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Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:24 PM

 

If Jenner can be a woman while still sporting a penis, why can't Rachel Dolezal be African American?

sorry to be so blunt, but just sayin'

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/02/living/caitlyn-jenner-name-style-decoding-feat/

Whether Jenner will feel complete as a woman while possessing a penis is a question only she can answer.


The NAACP was cool with Dolezal. Why is white culture freaking out?

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Reply If Jenner can be a woman while still sporting a penis, why can't Rachel Dolezal be African American? (Original post)
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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:30 PM

1. Race is a physical characteristic

Has she had her skin color changed permanently?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:35 PM

9. Just wait a while

People will be saying they are really a different race than they were born and get tattooed or dyed (or bleached) or whatnot. Heck, there is Mengele-worthy means of changing eye color already. I am sure with enough money there is a doctor somewhere that will do this.

My joke has been Michael Jackson was WAY ahead of this trend. He turned himself into a white woman!

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:41 PM

19. Not really....

 

Race is a human construct based largely on morphological features. But genetically, it's basically impossible define "race."

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #19)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:00 PM

200. This. Yes. n/t

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #19)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:05 PM

234. That is absolutely not true

there are distinct genetic patterns depending on one's decent. Y chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA tend to be associated with certain races or at least regions of the world.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #234)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:07 PM

237. Not race, no. Region, possibly.

Molecular anthropologists are often asked if DNA markers can tell what "race" you are. The short answer is "no." Mitochondrial DNA and Y haplogroups can tell from which continent your matrilineal and patrilineal ancestors came.

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Response to DeadLetterOffice (Reply #237)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:14 PM

244. Which, by human definition (cause race or breeds are a made up term) is essentially race

It would depend on what you define as race. Are the Basque people a race? Nationality is not race per se. French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Italians were at one more or less, the same race. I don't know, its tricky but there sure is a cultural and at least to some degree biological tendency towards race.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #244)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:19 PM

249. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

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Response to DeadLetterOffice (Reply #249)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 08:36 PM

276. You might disagree, but the facts are the facts

 

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #276)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 08:59 PM

283. Yup. Totally.

I'm just not interested in beating my head against a brick wall tonight is all, and it seemed like that conversation was going that way.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #276)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 05:18 PM

435. Bill Nye? You break out an engineer to argue genetics and anthropology?

Relethford the Author of The Fundamentals of Biological Anthropology notes race as - a group of individuals that share some biological characteristics. They differ from other groups according to these characteristics.

So, Bill Nye should be worrying about Rault's Law and STP and not worry about genetics.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #435)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:10 PM

452. The choice in characteristics is both a matter of culture and...

 

members of a race may not share all characteristics.

For example, President Obama is biracial, yet still identifies himself African American. It is painfully obvious that the definition of race, as with the definition of homosexual, is changeable over time and within cultures.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #234)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 09:11 PM

288. So is a kid with a white parent and black parent black or white?

 

Like the concept of "species," it is a classification we find convenient as humans. But it doesn't actually exist as a discreet thing. We're all a collection of alleles.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #288)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 05:30 AM

354. "We're all a collection of alleles"

 

That's beautiful.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #288)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 06:56 AM

358. With all due respect

Rachel isn't one of us.


My Father (whose beautiful soul is in heaven) was black - my mother is still alive and white.

Rachel has two white parents.

TBH - It's pretty insulting to imply that she has had my same life experiences, family experience etc. etc.

Here it comes - 'bi-racial kids are fucked up because this white woman who tans a lot and wears a wig is fucked up'.

SHE IS NOT ONE OF US. .

Yes - I was ^ yelling ^ - because I'm insulted. Her parents didn't get run off the road when her mother was close to full term with her older brother - Mine did. That's the reality for REAL mixed race families in the late 1960's / early 1970's in Kentucky.

I'm not driving into every. single. fucking. experience. I've had.

But please - knock it off.

This was 'settled' to white Americans satisfaction led when a black man with a white mother entered the White House.

At no time ever have all the bigots in this piece of shit inherently racist country EVER accepted him as white -


Except when they want to be little bigoted snots.

Find another analogy - she doesn't have the life experience of a bi-racial person -

Comparing her to us - it's just fucking bullshit. And you know it is. You know it.


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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #358)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 08:51 AM

362. Oh, I agree...

 

but the idea that we can neqtly categorize people into races based on DNA is simply false.

I'd say race in America is more about lived experience than exclusively DNA. The fact is that very many of us have very muddled genetic ancestry.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #362)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 08:56 AM

364. Thanks - I figured you would

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:56 PM

32. and gender is not?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:14 PM

78. No, it's not. You're thinking of sex.

 

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #78)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:17 PM

87. No, I'm thinking of body parts -- biology. n/t

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Response to whathehell (Reply #87)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:19 PM

91. ...which is what sex is.

 

Sex refers to male and female, gender refers to masculine and feminine.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #91)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:29 PM

111. See post #106. n/t

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #91)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 05:33 AM

355. Often we are on the same side of the fence, but not this time

 

There is gender (XX or XY), and then there is gender identity. Jenner's gender is male (XY); her gender identity is woman.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #87)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:22 PM

95. Gender identity is not dependent on body parts. Women who have no uterus or ovaries are still women

Last edited Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:12 PM - Edit history (1)

A man who, for example, has his pelvis severely injured in a bombing, has no testicles of permitted remaining is still a man. Right?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #95)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:26 PM

106. Sex and gender have been used interchangeably

for the last millennium or so. It's only recently that some scientists are now making distinctions -- Everyone does

not agree that "gender" is all in the brain.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #106)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:30 PM

117. I had a hysterectomy, am postmenopausal. I consider myself female, a woman. You deny me that?

Wow. I do not have the biological parts to make me female, a woman, it is only in my brain so not real?

Again, wow.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #117)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:40 PM

133. Yeah, me too

but there is always the matter of the gender one was born into and lived.

Besides, it's not only the sex organs that make one gender differ from the other -- It's facial features, musculature,

hormones, etc.



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Response to whathehell (Reply #133)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:59 PM

157. Postmenopausal means none of those female hormones, which makes women's features coarsen, facial

hair sprouts. I've more muscles than many women my age also.

Guess I'm no longer a woman, then.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #157)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:49 PM

224. None of those facial changes has happened to me, and I've been post-menapausal for awhile

I have more lines and my face is not as firm as it once was, but it hasn't 'coarsened' and

I have no additional hair at all.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #133)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 12:09 PM

397. Oh For Heaven's Sake

Two X chromosomes make a person a female. Add or subtract body parts, homones, facial features, XX equals female.

Unless you are a bird, and then XY equals female.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #397)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 12:54 PM

399. No kidding..

but I don't think I'm the person you want to be talking to.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #397)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:12 PM

416. Is your point gender identity is dependent upon your chromosomes?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #117)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:17 PM

210. Uhm, yeah you do still have the female body parts that make you a woman.

The removal of reproductive organs does not change your gender/sex. (Not to mention chomosomes, even though those do not change with gender reassignment surgery.)

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Response to Snobblevitch (Reply #210)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:17 PM

247. Thank you. n/t

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Response to Snobblevitch (Reply #210)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:29 PM

252. What body parts "makes you a woman"? You seem to also say being a woman is dependent on

xx chromosomes. Is that correct?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #252)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:35 PM

255. I was just posting biological facts.

The parts that females are born with that males are not born with is what makes them female and vice versa. There are things that can be done to reverse this using hormones and surgical procedures, but unless a woman suddenly grew a post-menopausal penis and scrotum, she's still a she.

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Response to Snobblevitch (Reply #255)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:42 PM

259. Unless a person fully transitions physically, they are still he/she as they were born?

Unless he were to grow a penis and scrotum, you'd still call him "she"? Unless she grew a vagina and labia, you would call her " him"?

Are you saying your genitals are what make you a gender?

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Response to Snobblevitch (Reply #255)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:46 PM

261. Is the person in this reply a real man? He no longer has those biological physical

parts he was born with that "makes him male". So, is he male?



http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026847018#post150

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #261)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 08:19 PM

269. The only point I wished to make is that a woman

who has a hysterectomy is still a woman after the operation.

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Response to Snobblevitch (Reply #255)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:33 PM

311. No, you are posting your point of view, and are making absolute statements based on minimal

information.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #311)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:23 PM

322. So you bieve that a woman who has a

hysterectomy is no longer a woman. Wow.

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Response to Snobblevitch (Reply #322)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:13 PM

417. It depends. For someone transitioning to their perceived gender identity of male, no. For those

who continue their perceived gender identity of female, yes.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #417)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:20 PM

419. None of my posts on this thread are about transgender people.

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Response to Snobblevitch (Reply #419)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:21 PM

420. Yes, you have. The Op is about that, and yes, you have posted that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6848222
"The removal of reproductive organs does not change your gender/sex."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6848724

The parts that females are born with that males are not born with is what makes them female and vice versa. There are things that can be done to reverse this using hormones and surgical procedures, but unless a woman suddenly grew a post-menopausal penis and scrotum, she's still a she.


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Response to uppityperson (Reply #420)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 04:28 PM

425. That was my way of explaining

that a woman who has had a hysterectomy is still a woman. I was not referring to gender reasignment surgery. Any other intrepretation of my comments is not what I intended.

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Response to Snobblevitch (Reply #425)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 04:30 PM

426. ok, thanks for clarifying. eom

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Response to whathehell (Reply #106)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:14 PM

161. Until about 300BC most of humanity thought the earth was flat

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]It's only recently that some scientists are now think it might be a globe--Everyone does not agree that the earth is "a globe."[/font]

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #161)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:15 PM

245. Um, I wouldn't call that the best analogy..

but whatever floats your boat.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #161)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:14 PM

301. And even then

 

they understood the concept of transgendered persons.

I'll just point in the general direction of Greece and if the person wants to be more enlightened they can actually read about it. Or, you know, even the Old Testament addressed it, and not with the "burn them at the stake" interpretation that is so prevalent in Puritanical culture that continues to pervade and pervert our society.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #87)


Response to Post removed (Reply #104)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:27 PM

108. Lame.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #108)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:55 PM

265. Jury Results and the Administrator's Terms of Service

Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic.

Just because it isn't listed here, doesn't mean it's ok. If you post anything which is obviously disruptive, malicious, or repugnant to this community, its members, or its values, you risk being in violation of these Terms of Service.


On Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:18 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Using the word "thinking" is another mistake you keep using...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847516


REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

what's with the rude personal insults?

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:35 PM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Personal insults not needed.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Some people need to rethink pushing alerts
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Stupid remark.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sometimes it becomes necessary to be blunt when confronting transphobia. The question asked in this OP is an egregiously rude personal insult to all trans people and their allies, to our members here at DU and those out in the world community. It's not at all surprising that anyone struggling against transphobia would take deep offense at some of the hurtful questions being asked within this thread.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No need to go there. Not everyone has the same body of knowledge and experience.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Flat out personal insult. Tame compared to most, but this stuff has gotta' stop.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to countryjake (Reply #265)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:07 AM

382. Thank you, countryjake.

I really appreciate your support.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #382)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:06 PM

415. Your sarcasm is noted.

I will never understand the unthinking callousness with which some people go about smearing and deliberately hurting members who were born into this world slightly different than themselves.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:08 PM

63. According to Wikipedia, race is a social concept

Gender is a social concept, which has traditionally been aligned with biological sex but is increasingly being accepted as separate from biology. I guess it's really down to societal perception and acceptance of what is 'normal' and permissible and what is 'crazy' and not permissible.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 01:57 AM

340. So is gender, at least as much as race.

Both are also social constructs.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:31 PM

2. Wow. Dumbest post ever. Read a bit about transgender then try again.

 

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:53 PM

30. "

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:58 PM

35. Nailedf it. This thread is an uhnope.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:18 PM

302. ^^This^^ Yep. nt

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:11 AM

389. Dunno. This one gives it a run for its money.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:31 PM

3. That's just ugly.

You should consider self-deleting this. It's transphobic.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:32 PM

4. What an ugly post. Shame on you.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:33 PM

5. That's fucked up

Just sayin'

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:17 PM

84. Why?..Why is it all so negative?..I think unhope is just asking an honest question

that is, by the way, being asked in other places, and no, not "right wing" places.

The alert on her OP was a huge 7 to 0 fail, so I'm guessing a lot of DUers are not bothered by it.




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Response to whathehell (Reply #84)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:20 PM

93. If it was a 7 to 0 fail

 

Then either I'm in the wrong place or there is something else going on here that has clearly escaped me.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #93)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:36 PM

126. My bad. It was a 5-2 and that is still a large fail.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #93)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:20 PM

165. On this discussion board

Shouldn't we be having a discussion that the rest of America is having?

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Response to forthemiddle (Reply #165)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:29 PM

172. You mean like is Obama Kenyan?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #84)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:24 PM

98. No, it was 2-5 leave, not 0-7.

Not on jury but here are the comments.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

just sayin'

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 01:46 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Hurtful, rude and insensitive.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: fair question, I guess.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: hiding this POS just sayin' . To begin with penis or no Caitlyn is a woman, Rachel is white. Bit of a difference in those two things.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Perhaps a penetrating remark, but I'm lost in the forest of illogic.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #98)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:29 PM

113. That's bad enough :(. n/t

 

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Response to Aerows (Reply #113)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:26 PM

216. Juror # 7 illustrates the iqnorance quite clearly

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Response to Skittles (Reply #216)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:32 PM

221. It's the whole

 

gleeful RW "Ha ha ha, we've got those liberals now, transgender people are fake just like this white woman pretending to be black ha ha ha."

It's demeaning, and seeing it here makes me ill, sad and frankly, questioning why the fuck people perpetuating that meme are here. Hell, maybe I don't belong here if that is acceptable.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #221)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:36 PM

222. of course it is, but juries are a crapshoot

people who JUST.DON'T.GET.IT........we just have to keep fighting them - seriously, if they think a comment like that is OK, they are BIGOTS

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Response to Aerows (Reply #113)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:53 PM

226. I should have written a better alert message

I thought it was self explanatory, but I should have taken my own advice and made the alert message more clear.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #226)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:56 PM

228. Any rational person

 

could take a look at that damn post and wouldn't even need an explanation as to why it was garbage.

Not your fault, it's the fault of the 5 that let it stand and the 1 that posted it to begin with.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #98)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:30 PM

116. Still a pretty big fail.

I wasn't on the jury either.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #84)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:53 PM

151. Honest question my ass

 

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #151)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:12 PM

243. Thank you for sharing.

but I stand by my opinion.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #243)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:24 PM

251. Do you have the slightest clue how stupid your wavey thiong is in these situations

 

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #251)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:25 AM

370. It was late. That being said, the opinions of those who can't spell a word like "thing"

rarely concern me.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #370)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:27 AM

371. For your knowledge, there is a difference between "can't spell" and a typing mistake

 

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #371)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:40 AM

376. For yours, we have something called "spellcheck"

You might want to try it.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #376)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:12 AM

383. You might want to ......

 

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #383)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:56 AM

393. You might want to....

as well.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #393)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:58 AM

395. Wow. Such originality. (are they your false teeth)?

 

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #395)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 12:52 PM

398. Yes, you too!

False teeth?...No, mine would bite you on the ass.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #398)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 01:44 PM

404. So glad you're no longer in Philadelphia

 

My sympathy to Chicago

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #404)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:44 PM

422. Me too

since you're exactly the type I was happy to leave.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #84)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:03 PM

159. It's TERF-like and I dislike TERF additudes

While Gender is fluid, with gender characteristics blending into one another, along with biological sex 'conditions' such as AIS, societal imposed norms are all heterosexist. Either females or males may be Trans.

Race shouldn't have started to matter to humans at all, but it did and does. For the third time in these threads I'll ask, if a dark complected Black person went around claiming they were white, how do you think that would work out?

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #159)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:08 PM

239. What is "TERF-like"?

I have no idea and who is to say "gender is fluid" and race is not?..These are relatively NEW phenomenon

and I'd say it's a tad early for non-scholars to be claiming expertise and adopting rigid attitudes.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #239)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 09:40 PM

291. Ew.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #291)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:04 AM

380. "EW"?

Oh, excuse me...Do all the 'cool kids" know what that means?

Gawd -- How gauche and rude. I'm really surprised and disappointed in you. I thought you were better than this.

Clearly, I was wrong.






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Response to whathehell (Reply #84)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:25 PM

168. I don't think the transphobic nature of the DU jury pool

is any defense this poster can hide behind.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #168)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:57 PM

231. I don't think it's fair or accurate to automatically categorize the DU Jury pool as "transphobic".

Again, the OP was asking a question -- I don't know why that's such a big problem for you and some others here.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #84)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:54 PM

227. the question is being asked by transphobes / bigots

there are plenty of people on DU who DO.NOT.F***ING.GET.IT.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #227)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:03 PM

233. That is a matter of opinion

one a lot of people on DU, me included, do not share,


Even if "not getting it" is what's going on here, that doesn't automatically make the unenlightened "bigots" or "transphobes".

Transgenderism doesn't exactly have the benefit of being an ancient, well-researched phenomenon.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #233)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:51 PM

262. NO IT ISN'T

if you diminish trans folk by insinuating they are just like this gal who is claiming to be black, YOU'RE A BIGOT

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Response to Skittles (Reply #262)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:28 AM

372. Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE - Explanation: Calling it what it is ...is not hide worthy.

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #372)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:00 PM

405. the jury gets it right

OMG the idea this has to be explained on a PROGRESSIVE BOARD is VERY disturbing

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Response to Skittles (Reply #262)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:40 AM

377. alert results

On Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:17 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

NO IT ISN'T
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6848825

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

YOU'RE A BIGOT,labels do not belong on DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:25 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Calling it what it is ...is not hide worthy.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I agree with the alerter, and while I do give poster props for spelling you're correctly, I say this deserves to be hidden.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

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Response to Skittles (Reply #262)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 01:16 PM

402. YES IT IS

and if you continue to diminish and insult me and others here who believe in

open inquiry, YOU'RE A FASCIST.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #402)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:00 PM

406. "open inquiry"

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Response to Skittles (Reply #406)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:36 PM

421. because the question has been indisputably settled

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Response to whathehell (Reply #421)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 08:24 PM

450. it IS settled

in the mind of ANYONE with critical thinking skills

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6852665

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Response to whathehell (Reply #402)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:15 PM

418. Here's Fascism for you...

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Response to countryjake (Reply #418)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:51 PM

423. No idea what that is..

but fascism can be represented by more than one thing.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #423)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 04:48 PM

429. Come on ....... it's a concentration camp prisoner's outfit and number. nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #429)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 07:12 PM

448. "Come on"?

Sorry, I really did not recognize it as such.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #233)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 08:07 PM

268. The Administrator's Terms of Service...

Just because it isn't listed here, doesn't mean it's ok. If you post anything which is obviously disruptive, malicious, or repugnant to this community, its members, or its values, you risk being in violation of these Terms of Service.


Why don't you ask Skinner what his opinion is on gender identity?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #233)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:10 PM

300. Excuse me!?

 

"Transgenderism doesn't exactly have the benefit of being an ancient, well-researched phenomenon."

BACK UP THE TRUCK.

It has been recorded and documented since human civilization has been documented.

Let me point to any assortment of Greek works, or hey, let's look at Native American beliefs closer here to home.



Assyrians, Egyptians, Hebrews (you know that thing called the Old Testament?), yeah, not one of them mentioned it, and no, even in the Old Testament it isn't exactly "burn them at the stake, heathens!" either.

You are woefully misinformed. I highly recommend that you update your reading list. I don't have enough *time* to provide all the links I would need to give you that absolutely, categorically and fully refutes that statement.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #300)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:37 AM

375. Before being excused, you have to actually read my post

because you are clearly confused.

What you are pointing out is the existence of transgenders throughout history -- I never denied their existence

and I certainly NEVER argued that anyone should be "burned at the stake"

What I said, was that it has not been long RESEARCHED -- you know, via with the scientific method?

We have eons and scores of "beliefs" stemming from earliest recorded time. That doesn't mean they

were scientifically researched. Get it now?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #233)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:36 PM

313. No, it's not a 'matter of opinion.'

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #313)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:08 AM

367. I'm afraid it is, and if you had "listened and learned" from a larger pool of people,

and I am talking about people of color, like MSNBC's Melissa Harris-Perry for one,

who are responding to the Dolezar case, you would find that the trans-racial question

is still being discussed, with no "correct" or final word on its legitimacy yet established.

Firstl of all, you might recall that the NAACP itself issued a statement supporting Rachel Dolezar.

It seems they were more concerned with her work than with her self-identification.

If you watched Melissa Harris-Perry's televised interview with Ms. Dolezar last night, you would have learned that

Ms. Harris-Perry is sympathetic to Ms. Dolezar. Her disclosure to Chris Hayes that she is "fighting

with my friends", gives further evidence that the matter is still "under discussion", making final

conclusions at this point, premature.

My personal opinion of Ms. Dolezar is that she is emotionally disturbed, but that is irrelevant.

My problem here is with all those who are insisting on closing the discussion at such an early juncture.

Excuse me, but as progressives, are we not supposed keep open minds? I find the angry demand to shut

down the entire discussion disturbing and very much at odds with those values.




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Response to whathehell (Reply #367)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:44 AM

384. No one from that larger pool is successfully pushing 'trans-racial' as legitimate theory.

Critical thinking considers a weak argument and rejects it. I saw that interview. Yes, I saw some sympathy from Melissa Harris-Perry toward a troubled individual. I didn't see her pushing the notion that 'trans-racial' is a legitimate concept. An argument that suggests that race is a vague or fuzzy abstraction can be considered and rejected. Tamara Winfrey Harris addresses this in her New York Times opinion piece:

'In the days since this story broke, many people have been quick to point out that race is merely a social construct — as if that fact changes the very real impact of race on the lives of minorities. The persistence of systemic racism means there are penalties for blackness in America.

Black women — real ones — live at the nexus of that oppression and enduring sexism. The gender pay gap is steeper for them. They are more likely than their white counterparts to live in poverty, to be victims of domestic homicide and sexual assault. If Tyisha Miller and Rekia Boyd, black women who were victims of extrajudicial violence, had been able to slide into whiteness — for just a moment — they might still be alive. (Perplexingly, Ms. Dolezal told Matt Lauer that her decision to identify as black was a matter of “survival.” That is rich, indeed.) But racial oppression is not as easy to shrug off as racial advantage. This is partly because America has spent centuries ensuring that certain people can never be white.

Being able to shift one’s race is a privilege. Ms. Dolezal’s masquerade illustrates that however much she may empathize with African-Americans, she is not one, because black people in America cannot shed their race. We cannot proclaim the black race a nebulous concept, while strictly policing whiteness and the privileges of that identity. I will accept Ms. Dolezal as black like me only when society can accept me as white like her.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/rachel-dolezals-harmful-masquerade.html?_r=0

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #384)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:56 AM

392. Not in the extremely short time that the Dolezar case has been in the news, maybe

It's not yet even a week.

In any case, as my post mentioned, my personal opinion is that Dolezar is a disturbed individual.

That being said, a progressive site should be OPEN to discussion, especially when the subject

is as recent as this one is.

I must also mention the obvious, and that is the fact that there are SO many things you've characterized as Dolezar's

"white privilege" and her lack of experience with Black oppression that also apply to MEN transitioning

to femaleness regarding their "male privilege" and their LACK of experience of female oppression,

that you'd have difficulty arguing against the point, and, sorry, but I've heard people of color making this same

comparison and asking the same question as the OP.

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Response to whathehell (Reply #392)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 12:04 PM

396. Fair enough. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I don't want to shut down discussion. It can get to be a pretty emotional topic. But I agree with you on this particular point - I think fair and open discussion is great.

Have a good day.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #396)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 12:58 PM

400. Thank you..

such a nice surprise.

You have a good day as well.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #227)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 05:50 AM

356. If so, then a satisfactory answer should be easy to provide

 

But a satisfactory answer is elusive at best. There is no litigation on which to rely, no definitions, many counter examples, and far too much kneejerk namecalling.

You are right that many people on DU "do not get it", but if it is that obvious, then it should be easy to explain.

Yet an explanation is complex and vague, therefore the answer is anything but obvious.

Insulting those asking as transphobes and bigots is unhelpful.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #356)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:05 PM

407. I find it very disturbing it has to be "explained" here

Fox News and the Dicussionist, absolutely

and these "innocent questions" and "inquiries".......aw never mind

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Response to Skittles (Reply #407)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:55 PM

412. I find it unsettling that angry people cannot provide an explanation

 

Your implication there is some ulterior motive is simply an avoidance of addressing the question.

I sympathize with your suspicion. In general, I'm convinced that many posters are sockpuppets working for specific parties, candidates and corporate interests. But I also recognize that my paranoia is a lousy rhetorical tactic.

So please, make me understand why it is okay for someone to be transgender but not trans racial.

If there is insufficient reason, the result isn't that we should treat transgender people poorly, but that we should possibly treat trans racial people with the same respect and people will have to accept something they found uncomfortable a few years ago. If the reason is good, then we move on and heap ridicule and abuse on people who claim they are a different race, such as our African American President (who is actually biracial).

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Response to whathehell (Reply #84)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 08:54 AM

363. +1. It is something that can be compared and contrasted

and discussed. It's odd that some people don't even want it discussed. What are they afraid of?

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Response to treestar (Reply #363)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:12 AM

368. Thank you...It is being discussed all across the media, social and otherwise

and I'm amazed, not to mention disheartened, at what appears to be fearful resistance to its discussion here.

What are they afraid of, indeed? I have no idea, but I do know it's best to FACE your fears instead

of trying to shut down all mention of them.

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Response to treestar (Reply #363)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:08 PM

408. I am not AFRAID

I am just DISGUSTED at the insinuation trans folk have the same motivations as that gal.

The serious lack of recommends shows me MOST PEOPLE HERE GET IT.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:33 PM

6. I wonder if Jenner has ever been

Afraid of being overpowered and raped. Or if she had to get a cosigner to borrow money because she was the wrong gender. I wonder if anyone she worked with openly speculated about it being her time of the month because she was in a bad mood. Or if she ever considered that she might die while giving birth, or if she would be treated with hostility because she had an abortion.

I understand that Caitlyn identifies as being a woman. I also think she's been a privileged white man for most of her life.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:37 PM

12. yes being a former white man who is still rich and famous with a PR agency

 

might have something to do with it

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:40 PM

17. Why do you put identifies in quotes? That is nasty towards trans gendered people, implying that they

"Identify" vs are, that it isn't really real. Please read, learn, and drop the scarequotes.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:49 PM

25. okay. I'll remove them if it makes you happy.

I think there is a lot Jenner has missed out on over the decades, both good and traumatic by not being a woman. A lot has changed for women during his lifetime. And I also think he enjoyed the privileges of being a white man during that time too. That is why I typed that word with quotes.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #25)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:57 PM

33. Also, she is a she, not a he. Her lifetime, not his. Thank you.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #33)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:08 PM

64. I'm sorry about the pronouns. I've of thought of

Her as male since I first saw her in the Olympics when I was in high school. I've used the correct ones in other posts.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #64)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:11 PM

71. Thank you.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #25)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:16 PM

83. I have a feeling she probably never felt all that privileged 'being a white man'.

It was probably very hard for her all these years. I imagine she did and does have a lot of pride in what she accomplished, ie. the Olympic records, as a person, but we're all able to accomplish things (most of us, not that great!) even while going through internal hell. I admire her bravery, she's facing such bigotry and ridicule - who on earth would choose to subject themselves to that if it weren't for something absolutely vital to her well-being?

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Response to polly7 (Reply #83)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:24 PM

99. Just because she may not have felt the privilege

doesn't mean it wasn't there or she didn't gain financial security from it. We all make choices and trade-offs. I have no doubt her life has been an emotional and psychological struggle. I hope she can be happy now.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #17)


Response to Post removed (Reply #39)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:09 PM

67. I just can't see anyone making such a radical change

For PR and TV money. It's too personal.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #67)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:15 PM

81. People do all sorts of crazy crap for money and fame.

So I can totally see it.

For that matter, I can't see anyone watching the Kardashians, but they do.

Check back in in about 5 years and Jenner will grasp at another 15 minutes of fame by "becoming a man again."

(Scare quotes ON PURPOSE.)

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Response to Post removed (Reply #39)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:45 AM

342. Oh yeah? So, what would your price be?

How much money would it take for you to fake being transgender? Think about what you said. I mean, really. I wouldn't put my worst enemy through the internal turmoil. On top of that, people are not nice. The transphobia and hatred directed toward the transgender community often comes in the form of actual murder and even in some cases having medical personnel refuse to treat life threatening injuries in car accidents and in other situations.

What is your price? How much money would it take for you go through all that?

No one would go through all that for money. I don't care for the Kardashians either, but I don't believe she is coming out as transgender for money. There would be no point. It's not like she is hurting for money.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:48 PM

22. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:35 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I wonder if Jenner has ever been
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847086

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Transgender bigotry rears its ugly head. Claiming she is not a woman because she hasn't had to live with these fears is crap.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:46 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "Transgender bigotry"?? Sorry I don't get it either. A boy with a penis can call himself a girl, but a white woman cannot call herself a black woman? It's a very confusing time. I realize I'm in the minority here, but I say let it stay.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Transphobic nonsense.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see this as bigotry, and I think it's a discussion that needs to take place. For example, if Bruce can self identify as Caitlyn, why cannot Rachel Dolezal self identify as African American? Ilsa's point is not unreasonable: Bruce Jenner has led most of adult life as a famous white male athlete. I think the post should stand.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:50 PM

26. I can't believe that ball of hatred

 

and bigotry was let stand.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #26)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:04 PM

52. There is no hatred towards her or anyone transgendered.

I stated facts about women where one-third are raped in their lifetimes and the fear and trauma and healing that occurs for 1/3 of the female population. Only half of pregnancies are planned. How many women in the unplanned group consider abortion and how to safely get it? Or do they wish they'd miscarry? Or do they resign themselves to this and carry on?

Jenner missed out on a lot of big things that are a part of our culture of most women's lives. And I hope it's all rainbows for her going forward. Yet she identifies as a woman and we accept that. Why can't a person who has spent a part of their lives in the African American culture say they identify with it? Maybe she shouldn't if she wasn't treated as a Black woman. I think it's a worthwhile discussion, whether it's gender or race.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #52)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:08 PM

65. The difference between being forced to live a lie and choosing to do so is huge

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #52)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:09 PM

68. That was not directed at you.

 

I was responding to the fact that the OP did not get hidden.


The OP did not, and brought it up in a way that had so many dog whistles it's a wonder the dogs in my neighborhood aren't barking.

EDIT: Oh I see that someone tried to have your post hidden.

Who the fuck let the OP stand is what I want to know!?

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Response to Aerows (Reply #68)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:11 PM

72. Thanks. I think thrashing it out clarifies

the big issue and why this is emotional for people. Gender, culture, perceptions, choices.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #68)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 09:00 PM

286. It's disgusting that it gets to stand. Where the hell are we?

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Response to Action_Patrol (Reply #286)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 09:53 PM

294. Not the DU I am

 

familiar with.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #26)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:26 PM

170. The board makes a lot of the right noises about trans issues,

but the bigotry is right there under the surface, quietly lurking.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #170)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:39 PM

182. Well

 

If I'm "making the right noises" but have bigotry under the surface, quietly lurking, I'd sure appreciate being confronted on it.

I thought the OP was heinous for a number of reasons. It's difficult to get nuance from people's posts, but the OP was pretty much a 2x4.

That said, even people that believe themselves to be open-minded can have blind spots. Sometimes huge, gaping ones. Addressing them with the person is the way to go provided it isn't blatantly mean spirited as the OP was.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #170)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:49 AM

344. It's not so quiet the last year or so.

I get your point, but it's not quiet at all any more. People know they can outright be as bigoted as they want and get away with it. It's disgusting.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #26)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:03 PM

205. What hatred?

These are questions many of us have about changing identities and what it all means.

The more we can talk about these ideas and wrestle towards understanding, the better off we all will be going forward.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #205)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:23 PM

212. The OP used to mean Original Post, as in initial post

 

of a thread, now it appears that it has morphed into something different, I guess ... post that spawned sub threads.

I vociferously object to the dog whistle style of the O(riginal) P(ost). It plays into too many RW memes that have been circulating everywhere - gleeful posts of "Oh look liberals call that man a woman and now they object to a white woman claiming to be black HA HA HA" when there is an ocean of difference.

1. RD knew she was white, because she sued Howard University for discrimination against her for being white. She's also a serial liar, fabricating police reports that she was being targeted racially, all of them not passing the smell test. That harms those that are legitimately victims of hate crimes.

2. Jenner has always been female. Gender identity issues affect 1:2000 people. It has been around since civilization. If you want some citations, I'll offer them, but suffice to say, it has been documented since society could be documented. That is different than race, and certainly different from lying repeatedly and making up false stories that you were targeted by race for harassment.

Hope that clears some of it up for you, but to be honest, I'm just sickened by the whole right wing "Ha ha ha, we've got those liberals now, transgender people are fake just like this white woman pretending to be black ha ha ha."

To see this shit on DU makes me ill.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:02 PM

42. Good God, why the hell was this WBW nonsense allowed to stand?

 

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #42)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:13 PM

75. Why in the hell

 

was the OP allowed to stand, because it was littered with RW bullshit memes.

THAT'S what I want to know.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:03 PM

47. I would have voted to hide.

 

The OP is hateful to both African Americans and transgender people, IMO.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #47)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:04 PM

51. +1

The whole comparison is, and I really think that's by design.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #51)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:05 PM

55. It's a right wing meme all over the wingnut blogs and forums.

 

That it made it's way here is revealing, IMO.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #55)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:06 PM

60. Also revealing

are the names of people pushing the meme here.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:04 PM

54. juror #1, oy nt

 

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:50 PM

189. Juror one is a fucking transphobe. This board is crawling with them. N/t

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #189)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:56 PM

199. It floors me when they say shit like that.

I'm old, white, and male and I'm STILL not as bigoted as that person. Ugh.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #199)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:00 PM

201. What fucking drives me up the wall is they are tolerated here. This is not a safe place...

On the internet for transgender people.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #201)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 08:21 PM

272. but do not go anywhere

STAY AND FIGHT THESE TRANSPHOBIC PIECES OF SHIT

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #189)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:02 PM

320. Yes. The LGBT community on DU has been getting victimized repeatedly

by them for years.

This board is most definitely crawling with homophobes and transphobes.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 08:20 PM

271. OMG

it is seriously fucking SAD, the DUers who claim to not know the difference - IT IS BIGOTRY!!!!!!

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #22)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:48 AM

343. Juror #1 just added to the transphobia.

Maybe they will come out themselves in this thread, so I can put them on permanent ignore, never having to see their drivel again.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:58 PM

34. Thank you. Your make very good points. n/t

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Response to whathehell (Reply #34)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:05 PM

56. please see my comment to aerow below. nt

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #56)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:32 PM

118. I saw it and I agree with you.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:40 PM

135. And Jenner is the only trans woman ever since the history of mankind...

 

Ever think about those who identify, those poor and not privileged people who are trans and because of who they are have been picked on all their lives?

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #135)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:45 PM

140. I think about them a lot, actually.

Their options are limited and few. Their actual choices can be heartbreaking. And some people are so selfish that they don't want their group insurance or medicaid to pay for reassignment surgery or transition therapy.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:51 PM

146. So you think feminine men have never been raped?

Last edited Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:28 PM - Edit history (1)

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Or that people who expressed the slightest transgender interest can't be LEGALLY discriminated against? Or that you can't be legally EVICTED simply for being trans?

Or that they can't be harassed at work? Or that you can't die from undergoing the operations they do? AND YOU THINK TRANSPEOPLE DON'T GET TREATED WITH HOSTILITY?![/font]


  • Over half of all LGBTQ murders are committed against transwomen. Murder rate for trans people is 1/12.

  • Over 41% of all trans people have ATTEMPTED suicide

  • Just trying to get a job outs you during the background check

  • Transpeople can be legally FIRED and EVICTED just for being trans in some states

  • Transpeople can who are homeless (because they were legally evicted) can be denied access to homeless shelters

  • Transpeople have been killed just for being telling someone they were trans

  • Over 21% of transpeople get incarcerated and transpeople of color have a 47% chance

  • Once in jail transpeople are often thrown in with the sex they DON't identify with and are sexually assaulted (1/3)

  • To avoid sexual assault those that are NOT thrown in with the general population are put in solidary confinement...something used for punishment and often called torture.

  • The AVERAGE lifespan for a transwoman is only 30-32years of age.

  • Nearly half Transpeople who go to the police for help often are mistreated just for asking for help.



[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]No, YOU and the jury that let your remarks stand don't understand anything. Least of all privilege, especially given your transphobic remarks.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/cissexism-in-the-world/
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/01/transmisogyny/
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/11/misconceptions-trans-ally-understand/[/font]

edit: Jury please see http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6848619

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #146)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:54 PM

196. +100,000,000

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #146)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:50 PM

225. I'm not the one making claims of identifying with a

Specific group. She was. One is rooted in genetics. The other was rooted in a cultural preference.

I never said transgendered people faced no discrimination or fear of persecution. I understand that he is a she. I don't care if she has a penis or vagina unlike the disgusting OP. I'm happy she has found her way out and wish she had been able to do it sooner, like some other people I've known, who were much happier after their transition.

I'll forgive you for your viciousness and namecalling which I could have alerted on. I've witnessed white male privilege and both racial and gender discrimination for almost sixty years.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #225)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:18 PM

248. Alert away

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Assuming the jury does decide to hide, it would be a worthy hide.

You were trying to undermine her gender. The comments about rape, periods, and pregnancy all show that, and the comment about her having been "a privileged white man for most of her life" prove it beyond doubt.

There was no sincere wish to look at the privileges she has benefited from. No mention of how she would have gotten support and financial backing she needed to become an olympian, where a black man might not be so lucky. No mention of how women athletes don't have the same opportunities that male athletes have.

No, you chose to focus on things that call her gender into question. Not to mention there was no reason or need to bring up the privileges she may or may not have experienced in the first place. It was totally offtopic and out of the blue. Not a word about Rachel Dolezal and why the comparison was apt or not.

And you thought the OP was so disgusting that you didn't say a thing? But instead called out Ms Jenner instead? Not one word against the OP in your reply to them, but boy were you quick to criticize Ms. Jenner for....what? Existing?

No, I don't buy it. I won't be intimidated and I would be proud of the hide.[/font]

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #146)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:56 PM

266. These statistics are pretty heartbreaking. :( nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #266)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 08:23 PM

273. I know

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]And then for there to be people on DU attacking a trans woman on DU (if any a place that should be supportive of trans issues) is almost too much to bare.

That is why I won't play nice w/ these posters anymore.[/font]

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #146)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:20 PM

305. THANK YOU. OUTSTANDING POST.

LostOne4Ever, It is an honor to meet you.
Can't say it better than you did.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:33 PM

7. Dumb talking point.

 

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:34 PM

8. Confusing bluntness and adolescent petulance is the first mistake. Just sayin', part two...

Confusing bluntness and adolescent petulance is the first mistake. Just sayin', part two...

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:36 PM

10. gender dysphoria is pretty much a universal experience across countries and cultures

and many studies suggest it has real biological genetic underpinnings. Racial dysphoria can't make such claims to date. Indeed human concept of "Race" is more a logical construct than a solid genetic term.

This appears to be a rather small subset issue for one woman than a huge issue that may effect 1:2000 or more human beings.

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Response to Johonny (Reply #10)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:39 PM

131. Thank you. This was the most

Clarifying post for me. The biological science is behind this now, not just cultural issues.


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Response to Johonny (Reply #10)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:50 PM

144. However many, many people try to assimulate themselves into another culture.

 

It is kinda the US identity...everyone tries to assimulate into US cultures f4om other cultures. My parents, for example. Because of my father's assimilated so hard he became a Cubs fan, an affliction he passed to me.

My dad called himself American. The second he opened h8s mouth you knew he was not born here. But American he became.

She essentially assimilated into African American culture.

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #144)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:33 PM

179. I can move to Nairobi. I can learn Bantu culture.

I can master Swahili. I can dress like a native, eat local foods, cook with local ingredients with traditional spices, read best-selling African novels and totally assimilate into the culture of Kenya.

Ain't one bit of that will justify me sewing box braids to my head, hitting the spay-tan booth, and calling myself black. I could almost certainly call myself a Kenyan without anybody saying otherwise, but black? Nuh-uh. I don't get to steal that most basic identity.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #179)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:37 PM

180. Steal?

 

Some Indian dude comes to the US, becomes a success, buys a big house and a country club membership, marries a local, wears Ralph Lauren clothes....is stealing Amercan culture.

Got it.

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #180)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:44 PM

185. You misread.

I can't steal their racial identity. I can become part of their culture, but I don't get to call myself black. The Indian dude certainly becomes American -- he doesn't become white.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #185)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:55 PM

197. Race, ethnicity and gender are all social constructs

 

You are who you are, biological machinery be damned.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #185)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:00 AM

365. Americans are not always white

But then not all Kenyans are black. Though it is more complex in that white Africans are leftover from colonialism. Whereas in the US it is more a case of immigration by individuals.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #179)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:52 PM

317. Nailed it

 

You can subsume the culture, but it doesn't change basic identity.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:36 PM

11. Uh, nope. Big fail

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:39 PM

13. Caitlyn Jenner IS a woman.

There's no 'can be', it's what she is. She is already a complete woman, no matter what body parts she may or may not have.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #13)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:47 PM

20. Can't we say the same for Dolezal, "no matter what body parts she may or may not have"?

 

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Response to uhnope (Reply #20)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:50 PM

27. .

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Response to uhnope (Reply #20)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:51 PM

28. No. nt.

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Response to uhnope (Reply #20)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:03 PM

46. I honestly do not see much of a difference

If one is truly what one "feels" themselves to be, why should it stop at gender?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #46)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:07 PM

61. yes, funny how that POV is met with...

 



but that's the Internet I guess

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Response to uhnope (Reply #61)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:21 PM

94. Your oppression and self-styled martyrdom will be given all the credibility they indeed, warrant...

Your oppression and self-styled martyrdom will be given all the credibility they indeed, warrant... I'm guessing that's the internet too.

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Response to uhnope (Reply #61)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:35 PM

312. Because it's not about your point of view.

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Response to uhnope (Reply #61)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:32 AM

373. Uhnope, Uh, remember me? Who supported your many posts before? Then you get a time out and come back

Last edited Wed Jun 17, 2015, 06:55 PM - Edit history (1)

and do this? What's up?

You're free to post any opinion piece you choose and don't need my or anyone else's okay. But you are offending a lot of people with real life problems dealing with being POC and differently percieved that Putin is currently oppressing.

You edited or deleted before when I told you before it was not a good idea. I think you should delete this as it serves no useful purpose.

Rachel played both sides of this for her own profit and could pass as either race with tanning lotion and a hair perm. Her actions are that of a grifter, not a person who is confused.

Jenner may have been confused, but only by being denied what her mind is telling her. People adapt to survive when they don't fit what others think they should be. The birth certificate said male. Her mind and heart said female.

A black person can't change their color no more than a white person can become black by wishful thinking. The struggles Jenner has gone through were life-long, but you deal with what life gave you. This Wiki entry, which is edited, shows Jenner is considering losing that penis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitlyn_Jenner

I have a FTM BNL. The surgery is terrible. The doctors told him, after years of counseling, that in the last trimester of pregnancy his mother made too much testosterone and that effected his identity, but it was much too late to affect his body.

Whether people accept it or not, if you know someone well, you know it's not a fad or choice. We all knew something was up. He was not only into women, but he was hyper masculine in all of his interests. He wasn't doing that to please anyone, it caused him a lot of conflict and anger as people treated him like a freak. He knew he was not a woman, but there he was, stuck.

He gained no advantage from this situation, in fact the whole thing cost a fortune to go through it. Some people cannot afford it and end up in limbo.

He, like Jenner, took some time to figure out what was going on, and thought he was a lesbian but came to accept that wasn't what he was. He didn't want anyone to make love to him as a woman. There was not one feminine thing about him his entire life. But it is easier for a woman to wear men's clothes than the other way around.

What Rachel did was a choice, and she changed her choice of race when it advantaged her. It was choice proven by her actions, suing Howard University as a white person for discriminationg against whites. She rode on the backlash against affirmative action and played the reverse racism card.

There is a world of difference in these two individuals.

IMO, it's NOOB what is going in these people's lives until they start to affect others. Jenner got divorced when it was apparent that sex as it had been was no longer desireable (and now says he regards himself as an asexual person) and most likely was not enjoying sex for some time.

Gay men married and fathered children to escape the stigma of being gay have not been unknown. But Jenner is not gay. My BNL decided he was not a lesbian. It was not who he really was or felt like. And he had no problem finding women who wanted him before or after the transformation.

Bottom line is that Rachel, when she was identifying as black, it advantaged her.

It did /does not advantage Jenner. I consider the juxaposition of the two situations similar to RW talking points, illogical and dishonest. Don't fall for this.

There have been black people who have lightened their skin. Contrary what I read here at DU about Michael Jackson, the reason he had his skin lighened was not from a desire to 'be white,' but because of a skin condition where patches of skin lost their ability to use melanin and so he was black with white patches on his face.

His skin could not longer utilize melanin to match the rest. I've seen this with black people who have had burns. It's noticeable as in stare worthy noticeable.

He wasn't trying to 'be white,' he was suffering from a disease. Jenner was suffering a disorder where he felt he was in the wrong body. The changes didn't make them more popular or give them anything they could not have had otherwise.

When a woman loses estrogen as her dominant hormone level and her natural supply of testosterone increases in proportion, she may grow hair where it never was, and suffer from male-pattern baldness. Another cause for this effect are diseases or disorders around the ovary or uterus. She is not a happy camper because her body isn't working the way society or she herself wants it to act.

Neither was Jenner nor Jackson's doing what was easier for them.

But Rachel was playing both sides of the fence and making black people look foolish with her rantings, then began lying about her family. She did what helped her whenever it helped her, playing white or black.

She found an easy mark in the black community, as they have accepted people of all hues and races, because they are the default race according to some whites. Not being 'white enough,' is a real term for some white folks.

It's all a very personal matter. I'm disappointed in you and you know how I have defended you on DU.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #373)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:48 AM

378. Well said

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Response to uhnope (Reply #20)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:04 PM

49. No. eom

 

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Response to polly7 (Reply #13)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:42 PM

138. She can be who she wishes...

 

The same science that says the woman isn't black says Jenner isn't a woman.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #138)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:52 PM

148. Which makes no sense at all.

Last edited Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:25 PM - Edit history (1)

What about very, very young children who know they are girls and not boys as their physical traits indicate, or vice versa? Ask a parent of these children if they're 'choosing' it.

What happens when your son tells you he’s really a girl

http://www.macleans.ca/society/health/what-happens-when-your-son-tells-you-hes-really-a-girl/

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Response to polly7 (Reply #148)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:15 PM

208. I'm not arguing the psychology of transgender

 

Nor stating anyone is choosing...physiologically..scientifically... Jenner will be a male until she dies...XY=male

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Response to pipoman (Reply #208)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:25 PM

214. I'm just going to steal this and put it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026847141#post42

markpkessinger (6,177 posts)
42. Not so . . .

Biological sex is physical, but 'gender' encompasses not only biological sex, but also hormonal composition and intrinsic, psychological gender identity. For most people (although not all), their biological sex is fairly discrete. When it comes to hormonal composition, we all have both 'male' and 'female' hormones, and the precise mixture of the twp varies from person to person. AS for psychological gender identity, again, for most of us, it is consistent with our biological sex. But for some, there is a conflict between their gender identity and their biological sex.

There is, however, no such thing as intrinsic racial identity. The very concept of 'race' is entirely socially constructed by our surrounding culture, and to the extent one even has a racial identity, it is one that is externally imposed on a person by his or her culture. We are identified as belonging to one race or another primarily by how we are physically perceived by the surrounding culture. Ms. Dolezal's real offense lay in the fact that she appropriated the outward trappings of a culturally constructed identity which was not authentically her own. What a transgendered person does in adopting the outward appearance of the gender he or she identifies with is to express his or her intrinsic, authentic gender identity. Ms. Doleaal had the option to revert to her white identity at any time, if she had chosen to, simply by shedding the outward appearance of being African American. A transgendered person, however, does not shed his or her intrinsic identity when he or she or she sheds the appearance of the opposite sex.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #214)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 06:20 AM

357. And markpkessinger is an expert in...?

 

A quick search shows that gender and gender identity are the terms we need to define. When I use the term gender, I mean XX and XY chromosomes. With gender identity, I mean the way a person presents himself, herself or theirself to society.

Race, like gender identity, is more fluid than gender/biological sex.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #357)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:33 AM

374. I don't know what she/he is an expert in.

I thought it was a great post, so brought it over from another thread to reply to someone with.

How someone presents themselves to society has nothing to do with how they personally and psychologically identify. There's a great post in this thread that shows how many transgender people commit suicide, lose jobs, are discriminated against in every way, bullied, murdered - of course it makes sense for those without support to identify who they know they are inside 'differently' to society.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847692

I don't use XX and XY to determine gender, simply because, as another poster in this thread said "it involves a lot more than chromosomes, of which there are a lot more biological options than XY or XX, and an infinite variety of ways those chromosomes are physically expressed."

This is an interesting read I saw yesterday:

The Transgender Brain

Or “It’s all in your head – no, really!”


http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/


And, some quick links I found on studies being done:

Transsexual differences caught on brain scan:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.VYF_xflVhBd

BU researchers find biological basis for transgender identity:

http://dailyfreepress.com/2015/02/18/bu-researchers-find-biological-basis-for-transgender-identity/


It's been shown over and over that even very young children know they are not who their body says they are externally.

What happens when your son tells you he’s really a girl

http://www.macleans.ca/society/health/what-happens-when-your-son-tells-you-hes-really-a-girl/


I'm just trying to learn more about all of this but it's obvious to me, trans men and women are not putting themselves out there for ridicule, scorn, discrimination and hate because they're experimenting, trying to take advantage of being seen as another gender, tired of their own bodies ........ or whatever other garbage people accuse them of doing. It's very real, with life or death consequences. I'm not sure why anyone would want to minimize it with some of the stupidity and bigotry seen even here on this forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6850280





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Response to polly7 (Reply #374)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 02:43 PM

411. As I said, it is the definition of our terms

 

You are using the term gender in the way others use gender identity. The presence of an XX or XY chromosome determines gender. Other factors, some also genetic, determine gender identity.

You stated, "How someone presents themselves to society has nothing to do with how they personally and psychologically identify."

I would bet money that Caitlyn Jenner would disagree.

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Response to Android3.14 (Reply #411)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:04 PM

414. I know what you said.

I posted what I believe, and some links that have helped me understand.

Here's another great post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6852244

Why would Caitlyn Jenner disagree with that comment of mine that you quoted? She spent decades presenting herself to society as something she wasn't, and it was probably torturous for her. Do you believe that all those transgender people struggling in a world filled with bigotry towards them are actually all able to present themselves to their families, workplace, society in general, in the way they wish to? I wish they could ........ the statistics posted here in this thread don't bear that out, though.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #414)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 04:43 PM

427. Allow me to clarify

 

If Caitlyn did not identify as a woman, she would never have presented herself to society as one. Therefore, how she presents herself to society had everything to do with how they personally and psychologically identify.

Posting links has little to do with defining terms. Until we can agree on what gender, gender identity, race and whether race even exists genetically, the discomfort you feel about someone who appears white while claiming to be black is simple prejudice just as some people may feel discomfort when a person with an XY chromosome presents herself as a woman are prejudiced.

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Response to pipoman (Reply #138)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:10 PM

207. There is no science that will tell you if someone is 'black.'

Race is not biologically detectable - there is no test for it.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #13)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 04:36 AM

352. Title IX

Federal inspector: "Coach, you spent all of your athletic scholarships on the football team. You are supposed to reserve X per cent of your scholarships for women's athletics."

Football coach: "I am in compliance. My whole offensive line identifies as female."

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Response to 1939 (Reply #352)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:01 AM

379. This isn't funny at all.

What if it were your child struggling with it, would you support him/her living a life true to themselves, or deny it and perhaps watch them slide deeper and deeper into hopelessness and possible suicide? Please read this before you make any more jokes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847692

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Response to 1939 (Reply #352)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:06 AM

381. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh wait that's not funny

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #381)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 08:52 PM

451. Not meant to be funny

Just a slippery slope of everyone being able to "declare" what they are.

It could be sexual or racial.

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Response to 1939 (Reply #451)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:23 PM

453. Yeah, no.

 

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:39 PM

14. Nice post, Anne Lamott!

 

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:39 PM

15. I suggest you read this piece by a black woman. It tells you precisely why

 

Rachel A. Dolezal, who stepped down Monday as president of the Spokane, Wash., chapter of the N.A.A.C.P., could have been a powerful ally to African-Americans. The participation of white allies has always been important to anti-racism work. By most accounts, she is educated about black cultures and an advocate for black causes. But empathy evolved into impersonation. And Ms. Dolezal’s subterfuge, made easier by the legacy of racism in America, undermines the very people she claims to support.j

<snip>

Some people have pointed to this strange case as an illustration that race is malleable. I submit that Ms. Dolezal is a reminder that it is not. Racial identity cannot be fluid as long as the definition of whiteness is fixed. And historically, the path to whiteness has been extremely narrow.

The “one-drop rule,” which, for much of American history, legally defined as black anyone with a black ancestor, was used to keep black people from adopting whiteness. Ironically, it has made it easier for Ms. Dolezal to claim blackness without others questioning the assertion. If they are not themselves of a similar hue to Ms. Dolezal, many black people watching her story unfold can recognize in her features a cousin, parent or grandparent. African-Americans vary in appearance from light-skinned to coal black, straight- to curly-haired, keen- to broad-featured, and every possible combination in between.

<snip>

In the days since this story broke, many people have been quick to point out that race is merely a social construct — as if that fact changes the very real impact of race on the lives of minorities. The persistence of systemic racism means there are penalties for blackness in America.

<snip>

Being able to shift one’s race is a privilege. Ms. Dolezal’s masquerade illustrates that however much she may empathize with African-Americans, she is not one, because black people in America cannot shed their race. We cannot proclaim the black race a nebulous concept, while strictly policing whiteness and the privileges of that identity. I will accept Ms. Dolezal as black like me only when society can accept me as white like her.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/rachel-dolezals-harmful-masquerade.html

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:41 PM

18. Everyone has a gender

so it is not unique to a group of people, so if a person changes their gender identity, physically or otherwise they are not usurping an entire racial identity from that group that is not theirs. That's just my own opinion, or how I see it.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:47 PM

21. Shame on the jurors who let this stand.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:54 PM

31. Without doubt

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:58 PM

36. Blunderous questions sometimes need answering. This one was.

 

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #36)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:04 PM

50. This IS a discussion board, we should be able to discuss

Not just quickly sweep away something that is very new to a lot of people. I don't see this as a phobia or hateful thing, maybe it was an honest question. I don't know what's in the OP's heart.

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #50)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:06 PM

58. To say of a transgender person "while still sporting a penis" is transphobic.

It can be discussed without being worded like that. People are not defined by their body parts, and that's really insensitive to transgender people. There are tons of reasons why someone might not choose to or be able to have that surgery, and it's just nobody's business.

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #50)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:57 PM

155. The OP may have That dreaded Agenda©. But if it's a slow-moving target, hit it.

 

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:32 PM

120. It makes me wonder

 

if I'm on the wrong damn forum.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #120)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:34 PM

121. No, the 5 who voted to leave and the OP are, though.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #121)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:43 PM

139. No doubt! n/t

 

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #121)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:59 PM

158. NAILED IT! (nt)

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Response to Aerows (Reply #120)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:28 PM

309. You aren't.

I hear you loud and clear.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:18 PM

162. Why?

 

This is a discussion forum. And the post has obviously generated considerable discussion. Is DU so delicate that controversial issues can't be discussed?

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Response to philosslayer (Reply #162)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:30 PM

173. It's a transphobic and racist right wing rude and insensitive dig.

That's why.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #173)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:30 PM

175. A jury disagrees with you

 

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:19 PM

164. In other words, "Shame on the jurors who disagree with me on this topic" nt

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #164)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:33 PM

178. I would be interested in reading the reasons duers voted to leave. Were they unclear on the

awfulness of "sporting a penis" bit? Was the alerter not clear enough in explaining? Or do they think "sporting a penis" is a fine description of what makes something a man?

I would like to hear why they voted that way.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847710

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:53 PM

263. absolutely correct

BIGOTS!!!

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:45 AM

385. thank you. indeed. what an ignorant transphobic op.

 

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:49 PM

23. Because I don't want that batshit insane woman claiming to speak for me and my culture.

Clear enough?

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #23)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:01 PM

41. now she's "batshit insane"? Calling down Johnny Otis!

 

Expecting any African American to be speaking for all of the black community is an essentially racist notion. So why put that on Dolezal? She never said that.


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Response to uhnope (Reply #41)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:11 PM

73. Look into her past...She's a conwoman of the highest degree

and she's had like 10 different versions of her backstory, which are probably all wrong...Why would anybody trust a woman who has spent more years of her life deceiving everyone instead of being true to herself?

If she really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really wants to help out the Af'Ram Community, there's no reason why she can't do it as a white woman...Believe it or not, there are some white folks out there who have dedicated their lives to helping Black Americans, and they were able to do it without rejecting their own ethnicity...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #23)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:11 PM

74. I wonder if she has a mental disorder

It's really a weird situation. Her brothers were black, her husband black, and her kids black. She went to Howard and was, by all accounts, a very good artist drawing African/African American subjects. She earned a degree in African American studies (I think) and was, also by all accounts, very good at her job at the NAACP.

It's just a really weird deal and makes me wonder if she is "trans-racial" or is she guilty of "Stolen Privilege" -- that is, seeking the legal/financial benefits of being black, while having a white upbringing.

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #23)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:18 PM

211. And yet is that really different?

I don't really appreciate Caitlyn Jenner defining being a woman as giggling with girlfriends, showing off boobs, and painting her nails, all while never having had to face the decades of cultural consequences of being a woman.

I'm not really worked up about it, but I do see a parallel to the Dolezal situation.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #211)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:58 AM

394. If Caitlyn Jenner for the sake of argument

1. Completely hid her past life as a male and reinvented a new backstory where she's been female her entire life, and 2. Rose up through the ranks to be president of the regional NOW chapter, *then* you might be on to something...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #394)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 06:35 PM

445. Good point. n/t

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #23)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:42 AM

391. I agree she is insane

I have a sister who is a pathological liar - and not what people like to call a pathological liar - one that has actually been diagnosed by more than one professional.

My mother and I watched this story together and we both looked at each other and said at the same time - WENDY! -- that's my sister, obviously.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:49 PM

24. Hateful

 

And just wrong on so many levels. Really?

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:52 PM

29. The difference between being forced to live a lie and deliberately choosing to do so...

 

...seems pretty fucking obvious to me.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #29)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:59 PM

37. I can't post what I would like to say to the OP

 

because I *know* it would get hidden. You nailed it, though, in a far nicer and succinct way than I would have.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #37)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:22 PM

96. If it gets hidden, I'll copy, paste and repost.

If it gets hidden, I'll copy, paste and repost. Hopefully, another poster would do the same after I get hidden. And so on.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #96)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:25 PM

102. I'm not going to go there.

 

I just can't believe a jury let that OP fucking stand.

And 7-0. Something is not right in DU-land today, or maybe I'm just on the wrong forum.

ETA: I completely agree with LizziePoppet, and wholeheartedly FUCKING DISAGREE with the OP (Original, top thread post, that's what it used to mean), their premise, and the insinuations - if I somehow lead anybody to believe that I thought it was okay, please allow me to vehemently disabuse all of that notion.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #102)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:37 PM

128. You were clear in the direction of your frustration, and I completely agree with your sentiments.

You were crystal clear in the direction of your well-deserved frustration, and I completely agree with your sentiments.

I'll let ignorance (lack of relevant knowledge) off the hook. Stupid though, well... stupid is just enough knowledge to push buttons. And I'm certain OP is pushing buttons for jollies.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #128)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:40 PM

132. I hoped so

 

but I confused someone upthread, so I didn't want to make the same mistake twice and give the impression that I hitched my boat to the Titanic of fail that was the OP.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #128)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:40 AM

345. That is the key to the whole thing.

There are some people who are playing along like oh, it's a legitimate question, blah blah blah, but no. Those of us who know it when we see it know they doing it to push buttons, just like Juror #1 above. Both the OP and Juror #1 are as transparent as polished cast acrylic. They can try to play ignorant, but the fact that they worded their comments they way they did shows they are pushing people's buttons. They know what they are doing. We do too.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #29)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:01 PM

40. Thank you. That is a good comparisin

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #29)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:04 PM

48. Efficiently & symmetrically put, as always. nt ^^^

 

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 03:59 PM

38. Previous alert lets this stand 2-5. Here are full jury results. WTF


ALERTER'S COMMENTS

just sayin'

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 01:46 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Hurtful, rude and insensitive.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: fair question, I guess.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: hiding this POS just sayin' . To begin with penis or no Caitlyn is a woman, Rachel is white. Bit of a difference in those two things.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Perhaps a penetrating remark, but I'm lost in the forest of illogic.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #38)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:02 PM

43. And Id like to know who the fuck thought this hateful bullshit was acceptable.

 

Wonder if they'll be big enough to join the OP in the ignorant bigots club.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #43)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:34 PM

122. Why was the OP hateful?

 

Please explain.

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Response to tabasco (Reply #122)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:55 PM

153. Its been explained numerous times in this thread.

 

No further explanation is needed. Seriously.

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Response to bunnies (Reply #153)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:25 PM

169. I only see a bunch of flaming, no explanations.

 

Perhaps you can direct me to a post # with a good explanation of why the OP was "hateful."

Race and gender. Typically considered immutable physical characteristics. But transgender and trans-racial both involve the human brain moreso than body parts or skin color. I believe the comparison is fair and a question about the differences between the two conditions is not necessarily hateful.

Of course, I have no information on the OP's intent, but IMO, the post on its face does not appear to be hateful.

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Response to tabasco (Reply #169)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:16 PM

209. Race is not an "immutable physical characteristic."

Last edited Tue Jun 16, 2015, 08:11 PM - Edit history (1)

It has no basis in biology whatsoever, there is no test for it, you cannot tell race from DNA or genetics.

Sex is also not the physical binary we treat it as -- there are a lot more biological options than XY or XX, and an infinite variety of ways those chromosomes are physically expressed.

This argument cannot legitimately be made into "it's all about biology."

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Response to DeadLetterOffice (Reply #209)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:01 PM

232. +1000. nt.

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Response to DeadLetterOffice (Reply #209)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 07:55 AM

361. How you LOOK determines your race in America

Rachel Dolezal did not grow up with a black parent. Her grandparents weren't. Her great grandparents weren't.

She was a blonde haired light eyed little girl in American in the 1970's and 1980's with TWO white parents and with that. . .

She can't speak to the experiences of growing up black in the Reagan Era in the United States of Amerikkka. That man -he hated us. Just hated us.

Talk all you want as a white person about us Rach - do what you want.

But that doesn't mean any black or black with a white BIOLOGICAL parent American has to take her seriously.

We don't have to because we know better than her. *nose stuck up in the air* <-- Not at you - at her. She ought to be ashamed of herself for insulting all of the women who gave birth or adopted children that looked nothing like them and raised them to be happy whole adults without pretending to be black, Asian, Asian Indian, Central American, etc. etc.

If anything - she's making the argument to me that perhaps when two white people pro-create - well - their children are going to have problems. I mean - it's okay but they shouldn't have children because its too hard on the children

^That's something I heard growing up quite a bit in the 1970's and 1980's in Amerikka. It's funny - one girl J.M. - her parents taught her that - she's a total loser now and I'm not.^ She has no excuses as she started out in the same town as me, with the same education - she just chose to not be exceptional. Maybe it was her upbringing?

You can check out the AA Group - yesterday she pretty much said a non black person can't really be the mother to a black child - it wouldn't work. Bull shit. I call bullshit. And she's already fucked her brothers up for life with that bullshit. She's going to turn them into bigots against white people. You just wait.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #361)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:02 AM

388. +1000

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Response to DeadLetterOffice (Reply #209)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 10:57 AM

387. How can gender be fluid? It's not that way in the rest of the natural world - biology, botany,

zoology, physiological, etc. We are told that we are to rationally, scientifically look at the world and when people do, they are screamed at for being hateful and bigoted.

We live in a Duality on many many levels and for 90% +/- of those who identify with their gonads*, male = sperm, female = ovaries/egg, and the reproduction implications that result from that. That is the way it is for flowers, trees, lions, and so on and so forth. We can't both be expected to look at the larger world in some aspects and then narrow it in others, which is some ways is completely rejecting the Nature we live in. See the confusion?

The implications are, if the broader world accepts and redefines gender, narrowing it into fluidity, then we cannot do on other levels. Everything is then open to interpretation. Micro, macro.

Who is it that gets to choose these things anyway?


*gonad - noun, Anatomy
a sex gland in which gametes are produced; an ovary or testis.

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Response to Hestia (Reply #387)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 01:08 PM

401. If you are truly interested in understanding the idea...

... may I suggest you read the following piece called Understanding Gender
https://www.genderspectrum.org/quick-links/understanding-gender/


Biological Gender (sex) includes physical attributes such as external genitalia, sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, and internal reproductive structures. At birth, it is used to assign sex, that is, to identify individuals as male or female. Gender on the other hand is far more complicated. It is the complex interrelationship between an individual’s sex (gender biology), one’s internal sense of self as male, female, both or neither (gender identity) as well as one’s outward presentations and behaviors (gender expression) related to that perception, including their gender role. Together, the intersection of these three dimensions produces one’s authentic sense of gender, both in how people experience their own gender as well as how others perceive it.

Western culture has come to view gender as a binary concept, with two rigidly fixed options: male or female, both grounded in a person’s physical anatomy. When a child is born, a quick glance between the legs determines the gender label that the child will carry for life. But even if gender is to be restricted to basic biology, a binary concept still fails to capture the rich variation that exists. Rather than just two distinct boxes, biological gender occurs across a continuum of possibilities. This spectrum of anatomical variations by itself should be enough to disregard the simplistic notions of a binary gender system.

But beyond anatomy, there are multiple domains defining gender. In turn, these domains can be independently characterized across a range of possibilities. Instead of the static, binary model produced through a solely physical understanding of gender, a far richer tapestry of biology, gender expression, and gender identity intersect in a multidimensional array of possibilities. Quite simply, the gender spectrum represents a more nuanced, and ultimately truly authentic model of human gender.

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Response to DeadLetterOffice (Reply #401)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 01:23 PM

403. Great information! TY. nt.

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Response to tabasco (Reply #169)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:45 AM

346. Tell you what.

You can tell us your gender and we'll refuse to address you as that gender from here on out, ALWAYS making a point to refuse to address you as that gender. After a while, trust me, you'll get sick of that shit. THAT is why it is hateful. Transgender people do not deserve that kind of disrespect.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #38)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:02 PM

44. I alerted but I didn't even get that much info back. n/t

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Response to gollygee (Reply #44)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:47 PM

142. I alerted on it too

 

I didn't get anything back, either. I guess if it is alerted on and juried, there is no further response.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #142)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 03:48 AM

347. That always irritates me when I alert on something

and I get a message just saying a jury let it stand. Ok, so someone else alerted first, but it doesn't give the jury results and comments. Just because someone wasn't the first to alert something shouldn't mean we are not allowed to see what the results were for the first person to alert.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #38)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:05 PM

57. Check your inbox

That it was left is disturbing.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #38)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:14 PM

77. That's fine...This talking point was circulating on Conservative Twitter 3-4 days ago

and I'm more than happy to slap it down here in one decisive stroke

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #38)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:17 PM

86. That this post was allowed to stand

 

is a disgrace to DU. I'm shocked I can't hear dogs barking as I speak it had so damn many dog whistles.

It plays right into all the RW memes.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #38)


Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:03 PM

45. OFFS nt

 

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:04 PM

53. I really hate this place sometimes.

 

Thank you for reminding me why.

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Response to NuclearDem (Reply #53)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:56 PM

326. +1

 

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:06 PM

59. I find the dual levels of bigotry in such a suggestion palpable.

 

Wow, insulting to both African Americans AND transgendered people all in a very small OP.

Congratulations.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #59)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:27 PM

107. It's incredibly

 

fucked up that it was allowed to stand. Enough dog whistles that we shouldn't be able to hear for all the barks.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:07 PM

62. In the old days we'd say

IBTL

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Response to Dyedinthewoolliberal (Reply #62)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:09 PM

69. Check above, a jury actually voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

 

The bigotry of both the OP and the jury makes me want to

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #69)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:14 PM

79. Here are results on the OP, 2-5. The 1-6 was another post

I was not on the jury, did alert though.


ALERTER'S COMMENTS

just sayin'

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 01:46 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Hurtful, rude and insensitive.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: fair question, I guess.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: hiding this POS just sayin' . To begin with penis or no Caitlyn is a woman, Rachel is white. Bit of a difference in those two things.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Perhaps a penetrating remark, but I'm lost in the forest of illogic.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #69)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:14 PM

80. No, that was a post in the thread. The OP was a 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #80)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:16 PM

82. Okay, five bigots on a jury instead of six.

 

Still, too many bigots on one jury.

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #82)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:28 PM

110. Jury results

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:22 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Okay, five bigots on a jury instead of six.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6847444

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster is calling other DU posters bigots because he/she doesn't like their jury votes. This is definitely rude and violates CS.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:25 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is kind of meta. But it does not name anyone as no one knows who the jurors are.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Awwww....did a bigot get there feewings hurted? I bet I could guess who.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #110)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:36 PM

125. More vote to hide a post calling bigots out than the bigoted post? Juries can be odd

Thank you for leaving this one, guess some take exception act bluntly being called out

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #125)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:37 PM

129. Notice the hides had nothing to say?

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Response to zappaman (Reply #129)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:39 PM

130. That I did

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #69)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:20 PM

92. I'm late to the party

again

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Response to MohRokTah (Reply #69)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:23 PM

97. Yes, which tells you a lot of people here do not view her question as "bigotry".

and neither do I.

When did we all start getting so afraid, of QUESTIONS??

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Response to whathehell (Reply #97)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:52 PM

190. "When did we all start getting so afraid, of QUESTIONS??"



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Response to handmade34 (Reply #190)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:26 PM

217. The OP is in the form of a question, is it not?

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Response to whathehell (Reply #217)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 06:47 PM

223. I was trying

to emphasize your point… obviously, I didn't do it well

this issue has really struck nerves and I believe a robust discussion is needed (w/o the hate would be optimal)

we have multi levels of perception, awareness, opinion and education here and open discussion can be extremely beneficial for some

too often I see topics that deserve discussion turn into hate fests, because of strong opinion, instead of opportunities to inform, teach, make aware, enlighten, etc…

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Response to whathehell (Reply #217)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 07:23 PM

250. When did you stop beating your significant other?

I'm only asking questions after all.

Just using this to illustrate that some questions are not honest questions, are leading, and biased.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:08 PM

66. We get it.

Transgender makes no sense to you so you reach for the straws.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:10 PM

70. Because she's only black when it's convenient, Dolezal was plenty white when she sued Howard U.

It's not a matter of choice with trans people, I am so sick of seeing this idiotic meme here.

Your op is disgusting and should have been hidden.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #70)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:24 PM

100. I agree

She is harming nobody and just trying to live her life. Much more important things to worry about IMO.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Reply #100)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:29 PM

112. She has harmed both the AA and trans community with her "transracial" bullshit.

She could have embraced AA culture without co opting it.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #112)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:35 PM

123. She as in Jenner

Was going to edit to make that clear but this will do.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Reply #123)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:40 PM

134. Got it!



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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #70)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:30 PM

176. +1000. n/t

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:13 PM

76. What a nasty post.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:17 PM

85. What does the ACLU have to do with this?

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:18 PM

88. What a stupid and mean spirited post

And, it's NOT the white culture freaking out. It's the African American culture who are most upset with this.

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:18 PM

89. Why are white people trying to tell black people to let Rachael Dolezal be black?

 

Whole lotta white privilege going on... Well, I've decided I'm gonna go ahead and be white now. Imma need your support, emotionally and financially. Takes alot of money to bleach the skin and buy all that straight hair.

I expect you all who support Rachael's blackness to support MY whiteness. I'm quite happy that I mad the decision to be white. A BIG weight off my shoulders. Soo, lets get that fund started up soon, kay? Soon as I get about fifty thou, I'm willing to go on ahead and let Rach have my blackness.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #89)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:24 PM

101. I don't think this breaks down on racial lines

People see seem to be pro/anti RD 50/50%, regardless of race.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #89)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:25 PM

103. lol you got it backward. The NAACP was fine with Dolezal. White conservatives are mocking her

 

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Response to uhnope (Reply #103)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:28 PM

109. And you consider yourself in that group?

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Response to uhnope (Reply #103)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:30 PM

115. Again. What does the ACLU have to do with this?

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Response to uhnope (Reply #119)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:36 PM

127. Wow. Would you like to buy a clue? ACLU is not the same thing as NAACP.

You keep using the wrong acronym.

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Response to Liberal Veteran (Reply #127)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:41 PM

136. thx! my point doubled down

 

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Response to uhnope (Reply #119)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:48 PM

143. Not yours, it would seem.

Not yours, it would seem. Keep digging in though... your intransigence is more entertaining than that of the Duck Dynasty fellas.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #89)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:30 PM

114. I'm sure police would be more than happy to oblige black folks they pull over.

 

"Excuse me officer, my internal presentation is that of a white person."

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #114)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:53 PM

149. No shit

 

Maybe black people could start wearing that on a button or on t-shirts and not get gunned down or assaulted.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #114)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 05:18 PM

163. Lol!!!

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #114)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:37 PM

314. Holy fuck that was funny.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #89)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 10:33 PM

310. lol

You rock bravenak.

There's a whole lot of arrogance going on with white people trying to tell black people to let a white person be black.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #310)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 11:52 PM

325. It would be funny if it were not so fucked up.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #89)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 11:39 AM

390. Welcome to whiteness. I hope you like mayonnaise.

 

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #390)

Wed Jun 17, 2015, 06:13 PM

442. I'll learn to like it, my new culture demands nothing less!!

 

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Response to uhnope (Original post)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 04:19 PM

90. You are insulting, transphobic and should self-delete.

 

Utter bullshit.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #90)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 08:24 PM

274. too stupid to see their transphobia

love how they try to hide it under the "aren't they alike" bullshit meme

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Response to Skittles (Reply #274)

Tue Jun 16, 2015, 09:00 PM

285. Also managed to get booted off zir's own thread.

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Response to DeadLetterOffice (Reply #285)

Thu Jun 18, 2015, 12:53 AM

455. I am not fooled by these bigots

not at ALL

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