Protest 101: Raise the visibility of your group and it's goals - BLM's netroots and seattle are wins

[stevenleser]

You may not like how they protested or whom they protested, but their actions are successful by at least one major criteria of protesting.

They have raised the visibility of Black Lives Matter and thus its goals. And by that important criteria, they did it right and were successful.

We're probably going to be talking about BLM and what to do about protecting the lives of African Americans for the rest of the 2016 election season.

And that is as it should be.

[Egnever]

1. Lol yup worked out great for the weatherman

What a bunch of nonsense

[stevenleser]

5. You're conflating this with a group that discredited themselves with bombings and jailbreaks?

Gandhi would smile at the obvious difference you are missing.

[Egnever]

13. Oh so you have some imaginary line where bad behavior become unaceptable

Maybe you could draw us all a chart and show us where that line is. The one crossed with Bernie was a pretty clear one for me. The backlash is pretty obvious but if you want to pretend it was great exposure more power to you.

[stevenleser]

14. Imaginary line?

[Egnever]

17. Haha yea looks real similar

Bernie does a great job of channeling Ghandi the protesters not so much.

[stevenleser]

24. Yeah, you can imagine you have a point. But you don't. nt

[Egnever]

26. Says the guy trying to equate the Seattle disruption to Ghandi

[icymist]

64. I missed the part where Gandhi yanked the microphone away from a

Jewish speaker who lost a huge chunk of his family in the Holocaust, yelling that everyone in the audience were all liberal white supremacists. All this while screaming less than a foot away from a 73 year old man while threatening to shut down the event unless he got his way. Nope... I missed that about Gandhi.

[Gravitycollapse]

65. Do you know how many people lost family in the Holocaust?

I fail to see the faintest relevance between his family history or his age and the claims of the protesters.

You're grasping at straws.

[icymist]

66. I feel sorry for you if you can't see the difference.

[PoutrageFatigue]

89. Indeed...

...

[NobodyHere]

94. You do know that Gandhi was very racist right?

[stevenleser]

96. You do know you are overanalyzing this, right? nt

[bettyellen]

84. there was an OP comparing them to rioters and bomb throwers yesterday. unhinged bullshit....

and every bit of it from people who adored OWS. Funny how that works, huh?

[bettyellen]

2. O Malley has come out with specific policies- Sanders added a page to his website! Win- Win!

Yes somehow too many here think they should be like OWS. LOL.

[stevenleser]

8. Yup. So many DUers say they are doing it wrong. They are exceeding their best possible hopes so far

Every group that protests hopes they will be this successful.

[aspirant]

37. Are you protesting on Fox propaganda

and how successful are you?

[brentspeak]

3. The disruptors are essentially anti-Democratic party activists

Interesting that you support their disruption.

[pnwmom]

102. The disruptors are people who put racial issues front and center --

they don't really care about party politics, IMO.

And who are we to say what's most important in their lives?

[Hydra]

4. You forgot the part where they cast doubt on their organization

And now they are going to have to walk it back or be seen as irrelevant.

[stevenleser]

6. Every protest group has folks who think they did that. It doesn't matter. And more to the point all

the candidates are now tripping over themselves to address BLM's issues.

Your attempt at a point completely falls apart there.

[Hydra]

11. No, that's the thing

We were all working on the issue before this, and now that they've tripped up, we'll work on it again as an all inclusive thing. If anything, they tried to foul the social justice movement up by adding dangerous elements to the mix.

Unless BLM pulls a 180, no one will remember they existed in a few months.

[RiffRandell]

58. Yeah, and several people that saw that horrible display may think twice.

Or characterize it into I don't even know what; I can think of some words like obnoxious, disrespectful, hurting the DEM cause which didn't bother them in the least.

If you think ANY Repub candidates give a fuck about AA you are dreaming.

I wonder how many times if at all this woman has voted in her life.

[seveneyes]

7. It did more harm than good

More heat than light.

[stevenleser]

9. Not if every major candidate for the Democratic nomination is rushing to address their issues.

It doesn't get much better than that.

[Hydra]

12. Clinton is addressing their issues?

[brentspeak]

15. Or maybe leser considers Hillary to be just a minor candidate

[stevenleser]

16. Seeing is believing.

[Egnever]

19. That was two or so weeks ago at least

You are now going to pretend this is a response to the Bernie incident?

[riversedge]

32. oh for pete's sake! Are you bickering over which candidate addressed the

issue first. Such nonsense. The point as the OP points out--our Dem candidates are speaking of the important issues now.

[Egnever]

36. Nope

I am pointing out that the video he posted had nothing to do with what happened with Bernie. He is trying to pretend the clusterfuck in Seattle was a good thing because now all the candidates are rushing to adress it and offers as proof a video from at least two weeks before it happened.

[riversedge]

41. Well, I think it might have as the Netroots incident with Bernie

and O"M happened prior to the U-tube Hillary video that steve.. posted. I forget the date when Hillary made that comment that All lives matter in a black church but since she has keyed in--evolved to BLM. So I do think the protesters have educated our Dem candidates and now are all talking about BLM. (not sure what Webb and Chafe (sp) are doing.

[notadmblnd]

34. is this the one where she says "all lives matter?"

I can't watch it right now, I'm steaming the Senator at his even in Portland

[cwydro]

103. I'm still wondering why the president and his AG

haven't addressed these issues.

Funny how they seem to want a white person to fix things.

[Jetboy]

10. What they did was wrong no matter how you slice it or make 2nd grade excuses for it like

'other groups did such and such'. It's best to do the right thing, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. They also turned a lot of people off on the movement.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. I think that affinity and popularity is more important than simple visibility.

The Kardashians have visibility.

[aikoaiko]

20. Could have done that to a Republican.

Unfortunately, we're not talking about protecting black lives, we're talking about protecting Bernie from BLM.

[AuntPatsy]

22. Can't help but agree

[stevenleser]

23. What loss of credibility? All major Democratic candidates are busy rolling out plans to address them

that doesn't sound like a loss of credibility to me.

[romanic]

25. Will it be enough to please these zealots

who are hijacking BLM, I think not.

[NaturalHigh]

28. I imiagine they're also planning some extra security to greet them...

at the next event they try to hijack.

[TM99]

30. And yet, even after Sanders

has been addressing BLM issues since July, he was still harassed?

Go read their manifesto Steven. Seriously.

Not all publicity is good publicity.

Name calling. Bullying. Boundary violations. Those are not protesting. And those backfire on groups all the time.

[NaturalHigh]

27. Give them credit for one thing - they created a lot of sympathy for Sanders.

I'm not even planning to vote for Bernie Sanders, and I feel sympathetic toward his campaign after the yokels insulted him and tried to intimidate him on stage.

[bullwinkle428]

29. The topic of income inequality was literally never discussed by any of

the mainstream media or political figures prior to the OWS movement. Now, it's become practically a requirement, at least as far as the Democratic side.

[Starry Messenger]

31. k&r

[tkmorris]

33. PETA gets lots of attention as well

I know that the popular, cliched and trite wisdom is that any publicity is good publicity, especially for a cause such as this. It isn't always true however. BLM is seriously running the risk of alienating those most willing to ally with them.

[Comrade Grumpy]

35. BLM is alienating a lot of people who are their natural allies. You could call that I win, I suppose

[Cali_Democrat]

43. Well...it appears the tactics are working:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-racial-inequality_55c81153e4b0f1cbf1e56b77?section=politics

However, your concern is still noted.

[Doctor_J]

38. think of how much they could elevate their cause by terrorizing a Clinton event

Or a republican event

This op is pretty bizarre, even for you.

[TheBlackAdder]

39. Yep. Raised BLM's Visibility: They allowed Co-Option as an Uncontrolled Organization. nt

[MADem]

40. Who knew that on DU, we'd be hearing that protest is BAD!!!

I didn't see twenty or thirty threads complaining about protest when Code Pink went all over Obama....and I didn't see twenty or thirty threads complaining when Occupy shut down Civil Rights Icon and Congressman John Lewis....

But a quick glance at the board lately tells me that three young adults yelling at a rally is the End Of The World As We Know It, apparently.

And a quick glance at this thread leads me to believe that some DUers are opposed to this time-honored expression of grievance~!!!

I guess it's only OK if it's directed at candidates they don't like, or something.



The more things change...

[RobertEarl]

50. Good Point

But bad premise.

See, Bernie is Black people's current best hope for the change they deserve.

The protests that you mention were protests against oppressors and other evil bastards.

Given that the deck is stacked against Bernie, and there are thousands of DUers who feel the Bern, and know what we are up against, the reaction to them laying a hand on Bernie and disrupting his speech, is seen as a ridiculous assault.

And now you know.

BLM can salvage their reputation, but I wonder if they have the wisdom to do so.

[MADem]

56. Those protesters do not care about putting their "best hope" on a politician.

They weren't coming at their protest from a mainstream BLM perspective--they were representing a more "direct confrontation" line of thought. And they don't give a crap about politicians. https://outsideagitators206.org/who-we-are/


They want focus on the issues they deem important. They're not going to ask nicely. They just don't care what you, me, or politicians think.

And so, they are "acting up." They are "Code Pink-ing." They are "Occupy-ing." They are being ... outrageous. You know, that thing that's enshrined in our national fabric--that "protest" thing. It's sometimes messy. Sometimes uncomfortable.

And judging by the number of angry threads about these ladies with their bad reputations, they hit a soft spot at the center of their target. From THEIR perspective, their effort was a success.

If they didn't matter, and if their anger didn't resonate, this would be two or three threads about this, tops, and everyone would be on to the Next Big Thing--instead, Sanders left that rally, went to a fundraiser, and focused on the issues of concern to those young women everyone's disparaging here. Then he repeated himself at his big speech later that evening.

So....who "wins?" DU, or those protesters?

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/black-lives-matter-protesters-shut-down-bernie-sanders-rally/
“When we stand together, when black and white stand together, when gay and straight stand together, when women and men stand together,” Sanders told the cheering crowd, which paid $200 to $1,000 to get in, “when we stand together, there is nothing, nothing, that we cannot accomplish.”

In a written statement addressing the Westlake protest, Sanders said he was “disappointed that two people disrupted a rally attended by thousands … I was especially disappointed because on criminal-justice reform and the need to fight racism there is no other candidate for president who will fight harder than me.”

In a news release posted on social media, local Black Lives Matter activists said they were holding Sanders and other white progressives accountable for failing to support their movement.

Citing the anniversary of Brown’s death, they said, “We honor black lives by doing the unthinkable, the unapologetic, and the unrespectable.”

Activists with the movement have shut down Seattle streets and local events before, arguing such direct action is needed to shake people out of complacency over the deaths of black men and women at the hands of police. In December, they disrupted a Christmas tree-lighting ceremony at Westlake.

Some Sanders supporters were chagrined at the way his speech was cut off and said the protesters hurt their own cause.

They aren't worried about THEIR reputation, they won't be cowed by finger wagging or tsk-tsking--they know that the politicians who don't address their issues aren't going to get their votes. And they'll keep pointing it out. They don't want to be talked at, or down to, or told that they are "unwise" with "bad reputations"--they want action, not platitudes. Frankly, the salvaging needs to happen on the politicians' side--they need to salvage their chance at securing African American votes. Without an enthused participation from the minority community, these politicians vying for the Dem nomination can't win.

So -- who needs "wisdom" here?

Bravenak tried to tell people this was coming. No one wanted to hear her. It's not going to go away, either, just because a bunch of people on DU are OUTRAGED at the NERVE of these PEOPLE!

It's going to be an interesting campaign season.

[OneGrassRoot]

68. Great post. And, btw....

you're right about my OP in GD; it probably should be in GDP.

I haven't engaged at DU in a long time and that OP morphed and probably did belong more in GDP. I trust the mods will do what's best, but I wanted to acknowledge your comment.

[MADem]

73. Thanks...

I think the hosts (we don't have mods anymore--that's part of the reason why there's some bad behavior during this primary season) have abdicated. Can't say as I blame them; they should probably get paid--combat pay, too--for managing this mess.

[OneGrassRoot]

74. Ooops, sorry about the emoticon snafu...

and, yes, I think there should be paid positions here. That's why I want create a space that is member- and worker-owned (not competing with DU though). So tired of site owners making lots of money off of others' content and hard work (like HuffPo).

[AOR]

42. Unfortunately the group and its goals...

are hardly clear. They could be... but so far there is no mention of the complicity of the Black capitalist ruling class and their mouthpieces, the Black political leadership class, and the utter and complete failure to do anything about Black unemployment, urban poverty, exploitation, police brutality, ect...in poor AA communities. What are your views on capitalist social relations and their connection with institutionalized racism and the devastating effects on poor AA communities stevenleser ? Take your time and think it through with class analysis and then form a reply on how Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and the neoliberal policies of the currently constructed Democratic Party line up with any actual demands being made by Black Lives Matter activists.

Critiquing Bernie Sanders and the possible effectiveness of reform is one thing if one is an actual leftist and believes the possibility of capitalist reforms are whistling past the graveyard. Critiquing and bashing Bernie Sanders and thinking that more corporate Democrats, neoliberal policy, and more rightward drift of the Democratic Party is the answer is quite another.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. I'm sure they'll raise the profile even more when they shut down a Hillary speech and drive her

from the stage, then. right?

I mean. Makes sense.

Oh, wait, that'll never happen. Odd.

[Cali_Democrat]

45. They'll disrupt her sooner or later

Keep in mind Bernie is doing more public events at the moment in an effort to raise his profile. Also, Hillary has Secret Service protection. No way they could have gotten that close to her.

But I think they will disrupt one of her events in the near future.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. It will be interesting to see how many people are still in favor of these sorts of antics, then.

[Cali_Democrat]

48. Welll...their tactics are working:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-racial-inequality_55c81153e4b0f1cbf1e56b77?section=politics

No question about it.

The OP is on point.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. I suspect they could have gotten the exact same result and still let him give his speech.

But, again, if these tactics are so great, I guess we'll see how popular they are if they're used against other candidates.

[bettyellen]

83. all of a sudden OWS supporters just hate people protesting, and that is interesting...

[Warren DeMontague]

86. I don't know. I dont have the list of who is on what team, for starts.

Personally, I was never a big OWS fan, I was one of those old-fashioned weenies who thought that the idea of a movement deliberately avoiding defined "goals", for one, was doomed to irrelevancy.

But speaking of old-fashioned, I guess I feel that if some politician or candidate is scheduled to give a speech, the nominally decent thing to do is let them have their time at the microphone instead of bullying them off the stage. I would even extend that to Republicans. Like, I couldn't stand Dubya, but I didn't think heckling him or shutting him down was appropriate, much less terribly productive, either.

[bettyellen]

87. yeah, this weekend was not the best sort of protest. But the response here just made it worse.

Time to thicken the skin and get proactive about this shit, no doubt. Smarter than arguing the local NAACP is wrong, anyway.
And yep, pretty much everyone who hates BLM was a huge fan of OWS, so go figure that out.

[whatchamacallit]

70. Twitter has no security

They're a no-show on Hillary.

[RiffRandell]

60. We would hear about it on DU until the cows come home.

If they make it home. With a branding of Grade F.

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. Odd indeed. +1 n/t

[PeaceNikki]

46. Yup. Their disruption led to Bernie’s explicit platform on racial justice.

Here's a good piece:

http://changefromwithin.org/2015/08/09/interrupting-bernie-exposing-the-white-supremacy-of-the-american-left/

[reorg]

105. thanks for posting

this link which also includes the video of the 'disruption'.

Finally, we can see what this dangerous, dangerous and dangerously impolite young woman actually said:

[moondust]

49. They raised the visibility of

how easy it is to hijack leaderless movements and have scores of people like yourself fall for it.

[joshcryer]

51. This is the only goal of militant action.

The single and only goal and it's all it can do. This is why while I don't advocate militant direct action I don't outright condemn it nor do I act as if it somehow happens in a vacuum.

What I feel is that people are upset about Sanders being targeted for all the wrong reasons. He's being targeted because he's accessible, because he's out there, because he's drawing huge crowds. And people upset that they're not attacking Republicans, that wouldn't be very newsworthy.

And to people insulting you for this OP, while I think it's somewhat off base (they likely had been working on that comprehensive platform for awhile now, likely before even the first BLM protest; Sanders' campaign sees that Clinton gets automatic cred due to Bill's dealings with AA), the protest in Seattle at most got them to release the platform sooner rather than later.

[Trajan]

52. It's time to say goodbye ...

Click ....

[2pooped2pop]

53. Nope. Fail

Could have accomplished those goals by going after the offenders rather than the defenders. But for some strange reason they chose Bernie. Those 3 people....

chose to go after the only one who would stand up for them.

Nope, not Protest 101

fail

[loyalsister]

54. You nailed it!

People seem to think that the motivation behind disruption is to antagonize.

That is not necessarily so. I am thinking that people need to rethink that and consider the possibility that the goal is to get people to listen to them.
It's not about Bernie or Democrats, it's about demanding that attention be paid to BLM. Approaching Bernie is the obvious choice if they want someone to listen. I expect there was some hope somewhere that the audience would join them in their quest to have their issues addressed.

[RichVRichV]

61. If antagonizing isn't the purpose then there would be an attempt at dialog.

Bernie hasn't been closed to anyone. BLM could very easily reach out to him. He's been very receptive to their complaints.

[Jim Lane]

55. Do you also consider Westboro Baptist Church's protests to be wins? (n/t)

[RichVRichV]

59. Good ol' ends justifying the means.

All's fair as long as you win.


Protest 101 part 2 - Direct your protests at those suppressing you, not those that already support you.

[Katashi_itto]

62. Shouldn't you be doing more of your cutting edge Journalism like telling us what Whoopi thinks?

[stevenleser]

72. You think posting at DU is journalism? No wonder you are so mistaken about so many things. nt

[Katashi_itto]

97. It's the closest to journalism you will ever come. After all your the one

spinning a Radical Christian, Sarah Palin Supporter and another who is an embezzler as BLMers.

Yep your credible.

[stevenleser]

98. That's you're

Yeah, you have a lot to say about writing.

[Katashi_itto]

99. Lol, spelling corrections? That's the response? Someone is desperate.

[Katashi_itto]

100. Don't worry eventually Fox will pick you up for that prized Monday Morning 2am slot.

You can talk Whoopi and other edgy issues.

[4now]

63. We wouldn't be talking about BLM otherwise

If you don't want your event disrupted then spring for some security.
You can't run for POTUS on the cheap.

[Sunlei]

67. IMO,helps a groups visibility to spell out the full name please., Black Lives Matter.

of course discussion within the group, use of BLM is fine

[NCTraveler]

69. Agree with every word. nt.

[whatchamacallit]

71. I love it when centrists "let their freak flag fly"

and talk up radical activism (only when it helps Hillary of course).

[Oilwellian]

78. I wonder if he'll be equally as giddy...

when liberal Democrats decide to stay home on election day, if Hillary is the nominee? This OP is certainly proof that the conservative Dems are not our ally.

[cali]

75. Demanding that a Jew who lost most of his paternal family to the gas chambers and execution squads

of the Nazis, bow down, grovel and publicly apologize for unspecified actions against poc, is not legitimate protest. Every decent person is any hue has an obligation to, at the very least, recognize that. It's particularly noxious coming from a Christian fundamentalist. The name of their ugly protest was "bow down bernie". Please explain how you can support this, and how you can support Ms Johnson and her friends screaming, shoving, refusing to shake bernie's hand, refusing to cede the stage after 20 minutes and forcing an end to an event on social security and Medicare that people spent months working on. Please explain why stating that white liberals are worse racists than white conservatives.

[truebrit71]

92. I'll wager you hear nothing but crickets...

....

[cali]

95. oh, I know. it takes a bit of courage and decency to

respond

[HooptieWagon]

76. Hitching your wagon to fundy republican Palin supporters now?

Epic Fail.

[truebrit71]

93. Well he does go on Faux Spews alot...

...maybe some of the derp rubbed off?

[mythology]

77. They acted like petulant children

If this is their style of protest, they won't further their goals in the long term because acting like like an asshole doesn't exactly make people want to listen to you.

[bettyellen]

82. because OWS sitting in a park was sooooo mature, LOL. Listen to yourself. The patriarchal attitude

[Eleanors38]

79. Which BLM member? The embezzler or the Palin activist?

[kiva]

80. People are talking about it.

They're also talking about bubble nails, William Shatner's mosaic of Leonard Nimoy, Kylie Jenner's new car, and Prince Harry's trip to Africa to help fight poaching - and for a lot of people, the news about what BLM did fits into the same category of random facts that show up on their Facebook feed and are gone tomorrow.

For people who are more politically savvy, I don't see a positive side for BLM. The people who don't support Sanders see it primarily as a win for their side; his supporters see it as an unfair, possibly politically motivated, attack - neither of which increased respect for BLM. Accusations that Sanders and O'Malley are not being "humble enough" and hashtags like #bowdownbernie have nothing to do with saving lives, black or other...and there is the flaw. People aren't talking about police brutality or the anniversary of Michael Brown's death, they are talking about BLM's tactics.

The big win seems to be that Sanders added a platform on combating racial inequality to his website, which would be impressive if there was any evidence that he ever opposed racial equality...but he didn't, so it's sort of like saying "all Democratic candidates breath air" - hardly unexpected. The last time a Democratic candidate supporting civil rights was considered to be surprising was in 1948 when Hubert Humphrey inadvertently helped create the Dixiecrats.

As long as we're prognosticating, I'll guess that we'll be spending the next year talking about the economy, climate change, immigration, and civil rights, so pretty much the same things we would be talking about without this encounter.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

81. You're right, we will be talking about BLM in the election season ...

... but mostly about how to keep them off the stage when Democratic candidates are speaking.

I don't know if they advanced the visibility of BLM goals, but they certainly scored some ego points.

[Rex]

85. No doubt BLM is/will be as successful as OWS, it is a social movement brought about by

gross inequality and dedication to seeing justice served. There will always be rebellious factions that hurt said movements, intentionally or unintentionally. They all get rating and notice. Good or bad.

[truebrit71]

88. "White Supremacist Liberals"

That's who you are praising?

Disgusting.

[Lizzie Poppet]

106. Precisely.

Any protester that makes a statement like that harms their cause. Slanderous, insulting bullshit has a way of doing that. The cliche' "there's no such thing as bad publicity" is complete nonsense. Call me a "white supremacist," and I'll respond in only one way: "go fuck yourself."

[Vinca]

91. After reading hundreds of posts all over the Internet, I think my reaction is the prevalent one:

they alienated me - briefly - from their cause. Now I've decided this is a small group of possibly paid protesters. The cause is good, but someone is taking advantage of it to make Bernie look like a fool. That's what happens when you get the largest crowds and make strong gains in the polls.

[Peregrine Took]

101. Yes, now that I've seen them I find out that I don't like them and

I wish they would go away.
Far away.

[Chan790]

104. Leaning on 20 years experience as a professional activist, I disagree.

I understand why you think that Steven, but really...anything that damages the cause and doesn't first-hand-effect positive change is terminal. This damaged the cause, it achieved nothing. It reduced the BLM movement to something to be hated and ridiculed by the public for their showiness, extremism and conduct. It doesn't work as activism. (They've reduced their important cause to something on the level of PeTA. PeTA, despite what PeTA thinks, has no positive net impact for animal welfare.) It put them as individuals qua unskilled disruptors and agitants ahead of the cause...instead of being about systemic racism and blacks being disproportionately targeted for violence and death by law enforcement, BLM is now, in the public perception, about disrupting political campaigns. If I didn't know explicitly that they were not...I'd think these disruptors were paid RW astroturf for how effectively they have fatally-damaged the BLM cause. This isn't a win...it's probably the end of BLM as an effective movement. Black lives matter...but BLM no longer matters; they just marginalized themselves.

One of the best early lessons I learned in that field is "Shut up and do." If you're running your mouth and your conduct is not having an immediate positive impact for the organization...you're not an activist. You're a distraction and an asshole who reflects poorly on the issue at hand and makes real activists jobs harder because they now have to overcome your shitty conduct to be heard rather than shut-out. So...shut-up and do...stop talking and actually do something that does have a positive net impact. (This is explicitly exclusive of anything involving you talking, hence the "shut up" which is something akin to when your mouth is getting you into trouble, stop talking! Contribute in ways that are about advancing the movement, not your personal aggrandizement.)

I'm external to this...it's not my cause to lead because I believe in deferring to minority voices on causes that effect minorities (Which is to say that I'm aware of my privilege as someone who is perceived as being a straight white upper-class male)...but if it were my cause, I'd be stripping these women of leadership of the Seattle chapter and disavowing their conduct. With activists like that, I don't need an opposition.

[R B Garr]

107. Great points, steven. They've succeeded by any definition.

Exposure and publicity has resulted in positive action, so they have done well.

[stevenleser]

108. kick