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Sat May 16, 2015, 09:30 AM

Let's stop saying bad police officers are rare. Fact is they're plentiful from coast to coast.

A regular refrain from politicians who speak on the issue of police brutality is that bad police officers, be they corrupt or brutal or racist or sexist, are rare. If by rare, we mean that it is rare for a police officer to be convicted for brutality or corruption or anything else, then yes, you are right, convictions are outrageously rare. Only about 1% of police officers who kill someone are ever convicted for misconduct of any kind, even though the evidence routinely and overwhelmingly shows that police misconduct far outpaces convictions.

I'd like to suggest three new ways for you to consider just how widespread police brutality and corruption and ugliness truly are in the United States.

1. The ugliness knows no geographical or political boundaries. It's truly nationwide.

Not including police departments that are currently being investigated, such as the Baltimore Police Department, the Justice Department currently has enforced agreements in which it was forced to intervene in widespread problems with police departments and jails and juvenile detention centers in almost every state in the country.

Often thought to be the most liberal big city in America, the San Francisco Police Department, while being investigated for corruption, was also found to have a deep and horrendous problem with racism.

The same thing happened in Ft. Lauderdale.

And in Miami.

And Ohio.

And Baton Rouge.

And New Jersey.

And Georgia.

And, of course, Ferguson.

*For millions of Americans, this issue is the most important issue in our nation. It's time we act like it."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/15/1384993/-Let-s-stop-saying-bad-police-officers-are-rare-Fact-is-they-re-plentiful-from-coast-to-coast

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Arrow 51 replies Author Time Post
Reply Let's stop saying bad police officers are rare. Fact is they're plentiful from coast to coast. (Original post)
damnedifIknow May 2015 OP
marym625 May 2015 #1
randys1 May 2015 #2
damnedifIknow May 2015 #15
RKP5637 May 2015 #3
randome May 2015 #4
jehop61 May 2015 #10
Exultant Democracy May 2015 #24
JustAnotherGen May 2015 #34
Exultant Democracy May 2015 #38
randome May 2015 #48
jehop61 May 2015 #51
randr May 2015 #5
kag May 2015 #9
Exultant Democracy May 2015 #25
Go Vols May 2015 #36
fadedrose May 2015 #6
pocoloco May 2015 #7
Dont call me Shirley May 2015 #12
99th_Monkey May 2015 #14
Dont call me Shirley May 2015 #17
Calista241 May 2015 #13
Comrade Grumpy May 2015 #23
libdem4life May 2015 #8
heaven05 May 2015 #11
99th_Monkey May 2015 #16
Fla Dem May 2015 #32
99th_Monkey May 2015 #39
Enthusiast May 2015 #18
A Simple Game May 2015 #19
Exultant Democracy May 2015 #29
A Simple Game May 2015 #50
hifiguy May 2015 #20
Exultant Democracy May 2015 #31
Jackpine Radical May 2015 #33
DirkGently May 2015 #21
Moonwalk May 2015 #22
tblue37 May 2015 #27
Exultant Democracy May 2015 #28
DirkGently May 2015 #43
Exultant Democracy May 2015 #44
DirkGently May 2015 #45
Exultant Democracy May 2015 #46
DirkGently May 2015 #49
FLPanhandle May 2015 #35
uponit7771 May 2015 #26
Fearless May 2015 #30
Iggo May 2015 #37
Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #40
Initech May 2015 #41
barbtries May 2015 #42
Orsino May 2015 #47

Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 09:32 AM

1. Don't forget the horror that is Chicago

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 09:38 AM

2. Nowhere is safe, not even San Francisco. My lawyer friend could tell you stories.

Not only is it an extremely wide spread problem, but what we have to do is start over.

Completely.

From scratch.

Which ultimately wont matter, unless we simultaneously do something about guns.

You see as long as police have them, you are not safe. As long as criminals have them, you are not safe.

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Response to randys1 (Reply #2)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:53 AM

15. Future generations must be taught differently and much better

so we may be able to finally end this type of problem. Not much help in the here and now but maybe if we can get to our youth.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 09:45 AM

3. K&R!!! n/t

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 09:47 AM

4. 'Rare' and 'plentiful' are not opposites.

 

Either way, it's clear there are far too many.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #4)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:20 AM

10. You are so correct

Generalizations present a very weak argument and exhibit lazy thinking. Police officers are as diverse as the DU Nation.

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Response to jehop61 (Reply #10)

Sat May 16, 2015, 11:51 AM

24. Wrong. Cops are outliers and not like us at all

Slightly over half of married cops beat their wives.

If you take a sample of the U.S. Population anywhere else you will never find the level of violence and inhumanity that you would find in a similar sample of cops.

Most Americans find wife beating abhorrent, most married cops beat their wives. They pulled from the bottom of the gene pool when they filled up the ranks of the boys in blue.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #24)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:21 PM

34. I've heard in NJ

Not sure of elsewhere - that they don't hire the the most intelligent people for the job. They aren't "dumb" - but they don't have curios minds.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #34)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:32 PM

38. Michael Moore did a story on this in the 90s

People who score to high on intelligence test are considered unfit for service. Dumb people are better at "following orders" it's high time that white people start fearing the cops too.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #24)

Sat May 16, 2015, 02:01 PM

48. Who is 'they'? Every one of the 30,000 police departments in the country?

 

Coordination between separate municipalities is not likely.

We still need to do something about the unnecessary violence and too-frequent murders but it's important to not ascribe something that isn't likely to be true.

As for the 1/2 of all cops beat their wives, all I can find is that abuse takes place at twice the national average. Something about this needs to be done, too, but I truly doubt half of all cops in 30,000 different municipalities just by coincidence are wife-beaters.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #48)

Sat May 16, 2015, 03:45 PM

51. they continue to generalize don't they

I know many, many good caring police officers, who did a good job of protecting us all and who went on to college, graduate school, law school, and even wrote books! One I know of had to give up his Christmas to rescue 3 abandoned children and find them shelter and help them through a very tough time. Many who helped save lives in accidents. They are human who work under tremendous pressure every day. They don't sit in front of a computer every day, they deal with all kinds of human conditions that most of us can only imagine.

If you want a better quality of policing, join up and do your part. Stop bitching and demand government provide beter, more advanced training in law, and the social sciences. Property taxes will go up, but training is important, isn't it? I'm sure all naysayers won't mind. I say again, knowing many law enforcement officers, that they are as diverse as any DUer.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 09:58 AM

5. What is rare is a good cop!

When so called good cops fear holding their brother cops accountable, they are no better.

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Response to randr (Reply #5)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:17 AM

9. That's what I thought as soon as I read the headline.

I've met one really good cop in my life. (He helped me change a tire when he really didn't have to.) All the rest I've met are either okay or horrible. And I ran up against one who was corrupt as all hell!!!!

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Response to kag (Reply #9)

Sat May 16, 2015, 11:54 AM

25. My first drug dealer in highschool was a cop

We all thought it was pretty cool at the time, but it turned out he beat his wife and son (who was in the grade above me) and molested his daughter who was my sisters age. He did always have the best pot.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #25)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:30 PM

36. Heard that all my life

Cops have the best dope.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:00 AM

6. A lot of bad cops - not ALL

are made that way by bad politicians - mayors, councilmen, etc., and the "acceptedk" if not proper, way of doing things. Then when things get screwed up, the cop gets the entire blame.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:05 AM

7. The Cato Institute provides daily updates!

 

Cato institute "Police misconduct report" funded by the Koch Foundation

http://www.policemisconduct.net/

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Response to pocoloco (Reply #7)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:30 AM

12. Police Misconduct funded by Koch Foundation

Who gave the orders to brutalize? This is an epidemic, it began somewhere.

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Response to Dont call me Shirley (Reply #12)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:51 AM

14. You need look no further than White Supremacists

 

Who have been aggressively infiltrating police bureaus and "unions" for a decade.
http://thegrio.com/2015/05/12/fbi-white-supremacists-law-enforcement/

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #14)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:56 AM

17. Led by JBSociety, no doubt.

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Response to pocoloco (Reply #7)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:32 AM

13. interesting site.

I find it interesting the Koch's might fund something like that.

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #13)

Sat May 16, 2015, 11:48 AM

23. Libertarians don't like oppressive states.

 

Cato has also done excellent work on SWAT raids and asset forfeiture. Publicizing the abuses. Is there a nefarious agenda there? I don't much care; they are bringing abuses to light.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:06 AM

8. IMO, there are two kinds of cops. Those who shoot to kill and those who watch and/or

 

know, making them accomplices. Often, they are interchangeable. Then there are the enablers...the Municipalities, the Courts and the Union.

One wonders why a young black male's life is never really safe (others, too just not so much).

My optimism comes with the cell phone and surveillance cameras. Still it's hard, but like the war in Vietnam...and this is surely a war...once they actually SEE these events it's hopefully getting harder to ignore. Also families have attorneys, can sometimes get on the news, and don't forget Rev. Al.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:29 AM

11. true, every word

 

Police in many cities, large and small, are armies unto themselves, answerable to no one. Period.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:54 AM

16. This article explains a lot, as to the source & origins of the bad cop epidemic

 

The FBI warned us in 2006 that White Supremacists were infiltrating
police bureaus and police "unions" ... so this explains a LOT imho.

http://thegrio.com/2015/05/12/fbi-white-supremacists-law-enforcement/

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #16)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:10 PM

32. There are also a lot of ex-military who patrolled the streets of Baghdad and Kabul.

The same tactics they used there in a war zone are the ones being used against US citizens. The police have been militarized, in training, equipment, psychology and how they deal with the public. Add to that mix guys with PTSD and white supremacists and you have a police force out of control.

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Response to Fla Dem (Reply #32)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:32 PM

39. Yes, there are several underlying causations for Cops Murdering Black Males

 

Until I saw this article, I hadn't factored this into the equation, along with Iraq Vets w/ PTSD
and rampant militarization of our police forces.

It really helped me understand why young black males were baring the brunt of out-of-control murderous police brutality. I'd bet my booties that this is a direct reflection of how much White Supremacy is playing a role in all this, albeit behind the scenes.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 10:56 AM

18. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

It's corruption from sea to shining sea.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 11:01 AM

19. Any place I have worked has had between 10% and 20% of employees

that were either incompetent, not smart enough, or just plain in the wrong job to be any good at what they do. The best place I ever worked had about 5% bad apples.

Now for the police, I believe this is a job that draws a certain type of person which sadly is the wrong type for community involvement with ordinary people, but good for dealing with truly bad people and criminals. The biggest problem is that these cops can't or don't want to see the difference. A higher number than normal of sociopaths / psychopaths are drawn to the job and you then add on the incompetent, ignorant, and unsuited you start to have a very large minority of bad cops. Add in the 20% to 30% that is the normal amount of go along to get along people and you start to break into the majority category. The go along to get along category soon increases when it is found that taking a brick out of the blue wall of silence can have serious repercussions. Very few are left that aren't bad or cover for the bad giving you a large majority of bad cops. Most of what remain just stay quiet for their own good.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #19)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:06 PM

29. Just over half of the cops who protect us beat their wives

And girlfriends. Start counting the bad cops at 50% then add in your 20-30% lazy and stupid but not evil per say.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #29)

Sat May 16, 2015, 02:06 PM

50. I did think I was being conservative with the bad cops when I wrote my post.

Your numbers are probably closer than mine.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 11:10 AM

20. It's the 85-90% of bad cops

 

that make it so tough for the 10-15% of decent ones.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #20)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:07 PM

31. Give or take 10% your spot on

The numbers only back you up.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #20)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:17 PM

33. Yeah. It's only 90% of cops

who give the rest a bad name.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 11:21 AM

21. Let's stop pretending any of it is about "bad ones" and "good ones."

Problems like these are not a function of weeding out evil people from good people, or deciding whether it's fair to paint an enormous group with one brush.

Concluding that "most" of anybody is good or bad gets us nowhere. We can't get rid of "most cops."

But we can change the culture in which they work, and the incentives and ramifications for doing the job right vs. abusing it.

These issues are group power dynamics over a large scale. The same way people who work on Wall Street don't sit around cackling about screwing the middle class, but manage to do it anyway. Regulate them correctly, and suddenly you're in Canada, where bankers don't gamble taxpayer money and break the world.

Sure, individual proclivities matter, but WE ALL are doing something wrong with the way we conceptualize law and order. We wouldn't be seeing racist or corrupt policing everywhere if we didn't allow the systems that encourage those attitudes to stay in place.

- Independent review. Neither cops nor bankers are good at "policing themselves." Places with community review boards, or at the very least, outside agency review of complaints, typically do better.

- Less militarization. We need to stop sending cops tanks and APCs and fifteen different ways to hurt people that "probably" won't kill them. You prepare constantly for war; you're going to find a war.

- Transparency and accountability. Dash cams, body cams, and better review of all of those things. Policing is a public matter. It should be done where the public can see. The crooked get scared and the tempted think twice.

- Better training and culture within departments. LAPD was infamous for its racism and bunker mentality when Daryl Gates was in charge. It looks like NYPD, Baltimore, Mississippi, and many other departments have them same thing going on. Foot patrols and community policing get cops to see residents as neighbors and friends, instead of an enemy country.

There's no getting rid of the fact that people in power will misuse it if we don't actively prevent it. You take away incentives to do it, and develop better responses for when it happens. You put a better system in place, and suddenly you don't have those barrels full of rotten apples any more.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #21)

Sat May 16, 2015, 11:31 AM

22. Bravo! That's exactly it....



It's not about whether bad cops are rare. It's about the fact that the job of cop means that those who abuse their power = something horrible. I mean, if you've got a bad waiter at a restaurant (one abusing his/her power) you typically just have a bad experience for about an hour or so: waiting for your food, getting the wrong order, and all that. You can survive that easy. But a bad cop? You can be injured, killed, raped, end up with a life sentence in jail because they've strong-armed you into confessing, etc.

This means that the fact that cops who don't abuse their power can't outweigh the cops that do--however plentiful. Because the very fact that they are in a position of power (with little to no accountability) mean that the results of dealing with them will be nightmarish and potentially life-long if not life threatening. Permanent damage to the person who has to face even one such cop as compared to temporary inconvenience from such a person in some other position.

Rare or plentiful, the essential problem is the same: the kind of power cops have, makes law enforcement into something terrifying.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #21)

Sat May 16, 2015, 11:58 AM

27. + a brazillion! nt

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #21)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:02 PM

28. Just over half of cops beat their wives, most are bad

Based on the simple logic that people who beat their wives are bad and that we can use the term most to describe a group when over half the members take part in something.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #28)

Sat May 16, 2015, 01:13 PM

43. Fishy logic, I'd say. And part of the problem here.

I can think of no reasonable way anyone could determine that "just over half of cops beat their wives," so that's a specious thing to even conclude. Half of male cops? Half of married male cops? Half of male, married cops where the domestic violence is reported? How would someone even track such a thing?

Cops as a group do have issues statistically of course. The real number, I think is that the domestic violence rate is about double in police families. Alcoholism and suicide are also high. Lawyers statistically drink, doctors and nurses are more likely drug addicts. No demographic, job, religion, or race is safe if we can all read statistics and decide who the "good" and "bad" people are. It's no different than the bigots who want us all to conclude that high rates of "black on black crime" mean a 12-yr-old should expect to be shot dead for holding a toy guy. Domestic violence, by the way, is worst of all for black women in America. Where does "simple logic" take us from there?

I think that whole line of thinking is part of the problem. It urges prejudice and hate and points to no solution.

Again, you can't get rid of "most cops." You can weed out the worst when you find them, but if you want long-term solutions, you need systemic change, not assumptions by anyone about who is "good" and "bad."

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #43)

Sat May 16, 2015, 01:23 PM

44. Well you as much as concede the point

When you accept the well established fact that domestic violence is double the normal for cops. Normal is right around 25.5% unfortunate so double just over a quarter is slightly over half, or most. Unless your using some new math.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #44)

Sat May 16, 2015, 01:38 PM

45. Whoa. No. Even worse math there, and still the logic of bigotry.

Again, even your statistical conclusions don't make basic mathematical sense. "The normal rate of 25%" (which is not the rate to begin with) doesn't mean one in four people commits domestic violence, so doubling it doesn't get you to half.

22% of American women experience domestic violence in their lifetimes. That doesn't mean a quarter of the husbands in the country beat their wives. The fact you would make such an enormous and incorrect leap just compounds the problem with this type of thinking. It's the farthest thing from "logic" there is.

More generally, you just don't ever get to draw a conclusion about people in general by statistics regarding their demographic group. Going the extra mile to extrapolate "more than half of cops" just pushes the poor reasoning of that approach a step further. Doing so would permit you to conclude that being poor also makes you bad, because crime rates are higher among them, for example.

But if that's how you got to your original premise, you were wrong to begin with as well.


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Response to DirkGently (Reply #45)

Sat May 16, 2015, 01:47 PM

46. Well the slight over 50% of women married to cops being beat

Probably feel a lot better about their lives knowing that you don't think they exist.

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Response to Exultant Democracy (Reply #46)

Sat May 16, 2015, 02:03 PM

49. Only if your unsupported number proves your illogical conclusion.


Which doesn't seem to be the case.

Neither your premise about the "more than half of cops," nor your conclusion we should all therefore believe most cops are bad people, hold up to any kind of reasonable consideration.






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Response to DirkGently (Reply #21)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:26 PM

35. I agree

There is something systemically wrong with the system.

Humans beings tend to do what their incentives reward them to do (We are just apes afterall).

Change the system, incentives, punishments, etc. and you will change the behaviors.



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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 11:58 AM

26. Make the offending LEO's pay the lion share of the settlements, bet this shit would stop overnight

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:07 PM

30. Even one is too many.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:31 PM

37. I never say that.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:38 PM

40. A lot of these guys were raised on the show "Cops"...

 

Getting in a car chase that turns into a foot pursuit that ends with them catching up to the guy and slamming him to the ground and slapping on the cuffs gives them wood.

In the South a lot of white cops think it's their JOB to make sure black people know their place.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:48 PM

41. And I think the National Rifle Asshats and our loose gun laws have a lot to do with this.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 12:57 PM

42. as far as i am concerned

if you are not arresting the bad actors and standing up for the citizens who are brutalized, you are not a good cop. you're a bad cop. even if you never drew your gun or roughed someone up for no reason, if you are a policeman and you help other policemen evade the consequences for their crimes just because you're both policemen, you're a bad apple too.

a sea change in the culture needs to occur. i don't know how we make it happen, but starting with mass terminations sounds like a start to me.

no point imo talking about the "vast majority" of policemen being good and professional. as long as they got that solid blue wall protecting murderers and scofflaws they're just all bad.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Original post)

Sat May 16, 2015, 01:49 PM

47. Bad professionals will be found anywhere we decide to starve a profession...

...and when we give them guns and a license to bully, they'll turn really, really bad.

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