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Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:27 PM

 

About "white supremacist liberals"


Expect to hear more of it.

The right has long been putting together a "liberals are bad for African Americans" schtick, which includes:

1. The Civil Rights Act was championed by Republicans. This one is true in the sense that, yes, at that time southern racists were quite at home in the Democratic Party. That, of course, has long changed, but it doesn't get in the way of the story.

2. Contraception and abortion are means to limit the black population. This one relies on various feats of quote mining and plays well with various religious nutters, as does LGBT equality (prop. 8 passing while Obama carried California by a wide margin demonstrated that)

I'm sure there are other bits and pieces of this narrative, but this isn't the first time, nor is it the last time you'll be hearing about those "white supremacist liberals."

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Arrow 99 replies Author Time Post
Reply About "white supremacist liberals" (Original post)
jberryhill Aug 2015 OP
malaise Aug 2015 #1
Stellar Aug 2015 #10
Skittles Aug 2015 #2
Hydra Aug 2015 #5
Skittles Aug 2015 #6
Hydra Aug 2015 #9
arcane1 Aug 2015 #52
villager Aug 2015 #57
Trajan Aug 2015 #78
nomorenomore08 Aug 2015 #79
Skittles Aug 2015 #99
Le Taz Hot Aug 2015 #98
jberryhill Aug 2015 #7
Supersedeas Aug 2015 #97
hifiguy Aug 2015 #17
Skittles Aug 2015 #18
Marr Aug 2015 #92
Hydra Aug 2015 #3
Ed Suspicious Aug 2015 #20
Hydra Aug 2015 #21
Chisox08 Aug 2015 #40
ananda Aug 2015 #4
Hydra Aug 2015 #8
WorseBeforeBetter Aug 2015 #14
ananda Aug 2015 #42
Gigabear Aug 2015 #58
ananda Aug 2015 #59
nomorenomore08 Aug 2015 #83
ladyVet Aug 2015 #96
romanic Aug 2015 #11
jberryhill Aug 2015 #13
Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #43
TreasonousBastard Aug 2015 #12
daredtowork Aug 2015 #15
GreatGazoo Aug 2015 #16
rusty quoin Aug 2015 #19
merrily Aug 2015 #28
Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2015 #22
nomorenomore08 Aug 2015 #24
Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2015 #61
arcane1 Aug 2015 #53
Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2015 #60
nomorenomore08 Aug 2015 #71
Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2015 #74
nomorenomore08 Aug 2015 #77
Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2015 #80
nomorenomore08 Aug 2015 #81
Leontius Aug 2015 #23
merrily Aug 2015 #29
MrScorpio Aug 2015 #25
Gormy Cuss Aug 2015 #26
merrily Aug 2015 #27
LanternWaste Aug 2015 #64
merrily Aug 2015 #68
Maedhros Aug 2015 #85
merrily Aug 2015 #86
Maedhros Aug 2015 #87
merrily Aug 2015 #88
Solomon Aug 2015 #30
Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #44
nomorenomore08 Aug 2015 #82
TM99 Aug 2015 #31
melman Aug 2015 #32
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2015 #33
joshcryer Aug 2015 #35
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2015 #38
joshcryer Aug 2015 #39
geek tragedy Aug 2015 #47
joshcryer Aug 2015 #69
geek tragedy Aug 2015 #70
joshcryer Aug 2015 #90
nomorenomore08 Aug 2015 #84
joshcryer Aug 2015 #34
ibegurpard Aug 2015 #45
geek tragedy Aug 2015 #46
Recursion Aug 2015 #93
geek tragedy Aug 2015 #95
Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #48
MrScorpio Aug 2015 #49
Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #55
haele Aug 2015 #62
MrScorpio Aug 2015 #63
haele Aug 2015 #75
MrScorpio Aug 2015 #89
haele Aug 2015 #94
joshcryer Aug 2015 #91
sibelian Aug 2015 #65
MrScorpio Aug 2015 #67
The Blue Flower Aug 2015 #36
Skidmore Aug 2015 #37
LineReply .
snagglepuss Aug 2015 #41
bettyellen Aug 2015 #50
Vinca Aug 2015 #51
Tarheel_Dem Aug 2015 #54
tabasco Aug 2015 #66
nomorenomore08 Aug 2015 #72
whatchamacallit Aug 2015 #73
SidDithers Aug 2015 #56
TBF Aug 2015 #76

Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:30 PM

1. But that is an oxymoron

Damn!

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Response to malaise (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:42 PM

10. +1

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:32 PM

2. sounds like many DUers are falling for this bullshit

it is very disconcerting indeed

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Response to Skittles (Reply #2)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:34 PM

5. I don't think there are many people "falling for it"

More that it's an official talking point that's been sent out to be posted everywhere.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:35 PM

6. but I have seen long-time DUers involved

it is very disturbing

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Response to Skittles (Reply #6)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:38 PM

9. There have been people floating questionable stuff here for a long time now

I remember people telling me that torture by the Bush Admin was ok, because they'd rather not be inconvenienced by impeachment actions. The people I am referring to though are the ones who get all the official talking points sent to them the night before events happen and try to launch them here.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #9)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 01:19 PM

52. Hell, remember how vicious the attacks were against critics of the "H" logo???

 

Simply saying "I don't care for it" was an invitation to be a republican misogynist who wants the Dems to lose. It was crazy-time

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Response to Hydra (Reply #9)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 01:56 PM

57. Yup. Generally the same people who are comfortable with torture, spying, and the TPP

 

Which tells you pretty much all you need to know.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:18 PM

78. Skittles ... We have been here a long time

 

And I never had more than two or three on my ignore list, for years and years ...

THIS year, however, I have seen many wonderful DUers fall into the trap of using questionable sources and ugly rhetoric to attack fellow DUers, in support of their preferred candidate ...

I'm not sure what I am going to do with them after the primary season is over ... But, I could have never guessed the level of ugly that has hit our fair DU forum these last few months ...

Sheesh ...

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Response to Trajan (Reply #78)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:29 PM

79. Seems to happen periodically, for maybe a few months every year or two. It's nothing new IMO.

We just have to try and ride it out the best we can.

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Response to Trajan (Reply #78)

Wed Aug 12, 2015, 01:09 AM

99. I am sick of these Tiger Beat club freaks

seriously SICK of them

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Response to Skittles (Reply #6)

Wed Aug 12, 2015, 12:49 AM

98. It's the white guilt thing.

I think the idea is that if they are contrite enough maybe they'll be acceptable to the more militant PoC groups and individuals. My favorites are the "I'm so ashamed I'm white" posts. Like, you had a choice?

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Response to Skittles (Reply #2)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:35 PM

7. Ben Carson is good at it

 

David Manning - the crazy New York preacher upset over semen in Starbucks coffee - pumps out this line continuously.

It used to be pretty common in NOI rhetoric.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #7)

Tue Aug 11, 2015, 11:11 PM

97. Identity politics resonates -- old white guys from the northeast are likely to have problems in this

area

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Response to Skittles (Reply #2)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 08:53 PM

17. Anyone who is falling for this horseshit and actually believing it

 

is no better than the fundy morons that believe any horror story their preachercreatures come up with.

It is disgusting to see long-timers getting suckered by this kind of crap. For by far the largest part, I've always thought of DUers as being a pretty bright group who are able to separate the sheep from the goats, intellectually speaking.

The woman in question has been unmasked as a right-wing fundy kook, but even that fact seems not to penetrate the skulls of the Kool-Aid guzzlers.

I thought cults of personality were for the Fauxsnooze zombies, but it's alive and well here of all places.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #17)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 09:23 PM

18. you kow it, hifiguy

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #17)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 11:56 PM

92. Identity politics makes a powerful wedge, it seems.

 

I expect we're going to see little else over the course of the primary season.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:33 PM

3. Well, I guess we liberals do everything else evil in RW imaginations

And in "centerist ones." I suppose that's only natural...because they NEVER do any of the things they accuse us of, right?? That would mean we were the only ones who could be doing it.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 10:10 PM

20. Someone should do a study. I wonder if there is a correlation between one's place on the

right/left political spectrum and the likelihood of being a perpetrator of what one is accusing the other side of doing. I think the more right-wing one's political persuasion the more likely one is to be a hypocrite who is guilty of doing the very thing they accuse their adversary of doing.

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #20)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 10:15 PM

21. How else would you think of it?

It has to be on your mind before you can accuse someone of it...but I'm biased. I remember that RW saying he would rape his kids if he didn't have the fear of God in him. I'll file that under the same letter as the homophobe I called out when he said it was a "lifestyle choice." I asked him if he would do it or take a bullet if the law said you had to be gay or die(reverse Iran situation). I told him I would take the bullet, he said he'd be gay "as long as I'm pitching, not catching!"

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #20)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:51 AM

40. I don't think that it is left/right it is more of an authoritarian thing.

I've noticed the more authoritarian a person is the more a person is likely to project their actions on others. This tactic is being used as a way to shut down conversation when the accuser is losing the debate or they have no real points to stand on.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:33 PM

4. Wow, to think that this kind of twisted history ...

... could actually gain traction.

This is worse than tragic. It's just devastating ...

But so much in these past 15 years has been.

To think we've come this far only to learn how
much we've regressed into a confused morass
of pure insanity!

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Response to ananda (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:35 PM

8. There are people who would rather "Burn it all down!" than see things improve

Actual quote from a DUer here.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:52 PM

14. That may have originated with angryblacklady on Twitter.

Seems she disapproved of Sanders' supporters sharing info re: his University of Chicago student activism days, plus of his participation in the March on Washington. In true temper-tantrum fashion, she suggested she'll burn the internet to the ground. Mind you, this is the same woman who took on Scahill and Walsh, and lost, in a BIG way.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 11:13 AM

42. Scorched earth and start all over again, eh...

I've always thought of this as the current tactic of
the GOP suicide squad.

Maybe that kind of thinking is contagious, though.

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Response to ananda (Reply #4)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 02:04 PM

58. There is also the conservative trope that liberal policies have crippled

 

the spirit and ambitions of Blacks and other minorities by making them dependent on government assistance programs. I hear that one regularly from my dad.

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Response to Gigabear (Reply #58)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 02:26 PM

59. And I suppose, repeated often enough ...

... it might have an affect on some vulnerable Blacks.

This whole mess is just tragic beyond tragic.

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Response to Gigabear (Reply #58)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:45 PM

83. Because cutting off gov't assistance in economically moribund areas is *really* going to improve

the situation. Living on food stamps etc. is far from ideal, needless to say, but it sure beats downright starvation.

As usual, we see Republicans' irrational faith in the saving power of "the free market" (whatever that means anymore).

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #83)

Tue Aug 11, 2015, 10:00 AM

96. When I have my tin foil hat on, this is actually sensible.

I see it as another step in the process of bringing jobs back to America. In no particular order:

Remove social safety net.
Destroy the education system.
Bust unions.
Remove all environmental and worker safety rules and regulations.
Eliminate the middle class.

When these things are a done deal, then manufacturing jobs will return, and people will work whatever hours they're told, with no benefits and low wages.

I don't think for a minute that corporations want to be in foreign countries, because they can't really control them. But getting control of the US government, with poor people pitted against each other for the crumbs from the 1%, and backed by the US military, and they'd be set for generations.

That's my dystopian nightmare, anyway.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:46 PM

11. It's a classic Black Republican trope

I also expect to hear "The Democratic Plantation" soon too. :/

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Response to romanic (Reply #11)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:52 PM

13. Oh yeah, that's a classic

 

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Response to romanic (Reply #11)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 11:27 AM

43. No, no... That's Democrat Plantation. Fixed.

 

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:49 PM

12. Newspeak-- up is down, cold is hot...

They teach you in Propaganda 101 that the lie that sticks is the one with a just enough truth in it that the target wants to believe it.

It's not really a right or left thing, although they tend to do it a lot more. It's a quirk of human nature that we toss logic out the door far too often.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 08:07 PM

15. I've seen "Black Lives Matter" used with anti-abortion ads

At the same time, I don't think we should let the ways the GOP is painting Democrats as White Supremacists absolve us from looking at ways we might be bringing criticism upon ourselves. *points to my own thread about propensity for "All Lives Matter" comments".

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 08:23 PM

16. The 2 big counter strategies used early in primaries are

#1 define your opponent before they have a chance to define themselves, and

#2 separate your opponent from their natural base / allies.

#2 seeks to kill off votes very directly -- it plays on cynicism and usually takes the form of 'this other candidate doesn't represent your interests / works against them' or 'is a phony.' It is a very effective counter-strategy when it works. Despicable, of course.

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Response to GreatGazoo (Reply #16)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 10:10 PM

19. Yes. They have all the tricks. We have to be mostly honest. nt

 

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Response to rusty quoin (Reply #19)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 05:37 AM

28. Democratic politicians are honest? Ok.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 10:26 PM

22. Another one they're repeating is, "Sanders crowd is too white".

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #22)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 02:42 AM

24. Well, they might have a point there...

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #24)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 02:30 PM

61. On their dunce cap....

 

Which looks a lot like a certain hood.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #22)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 01:23 PM

53. I was told right here on DU that Sanders deliberately avoids having non-whites in attendance

 

That's how far the crazy will go!

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #53)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 02:29 PM

60. Bush used to seat a few behind him for the cameras as he spoke to a room full of white males.

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #60)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:00 PM

71. He also used to rub black men's bald heads, as if for "good luck."

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #71)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:42 PM

74. Bush had a bald fetish....

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #74)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:17 PM

77. LOL! Who's that dude?

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #77)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:31 PM

80. Seriously?

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #80)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:37 PM

81. Oh shit, haven't heard that name in forever! Thanks for jogging my memory...

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Aug 9, 2015, 10:32 PM

23. That message seems to have found a home on DU as well

 

Are these long time members moles just now surfacing at a critical time or is it something more troubling.

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Response to Leontius (Reply #23)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 05:39 AM

29. Probably a mix of several things. However, posting something on DU doesn't mean it's

found a home here.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 05:13 AM

25. Understanding that white supremacy and liberalism aren't mutually exclusive isn't difficult...

Only if you're aware that there's more than one definition for "white supremacy."

http://www.sociologyinfocus.com/2013/04/08/white-supremacy-not-just-neo-nazis/

White supremacy is often mischaracterized as only a person or group of people (e.g. Neo Nazis & the KKK), but thinking of white supremacy in this way hides too many people who are affected by it. In this post Nathan Palmer will push us to think about white supremacy as an ideology and explore how each of us may personally believe it.

Every year we had a “multi-cultural day” at my elementary school. Usually in January (around Martin Luther King Day) or in February (to “celebrate” Black History Month). We’d eat foods from other cultures (there was always baklava), watch a movie about Dr. Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement, and learn about how racism used to be a problem in the United States. The overall message was clear to all of us kids, “racism is something mean people used to do and if you do anything racist today, you’re a big meanie”.

I can still remember the befuddled look on my teacher’s face when I walked up to her and asked, “If today is multicultural day, then what are the rest of the days?” Her face scrunched together, she folded her arms, and told me, “Oh, just go back to your seat this instant!”

I was thinking about my multicultural day experience recently because last week was the 45th anniversary of the assassination of Dr. Martine Luther King. The message I learned at these multicultural days (that racism is only a problem at the individual level) I think is largely still present in our society. But in many ways the issue of racism is as much about acts of discrimination as it is about the ideas and ideologies that support prejudice.

The Ideology of White Supremacy

To fully understand white supremacy we have to separate it from the people who identify as white. White supremacy is not a person or group of people, it’s an ideology. Ideology is fancy-sociology-speak for a collection of ideas that work together to affect how we see and understand the world around us. As an ideology, white supremacy encourages us to value white people, white culture, and everything associated with whiteness above the people, culture, and everything associated with people of color. We can encapsulate all of that by using the common white supremacist tagline, “white is right.”

We also have to separate white supremacy from white supremacists. Too often when we hear the word white supremacy we immediately think of men in white pointy hats standing around a burning cross. There’s no argument that the Kl Klux Klan and Neo Nazis subscribe to the white supremacist ideology, but they’re not the only ones. Anyone and everyone can adopt the ideology and white supremacy is reinforced by a wide variety of actions both big/small and intentional/unintentional.




One good way to understand how white supremacy works is by linking it to other type of power/privilege dynamics that exists in our society. Here's a discussion with Dr. Allan G. Johnson which should be quite instructive.



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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 05:18 AM

26. ^^^This^^^n/t

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 05:36 AM

27. Sorry. Sounds to me like a justification to call people white supremacists even if they are not.

What are Nathan Palmer's credentials?

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Response to merrily (Reply #27)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 03:34 PM

64. "Sounds to me" is much less valid than "actually is."

"Sounds to me" is much less valid than "actually is," though I do realize the rhetorical convenience the former allows. Inference merely give us the opportunity to pretend a thing means anything other than what it plainly states... if it better validates our own biases.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #64)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 03:54 PM

68. As you so often do, you are invalidly implying that I am biased and dishonest.

As you so often do, you are invalidly implying that I am biased and dishonest, based on some convoluted word game you conjure that doesn't stand up to the least bit of analysis.

I find your posting convention quite tiresome, too.

Since this kind of substance free insinuation is the only kind of post I have ever seen from you to me, I don't imagine I would miss much if I put you on ignore for a while. Bye for now.

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Response to merrily (Reply #68)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 08:26 PM

85. Good idea! I will, too. [n/t]

 

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #85)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 08:28 PM

86. It never occurred to you?

It never occurred to you?

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Response to merrily (Reply #86)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 08:29 PM

87. Just as I was reading his bulshit response, I thought "ignore list."

 

Then I read your post...

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #87)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 10:14 PM

88. All my life, I've held fast to two principles:

1. Word soup salad sandwiches are probative of bad character.

2. We've always been at war with Eastasia.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 05:43 AM

30. Glad you had the guts to do it Mr. Scorpio.

I didn't want to be the one to bust their bubble. White liberalism and white supremacy are definitely not mutually exclusive.

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Response to Solomon (Reply #30)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 11:31 AM

44. Really? Aren't all whites racial supremists?

 

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Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #44)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:40 PM

82. Of course not. But no one can live their whole life in a racist society without being affected

on some kind of level. The people who vehemently deny having "a single racist bone in my body" - and get unnecessarily defensive whenever the topic of race comes up - are a good example.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:03 AM

31. You are acting like this young woman

 

was giving an academic discourse in front of this crowd where she was citing sources to explain the subtle sociological differences between 'white supremacy' and 'white supremacists'. She was not.

She is a radical & an extremist. She was raging, bullying, and inappropriately insulting Sanders and the crowd. She was throwing around 'white supremacists' from that perspective, not your reasoned one.

Why excuse, justify, and rationalize for this immature individual? She is doing more harm than good for BLM and our community.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:29 AM

32. "We also have to separate white supremacy from white supremacists."

lol. No, no we don't.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:39 AM

33. Sure, they're not mutually exclusive.

But by the very definition you provide

white supremacy encourages us to value white people, white culture, and everything associated with whiteness above the people, culture, and everything associated with people of color.


I'd say anyone that fits that definition is already a racial bigot, and one you could figure out is a racial bigot within a few minutes of conversation about race. I don't think you could automatically logically assume an entire crowd of people who came out to a rally about social security and medicare all fit that definition, even if they almost all had white skin either.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #33)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:47 AM

35. It's not a purposeful thing though.

When the Civil Rights and Fair Housing Acts passed they were stopping behavior enshrined in local laws (and also at a federal level with the FHA which purposefully denied minorities mortgages), but it's not like suddenly minorities got rented to or got mortgages. Redlining is still real, even with laws saying you can't do that.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #35)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:03 AM

38. racial bigotry doesn't have to be 'purposeful'

A lot of people simply grew up learning it from the bigots before them.

I still would say it would be pretty easy to spot people who 'value whiteness' above all other cultures in 'casual' conversation, and based on everything we see in which politics appeal to which people, I'm fairly sure a general rule of thumb is the more likely you are to 'value whiteness' the more likely you are to vote RW. As MrScorpio says, it's not exclusive, but I think the correlation exists, even if there are people who don't fit the 'rule'. Liberals tend to try to teach their kids to embrace multiculturalism, to welcome immigrants from majority non-white countries, to learn to enjoy experiences and value people that come from outside their 'white' bubble.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #38)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:11 AM

39. Oh I think you can spot it really easily, no question.

One huge giveaway in real life is dismissive attitudes about any sort of social justice. But online it gets complicated because almost everyone who has had an anonymous interaction with someone has been dismissed or belittled or whatever. Even when the person on the other end of the keyboard is especially caring about a given issue they can get caught up in that crap. Internet identity politics create these really stupid lines in the sand which aren't really relevant. And yes every time I point this out I admit I've fallen into that cycle before too, I'm not immune from it.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #35)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 11:44 AM

47. is there any meaningful difference between:

 

white supremacism
racism
institutional/systemic racism
unconscious discrimination

I get that some sociologists may use the terms interchangeably, but that's not how they're understood by most people in society.

And when one drops the phrase "white supremacist" the picture that comes into everyone's mind is Dylan Root, not Bernie Sanders.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #47)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 05:51 PM

69. I don't advocate the terminology, mind you.

I think it serves the opposite effect. But I can see it being used by a passionate and angry activist during a militant action.

I think it's ultimately counter intuitive and toxic.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #69)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 05:55 PM

70. I guess. But even for academics/activists there's a humungous difference

 

between talking about white supremacy and calling someone a white supremacist.

Combine that with the loathsome hashtag #bowdownbernie and it seems this stopped being about the cause and more about the ego.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #70)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 11:35 PM

90. I strongly dislike word appropriation (or re-purposing) in academia.

It serves the very purpose that you suggest even if the underlying argument is sound or at least has some merit. The first thing that happens is that people automatically discount what is being argued.

I've seen similar word appropriation or re-purposing in environmental circles. Where people who believe that technology can help us solve the environmental problems are called genocidal. On one hand it's not terribly off base because, say, factory farming is pretty egregious, but technology making lab grown meat takes us further away from that bad use of it. That may be a poor example, I'm just saying, if someone makes an argument using words how they're not used in common parlance I can understand it being dismissed outright.

It stems from anger mostly and in our modern media atmosphere of clickbait nonsense it also probably comes from how we get our information. We can all do better in that respect.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #33)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:52 PM

84. It's not necessarily conscious and intentional, though. That's the really insidious thing about it.

As in many areas of life, a person can have the very best of intentions and still screw up from time to time.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:44 AM

34. Johnson's statements on intent are powerful.

Extremely powerful.

More reading: http://www.agjohnson.us/essays/whome/

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 11:34 AM

45. Good luck getting people to listen

It doesn't matter how right you are. People are going to shut down when you throw that kind of language out there.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 11:40 AM

46. to me this is a bridge way too far. are there any white people who don't count

 

as white supremacists under this expansive definition? It seems to imply that if you're a white person who's immersed in white culture (whether it be NASCAR or ugly Christmas sweater parties) that you're a white supremacist.

If a person deems Bernie Sanders's supporters to be "white supremacists" that pretty much strips the term down to meaning "white people."

Note that there's nothing in the article you posted that illustrates how a liberal can be a white supremacist.

it seems like using shock language for attention,

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #46)

Tue Aug 11, 2015, 12:52 AM

93. Why is that important?

I think part of the sea change that needs to happen is that white people need to stop making racial questions about themselves. Your first response shouldn't be "how can I not be racist in this situation?"

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Response to Recursion (Reply #93)

Tue Aug 11, 2015, 06:37 AM

95. I'm not particularly obsessed with that question.

 

But, when people start referring to "white supremacist liberals" I just write them off as a crank and stop caring what they have to say-block their signal.

Bernie does need to take control of his own events. He looks like he's getting pushed around. Which is okay if you're a Senator, but when auditioning for a job that includes dealing with Mitch McConnell, Vladimir Putin, and Benjamin Netanyahu, at some point he has to put his foot down and have the intruders removed.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 11:54 AM

48. People on DU are still struggling to understand racism 101

This is way over a lot of heads here, unfortunately.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #48)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 01:07 PM

49. These are smart folks, I'm sure that education won't hurt...

Plus, there's plenty of information available. Here's a pretty good article that I'd like to share with everyone right here:

FRIDAY, APR 10, 2015 02:16 PM EDT

White America’s racial illiteracy: Why our national conversation is poisoned from the start

I am white. I have spent years studying what it means to be white in a society that proclaims race meaningless, yet is deeply divided by race. This is what I have learned: Any white person living in the United States will develop opinions about race simply by swimming in the water of our culture. But mainstream sources—schools, textbooks, media—don’t provide us with the multiple perspectives we need.

Yes, we will develop strong emotionally laden opinions, but they will not be informed opinions. Our socialization renders us racially illiterate. When you add a lack of humility to that illiteracy (because we don’t know what we don’t know), you get the break-down we so often see when trying to engage white people in meaningful conversations about race.

Mainstream dictionary definitions reduce racism to individual racial prejudice and the intentional actions that result. The people that commit these intentional acts are deemed bad, and those that don’t are good. If we are against racism and unaware of committing racist acts, we can’t be racist; racism and being a good person have become mutually exclusive. But this definition does little to explain how racial hierarchies are consistently reproduced.

Social scientists understand racism as a multidimensional and highly adaptive system—a system that ensures an unequal distribution of resources between racial groups. Because whites built and dominate all significant institutions, (often at the expense of and on the uncompensated labor of other groups), their interests are embedded in the foundation of U.S. society.

http://www.salon.com/2015/04/10/white_americas_racial_illiteracy_why_our_national_conversation_is_poisoned_from_the_start_partner/

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #49)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 01:32 PM

55. Great article.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #49)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 03:24 PM

62. I can understand the difference between the heirarchal roots of social supremacy -

And I understand that most activists tend to react to a problem statement.
My view the current culture that is approved by the established power structure in this country is pretty much uniformly white, reactionary, hyper-sexual, and pretty much categorizes and then rates or puts a price on everything and everything. American society is increasingly Manichean, and pretty much everything that isn't easy or "perfect" is disposable, which re-enforces the position of those in power.
This is pretty much the problem statement in a nutshell.
I work to change this as much as I can, through support, through example, through acts.
While I recognize that being born into a position of relative privilege to be able to indulge in my curiosities and interests, where I don't have to worry that my skin color is the very first thing that people will notice from a distance when they see me - before they even come close enough to interact with me, I can also understand that people who don't have that privilege have a justifiable right to be angry that there is this difference.
I'm not going to support purported anarchists who would potentially replace one tyranny with another. I don't like blood in the streets, not from the cops who are protecting the status quo, and not from nihilists who want the world to burn because they're not in charge.

Y'know, I'm by no means racially illiterate; but I will say I'm not "racially experienced". I am aware of the difficulties that a hierarchal power structure places on people who don't look like those in the position of power, I'm also aware of how f'n selfish people are about their privileges, the differences - and similarities - between cultures across the world (especially when it comes to "strangers" or outsiders), and how history works when people are segregated by class, race, and other "tribal" indicators (religion, etc). I'm not butt-hurt when people call me privileged in some ways, because - I am. Doesn't matter if I had ancestors who owned slaves or not. I live in the US and I'm white.



All this being said, I'm a white lady who doesn't fit in with the supremacy, but I suspect that I would be escorted against the wall right next to a confederate-flag toting payday lender/house flipper with just as glee by the ladies purporting to represent BLM who hogged the mic at the Saunder's event. How different are they from the PTB?

So, I would still like to see a bit more conversation from these nihilists that goes past the statement of the problem, and into what really is being represented, and how best to make improvements to get past the institutionalized white supremacy and the entrenched power structure.
What do they see for the future? How do they see government working? Do we break it down into splinter groups and clans, or are we a cohesive whole? It's easy to say "fight the power". It's far more difficult to be responsible with power once you get it.
Personally, I would like to replace this culture with a culture where people are encouraged to work through difficult barriers and boundaries, to think outside themselves, where quality of life is not measured through quantity of celebrity or costs, and to be curious and find happiness with things and people who are different. That people can live their lives and not worry about being insulted, denied, or killed because they're "different".

That's a future wish, and it doesn't take away from "Black Lives Matter" - because BLM is now. A reaction to a social cancer we have to deal with now.

But dealing with problems we have now doesn't mean we have to make working on a future the enemy, does it? Can we do both and respect both? Or do we have to tear down all of the now and rebuild from scratch, then work on a future?

Or am I just being too old and wanting my own privileged comfort too much?
Go ahead - I've got a big butt, I can take it. But I would like that discussion.

Haele

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Response to haele (Reply #62)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 03:33 PM

63. When you listened to the voices of these black women, what did you hear?

And let's go back to that first interaction back at between Democrats and BLM at Netroots Nation?

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #63)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:59 PM

75. As to the Seattle event, I heard anger, pain and a need to express that anger and pain.

And that is understandable because they were talking to the power structure from a position of people who have been beaten down and were powerless against it. That rage wasn't expressed in a way I would have expressed my rage, but it's the way those women felt they needed to express it.
Because of time constraints in my life right now, I hadn't watched the first interaction between the Dems and BLM at Netroots Nation, which from the reports, I would guess was a typical un-organized liberal "who's got the loudest voice and biggest wallet to amplify that voice over the crowd" mess; I've only seen the Seattle Bernie event because I graduated HS in Seattle and had the time to watch.
While so-called "leaderless" movements are good for taking on multiple interconnected issues where people can work for a direct impact, without a peer resource steering structure, they don't tend to do well confronting national or governance issues. I suspect that's one of the reasons the current Democratic organization has a problem with these groups; the big "D" democrats are driven by an overarching governing agenda that butts up against the little "d" democratic process.

When I was very young, my parents were both working students at Berkley off and on over the 1960's decade; I participated and experienced a lot of the radical movements - anti-war, feminism, racial equality, income and social justice - societal evolution. And I saw where a lot of the participation and energy in many of those movements came from people who were looking to fulfill a personal need (professional victims) rather than instigate a cultural shift. I also saw a lot of tricksters and contrarians who were playing spoiler in those movements, whether they actually believed in the status quo or they were just looking for a soft target to play their games in.

That's one of the reasons I tried to be careful about judgment of the BLM movement as a whole and only to address that particular event. The BLM movement is extremely important when it comes to the issue of race, policing, and community participation and development.

I'm not arguing the BLM movement; I'm not the primary victim at all. All I can do is sit back and let the principles in this issue decide how it's going to play out. (edited because I realize I hadn't written what I meant to say)
We have a serious problem with race that has been danced around all my life, and I'm sick and tired of the lack of progress. That being said - I did not feel like these ladies would welcome me if I asked to try and help, except to be made an example of. I've heard enough sorry white jerks talk like that, and I know what they would do to a black man or woman who was unlucky enough be part of their team to get a project done. There are people full of rage because of what was done to them or their community, and there are people who are addicted to rage looking for an easy target.

I'm not asking to be coddled if I asked to join their chapter, I'm not asking to "take charge" or to be doing any "white-splain"; hell, I'd expecting that I would be asked to shoulder a lot of the burdens, and I would expect to get my whiteness thrown in my face occasionally when working to turn racism around, just as I occasionally get my femaleness thrown in my face trying to do my job in a man's world.
But I'm not sure I'd sign up if all I was going to be was a target, and there wasn't an ending that included the wellbeing of the world as a whole.

Trading one exclusionary culture for another is Bronze Age thinking. I'm not saying "let's get past this", or "let bygones be bygones". I'll pay the price - even if I didn't incur the bill, because it's what's fair and will make the world a better place - but I'm not selling the future to pay it.
What I heard in those black women's words was a warning that I better not even question them now or in the future, because they've decided they've had enough and are going to take charge.

Personally, this is just one of a series of troubling warning shots to someone like me who remembers the civil rights era that has been going on since the early 2000's; mainly because those of us who really did try to make a change rather than go through the motions for ego-boo and then give up the cause to maintain the status quo now are afraid the chickens have finally come home to roost, and it ain't going to be pretty for anyone, no matter what color they are or how rich they are over the next couple decades. I had a bit of hope there in the 2008/2009 period, but the drive to keep the status quo - on both sides of the right and left spectrum - pretty much killed it.
After watching the U.S. careen through the 80's with disenfranchisement, ignorance, and isolation increasing throughout society, my father and I would talk about how long it would take before we as a country just tore ourselves apart along cultural lines and ultimately fall apart as a failed state just so a few people on top could get rich. I think we're just about there. The old methods failed because of internal enemies. Will the new methods work?

Haele

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Response to haele (Reply #75)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 10:40 PM

89. If you don't mind, I'd like you to check out this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=20516

I've included an article with an interview with the women who led the demonstration at Netroots Nation.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #89)

Tue Aug 11, 2015, 01:22 AM

94. Thank you, provides some food for thought.

Unfortunately, the optics are such that I think any attempt to attack the chimera of institutional racism will leave people thinking that their cause isn't being considered enough in the forefront.
Most social justice groups have attempted to pick at the issue incrementally to get it to the tipping point because the general public isn't typically involved - be they black or white -which is never the best way. The approach would optimally be coordinated and multi-pronged, but even then, progress will take time, and we would hope not to have a recurrence of the backlash to "the war on poverty" and the civil rights movements, both of which stalled miserably in the late 1970's/early 1980's and lead to the bullshit "three strikes/war on drugs/no tolerance/privatized services" society the John Birchers and their ilk laid the bedrock for. We've been rat-fucked as a nation too long by the practice of profiting off division and political gamesmanship of "compassionate conservatism/Third Way", and it may be that the entire apparatus of entrenched power in every sector - economic, legal, social/media, etc... - will need to be pulled out by the roots before there can be any attempt at social justice.

I've been hearing echoes of the 60's since the early 2000's; I would hope that technology can help us to coordinate the battle better and bring about resolutions quicker, but I fear that the fact that it is too late for many who didn't have to suffer, be incarcerated, or die simply because we as a society still haven't gotten over the color of someone's skin will encourage a turn to that anarchy, that can easily be picked apart and used to build a system even more openly monstrous than the one we have now.

It's a fine line social justice work needs to walk. How do we coordinate a strategy that balances policing and incarceration, education, social services, jobs and opportunities when there's a lot of money being made and power surrounding the imbalance of these critical components necessary to combat and provide restitution when it comes to the racist structure in the U.S.? It's not a simple answer, and not many would respect a switch in focus or new policy development that seems reactionary rather than proactive, even from someone who would agree that the new focus fits in with their existing platforms.

Do we work together on correcting a perceived flaw in a solid tool, utilizing and coordinating talents and resources, or do we work separately, categorizing and dumping otherwise good tools and resources because they don't "fit" a particular focus or plan of action? Because of our Bi-Cameral system, it's near impossible to get away from the Republican/Democratic influence in government. So the question becomes, how should BLM use Saunders, or O'Malley, or Clinton - or Bush, or Kasich, or whomever the gets out of the clown car of the GOP - to get the WoDs and injustice system turned around as soon as possible to start saving some lives and futures? The follow on would be how does BLM grow their community leaders in such a way that when they get into politics, they can work more quickly to actually begin to influence the system rather than simply mouthing platitudes and supporting the Status Quo to be able to get along and ahead. A lot of people have started out trying to do the right thing, and the system ends up eating them.
But is anarchy any better? Or is there somewhere in between. What needs to be tweaked, the tactics or the strategy?
As I said, there's a lot to think about. And better people than me have gotten their assess kicked trying to make the world a better place.

Haele

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #63)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 11:38 PM

91. When I first saw that video I was fucking pissed.

I was pissed the fuck off. What they did to Sanders was absolute garbage. But after I calmed down and just let my inner thought process work rather than an emotional response it became clear to me that the anger comes from somewhere. And if you're not drawing attention to that and trying to understand that the dismissive attitude that you're putting off is what makes it even worse.

Jayapal's comments on this are probably the best I've seen out of this whole fiasco: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7059720

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #25)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 03:37 PM

65. More than one definition...? OOOOOOOH.


That's VERY convenient.

That way you can insult people surreptitiously as much as you like and feign innocence until the cows come home.

I see that you mention further upthread that DUers are "smart people", well, you don't believe that, Scorpio.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #65)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 03:44 PM

67. I'm absolutely positive that the article and video that I've included are self-explanatory

But let me ask you this, would you agree that this country is racially and culturally biased towards, for and by the white majority or not?


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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:58 AM

36. Orwellian newspeak if I ever heard it

That phrase turns the meaning of words on its head. We should all know better than to buy into it.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:59 AM

37. Why a serious meeting of minds on the left

needs to occur and we do need to arrive at common understanding of the messages from the left no matter who the candidate is. We all have much to lose by not doing so. Lifting each other up is a good way to start and that is something outside of the realm of politics. It is common decency and a respect for others.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 08:11 AM

41. .

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 01:09 PM

50. which has little to do with people wanting policy proposals from Sanders, but.....

 

carry on.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 01:10 PM

51. That particular label has me so pissed off I can barely keep my blood pressure in a safe range.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 01:23 PM

54. Yup. No racist liberals. Got it.




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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #54)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 03:43 PM

66. Where did the OP state that?

 

Why do you attempt to disrupt the conversation with falsehoods?

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #54)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:34 PM

72. "White supremacist" is a very loaded term, for most people. Regardless, I see the point and am not

offended by the phrasing. For those who are, clearly it struck a nerve somewhere.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #54)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 06:38 PM

73. You think they're common?

How many do you know? Are you one?

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 01:32 PM

56. Paul Craig Roberts is a favourite of many DUers...

But they conveniently ignore PCR's opinions on social issues, and focus only on his economic views.

Sid

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Mon Aug 10, 2015, 07:02 PM

76. It goes along with their "elitist" and "latte liberals" tags -

playing on the "they think they're better than you" BS ... this comes straight from Karl Rove's play book.

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