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Mon May 25, 2015, 10:15 AM

War




My younger son sent me the above link. This is among the most important things that I have ever encountered in my life.

We watched it last week, before going to a community college to watch my youngest daughter graduate. One of her high school classmates -- he and she graduate from high school next month -- just joined the US Marines. A young man from last year’s class, who recently completed “boot camp,” had convinced him it was the best option.

These young men are fellows I watched grow up. I walk the corn fields with one’s father, looking for artifacts. I’ve bought corn from the older one’s family, at their family farm stand, a quarter-mile down the road.

My son has considered joining the military. He said that this video changed his mind.

Today, all four of my children will be here. Some other family and friends, too. We will remember the service of family and friends.

I can’t help but think of a kid who went to school with my sons and nephews. I watched him grow up, and I remember him on various sports teams, much like the two kids from my daughter’s school. He joined the service for entirely patriotic reasons. He died in Iraq. The biggest part of him that was returned for burial was one of his hands. And for what?

Fuck George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and the rest of those shitheads.

45 replies, 3304 views

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Arrow 45 replies Author Time Post
Reply War (Original post)
H2O Man May 2015 OP
Sunlei May 2015 #1
99Forever May 2015 #2
GGJohn May 2015 #3
GGJohn May 2015 #4
hootinholler May 2015 #5
davekriss May 2015 #6
spanone May 2015 #7
NYC_SKP May 2015 #8
Octafish May 2015 #9
malthaussen May 2015 #10
napkinz May 2015 #11
MannyGoldstein May 2015 #12
BrotherIvan May 2015 #37
Agony May 2015 #13
joanbarnes May 2015 #14
valerief May 2015 #15
Gregorian May 2015 #16
llmart May 2015 #24
Gregorian May 2015 #33
llmart May 2015 #35
Gregorian May 2015 #38
llmart May 2015 #41
NRaleighLiberal May 2015 #17
N_E_1 for Tennis May 2015 #18
2naSalit May 2015 #19
Moostache May 2015 #26
dreamnightwind May 2015 #43
Rex May 2015 #20
LWolf May 2015 #21
dpatbrown May 2015 #22
Overseas May 2015 #23
chervilant May 2015 #25
polly7 May 2015 #27
randys1 May 2015 #28
cantbeserious May 2015 #29
johnnyreb May 2015 #30
Peace Patriot May 2015 #31
H2O Man May 2015 #32
madokie May 2015 #34
dreamnightwind May 2015 #44
7wo7rees May 2015 #36
seveneyes May 2015 #39
malaise May 2015 #40
Scuba May 2015 #42
Dont call me Shirley May 2015 #45

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 10:23 AM

1. "Fuck George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and the rest of those shitheads"

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 10:27 AM

2. I so agree.

The War Machine is literally killing this nation.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 10:28 AM

3. Well said H2O Man, well said.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 10:36 AM

4. ...

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 10:39 AM

5. To assert the political will of the US over other people

Kind of echoes what Smedly Butler said in his small book.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 10:51 AM

6. K & R !!

Reality, how refreshing!!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 10:54 AM

7. the bush* administration shit on america's soldiers....

you don't send kids to die in a war based on deliberate lies...., but they did...with hubris

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 11:08 AM

8. Recommended. (nt)

 

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 11:15 AM

9. Harold Pinter - Nobel Lecture on Truth, War and the Big Lie


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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 11:21 AM

10. One thing we tend to forget...

... except in the cases of a few fanatics, the act of killing another human being -- whatever the circumstances -- is a gut-wrenching experience that can leave one scarred for life. I know more than one combat veteran who made a point of never trying to kill anybody -- "I shot out a lot of windows," one veteran of Patton's Third Army told me.

We think about the cost in terms of people dying and maimed, which are certainly of no small consequence. But we tend to ignore the cost to our young people of going around being bullies for our government and corporations. While we mourn our children for what has been done to them, we should not fail to mourn what we have made them do for us.

-- Mal

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 11:26 AM

11. K&R nt

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 11:40 AM

12. How do we fix this?

 

Thank you for sharing this truth-from-the-heart video. I just showed it to our son.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #12)

Mon May 25, 2015, 05:39 PM

37. Two words: JOBS and EDUCATION

We are the only developed country in the world where a poor kid who wants to go to college often has to choose to put his or her life on the line in order to be able to do it. I know this because I saw if first hand at the high school where I worked. The ONLY recruiters who came to the school were the military and the cops. This was a community of working class poor students who had no prospects. There weren't scholarships or loans that could cover the cost. Three kids signed up and another we were able to talk out of it.

Same for jobs. In the ghetto, there's minimum wage, drugs, or the military. This is the REAL reason why there is no jobs program or apprenticeships in this country. They want to keep enlistment up or the prisons filled (where surprisingly you can earn college credits). So we do have a jobs and education program in the US paid for by taxpayers, just not the one we want.

I have discussed this in threads on Sanders' bill to pay for college. I've been told that the European system which does pay for people to go to college is bad because it doesn't pay for everyone (even when they are shown evidence of how the system actually works, they persist). So they want to keep the status quo because it's not their kids denied a future, or worse, risking getting their limbs blown off because they weren't born rich enough but were born smart enough. FUCK YOU I GOT MINE isn't just for Republicans.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 11:41 AM

13. The Ground Truth: After the Killing Ends… The military teaches you to be a killer.

There is no way to sugar coat it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ground_Truth

Stan Goff also speaks in this 2006 documentary.

Mostly, it is about the lives of returned soldiers. Once you watch this… well… watch it.

Young people who join the military should not have to live what we ask them to do… kill, alone.

Agony

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 11:49 AM

14. Here we catch a glimpse of the soul of a true patriot.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 12:03 PM

15. Excellent clip. If kids really want to be heroes, they won't support the MIC. nt

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 12:05 PM

16. Fortunately, this was the mindset of the neighborhood in which I grew up.

Last edited Mon May 25, 2015, 12:41 PM - Edit history (1)

I grew up knowing better. And my dad grew up in poverty, so it wasn't like we had some lineage of bright people. I am totally anti-military. I'll go as far as to say that if we want to win some war on terror, all we have to do is stop being shitheads.

Vietnam was winding down, but the threat of being drafted still existed. One neighbor moved to Canada, where he lives to this day. Both my friend across the street, and me were preparing our CO status.

I still cannot believe the blindness of the human being towards several totally obvious things, war being one. The other is energy related. It's this ignorance that will end us all if we don't grow up.

Edit- As I digested more of this topic I asked what can be done to help others see the folly and tragedy of war even though it is glorified by the profiteers. First, when I was just a young child my father warned me that much of the history I would learn in school revolved around war. He used to lament that history defaulted to war. Even in university level history, I was dismayed that it was all WAR. I did not do well in that course. So how do we get other to see? This is where, I believe, the notion of trickle down really does work. Knowledge works that way. And I also believe that our schools are designed to keep people submissive. But the molding of society into submissiveness is also at the corporate level. Buy this, buy that. It may seem benign, but it plays on a subconscious level of the human that subtracts from independent thinking.

We were not fooled. And why is that? This is critically important, because it covers almost everything one does in life. Can I dissect what is coming at me. This is why when talking with my father before Bush stole office, he said "here come the wars". Now how did we know that? If more people had known that, there would never have been a close election. But it goes further than that. This kind of consciousness expands to include many other areas in life. Should I take care of my body? Should I take care of my community? Should I be careful with the energy I use. It all adds up to who is in control. Either I am in control, or some outside force is.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #16)

Mon May 25, 2015, 01:39 PM

24. I wish I had answers for you.....

but I can only speak to why I and my six siblings all became anti-war activists. Our grandfather, the only grandparent we knew growing up, told us many times about how he was put in jail for refusing to fight in a war. He was a Socialist too. He made it his mission to lecture us about Vietnam. We rolled our eyes at the crazy old geezer, but something sank in.

Our parents taught us something in the 50's that was outside the mainstream of the time. They taught us every chance they could to think for ourselves, educate ourselves, not to follow the crowd. We wore it like a badge of courage.

A high school American Government teacher subtly (because he couldn't buck the administration of the time) gave us the message that our generation should resist going to Vietnam in any way we could.

I guess I would say that in addition to that I'd teach children not to rely on the media for your information.

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Response to llmart (Reply #24)

Mon May 25, 2015, 02:40 PM

33. Consciousness of the truth.

This is why I'm so excited about Bernie Sanders. I hear the truth for the first time in forty years. The truth about what is good for people, not the hype that we've been fed.

I do think it comes from multiple avenues, as you indicated.

I remember hearing the story of my great uncles being Conscientious Objectors in either WW2. My mother grew up in a Quaker family in Connecticut. They had a foundation of nonviolence.

I think the commercialism of our democracy has gone a long way in slowly, small steps at a time, inching people into believing the hype that is hurled at them. And then the fear of being different has created an environment whereby people are afraid of thinking for themselves. I see this in so many areas, it's very disturbing. I see it with global warming. I know people who are fully aware of the danger we are in , and yet frivolously use fuel for their enjoyment. In fact, that's most people. So that comment will irritate almost anyone who reads it. That's the mentality I'm talking about. Doing harm in a benign way. Oh, it's just a little bit.

I kind of lost my energy here. There is an importance to knowing how to discover the truth. War should be easily identifiable as something we should never do. I cannot understand how we can glorify it, and then have people follow along as if it were not horrible. WW2 was unifying, and had many facets to it that were gratifying to those involved. There was a purpose. Our fleet was bombed like nothing that had come before. Hitler was advancing around the globe. It seemed legitimate to ramp up the war machine.

I'm not sure where I'm going with all of this. I've run out of steam. Maybe someone like Bernie Sanders can restore sanity to this drunken nation.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #33)

Mon May 25, 2015, 03:16 PM

35. I understand how you feel.....

I feel like I'm swimming upstream sometimes. Plus, I'm 66 years old and I'm tired of seeing some of the things we thought we'd gained and accomplished disappear. I watched the PBS documentary "1971" the other day about how a small group of individuals risked it all to prove that the FBI was spying on people, mostly antiwar activists. It's all come full circle.

Maybe I'm just plain tired I don't have the energy to fight. I did, however, follow in my grandfather's and parents' footsteps in that I preached nonviolence to my two grown children.

The glorification of all things military and war is an insidious thing and I saw it happening immediately after September 11th and I hated it. I knew where it was going. Babies and children wearing camoflage, flag waving, etc. all in an effort - devised I'm sure of it - by those chickenhawks in power who never served a damned day in a war zone.

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Response to llmart (Reply #35)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:31 PM

38. A transformation story.


Jim was subjected to incredible abuse as a child. He ended up on the streets of San Francisco in the toughest gangs. This guy intimidated the Hells Angels. He was ready to go to Vietnam and kill some "gooks". One of the guys in his gang had already gone to the war. According to Jim he was the original Rambo. The guy who went back up the river in enemy territory, single handed, to get prisoners. When his friend came back from the war, Jim told him how anxious he was to go. His friend just said 'It isn't what you think'. He got the message across that this was something other than what we were told. It was bullshit, in other words. Somehow Jim heard him, and literally went from willing to go to being a CO.

There are a number of great things on the internet now. I've begun watching some Youtube channels that revolve around strength, both physically and mentally. Becoming a bigger and better version of oneself. Not just taking what is thrown at us. It takes effort, and dedication, and knowledge. I think we've allowed ourselves to believe those with the biggest mouthpiece. Buy this; do that; be all you can be; just say no; just do it. But that's changing. I mention this because that Rambo guy is an artist now. And Jim beat his abuse and alcoholism and violence, and now lives a life helping others, and all of the animals that live on his property. I laughed when he told me about coming home at night. He said that the skunks and deer and possums and racoons wait for him to come home. We can change. But it's a challenge. For some reason hatred is much easier to be absorbed by us than love. It's as if love is a higher level that is more difficult, and even distasteful for us. As if we might lose a piece of our self by not fighting back.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #38)

Mon May 25, 2015, 08:37 PM

41. Very eloquent.

n/t

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 12:21 PM

17. "what is it good for? absolutely nothing"

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 12:30 PM

18. Truer truth could never be uttered...n/t

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 12:42 PM

19. The only real threat to the Constitution

is multinational corporations and their lackeys in the halls of our government... and those whom they can persuade to believe them.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #19)

Mon May 25, 2015, 01:43 PM

26. WAS the threat....war's over man, and THEY won.

The military now is nothing more than an modern reincarnation of the Knight's Templar at their utter worst. A gang sent out to do the bidding and die by men who care nothing of them, the suffering of others or the rest of humanity.

I am haunted by a conversation I had in September 2001 shortly after 9/11. I was discussing the events with a group of people and they ALL were saying this meant "war", but when I pressed them on that idea, when I asked "War against who?", all I got in return was a lot of anger and thirst for vengeance but nothing more than the emerging company line "war on terror". These were educated, rational people and I could not reach them through their fear. They were scared to death of more terrorism and when I pressed further with the root of this anger towards America things got to a pitch that was terribly uncomfortable and led to some lost friendships.

I knew then, going on 14 years ago already, that we were in deep shit. I've seen nothing to date to make me think otherwise, only reinforcement that we are under the boot of the corporations and their interests outweigh EVERYTHING else - people, communities, families, justice, peace...you name it. If it is not in service of greater profits, it is not defended.

That war is over and we all lost massively. We now live under occupation until critical mass is reached and the push for change can no longer be suppressed. Occupy was crushed and now marginalized. It will take something orders of magnitude more than Occupy to end this reign of the corporate greed and stop their war machine.

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Response to Moostache (Reply #26)

Tue May 26, 2015, 04:44 AM

43. Thank you for that post

Couldn't agree more.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 12:45 PM

20. What is it good for? nt

 

nt

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 01:21 PM

21. This devastates me.

Maybe because the draft didn't end until all the boys I went to high school had to register. Maybe because my first husband served, and came back socially and emotionally damaged...for the rest of his life. Maybe because my son's best friend was physically, socially, and emotionally damaged in Iraq, and we watched it happen, and tried to be a safe haven when he came back, but he spun out of control and into trouble despite what we could do.

I thought a lot about this when my own sons were of age to join the military. They come from poor working stock. I was still finishing my own education...on loans. I had nothing to give them but love and moral support; I couldn't help put them through college. If they'd decided to join the military for the opportunities offered, I would have supported them 110%, but my heart would have fractured.

They didn't. I'm sure some of it was my influence; they were raised by a person fully committed to non-violent solutions to conflict. By someone who taught them to think for themselves, who taught them to choose carefully where their loyalties lay, to be skeptical of conventional wisdom and peer/societal pressure, to have the backs of the underdogs, to fight smart, and to never engage in a physical conflict that wasn't about direct self-defense in the face of immediate assault.

Still, they are their own men, and they have my unconditional support, always. They know that.

Like others reading your thread, this popped into my head at the thread title, without even reading further; I think I'll post it here.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 01:29 PM

22. Well put!

 

RICH people start wars, POOR people fight them.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 01:35 PM

23. K&R. Well said.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 01:40 PM

25. ALL of our younglings should hear the sage words of this brave man.

{The Military} exists to assert the political will of the United States government against other people by force of arms.


They’re not sending you out there to be a hero. They’re sending you out there to be a bully.


LaFeber's "The American Age" helped me see clearly that the United States government has long been the purview of a bunch of bullies, bent on world dominion.

What's that gotten us?

I wish that every one of our younglings would refuse to participate in the pathological military. EVERY one...

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 01:43 PM

27. This is outstanding. nt.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 01:46 PM

28. Simple solution, anyone voting for war or sending troops has to send their son or daughter or

grandchildren first.

This would apply to our current president, but his daughters are too young to go.

I think people like Obama use force as a last resort, so my rule is really meant for the vile, filthy CHICKENSHIT CHICKENHAWKS like Dick 4 deferments Cheney and George champagne unit Bush...

god dammit, when I think of those motherfuckers, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 01:47 PM

29. Thank You For Sharing

eom

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 02:01 PM

30. And fuck the Big Media that enabled it all.

Remember their names.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 02:05 PM

31. Thank you, H20 Man!

Peace

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Response to Peace Patriot (Reply #31)

Mon May 25, 2015, 02:09 PM

32. Thank you.

This is a strange day for the group of family & friends gathered here.

Cooking buffalo and chicken; drinking coffee, tea, and beer. And remembering .....

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 02:49 PM

34. War is an admission of failure

failure to work out our differences. failure to be good stewards of our fellow man, failure all around. No good can come of war.

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Response to madokie (Reply #34)

Tue May 26, 2015, 04:53 AM

44. It's also just theft and murder

I see it more as a means to an end for certain people. Usually the end they seek is access to mineral resources, or making certain that no nation is free to operate outside of the interests of capitalists. War is a procurement tool for the rich, a power play.

I suppose you could call that a failure, though it is only a moral failure, the powerful often get what they want through war so from their perspective it is hardly a failure.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 03:35 PM

36. Should be required viewing for any teen

The 7wo7rees had dinner with Stan Goff at the annual Vets For Peace meeting the night before they decided to join Cindy in Crawford, and he was captivating with this same simple talk that so neatly outlines the argument against service.

We mean no disrespect to those who served, or those who lost someone to service. Very brave all of you.

Simply put, the best decisions come when one has all the information.

Stan was a big wake up for us, we became decruiters, and stopped two young men from enlisting under Bush. Two fewer bullies on Earth.

Thanks for this message today H2O Man. God bless.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:32 PM

39. Welcome to the dark side

 

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 06:38 PM

40. And then some

Rec

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon May 25, 2015, 08:47 PM

42. When I hear someone is considering joining the military, I suggest they first volunteer ....

 

... at one of the veteran's homes here in Wisconsin.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 26, 2015, 10:07 AM

45. We must all refuse to participate in the billionaire's ugly system. That is how we end war.

Thanks for posting H2O Man

Peace. Care. Love. Respect.

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