General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumssocial/economic justice
Social justice is defined in this article according to
The Social Work Dictionary
(Barker, 2003: 404–5) as: ‘An ideal condition in which all members of a society have the same basic rights, protection, opportunities,obligations, and social benefits A key social work value, social justice entails advocacy to confront discrimination, oppression,and institutional inequities.
’Economic justice is a narrower concept, referring to the standard of living that ideally should be equitable. All persons ought to have opportunities for meaningful work and an income that provides them with adequate food, shelter and a level of living that contri-butes to good health. Whereas social and economic justice is a general term that relates to society in general, human rights is a term that, from the point of view of the people, refers to specific universal standards relevant to freedom and well-being, personal and collective right
http://www.academia.edu/485556/Social_and_economic_justice_human_rights_and_peace
maybe it is a misunderstanding in conversation and definition. when i talk about social justice, and when referencing it with sanders, this is what i am discussing. to see him fall short in this area, in the campaign, is not unfair, as far as i see.
just like when discussing clinton, i have no problems at all talking about how i feel she falls short with corporate and wallstreet.
i do not get nearly the flack from clinton supporters (nary a word) when discussing that, then when i discuss the social issue with sanders.
now. i am not doing the same ole battle. just put this OP out for clarity. if anyone chooses to be interested in why i say what i do.
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seabeyond
(110,159 posts)interested in how i define it.
weird that.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)here is the thing. when men, that have been fighting with me on womens issues for three years, make comments like this.... it only bolsters what i am saying. discuss either respectfully with thought. or.... no.
all this is, is a pile on to derail the thread.
i. am. not. playing. that. game.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)is not part of the dialogue. and you have earned that.
i will not reply, again.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Not that you had any evidence to prove anyway
Just wow.
Your arrogance is exceeded only by your appalling ignorance of history and the fact that the struggles for social and economic justice have been one in the same since the Industrial Revolution.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Actually, Seabeyond, everyone gets to be part of the dialogue. Your problem in these threads seems to be that many of the voices in the dialogue disagree with you.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)There is no point, anymore.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)You're a white person trying to instruct me on racism! It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
cui bono
(19,926 posts)If you're going to play the gender card, let's see if you followed the link I, a woman, sent you to the fantastic video where Sanders rails about women's rights. Surely as a self-described Sanders supporter and feminist you would jump at the chance to rec and kick that thread...
Oops... nope. No rec from you on that. Why not?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026614702
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)If one cares about the issues, one discusses the issues. But that's not what is going on here.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)Nor are people disagreeing with something you've said a pile on. I'm a woman and a feminist. I'm not a supporter of sanders or Clinton. And what I'm seeing is a refusal to listen, to acknowledge hard cold facts given by brother Ivan and cui bono, and to answer any questions asked of you in this or the Scandinavian thread.
My question for you is what issues affecting women in Scandinavia don't you want the U.S. To be like? Is it reproductive rights? Maybe parental leave? Or is it their universal health care?
polly7
(20,582 posts)that we all know are disastrous for women and children - not only those being killed or mutilated initially, but being thrust into even worse poverty as widows, loss of rights d/t the religious fanatics that never fail to emerge, made refugees, imprisoned and in many cases even tortured makes one a proponent of women's rights?
Those women never seem to matter.
If you don't believe in equal rights and protections for every woman and girl on the planet including those who happen to be unfortunate enough to suffer in countries thought of as hostile to western 'interests', you really only care about two classes of women - those in developed countries who 'deserve' equal rights and those who try to function under govt's willing to serve western interests.
Stand for all or don't pretend you stand for any.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The thing is, you have things going on in your mind. An entire drama being played out with characters always waiting in the wings. And the theme is always the SAME theme.
Everything viewed through a single-colored prism.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)At this point you have made it abundantly clear that you are NOT a Sanders supporter. That you are pretending to be one so that we are then supposed to listen to your slanderous statements against him and suppose them to be true even though they are so easily shown to be completely false and fabricated (to use your word) by listening to him speak and looking at his record in the Senate and House.
Just as others have said, when you are presented with facts you conveniently ignore those posts. Then you play victim and start this thread as what, a pity party for yourself?
Go respond to people's fact filled posts if you want to be understood. Respond to some of the ones in this thread even.
I've given you links to Bernie fighting for women's rights, civil rights and LGBT rights and you just ignore it and continue with your slander and playing victim.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)that he would govern for white males. You even called it "trickle down". I still don't understand what you were saying, here it is for context:
it is addressing wallstreet/corporation.
that is middle class/upper middle class issues.
that is white and male
that is trickle down.
Why do you define economic justice as excluding minorities and women? And why then attribute that to Sanders by saying his campaign is only about economic justice? He's never defined it the way you do. What exactly do you mean by "it is addressing wallstreet/corporation". When you say that and say "trickle down" you are making it sound as if you think Bernie is going to help Wall Street and corporations. If you really believe that you really need to stop posting here and just go watch some videos of Bernie speaking. You clearly do not know what he stands for at all.
And you post this OP after I pm'd you links to my OPs about Bernie fighting for women's rights and civil rights. Did you watch the women's rights video? Because out of 37 recs your name's not there, so I guess you haven't watched it yet. Anyone who cares as much as you do about women's rights and is a self-proclaimed Bernie supporter would surely rec that.
This OP seems to be more about trying to make Sanders' supporters big ol' meanies than anything else. There were a lot of people who did not think you were saying what you seem to think you were saying. I can tell you that in a couple threads over the last couple days you have more than insinuated that Sanders either just does not care about racism and sexism or that he actively wants things to get worse on those fronts. I'm not the only on who took it that way based on the subthreads.
Honestly, I would give it a rest if I were you. If you are being sincere, go find out more info on Sanders. Go watch the women's rights video. Go read how he marched for civil rights in the 60's. And don't get mad, as you did in a pm, that it was decades ago. He hasn't stopped fighting for equality for all since then. Google it. You'll see. Just look it up. Then you won't have to have these exchanges that leave you frustrated and feeling that people are misunderstanding you and attacking you. You'll have the facts on your side and those facts will be that Bernie is a fighter for everyone on both economic and social issues.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Add that to the women's rights OP and the civil rights OP and you can see how great Bernie is on social issues. So now you can put that concern to bed. Bernie is your man!!!
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Bernie's views on economic justice for women:
"We must also bring about pay equity. There is no rational reason why women should be earning 78 cents on the dollar compared to men who perform the same work"
http://www.alternet.org/visions/bernie-sanders-country-belongs-all-us-not-just-billionaire-class
The entire article is excellent.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)and you don't get flack from Hillary supporters because they know you're right about her.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and when they do, they will see that i am not dissing sanders or calling him anything. i support him. i saw what he was capable of giving us way before many many people who now accuse me of saying,..... what seabeyond is really saying is, he is racist and sexist.
anyone that has listened to me all these years knows that is bullshit. that includes you. have you ever seen me support someone that is racist and sexist? no. i am a pretty reasoned person. yet all of a sudden i have three heads. that is not logical, and doesnt make sense. so probably, that is not correct.
i would never even stick a toe in if i thought he was racist and sexist.
i would state clearly and often, he was racist and sexist, unequivocally. and say why. i do not have a problem with that.
maybe.... people can stop and take a breath. seeing all i have supported him consistently without tearing clinton down.
i have something going on with a tooth. i am in pain. i have had things to deal with, until about this moment. i cannot catch up on that other thread, for anything in the world. maybe i will come back to this thread. start all over. and discuss... but after i deal with my tooth. and that is not until later today.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)But I do think you're wrong that he isn't as interested in fighting for social justice as he is in fighting for economic justice. His campaign just started - I hope he can make it clear enough that he supports civil rights as his campaign goes along.
Very sorry about your tooth. 
My dad always swizzled whiskey around in his mouth when he had a toothache - that might be fun! 
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)sorry i cannot be here to discuss. shower, pest guy then dentist
cali
(114,904 posts)you posted one of the most disgraceful threads I've seen here in quite some time- quite recently. That op blaming Sanders and his campaign for one photo shopped piece of crap, was shameful. And yeah, that's exactly what you did. You refused to change the op title, you persisted in pushing bullshit
It is decidedly passive aggressive to state that you support him and then post endless crap insinuating that he doesn't really care about social justice issues or distorting what economic justice is.
I don't know why you're doing this. I don't even particularly care, but I do find it a bit... odd.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)are you kicking me out? whatever.
i did not do what you demanded of me, hence.... me bad. can you hear yourself? i had my reasons. you refuse to even consider that. whether you sonsider them or not, they are reasons. i. must. be. a. robot.
ya. that is what sanders is about. so...
yours, and your like, wont be part of my conversation in this thread. to be clear. and if that is what you and yours create, hey, i can lock with the best of them. at least half of the vocal supporters have dismissed me, women, and this conversation for three yrs now.
i am not playing this game.
yes. you.
Number23
(24,544 posts)the start of that thread that it came from the Sanders campaign (which would have surprised the hell out of me), it became pretty obvious during the thread that little nugget of numbskullery was produced right here on DU (which doesn't surprise me one freaking bit). Skinner must be dancing in his seat. 
It was apparently posted in a forum here that I have almost no interest in and probably wouldn't have seen without your OP so I'm glad that you posted it. The sentiment behind it came as no surprise to me, and I'm sure it wasn't to you either.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It's bizarre and offensive and not helping Sanders.
That is came from one of us is not exactly encouraging either.
Same as a lot of Warren supporters here seem to want to offend people who do not think Clinton is the anti- Christ. It's bizarre that they think they are doing their candidate any good, by creating a hostile atmosphere.
cali
(114,904 posts)looked responsible.
not fine to insinuate that Sanders is not strong on social justice issues when his record is BETTER than Hillary's..
Not fine to claim that Sanders is "mimicking" Hillary on Citizens United when that is clearly a lie.
Not fine to claim that left wing critics like Teachout and McManus and Cassidy are just mouthpieces for the right
Bizarre that Hillary supporters are doing all this and more and think they are helping their candidate.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)About 'economic' and social issues
This distinction between "economic" and "social" issues functions as a maintenance mechanism for neo liberal ideology. By artificially separating the economic and the social, the neo liberal is allowed to examine the various social ills of capitalism without questioning the base assumption of capitalism itself.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)(pest guy canceled, now dentist, soon)
i think it is exactly the opposite.
i think one can very much shore up the economic and leave social behind.
and this has basically been my point. a big deal, especially when we do not have to and it will be inclusive.
as i say. i am thinking about it. maybe wrong. will get back to this very point.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Because we become wage slaves. To keep folks in wage slavery, rights must be quashed. The more rights are quashed, the tighter the grip becomes.
Eventually we will reach a breaking point. Sooner than later, I suspect.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Without economic justice there are no civil rights. Without economic justice, the oligarchy hold all the power. In order for the oligarchy to hold onto power, civil rights must be quashed. We have seen this repeatedly in the third world. We have seen this repeatedly in feudal societies.
Money equals power. When we the people have economic justice, we hold the political power. When the oligarchy hordes economic resources, they hold political power and the only way they can hold onto that power is by quashing voting and civil rights.
We are seeing it now. The oligarchy is taking 99% of all newly created wealth. Paralleling that are reversals of the civil rights and voting rights acts. The more control they have, the less justice we have. The richer they get, the poorer we get and the less rights we have. The two are intrinsically intertwined. You cannot separate them.
The oligarchy holds onto this power through the police state.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this argument, have missed a big piece of the argument/discussion.
they want me to explain why i am saying what i am saying.
i am saying what i am saying, because i have been reading this. i disagree. and have stated why.
if people do not know what i am responding to, then they are not seeing the whole picture.
i would like the very beginning, basics to be understood. it is why i am speaking out.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)was "It's the economy, stupid." I believed it then, and I believe it now. It seemed to work pretty well.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)supporting sanders, or being mean to him, because i state, this is how i feel the campaign is being run, recognize it is your words, and others that make me say... this is how sanders campaign is being defined.
i think that is a mistake.
i do not see that as inclusive. i think it misses the boat, and when i see it, i will say it.
when i say it, it does not mean i am being unfair to sanders.
lookie. you are saying it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That is my main problem with the idea that economic justice leads to social justice. It never has before because racism. Even the New Deal was distributed unfairly, black women got ripped off big time because many were domestic workers and got left out. Loans were unfair for blacks. Once we worked for the new deal, we got screwed and left behind. Makes no sense to make the same mistake. Social justice has to be right out in front.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)...lays the groundwork for civil rights IMHO because it takes power away from the oligarchy. Of course we have to fight for both, but until we the people get back economic power, the oligarchists will keep pushing us backwards socially. It's a big tug-o-war that they are slowly winning.
Blacks definitely got the short end of the stick when we had a fairer distribution of money from the 1950s - 1980, but they gained in civil rights because the (economic) power wasn't in the hands of the oligarchy. The oligarchists had no power to stop it.
What we are seeing now with trade deals is manufacturing jobs going overseas. This disproportionately hits inner city minority residents because most of these factory jobs are/were in big cities. The inner city poor are taking the brunt of it economically, as always, losing their factory jobs. Now they are going after social benefits like welfare and food stamps, making the poor ever poorer. They are psychopaths.
It's one huge flaming ball of clusterfuck, and I believe something really bad is going to/must happen before the pendulum swings the other way.
I think we agree in principle, but I don't think we will make many civil rights gains with the oligarchy gaining more and more power over us. At some point we will just have to wrest it back, and it ain't gonna be pretty.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)It confuses me.
cali
(114,904 posts)express themselves coherently.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Last edited Mon May 4, 2015, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)
that they cannot see that economic and social justice have been inextricably intertwined throughout history since the Industrial Revolution. Willful ignorance like that is beyond fixing.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)And we are still seeing the same performance theatre. Not a single answer to any of them. Just tossing bombs in threads and leaving. Feeling popular by causing a shitstorm. It's truly bizarre and I for one need to stop engaging.
But implying that Bernie Sanders is sexist and racist because he mentioned Scandinavia and because he is currently talking about economics so therefore he is only for "white and men" is just despicable and need vigorous pushback. Other impressionable posters took the word as gospel and so now on DU, the line is, well Scandinavians are a bunch of racist sexists. It looks very ignorant. And all started as a campaign for attention.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)but there are plenty of them out there.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)but I don't get your constant harping on Sanders' supposed "social justice" apathy. Could it be that you're just trying to stir up dissent for some reason?
cali
(114,904 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Like I said, I'm a Clinton supporter, but for the life of me I can't see how anyone thinks that Bernie Sanders dismisses social issues out of hand.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)has been proved. cui bono has been putting up threads with video of clips showing Bernie talking about women's rights, civil rights, and gay rights. But the OP never shows up in any of those threads even though cui bono has personally invited her in this thread. The OP doesn't want an honest discussion, not in the least.
