm fortunate to live in an area without racial tension. Mostly white but a very large native population, speckled with some black and Asian people as well. Many are intermarried. Lots of gay people, also many of which are married. Everybody gets along and gets to be themselves. We have the type of people in this community who build carts on wheels for the alcoholic bottle collector to push around, it not only holds his treasures but holds him up as he staggers up and down the street. Its his choice to live that way so we support him as much as possible.
My grandmother of German ethnic background was badly treated when she was a kid because of the war. She couldn't abide any type of bigotry and she would actually cry when someone used the n word. My aunt was able to come out 30 years ago and nobody in the family batted an eye.
So I respect the fact that particular word bothers you now, but it is going to take some getting used to. Because I thought it was the perfect word to describe how cops behave nowadays.
As for riots... if you dig deep enough most of them are caused by provocateurs not the kids. Cops. That word. If you take it away, you have to give me another one.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)
Thugs in Ireland and the UK are white fyi.
I do agree however that for now, in this instance with Baltimore, it's being used as code for AA rioters.
That said, I'm not sure you can unilaterally take that word and automatically appropriate it as a cultural slur. Language doesn't work that way. Obviously President Obama hasn't gotten the news from bravenak.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)just don't hear a dog whistle because they don't want to. Simple as that. Obama is wrong to use that term and I hope he reconciles that term with the reality as it is used by the racist pigs of amerikkka.
B2G
(9,766 posts)Or is it just blacks?
I need to understand the new rules.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You know, the one's who caused the crash? Or state sanctioned murderers, shit like that.
840high
(17,196 posts)thugs when they act like a thug.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Call my kids that and I'll name YOU racist.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)
Straight up.
Also, I am feeling incredibly stupid right now. Your user name is not "Bravenak" but "Brave_n_AK"
I'm a genius, I tell you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
Brave. I have to be brave here in Ak. Srsly. It's cray cray.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)"naming" someone a racist doesn't make them a racist.
Racist comments are about intent. There is absolutely no doubt that a non-poc directing the word nigge* at a POC, is racist in every way shape or form.
The word "thug" is one COMMON description of a person acting "badly".
IMO - unless you know the mindset of the person using "thug", or unless you know their intent - you cannot assign the label "racist" - without the risk of being wrong. That "thug" may now be be used by racists as code for, or in place of, nigge* can only be reliably true if the word is directed exclusively towards POC.
That you are offended by the use of the word is unfortunate, in that I fear you are wasting energy - energy (and cachet) better used fighting ACTUAL racism. Worse yet, you risk diminishing actual racist behavior and speech - because it will get lost in the noise generated by sensitivity to the word "thug".
IMO - Let's reserve the racist label for actual racists.
my two cents...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'll save racist for when I and other black folks think it applies. It's not up to white people to decide if we are allowed to call them racist for being racist. Obviously they refuse to take our word for it, so we will just have to make sure they know exactly what they sound like. When they get another dog whistle, I'll call them racist for that. And so on. And so forth. Until the say I die. Once they get sick of getting called racist, they'll stop, then I will stop. They gotta go first though.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)who are otherwise not alien to you.
That you would choose to be offended where no offense is intended is, as the good book says, "not wise".
There are surely many battles that we could (and will) fight together; I'm sorry, but I can not join you in this one.
Take care...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If they are alienated by that they were never on my side.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)holds the same opinion as you do - on every single subject.
Nor is it reasonable to expect that people "on your side" will agree with you on every subject. It's not normally possible - or even desirable.
You WANT those around you who are free to disagree with you - when THEY feel it is necessary. Unless this idea (thug = nigge*) is one that you are willing to fight to the death over.
Like I said though, there are many battles to fight involving real, identifiable racism. Expending energy on a perceived affront is a no-win proposition...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But if they are white folks getting their jollies calling black kids thugs, they would never be my friend. If they were, they'd get called racist until they cut it out.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)experienced racism firsthand. To bad you can't put yourself in someone else's shoes for 5 minutes to understand this context.
Logical
(22,457 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Those who do have the issue IMO! Any asshole, white or black can be a thug! Nice try though!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You're so awesome, you make sure to let us all know as much as you can.
Logical
(22,457 posts)F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)ann---
(1,933 posts)What else would you call people (of ANY color) who set fire to
businesses, police cars and people's homes?
They are a disgrace to the human race - no matter WHAT color.
"Thugs" used to mean the mafia gangs - as I recall. Those
who had no respect for anyone or anything.
NOLALady
(4,003 posts)Dr King called them "The Unheard".
VScott
(774 posts)Out of control cops = Jack Booted Thugs
See... it all works out in the end.
gopiscrap
(23,756 posts)as someone else pointed out that when sports fans riot after a championship they are called celebrants, but when people protest they are called thugs or rioters.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)has become a bigoted slur for no reason other than some people decided it's a bigoted slur.
IIRC, it was a British term that came from the cult of Thugee, an Indian group that was said to practice ritual murder. Etymology means nothing, of course, and now it has evolved to be an American racial insult. How about "thuggery"?
BTW, shouldn't use "hooligan" either, because that's an insult to Irish males.
Oh, wait! Irish? White males? That's OK. White males can always be targets because they're, well white males and probably deserve it.
Of course words can change and become code words, but part of that is objecting to them as code words-- complain enough and they'll use them as codes even more. Then that's all they'll be and another perfectly good word is dead.
Biker gangs are thugs. The Klan are thugs. Crips are thugs. MS-13 are thugs. The Mafia are thugs. Fraternity group rapists are thugs. And, often enough, rioters are thugs.
It's a perfectly good one syllable word to define, well, a thug.
It has the marvelous advantage of consonant sounds that just make it sound mean. Even if you never heard the word before, or are not an English speaker, you just kind of know it's something bad.
But now, it's only about some bad people.
Chalk another one up for the language police.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Words change over time. Once it got coopted as a dog whistle, it became a dog whistle.
Once white rioters got names celebrants while black got names thugs and Richard Sherman, graduate of Stanford university and million dollar ball player got call that for yelling, while white football players who yell are just excited, we knew wht time it was. Dog whistle time!!
This was letting you know that thug means nigge@ now. Sorry it takes something from you not to use that word, but it is what it is. Racist.
840high
(17,196 posts)and you're still wrong.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)packman
(16,296 posts)Thugs, an organized gang of professional assassins.
The Thugs travelled in groups across India for six hundred years.[1] Although the Thugs traced their origin to seven Muslim tribes, Hindus appear to have been associated with them at an early period. They were first mentioned in Ẓiyā-ud-Dīn Baranī's History of Fīrūz Shāh dated around 1356.[2] In the 1830s they were targeted for eradication by William Bentinck, Governor-General of India, and his chief captain William Henry Sleeman. The Thuggies were seemingly destroyed by this effort.[1][3]
The Thugs would join travelers and gain their confidence. This would allow them to then surprise and strangle their victims by pulling a handkerchief or noose tight around their necks. They would then rob their victims of valuables and bury their bodies. This led them to also be called Phansigar (English: using a noose), a term more commonly used in southern India.[4] The term Thuggee is derived from the Hindi word ठग, or ṭhag, which means "deceiver". Related words are the verb thugna, "to deceive", from Sanskrit स्थग sthaga "cunning, sly, fraudulent", from स्थगति sthagati "he conceals".[5] This term for a particular kind of murder and robbery of travellers is popular in South Asia and particularly in India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
Hell, when I was growing up "Thugs" were white hoodlums who beat people for - usually - economic gain or were goons hired to enforce their master's bidding.
According to Wikipedia , Thugs have their roots in Muslim and Hindu culture and - therefore - when a person uses that term he is really insulting an Muslim/Hindu.
Vinca
(50,261 posts)If you loot a store and burn it down, you're not a disillusioned youth, you're a thug. Thug means thug. It doesn't mean the n word.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Vinca
(50,261 posts)Must everything be construed as a racial slur? The word "thug" has been used for as long as I can remember and I'm old. Until 2 days ago I had never heard the notion that if a black person was called a thug it was somehow a code word for that other word. Maybe next week someone will call the people who loot and commit arson "hoods" or "vandals" and I suppose that will automatically be a racial slur if the perpetrators happen to be black. The whole country seems to be turning into a bunch of tender flowers who are offended by just about anything.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Vinca
(50,261 posts)Am I still allowed to call my skinny white neighbor a thug? He shoots high-powered rifles on the weekend and pisses me off. Am I allowed to continue to call out-of-control cops (white ones) thugs? Can I expect a visit from the etiquette police? I'm white - should I get my nose out of joint if someone offers me a Ritz cracker? If words ruin your world, you're going to have a very tough life.
bluesbassman
(19,370 posts)I guess that's the new "honky" then?
BTW, I don't use "thug" as a descriptor.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Because that is what "honky" originally meant. Since you deny "thug" can have evolved to mean "nigger", you would presumably deny the ability of "honky" to have evolved to mean "asshole whites".
bluesbassman
(19,370 posts)I did not. What I did question was the purpose of using a racially tinged descriptor in a rant decrying a racially tinged descriptor.
So what's your purpose here?
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)In less than an hour and a half! That's insane! You are a firecracker that's for sure! 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)Because I've seen what the OP has to offer so I don't see the reason to look at anything else they have to say?
Anyhoooo - it's apparent that a lot of familiar names showed up TBH. If you catch my drift.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Some folks are drawn to me. Not in a fun way. Sadly.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)
BklnDem75
(2,918 posts)Now we can be criminals without one of those pesky trial things.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Oktober
(1,488 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Oktober
(1,488 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Then check black publications. Look at Richard Sherman's interview. Then we can talk.
Oktober
(1,488 posts)Also spread through the thread? What's your point?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)value their integrity and humanity. Have fun with them.
Oktober
(1,488 posts)I'm good with that...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
George II
(67,782 posts)....I've heard "thug" used for just about anyone regardless of race.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I don't give a fuck whether they're black white green or purple.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)But if they do, I'd call them thugs.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)She kicks ass and sometimes breaks shit. Call her thug I name you racist. And I'll repeat it until you get embarassed and back off.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Honestly though, I can't think of any circumstance where I'd call your children anything but your children, out of respect for you.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I don't know how to make it any clearer that everyone involved in violence or vandalism gets the same respect (or lack thereof) from me.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Look up the lead poisoning rates in baltimore and the behaviorial effects that it brings along with it's effect on educational progress of the affected. You'll find that baltimore has many times the normal rate of lead poisoning. It's strange. Freddie Gray had won a lawsuit back in December for it. He was basically illiteraly and had behavioral problems related to lead. And he was tested. How many kids are never tested and just shipped off to jails we will never know.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Not shocking. Sickening.
Those "confusing" empathy with "cheering on," an "encouraging" and any number of dumb words that have been brought up to shout down those who truly feel empathy are just as sickening.
Side note: I'm "surprised" not too many people took me up on my hypocrisy thread yesterday.
Keep on doing what you're doing. I've learned a ton from you, and I'm sure others can too.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)It's an attack on empathy. There's been a lot of those lately. The Tsarnaev trial really got to me after reading the stuff said here.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Across the media, that word now has a very specific meaning.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)The word didn't used to be used that way but it certainly is now.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)LeftOfWest
(482 posts)And spot on here. That is EXACTLY how Thug is used, here in 2015.
2015....ugh.
As usual, a DU treasure you are bravenak.
"When you sit up in your well adjusted tower of American wonderfulness, all pale faced and bitterly angry screaming invectives at poor black youth, it reminds me of those people holding signs to prevent integration, spittle and hate flying in the breeze. That's what you look like. I figured you must not know, otherwise you'd cut it out."
You would think that they would cut it out, but maybe I am still naive heading into 6 decades on this planet.
You get it bravenak, all the way around. I hate how you have had to get it, enough.
Enough.
Many People I believed were my friends are not in my life anymore since President Obama was elected. I am done with that in my life. I don't care if I share DNA with the ignorant by choice jerks either, I am done. They know it and they know why and the ignorant bigots never have a response except some bs starting with 'but but but'...
Thank you for your words, they make a difference. They really do.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)again...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I felt forced in a way. Like 'fine, I'll be the one'. Somebody obviously has to go first.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)If I was 40 years younger, well 30 at the least, got to be able to dodge bullets, rubber and lethal, I would have been out in those streets also.
You're a treasure.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Starting back school in the Fall. Might be time for me to start educating folks. Prepare them for the future. Thank you.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)1. Admitting that the use of "thug" is proxy for n*gger is to excuse violence.
2. The term "thug" can't have racial connotations because it is race neutral just like the term, "wetback" since all races can get their backs wet.
3. But they use that word!
Am I missing any?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)code word.
"Thug" might have started with Dick Tracy, but yahoos own it now.
cali
(114,904 posts)here's the piece:
Fuck them.
Fuck all of the smug racists from Guiliani to Lowery to Scarborough to the creepy crawly denizens of RedState, Freeperville and Skinner's proud endeavor, Discussionist.
Fuck the assholes who use the new N word, thug, as a cudgel.
Fuck the cretins who scream reverse racism, attempting to drown out the reality of the real racism that pervades our society.
Fuck them for their lack of empathy and compassion. Fuck them for the hate they spew in the guise of analysis.
Fuck them. Same old white supremacist bigots in transparent new clothing.
And Fuck the MSM for giving them a platform and treating them as legitimate.
Fuck the Ferguson Police. Fuck the St. Louis Police. Fuck police everywhere who treat black lives as if they're worth nothing at all.
Fuck them all.
Edited to add: Fuck the racist republicans in office- and that would be most of them.
Feel free to add any I've missed.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's like they magically forget. Good op. It's all true. Fuck them all.
cali
(114,904 posts)all you have to do is go to any right wing site, chock full of racists, and see them employing the word.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)
mike dub
(541 posts)Although I have members of my immediate family who use the n-word (in same company, e.g., amongst immediate family or close white friends), thug is a big dog whistle stand-in they use quite a bit. One member of my family, knowing I'm one of the few liberals in our whole family, has even migrated to using 'punk' instead of thug ... as if any dogwhistle-radar is side stepped by his Not saying punk -- but he's invariably talking about African-Americans in highly uncomplimentary terms when he says it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)OnlinePoker
(5,719 posts)I have been since the 70's, and I will not change. It doesn't matter what the colour of skin is of the person I'm addressing. A thug is a thug.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)...when she told me she has always used "coloreds" and doesn't see any reason to change now.
Don't bother replying.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)It's an old word and I don't really care if any of the connotations of it bother anyone else. I will damned well describe as a "thug" anyone I think merits the description and could not care less what Fox "news, members of DU or anyone else thinks of my doing so.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Use thug on our children, and You look just like those sign waving anti integrationists.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)The colour of their skin has nothing to do with it. Any problem is in their head.
Please do an OP on Etymology, I'd love to read it. You often post much that makes sense and is good to read. I usually agree with what you write.
However, unless one is an editor of a dictionary or at the least a professor of English at a major university, I have no obligation to follow or respect their strictures on my use of the English language.
That doesn't mean I would throw the word around easily and of course I'm aware that it is a 'code' word amongst the reactionaries, and only an idiot or a Fox "News" listener (wait, I repeat myself)is going to use it the way the right wing currently does. That does not change a thing; I will use it when it describes the person or their actions, period.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Twerking just got in there and I been twerking for 20 years.
Once things go dog whistle and people of color tell you it's racist. Just let it go. You can find words that don't have the stigma.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)But the only people who dictate the proper usage of the English language to me, except for the editors of the OED, are either in a position to damage my livelihood or better armed/more willing to use physical force than I am, because if there is anything worth punching up/down/left or right for it's anyone who would try to control my thoughts and their expression.
ALL self appointed censors, be they of left or right, should be hung from the nearest lamp post. the ONLY function of language is to communicate what I intend to with the greatest accuracy possible, anyone offended is quite welcome to kiss my nether regions unless they can kick the same.
Edited to add, of course the sensitivities of the exploited and downtrodden should be respected, but saying *ANY* word is out of bounds is a slippery slope.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)As it is, you'll probably drop it anyways, just in case.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)On one hand, the poor and oppressed should be supported and defended. On the other hand self appointed 'guardians of the public morality', be they of left or right, should be vigorously fought, even if I personally agree with them. I would fight any censor to the death (preferably theirs) even if I hated a word, thought it should never be used and disliked the vast majority of the people who utilized it.
No on has the right to control the language of another.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Return. If you are fine with that, go down there and call those kids thugs to their faces. I bet you would never do that, too scared. You would never even say it in my face, cause after I called you racist super loud and embarassed you, that word would be dead to you.
If you cannot say it to them, then keep it yourself, cause if I hear it or see it, I will remind you as many times as it takes for you to get it. I have no problem repeating myself until people feel stupid.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)It makes as much difference to me as if you called me a Martian or a mountain lion. You can post my name and picture and call me a racist all you want, anyone who knows me will just laugh at you.
It's like this: I agree with you that most of the people who use this word are closet racists, who would be much happier using the Nword. And it's not a wise word to use around people with little to lose and not a lot of respect for academic debate. I'd no more use the word to describe urban youth in a blanket fashion that I would 'Redneck' or 'Cracker' or 'White Trash' to describe economically exploited rural whites; that's punching down and is uncool.
However I defy you to call me a racist to my face when I'm wearing my "Union Thug" T-shirt on a picket line. We've been called 'Union Thugs' for so damned long that, like AA's who use the N word or LGBT folks who appropriated 'queer' as a source of pride, people who find it inappropriate are more a source of humor than of concern. It is also an excellent word to describe the actions of some in the political right wing and such scum as the CEO of Nestle who opines that clean water is not a right, as well as the cops who took Freddie Gray for a ride.
Regards
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Call yourself whatever you like. Start spitting invectives at disadvantaged black youth and I'll scream it in your face, regardless of what shirt you have on.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)Then I agree.
And why the hell would you think I'd be "spitting invectives at disadvantaged *ANYONE*? I work in a 'welfare' (well, we call it Health and Human Services) office and helping disadvantaged people of all races and ages, it's what I do and want to do with my life!
If you mean a narrow definition by which where the N word was used now 'Thug' is instead, then yes, it is the new N-word. If you mean that the word should be off limits even where it describes brutal, coercive rapacious and intimidating behavior then Then I respectfully disagree. I mean I'd personally like to se Hannity get his butt kicked for using it to the wrong people, but calling me a racist if I call Hannity a thug would be like me calling you a member of the Illuminati - there are probably things I *could* say that would hurt you (and vice versa) -although I have less than zero desire to do so- but that wouldn't be one of them
regards
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I prefer to save thug for the powerful.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Traces back to the Thuggee society, in India, circa 1350.
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/04/thug/391682/
And in general, I agree with the gist of your OP. Now it seems almost exclusively used for young AA males. So I think your impression is correct.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Last edited Thu Apr 30, 2015, 05:29 PM - Edit history (1)
It's still a good word to describe Dick Cheney. It's also a good word for George Zimmerman and not at all appropriate for Trayvon Martin.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)and I've known cops who were perfectly described by the word 'thug'.
In fact, African Americans aren't the only ones to appropriate a word used against them. I have items proudly labeled "Union Thug"
http://unionthugs.org/product-category/short-sleeved-tshirts/
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)I think asshole is a better moniker. I don't want to use that toward Huckabee, because I get the feeling that if I knew him I might personally like him.
When one says "union thug," I think of Jimmy Hoffa and those suspected of murdering him. On the other hand, just "thug" will do for that bunch.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)regards
SaveOurDemocracy
(4,400 posts)Google Aryan Brotherhood images to see examples of my idea of THUGS. Better have a strong stomach.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Therefore, I'm right, It's racist, final answer.
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)Then it morphed from there. Somewhere along the line, I suspect, the RW did some arithmetic with words like Obama+Chicago thug+black=nigger, angry black man, a few other stereotypical names for black folks, lump all that brown and black skin into a bucket, get out the broad paint brush and use liberally, everywhere.....whenever a fresh dog whistle was needed.
These are just a few examples, I'm sure there are many more.
Sorry for the bad block quoting, for some reason I can't separated them using my tablet.
From 2008
https://startthinkingright.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/bill-clinton-obama-has-political-instincts-of-a-chicago-thug/
Bill Clinton believes the Democratic nominee, far from practicing a unifying, transformational brand of politics, has the political instincts of “a Chicago thug,” one longtime associate said. Clinton has told people that Obama allowed surrogates to try to suppress Hispanic turnout in the Nevada caucuses and played “the race card” in reverse against the Clintons in South Carolina and other states.[quote][\div]
********************
Didn't take horse's ass Limbaugh long to run with it.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2008/08/28/obama_uses_chicago_thug_politics_to_intimidate_shut_down_criticismThis is the Obama that the Drive-Bys will not tell you about. This is the Obama who wants to clear the playing field. His accomplishments were not on display last night. Nobody at that convention could describe his accomplishments because there aren't any that they can talk about. His real accomplishment is learning the art of Chicago thug politics. Bill Clinton is exactly right, and that's what you need to be concerned about, in addition to what we know as his radical leftist policies would be, that's what you need to know about Obama.[\quote]
********************
From 2009
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/15/tea-party-leader-melts-do_n_286933.htmlCooper had done his homework, however, and caught Williams blatantly misrepresenting himself: "What you're saying makes sense to me here when I'm hearing what you say but then I read on your blog, you say, you call the President an Indonesian Muslim turned welfare thug and a racist in chief."
Williams shrugs and responds, "Yeah, that's the way he's behaving." An incredulous Cooper asks Williams if he really believes Obama is an Indonesian Muslim and a welfare thug. The tea party leader digs the hole a little deeper: "He's certainly acting like it. Until he embraces the whole country what else can I conclude."[/quote]
********************
From 2012
http://www.newser.com/story/154763/gop-affiliate-posts-photos-of-obama-as-caveman-thug.html
NEWSER) – President Obama photoshopped to look like a witch doctor, a caveman, and a thug recently appeared, not on the Facebook page of a misbehaving teen, but on the official Facebook page of the Mecklenburg County Republican Committee. The photos have been there for months, the Washington Post reports, but apparently started getting widespread attention this week. Now the Virginia Republican Party has officially told the affiliate to take the pictures down.
"These kinds of images have no place in political discourse—period," says the chairman of the Republican Party of Virginia. "They are offensive, tasteless and should never have been posted anywhere, let alone a local unit’s Facebook page." The executive director of the group that brought the images to light calls them racist, saying they "seek to portray our president, and black men more broadly, as, quote unquote, savages."
********************
From 2012 Limbaugh re enforces it again.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0412/74792.html
He’s a thug,” Limbaugh said on his radio show. “I’m not trying to be provocative when I say this. I’m just quoting Bill Clinton, folks. Bill Clinton referred to Barack Obama as a Chicago thug during the 2008 presidential campaign.
[\quote][\div]
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Bill was quite the dog whistler during that campaign. I stopped liking him after that.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)I don't care if Obama thinks it's ok, that is his business. I am white, I won't use the term if it offends and I can understand why.
locdlib
(176 posts)as usual, you hit every nail right on the head. don't you just love it when white people tell you they are not offending you while they offend you? and then use the president and the dictionary as excuses to continue being offensive? racists on du, the media, and other sites have settled in reaaal comfortable-like with this latest dog whistle.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I used to get angry but that just made some happier. I refuse to let people stay comfortable.
BrainMann1
(460 posts)Let me set the record straight about using the word thug to be scribe black folks. It's not the new word for us. Its always been used to describe us since the 1920's. It is definitely use primarily to refer to Black men period not White not Latino and not old white guys from the establishment or mob. So now you know. We are not surprise that it took until now for some people to know this.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I noticed it start up when I was a teen, but that may have just been when I noticed it. Sad to see it's much older than that and people still pretend not to know.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)the way you're approaching this, IMHO. I agree with you that many people, on the right especially, use thug as a dog whistle, and not just that word, there others I hear that basically get at the same thing. But many don't, as obviously compared to the N word, and I'm not sure the N word was ever really a dog whistle like this word.
But the way you're trying to convince people to give up the word aren't going to convince people who honestly use it in all contexts, even if they know it's a dog whistle in some. Yes, the fact that Obama still uses it is a reflection that it's a little harder to discern for people than the N word. Etymology is pretty complicated stuff. Just saying "etymology bro" comes off as really condescending, I don't think Obama is an idiot.
And, it's always going to come across as a bit presumptuous when you tell people to stop using words without much context as to why and just demands. Even if you point out some people use it as a dog whistle, that's not going to convince everyone to give up the word forever.
I can think of quite a few words that are used as dog whistles by Republicans, but it seems at some point to be a bit like giving up ground and conceding all this vocabulary to conservatives if the solution is to stop using the words. I'm not even sure it's that effective. I'm pretty sure it isn't.
That is to say, it could be possible to point out how conservatives are only using words in certain contexts, and to avoid using the word in those contexts, but use them in the exact opposite contexts as a way to battle this sort of dog whistle.
I personally try to avoid using all dog whistle commentary once I know of it, and it's an ever evolving field. But I think the words can be used with some effect to expose how the word is being used by some as the dog whistle it is.
I try to avoid all name calling for people in general anymore, any sort of adjectives that make a person seem inherently bad or to have a fatal flaw of character. My view is that people can change, and environment is mostly at play in most people's actions or thoughts, I only use those adjectives for ideas, or try to.
This sort of view avoids the problem almost entirely, if a person is afraid of using words that they don't know are dog whistles.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm letting them know how racist they look. If they offend using those terms they have already been told. Then, when they get called a racist asshole, they won't be shocked. If I have to write book and spread the message, it will be done. I refuse to let them call our children who they already marginalize and disrespect, ignore and redline, whose fathers they imprison and whose mothers they shame, thugs ; while all wrapped up in superiority of their betterthanness, without feeling the uncomfortable feeling that they are also being judged similarly harshly. I will name them racist and do it swiftly and with rancor or without, sunday through saturday, from Alaska to Florida.
They feel too comfortable doing it and I feel uncomfortable hearing it. If they are going to make my stomach sick I'm going to shame them right back. Bet they won't go up to a group of those kids calling them names. They feel so safe from their castles judging the dirty peasants. Fuck that shit.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Yeah, I get it that using thug for black people now comes across as racist, and I think it's a good idea to spread the news it's a dog whistle, but many people are naive of it, or don't think not using the term is a way to battle a dog whistle. You can label them racists, but it won't have much meaning in some cases, and come across as pretty ridiculous in some.
I think you are trying to persuade people to stop using the term, and part of your strategy is to call anyone who uses the term against black people a racist. I don't think that's going to be effective, and even if it is, it's kinda a shitty way to convince people, threatening them with negative labels that don't necessarily fit. It just diminishes real charges of racism.
Again, is Obama a racist? Is it not possible to just disagree with wanting to give up every word the right appropriates for whatever purpose? Is your only response to people who don't know or who don't agree to give up the term that they are racists? You're not going to get far, IMHO. Better ton
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think I'm going to do just fine. Check back in 1 year and see if the more resistant ones have corrected their speech. I bet they will have.
If they want to use labels on my kids that don't fit, they will be fitted with labels just as nasty. Things will go my way. I am very convincing and I'm right. When I'm right, I just am.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)It's just some of what you were saying before made it sound like you thought anyone who uses the term in the wrong context was a racist. Saying he's wrong seems a lot more correct to me, and yeah, I think he'll change his mind too, if the word continues to be used as a dog whistle, but it's surprising how fast the language changes, and a lot of conservatives are pretty damn good at finding ways to wink at their bigoted base as various terms start being discovered as code words.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Context is everything.
yourout
(7,527 posts)Thug has more or less replaced years ago.
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)I have lost track of the number of words we are not allowed to use anymore.
Vinca
(50,261 posts)You don't know from one day until the next what word is or is not politically correct. I'm with you. A thug is a thug is a thug and color has nothing to do with it.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)language. They are racists. I avoid those people like the plague now.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm glad. Richard Sherman really made me think long and hard and stop making excuses. I try not to use any coded language now. Can't even use cracker. Makes me uncomfortable.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)When you see a group of union workers picketing, the phrase "union thugs" is often used to describe average working people trying to stand up for themselves. I have read the phrase numerous times in opinion pieces by right wing mouthpieces. So thugs does have a long history of being used, and never in a good way. Like nigg**, thug is never intended as a compliment.
I also agree with some here that keeping up with "dog-whistle" words and phrases can be a challenge. I remember the first time I heard the word "Canadian" used as slang for black person. I was in a meeting at work and a co-worker talked about the new "Canadian" who had been hired. I asked where exactly she was from. (Province, that is.) He looked at me and said she was "Canadian", with more emphasis. I asked again and he explained that she was from Chicago, not Canada. She was a black female, by the way.
Amazing how racists have to invent new code words to say the same crude racial nonsense.
Great post bravenak
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Canadian? They try so hard. So hard.
I only like thug to use against the powerful, not the plebs.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Agreed, it is the 1% in their suits who are the thugs who have caused the problems in the US. Thugs like Jamie Dimon and Alan Greenspan, and David Koch, and the whole Walton family.
But rich thugs do not get shot or choked to death by the police.
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)I'll stick with the current dictionary definition, thank you.
And I do not recognize your authority to tell me otherwise.
Now, call me a racist bigot so I won't be disappointed. (And call President Obama that also.)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm sure you'll find it comforting when you get called a racist.
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)And if not comforting, at least understanding the source of the sentiment.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Best not to be called coward as well as racist when you call them thugs.
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)They saw NM Birder locked out of the thread for calling you a racist - and now they are trying to goad you into saying it.
It's like this simmering rage. I don't see why they are upset. We all know the cops are going to spin it that Mr. Gray broke his own neck and get away with it. Those punks always get away with it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You're right. They are very unbelievably angry at this. Really, they should thank me for warning them and telling them how they sound. God forbid they walked up to a group of kids and called them these names in the nasty way they have been doing behind their backs! I'm worried about their safety.
I'm hoping to get some thank you notes from the more resistant ones very soon. I'm sure I wll be getting them any day now. Very soon.
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)They DON'T always get away with it.
Now that I've admitted I was wrong -
I intend to be a snickering gloating little snot at DU for the next few days.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm still in shock a little. Yay!!!
johnp3907
(3,730 posts)Just popping in to this long thread as a show of support and agreement.
bravenak
(34,648 posts) 
Wash. state Desk Jet
(3,426 posts)A thug could be anybody or even faceless.
youtube.com
Butterbean
(1,014 posts)Bravenak is right, and people who disagree are splitting hairs here. If you really take an honest look at it, and let go of the hostile, guilty, kneejerk offended-at-being-possibly-identified-as-a-racist reaction, you (I say that as a general "you," addressing those who are not AA) can really see it for what it is. Yeah, maybe people who aren't racists and who can see things with clearer heads will identify white youths rioting and looting as "thugs" the same as they would black youths. HOWEVER, the turning point came when it became a code word or dog whistle for the n-word, and that has made it offensive to use, regardless if the person using it meant no offense or racism.
It's been MADE something ugly by others, and therefore, perception is what matters most here, and perception, as we know, is everything in our society. Our society speaks in code a lot of the time, and for those with an agenda, that goes doubly so.
Is it uncomfortable to discuss this and to admit that yet again, the racists have made another seemingly innocuous word something dirty and vile? Yes. Does it mean it's not real and offensive, even if the president uses it? No.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Exactly.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)you are stating that a word is now inappropriate to use (in its accurate context, not as a racist dog whistle which we all agree is the case) because a bunch of knuckle dragging cretins on the right have appropriated it for their vile purposes?
Sorry. I don't let Fox 'News' tell me what language I can use, however obverse the manner.
And yes, it is hair splitting, because words matter. I'm no more worried about being called a racist than you are about being accused of being a member of the Illuminati
Butterbean
(1,014 posts)It's been appropriated by racists, and is now a racist dog whistle, and, whether we like it or not, shouldn't be used. Sort of like how you automatically facepalm when the first word someone uses to describe an African American in a complimentary way is "articulate." Yeah........not a compliment, and we all know why, without having to break it down into small words and sentences to explain it.
I would hope that the people who post and read here are intelligent enough to figure that out on their own without playing word games and semantics. It's also not me who's saying this, it's a lot of people in the African American community who are saying this, and their opinion is the one that matters.
Prism
(5,815 posts)I can say with high confidence that "thug" is used towards people of all races. We use it against white cops, white bullies, mafia members, etc. In pop culture, we use it to denote minions of villains.
I think this is largely a selective perception issue. Honest question - how aware are you of the frequency it is used to describe nonblacks? Because the word is all over our culture.
This reminds me a bit of the "butt hurt" brouhaha. It has always been used to denote an ass kicking or getting spanked. Somewhere along the way (fairly recently), someone decided it meant anal sex, and now people will call you homophobic for using it. Someone actually had a go at me on Facebook about it, calling me a homophobic bigot, and he was gay and so was automatically right, etc etc. I'm gay, told him to stuff it, and merrily went on my butt-hurting way.
I've listened to your thoughts, gandered at the culture, looked at who uses the word and how. While it may be used racially in limited segments, it is still a fairly universal, nonracial word by itself and just doesn't seem anywhere near the level of n-word.
So I disagree. Respectfully. Given how you and others feel, I will be careful to omit it from my vocabulary if the topic involves black youth.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)It is clearly used as a dog whistle by racists today. For that reason alone, we should stop using the word all together. It's really not that hard to do if one cared enough.
In the 80's, the right used it to describe union members. In my entire adult life, I never used the word for that very reason. Today, it's prevalently used when the right refers to black youth. It has been a right wing word used for quite some time to incite hate and fear of union members and black youth. There was absolutely nothing thuggish about Trayvon Martin, yet the right used it to impugn his character because that's what they freaking do to all black children. Why are there so many on the left willing to play this right wing game?
One thing is certain, name calling never solved any problems. It's symptomatic of having a lack of answers.
bravenak
(34,648 posts) Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)
kick
Response to bravenak (Original post)
Marr This message was self-deleted by its author.
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)wrongly.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)it's going to take me all afternoon to update my IL...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I figure it helps me learn who to avoid by seeing what they say. And they say plenty. Plenty.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I grew up in an abusive, alcoholic home. A lot of the bigotry and verbal abuse herein triggers me. I find it healthier to relegate the racists, homophobes, sexists, misogynists and verbal bullies to the IL, so that I can read cogent OPs and comments that help me think and grow.
There are some who've posted in response to your OP that I had on my IL before the last time I purged it. (I tend to purge my IL every few months, leaving only those who've been overtly threatening to me...) I am not surprised that I'll be putting them back.
Our younglings are precious and deserving of a safe, supportive environment in which to thrive. I have to agree with one of our 2016 candidates, who adjured that we need to treat each and every one of our children as though they are our very own.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If I could stop being nosy lost enough to ignore people, it would be healthier. But I can't. Just gotta see what oeople say, even the weird ones.
I agree too. Every child is one of ours, if we could see that they would thrive. Nothing is more important than our people.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)backwoodsbob
(6,001 posts)they are thugs...black or white...they are thugs
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Does this make you feel superior to somebody by putting them down? How disgusting. I really think racist are stupid as shit and refuse to learn.
Response to bravenak (Reply #384)
Post removed
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think you need to retract the comment where you call me thuggish. ^^^
marym625
(17,997 posts)I can't believe you said that! You know I prefer "melanin challenged"
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
Funny how that's the thing that upset so many.
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)to type "thug", but you had to use *'s to censor "nigger"?
The title of your own OP suggests you don't believe they are the same, since you would have typed it out as "thu*" instead of "thug"
bravenak
(34,648 posts)GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)Why type out "thug" instead of "thu*"
bravenak
(34,648 posts)GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)You don't think its OK to say one, but it is OK to say the other. I got it, and I agree
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Snow Leopard
(348 posts)Sounds racist
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Especially when they go all fake and start talking about reverse racism. The stupid and most racist ones are the ones who think black folks are the real racists.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)nc4bo
(17,651 posts)If our President had called sadistic, racist asshole, murdering cops.........THUGS?
Wouldn't that have brought out the smelling salts, tar and feathers, maybe even a few nooses hanging on a few well placed trees around Pennsylvania Ave..
The meltdown would be epic.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)Exactly my point.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's the blue line no snitching thing. And the unifirm. And tge power to be a state sanctioned murderer.
1handclapn
(105 posts)...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Except unions, the refuge of the middle class. I agree. We should not call poor kids thugs, white black or otherwise. They are all of our children. Save it for rich investment bankers who steal all our money and homes. And cops. And politicians.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)WE'RE TAKING IT BACK! 
IronLionZion
(45,425 posts)I get what you're saying and how it has been used offensively by racists to insult African Americans. But the word thug literally came from my people (Indian) and it means "deceiver" and used to describe organized criminals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
I think most reasonable people of all demographics know there is a big difference between the peaceful protesters and the violent rioters. There is a criminal element that waits for opportunities to incite violence and theft and all sorts of mayhem so they can benefit their own agenda. And yes there are good people caught up in between because they are justified in feeling angry, and manipulative individuals will try to recruit them for bad things. It happens everywhere.
I certainly will call the deceitful manipulative organizers of crime as thugs, whether they be black, white, brown, yellow, or even orange like john boehner. Many here can agree that Chris Christie is a thug, and Ted Cruz too. Tea Party thugs kept me from working or getting paid for no useful reason except that they are shitheads.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
valerief
(53,235 posts)in their efforts to get us 99% to battle each other with hate and leave the true assholes, the billionaires, alone.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I felt pleasure. I hope it happens often.
valerief
(53,235 posts)CullenBohannon
(64 posts)Last edited Thu Apr 30, 2015, 09:36 PM - Edit history (1)
anyone who attacks innocent bystanders/store owners or throws bricks at cops are thugs.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Unless you are scared, maybe. Go down baltimore and yell thug at them off camera. Report back please. Thx.
CullenBohannon
(64 posts)Would the average AA go into a "redneck bar" and call them out? lol FYI I think outlaw bikers and mafia are also thugs.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I never say anything to anybody that I would refuse to say in their face. And yes, I have called white power activist racist to their face. They agreed. Period. No shame in their game. They were proud.
We deal with 'red necks' all the time. Yes. We tell them what we think when we see them. But what we don't do is sit around spitting invectives at poor white folks from our suburban mc mansions or nice townhomes. Black folks, even rich ones, do not sit around trashing poor white Appalachians and call them names. No need. They already dirt poor and hopeless.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)if you had forgotten the sarcasm tag. After reading the thread, you seem serious. In need of a dictionary, but serious.
Needless to say, I disagree with your attempt or agreement to redefine the word and will not participate in such unnecessary redefinition when other words already serve your desired definition.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You can call names, so can I. It's easy.
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)I did not call anyone names.
bravenak
(34,648 posts) ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)All I ask is that you use the proper term(s) when you do so.
sus453
(164 posts)been used historically without any racist connotation. However, language can and does change. "Thug" is now a code word used by the right against protesters, particularly African American protesters when they get "out of hand". I've never seen the term used to describe white hooligans who are upset (or overjoyed) by the outcome of a sports event, not against police officers who beat, maim, and kill young people of color and who terrorize whole communities. It's a term meant to instill disgust and fear in the listener.
By the way, I'm proud that it was my city councilman Carl Stokes (of Baltimore) who called CNN out on their continued misappropriation of that term.
bravenak
(34,648 posts) 
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Oh wait, those are Thuggees. Oh, where, where do you think the word "thug" originally came from?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)seveneyes
(4,631 posts)a+b=c and we all supply the variables to concoct that which we desire.
Such is life, as we know it. Respect those who intend no harm and watch your six.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I bet they get paid.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)
raven mad
(4,940 posts)Everyone.
You, dear one, are no thug. No one I know is. I think it's a "handle" that stupid people use.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Thank you.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It's harder for the government to take them away if everyone has them.
raven mad
(4,940 posts)in 1954.
Only an ignorant and/or racist person would use the term nowadays.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)It much harder to avoid saying it when in casual conversation.
I have heard "thug" in a lot of conversations & I cannot recall it being used for a white person in about a decade.
Suji to Seoul
(2,035 posts)thugs, n-bomb, spearchucker, porchmonkey, beaner, kike, daego. . .Americans today don't even hide it anymore. It's wide open!
Can't wait for my honeymoon when someone makes an Asian crack about my wife and I make an American crack upside their head.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We don't even have sense to hide it anymore.
GeorgeGist
(25,319 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)I am quite sure that was mentioned several times above, but have not read all 500 or so responses.
Sorry - disagree. "Thug" knows no racial barriers. How many times has the term been used right here to describe out-of-control police?
And where did your authority come from to make this declaration?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If you are so comfortable with it, go down there to baltimore and tell them what thugs they are, since you are so righteous.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)as "thugs."
I wondered about his use of that word in this case.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I noticed how bad it was during Trayvon, that boy was called a thug just for getting suspended from school and his clothes. No criminal record. Just black and young and male. Good student. Richard Sherman, called a thug, Stanford graduate, good student, professional ball player, yells after a big game? Thug! It gets used for any black man that the media has a problem with, even Obama, the Chicago thug. I cannot see how people don't see it. So many blind.
I wondered about it just like you, and realized that politicians are blind cause they live in this Washington bubble. They find stuff out last. I hope he will talk to folks about this and corrects it in the future.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)of any color who either committed petty crimes or harassed people as they were walking by...no serious crimes that would make them criminals.
Probably since the President no longer works in Chicago in poor neighborhoods he's not on to the new use of the word. I hope that's the case, otherwise I am very disappointed in him.
The damage done in Baltimore wasn't so much as criminal as it was rage. When they've gotten their justice, I bet they make amends to the people who were hurt during the riots... a lot of good people there, and many have been accused of having switchblades long enough.
And like one of the youths said, when they were peaceful, nobody paid attention. After the damage was done, everybody finally paid attention. I hope the cops don't get off easy. Maybe they have no prior record of brutality, etc., but that means they weren't scrutinized as much as the blacks just walking on the street.
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)bein a white boy and hip hop enthusiast there go all of my 'THUGLIFE' shirts and ballcaps...though given the people I know best, I'm pretty sure there'll be no issue if I keep rockin em.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Don't throw them away on a whim!!! It's fine if you self identify as a member of the thug nation.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)I disagree with President Obama. I would call them criminals because a thug doesn't know any better when they act irrationally. A criminal plans out to break the law on the other hand. A lot of the carnage unleashed in Baltimore was planned out.
stonecutter357
(12,695 posts)i had to
Together we are strong enuff to save my favorite word, I wont let the racist have it..
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Based on this thread, though, I plan to stop using it to refer to violent criminals who are black. I think that it is developing into a racist expression. Thanks for the post.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
blackspade
(10,056 posts)I use it how it is originally intended, to describe bullies and the powerful.
A cop beating citizens in the streets...Thug
Politicians taking food from the mouths of the hungry...Thug
Bankers throwing families out onto the streets....Thug
Those are the thugs in our society, not the oppressed.
To let M$M and politicians continue to use the word as you describe is ceding power in ways that diminish language and communication.
We must not allow these racist fucks to control the discourse in this way.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)I think that you are spot on that the M$M and the powers that back them and the cops have been on a hunt for a n-word replacement.
They think that they have found it.
My argument would be to turn their usage on its head. Those that are asked 'thug' questions should address the powerful in response.
So, when the M$M asks a protester about denouncing the 'thugs' 'rioting' the response should be that that would be a question better answered by the police commissioner, the leader of the thugs.
But I take your point that around here, and in general discourse, one should not use the word to describe minorities.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We should tell the to go to th police department to find the thugs. They would be so upset at Fox News. Today is a good day.
blackspade
(10,056 posts) 
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Thay are just soooo sad.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)
Damansarajaya
(625 posts)they can't use the N word publicly anymore.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm watching msnbc, I woke up to charges filed.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)BAT RASTARDS tortured Freddie before they murdered him. I hope they all spend a very long time in prison, contemplating their ruthless and pointless hate.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Stay in there with the people they abused during their patrols. Learn how to talk to those 'thugs' that they put in the very same jails, learn respect for human life before they leave this world.
They arrested him for no reason. They killed him for fun. Sick sick sick people.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Too many of our younglings disrespected, harassed, and murdered. Murdered, in cold blood.
Really, what is our species coming to?!?
chervilant
(8,267 posts)school Geraldo Rivera about FOX being so ready to get footage of "riots," after they've ignored the poverty in Baltimore, AND all the activism by the younglings trying to effect change! I am so glad that people are confronting those vile propagandists!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We have to confront them often and in their faces. I plan on being more assertive and letting people know what's really going on more often. Geraldo ought to be ashamed of himself. He's a full blown sell out.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)that I can stomach for very long. I don't own a television, and I tend to get my news online. I'm glad our younglings are using their phones to record these travesties. Otherwise, I think people would "disappear" without much of a whimper.
It's getting so much worse. I can hardly bear to hear that yet another innocent person has died--murdered by some pathetic cretin who's been empowered to "protect and serve."
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Racists pick certain words to use as code words because the words have an existing meaning which makes the word applicable in some situations.
Then, they take those words, and start to use them selectively, and almost exclusively, in racial situations.
They do this so they can feign ignorance and claim pure motives when using the code words.
A good racist code word is a word that some people of good will might still use in those same situations. Which is great from the racists perspective because they can point to those uses, and declare that their own selective overuse of the term, is perfectly justified. Part of the give-a-way, is how they call Obama and Eric Holder "thugs" too.
Meanwhile, they laugh like hell because they think they are getting to shout N****R, with no repercussions, just like they used to be able to do before that became socially unacceptable.
Racists hate hiding their racism. So they use code words so they can say what they really wanted to say very publicly, and yet then deny any bad intent when called on it. They get to have their cake and eat it too.
Honestly, I find it hard to believe that any white guy of a certain age (like me) would be unaware of this. Most of us probably still have a racist or two in our families, and we know exactly what they mean when they use words like "thug".
d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)On the old website I used to frequent (gocomics) the cons there would refer to Tavon Martin, Mike Brown, and Eric Garner as thugs on a constant basis. I also remember the word used to describe Seahawks cornerback Richard Sherman when he went on his playoff rant by Fixed News. BTW he agrees with you:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24417234
bravenak
(34,648 posts) 
yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)Chinatown as well. They may not be Tongs..but they have been called Thugs, even in Liberal San Francisco.
