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Mon May 18, 2015, 04:05 PM

Tired of Malignant Amnesia Anti-Obama Syndrome

Just months after two massive policy achievements - reopening relations with Cuba after half a century, and bringing the US and Iran close to nuclear agreement that may be the basis for long-term peace - I see (once again, as if the madness ever stopped) his entire Presidency being dismissed as a massive conspiracy intended for the delivery of a single initiative that's disagreed with.

One disagreement is all it takes to make certain people forget (or more likely deliberately ignore) every single fact of this Presidency and retreat into a hysterical anti-Obama rage fugue.

When this hatred - that's been there since Day One - isn't being fed, its key disciples sit there in bitter, simmering fury, apparently more angry when they have no excuse than when they do. But when an excuse does present itself, they spring into action with all their Tea Party-flavored talking points and unconcealed personal hate on display, and for some reason it's tolerated if the single-issue point of disagreement is significant. That is the "Trojan Horse".

This crap is why we can't have nice things on the left. If we ever see Bernie Sanders in the White House - if we can hold back the chaotic impulses of certain people long enough to even get him there - he will be accused of "betraying" us within seconds of taking the Oath of Office. The moment he stepped into the spotlight, you could already almost hear the nervous tension in certain people's commentary, desperately trying to restrain themselves from blowing up the 1 or 2 things they disagree with him about into a full-blown accusation of Manchurian Candidacy.

If you disagree with the President on trade, then disagree with the President on trade while acknowledging you're on the same team. That's how adults shape political agendas. If after all this time you still think Barack Obama's credentials as a great liberal President are in doubt, and your response to every disagreement is to call them into question, you are the problem. You have a selective memory that makes you at very least a burden to your own alleged agenda.

Does anyone remember when Barack Obama was supposedly going to destroy Social Security? See, I remember that Big Lie and all the others these people have told. I see them lie, I see them extrapolate that lie into an attack on Barack Obama's character and motives, and then I see that lie come to exactly fucking NOTHING. Every time, always. Then they forget it ever happened, and we forget how berserk they went over nothing, treating every fresh lie as if it were the first.

But they're not even the real issue, because from where I stand they're transparent. The issue is that we listen to them whenever there is disagreement with the President, or even the vague perception that a disagreement may exist. We give air to voices of malignant amnesia, treating Two Minute Hates as if they were courageously stated moral grievances.

It's like watching the parable of The Scorpion and The Frog in action. Stop falling for this bullshit, and stop letting hateful, dishonest people define progressivism for you. We are the voice of reason in the world, and the minute that turns into something else, we don't amount to much.

Issues come and go, but the strength of everything we stand for is our solidarity with each other and with the truth. Those who attack that need to be treated with strong skepticism, even as we constructively address issue differences.

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Reply Tired of Malignant Amnesia Anti-Obama Syndrome (Original post)
True Blue Door May 2015 OP
MaggieD May 2015 #1
certainot May 2015 #24
True Blue Door May 2015 #47
MaggieD May 2015 #50
morningfog May 2015 #72
MaggieD May 2015 #77
Skittles May 2015 #90
True Blue Door May 2015 #101
MaggieD May 2015 #186
Liberal_Stalwart71 May 2015 #287
Skittles May 2015 #88
True Blue Door May 2015 #102
progressoid May 2015 #160
Sobax May 2015 #182
True Blue Door May 2015 #195
treestar May 2015 #166
True Blue Door May 2015 #196
morningfog May 2015 #70
MaggieD May 2015 #74
morningfog May 2015 #103
MaggieD May 2015 #192
morningfog May 2015 #199
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YoungDemCA May 2015 #318
frylock May 2015 #327
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morningfog May 2015 #104
joshcryer May 2015 #172
Agschmid May 2015 #180
Scuba May 2015 #163
joshcryer May 2015 #171
True Blue Door May 2015 #202
treestar May 2015 #178
Lil Missy May 2015 #142
morningfog May 2015 #146
pnwmom May 2015 #162
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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:10 PM

1. Just ignore the fringe left....

 

That's what the politicians do. Can't say I blame them. I wish pols on the right would do the same with their fringe. World would be a better place.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #1)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:07 PM

24. the fringe on the right is used to enable and intimidate their

politicians and keep them in lock step.

disinforming, motivating and coordinating that fringe has been the function of rw radio the last 25 years

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #1)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:55 PM

47. I'm skeptical these people even are on the left.

They talk a lot more like Alex Jones-style paranoid Libertarian types, with almost identical fantasies and conspiracy theories.

The anti-Obama hate cultism is so extreme and compulsive, I don't think these people actually have any other agenda.

People with a real issue agenda don't act like they do. People who oppose TPP because they disagree with it don't act like this. They talk about TPP, not accuse Obama of being a Kenyan spy working for the Neptunians to pollute our precious bodily fluids.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #47)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:00 PM

50. They do -it's true

 

I've even had some, in anger, tell me "I'm not a DEMOCRAT." I'm like, no shit you're not. Why are you allowed to post here then?

Then they start the song and dance about how they don't have to be. If it were my site I'd shitcan them in a heartbeat.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #50)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:05 PM

72. Sounds like you're on a purity quest.

 

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Response to morningfog (Reply #72)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:14 PM

77. Nope

 

I just think if you have to drag down other candidates in your own party using right wing talking points that's must mean you don't have much good to say about your own. to busy on their walls of BS links and CT style screeds i guess.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #72)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:37 PM

90. that's exactly what it is

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #50)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:09 PM

101. It's fine when people who aren't Democrats honorably contribute here.

And issue criticism is valid. But when people just come here to attack and smear Democrats, act like our Party's actual achievements are inferior to their nonexistent ones, and promote paranoid conspiracy theories demonizing our elected leadership that we chose (and thus implicitly demonizing us as citizens), I draw the line there. Those people have no business here. They're just plain old trolls hostile to the purpose of the forum.

Lying propaganda and hate against Democrats are for Republican sites, and they can go sell them there, because I'm not buying.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #101)

Tue May 19, 2015, 10:17 AM

186. +100000000000

 

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #101)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:16 AM

287. There it is. Not sure why Skinner and the other mods allow it. Never seen anything like it. NEVER!

 

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #47)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:32 PM

88. OR

they talk about TPP *AND* wonder why any Democrat would openly pimp for it

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Response to Skittles (Reply #88)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:11 PM

102. "Pimp"...more loaded, personally demonizing language about people you disagree with.

You seem to think that disagreeing with you about something is a character flaw. It's a childish, puerile attitude with no positive consequences whatsoever, and it doesn't serve the issue agenda you claim to represent.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #102)

Tue May 19, 2015, 04:56 AM

160. people on the left are "Alex Jones-style paranoid Libertarian types" & "anti-Obama hate cultism"

Gee, ya think maybe those phrases are loaded or demonizing?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #160)

Tue May 19, 2015, 08:39 AM

182. +1

 

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Response to progressoid (Reply #160)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:15 PM

195. I said nothing of the sort about "people on the left."

I expressed skepticism that the people in question are on the left at all, rather than the Libertarian fringe.

Stop trying to wrap their destructive behavior in our values.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #47)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:18 AM

166. Heheh I notice a commonality of style

Maybe it is attributable to being on the fringe on either side. The conspiracies, the drama, the idea that we could have it all if only the President was far enough to our side, over reliance on the Presidency (they want a leader they can follow), certainty that most of the voters are really on the far end of our side (while mysteriously never voting that way, but that's due to the media, which is biased for the other side) - and the implication that follows that most people are sheep and think as the media directs and its so unfair our extreme side doesn't get to control these sheep.

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Response to treestar (Reply #166)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:20 PM

196. A demonstration that some people just don't work well with others.

They're more anarchist than progressive. I mean, don't get me wrong - I've known some anarchists who weren't anti-social pricks with no conscience or anchor in reality; some of them are just genuinely ethereal people who don't like rigid structures. But some folks are just against everyone and everything.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #1)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:03 PM

70. Dems can't win without "the fringe left."

 

You've advanced that point even.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #70)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:11 PM

74. They will smile and nod

 

But they don't take the fringe seriously. Remember how pissed you all were when Rahm accidentally told the truth about that?

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #74)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:14 PM

103. What truth did Rahm tell?

 

Last edited Mon May 18, 2015, 10:52 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to morningfog (Reply #103)

Tue May 19, 2015, 11:28 AM

192. When he called the fringe "fucking stupid"

 

Did you forget about that?

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #192)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:41 PM

199. Rahm did not call the fringe fucking stupid.

 

Why don't you tell us the "truth" that he told? Don't be shy.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #213)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:18 PM

214. He did not call the frunge fucking stupid. He called liberals fucking retards.

 

Do you think that was a truth?

Do you think liberals are fucking retards? Or do you think liberals are just fucking stupid? What truth did Rahm tell? Please do tell.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #214)

Wed May 20, 2015, 01:56 AM

278. I think many of us are because we are too emotional and illogical. Many of us don't do nuance.

 

We expect our politicians to be 100% perfect. We expect them to be supermen (women). We expect them to be purists. They have to be right on every single issue! I mean, every fucking issue is a liberal litmus test, and if there is ONE issue to which we are at odds, the leaders are thrown under the bus and shitted on. We tend to focus on that one issue or a set of issues where that politician fails us. You have Bernie in your avatar, but he has voted with the president on 99% of his agenda. Does that make him a traitor to liberalism? No! But we dumb liberals allow it to be.

So we will demonize, castigate, and turn our backs on this president because on some issues, he disappoints us. But on many more issues, he has never let us down.

And honestly, I think his skin color adds to that willingness to throw him under the bus quicker. Bill Clinton backed many fucked up policies and I do not recall the hate, vitriol, or demonization of that man.

I do believe that Melissa Harris Perry made an excellent point. I agree with her 100 percent!

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #278)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:10 PM

318. +1.

 

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Response to morningfog (Reply #214)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:24 PM

327. it's obvious to anyone that she thinks the left is fucking retarded

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #192)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:23 PM

326. let's not sugarcoat it. he called the left's ideas "fucking RETARDED"

and it would appear that you agree.

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Response to frylock (Reply #326)

Wed May 20, 2015, 08:01 PM

336. That was a different time

 

He says "fuck" a lot. But he wasn't talking about the left in general. He was talking about the fringe left.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #70)

Mon May 18, 2015, 09:12 PM

95. Yep.

And that clears up who is to blame for 2010 and 2014.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #95)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:17 PM

104. Not at all.

 

First, just because the left is necessary to win does not mean every loss is because of the left.

Second, it is the candidate's job to build a winning coalition. If they can't win without the left and they couldn't get the left out, they fucked themselves.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #104)

Tue May 19, 2015, 06:05 AM

172. The left assuredly voted in both elections.

Assuredly. The question is more about the activist left getting out the vote. In 2010 we did it in Colorado. In 2014, despite best efforts, it didn't happen. Midterms are the most important elections when it comes to getting out the vote. If anything the activist left should expend more effort in midterms than in the general.

Udall did not lose because he lacked a "winning coalition." The activist left was demoralized, for whatever reason or another, because the party didn't represent them, or because they just didn't care or what. Apathy. Who knows. It's just mathematically true that he lost because the other guy got more votes, despite Democratic registration being superior. (Colorado has government pushed voter registration drives which is actually why voter registration in the state is at an all time high, so it's not a matter of not having enough people to vote, we had the registrations, we simply didn't get them to go and actually vote.)

Would it be that mandatory voting existed.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #104)

Tue May 19, 2015, 08:08 AM

180. The left should get themselves out...

You think if they were concerned about republican policies they would vote. I don't even mean vote for the main candidate I just mean vote. It shouldn't take a candidate to make someone who has political principles vote, they should just be voting.

If they aren't happy with who is running make a statement and vote for who you think could do the job, but vote!

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #95)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:11 AM

163. The evidence says you're wrong. Corpo-Dems got creamed while minimum wage laws soared.

 

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Response to Scuba (Reply #163)

Tue May 19, 2015, 06:01 AM

171. Feingold and Grayson were corpo-dems?

News to me.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #171)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:54 PM

202. Everyone other than the person throwing around "corpo-dem" accusations is a corpo-dem.

That's how it works. We are all corrupt, stupid sheeple who need the firm guidance of that person and only that person. But, of course, only guidance from the sidelines, never as part of a candidacy, because they know the people can't be trusted to be persuaded by their perfect arguments into voting for them.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #95)

Tue May 19, 2015, 08:06 AM

178. Good one!

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Response to morningfog (Reply #70)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:19 PM

142. Yes they can. There's a lot more in the middle than on the left fringe in the real world.

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Response to Lil Missy (Reply #142)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:27 PM

146. We're talking about the party and issue actives.

 

These are the ones who motive and get the middle out the the polls. There is not a robust and active middle.

There may be more voters (or non-voters) who identify in the center or as independent. It takes the active left to bring them along and get them out.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #70)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:03 AM

162. True. And the fringe left can't win without the moderate left.

It's only together that they make up the majority of voters.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #70)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:19 AM

167. Of course they can

They have. What fringe left person is in office now?

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Response to treestar (Reply #167)

Tue May 19, 2015, 06:08 AM

173. I don't think you are correct.

 

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #1)

Tue May 19, 2015, 11:22 AM

189. I have been trying to tell radical leftists for years that they only marginalize themselves

And their response is that they don't care. They say their ideology is more important to them than reality.

What do you do with that?

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Response to Cary (Reply #189)

Tue May 19, 2015, 11:23 AM

190. Same here....

 

I can only assume they would rather be ignored than effective.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #190)

Tue May 19, 2015, 11:37 AM

193. Maybe. But on the other hand they insist on getting mean and nasty about it

Picking fights isn't being ignored.

I still haven't figured out how to not get sucked in.

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Response to Cary (Reply #193)

Tue May 19, 2015, 11:41 AM

194. They are ignored in real life

 

Not so much here. True enough. My beef is that they seem to have no clue how to be politically effective in real life. I've seen enough of that to last a lifetime. For instance we would never have achieved marriage equality in WA without marginalizing them. Once we got them out of the way it was pretty easy.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #194)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:35 PM

197. If the left of the left actually had the influence they believe they have...

Dennis Kucinich would have won the primary in either 2004 or 2008 and gone on to win the Presidency. He didn't, not even close.

He is now a paid analyst on Fox, usually on O'Reilly's show.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:10 PM

2. K & R. PS. Hope you have your flame-resistant undies on. n/t

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Response to FSogol (Reply #2)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:32 PM

10. I don't think it is flame sit. It is just calling attention to the fact when's person does

something we don't agree with, it seems that a Any good things that person does are ignored

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:20 PM

3. Sometimes it is hard to keep score.

Barack was just making sure he kept his bust off Mt. Rushmore can't say I blame him. LBJ had the greatest defining legislative history of any modern President and he managed to turn it into a footnote.

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Response to gordianot (Reply #3)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:12 PM

53. I doubt this will keep Obama off Rushmore, figuratively speaking.

His achievements as President are beyond staggering, especially for a President who for 3/4 of his administration has had to deal with a psychopathically hostile Congress. He rebuilt the federal government from utter ruins, and brought the country back from the brink of total economic collapse. And the small matter of being the first black President just enhances the social impact of that record.

Whether it happens or not, TPP will be a footnote, and I think most of his honorable critics on the left will retroactively admit he is among the best Presidents this country has ever had. The crypto-racists and trolls who make a sport out of demonizing him will just stew in their own juices, ignored and revealed for what they are in 20/20 hindsight when there are no more immediate excuses for how they behave.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #53)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:27 PM

113. I have been a strong supporter to now.

The trade deals break it for me.

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Response to gordianot (Reply #113)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:28 PM

114. Have you read Krugman's views about it?

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #114)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:39 PM

116. Yes and I have read many views.

I am very cautious about Warren but Obama's treatment of her is despicable. Obviously I will vote for the Democratic candidate. I will never again donate to a Presidential candidate.

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Response to gordianot (Reply #116)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:45 PM

117. What treatment? What do you mean?

I'm not closely tracking this, but all I've seen was standard disagreement.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #117)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:58 PM

127. You would have to see his wording.

The complaint from Elizabeth Warren is the secrecy. Comparing her to "another politician" is demeaning considering what passes for politician. That was cynical patronizing and arrogant not called for and like or not a slap at the base. Obama needs to take a look in the mirror for another politician.

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Response to gordianot (Reply #127)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:18 PM

141. Noting that she has her own interests is not insulting, it's a rational observation.

Just because we agree with her on the issues does not make her a saint who cannot be regarded in the context of her job. I think you're seriously overreacting because you already disagree with the President.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #141)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:56 PM

150. That was not necessary and given a person who avoids drama unnecessary.

The Republican Party has descended into quasi fascism and depends on division. I never bought the one America theme. Time and time again Republicans have proven they operate with a different set of values. The history on trade enforcement is dismal. Obviously given the secrecy surrounding TPP those who stand to benefit are not the general American electorate history indicates to me this is another effort by a politician for another ill conceived rushed trade deal. Given that those who relentlessly obstructed Obama now praise him is telling. Pragmatism has its limits one America is a fairytale. I have yet to meet one Democrat in my circle who supports TPP and they most definitely are not professional liberals.

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Response to gordianot (Reply #150)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:43 PM

200. Those are valid points for arguing against TPP, but TPP isn't the subject of this.

It certainly isn't the subject of something like "The Trojan Horse Presidency," which might as well have been written by Alex Jones.

And acting like saying that Warren has her own agenda is some sort of heinous personal attack is way beyond overwrought. On the one hand, we have heinous whacko shit like "The Trojan Horse Presidency," and on the other the President responded to criticism with (a)defense of his approach, and (b)explained that people in different positions have different political priorities.

That's not only constructive, but eminently reasonable and true.

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Response to gordianot (Reply #113)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:02 AM

279. Again, this is what's stupid about the liberal mindset. One issue erases an entire record of amazing

 

accomplishments.

This is why we lose elections.

You're dumping on the president because there's one issue above all the rest? Ridiculous!!!

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #279)

Wed May 20, 2015, 01:17 PM

297. The reason Democrats lose election they do not confront Republicans.

Fraud, cheating, hypocrisy, theft, intimidation, murder are not only tolerated but encouraged on many levels in degrees by a major political party. Obama sought a reconciliation declaring his one America he failed I do not blame him for that. Democrats represent a more benign style of governance and for that reason I will vote for them including the false hope of Obama. There is no reconciliation with those who started a war based on a lie. There is no reconciliation with those who perpetrated fraud and crashed the world economy they are still allowed to walk free and insulate themselves from justice. The oligarchs won they are also Obama's one America. We have been sold out and I am NOT delusional enough to think that was Obama's plan. Given probably another 20 years of life I am willing to pick up what crumbs I can. I fear for my Grandchildren and their third world potential as wealth redistribution and the "level playing field" goes into effect. I am also not delusional enough to think I will stop it. Maybe Obama will have the nerve of Eisenhower and tell the truth as he exits the door. I am not holding my breath.

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Response to gordianot (Reply #297)

Wed May 20, 2015, 01:42 PM

298. One major point I agree with: Democrats ran away from their president's successful record...

 

...rather than confront the Republicans and take them on. They had a lot to brag about, but instead, they run away from this president who has done more for this country than any of his predecessors in the modern era, including Bill Clinton.

Again, there's a deeper issue here that is not being addressed.

And I must state it yet again for clarity: My comments are NOT directed at anyone who is bringing forward critical analysis and thoughtful debate over policy differences they have with the president.

This is about the constant bashing, moving goal posts, never satisfied with what the president tried to get done despite Republican (and many cowardly Democratic) obstruction!

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #298)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:42 PM

311. I have been critical from time to time but by far complimentary.

I was upset over his Social Security concessions even though I will not benefit from Social Security. Thankfully Republicans were too stupid to take him up on a major win for them out of sheer arrogance. As for TPP I figure it was an almost done deal before Obama came to office. I strongly doubt any of the Presidential candidates have a clue what these trade deals really mean or what they will become. You can say I don't like it, or follow the advice of those who own you. I fall in the category I don't like it Obama probably has no choice.

Climate change is here and it is progressing as a National security matter will make terrorism look childish. Greed is not going away thankfully poverty cuts into profits. One thing I do hope goes away is ignorance in America which means the Republican Party. Holding secret meetings does not combat ignorance I am disappointed.

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Response to gordianot (Reply #311)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:27 PM

329. I actually agree with you, but again, my points are not directed at people like you and I who are

 

exercising critical thought..and who are honest and have honest disagreements over policy.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:21 PM

4. Well said!

There are those who live to condemn, live in hope something will arise where they can condemn, yet again, in full throat. It is not done to change anything of substance, it is not done to educate, it is done, by some, to foment dissension and conflict which, in turn, feeds the 'justification' of their never-ending condemnation of anything and everything.

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Response to Spazito (Reply #4)

Mon May 18, 2015, 05:52 PM

22. Never ending condemnation. Can't live wituout it. It's become pointless. n/t

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Response to freshwest (Reply #22)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:04 PM

23. Yes, it moves no one, achieves nothing...

and has become utterly predictable.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #22)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:15 PM

55. It's Orwellian, the way they treat demonizing Obama as an end in itself.

The fewer excuses they have, the more intense their hatred of him becomes, and the more ludicrous their conspiracy theories become to explain the discrepancy.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #55)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:19 PM

108. Excellent, succinct OP with it all in one piece. Thanks for writing it and the reply.

People who are out to hurt others can gain nothing of value from their actions, all they can do is create misery. Misery is easy to create.

It's the tool of the maliciously lazy.

Happiness takes work, it is the reward for a life being well lived.

Make the choice to not let others steal your hard earned joy.

Take the negative energy they fill you with and create something beautiful.


~ Anonymous

BTW,


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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:21 PM

5. Single initiative?

 

mandatory for profit health insurance, nafta on steroids, continuing the ME presence, drone murder, extending the Bush tax cuts, phasing out public schools, signing the Paul Ryan budget, more fracking, anwr drilling, offshore drilling, proposed cuts to social security, and abandoning labor. Yup, the agenda's been almost perfect.

By reading the BOG posts, I begin to get a tiny glimpse into the minds of the Limbeciles.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:13 PM

26. +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:20 PM

35. And that's the truth, I voted for him twice, but not a third time even

 

if he morphs in to a White Female, with the same Agendas .

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:32 PM

41. +1

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:56 PM

48. Yep you too can be one with the BOG.

Just drink the Kool Aid and you can forget all those things and love BO...and soon you too will claim he is the best ever president...the warm thrill of confusion, that space cadet glow.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #48)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:35 PM

115. ...

 

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Response to zeemike (Reply #48)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:59 PM

204. What the hell is "BOG"? Did Infowars get tired of their conspiracy theories about "ZOG"

and just change one letter?

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #204)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:25 PM

218. No it is like the BORG with a missing letter.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #218)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:42 PM

225. Let me guess how that happened.

Someone was banging out a delirious, fervid, Caps-Locked stream-of-unconsciousness screed accusing Barack Obama of playing a role in the Kennedy assassination as a toddler, typing at 300-wpm and causing smoke to come out of their computer due to its autocorrect being unable to keep up, and accidentally said "BOG" instead of "GOD" (as in, who they consider Obama to be the enemy of).

But because admitting error was beyond their neurological capacity, they insisted they meant exactly that, and it stuck among their peers.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #225)

Tue May 19, 2015, 04:46 PM

241. No my reference was a play on a Star Trek episode

Where the Borg was invading the universe...and they told us "We are the Borg, you will be assimilated...resistence is futle"...and you would be assimilated into their common mind.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:24 PM

56. That laundry list of grievances is utterly delusional, if not outright lying.

Obamacare was a vast set of systemic reforms that brought health coverage to millions who could not otherwise have afforded, stopped a multitude of insurance industry abuses, and brought choices to people throughout the country who had none. Lives are being saved every day as a result. And you dismiss that with some cavalier one-line smear about an aspect of it you disagree with, which even then just barely passed Congress? You're basically saying we should have kept the system we had, that's how much you hate this President.

And the rest of your list is a similarly ignorant, careless, and dishonest bunch of transparent excuses to Keep Hate Alive. You have clearly sifted years of vast reforms and tremendous progressive change for every particle of imperfection to assemble into an alternate universe straw man with no connection to reality or liberal politics.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #56)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:48 PM

312. we had a decent bill from the house

with the public option included...wether it would of brought prices down enough we will never know because

as soon as we on the extreme left (Rachel)started talking about it passing the senate using the nuclear option,we got this mandate with no price protections bill that leaves about 25 to 30 million of us screwed

but even tho i am in the screwed category (over 55 paying 3 times as much as a young person for insurance with a 12 grand a year out of pocket i could never use) i TRIED to be hopeful

i believe we lost the mid terms in 2010 because such a lousy bill was passed

i feel doc j's list is accurate...why don't you post links to dispute them?

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #312)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:00 PM

314. What bill did Congress put on the President's disk?

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #314)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:21 PM

319. the shitty one

i did not say current admin was solely responsible for the aca but for you to pretend there was no other option but to stick with the status que is untruthful too...the 60 vote threshold is a self imposed barrier ....current admin is way too bright not to have known that

and like i said even after i tried to remain hopeful....hoped he would push for fixes that included everyone



i am still hopeful that he is not the Trojan horse but more of a dbl agent...appeasing the 1% to stay alive while hopefully sneaking in lil things that can help the rest of us

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #319)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:26 PM

320. Not "self-imposed" by the President.

You are just plain scapegoating for the state of politics. The President did everything a President can and should to get the most progressive bill we can and should, the Obamacare was a massive step forward.

If you don't like it, take it up with the Congress that created it. Moreover, take it up with yourself for electing that Congress and then failing to stop an even worse one from being elected later. But if you wanted him to veto it so we still had the status quo healthcare system, that's not a liberal position.

Anyone who would even imply something like "Trojan Horse" is making themselves sound like exactly that - like an anti-Demotic, illiberal troll full of contempt for progress-makers, uninterested in real progress, and totally severed from reality.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #320)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:02 PM

323. geesh you are really inflexible

he did not do " The President did everything a President can and should to get the most progressive bill we can and should,"

so when you say should do you mean you think it is fine that those over 55 are asked to spend 30% of there income on healthcare that is good enough? hopefully you do not think it is ok that 30 million are still left out hanging

when the nuclear option was brought up he could of simply endorsed the idea,he was still wildly popular at that point plus he had Rachel leading the charge.....if he would of spent 10% of the political capital on the public option as he has on this new trade agreement life would be better

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #323)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:08 PM

324. You keep trying to dodge the facts.

The bill put before the President by Congress - that body whose composition WE determined, that has ALL Constitutional authority for shaping legislation - was a huge step forward with massive reforms helping millions of people greatly, so what is your position: Are you saying he should have vetoed that bill and threw away the clear interests of the American people, or not?

Which is it?

Should the millions whose lives have been saved or tangibly improved by it give back what they've gained? Should they crawl into their graves because your imagination tells you something else should have been done?

Shall we punish everyone who doesn't meet your standards of perfection in perpetuity because you would rather do that than take the next step forward, and the next, working with other people to actually accomplish things?

If I can point a flaw in Social Security, does that mean you'll say we should scrap it? If I can point out a flaw in Medicare, shall we take it away from the millions who need it?

I'll bet you don't apply this standard to your own work, and if you tried to apply to anyone else's who you work with in person, they would probably end up refusing to work with you for very long. This is not even perfectionism, this is idiotic hypocrisy. You deny basic facts of the structure of government to give yourself excuses for scapegoating one man.

It's so extreme, you won't even limit yourself to being hypocritical about things that are actually wrong. You attack him for his massive progressive successes. That exposes your agenda for what it really is.

You attack progressives for making progress, because their actual achievemets don't measure up to your fantasy ones that you yourself can't ever do anything about. If you want credit for electing Barack Obama, stop demonizing him, because being a part of putting him in office is pretty much the only claim you have to having had a role in improving the world.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #324)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:27 PM

328. i think i was pretty clear

he could of asked for the house bill to be brought to a vote using the nuclear option


how did you edit without it showing an edit?

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #328)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:28 PM

330. No, he couldn't. He's the President, not the Senate Majority Leader.

Were you asleep the day they talked about the US government having three branches?

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #330)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:31 PM

332. stop with the insults..it is not necessary

whipping votes for tpp is "asking"

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #332)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:41 PM

333. And he whipped votes for Obamacare.

A public option never even made it out of committee.

That was the Congress we elected, and the Congresses we failed to elect in later terms were far worse.

So either elect a Congress that will pass something better than Obamacare, or stop the endless scapegoating of a progress-making President.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #333)

Wed May 20, 2015, 07:14 PM

334. so he asked for votes for the shitty bill

while the good bill from the house including the public option he had campaigned on laid dying in senate purgatory...

at least we agree on something

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #333)

Wed May 20, 2015, 07:19 PM

335. ....

321. actually the only thing we know about turn out is what the spreadsheets tell us

and neo cons own the companies running those spreadsheets

neo cons own the companies counting the votes

overseeing our own elections is where we have failed...wether thru laziness or the desire to not buck the ptb we have failed to count our votes and i believe that is how we got into this mess since the mid 60s

current admin knew that...it is why he knew he had to win the caucus states

it is why they counted neighborhoods

http://bradblog.com/?p=9370

karenfromillinois said on 6/25/2012 @ 2:46 pm PT...

from bev's original article ...I have also posted a file with work orders and release notes which shows the Accenture software has a history of tripling votes in certain ("random" voter histories, going back to 2004. Except it is not random: Other files I have found prove it is with primarily white Republican precincts that votes are somehow being recorded twice and sometimes three times for certain voters in the voter history report. .....///tripling votes in certain primarily white republican precincts...what could possibly go wrong?
////////////////////////

as i said earlier we do not actually know what turn out is or if the legit winners are awarded the win

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:28 PM

147. Bravo

another swipe at the BOG.

By reading the BOG posts, I begin to get a tiny glimpse into the minds of the Limbeciles.


name calling says you got nothing.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:12 AM

164. Thread winner!

 

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Tue May 19, 2015, 08:08 AM

179. It took a lot of effort to interpret everything as darkly as possible

To get to that place.

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Response to treestar (Reply #179)

Tue May 19, 2015, 10:03 AM

184. not nearly as much as it does to believe that Obama is a liberal

 

Or to claim that the disappointment is due entirely to TPP.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #184)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:48 PM

201. You just said you'd rather go back to the status quo health system

where millions of people just straight up had no access than have Obamacare, treating your ideas of perfection as more important than the lives of countless others. So it's not the President's liberal credentials in question at this moment.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:46 AM

183. +1

etc.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Tue May 19, 2015, 10:14 AM

185. +1

 

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Response to Sobax (Reply #185)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:23 AM

283. So you actually never say anything, just +1 everything?

 

Building a post count are you?

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Response to giftedgirl77 (Reply #283)

Wed May 20, 2015, 08:29 AM

295. Oh, he says plenty

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #295)

Wed May 20, 2015, 10:27 AM

296. I knew there was something by another one of his +1

 

in which he/she was replying to another poster that thought it was witty to point out that part of the President's electability that he was half black.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #5)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:31 PM

308. add not prosecuting war criminals and the illegal nsa activity to your list pls

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #308)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:36 PM

309. yeah, I just riffed off the top of my head. thanks

 

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:22 PM

6. This is so well written, thank you for posting this.

I mean no matter the topic, just very well written.

I am as bewildered as you seem to be as to how President Obama can be so easily dismissed by so many here at DU.

And then you went and said this:


If we ever see Bernie Sanders in the White House - if we can hold back the chaotic impulses of certain people long enough to even get him there - he will be accused of "betraying" us within seconds of taking the Oath of Office


making it maybe the most important OP/post of the month.

Brilliant, and true.

For instance, imagine if the first thing Bernie did was focus on something like Gay marriage or civil rights of any kind, he would be attacked relentlessly.

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Response to randys1 (Reply #6)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:00 PM

49. No

 

That is wrong on so many levels!
Bernie has a record Obama didn't
Bernie would not walk into office and hire the foxes to continue the raid on the rest of us
Bernie would not be bought off by big pharma
Bernie would have shut down the hell hole in Cuba
That list goes on and on
Every time Obama does something that seems good I find him undermining it out the back door.
His carbon plan to little to late but even so out the other side of his mouth he is opening up the atlantic to drilling.
Xl pipeline the other side of his mouth let the drilling in the in the artic begin
Drill baby drill frack away with no regulations at all
TPP TIPP
Banksters get a walk
Iran has not happened. And he sure is threatening both Russia and China
Oh let's not forget that he has given us progressives the middle finger an awful lot.

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Response to tennstar (Reply #49)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:27 PM

58. Sanders would do SOMETHING that you disagree with.

And that's the moment you would decide he was the devil and had sold you a bill of goods.

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Response to tennstar (Reply #49)

Tue May 19, 2015, 08:04 AM

177. that is not grounded in reality.

Peesidents dont have the luxury of standing on the sideline and be ideologically pure like Bernie can be as a senator pushing bills who never pass. Sometimes they have to make decisions that are less than optimal because the alternative is worse.

Moreover they also dont have absolute power. Shutting down Gitmo is something Obama has wanted to do as well but was blocked by congress everytime. Things are not as simple as they appear from the outside.

So yes it is a given that whomever is president, Bernie included would have to make decisions that would displease people on the left as well as the right ( hopefully the right more often..)

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Response to tennstar (Reply #49)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:07 AM

280. You will not agree with Bernie or Liz Warren on ALL issues. And both have voted with Obama's

 

position about 98% of the time.

Most of what you have written here is nonsense. You don't even know the president's record. That much is clear.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:23 PM

7. K & R nt

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:30 PM

8. I seen it as it was shortly after the first Inauguration

we have a shitpot full of DINO's in our country who are a racist bunch of ASSHOLES, lying no good sob's if you ask me.
Its all about the color of President Obama's skin, that you can take to the bank. I called it January 21, 2009. Didn't take me long to figure this one out.



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Response to madokie (Reply #8)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:31 PM

40. I don't know about the rest of the country, but it started here during the first campaign...

I think it got quieter after the nomination, probably because of the Terms of Service, but I saw an escalation of criticism after Obama got elected (probably the first time I read he had thrown certain groups under the bus), and then immediately after his inauguration, some DUers went at him full-tilt and have not stopped since. They claim they are the only true Democrats/Liberals/Progressives, and that they are intimately acquainted with the undercarriage of large mass-transport vehicles, thanks to Obama.

Because they are the only true Democrats/Liberals/Progressives, the issues they have with the president couldn't possibly be the color of his skin, and they couldn't possibly be DINOs. As for the rest of the country, I'll have to take your word for it.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #40)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:29 AM

288. I disagree with you wholeheartedly. The hatred started in 2007 when I saw many white Democrats...

 

yes, even on Democratic Underground, spew some of the most vicious, hateful rhetoric that I only came across on Stormfront.

Some of them never got over the fact that a black man had the audacity to run against Hillary Clinton because...well...it was HER turn. And the Clintons played on that divisiveness and also subtly used deeply seated racial language and references to worsen the divide. This is one of the reasons why I have never forgiven them and will likely not support Hillary Clinton. Many black voters have never forgotten the Clintons' behavior or that of their surrogates on paraded on Faux News. Utterly disgusting.

Others just never liked Obama because he wasn't pure enough in their eyes. But neither was Hillary. And neither is ANY Democrat! I supported Kucinich, but I'm sure there were issues on which I disagreed.

The quickness with which people on the left especially abandon this president because they disagree with him on several issues, is astounding. Not only disagreeing with him, but likening him to all sorts of evil, Bush Incarnate, questioning his morals, etc. The hatred is real, and I had never seen anything like it. Definitely nothing even close to the treatment that Clinton received whenever he made a decision that liberals didn't like. I don't remember the political left demonzing him with such hate.

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Response to madokie (Reply #8)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:30 PM

59. Yes, sadly. There's a lot of crypto-racist psychology in some people's attitudes toward Obama.

The visceral and highly personalized way they attack him, and have attacked him since day one isn't something you see from people with rational issue grievances. The vitriol comes from somewhere a lot lower than their brains or their hearts.

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Response to madokie (Reply #8)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:18 PM

105. about the same time that du started exhibiting posts in favor of republican policies

 

There were no pro war duers while Bush was president. Now they're everywhere. And that is just one example. Sickening how few principles the fan club have.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #105)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:03 PM

206. The War in Afghanistan was not controversial even then.

The vast majority of the American people supported it. This country was attacked.

Most criticism with respect to Afghanistan was that Bush deliberately ignoring it and the people who attacked us in order to illegally invade Iraq.

Stop acting like the Ministry of Truth, trying to rewrite history to excuse knee-jerk anti-Obama bigotry.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #206)

Wed May 20, 2015, 01:43 AM

276. America wasn't attacked by Afghanistan

If America was attacked by any nation that nation was Saudi Arabia.

And yet...

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #276)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:06 PM

301. We were attacked by elements occupying Afghanistan

and were given permission by the UN-recognized government to intervene in their country.

Stop rewriting history.

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Response to madokie (Reply #8)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:12 AM

281. Yes! Yes! Yes! PREACH!! This president wasn't afforded a honeymoon. He couldn't even vacation with

 

his wife and family.

He was given a huge pile of shit to clean up, then do it alone with nefarious evil Republicans and lily-livered cowards in the Democratic Party who found it political disadvantageous to side with their BLACK president.

This man's race had a large part to do with the discord...and a huge reason why so many even on the left are quick to abandon him at every turn. It's not just about differences over policy, either. I don't give a damn what they say.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #281)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:05 AM

286. Exactly

only a fool can not see this for what it is, only a fool

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:31 PM

9. As a supporter of President Obama

in both his presidential campaigns. I reserve the right to complain when he does something i do not agree with. The TPP is my most recent complaint. Just got an email telling me Republicans have snuck a decrease in Medicare into this bill.
And of course, the follow up request for a donation.
One does not know what to believe but, Obama is for the TPP and my favorite senators, Sanders and Warren are against it.

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Response to tiredtoo (Reply #9)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:32 PM

60. Naturally, disagreement is healthy.

Disagreement among good people on the same team is not only healthy, but necessary.

I just think it's beyond obvious that shit like that demented "Trojan Horse" conspiracy theory post are not based on any sort of issue disagreement, and that TPP is just the latest excuse in a long line of lies and hate from the Alex Jones wing of the pseudo-left.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:40 PM

11. Hardly just a single issue- and yes, the administration did want to

 

apply the chained CPI to Social Security and make other entitlement cuts. Fortunately for us, no grand bargain could be achieved- thanks to republican intransigence.

The hysterical defensiveness in your post and the fierce personal attachment you so clearly feel toward the President, make it impossible to discuss actual issues with you and those like you.

I don't hate the President. I don't delve into his motives. I've enjoyed having him and his family in the WH. In fact, I wrote an op about that just recently.

But on issue after issue, I've parted ways with him. I don't care why he's so determined to pass this trade agreement. I care about the damage it will do.

Issues don't just come and go. Your truth and mine may be quite different as truth is highly subjective.

I don't tell people to treat this group or that with "strong suspicion" (how very Joe McCarthy of you), but I don't engage in the politics of personality- and you don't engage in the politics of policy. That's a wide gulf.

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Response to cali (Reply #11)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:16 PM

31. people such as yourself are not the phenomenon being described. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #31)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:17 AM

282. Exactly!

 

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Response to cali (Reply #11)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:49 PM

63. Wow, you're actually sticking to a lie that was discredited years ago?

You're claiming, and expect anyone to believe, that Barack Obama and the Republican Party wanted the same thing, but for reasons unknown to mankind just failed to do it, because (mumble mumble) stopped it?

Your claim is the kind of Occam's Razor-defying logical gymnastics that always happen when actual events don't agree with ideological claims. Even now, you can't just admit being wrong when the facts didn't turn out how you expected.

And calling it "hysterical defensiveness" to challenge what amounts to the most laughable anti-Obama conspiracy theory this side of Infowars...I don't even know how to address that in a way that would be respectful.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:41 PM

12. Supporter too..

I don't disagree with him much, and agree with him a lot more on things he's done that I didn't think would ever be done.

And the things I disagree with him about are things that nobody will know the outcome until the future, and it may turn out that I didn't disagree after all. So, it's not disagreement, it's more not knowing the future and he has better information than I do.

I like the man and feel that he is basically very honest, or as honest as his position allows him to be to avoid hurting feelings or starting wars with allies...

Thanks for your post.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:44 PM

13. Bookmarked.

Good points. Democrats always have to guard against being their own worst enemies.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:46 PM

14. I remember the cat food cultists...

...so @#$% sure that Obama was trying to starve nana. What a bunch of idiots.

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Response to Scurrilous (Reply #14)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:54 PM

64. It's the pseudo-left version of "He's gonna take our guns!"

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:48 PM

15. what used to be average Dems are now considered the "far left"

the reason we "cannot have nice things" is because our politicians have moved to the right and are busy sucking up to their corporate masters

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Response to Skittles (Reply #15)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:59 PM

66. It must be very convenient always blaming someone else for everything.

Don't you think we have any responsibility for that negative trajectory in our Party, like maybe some of us were more interested in finding fault than in finding solutions?

How eager would you be to work for people with that attitude? How reliable a base do people like that make?

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #66)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:24 PM

81. OMG, LOL



not EVEN worth the effort

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Response to Skittles (Reply #81)

Mon May 18, 2015, 09:59 PM

100. How convenient for you.

Not only blaming others for everything, but then dismissing an offer to explain yourself.

That's what reasonable people call being wrong.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #100)


Response to True Blue Door (Reply #66)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:42 PM

261. Blaming Nader?

The centrist Democrats are the ones who constantly blame their failures on everyone else. The way to change the negative trajectory in our party is to abandon these failures and go back to policy that works for everyone.

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Response to Mnpaul (Reply #261)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:11 PM

303. We each need to take responsibility.

If I choose to vote for Gore in 2000 (I did), and someone else chose to vote for Nader, the argument that I'm to blame for the Nader's voter's choice - that I should have gone further out of my harangue them back to reason - that I bear more responsibility than their failure to see reason at face value than they do, does not hold water.

We the voters are responsible for the outcomes of elections. We are responsible for the candidates offered to us, because we can participate in primaries. We are responsible for tolerating criminal fuckery by the GOP. We are responsible, period. We have no excuses.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #303)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:04 PM

315. gore lost in 2000 because

the votes were not counted

in a way i guess that does make us responsible...looking back we should of all been out in the streets demanding every freaking ballots in florida be hand examined for voter intent

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Response to questionseverything (Reply #315)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:08 PM

317. Absolutely. We are all responsible for everything that happens, one way or another.

That's what democracy really is - not other people giving us permission to exercise our rights, but our taking responsibility to exercise them and ensure that they be respected.

Turnout is regularly abysmal, and there's no excuse for that on our part. It's our choice to participate in primaries, and our responsibility to fight with the leaders we give ourselves in those primaries.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #317)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:42 PM

321. actually the only thing we know about turn out is what the spreadsheets tell us

and neo cons own the companies running those spreadsheets

neo cons own the companies counting the votes

overseeing our own elections is where we have failed...wether thru laziness or the desire to not buck the ptb we have failed to count our votes and i believe that is how we got into this mess since the mid 60s

current admin knew that...it is why he knew he had to win the caucus states

it is why they counted neighborhoods

http://bradblog.com/?p=9370

karenfromillinois said on 6/25/2012 @ 2:46 pm PT...

from bev's original article ...I have also posted a file with work orders and release notes which shows the Accenture software has a history of tripling votes in certain ("random" voter histories, going back to 2004. Except it is not random: Other files I have found prove it is with primarily white Republican precincts that votes are somehow being recorded twice and sometimes three times for certain voters in the voter history report. .....///tripling votes in certain primarily white republican precincts...what could possibly go wrong?
////////////////////////

as i said earlier we do not actually know what turn out is or if the legit winners are awarded the win

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 04:51 PM

16. I have seem plenty on DU even attempt to turn winning events into shit

 

...one can only wonder about the true agenda.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #16)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:01 PM

67. Attacking Obama is the objective. Issues are just the means or the obstacles.

You can practically hear some people moaning in disappointment when the President does something great. "Stop being the opposite of what I say you are, you evil monster!"

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #67)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:42 AM

285. But here's the problem, True Blue: Each and every time the president does something great...

 

it is dismissed. The goal posts are moved and they keep moving.

I hear the political left say: Well, he should have done thus and so...or, he should have done thus and so sooner...or it was because of US that he did thus and so...

The reason I believe that his race is significant--whether subconscious, unconscious or otherwise--is because his victories are often characterized as being not of his own making. This is a common thing that happens when black people are successful: they are successful because of a fluke, or because some white person helped them, or due to some other circumstance...NOT THEIR OWN intelligence or hard work. (Hillary and Bill Clinton played this race card during the primaries with their claim that MLK, Jr. only made pretty speeches but LBJ got things done; or, Jesse would not have won in SC if he were not black, etc.)

And of course, when there are disagreements on policy issues, that's fine.

I bolded that statement to make myself clear: HONEST, INTELLIGENT DISAGREEMENTS OVER POLICY DIFFERENCES ARE FINE!!!

But when one is constantly moving the goalposts, regardless of what this man does, and it's never good enough, that's when I raise my eyebrows. On the political left, this seems to be the case. Some on the left tend to pick out one or several issues. When the president fails on any one of these, they are quick to throw out his entire presidency regardless of his much larger successes, regardless of any of his accomplishments. That's why many black folks were angry at Michael Moore's comment that the president will only be known for being the First Black President. Really? None of his very long list of accomplishments--even the two that Moore's movies were about: health care and bringing bin Laden to justice--matter to him or to the left that side with him. None of that matters. He failed on one or two issues and that's it. They're throwing his entire presidency down the drain over one or two policy differences. Something is wrong here. Seems like these people are searching for reasons to hate this man; they are hungry and thirsty for reasons to demonize and shun him...and I do believe that race is a significant aspect of that behavior.

When I go back and revisit Melissa Harris Perry's controversial article exposing white liberals for their racism, I agree with her 100%. I couldn't agree with her more. It is the double standard that has always been applied to President Obama that has never been applied to any other president...and it's not just from the political right. The political left is so quick to demonize and abandon him over ANY issue to which they disagree, ignoring his larger list of accomplishments and successes. That has never been done to ANY Democratic president, no matter how horrible of a decision he made: http://www.thenation.com/article/163544/black-president-double-standard-why-white-liberals-are-abandoning-obama

I do not think Bill Clinton was treated this badly and with such disdain, hatred and disrespect from the political left. Even after all his horrible trade agreements and other bad policies that many working class Americans are suffering over today. Even after he deregulated the telecommunications industry and the banking and mortgage industries. (Well, he didn't, but he gladly went along with he Rethugs in Congress who did.) Even when he lied about Monica Lewinsky...the political left never condemned him as they do President Obama. I see this double standard play itself out with my own two eyes. And I really believe that a large part of it is due to race. Period. It may be a more unconscious form of racism, but it's racism, nevertheless. A large part of it. Not all, but a substantial part.

Disclaimer: When I refer "political left," of course I do not mean ALL on the political left. And I certainly do not mean ALL white liberals, either. The fact that I even have to type this disclaimer is sad in itself.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #285)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:04 PM

300. I agree. Some part of the ODS phenomenon is either knowing or unconscious racism.

The hatred is too visceral, too automatic, too spoken from the depths of their belly. It's too easy to imagine some of the sick screeds - even ones posted with pseudo-left rhetoric - being spoken by some guy in a stetson and mirrored sunglasses, his lips turned down in a scowl, and speaking in some cartoonish Southern drawl. The compulsion to dehumanize and diminish Obama as a person, it's plainly on display by people with intense insecurities.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #285)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:17 PM

325. +1000000000 nt

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #285)

Thu May 21, 2015, 02:42 AM

337. +1

There is most definitely white 'liberal' racism here. In some cases it's talking down to people and not listening to them. In others it could be from a desire to splinter the left and get good folks to leave.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #16)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:20 PM

143. Yep

As for their true agenda, I think it's pretty obvious. I also wonder how many of their "loyal" crowd that rec their post up are really here only to help them with that agenda, since many of them are new or very low count posters.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 05:05 PM

17. Very well said

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 05:15 PM

18. I agree

...and it is frustrating to see years of hard worked dismissed, because of a potential trade deal that Krugman and many economists consider "no big deal", or largely not so important either way. ("Free trade" has been the global standard for decades, and I'm not unduly concerned with the impacts of better enforcement of existing copyright and patent rules, and so forth).

And then to see Hillary similarly trampled on for how much money she makes..."losing the narrative" is a phrase that comes to mind, though its probably more this particular forum than the Democratic party in general.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 05:23 PM

19. Well said!

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 05:27 PM

20. I lived during six Democratic administrations

and never was it said that you need to toe the line like Obama people say we should do.
If we have legitimate complaints we not only have the right we have the DUTY to point them out! That my friend is called DEMOCRACY.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #20)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:15 PM

30. but, but, but, Hillary!

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Response to Phlem (Reply #30)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:35 PM

43. Hillary is not in elected office

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #20)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:03 PM

69. What part of "The Trojan Horse Presidency" is a legitimate issue complaint?

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #20)

Tue May 19, 2015, 08:09 AM

181. Democracy is about complaining what others are doing isn't good enough?

I thought it was about self governance, and with the other people in the country.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 05:50 PM

21. Wow, thanks for this. Yes, we can do better. n/t

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:08 PM

25. Well, um, Obama did offer and try to cut Social Security . .

 

"Does anyone remember when Barack Obama was supposedly going to destroy Social Security?"

From NPR -

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2013/04/11/176937604/on-message-who-wants-to-cut-social-security

It was the Republicans who saved us from those cuts.

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Response to FairWinds (Reply #25)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:17 PM

33. do you really think if Obama WANTED to cut Social Security he and the Republicans wouldn't have

 

worked something out?

Wanting something and being too willing to do it are different things.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #33)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:09 PM

52. No, not really since Bush's privatization scam failed and he had a majority.

Just because a President proposes something doesn't mean it comes to pass and it was a fucking stupid proposal politically as well, all it served to do was muddy the waters and cause us to lose our relative strength on the issue and probably contributed mightily to the 2010 debacle.

You have also conveniently forgotten his aggressive posture on austerity in general. Every fucking time one committee or "gang" failed he resuscitated the effort. When the TeaPubliKlan cosponsors fell off the original binding deal he formed another one then it was the catfood commision, then a couple of gangs, and the trigger, and the sequester.

Forgotten all about "eat your peas", huh?

Not only did he propose it but it fit into a pattern of behavior no matter what rationalizing and spinning you do to pretend it didn't happen despite being in his own budget.

No, you are not absolved of shitty ideas as long as they don't actually happen.

I don't read minds but I can read a proposal. It is was very much there.

There are four fucking lights no matter how many you try to coerce, cajole, threaten, or torture there are four lights, Gul Madred!

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #52)

Mon May 18, 2015, 09:37 PM

97. You are misinformed on Obama's stance on austerity.

 

He has fought to resist deflationary spending cuts.

You're falling for his sleight-of-hand, ironically enough. He's trying to trick people into thinking he is a deficit hawk--that's what the commissions, the line in his budget that will never become law.

He's a deficit peacock.

The actual austerity fans recognize this:

http://www.cato.org/blog/obama-deficit-peacock

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #97)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:26 PM

258. Who did he pick to head up his Budget Commission?

No austerity under here

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #97)

Wed May 20, 2015, 07:33 AM

293. That foolish tactic is on him then according to your rationalization as it was worthless to

move the intended audience and "tricked" the people that are supposed to be on the wink and nod end and actually damaged the Democratic party on trust on the issue generally.

I don't care what the ever wrong crowd thinks, I'm not about to call my own eyes liars.

To accuse people of lying because you can spin up a more favorable rationalization for hard facts is dishonest as fuck, reprehensible, and odious.

Doubly so when the only real "evidence" touted is "See! It didn't happen" when we just saw a President on the other side with his party in the majority fail on his own scheme which means by that same tenors logic that Bush was also heroically but shrewdly working to preserve Social Security because if he actually wanted to he would have with those cards in hand, right?

This explanation doesn't make sense to me at all and even if I could swallow it, the whole thing was Mayberry Machivellian nonsense strategy that only resulted in mudding the waters on a key issue which is probably even worse than just being wrong on austerity because you can't fix stupid.

Yes I said stupid which makes it very hard for me to buy. A series of stunts over a number of years to trick the TeaPubliKlans into *something* that nary a one fell for but many other did and even as the truth of the practical workings of the application were more than clear he kept on pushing?
How does one believe any such fairy tale?

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #293)

Wed May 20, 2015, 08:26 AM

294. It's quite simple: if the president really wanted austerity and social security cuts, they would

 

have come a lot closer to passing congress than it did.

He did make a truly awful, terrible grand bargain offer to John Boehner when he allowed the debt ceiling to be weaponized.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #294)

Thu May 21, 2015, 06:55 AM

339. No, it's not Presidents have wanted all kinds of shit and failed to get it.

Are you contending Bush really didn't want to privatize Social Security? He had a Republican Congress so clearly he was playing hyper dimensional chess to protect the program according to this self justifying "logic".

Obama tried and tried and tried and tried and tried again and eventually hammered and connived until as you say he got a partial loaf of austerity.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #339)

Thu May 21, 2015, 07:24 AM

341. Obama wanted a grand bargain where he was too willing

 

to make concessions. But he gave up on that after 2011.

You are confusing possible concessions with goals.

He and the Republicans both want the TPP and that's why it's getting votes and being debated.

That dynamic was obviously not present wrt SS.

Also, Bush actively lobbied for SS privatization--Obama didn't.

Google Obama Merkel austerity for some perspective.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #341)

Thu May 21, 2015, 06:02 PM

343. I was there through the whole chain of events. You may want a more charitable interpretation of even

but that flat out wasn't what I observed over several years. He backed off because he had failed over and over and over again, because he had to politically because had to run again.

I've got the facts and the opposing rationalization is spin that seeks to supercede history in a semi Orwellian fashion.

You cannot in good faith say your spin makes me a liar because I'm not inclined to buy it and stick with what are actual and undisputed facts.

I'm not even saying the creative speculation can't be true, but calling people LIARS for stating undisputable history is taking your faith at least one toke over the line.

If you guys can't back off to the point where you accept that reasonable minds might interpret the austerity efforts differently and admit (as you seem to be) that the shit actually happened even if we differ on the why then I have to say you folks aren't actually even interested in an honest debate.

Further, even if I grant the creative speculation, it doesn't mean the tactic wasn't at best woefully ineffective and pointless at best and I say harmful because it muddied the waters badly on the issue and put a dent in the party's chances in 2010.
You do realize we went underwater on "which party do you trust on Social Security", right?

You admit the gambit didn't move the hardcore austerity heads so I don't know why it is necessary to pretend that this multi year effort beginning when we controlled both houses was some stroke of brilliance or that the simplest explanation (and surely wasn't a display of delusional thinking) for it was that it was what it was?

Best case scenario is a too clever by half event.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #343)

Thu May 21, 2015, 06:11 PM

344. I am not calling you a liar, disagreeing with your interpretation of events

 

The 2011 attempt to reach a grand bargain was a complete debacle, and in my mind easily the worst moment of his presidency.

Not coincidentally, his thinking/rationalization for pursuing a grand bargain was much the same as it is for the TPP--that it's bound to happen, so we should get in early and adopt the best terms possible.

That said, I do not think he WANTED to cut Social Security, rather he thought it was eating peas--something we had to do to reach an agreement with Republicans.

2011 finally cured him of that nonsense, and made him realize there is no negotiating with them, so it makes no sense to negotiate against himself.

That is my take--that at the end of the day if he really wanted a SS cut, he could have gotten it.



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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #344)

Fri May 22, 2015, 09:51 AM

345. I can respect that but the OP is calling liars and that sentiment is being endorsed without

correction so when one chips in they can be seen as buying in

I fully grant interpretations of events may differ, my problem is when we pretend that the events didn't exist and question the veracity of the people who dare to acknowledge history and say they don't agree with your interpretation.

Logic requires that if one is purposely creating an impression that it is then going to be irrational to be upset that people believe the impression that was cultivated.

Why am I an asshole for believing what you know happened?

I honestly think folks are rationalizing here because in a nuts and bolts way the whole argument really doesn't make sense. Serious and consistent effort was put into an austerity program. He was supportive of the deal to have a binding committee and when the Republican sponsors for the binding austerity dropped because they knew they were pissing into the wind, he comes back with a nonbinding one, then it was the Catfood Commission and he appoints not only the odious Simpson but anti Social Security Democratic asshole Bowles, then we had the "gangs", then it was "the trigger" which predictably as fuck led to the sequester and thank God for Occupy and an election where nobody was going to do much else that stupid.

Then we see the many Rubinite and corporate hack appointments and it makes damn hard for me to buy this 3D chess stuff especially when nobody can actually articulate what it was even possible to gain that would be worth the cost.

It didn't happen because the votes weren't there just like none of the rest of the bullshit didn't have the votes.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #345)

Fri May 22, 2015, 10:00 AM

346. Republicans wanted austerity, and they wanted it badly.

 

They were pissed at Ben Bernanke because he didn't allow the economy to implode--they wanted a "Mellon-esque liquidation" of the entire economy.

Recalling that the Paul Ryan budget is what they want.

Obama was too keen to negotiate with them and make horrible concessions. But in the end it was negotiating with a brick wall.

So, we are very lucky they were so stupid. Obama was ready to give away the farm in 2011 to Boehner.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #33)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:39 AM

289. Notice how the poster praised the Republicans and gave them credit for stopping the big, bad Obama!

 

These people are unreal. And unreasonable!

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Response to FairWinds (Reply #25)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:07 PM

73. So not only are you blaming Obama for something that never happened

but praising Republicans as the saviors of Social Security. And you're saying this on a liberal website.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #73)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:21 PM

80. Willfully and woefully ignorant.

 

Not an attractive combination.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #80)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:33 PM

89. more and more common around here

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #80)

Mon May 18, 2015, 09:57 PM

99. It's a statement of facts.

If you have a problem with the facts, if you feel there's context that makes them mean something other than they appear, you're welcome to offer an explanation.

But just straight-up denial of history will not play. Not here, and not with me.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #99)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:37 PM

224. "Obama Demanded Social Security Cuts--Not GOP"

[div class="excerpt"Rep. Conyers: Obama Demanded Social Security Cuts--Not GOP


"We've got to educate the American people at the same time we educate the President of the United States. The Republicans, Speaker Boehner or Majority Leader Cantor DID NOT call for Social Security cuts in the budget deal. THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CALLED FOR THAT," declared US Representative John Conyers in a press conference held by members of the House "Out of Poverty' Caucus on 07/27/11."

Conyers added ""My response to him (President Obama) is TO MASS THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE TO PROTEST THIS."

Obama Demanded Social Security Cuts--Not GOP

This declaration is significant both politically and morally as Conyers is not only the second most senior representative in the House, but was also the first member of Congress to endorse candidate Obama. Conyers doesn't merely draw a moral "line in the sand' but he presents a candid picture of violent contrasts between himself and the first African-American president.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Rep-Conyers-Obama-Demand-by-Jeanine-Molloff-110729-352.html




....but lets not let the facts get in the way of the Hippie Punching.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #224)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:45 PM

226. And once again, what came of it?

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #226)

Tue May 19, 2015, 03:25 PM

235. *crickets*

DEMANDED, even.

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #235)

Tue May 19, 2015, 03:30 PM

236. Yup. Obama is simultaneously omnipotent and impotent to the Anti-Everything Brigade.

His desire to destroy progressives is infinite, and yet his ability to do so is so completely inept that he actually does the opposite. And that fact is the deepest proof of all that he is sinister.

The longer I think about it, the more I wonder if "The Trojan Horse Presidency" wasn't some kind of satirical take-down of this sort of paranoia.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #80)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:20 PM

144. It's a rationalization to accept something they normally wouldn't under a

Republican President.

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Response to neverforget (Reply #144)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:24 AM

153. I agree. A defense mechanism. nt

 

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Response to FairWinds (Reply #25)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:10 PM

302. As funny as claiming he admits to being an actual Republican!

 

Lol, you guys are too much!

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:14 PM

27. Some of us are sick of malignant Pro-Obama Syndrome,

 

whereby he can do some truly horrific shit - like bomb Libya back into the stone age, condemning its citizens to years of misery to come, based upon trumped-up reports of 'genocide' - and nobody bats an eyelash.

Things like the NDAA, TPP, criminalization of investigative journalism, war on whistleblowers, drone execution without due process, etc., etc., etc....

I give him credit for the good things he does - like opening relations with Cuba and, especially, negotiations with Iran - but on the whole there are few things to applaud and many to criticize.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #27)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:18 PM

34. We did not bomb Libya back to the stone age. Good lord.

 

Also, the NDAA authorizing the government to detain people is an urban myth. Federal courts have explicitly ruled that it doesn't create any new governmental right to detain anyone.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #27)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:11 PM

75. Your "criticisms" are wildly counterfactual and hysterically stated.

When someone criticizes lying hate cultism, and you automatically react like they're talking about you, there's not much more to say.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #27)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:13 PM

256. Yeah, you show it with your "ugly malignant ODS". Too effin' bad we support President Obama.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:14 PM

28. I guess the author of the piece

forgot about Obama's Grand Bargain. Plus see post #5.

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Response to Unknown Beatle (Reply #28)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:11 PM

76. The "Grand Bargain" that never happened?

The alleged offer to give Republicans what they wanted, that somehow never materialized even though Republicans controlled Congress?

When events prove you're wrong, just admit you're wrong. Don't cling to discredited narratives.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #76)

Mon May 18, 2015, 09:08 PM

94. It wasn't alleged, it actually happened.

Obama did offer the republicans a Grand Bargain.

Obama vs. Boehner: Who Killed the Debt Deal?

The Debt Deal was the Grand Bargain.

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Response to Unknown Beatle (Reply #94)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:19 PM

107. And then it didn't happen. Interesting how that works.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #107)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:46 PM

119. The point is not that it didn't happen,

it's that he put it on the table to begin with.

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Response to Unknown Beatle (Reply #119)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:56 PM

125. "The table" is not some magical thing.

And if he had any intention of going through with it, budget negotiations wouldn't even have been necessary - he and they could have agreed on it as separate legislation and passed it in a heartbeat.

Read up on some of the things Abraham Lincoln put on the table to avoid the Civil War. Shall we demolish the Lincoln Memorial and take him off the $5 bill because of it?

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #125)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:14 AM

154. Itís one thing for a Democratic president to embrace painful cuts

in Medicare and Social Security benefits, or for a Republican speaker to contemplate raising taxes, if they can ultimately claim that theyíve joined together to make the hard decisions necessary for the country; itís quite another thing to shatter the trust of your most ideological allies and come away with nothing to show for it. Obama and Boehner have clung to their separate realities not just because itís useful to blame each other for the political dysfunction in Washington, but because neither wants to talk about just how far he was willing to go.

From the link I provided above.

No, the table is not some magical thing, but Obama's intention was to cut social services if met halfway and for you to say he was not going to do it, see the TPP and TTIP.

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Response to Unknown Beatle (Reply #154)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:10 PM

209. Reality is what happens, not what someone imaged might have happened.

This is a reality-based Presidency.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #76)

Mon May 18, 2015, 09:51 PM

98. "When events prove you're wrong, just admit you're wrong.

Don't cling to discredited narratives." Yep, so true. When does the admitting start.

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Response to Unknown Beatle (Reply #98)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:20 PM

109. Certain people can start by admitting they've never been right about this President once.

I remember early in his administration they were accusing him of planning to invade Iran. Then he did the exact opposite of that, and suddenly forgot they ever said it.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:15 PM

29. clickbait left-trolls have learned from their rightwing counterparts as to which kinds of anti-Obama

 

hate screeds draw the biggest response.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #29)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:22 PM

36. Absolutely! nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #29)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:14 PM

78. I'm not sure there was ever a distinction between the two.

The only differences seem to be the nouns in their anti-Obama screeds.

"Obummer's comin' for our guns/Social Security! He's a Kenyan Muslim / centrist Third Wayer come to pollute our precious bodily fluids!"

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:17 PM

32. !



So the TPP is all that and a bag a chips huh.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:26 PM

37. then he should stop shilling for a terrible TPP

I could say something about how he's repeatedly tried to gut SS and Medicare and how his moves towards Cuba were matched by threats against Venezuela and relentless brutalization of Honduras, and that any insistence that he's a great liberal president is Tonton Macoute-level isolation from reality, or how constantly lying and making things up and then forgetting it like nothing's happened has in fact been your side's own MO for years on end, that your idea of "true progressive" means a policy that most Pubs are supporting and that's seeking a handful of Dems to sell out the country, but I think the most conclusive rebuttal I can make is that he'll never return an iota of the love and dedication you show him (at least until January 2017 rolls around, then he's fair game): he's already married

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Response to MisterP (Reply #37)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:16 PM

79. "Shilling"? That is such loaded, personal-demonizing horseshit.

You can't even talk about a disagreement without loading up your language with attack propaganda, characterizing him as some corrupt conspirator rather than someone with a plan you disagree with.

Advocating something you disagree with is just that - advocating something you disagree with. The fact that you're not on board does not make him corrupt.

The fact that you can't handle that disagreement, and compulsively interpret it as him being a bad person or even conspiring to deliberately harm the country is intellectually and ethically corrupt, however. It's delusional and hateful, and not how people who can handle working with others to achieve positive change behave.

The rest of what you're talking about is just more examples of regurgitating mischaracterized factoids to justify an attitude of personalized hate and hostility that no amount of facts will apparently change.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #79)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:59 PM

152. Despite your overloaded hyperbole, it's still shilling for TPP.

 

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #152)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:12 PM

210. It's advocating for TPP. An opinion is not corrupt just because you don't share it.

There's a word for seeing yourself as the standard of moral perfection by which others are to be judged.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #210)

Tue May 19, 2015, 02:34 PM

231. The irony of your statement is rich

 

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #231)

Tue May 19, 2015, 03:15 PM

232. There is no irony in it. It's straightforward truth.

You're accusing the President of being a corrupt liar for taking a position you disagree with.

You don't even admit the possibility of decent, honorable human beings not being 100% in agreement with you.

Like I said, there's a word for that kind of attitude. And that word is not "principle".

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #232)

Tue May 19, 2015, 04:17 PM

238. LOL...Coming from you that's priceless.

 

I am enjoying your weaving all sort of things from things I haven't said.

Project much?

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #238)

Tue May 19, 2015, 04:24 PM

239. The truth is always priceless.

And the self-righteous invectives of people incapable of working productively with others without flying off into deranged conspiracy theories whenever there's a disagreement are always useless.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #239)

Tue May 19, 2015, 04:45 PM

240. Lol...cognitive dissonance anyone?

 

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #240)

Tue May 19, 2015, 04:54 PM

242. How many times do you plan to repeat "I know you are, but what am I"?

You and that other guy called the President a shill because you disagree with him. Just take responsibility already, for fuck's sake.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #242)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:09 PM

243. Again Projecting much?

 

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #243)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:33 PM

247. And again you say "I know you are, but what am I?"

Take responsibility for your own statements, for fuck's sake.

You attacked the President's moral character because you disagree with him.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #247)

Tue May 19, 2015, 06:59 PM

251. See 243

 

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:28 PM

38. Yes! Tired of yet another version of "The Boy Who Cried Trojan Horse" -- stupid and boring. nt

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Response to betsuni (Reply #38)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:25 PM

82. To some people, winning elections is proof that someone is corrupt.

Some people think the only genuine progressives are those who fail. Which is why failure as a party and a movement is all they ever promote, and the farther one gets from failure, the more they hate them.

I swear, if Barack Obama had managed to give us single-payer healthcare, those people would have been in the streets burning him in effigy because line 75,278,111 of the legislation included a $5 co-pay for liposuction. They would have called it the "Rob the Poor health plan," and equated him with Dick Cheney and Marie Antoinette.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #82)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:47 AM

290. You have been brilliant throughout this entire thread, beginning with your amazing, insightful OP!

 

BRAVO!!!!!!!!

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:31 PM

39. Very well said. nt

 

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:34 PM

42. KnR

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:45 PM

44. How is it a lie when chained CPI was his own proposal? We're we lying when we said Bush was trying

to privatize Social Security because he failed to get it through.

How the fuck can acknowledging and reacting to the President's own initiative be a lie?

I think people that would make such a statement are pretty astoundingly dishonest because in actual reality the evidence is incontrovertible.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #44)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:45 PM

62. +1000000000

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #44)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:27 PM

85. Because all evidence points to it having been a mere negotiating tactic.

Rational people at the time said as much, and said "Look guys, this will not happen. Take it easy." And it didn't. But some people still cling to the conspiracy theory.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #85)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:43 PM

91. You have the theory and are trying to supercede the documented facts in favor of it.

It not happening is not evidence at all.

When you have like a half dozen bites at the austerity apple that ends at the sequester and propose with no demands to do so from anybody the cut then don't be surprised or act hurt when the audience thinks you are doing what you did in plain sight.

Negotiating tactic to what possible end? The most consistent reasoning at the time was to prove how reasonable he is followed by the convoluted nonsense of taking it off the table where it wasn't and couldn't possibly be unless Democrats allowed it to be because the TeaPubliKlans hated him so bad both rationales are pointless and stupid as fuck so not only is their no evidence much less a preponderance against but there is no coherent logic.

Rational does not mean delusional spinning and/or religious like faith.

"Negotiating tactic" is maybe worse than being a soulless asshole of a granny starver because it is dumb and over the long haul plays right into the former group's grubby fucking mitts.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #91)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:18 PM

106. That is quite the verbal diarrhea.

And quite the convoluted attempt to dismiss the simple fact of history that it didn't happen, that defenders of the President said it wouldn't happen, and that there is no reason it wouldn't have if the purveyors of character assassination had been correct that he and the Republicans both wanted it.

Just...admit...you...were...wrong. I know for some people it's a sacrilege, admitting their own fallibility, but at a certain point it's necessary to maintain even the slightest semblance of credibility.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #106)

Wed May 20, 2015, 06:48 AM

292. Bush was really protecting Social Security then and wanted to prevent privatization, huh?

Bush had a Republican majority and his effort failed so by your "logic" he was making an even greater effort to preserve the program, right?

Again, a President not passing an initiative is not supporting evidence of not wanting what they propose.

Your spin and theorizing to avoid accepting incontrovertible facts is flat out ridiculous.

Wrong? Wrong about what, several austerity efforts including offering the chained CPI in his own budget? Delusional crazy talk in an effort to rationalize concrete fact.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #292)

Wed May 20, 2015, 01:56 PM

299. What Bush proposed and Obama "put on the table" are not the same thing.

Nor was Bush negotiating with a hostile party to avoid a budget collapse when he suggested it.

And I'm not engaging in theorizing. I am flat out stating that there was no intention to change Social Security on Obama's part, which is what I stated at the time, and which is what happened. I am flat out stating that the weight of evidence and outcomes indicates it was a negotiating tactic. Sometimes I get tired of being right, it happens so damned often. But when I'm wrong, at least have the self-respect to admit it.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #299)

Thu May 21, 2015, 07:11 AM

340. I didn't ever say it was the same proposal. Never not once. If you are so prescient you wouldn't

need to fabricate and invent theories to avoid acknowledging incontrovertible fact to end around cognitive dissonance but at least you've moved on to accepting that the statement of fact is not it's self a lie as previously asserted and are now just relying on your creative speculation to justify actual undeniable concrete actions.

Your spin doesn't supercede facts.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:48 PM

45. Really?

We are the voice of reason in the world

How so?

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Response to polly7 (Reply #45)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:28 PM

86. You don't consider progressives the voice of reason in the world?

I do. But you're welcome to disagree. Because progressives understand the value of disagreement among friends and colleagues.

Progressives do.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #86)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:31 PM

87. Apologies ..... I read too quickly (my bad habit). nt.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 06:54 PM

46. Attraction requires withdrawal to reflect

 

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:04 PM

51. I lulz'd

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:13 PM

54. Oh, I do treat it with strong skepticism.

At the same time, I try and listen to some of it because some of the left's thinking is rooted in strong scholarship and deep moral concerns. For example, we do have enough in this country to take care of those who are in need of adequate food and adequate health care. I feel the dynamic between the centrist or liberal wing of the party and the leftists is quite interesting.

Yes, if it's too shrill one way or the other, I tend to ignore the poster. I look at it as crying wolf, and it diminishes their criticisms. But I do see it from different sides of the spectrum among the left. Within this thread alone, there's people attacking you for what you say, essentially arguing that President Obama is just one big corporate shill. Then there's also people in this thread saying 'ignore the left' - something I find repulsive in its arrogance and simplicity and void of any rational way of viewing the people who have traditionally helped us to see how our society can become more tolerant and more just.

So I guess I'm kind of integrationist, in that I want my thoughts on the matter to integrate both the desirable with the achievable. I say this as someone who is an enthusiastic supporter of President Obama and his Administration, and who feels that now that our economy is now more stabilized, feels we can and should move left in our politics to help reduce inequality, help preserve and expand civil rights, and help ensure that the beneficiaries of labor remain labor and not just capital. In this thinking I credit Occupy Wall Street for developing a consciousness of the 99% onto the minds of all of us in the democratic party. I also credit socialists like the city council woman in Seattle who brought the issue of raising the minimum wage to the forefront and built a popular movement based on that in her community, and did so by refusing a big salary and donating the remainder of her salary to unions. At the same time, I credit President Obama for working with what was available and advancing progressive initiatives like ending both wars, preserving and expanding health coverage, opening relations with Cuba, bringing Iran and the U.S. closer to an arms agreement, doing more to protect civil rights of women, lbgt, bailing out the auto industry - all with fierce opposition from Congress and idiocy from the corporate media.

I think one failure among the mainstream democrats is in failing to recognize the strong basis of the left in encouraging and promoting causes because they are right and they are just. The left is not just some whacko loonies. On nearly every single policy issue they are correct. They are ahead of their time. But everyone else eventually does catch up them because they are correct. The same cannot be said of the far right. So those comparisons of the far right to the far left are utter baloney.

I think one failure among the farther left is in continuing to believe that it's all up to the President to change things. It's not. It's up to each of us, individually, starting locally and working it's way up. I think another failure is those on the left who say 'don't vote.' I can never figure out if they are just ignorant of history or if they are trolling or they are just so damn arrogant that they actually are too high on their own supply. Whatever the 'reasoning', it's sheer nonsense.

One reason I respect and admire President Obama is that I believe he understands both of these ways of thinking, and can and does incorporate them every day into his agenda. I also believe both Sanders and Clinton and other strong democrats in the party do the same.

I think we can continue doing this together, without so many goddamn personal insults all the way around.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #54)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:56 PM

92. Thanks, this is a good and thoughtful post.

I agree strongly with left-wing ideas on most subjects, although I find there are a lot of counterfeit agendas - people who are mostly interested in the symbolism of the left but may be actively hostile to actually achieving anything, and hateful toward anyone who succeeds. A kind of political Munchausen syndrome, where failure is the objective because grievances are cherished as moral assets rather than problems to solve.

Listening to some of the mind-numbingly careless, cherry-picked, unintelligent dismissals of complex policy questions just makes clear some people aren't criticizing Obama's policies, they're attacking him for advancing their agenda more in a single year of his Presidency than they have in the last thirty. And that's the benign version of it - the one that isn't drenched in so much visceral animosity that it's hard not to see some sort of racism being involved.

Criticism is meant to improve the situation, and actual critics of the President on issues understand that. But clearly some people's agenda has nothing to do with improving anything, just torturing logic and spewing lies to rationalize the hate they feel, whether they understand why they feel it or not. Some people make it abundantly clear their attacks have nothing to do with anything the President does or does not do, and that they would be engaging in them just the same - if not even more full-throatedly - if he did every single thing they asked of him, because they would say he wasn't doing it fast enough, or that he was somehow magically responsible for other people getting in the way of it.

It's the Great Santini school of politics, and it explains a lot about why the Democratic Party moved rightward. It wasn't just the money; it was that the left often punishes people for trying to please it, so usually they just stop trying. The vitriol that a 50% ideal solution gets is ten times more extreme than not even trying to have a solution at all. I for one am tired of that shit. Some people need to shit or get off the pot. Get Bernie elected, then we'll see how they treat him when they start having disagreements with him due to the inevitable fact that people know how to do their own jobs better than amateur spectators.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #54)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:23 AM

168. I agree with them on the issues

So often on DU they aren't talking about the issues but how to go about things, criticizing everyone else and complaining and name calling.

For instance I wish we could have single payer, but don't see that we had the Congress for that. For that I get accused of being a corporate shill.

Some of them are just negative. They will name call you cheerleader trying to support something. They want only to cut down. Otherwise they'd have some constructive suggestions. But it's only the President did not do enough. The OP is right about Bernie. No way can he single handedly make Congress pass single payer, so they'll be saying he didn't fight hard enough.

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Response to treestar (Reply #168)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:31 AM

169. Yup. So true.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:26 PM

57. Remember what we said about all the George W. Bush followers who

marched in lockstep and never questioned anything he did or said? DU had a field day with those people....."sheeple"" as I recall.

I twice voted for , campaigned for and donated to President Obama, but since I still care more about issues than personalities, I`ll state my disagreement with President Obama whenever I believe it is important to do so.....like in the case of his support for the TPP.

The current state of the Democratic Party is the result of too many people yes-sirring this party rightward, so that now basic old-fashioned Democratic Party values and positions are considered "leftist" or "far left"....just ask party bosses like Al From, or party golden boys like Rahm Emanuel.

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Response to democrank (Reply #57)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:25 PM

83. and they don't EVEN see the parallels

it is fucking pathetic

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Response to Skittles (Reply #83)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:36 PM

260. It's different when a Democrat does it

Could you imagine the outrage if a Republican president was promoting the TPP? We might get to see it if the TPA passes.

I remember the outrage over the government spying on us under Bush?

I remain consistent in my positions regardless of what letter the President has behind his name.

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Response to Mnpaul (Reply #260)

Tue May 19, 2015, 10:05 PM

266. see it's not just "a Democrat"

it is ONE PARTICULAR DEMOCRAT they fucking drool over - THAT is what makes it so pathetic

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Response to Skittles (Reply #266)

Tue May 19, 2015, 10:12 PM

267. Cult of Personality

Neon lights, Nobel Prize
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies
You won't have to follow me
Only you can set me free

I sell the things you need to be
I'm the smiling face on your T.V.
Oh, I'm the cult of personality

I exploit you still you love me?
I told you one and one makes three
Oh, I'm the cult of personality
Like Joseph Stalin, and Gandhi
I'm the cult of personality
The Cult of personality
The Cult of personality

spooky isn't it?

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Response to democrank (Reply #57)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:15 PM

212. We both know the difference between criticism and psychotic conspiracy theories.

Some people around here don't, and their claims to represent our principles deserve to be laughed at.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:39 PM

61. Well put.

One person summed it up to me once when I was defending the president. I think it was on the NSA, and the person informed me he was "a liberal" who "had uncompromising ideals", implying that I must therefore be on the political right.

Most of my personal friends would chuckle at that assumption, but it's an example of how some here want to write the litmus test by which all other liberals are deemed qualified. I post much less frequently these days.

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #61)

Mon May 18, 2015, 09:18 PM

96. This movement toward ideological purity on DU

Is very discouraging. Compromise is a crucial part of our political system. I see what has happened on the right is now happening on the left. This disparaging of President Obama by the pure left for his efforts to make things work does not give me much hope for our Democratic Party

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Response to redstateblues (Reply #96)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:26 AM

284. They have no choice.

Sure, they bark at democrats who don't bend over backwards and laud would-be contenders for a while, but in the end there'll just be the moderate democrat left to vote for.

I recall 2008 when Dennis Kucinich was going to go all the way according to many here. All they had to do was get him on the ballot and the country would surely swoon.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 07:55 PM

65. I don't know what the end game or strategy here

Nothing personal against Obama as it is every US president with specific enemies & good guys and Obama maintained the status quo, I don't know what is going on here. I'm taking a "wait and see" approach particularly with Iran. Obama has the one that put tougher sanctions in 2011 really going overboard (congress actually wanted to be more strict and severe). I'm just waiting and seeing before calling it "peace" it was about hurting Iran that nationalizes oil production, the economy is dependent on production. The green technology was a way to combat that. There was never a reason for why they should be treated as one of the world's worst bad guys.

But recently Jordan proposed a Houthi embargo showing how screwed up the UN Security Council is when a country like that is giving orders telling others how to behave. Senseless sanctioning the former President of Yemen and an overall embargo so senseless & cruel based on it honestly. The marginalized minority has to give up the weapons, give it all up for what take their impression? I don't know how the vote went down, only opposition came against Russia who abstained from the voting. They called for an embargo on all parties and also humanitarian pauses in the Saudi air-strikes to allow a moment for the refugees to flee the country but they didn't want to allow this.

If Obama is trying to impress me this had the direct opposite effect. Sanctions call on Houthis to give up political prisoners. How do they have them already but it is an obvious double standard because its Saudi coalition wants -- they crackdown on Shia minorities fighting back in Bahrain, Eastern Saudi Arabia, and a very ugly scale even for them right here.

The Cuba -- lifting the embargo waiting on what ends up happening with that but this was during the US using more of the hypocritical sanctions on Venezuela calling them a "national security threat". Then US & NATO and when you know NATO is involved it is obviously ulterior economic motives. I didn't even know Gaddafi was still alive because I haven't heard the name so long. Unless the US made something up, he was very quiet. Decreased poverty & illiteracy rates. Cut food prices at the start of the rebellion. He committed human rights violations no doubt the uprisings but there are so many better candidates for regime change. Oil production was nationalized since the 60s. Peace? It only depends on who peace privileges. House of Saud needed a regime change a long time ago -- the help they got -- just one of those cruel twist of fate things of epic proportions. I don't think I could script a better story of historical consequences and the sheer luck of it all.

On edit -- I have often been thinking that I hope he does turn out to be special and I will give me thoughts on what I feel is off or incorrect with the reasons given for this or that but I don't think I could take the defense of the indefensible from the "Sanders cheerleaders". I slim to none hope for the world in this is the direction we are heading with great people killed or lose to the greedy that move in.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:02 PM

68. no, just exaggerating and enamored Obots

 

Odd, I don't recall anyone claiming he was gonna "destroy" SS, just subject all the recipients to whatever damage his desire for the chained cpi might result in. Apparently that harm would be alright with you because you're blinded by love, eh?

even a lying rightwinger could tell the diff between that and the BS you're peddling.

ANd none of the material in your whine here rebuts the "Trojan Horse" idea. Personally I think it is falsified by the fact that anyone that listened to him prior to the elections shoulda known he was likely a "thirdway"/"lefty" sellout.

That's why you have no answer to the charges

The real mystery, however, is why President Obama - in his final years in office - would staple himself to such a divisive and damaging initiative. He has the opportunity to focus on infrastructure repair, an example made vivid by the recent rail calamity in Philadelphia. He could lean into pushing the ACA in Red states that still resist it. Hell, he could go wild and push for what they've done with solar power in Germany, panels right down the sides of the highways, free and open space to do all that green stuff he's been yapping about while approving oil drilling in the Arctic and the Atlantic Ocean.


other than demonization of those doing the good work of pointing his failings out.

why exactly would anyone your demonizing here wanna stand with you, eh?

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Response to stupidicus (Reply #68)

Mon May 18, 2015, 08:26 PM

84. it goes right over their heads

you're wasting your time

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Response to Skittles (Reply #84)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:23 PM

110. You're so right. Obama, Bush, Cruz, Clinton, Santorum

what's the difference?

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Response to redstateblues (Reply #110)

Tue May 19, 2015, 02:56 AM

158. that's an example right there that it went over your head

not just a little bit, but stratospheric

like I said, WASTE OF TIME

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Response to Skittles (Reply #84)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:51 PM

262. No, mainstream Democrats understand the hysterics

 

from the party's fringe quite well, including the superiority dance that crowd does about how they're the only honest, intelligent, rational principled, decent patriots alive today.

Hint: people who use phrases like "obot" are not taken seriously by adults

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 09:06 PM

93. "The fable is used to illustrate...that no change can be made in the behaviour of the fundamentally

vicious."

Not to mention the fundamentally petulant. And the fundamentally hypocritical. And the fundamentally dismissive of the thoughts, opinions and beliefs of people and groups they purport to care about the most.

Which leads to absolutely nothing but them also being the fundamentally impotent.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #93)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:26 PM

112. Well put.

Some people feel most vindicated when they are least powerful, and work diligently to avoid ever having to be tested in practice. And they regard the civic empowerment and responsibility-taking of actual progressives as a snail would regard a pile of salt.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #93)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:50 PM

122. +1

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Response to Number23 (Reply #93)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:57 PM

126. "..that no change can be made in the behaviour of the fundamentally vicious." yes, well said from T!

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Response to Number23 (Reply #93)

Tue May 19, 2015, 10:28 AM

188. +1 n/t

 

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Response to Number23 (Reply #93)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:03 PM

207. Well said, so true n/t

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Response to Spazito (Reply #207)

Tue May 19, 2015, 06:13 PM

248. Hey Spaz!



Haven't seen you in a long while. I bet you've been gone thinking you'd come back today and see a new and improved DU. One that wasn't (still) shitting all over Democrats and this president, right??

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Response to Number23 (Reply #248)

Tue May 19, 2015, 06:22 PM

250. Hey Number23!

It's been a while for sure and, yes, I was hoping sanity had returned to DU only to find a thread showcasing an article calling the President a "Trojan Horse" and another one touting the rabidly racist, climate change denying, immigrant hating, food stamp hating Jeff Sessions as a BOLD truth-teller. I thought I had seen it all but, geez, was I mistaken!


The rabbit hole keeps growing larger rather than smaller never mind disappearing!



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Response to Spazito (Reply #250)

Tue May 19, 2015, 07:12 PM

252. Oh God, I missed the Jeff Sessions post. Thank the Lord

But I've still the seen the absolute cemetery level of quietness that blankets every positive thread.

You should have seen the threads talking about the significant drop in unemployment and the president's efforts at targeting the weapons that police forces across the country are able to access. You would have thought it was a "K&R if you love Sarah Palin!1one" thread they were so freaking quiet.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #252)

Tue May 19, 2015, 07:24 PM

253. I have been noticing the deafening silence, virtually speaking whenever...

a positive thread on anything the President has done. It speaks volume by it's silence, imo.

I have also noticed an increase in the YB syndrome (yeah but syndrome) in positive threads when there is commentary by those who live to find fault with the President.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:23 PM

111. Signed on just to give you my positive endorsement!

Thanks, cuz the board is over run with (1) dreamers that think magically electing Bernie will make our lives better - that is so funny considering he is an "Independent" he has no national constituency to advance his ideas. And (2) Republican operatives who want Democrats to destroy their option for the Presidency in 2016. Regardless, he is a political "Army of One". Good luck getting a cohesive agenda passed in this Congress. There are far more #2s here than #1s.

The whole debate on who represents us in 2016 is bullshit. Only Hillary can defeat the Republican Party. I hope Bernie runs in the primaries and pushes Hiliary to the left on domestic/foreign issues, but we need to know that splittind our vote in the GE will only help the Republican Party.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #118)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:48 PM

121. What does that story have to do with this subject?

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #121)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:01 PM

129. My opinion...

When the leader of our country blithely dismisses torture in favor of looking forward (and indeed continues it at Guantanamo), then it is sending a message that things like waterboarding are acceptable.

Remember the sheer NUMBER of people in the country. Of the 250 million, some will come away with that impression.

Not saying the guy isn't nuts, but... I still believe there is a kernel of truth in it.

Basically though what I want to say is that Obama was wrong, very wrong, not to clean up the torture issue with investigations.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #129)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:16 PM

139. I agree that there should have been investigations.

On the other hand, we can't advocate political interference in the Justice Department either.

And it's also likely that no other element of our agenda would have advanced while this was going on. There would not have been Obamacare, the stimulus package would have been unlikely, it would probably been full-bore obstruction even from a Democratic Congress. Obstruction that he would no doubt have been blamed for, because that seems to be the prevailing logic - that everything he can possibly do is wrong by definition.

One thing that the President could have done, and should have done, is maybe something like a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, like in post-apartheid South Africa. I have no clue how complicated it would have been to make that happen, and what little idea I do have is staggering enough, but I would have counseled it no matter the difficulty.

Also, if we really cared about this, we should have elected Congresses willing to investigate it. As it was, we were so derelict we haven't even elected a single Democratic Congress since the 2008 sweep, let alone a progressive-led one, and we never seem to want to take responsibility for that.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #139)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:26 PM

145. Yes, you're spot on. nt

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:47 PM

120. me thinks you are exaggerating

my guess is that there are a few posters that bug you. Welcome to DU.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:51 PM

123. ODS.. at it's most malignant.. "Trojan Horse".. 200 whatevers think that's alright just like

the "fucking pos used car salesman".. It says everything about their rep on an internet board and absolutely nothing about the President.

I love being in the minority on a board filled with hysterical "Trojan Horse" pushers..

I'm with the President on caring about what people like this think..



Absolutely love it.. mahalo TBD of your OP..

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Response to Cha (Reply #123)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:03 PM

130. Hell yeah. Barack Obama is the most progressive President in generations.

He does more for our agenda in one year than people like them have done in 35 years of whining and scapegoating. What's more, they know that, and it's part of what drives their hatred.

They are not part of the Democratic Party base, or even the progressive left. They're more part of the Libertarian/anarchist fringe who gets off on paranoid conspiracy theories. And I hope the President would welcome their hatred, because I sure do.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #130)

Tue May 19, 2015, 02:19 AM

157. I love it that he's standing up to those who are so ugly and disrespectful to him.. little CT

peddlers deserve nothing.

They couldn't dream of doing what the President accomplishes..


@POTUS: In Camden today, seeing first-hand how smart policing is making the community safer while building trust.

http://theobamadiary.com/2015/05/18/the-president-and-first-ladys-day-18/

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Response to Cha (Reply #123)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:04 PM

133. Yes!

ODS.. at it's most malignant.. "Trojan Horse".. 200 whatevers think that's alright just like
the "fucking pos used car salesman".. It says everything about their rep on an internet board and absolutely nothing about the President.


Brava Cha!!!!!!!!!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #133)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:12 PM

137. I love you guys.. we have a beautiful minority!

On the board.. not in Real Life

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Response to Cha (Reply #137)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:15 PM

138. You~



Lol~

I love you guys.. we have a beautiful minority!


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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:53 PM

124. Blah blah blah

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #124)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:04 PM

131. Didn't read it, did you?

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #131)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:09 PM

135. It doesn't say anything new

Same shit, different day.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #135)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:19 PM

215. So...you didn't read it.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 10:59 PM

128. Yep, nicely captured. Flares up with a vengeance every time there's a new Benghazi

and right on cue, hmm . . .

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:04 PM

132. and we haven't even started on Obama's . .

 

education policies, which are really awful, and have now gotten so
bad as to wink at ridiculous levels of corruption among for-profit
so-called "universities."

Someone please tell me how these differ from the GOP.

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Response to FairWinds (Reply #132)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:28 PM

148. Yeah I remember when Obama started those for profit universities

Back in the 70s. I'm sure there will be a big payoff when he is out of office

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Response to redstateblues (Reply #148)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:27 AM

155. Deflection alert . .

 

The question is, as you well know, what has the
Obama administration done about that predation?

Some, I grant you, but not nearly enough.

I voted for him to lead, not to continue
horrible policies.

Veterans For Peace

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Response to FairWinds (Reply #155)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:57 PM

264. No, it's called rebuttal of the bullshit the

 

Obamahaters such as yourself peddle.

You accuse him of being complicit in corruption in that industry, while it is he that is the one putting the screws to them.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcrotty/2014/10/30/new-gainful-employment-rules-tighten-screws-on-for-profit-colleges/


http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/02/the-downfall-of-for-profit-colleges/385810/

You are not engaging in policy debates, you are willfully spreading misinformation out of malice.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #264)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:09 AM

291. Thank you, because I just can't. Are we living in an Orwellian universe? Obama is the one who went

 

after for-profit education.

Geez!!!

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Response to redstateblues (Reply #148)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:20 PM

216. His infamy goes way further back than that. He started capitalism in the 1700s.

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Response to FairWinds (Reply #132)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:53 PM

263. Obama has done more to take on the for-profit

 

education industry than any other president.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/02/the-downfall-of-for-profit-colleges/385810/

Citing that is evidence that a person is just inventing reasons --to the point of actively trying to mislead people--to bellyache about Obama because it gives them a weird gratification.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:08 PM

134. Interesting rant

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:10 PM

136. The perpetually outraged will always find something to whine about...

It's a new spin every day.



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #136)

Tue May 19, 2015, 11:25 AM

191. A new spin, but...

The same old "spinners" day, after day, after day! Makes one wonder just exactly what their agenda really is?

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:17 PM

140. The Left is too often a circular firing squad.

And we rip each other apart on the slightest "misstep". That is the one thing I really dislike about being a Leftist.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #140)

Tue May 19, 2015, 03:00 AM

159. misstep or failure to lockstep?

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Response to Skittles (Reply #159)

Tue May 19, 2015, 07:47 AM

175. "failure to lockstep" definitely. n/t

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #175)

Tue May 19, 2015, 03:55 PM

237. I was booted from the BOG for saying we Democrats do not lockstep

I kid you not

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Response to Skittles (Reply #237)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:11 PM

244. You, of all people????

Sounds like someone really does need an ass-kicking.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #244)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:13 PM

245. now I consider it an honor

I did not like Tiger Beat back in the day either

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Response to Skittles (Reply #245)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:16 PM

246. Neither did I. I did not like any of the "teen rags". n/t

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:48 PM

149. Thank you, True Blue Door.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Mon May 18, 2015, 11:59 PM

151. I see a few issues and a few different groups with different agendas.

 

Trade issues always bring out a contingent of morons who just want to watch the world burn. Their online contributions are as valuable as their contributions to Starbucks storefronts.

Moving beyond that utterly ignorable group it gets a little more complicated.

When someone begins a new relationship, any relationship, they tend to see what they want to see. That can be a new romantic relationship, a new job or a new leader. The first stage of most relationships is infatuation, in that moment you only see what you choose to see and in the world's most middling centrist a lot of people saw something else. And you internalize that something else as a promise of what's to come or you believe you can mold it into that. But relationships develop and the infatuation wears off you just might not like what was there all along.

The final problem is what the French call Industrial Fetishism, the belief that economic might is only expressed by men in hard hats and grimy overalls marching in and out of factories with towering smokestacks. Here too this can become and absolute stumbling block to any constructive discussion. If one wants to find the real unfairness in America's trading relationships it isn't in our free trade agreements. It is in the moribund WTO process. And those who have completely dug their heels in aren't really contributing an actionable alternative. Even our free trade agreement with Australia, like Canada, an equal if there ever was one was mired in the same asinine rhetoric. I cringe in anticipation of the rhetoric that will follow the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, I am sure my beloved Toulouse will be transformed into something resembling Bangladesh.

Opting out of multilateral trade regimes isn't really a good alternative, it just places US exporters at a disadvantage to their foreign competitors, at the best of times US exporters struggle with the irrational exuberance driving the US dollar, to retain a wall of tariffs on top of that their competitors are tearing down is sacrificing America's most valuable industries to the minimal benefit of it's dying ones.

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Response to Sen. Walter Sobchak (Reply #151)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:24 PM

217. Thanks, this is an interesting discussion of trade issues.

Although it wasn't my intention to take a position on TPP here, just to expose some of the nastier anti-Obama, anti-Democratic, anti-everything insanity that was using TPP as its excuse du jour.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:30 AM

156. DU rec for pissing off all the right people...nt

Sid

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:02 AM

161. Yes, even if Bernie is elected he will ibe accused of betraying us,

because there is no way he can please all progressives all the time and also get elected.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #161)

Tue May 19, 2015, 06:31 AM

174. At least someone gets it.

A few actually.

So many others are quicker than Torquemada to burn Democrats at the stake for the impurity of their beliefs.

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Response to DFW (Reply #174)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:27 PM

219. Some of it is puritanism, but a lot of it is just ordinary paranoid psychosis.

Some people are those folks who think everyone is against them, everything is a plot to destroy them, to pollute their precious bodily fluids, and it gets most intense when their rage and narcissistic bitterness has a personal target.

Obama is Emmanuel Goldstein for these people.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #161)

Tue May 19, 2015, 10:19 AM

187. well then, let's give it a try

 

Because there is no way he will cave in to the republicans like this president has

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:15 AM

165. K&R. I don't think anyone is DU understands the trade agreement

or what its effects could be. It's a whipped up internet frenzy people predisposed are falling for.

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Response to treestar (Reply #165)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:57 PM

203. That's understandable

 

Given that nobody's allowed to know what's in it. The secrecy is the problem.

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Response to Sobax (Reply #203)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:12 PM

211. It's been said they always do it this way

and then when they are done they show everyone the treaty. But nobody had an internet to stir up a frenzy about it before.

It can't pass Congress in secret, so the whole secrecy thing is a useful pot to stir up. That sounds so evil, you know, to be secretive about anything.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 05:43 AM

170. That Obama favors the Chained CPI is not a lie nor a secret

That his Catfood Commission failed to implement it does not make his support for it go away.

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Response to eridani (Reply #170)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:29 PM

220. No, that he "put it on the table" (oh, that magical table!) is not a secret or a lie.

The rest of the shit you people extrapolated from it was and still is bigoted lying you still won't let go of even in light history.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #220)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:45 PM

227. And when did he DEMAND it? I dont recall that. Hey, it was a huge error on his part

and I wish like hell he had not done it.

What I know is a GOP in the WH will not demand it, they will DO IT

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Response to NoJusticeNoPeace (Reply #227)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:47 PM

228. Yes, good point.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #220)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:06 PM

255. Democrats don't put Social Security cuts on ANY table, period n/t

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Response to eridani (Reply #170)

Tue May 19, 2015, 09:26 PM

257. "Chained CPI Was Never Going to Happen, And Now It's Still Never Going to Happen"

"In reality, the fundamentals of the situation have not changed at all. Last year, Obama was willing to adopt C-CPI in return for concessions Republicans would never, ever make. This year, Obama is still willing to adopt C-CPI in return for concessions Republicans would never, ever make. Putting the compromise in his budget was merely Obamaís way of locating the blame for the reality that Republicans in Congress will never, ever, ever strike a fiscal deal with him. The disappointed deficit scolds sitting just to Obamaís right, and the joyous progressives just to his left, are committing the same fallacy. They are mistaking a step premised on an impossibility for a semblance of reality."

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/02/chained-cpi-was-never-going-happen-and-now-its-still-never-going-happen

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Response to Cha (Reply #257)

Wed May 20, 2015, 01:17 AM

273. Anything put on the table could happen. I don't appreciate being a pawn sacrifice--

--even if the move doesn't happen.

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Response to eridani (Reply #273)

Wed May 20, 2015, 01:26 AM

274. Yeah, you just hang on to that bitter, sour fallacious grape.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 07:51 AM

176. Selling Out The 99% To Appease Corporations, Oligarchs And Banks Overrides A Thousand Good Deeds

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #176)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:31 PM

221. Insane slogan with no connection to reality.

The Goldstein-like Obama in your fervid imagination is not the President sitting in the Oval Office.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #221)

Tue May 19, 2015, 02:32 PM

230. Sometimes Truth And Reality Outweigh Dogma And Fiction

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #230)

Tue May 19, 2015, 03:17 PM

233. That's why I posted this.

Because the truth spoken once speaks louder than a million lies shrieked all day every day.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:36 PM

198. tl;dr

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 12:59 PM

205. The President's 2008 election was historic; apparently that's enough for some people. nt

 

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #205)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:33 PM

222. His entire Presidency has been historic.

No amount of bigoted deliberate amnesia and history revisionism will change this President's enormous contributions to this country.

The kind of shit that goes on here trying to erase that history behind a fusillade of hate and conspiracy theorizing is equivalent to book-burning.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #222)

Tue May 19, 2015, 02:07 PM

229. I see almost noone on DU that flat out rejects the contributions that this President has made...

 

and I agree with you that, on the whole, they are enormous.

What I do see plenty of is folks who, 7 years later, still seem so enamored with the fact that they got to cast a "historic" vote that they have zero expectations of this presidency after that. For those folks it seems like election night was not the appetizer, but the main course, and that's sad.

The 30-second act of electing a president with a slightly different skin tone should be wayyyyyyyy less a priority than steadily holding that president accountable to not just some, but ALL of the progressive principles he professed to hold as a primary and general candidate.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #229)

Tue May 19, 2015, 03:21 PM

234. Yes, but we both know the difference between that legitimate function

and trying to rewrite history with demented Tea Party-tinctured conspiracy theories like "The Trojan Horse Presidency."

Everyone whose purpose is actually to hold this President accountable and to work with him and other Democrats for a better future knows this is not talking about them.

But people who know they're driven by visceral hatred of Barack Obama, racist or otherwise, or malignant narcissist paranoia know it is talking about them, and they respond accordingly. They self-select as the subjects.

It brings them out of the woodwork to self-identify.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #229)

Tue May 19, 2015, 10:01 PM

265. You are contradicting yourself.

 

You're conceding that he has made "enormous" contributions while in office but then say his supporters don't care about policy.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #265)

Tue May 19, 2015, 10:47 PM

269. If I never said it, it can't be contradictory.

 

We better ALL be supporters of our President, it's DemocraticUnderground.

But there's a difference between "support", and fawning over and adoring a guy for his skin hue for going on 7 years, ignoring EVEN HIS OWN REQUEST to hold his feet to the fire to stick to his promises.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #269)

Tue May 19, 2015, 10:50 PM

270. Who is "adoring a guy for his skin hue?" That's a rather irresponsible accusation

 

to make.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:08 PM

208. Haven't read other responses - will do so later

But I worry for Sanders. His ardent supporters don't seem to be aware that he will most likely be facing a Republican House (for at least two House terms) and only the potential of taking back the Senate.

He knows - oh he knows. He's a VERY smart man.

But if he wins - I hope they have patience and don't drop him after one term. Those SCOTUS appointments that WILL come up are far too important to allow a one term Democratic/Liberal/Progressive President.

If he wins - I won't drop him. He's going to have as hard a row to hoe as Obama did.

And with Reid gone (much as I detest the idea of Schumer in the leadership position) the Senate lead can be very brazen - because NY won't send a Tea type to D.C. as a Senator. So he can put his neck on the line in a way that Reid couldn't do to the make up of his constituents.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #208)

Tue May 19, 2015, 01:36 PM

223. One thing is for certain: Whatever happens, the people who demonize Obama

will never blame themselves for anything, ever. They will not blame themselves if we fail to get Bernie nominated; they will not blame themselves if we fail to get him elected; they will not blame themselves if we do get him elected but fail to give him a workable Congress. They are not capable of taking responsibility for anything, and to balance that out they will entertain any conspiracy theory that preserves their sense of absolute moral perfection.

So it's an absolute certainty that if Bernie Sanders became President, we will be hearing this "Trojan History Presidency" psychopathic bullshit about him within months.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 06:21 PM

249. Damn skippy. nt

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 08:38 PM

254. AWESOME post!

One thing that always got me was the misquote of Rahm Emmanuel claiming that Rahm called far-lefters "fucking retarded". What happened was that a few far-lefters were discussing running TV ads AGAINST Democrats who were vocally against the ACA. Upon hearing this idea, Rahm said "that's fucking retarded!" He called the (dumb) idea out, NOT those who proposed it. I immediately flashed to the Repug meme that Al Gore claimed he invented the internet. He didn't. He won a Webby presented by Vint Cerf for what he claimed he did.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 10:43 PM

268. Boink.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 11:06 PM

271. It doesn't matter who the President is.

Calling ourselves "progressives" does nothing to stop the ongoing corporate control of world affairs. Solidarity loves company, even if nothing changes.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Tue May 19, 2015, 11:18 PM

272. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

 

So now I guess I am back to sick. And tired.

Obama knows about elections, he won both of his.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Wed May 20, 2015, 01:49 AM

277. I think many of them are truly racist. They continue to move the goal post. No matter what this man

 

does, it'll never be good enough. It's what we call "The Black Tax". This man has had to work 10 times harder than any other president in history---cleaning up the bullshit left by Bush II, Clinton I and II, and Bush I...way back to Reagan. The policies they put in place took decades to manifest into what we see today. Bush I, II and Clinton era policies sent jobs overseas, and look what has happened to industrial cities like Baltimore. Why is the unemployment rate among black people higher than it was before Obama took office? Had nothing to do with Obama or his policies, but yet, he's still blamed.

I believe that much of the hate, disrespect, and blame directed at this president IS due to his skin color.

No one will ever shut me up on this. I will keep saying it over and over again.

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Response to Liberal_Stalwart71 (Reply #277)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:18 PM

305. Hear hear. Moving goal posts, imaginary goal posts, mutually exclusive demands...etc.

Fauxgressives have no agenda other than hating Obama. If he personally built them mansions on the Moon staffed with Playboy bunnies, they would be floating there in their golden space suits calling him a betrayer and an enemy. Just goes to remind us, Borderline Personality Disorder is not a political agenda.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:12 PM

304. Barack Obama put Social Security on the agenda by talking about a "chained CPI"

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/DC-Decoder/2012/1218/Social-Security-reform-What-chained-CPI-proposal-by-Obama-means

And yes, the President later retreated from that position, but the fact that he even entertained it should have been a giant warning about what he would do in the name of "bipartisan compromise".

The President refused to consider legal action against the Bush Administration for Iraq War misconduct. We had to "look forward".

The President refused to investigate and prosecute for torture. More looking forward.

The President refused to prosecute the 1% who nearly ruined the economy. Again, more looking forward.

The President has been little better than Republicans regarding unions, and the rights of workers. More looking forward?

The President has continued spying on Americans, continued the war on whistleblowers, expanded war to Yemen and Libya.

Now TPP.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #304)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:22 PM

307. Moving goalposts, rewritten history, inverse logic, impossible standards, scapegoating.

You ignore the entire history of this President to cherry pick the slightest appearances of disagreements you had with him and than blow them up into full-blown conspiracies or betrayals, and it's not based on any rational assessment. You decided beforehand what your position was and then pan-sifted for excuses like a gold prospector.

Invite me to apply the standards to you that you've just applied to Barack Obama. Seriously, dare me to. It's not pleasant being targeted with bigoted amnesia-reasoning.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #307)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:40 PM

310. I wrote about certain positions that the President has actually taken.

So your complaint about rewritten history has no merit.

I did not accuse the President of complicity in starting the Iraq War, or in the economic meltdown, but he has actually continued to use drones, often killing civilians, for the proclaimed purpose of fighting terror. He has also expanded the wars to Libya and Yemen, with disastrous results in both places. Again, we are told, to fight terror.

He did take prosecution of the Bush Administration and the 1% of Wall Street thieves off the table. All in the name of looking forward.

I disagree with Democrats and Republicans over issues like NAFTA, and GATT, and the proposed TPP, and all trade agreements that free capital at the expense of the workers. And that is what all of these trade deals do, and have done.

Am I wrong to expect the Democratic Party to offer more than GOP-lite when it comes to major issues like endless war, the economy, workers' rights, transparency in government, spending priorities, and many other issues?


And I do not "ignore the entire history of this President", but I do not forget what he has actually done either.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #310)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:58 PM

313. We're clearly not going to resolve this in a short conversation.

Let's call it undecided for the moment.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #313)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:07 PM

316. Let us agree to disagree

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Wed May 20, 2015, 02:19 PM

306. internet frenzie/media has got really good at 'playing the masses'. It seems worse when people

stare at those tiny, bitty screens (cell phone) all day, live for texts & tweets and check their emails constantly.

I much prefer non-American media for American political 'news' or directly read the bills, on the gov. websites instead of reading what "the paid media" says about an issue.





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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Wed May 20, 2015, 03:59 PM

322. it's not all or nothing. We can applaud what we agree with, criticize what we don't, and try to

move him to do what we want.

That's democracy.

What you are advocating is cheerleading and blind trust.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #322)

Wed May 20, 2015, 04:30 PM

331. nearing 5000 views and only 88 recs

I'd say the majority of us agree with you........DEMOCRACY RULES!

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Response to Skittles (Reply #331)

Thu May 21, 2015, 12:29 PM

342. that's a good perspective. The corporatists can make their numbers seem bigger here than they

really are, both on this board and in reality.

The have money, and they have the system rigged in their favor, but that doesn't mean people agree with them.

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