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Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:30 PM

Guns Don't Deter Crime, Study Finds

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by DonViejo (a host of the General Discussion forum).

"The one thing that would have at least ameliorated the horrible situation in Charleston would have been that if somebody in that prayer meeting had a conceal carry or there had been either an off-duty policeman or an on-duty policeman, somebody with the legal authority to carry a firearm and could have stopped the shooter," presidential candidate Mike Huckabee said in a Fox News interview on June 19.

A new study, however, throws cold water on the idea that a well-armed populace deters criminals or prevents murders. Instead, higher ownership of guns in a state is linked to more firearm robberies, more firearm assaults and more homicide in general. [5 Milestones in Gun Control History]

"We found no support for the hypothesis that owning more guns leads to a drop or a reduction in violent crime," said study researcher Michael Monuteaux, an epidemiologist and professor of pediatrics at Harvard Medical School. "Instead, we found the opposite."

More guns, more gun crime

Numerous studies have found that gun ownership correlates with gun homicide, and homicide by gun is the most common type of homicide in the United States. In 2013, for example, there were 16,121 total homicides in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), and 11,208 of those were carried out with a firearm. (Gun suicides outpace gun homicides by far; in 2013, the CDC recorded 21,175 suicides by firearm, about half of all suicides that year. Contrary to popular belief, suicide is typically an impulsive act, psychiatrists say. Ninety percent of people who attempt suicide once will not go on to complete a suicide later, but a suicide attempt using a gun is far more lethal than other methods.)

http://news.yahoo.com/guns-dont-deter-crime-study-finds-180710261.html#

35 replies, 1916 views

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Arrow 35 replies Author Time Post
Reply Guns Don't Deter Crime, Study Finds (Original post)
liberal N proud Jul 2015 OP
ProfessorGAC Jul 2015 #1
Betty Karlson Jul 2015 #24
ProfessorGAC Jul 2015 #30
Betty Karlson Jul 2015 #32
HFRN Jul 2015 #2
Fred Sanders Jul 2015 #3
onehandle Jul 2015 #4
Takket Jul 2015 #9
erronis Jul 2015 #23
Dark n Stormy Knight Jul 2015 #31
olddots Jul 2015 #5
hack89 Jul 2015 #6
LanternWaste Jul 2015 #8
Orrex Jul 2015 #12
hack89 Jul 2015 #13
Orrex Jul 2015 #15
hack89 Jul 2015 #18
Orrex Jul 2015 #19
hack89 Jul 2015 #20
Orrex Jul 2015 #27
hack89 Jul 2015 #34
DanTex Jul 2015 #7
hack89 Jul 2015 #10
LanternWaste Jul 2015 #11
KamaAina Jul 2015 #14
Matrosov Jul 2015 #16
flamin lib Jul 2015 #17
Ed Suspicious Jul 2015 #21
Fearless Jul 2015 #22
iscooterliberally Jul 2015 #25
Dark n Stormy Knight Jul 2015 #26
Travis_0004 Jul 2015 #28
cherokeeprogressive Jul 2015 #29
iscooterliberally Jul 2015 #33
DonViejo Jul 2015 #35

Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:31 PM

1. But, but. . .America

Why do you hate the constitution?

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:57 PM

24. It's just an amendment. We have abolished other amendments.

 

Like the ban on alcohol?

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Response to Betty Karlson (Reply #24)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:27 PM

30. So, You Admit You Hate The Constitution?

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #30)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:32 PM

32. Unashamedly so.

 

The USA has three types of wannabe-conservatives.

There's the Democrats, who are the wannabe-conservatives that want to take the USA back to the 1990-ies.

There's the GOP, who are the wannabe-conservatives that want to take the USA back to the 1950-ies.

There's the TEA-party, who are the wannabe-conservatives that want to take the country back to the 1850-ies.

But a REAL conservative (like me) would take the country back to the 1750-ies, tear up the constitution, and become British again.

------------------

Too much?

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:33 PM

2. guns dont kill, bullets do nt

 

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:36 PM

3. The White Knight Delusion is strong in gun-lovers. Playing Dungeons and Dragons. With real weapons.

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:39 PM

4. High Gun Ownership Rates Are Strongly Correlated With High Gun Death Rates

Figuring out the dynamics at play in social gun culture, according to Kalesan, will be key to sparking social change about the attitudes and practices that inform gun ownership in the first place. She said educating Americans about the health dangers of having a firearm in their homes will change the way people feel about gun ownership, which in turn could drive laws that make guns more difficult to obtain.

"A public health approach, much like the anti-tobacco effort, is necessary, first to facilitate a social change and then political will to form effective policies,” Kalesan told HuffPost. "We also need research to understand the public health consequences in different communities and to identify effective social interventions in different populations."

For instance, past research has found a link between the rate of household gun ownership and elevated rates of firearm-suicide, despite the fact that gun owners do not have more mental health problems than non-gun owners, nor are they more prone to suicide than non-gun owners. Other studies have found that gun ownership leads to more violent crime in general, as guns tend fall into the wrong hands when stolen or sold on secondary markets.



“In 2013 alone, 33,636 persons were killed using a gun, while 84,258 were shot non-fatally,” said Kalesan. "Those who are injured have a difficult journey during recovery, some remaining paraplegic and injured often with PTSD for the rest of their lives.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/07/02/average-gun-owner-america-gun-violence-study_n_7709884.html

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Response to onehandle (Reply #4)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:04 PM

9. why does that graph hate freedom?

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Response to onehandle (Reply #4)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:51 PM

23. I'd like to see that graph with suicides excluded.

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Response to erronis (Reply #23)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:30 PM

31. Yep, cuz suicides are not at all a problem.

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:43 PM

5. I will be right back with spiffy charts and graphs that prove otherwize

 

but first a word from my sponsor Wayne .

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Response to hack89 (Reply #6)


Response to hack89 (Reply #6)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:13 PM

12. Can you show that the drop is due to an increase in the number of guns?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #12)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:17 PM

13. There is no such correlation.

Murder is a complex social phenomena. But I am certain that more guns did not result in America's murder rate being cut in half.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #13)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:21 PM

15. How might we explain the ~3,000 jump from 2010 to 2011?

Incidentally, the overall violent crime rate has fallen over the span that you describe (1993 to 2010), so it follows that the murder rate would decline as well.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #15)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:34 PM

18. There was an increase in all violent crimes in 2011, not just gun murders

so obviously the increase is related to something other than the number of guns in society.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf

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Response to hack89 (Reply #18)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:49 PM

19. Aren't we arguing the same point?

That an increase in guns doesn't cause a drop in crime rate?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #19)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:01 PM

20. And that more guns did not lead to an increase in crime rate.

it is a two sided coin. Either guns matter (good and bad) or they don't. The OP specifically says "More guns, more gun crime". I don't think that the past 20 years bear that out.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #20)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:14 PM

27. I don't currently have access to the full violent crimes tally, but I see your point.

Of course, if guns don't lead to a reduction in crime, why is this used as a major selling point for guns?


Also, this leaves us with the question of why our murder-by-gun rate so greatly exceeds every other developed nation on the planet, if guns actually have no bearing on violent crime.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #27)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 04:15 PM

34. Gun violence is very geographically concentrated in America

if you look at a city like Chicago or Boston, for example, you will see that gun violence is concentrated in a few neighborhoods. The vast majority of Americans live in areas with murder rates on par with all the other developed nations.

High crime rates are associated with poverty, unemployment, poor education, drugs and criminal gangs. Most developed nations have social safety nets and rational drug laws that don't leave them with concentrated pockets of desperate, violent people. The demographics of violent crime are well known - lets focus on those who are actually committing the violence.

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 12:58 PM

7. Yes, and it's not the first study finding this. It's a replicable result, and holds up after

after controlling. More guns, more homicide.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #7)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:04 PM

10. So the number of guns in America has significantly increased

over the pass 20 years, resulting in a corresponding increase in murder? Is that the argument?

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:05 PM

11. Studies, schmudies. Unless if validates my bias, it's flawed/inaccurate/questionable...

Studies, schmudies. Unless if validates my bias, it's flawed/inaccurate/questionable-- and I have my own biased and flawed interpretations of other studies to prove it...

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:19 PM

14. IBTL

 

This same thread got locked yesterday. Guns, y'know.

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:26 PM

16. Facts don't matter for the Tactical Tier 1 Operators

 

Only emotions do.

"Oh, so you want people to be defenseless?"

"Oh, so you want women to be raped?"

"Oh, so you want us to be thrown into reeducation camps?"

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 01:29 PM

17. In before the lock!

All data that doesn't support NRA talking points is biased, poorly researched, improperly interpreted and presented solely to take all our guns away.

Didn't ya know that?

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:12 PM

21. SURPRISE!!! Oh well. It's a good thing we don't like science and numbers are to be viewed

with a skeptical eye.

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 02:25 PM

22. In other news water is wet.

The solution to gun violence isn't more guns?

Shocker!

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:04 PM

25. I grew up with guns in my home. I could have done with out them, really.

The first time I fired a weapon I was 5 years old. I wanted to search for crawdads in the creek, but dad insisted that I shoot. We were in the woods outside of Macon, GA sometime around 1967. He handed me the gun and helped me aim it and I fired the gun. I was instantly blind and deaf. I had no eye or ear protection. The gun that I shot was a 9mm Luger. If you're familiar with that weapon you can guess what happened to me. I remember when we got home, and mom got her first look at me, she started screaming at my dad. I had a lump the size of a bottle cap right in the center of my forehead, and a pounding skull ache. My dad was a chronic alcoholic who had served in the national guard. He was also a gun enthusiast. Two years later, we had moved up near Atlanta, and my dad bought a snub nosed .38 revolver for 'home protection'. My younger brother was all excited about that. He did not have the benefit of my experience, but that was about to change. My brother was 5, and my dad was passed out on the couch. I was not even remotely interested in the new gun. I had a comic book that I was reading and my brother disappeared down the hallway. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw my brother come back and sit down on the coffee table across the room from me. I noticed that he was holding the gun and about to squeeze the trigger. I went to say no, but it was too late. I saw the round come out of the barrel and lodge in the drywall about a foot away from my right knee. My brother screamed and dropped the gun and ran down the hallway. My father jumped up off of the couch and looked around. He saw the gun on the floor and me still sitting in the chair. At first he thought I had been shot, but I said no, and showed him where the round had gone into the wall. My dad punished my brother severely for that, but it was obviously my dad's fault. I have other gun related horror stories, but I'll stop here. If you think you need a gun for home protection, you should probably move, or get a dog. At least with a dog, you will know the trouble is coming before it makes it in the door. A gun won't do you any good unless you are on patrol with your weapon at the ready. I would rather not be on patrol, or live in a world where I have to worry about who I'm going to have to shoot at. I would rather have a closet full of guitars any day.

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:11 PM

26. Hey man, what about the fact that some people just love guns? You wanna deprive them of their fun?

Gun advocates are courageous freedom fighters!

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:17 PM

28. So mexico with its strict gun laws is probably much safer than the US, correct?

 

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 03:26 PM

29. The nature of a majority of posts in this thread shows why these threads get locked.

 

Snark ain't discussion.

Time to lock this one too.

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 04:15 PM

33. More home protection. It just goes on and on...

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Response to liberal N proud (Original post)

Tue Jul 7, 2015, 04:52 PM

35. Locking...

A consensus of Forum Hosts agree, this OP does not meet the requirements of the SOP for the posting of gun threads. Forum Hosts encourage you to post this OP in one of the gun groups.

From the SOP:

GUNS

News stories (and related content) from reputable mainstream sources about efforts to strengthen or weaken gun control legislation in any jurisdiction in the United States, national news stories (and related content) from reputable mainstream sources about high-profile gun crimes, and viral political content from social media or blogs that would likely be of interest to a large majority of DU members are permitted under normal circumstances.

Local stories about gun crime and "gun porn" threads showing pictures of guns or discussing the merits of various firearms are not permitted under normal circumstances and should be posted in the Gun Control and RKBA Group.

Open discussion of guns is permitted during very high-profile news events which are heavily covered across all news media.

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