White Dad Mysteriously Dies In Police Custody

[damnedifIknow]

Saturday evening, Troy and Kelli Goode of Memphis headed off to a Widespread Panic concert in nearby Southaven, Mississippi. What should have been a nice night off for two young parents ended with Troy, a 30-year-old chemical engineer, loving husband and devoted daddy of a 15-month-old, being hogtied by the Southaven police, and soon after dying in their custody.

*Regardless of the exact cause of death, McCormack told Wonkette, “Everyone realizes that the real story here is how Troy was treated by the police. We have video of how he was treated. Everyone can see that they hogtied him. They strapped his head down while he was hogtied. It’s a shame that the Southaven Police Department isn’t focusing on their officers’ use of force.”

*And remember how Goode had asthma? A close friend of the family with detailed knowledge of the incident reports that Kelli Goode tried in vain to tell the officers that her husband had asthma and needed his inhaler, at which point they allegedly threatened to arrest her. This source’s account also describes Goode screaming, “I can’t breathe!”

http://wonkette.com/591729/nice-white-dad-mysteriously-dies-in-police-custody-we-can-talk-police-brutality-now

[seveneyes]

1. All innocent deaths matter

[deathrind]

51. /\ This

All lives matter.

[hifiguy]

91. Yup. Thread winner.

[uponit7771]

2. Looks like another situation where police could've DE-escalated a situation and didn't

[Orrex]

6. Here's the thing that blows my mind

I work in phone-based customer service, and I deal with hostile, argumentative callers all the time. They routinely curse me out, tell me how incompetent I am, and otherwise insult me.

My job requires that I maintain a courteous, professional manner regardless of how the customers treat me. If I fail to do so, I will quickly be fired. And honestly, it's not that hard to do. De-escalation is a basic skill of customer interaction, something they teach on Day One.

Also, all of my calls--along with everything work-related that I do during the day--is recorded.

If I can manage to keep my shit together in the face of such hostility, you'd think that a law enforcement professional might be held to a similar standard. I sure as shit don't get to bust out my taser on the guy who's screaming at me because his bill is too high. And if I can tolerate my actions being recorded while I'm acting on behalf of my employer, why the hell can't cops endure such scrutiny?

[cstanleytech]

10. I am not sure if your experience is really applicable here though Orrex.

I'm honestly not knocking you or your job, please believe me I am not its just that there is a huge difference from dealing with an irate person over a phone (some of whom I am willing to you bet you wish you could reach through the phone and strangle at times) vs dealing with said irate person right in your face which is what the police deal with.
But yes its clear that the police have problems from recruiting people who should never have been police officers to ......well...............shitty ass training and it needs to be fixed.

[Orrex]

13. Sure, they're different jobs, but...

Waitresses have to deal with hostile customers face to face, as do bartenders, cashiers, and anyone else who interacts face-to-face. Years ago I worked late nights at a small restaurant that got flooded nightly after the local bars closed--dozens of hostile drunks, and never once did I tase or pepper-spray any of them! And that was in my 20s, with no professional training!

But yes its clear that the police have problems from recruiting people who should never have been police officers to ......well...............shitty ass training and it needs to be fixed.

That's the essence of it right there. It should be a zero-tolerance policy nationwide, with independent oversight and with a dismissal rendering the offender permanently ineligible for any law enforcement position nationwide.

[cstanleytech]

16. Well next time use the waitress example it works better.

"That's the essence of it right there. It should be a zero-tolerance policy nationwide, with independent oversight and with a dismissal rendering the offender permanently ineligible for any law enforcement position nationwide." Cant say I am a fan of a total zero tolerance, it can be taken to extremes after all like some of the schools have done.
Plus your going to have police officers no matter how good their training is making mistakes now and then and screwing up so there needs to be some leeway otherwise its going to be next to impossible to get and keep officers because even the best police officer fucks up.
I agree could go with the ineligible part but maybe its time for a bar association type thing for the police instead? That way if your suspended in one state you cannot just state hop you have to pass the new states bar for the police and they will investigate prior disciplinary actions against you and if your license is suspended for a period they automatically turn you away until that period is expired?
Also I have always supported independent oversight as its something that should always be done though there needs to be strict penalties for any attempt at a blue wall of silence from suspension without pay for a week all the way up to firing the person if its severe enough.

[Orrex]

21. You're right, but I wanted to try for a first-hand point, even didn't work as well.

As for zero-tolerance policies, I don't like them when they pertain to, say, six-year-olds pointing their fingers and saying "bang," but it's very different when we're talking about a professional law enforcement officer with extensive training and with the capacity to cause instant death. It certainly appears that the current policy is to assume the cop is justified in whatever action he takes, unless it's later somehow proven otherwise.

I knew a cop about 15 years who actually stated outright--in the presence of other cops--that he had the best job in the world because "I get to beat up n*****s." Granted, he's just one cop, but saying so openly in front of his peers is a clear indication of the culture of permissiveness, and I'm not sure that it's gotten any better since then.

Sure, we need to maintain a presumption of innocence, but too often we appear to presume that the cop is innocent after brutalizing someone else who was supposed to be presumed innocent.

[cstanleytech]

65. Ya but even doctors who have years of more training make mistakes and police

officers have even less time training than they do yet you think they wont make mistakes because they could fired? They will still make them and they wont be allowed to learn from their mistake because they will already be out of a job and then your back at square one with a new officer who might even be worse.
I mean imagine a zero tolerance for people driving? Bam, first accident or speeding ticket and they are stripped of their license. Would it make the roads safer? Probably, because mainly you would have a hell of alot of people unable to drive ever again but it would also cause alot of pain to people because they would be unable to get to and from work or to pick their kids or go to the grocery store or even to the doctors office or the pharmacy.
In end it comes down to this, you need to ask yourself is it fair to punish someone with instant banishment of a right to drive or the right to work at a certain job ever again even for a minor offense because of a zero tolerance policy? I personally do not think it is fair. I believe such punishment needs be considered carefully on a case by case basis because we otherwise end up in a situation like some of the school where they expel the kids for stupid minor offenses which does not allow the child to learn from their mistake rather it probably just makes them more angry and resentful than anything.

[Orrex]

128. It depends on the nature amd consequence of the mistake

And it also depends upon whether it's a mistake or a pattern of behavior.

A mistake that kills an innocent civilian in custody is very different from a mistake that erroneously results in the civilian paying a $25 fine. Likewise, a cop who has a history of "erroneously" charging $25 fines is different from a cop does it mistakenly once or twice.

A surgeon who erroneously amputates a leg is miles removed from a surgeon who mistakenly bills a patient an extra $25 for a procedure that never happened.

In short, we're talking about a wide range of mistakes, and we need to hold the offenders strictly accountable, even if that means a lifelong ban following one innocent but severe error.

The current enviroment favors the cop at the expense of the wronged civilian. Absent a perfect, infallible system, we should instead err on the side of the civilian (or customer or patient).

[cstanleytech]

129. It would appear that we are largely in agreement. .nt

[Orrex]

133. How dare you agree with me! The outrage!

[JDPriestly]

102. I've dealt with very irate people in person. You stay calm and de-escalate the situation

with your calm presence.

One guy told me he had killed someone and been in prison and would kill me too. He left me on good terms.

You stay strong and calm and don't panic. These officers get madder than the crazy people they deal with. Maybe they work hours that are too long. That would not surprise me.

[cstanleytech]

106. Which is why all police departments need to be chooser in their picks for police officers.

After all in the end they are giving a loaded weapon to a person that is supposed to enforce the law and help the citizens not beat them down into submission.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

113. I think aggression is a plus for job applicants, too.

Just my impression.

I don't do assignments where I know the situation is likely to be more than I can handle. I'm fortunate that I can use professional discretion.

[JonLP24]

131. The problem isn't training, it's what happens after

Unless you mean ethics training or the kind of training that trains them to confrontational, manipulative, (like the bluff "we know you're..." guilty of what ever, etc. All the time, police get away with behavior that few in their right mind would think of acting so entirely disrespectful that leads to people to becoming irate, police escalate a lot of stuff with the shouting, deceptions, insults, etc -- Whenever I was in on the receiving end of police they demand so much control over a situation that I'm afraid to even flinch. In a lot cases policing can be dangerous but for the most part criminals are intelligent enough not to shoot a cop but in cases where they are worried about life sentences, desperate to get away but for the vast majority of the time -- shoplifting and drug possession arrests they're very disrespectful -- escalating situations.

I recall a woman jaywalking to catch the bus was irate when the cop stopped her because the bus left without her, she threw her bag of chips, throwing it to the floor when asked to pull out ID -- the cop really handled it well cool, calm, fair, etc went through the motions and let her go with a warning. Same cop actually that busted me for trespassing (though got away with a suspended sentence mentioning to the prosecutor the sign was on the other side of the wall and graffiti defaced the sign making it practically unreadable -- technically according to the law) sitting behind a wall near railroad tracks behind a grocery store. The cop didn't do anything I found objectionable, I was surprised though to see her irate like that and her let go and me charged with the trespassing but the two events were a few months apart.

This isn't related to outright brutality but the most common kind of police corruption always snowballs into something further.

Unconstitutional Policing: The Ethical Challenges in Dealing with Noble Cause Corruption



What Is Noble Cause Corruption?
Noble cause corruption in policing is defined as "corruption committed in the name of good ends, corruption that happens when police officers care too much about their work. It is corruption committed in order to get the bad guys off the streets…the corruption of police power, when officers do bad things because they believe that the outcomes will be good."2 Examples of noble cause corruption are, planting or fabricating evidence, lying on reports or in court, and generally abusing police authority to make a charge stick.

The policing profession attracts, among others, a certain type of individual: authoritative and responsible, one with leadership skills, who acts on behalf of others, with a high disregard for his or her own well being. Some academics suggest police applicants have a preconception of the profession-the noble cause-that makes them stand out as promising prospects. This preconceived notion is a profound moral commitment to make the world safer.3

Police corruption, traditionally, has been defined as the following:

"a misuse of authority by a police officer for personal gain,"4

"accepting money or money's worth to provide a service they are duty bound to provide,"5 or

"physical, psychological or legal abuse used by police."6

A recent survey demonstrated that officers felt corruption for personal gain was a much more serious charge than engaging in corrupt behavior that appears "to benefit society at large."7 This sub cultural value system rationalizes constitutional rights violations.

Officers do not normally define "a bending of the rules for a greater good" as misconduct or as corruption; rather, they rationalize that such behavior is part of the job description, in a utilitarian sense, to get the criminals off the streets, regardless of the means.8

When this passion for a safer society goes unchecked, it often leads to police crime and civil rights violation. This passion-laudable in itself-can cause good officers to overzealously execute their duties, ignore the basic constitutional guidelines their profession legally demands, and expose their agency to legal liability.

Officers rationalize this misconduct because cynicism has built up, the department lacks morale and leadership, and the individual lacks faith in the criminal justice system. In their attempts to make charges stick, officers may resort to "massaging" facts in order to get a felony warrant. For example, a department's sub cultural values may dictate always arresting "the driver" in a possession of stolen motor vehicle case, with anything less considered poor police work.

<snip>

The Rationalization Defense
Shortcuts taken in police procedures and investigations in everyday misdemeanor arrests are a large part of noble cause corruption. Rationalizations, such as the "citizen is so drunk he won't remember what happened," may lead to officers' skipping the field sobriety tests or the breath tests, while reporting that they were performed. Before performing a breath alcohol test, officers must read specific constitutional rights to the citizen informing him or her of his or her right to refuse the test and informing the citizen that this refusal, alone, may result in a suspended driver's license. Testimony affirming that specific police procedures were followed, when they were not, is a police crime, especially when confronted with probable cause issues in pretrial motions.

Additionally, the "contempt of cop" or "it's my word against his" attitude opens the door for further shortcuts and constitutional violations. An officer may perform a valid traffic stop, but if the citizen is belligerent or disrespectful, chances are that person is going to jail. In this same vein, officers may issue "sewer tickets"-that is, write a ticket but instead of giving it to the citizen throw it in the sewer-causing a failure to appear in court, a warrant to be issued, and several future problems for the citizen.

<snip>

Systemic Arrogance Contributes to Corruption
Arrogance has no place in policing, and agencies that have a culture of arrogance will only foster allegations of organizational tolerance for noble cause corruption and betrayal of the public service philosophy. When officers and administrators believe that the ends justify their means, such as illegal searches, "articulation" in report writing, illegal arrests and "testilying," they corrupt their own system.9

Noble cause corruption is rooted in this sense of arrogance, in which officers will rationalize constitutional violations for their own perceived greater good: a safer community. Middle managers, then, engage in a supervisory logic of good faith based on the belief that subordinates always tell the truth and follow the law as their training dictates.10

<snip>

Supervisory Cowardice Contributes to Corruption
Along with arrogance, police supervisory cowardice reinforces organizational tolerance of noble cause corruption. Cowardice in this sense is the inability of supervisors to make the difficult administrative decisions that relate to subordinate misconduct.12 Police administrators must struggle with misconduct cases and weigh the pros and cons of the appropriate disciplinary actions. Chiefs must openly investigate allegations of scandal or politically motivated police actions and disregard their own occupational survival in this role.

Favoritism, nepotism, political concerns, or image preservation must not prevent the chief from thoroughly investigating and disciplining officers for policy violations. Impossible conflicts of interest arise in policing every day, and professional police administrators must adhere to a predetermined set of guidelines and decision-making processes to best serve their community and their agencies. Allegations of departmental cover-ups are immediately followed with calls for external investigations, removal of the chief, and massive reform.

<snip>

Training to Reduce Noble Cause Corruption
How does police ethics training translate into reducing civil and criminal litigation? Noble cause corruption, when uncovered, can give rise to allegations of organizational tolerance or the civil cause of action for deliberate indifference.14 Plaintiffs' attorneys will suggest that police chiefs had a duty to know or should have known about the patterns or practices of noble cause corruption within their ranks. Failing to adequately train, supervise, and/or discipline offending officers results in large jury awards and settlements. Clearly, the complexities of policing society are numerous, and it is impossible to draft comprehensive rules that apply to every discretionary police situation. However, police, through experience, vigilant training, supervision, individual accountability, and discipline, can root out the weeds of noble cause corruption and at the same time not destroy an individual officer's freedom to exercise individual police discretion.15

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&article_id=1025&issue_id=102006

[cstanleytech]

134. I believe part of it is the training or lack thereof but it's also

the recruiting of people who should never have been recruited as police officer's.

[JonLP24]

137. You ignore all that on the "noble cause corruption"

because it creates a subculture that expands. More than recruits any recruit enters an environment that was there before they got there so either they "go along to get along" or their careers are over or they spend it directing traffic or in the pawn shop unit something.

You know how many Equal Opportunity briefs I've been to with mine given by my Platoon Sergeant who gave the best ones of all time and people say & it does -- that sexual assault remains a problem within the armed forces. Police require a cleaner background on checks and take lie detector tests (something I didn't have to but know someone who claimed to have passed on the subject of drug use by saying that "I pretended to be someone else&quot . Unlike the police force there are other police forces and criminal investigation divisions to break walls of silence and has a criminal justice system within itself unlike the police so them, prosecutors, the arrogance aspect of it (the professor from Wayne State University has done several studies on "noble cause corruption" AKA "unconstitutional policing".

From my POV rather than just recruits I see entire departments that shouldn't be police departments such as NOPD or NYPD -- From Serpico to the Mollen Commission to now highlights problems that are systematic & complex with many departments. Training alone would be a short sighted solution that wouldn't solve the overall problem. Accountability is a must but political pressures on police chiefs trickle down to the rank and file so things become more about image rather than actually doing something like the "drug war" -- rather that treat it as a public health issue they mass arrest drug possession but rarely even do that in a way that would solve it by focus on high end investigations that target the top of the food chain (the money would lead to targets that would be politically difficult) they just scoop up people for low level offenses & call it a job well done. Problems and all of them begin at the top when it comes to policing.

[cstanleytech]

138. So are you advocating for fixing the problem or for abolishing the police departments? Which is it?

[dead_head]

116. Amen to that

Im on the same boat ! I have been saying that for years. If i talked 1/10th of rudeness cops talk to me ( i look like a dirty hippy/pothead/punk/ idiot) i would probably lose my job.

Man! I have so many stories i could tell.

And the worst thing i would ever say to a client wouldnt be even that bad compared to what cops have said to me.

Without bragging, my diplomacy skills compared to cop's are like comparing a blowjob with a kick in the ballss.

[Nay]

3. When, oh when, are the police going to be held accountable for all these deaths in

police custody????

[Hortensis]

76. Cheer up. This IS the season of noting and holding accountable. That entrenched powers and

attitudes don't change overnight doesn't mean nothing's happening. Also, Obama's elections precipitated an increase in often violent reactions against minorities in many of the thousands of municipalities across the country. Also, over these past 40 years many local elective and appointive offices, particularly including law enforcement and prosecution, have been filled with strong, aggressive conservatives who promised to satisfy a punitive public mood. Also, all the tax breaks we voted ourselves caused bad governments to start preying on locals to raise revenue through fines, etc. There's a lot of fixing to be done.

It's no accident, though, that what were previously obscure deaths are being brought to national notice at a time of a national shift to the left and away from the strong conservatism of the past 30+ years that condoned them. It's also no coincidence that, as Pew reports, a very significant minority of GOP/conservative-leaning independent respondents now identify as liberal on either social or economic issues. Our commercialized TV media wouldn't report these deaths if it lowered their precious demographics. They now believe people WANT this news.

[uhnope]

97. +1. also...Anger at police brutality cuts across racial lines

and is largely a concern of the less-powerful in our society (the poor and uneducated as well as POC). And our country has been manufacturing an increasing number of poor and uneducated in the last few decades! So that's how police brutality really can be an issue across the (racial) board

[JDPriestly]

105. Great post. You really added some interesting insights into the discussion. Thanks.,

[Dustlawyer]

115. +1!!! The crack epidemic caused a public over-reaction which birthed the private prison

system. The pendulum is trying to swing back, but corporate interests fight dirty.

A good current example is how Comcast got rid of Ed Schultz and replaced him with a perineal loser, corporate whore. Was it because Ed was a big supporter of Bernie Sanders, who wants to break up the media oligopolies who use our public airwaves to spew their propaganda? Me thinks so!

Until we insist on special prosecutors for all cases against cops suspected of wrongdoing they know they very rarely (like in lightning strikes or lotto winners) get indicted, much less prosecuted!

[pnwmom]

4. Doesn't seem very mysterious to me. That position is known to cause deaths. n/t

[xmas74]

34. When I worked in a state hospital

it was one of many positions that was banned from us. This was back in the 90's so it's not a new thing-the memo's been out there for a very long time.

[JDPriestly]

107. Right.

[Juicy_Bellows]

5. WTF

Hogtie a guy cuz he is intoxicated? Try to blame it on an LSD overdose? Bloody hell, I hope his wife gets a mess of justice for this. Acute asthma attacks can be deadly especially in a compromising position. That inhaler may have saved his life. Assholes.

[damnedifIknow]

26. I have asthma so I can relate

My inhaler is a very big part of my life and keep it with me at all times. Denying this man his inhaler is flat out barbaric.

[restorefreedom]

45. i have asthma too

not too many things worse than air hunger. what a horrible death. i hope his wife gets a good lawyer and a friendly jury.

[Gormy Cuss]

9. The barnyard stench is strong with this OP.

No one has ever said that whites don't die for no damn reason while in police custody. They just don't do it with anywhere near the frequency proportional to population as African-Americans.

Do go on ignoring the elephant in the room

[lib87]

19. Mighty Strong

Anywho, I see the DA has said nothing unlawful was done in his arrest to cause his death because a heart or lung condition is the suspected cause of death. I hope the independent autopsy gives the family answers.

[Starry Messenger]

24. Yes.

[cwydro]

35. Are you saying police mistreatment of other races

should be ignored here?

If so, why?

[Gormy Cuss]

36. Are you saying that the OP isn't a distraction from the topic of African-American deaths by police?

If so, why?

[cwydro]

37. I don't see it as a distraction at all.

The police are out of control in this country.

I don't see how that changes anything re their violence toward blacks.

Funny how you don't want to see attention paid to police violence unless it's against minorities.

[Gormy Cuss]

38. You apparently didn't read my first post before you responded.

I clearly stated that white people die at the hands of police for no good reason. No, this OP strikes me as equivalent to the transition some make from "#blacklivesmatter" to "#alllivesmatter." Saying black lives matter is not saying others don't -- that's the most obtuse interpretation imaginable. It's like complaining at a AIDs walk that all diseases deserve to be included.

[Throd]

39. So this incident should never have been posted?

Had this story been inserted into a thread about black people dying in police custody I could understand your concerns about "metooism", but separate posts about people of other races dying in police custody have merit.

[Gormy Cuss]

40. When was the last time a story about a white person dying in custody was posted here

with the race highlighted in the subject line? That's a clue that more is afoot here than just posting a story about another person dying in custody.

[RiverLover]

41. ...."Here are just SOME of the WHITE people who have died in police custody recently...."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=456756

Something is afoot....all lives matter.

[Gormy Cuss]

43. That's a link to you trying to move the goal post.

Next?

[RiverLover]

46. What goal post? You asked about posts with the word white in them, I posted one myself.

Wow.

[Gormy Cuss]

48. I didn't ask about posts where someone was #whitelivesmatter posting. n/t

[uhnope]

99. you might not intend it but your attitude is divisive

The brutalizing cops prey on those viewed as less powerful in our society. That's POC as well as the poor and uneducated who are not POC. This cause might very well take off and we might be able to really make our country a better place, but it won't happen if it's turned into divisive issue. That's what the PTB want

[Gormy Cuss]

117. I would contend that people who shift the story to whites, economic levels, education level etc. are

Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 12:00 AM - Edit history (1)

intentionally or not, derailing the very clear issue of African-Americans and the law enforcement system. One can address the other facets too but not at the cost of ignoring the biggest problem in the frame.

[uhnope]

120. who says it's "at the cost of ignoring" the issue of DWB, WWB etc etc?

How could a revolution in reform of epidemic of police abuse be "at a cost" of PoC? It could only help PoC. A rising tide raises all boats etc.

[Gormy Cuss]

121. Too often there are leaky skiffs that are left behind.

Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 03:36 AM - Edit history (1)

Think for example when the topic was marriage equality. Did it advance the cause to start talking about polygamy? No. It was a distraction.

[uhnope]

125. um....ok

kind of a stretch

[Throd]

44. I honestly don't know.

Would "Hispanic dad", "Asian dad", or "Native American dad" bother you as well?

The statistics I have seen show that black people bear the brunt of police brutality in this country. That said, instances of non-black victims should be brought to attention as well. It might wake up a lot of white people to realize "this shit could happen to me too." Greater awareness might help usher in much needed reforms.

[Gormy Cuss]

47. Again, have those been posted in OPs around the same time the hot topic is African-American deaths?

Trying to move the discussion away from African-American deaths at the hands of police is minimizing the disparate impact on that community.

And who are the people on this site who need examples of white deaths in order to realize it could happen to them too? Remember this is supposed to be a center-left site. How does someone from that political perspective, who participates in discussions on this site, not understand this?

[TheSarcastinator]

49. sorry but you don't get to control the debate or discussion

and for you to attempt to dictate which reportings of which police deaths are appropriate for posting and conversation is doomed to failure. You do not get to decide what "center left" means all by yourself. Not only are you refusing possible allies in an important struggle, you are missing a very important piece of the puzzle.

I sincerely believe that it is not JUST about race. Race is one factor -- and admittedly, an obscenely large and vitally important one -- in a complex cultural problem that also ties into issues of class disparity (while people of all races are regularly abused and victimized by cops, they have one thing in common -- they are NOT part of the 1%. When was the last time you saw one of those bastards shot or killed by police on the street? It doesn't freaking happen.) and our historical tendencies toward violence and authoritarianism. I wish more people here and everywhere had read and absorbed Howard Zinn's socio-historical analysis of the manipulation of racial divides among the working class during the age of the Robber Barons.

By limiting the problem to ONLY an issue of race, you actually help to insure that the solution fades even further into the background. Yes, race needs to be discussed as one of the vital factors here, but so do issues of class and authority. We cannot fix a broken system without free and open dialogue about every aspect of the problem.

[Gormy Cuss]

50. And this is your first post in thread, trying to shut down my commenting?

Sorry, you don't get to do that.

I am not at all dismissing the issues beyond race that factor into deaths while in police custody. I am pointing out that when the topic is A, trying to make the topic B or C is being dismissive of topic A.

[damnedifIknow]

53. I hope you're not implying I'm being dismissive of the problem

Police brutality against anyone should be highlighted and discussed. Color of skin shouldn't matter as we should all come together and try to put a stop to this.

[Gormy Cuss]

56. It goes beyond brutality. There's an increased likelihood to be stopped by police in the 1st place

if you're walking or driving while black, and that starts the chain that ends with more deaths and more incarcerations. That is the crux of #blacklivesmatter and why shifting the focus to whites or all races is, as I wrote above, ignoring the elephant in the room.

Can't we all come together and address the problem as it affects African-Americans, or are we so shallow that we only care when someone points out that it could happen to us ?

[uhnope]

118. so you're disappointed that people are "so shallow"?

I guess you can complain about the way people are, or you can accept it and try to get something done about the epidemic of police brutality

[Demit]

80. If the thread had been started as about AA deaths, & this item was a post in that thread,

then I'd call that trying to move the discussion away from AA deaths at the hands of police.

But this was an Original Post of its own, so unless your position is that there can be no mention on DU of white deaths at the hands of police until--until when?--then this OP has as much right to exist as any thread on any topic any DU member wants to post on.

For the life of me I can't see how the death of this man takes away from what you call the 'hot topic'. This is a sad story about police sadism & brutality too. I don't see why it can't justly be a thread of its own.

[whathehell]

101. Thank you. n/t

[restorefreedom]

90. and saying all lives matter

is not saying any are more important than others. the gop co opted this term.

we should not let them define our narrative. many people saying alllivesmatter are the biggest allies to the blacklivesmatter movement

[99th_Monkey]

98. No it doesn't change anything

Our killer-cops problem has never been "just" about any one race, it's been happening
to people of all color, yet killer-cops seem to have some 'special preference' for
murdering black people disproportionately. <-- no argument on that.

And it ALL needs to stop.

[whathehell]

100. + 10. n/t

[leftynyc]

55. If you're claiming

that the OP is merely a distraction, then you are asking us to ignore the FACT that white people are also getting killed by police. If mere mention of this doesn't even elicit some sympathy for his family, perhaps it's you that needs to step back and take a breath.

[Gormy Cuss]

57. Yes, the OP is merely a distraction. That's exactly what I'm claiming.

If black deaths while in police custody wasn't a current national topic the OP wouldn't have needed that "white" reference in the subject line.

[leftynyc]

59. So THAT'S your objection

that the OP has white in the subject line? A man is DEAD and all you can think about is how that's a distraction from what you consider important? That's pretty pathetic and I notice you still haven't given one ounce of sympathy or empathy for this man's family. Nice.

[Gormy Cuss]

61. What's pathetic is the attempt to shame me for pointing it out.

Even the Wonkette writer noted:

And it’s especially concerning when people mysteriously die while in the custody of of police, though the official narrative tends to be that the person in custody must have done it to him or herself. Strange how that keeps happening, especially to people of color.

Read more at http://wonkette.com/591729/nice-white-dad-mysteriously-dies-in-police-custody-we-can-talk-police-brutality-now#C3Ov3SziIcFOODJh.99


BTW, you haven't said one word of sympathy for the victim or his family either.

[leftynyc]

66. Spare me

You're the one trying to distract from this story because it doesn't fit your narrative as to what's IMPORTANT to you. I've been disgusted before by things happening at DU but this one takes the cake. Nobody is saying that POC don't have it worse, nobody is claiming anything like that but you can't take one second away from your outrage to show some compassion (which by even having this discussion with you I don't really need to pile on with another post showing my sympathy) for this poor man or his family. I didn't realize showing compassion would in any way mean a diminishing of what happens every single day to POC. I'm done here. This thread has become toxic and disgusting.

[Gormy Cuss]

74. White is mentioned in the subject line. Why?

And it's in the title at Wonkette, so that blogger is the one who first made it stand out.

You know, if this story appeared here without highlighting his race it would be about a tragic case of death while in police custody. Instead it's about a white tragedy, according to the subject line.

[SusanCalvin]

86. Exactly. nt

[chenildieu]

96. Not just "white" but "white dad"!

I have seen this kind of thing in newspapers for a long time. I'm freuently disgusted that when a woman is a crime victim the headline usually reads "Mother of two shot dead" rather than simply "Woman shot dead.". Like motherhood makes her worthy, or defines her, or some crap like that.

These headlines cater to unspoken biases. For example, a "man found dead in police custody" is probably (in the reders' minds) some crazed criminal; yeah who cares? -- ooh but if he is presented as a "white dad" lots of us picture a quiet suburban guy with a lawnmower, and suddenly the story is more interesting. A "woman shot dead" is presumed by readers to be a homeless junkie hooker (and so who cares if her worthless life is over?), whereas a MOTHER shot dead makes us picture a woman with a home and kids who miss her. It's a grabbier headline because she sounds like a neighbor or a friend.

So I conclude that the "white" in the headline is not an intentional distraction from the racism faced by black people - more a low-grade pandering to readers' biases.

[chenildieu]

88. Thanks

I see it your way.

Does anyone else think this spat is the exact replica of all the spats about the Netroots affair - is "all lives matter" a slur; are passionate Bernie defenders insulting passionate BLM activists, and so on. People who all believe pretty much the same stuff (as far as I can tell) are dividing into factions and shouting insults.

I keep thinking of that Greek myth in which an entire army of soldiers hack each other to death because a stone is thrown into their midst and they all turn on each other: "Who threw that stone? Was it you? Bhow dare you! You must DIE!"

On DU looks like no one even has to throw a stone.

[whathehell]

108. Thank you. n/t

[whathehell]

104. Well, at least he didn't say "who cares"? like the poster

whose post was hidden.

[CANDO]

68. Double standards

Can't believe you don't see it.

[whathehell]

103. Sorry, but that's just crap. We are allowed to talk about police brutality

even when it happens to white people.

[melman]

60. It's the DU way

Ugly as it is, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

[JDPriestly]

110. It actually is not a distraction. It is a reinforcement.

It isn't well we have this problem too so your problem isn't so bad.

It is this happens mostly to Black people but the police violence against arrestees and suspects is so common that it also sometimes affects white people.

If you think I am wrong or trivializing, please explain your point of view to me. Why does this OP distract from the fact of the extreme prevalence of similar cases with regard to Blacks?

Please explain to me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. this . nt

[tymorial]

54. Is there a study that shows this?

I'm not passing judgment, I would like to see it.

[Gormy Cuss]

62. There's plenty of literature on the disparate treatment

Here's a starter kit:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/09/06/incarceration-gap-between-whites-and-blacks-widens/

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/additional-ucr-publications/age_race_arrest93-01.pdf

https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/aclu-thewaronmarijuana-rel2.pdf

[tymorial]

63. I've seen these

Your comment was about race disparity in deaths while in custody. That is what I was seeking. I'll see what I can find.

[Comrade Grumpy]

64. I think you're the one creating the barnyard stench.

A white guy gets killed by the cops and it's a distraction?

This just happened. It's not something somebody pulled out of the ether to minimize police use of deadly force against anyone else. This isn't just an issue for black people, and talking about it not some fucking plot. That's just ridiculous and shows how far around the bend you've gone.

We're not supposed to talk about police mistreatment of white people because...police mistreatment of black people? That makes no fucking sense. Unless you think it's ONLY racism that's a problem, and not the way our cops behave.

This is the height of PC stupidity.

[Gormy Cuss]

71. Again, never said we shouldn't talk about mistreatment of white people.

Funny how his race is important enough to put in a headline all of a sudden.

[B2G]

77. 'all of a sudden'?

You're kidding, right?

[Comrade Grumpy]

79. Quit digging. n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

82. Can't. I'd have to start digging first.

Carry on.

[Comrade Grumpy]

83. You dug yourself a big hole of ugly.

[LanternWaste]

139. You may be confusing that big hole of ugly with a dramatic lack of matter

You may be confusing that big hole of ugly with a dramatic lack of matter in rather close proximity to your mirror. However, if you need to inarticulately reinterpret that also for even more self-validation, by all means-- pretend it also means what it doesn't, as even a foolish consistency can assist mental discipline... for posters as well as hobgoblins.

[uhnope]

126. jeez I thought you'd avoid this subject since your debacle

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026995434

[Comrade Grumpy]

135. Thanks for your "concern," but I'm not going anywhere.

[Doctor_J]

94. I could see this coming. Now deaths of white people shouldn't be posted

Or they can be, but when they are they are merely a "distraction" from all of the black deaths.

DU is like a parody of liberal PC. The post to which you responded is the reason we are mocked, and wth good reason

[Initech]

73. If this is one story where more details are needed, this is it.

And the details are far, far more horrifying than it would seem onthe surface.

1. Goode was routinely denied his asthma medication. H
When his wife screamed at the officers, she was threatened with arrest.

2. When the wife wanted to tail the ambulance to the hospital, she was also threatened with arrest.

3. Goode's *MOTHER* was threatened with arrest for the mere act of calling the hospital.

4. The extremely fucked up police department tried to claim that he died of an overdose of LSD when the autopsy showed there were no drugs in his system other than alcohol.

This is a fucked up story on multiple levels.

[Gormy Cuss]

75. No argument, this man died because of negligence on the part of the police

as well as incompetence and a giant bowl of cover-up.

[B2G]

78. Your little infuriated smiley rings hollow for some reason. nt

[SusanCalvin]

85. Yep.

Not saying this wasn't wrong. Saying decision to post it now, with this headline, may have been something like this: "It's like complaining at a AIDs walk that all diseases deserve to be included." (Copied from a post upthread - thank you.)

[melman]

87. It's nothing like that

That analogy doesn't work at all.

[SusanCalvin]

89. If you say so.

Obviously I disagree.

I will say that I don't know the poster. I will admit it's possible they could be either oblivious or tone-deaf.

[melman]

92. An AIDS walk is specifically about AIDS

That analogy would work if this was #BlackLivesMatter's Facebook page or twitter but it's not.

[SusanCalvin]

93. No, but it's a place where

Certain discussions have taken place lately, and I for one do see this as either oblivious or "so there."

[damnedifIknow]

112. I've been posting about police brutality almost as long as I've been here

The vast majority of posts have been about brutality directed towards poc. "Tone deaf" or "oblivious" certainly doesn't describe.

[SusanCalvin]

114. Thank you for the information.

I do feel the emphasis on "white" is unfortunate, but I see how the emphasis could have been unintentional.

[Bradical79]

81. I disagree

I see the headline as a frustrated jab at people who continue to ignore police brutality after all these incidents against black people. The subtitle: "Now can we talk about police brutality?" in the article changes the tone of that headline imo.

Edit: Ah, I see OP truncated too much of the headline

[SusanCalvin]

84. Thank you.

Either the point of this OP escapes me, or I don't like it if my perception is correct. (And I believe it is correct.)

Do things happen that shouldn't to representatives of every group? Yes.

In this country, at least, do these things happen at disproportionate rates to PoC? YES.

[Charles de Gaudless]

95. I agree, GC

And I'll bet this guy's death in police hands will be much more thoroughly investigated than that of an African-American.

[JDPriestly]

109. You are right that the frequency of deaths in police custody of African-Americans

is exponentially greater than those of whites.

But, if you want change, it is smart to make the point to white people, some of whom may lie to themselves and say that well it's just Blacks so it has nothing to do with me, you need to let white people know that it can happen to them.

It is a matter of the strategy of getting things done.

It is also a matter of the truth that we are all in this together.

What is happening to Black people today could be happening to this group and then that group of white people tomorrow -- always with the excuse that it's just that little minority of people who complain about this.

We are all in this together.

Although you are right about the extreme amount of this behavior against African-Americans and the relatively little of it against white people.

[Recursion]

123. Being arrested is more deadly for blacks than whites, but jail is more deadly for whites than blacks

The homicide and disease death rates in jails is about the same (~40 and 1000 per 100,000, respectively), but the suicide rate among whites in jail is 5 times higher, and the drug/alcohol death rate is 3 times higher.

[Recursion]

122. Whites in jail die at a greater rate than blacks, but mostly from suicide (nt)

[noiretextatique]

132. +1000

i hope his family sues, and it is clear there is a problem with police brutality and murder in the country. and there is an especial problem with the black citizens in the this country. both things are true without a competition. btw, 2 unarmed black man were killed by police this week.
and here's a timeline of recent killings of unarmed black people.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/nicholasquah/heres-a-timeline-of-unarmed-black-men-killed-by-police-over#.anxyPBMJ77

[Fred Sanders]

140. Your sense of smell is excellent, the poster with the racist slant on the thread has his Transparency page open!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7041729

[romanic]

142. It sounds like you're more concerned about the race of the victim

than the actual story of police brutality. Just because whites aren't dying at the rate of blacks under police custody, doesn't mean we should just ignore the former to keep up some "narrative". That isn't a very liberal thing to do. Just saying.

[Gormy Cuss]

144. A liberal thing to do is listen and try to understand messages that make one uncomfortable

because the narrative is contradictory to one's own world view. A not-so-liberal thing to do is reflexively turning a arc about differential treatment of POCs or others who aren't members of a dominant structure into one that dilutes the argument by pointing out that it happens to some members of the dominant group too.

Seriously, what other reason was there to highlight this man's race in the OP link?

[Democat]

145. The thread title is making some people uncomfortable

"A liberal thing to do is listen and try to understand messages that make one uncomfortable because the narrative is contradictory to one's own world view."

[brett_jv]

11. Look at that, this acid-head didn't bother to cap ALL his electrical outlets!

Last edited Thu Jul 23, 2015, 01:26 AM - Edit history (3)

There's *some* that are uncovered, it's right there in the picture!

What more evidence do people need that this was an irresponsible druggie, obviously tweaking out-of-control on teh LDS at his crazy 'rock and roll concert' (instead of being home with his infant!!!11!).

I think the evidence in this picture, along with the fact that he was at a 'concert' of band called 'Widespread Panic' (I mean REALLY!?! Who SUPPORTS 'Widespread Panic', mercy me?!? It sounds like a Satanist Muslim Group, doesn't it!?! Probably a buncha them sewacide bomber-types, the kind Obummer likes!), makes it pretty obvious that the Police were well within their God-Given Right to take whatever steps were necessary to control this HEATHEN!

I'm sad for the child that he done lost his daddy, that's a tragedy and all, but I think, ya know, it's probably for the best, in the long run, don't y'all think? I mean, what was he teaching his boy with his behavior, anyways? "Widespread Panic" ... pffft. Damn terra-ists if ya axe me.

Signed,
The Idiot Right-Winger in Your Family, Probably Posting on Facebook

PS: Oh, yeah, and where's AL SHAAAAAARPTON and JESSE JAAAAAAACKSON gonna be on THIS ONE, HUH!?! Ain't gonna hear a peep out o' them, you watch!

It's like I always say, it ain't about RACE with the PO-LICE! They'll beat on anyone if they breakin' the law! Don't matter if they's black or white or yeller ... all the same to them.

On top a that, they saving us taxpayers MIIIIILLIONS o' dollars, takin' out these crimnals like that so they don't get no damn TRIAL, and all they're deathrow appeals and what-not!

I say we pin a medal on these boys in blue, and tell Al SHAAAAAARPTON to move his ass to Eye-RACK, and take O'bummer with him!

[Lint Head]

12. I'm really getting damn sick and tired of hearing the

one bad apple BS. There is something systemically wrong with police departments in this day and time. Unless a police officer is endangered and could lose his life or be injured. No one should die. This crap is not happening in a vacuum. I find that if I just walk up to a cop to chat and all he or she is doing is standing around or really doing nothing they look at you as if they are better than you or as if you may have just commited a crime or wasting their time. Why can't the "majority" of them just be cordial. I'm average looking and definitely do not look like a stereotypical criminal. Whatever that is supposed to look like. Maybe they just pulled a body from a burning car or arrested some notorious fugitive. That does not give them the right to act arrogantly toward others. They get paid to do unmentionable things. Power trips have no place in policing.

[Beartracks]

14. Police, as an institution, seem to have an asshole problem.

I'm reminded of the "pedophile priest" furor surrounding the Catholic church. Statistically, there is not a greater ratio of pedophiles among the clergy than among the non-clergy population, but the problem arises from having even THAT many pedophiles among a group of men who are held to a higher standard of conduct and trust. They affect the reputation of all, and so have a disproportionate impact on the ability of clergy to serve their roles in the Church and society at large. And, as we saw, the Church tried for years to cover up the problem and defend their own,

And so it is the same with the statistical ratio of assholes -- and among those, the racist assholes -- serving on police forces nationwide. The police are held to a higher standard of conduct and trust, and yet it seems they play the first responder card or something to defend their brothers in blue from accountability for far too many of these "accidents."

Sure, more African Americans than White Americans are hassled, injured, or killed by rogue cops. But would Black Lives Matter be okay with reducing the number of black deaths down to an "acceptable" level -- like the level at which white people are killed by cops? Or is BLM aiming to reduce the number of deaths to ZERO -- which is where I'm sure EVERYone, regardless of race, would like it to be?

====================

[Warren DeMontague]

15. I remember when the Inglewood Police killed a kid outside a Dead show.... for doing handstands.

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-01-10/local/me-320_1_inglewood-police

[JI7]

17. i think violent asshole types are more likely to want to become police officers

than in many other jobs

[Nye Bevan]

23. And the ones who can't make it as cops become TSA agents (nt)

[Ed Suspicious]

18. Have you killed anyone today? If you did so during the course of your workday, would you

still have a job? Would you still have your freedom? The officer class is pretty well insulated in this country. It's been pretty fucking sickening for a long time.

[Telcontar]

119. Well, yeah, but I'm in Afghanistan

So its kinda expected

[nc4bo]

20. First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Just adjust to fit our present situation and Ta-Daa.

When will whites, blacks, browns UNITE fight against this?

[GOLGO 13]

22. All lives matter.

Cops are out of control.

[DFW]

25. It's time for a special federal task force

Its job should be to investigate deaths of people (ANY people) at the hands of local police if they are not armed. It should be in their power to instigate prosecution if homicide is determined to be the cause of death, and this determination should not be left solely to the discretion of locally affiliated MEs.

In the beginning, they will be very busy. Hopefully, after convicting a few homicidal cops and sending them to prison, a LOT less so.

[RiverLover]

27. 7/22 - (Hispanic) "Man dies in Chicago police custody; Family demands answers"

http://wgntv.com/2015/07/22/man-dies-in-chicago-police-custody-family-demands-answers/



We have a police brutality problem.

[Rex]

29. It is an epidemic not being treated or cared about by those in charge.

When will it end? When a billionaires son/daughter is murdered? A high ranking politician? When?

Certainly NOT when us little taxpayers get murdered by cops.

[RiverLover]

32. They would never, ever, do that to a billionaire's kid or a high-ranking politician.

That's the divide.

[Rex]

28. White or black, if you are a civilian you are a target to pigs on patrol.

Just pray that the next cop that pulls you over, is a human and not a pig. Pigs seems to have little regard for human life. Little might even be an overstatement.

[cwydro]

33. You're insulting pigs, who are actually very nice creatures

Call these monsters what they are.

Power hungry, steroid crazed bullies.

[SummerSnow]

30. WTF??!! This should be spread everywhere. I'm sending this around

[cwydro]

31. Police ineptitude, bullying, and over-reaction

This needs to be addressed.

Seems the DOJ simply turns a blind eye.

[niyad]

52. some of the comments at the end are vile. unsurprising, but totally vile.

[Anansi1171]

58. If you believe we put men on the moon...

...then in 2015 these are the tactics, techniques and tools we have to protect our freedoms and preserve our lives?

Its because our police culture and management culture, one and the same, are rooted in the plantation.

[Sunlei]

67. police should not be allowed to HOGTIE anyone.

[damnedifIknow]

124. No they should not

Does this look like a guy that needs to be hogtied????

[tblue37]

69. Not mysterious at all. The way they hogtied him and placed him face down, then ignored

him when he said he could't breathe is the obvious cause of his dying.

[Initech]

70. We need serious police overhaul in this country. It's reaching epidemic proportions.

No one should have to die in police custody. No one.

[Reter]

111. White Lives Matter

J/K, they all do.

[merrily]

127. Awful. Let's not pretend this happens to whites as often as it does to people of color, though.

Last edited Sat Jul 25, 2015, 07:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Please let's not do that.

[JonLP24]

130. I hope this thread hasn't taken a turn for the worst

I know there are a lot of thugs in police, sociopaths that are into that kind of thing are attracted to positions of power where the victim is less likelier to be believed. Also you'd have to have an authoritarian mind set to become one. The job trains to lie, trick, scheme as well as any con artist.

I'm white I have my own experiences but I see no reason to be offended by "Black Lives Matter" or the argument. While there are all sorts of profiling based on preconceived notions (bum profiling, poor profiling, etc) in addition to black profiling. I don't know if the thread is to the point but based on recent threads and the very high recommend count so in case it is necessary to point out blacks are stopped, arrested, charged, convicted, sentenced higher on offenses at the highest rates. Not sure overall for non-whites, Mexican-Americans, Hispanic descent are probably higher in Arizona 2/3s of jails & prisons are filled with and are pulled over more despite having a lower rate of drug possession than blacks or white who are about even.

Outside of that I'm outraged at the police actions here or anywhere even when they're not killing for someone such as "testilying".

This article on the "use of lethal force" so doesn't exactly apply here because if cops are going to kill they're better off shooting someone and claiming "I feared for my life" (reasonable fear is all that is required) so if they hogtie or choke someone to death they risk but they have significant control over the situation and in a counties that elect coroners there are untold numbers of murder victims we aren't even aware of.

Why Killer Cops Walk Free

<snip>
The Brown case would be far from the most outrageous incident involving a police officer not being criminally charged for killing an unarmed person. In 2012, for example, Brian Claunch, a wheelchair-bound double amputee living in a group home in Houston, became unruly. After the cops arrived, Claunch, who had a history of mental illness, verbally threatened them from his wheelchair and waved a shiny object—a ballpoint pen. After Claunch refused to drop the pen, one of the officers shot him in the head, killing him.

Is it shocking the officer wasn’t charged? Yes. Unexpected? No. As The Texas Observer noted, between 2007 and 2012, Houston police officers shot and killed 109 people and injured another 111. How many of these shootings were deemed unjustified? Zero.

Claunch was white. I mention his race only because white people should, too, be concerned with being shot by law enforcement. In fact, the police have killed more whites than black people in recent years. But those numbers don’t paint the full picture. On a percentage basis, blacks are being shot and killed by the police in much higher numbers.

For example, as Mother Jones noted, between 2004 and 2008, Oakland police officers shot 37 people. How many were black? All of them. And even though in 40 percent of the cases the suspect was unarmed, not one police officer was charged with a crime. And Oakland is not unique here—similar numbers can be found in other big cities.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/26/why-killer-cops-walk-free.html

The third paragraph is my general point in this reply.

[romanic]

143. Police brutality

is everyone's problem! God bless this man's family and may he R.I.P.